Friends:
I've been pretty much a factory cartridge kinda guy for the last 50 plus years. In truth, I have been fairly easily satisfied with something from Wally world, especially if its on clearance (not too long ago, right?!!!) for most of my uses in standard rifles - with barrels from 22-26 inches. All good.
But times they are a changing, and I can see reloading as a realistic option, even if supplies are pretty durn lean.
My question is this: are there powders that burn more thoroughly in a short barrel than a long one? For example, A couple years ago I had JES rebore a .243W to .358 Winchester, and slice the barrel down to 18 1/2 inches. Absolutely love it. My nickname for it is "Steady Eddy" - big bullet moving about 23-2400FPS. Devastating..and checks the humane (DRT) box for me. But the factory Hornady's I bought are prolly designed for a 22" - 24" barrel.
But I have other rifles with short barrels as well. If we are going "custom made" by reloading, can we eliminate belchfire situations where powder is still being burned several feet out from the muzzle when a round is touched off, simply by going to a faster burning powder.
Years ago I read JOC observe that a certain load of IMR 4064 in .30-06 in a 165 grainer produces "no great muzzle flash" and a "farly light report". My thinking is, why not pursue this for short barreled rifles, by modulating the powder type?
And no, I'm not limp wristed about recoil etc, and use full throated factory rounds in medium and large caliber magnum rounds, without concern. Bottom line: the self-made loads dont have to be reduced. That said I'm also not all about wringing the last few FPS out of anything, and think Shaman with his 95% rule of max, is probably highly prescient. Think steady eddy. JB would probably call me a "medium medium" kinda guy.
Which powders to consider? Does caliber really matter? If yes, lets throw out the hypotheticals of .270, 30-06, .338WM and .375 (Ruger or H&H).
Gentlemen: Popcorn, anyone? Fire away!
I like my 16inch barrel 30/06 to flash so I use AR2209 (IMR4350 equivalent) - adds visual to the sound effects.
This interests me as well. I know the 300 blackout was designed for short barrel use, with the optimum barrel length being around 9 inches iirc. I also know some powders produce less flash in certain loads. Not an area pf expertise here, and interested in more knowledge on it.
I am interested in this as well. I've been shooting reloads only in some of my rifles for 30 years; 30-378 Weatherby, 338-378 Weatherby, 300 Baer, and lately a 338 Lapua Magnum. I shoot factory loads only in 308 Win and 223 & any handgun cartridges. I have a couple of SBRs in 223 that are obnoxiously loud and blinding in low light so I am considering handloading 223 for those.
Isn't this getting towards the realm of reduced loads? ie faster powders (with lighter loads) possibally heading towards fillers? The bare minimum powder charge (by weight) I think would be with Trailboss.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
Barrel length does not affect powder choice. The cartridge and bullet affect powder choice
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
No it will not
Shorter barrel=lower velocity. There ain't no way around it.
The issue is not lower velocity, its muzzle blast. The question is what powders to consider.
Well, maybe SSC powders are a natural fit for short barrels.
The issue is not lower velocity, its muzzle blast. The question is what powders to consider.
I think the volume of the gas the exits the muzzle after the barrel is pretty much going to determine the noise level, and the volume of the powder (as determined by weight of charge) will pretty much determine the amount of gas---and therefore the noise level. I'd try lesser charges of faster burning powders to reduce muzzle blast.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
No it will not
Blu Cs;
Good evening to you sir and hopefully it's still early enough that I'm able to get away with a Happy New Year as well.
As has been already posted, that hasn't been our experience - that is we'll load whatever powder gives peak performance in that cartridge and bullet combination and not pay too, too much attention to burn rate.
Perhaps a few quick examples are okay and I'll start with a 788 carbine in .308 which has an 18½" barrel. With bullet weight from 125gr to 165gr powders in the WW748, IMR 4064 burn rate gave better results for accuracy and velocity than say IMR3031.
In a 21" .30-06, again the best results for accuracy and speed with either WW760 or IMR4350 - better for sure than IMR3031, 4064 or H4895.
Lastly in a 20" 6.5x55 and a 21" 6.5x55, we've seen best results with RL19, VV560, IMR or H4831 have yielded best results.
Hopefully that was useful for you or someone out there tonight. All the very best to all in 2021.
Dwayne
It's been my (limited) experience that the powder that gives the highest velocity in a 22-24" length barrel will generally be the same powder that gives the highest velocity in a shorter 16-18" barrel.
It's my understanding that essentially all the powder that's going to burn will be burned within the first few inches in front of the chamber.
As the powder is burned it is converted to a gas. This gas then burns and expands until the available oxygen inside the barrel is consumed.
The fireball at the muzzle is the result of powder gasses reigniting as they come in contact with the atmosphere (oxygen), not powder continuing to burn and after exiting the barrel.
There may be a few granules of powder that didn't burn in the barrel but they're generally not a significant contributor to the fireball.
I think it might be limited territory - less powder means less blast but faster powder means earlier pressure peak and I think the pressure will limit any attempt to try and regain lost velocity from a shorter barrel.
A modulated burn rate powder doesn't exist yet.
It's been my (limited) experience that the powder that gives the highest velocity in a 22-24" length barrel will generally be the same powder that gives the highest velocity in a shorter 16-18" barrel.
It's my understanding that essentially all the powder that's going to burn will be burned within the first few inches in front of the chamber.
As the powder is burned it is converted to a gas. This gas then burns and expands until the available oxygen inside the barrel is consumed.
The fireball at the muzzle is the result of powder gasses reigniting as they come in contact with the atmosphere (oxygen), not powder continuing to burn and after exiting the barrel.
There may be a few granules of powder that didn't burn in the barrel but they're generally not a significant contributor to the fireball.
Exactly
Please folks. For the purpose of this thread my interest is not best velocity or performance, or optimum anything, it is muzzle blast.
If, for example, that means a .270 W bullet is launched at a lower speed than normal....well OK (so long as it will humanely dispatch a deer).
If you are a reloader who has something to offer in that department, on a firsthand basis, I'm all ears.
Thanks in advance
Blu Cs;
Sorry I misunderstood the question then sir.
For me it'd be either IMR or H4895 that gave the best results with less than top end loads.
That's where I'd start if less blast was the goal.
Hope that helped and good luck.
Dwayne
Dwayne:
I have to say your responses to all questions posed on the fire are generally so well put that it matters little what the original question was.
That said, I thank you for this one which seems absolutely on point to my original question.
Do you have any insight on 4064 or other slightly faster burning powders than the 4895's?
Warm regards from Atlanta, as I sit before a flickering hearth (red oak and hickory mix) with dog at my feet, and I trust you and yours are staying warm and content in your corner of the world.
From folks who should know
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/re...eled-rifle-require-different-reload-dataDOES MY SHORTER BARRELED RIFLE REQUIRE DIFFERENT RELOAD DATA?
We often get this question. In asking, the customer is unsure if the different barrel length will necessitate a loading data change in the powder chosen. Let’s preface the answer with a quick guide on testing data.
All our data is tested for Pressure and Velocity with instrumented equipment as established by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI). The dimensions of the test equipment are established by SAAMI, both internal (such as chamber) and external such as barrel length. The barrel length is set based upon most popular usage. Rifle calibers are set at 24 inch barrels. Handgun calibers are set based upon the most common use at the time, i.e. a 45 Auto barrel is based upon the barrel length of a 1911, and a 38 Special barrel based upon a standard police issue revolver.
The first thing to remember is that the chamber dimension does not change based upon application. A 223 Remington chamber is the same whether the gun it is in is a handgun or a rifle. The chamber dimension determines the pressure. So, the pressure is the same when fired in that chamber in a rifle or a handgun. The barrel length has no impact on the chamber pressure and hence the reloading data (powder charge and pressure).
The length of the barrel will change the actual velocity you observe. In general as the barrel gets shorter than standard the velocity will lower, and as the barrel gets longer than standard the velocity will increase. This does not change the reload data (powder charge and pressure), just the velocity.
Please note that there is no magic number for how much velocity is lost or gained by changing barrel length. This is because cartridges go from big to small and use varying amounts of different burn speed propellants. The only way to know for sure what the effect is with your different barrel length is to shoot over a chronograph.
So, the quick answer to the question is that the different barrel length will not change the reload data but it will impact the velocity you get.
From folks who should know
https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/re...eled-rifle-require-different-reload-dataDOES MY SHORTER BARRELED RIFLE REQUIRE DIFFERENT RELOAD DATA?
We often get this question. In asking, the customer is unsure if the different barrel length will necessitate a loading data change in the powder chosen. Let’s preface the answer with a quick guide on testing data.
All our data is tested for Pressure and Velocity with instrumented equipment as established by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI). The dimensions of the test equipment are established by SAAMI, both internal (such as chamber) and external such as barrel length. The barrel length is set based upon most popular usage. Rifle calibers are set at 24 inch barrels. Handgun calibers are set based upon the most common use at the time, i.e. a 45 Auto barrel is based upon the barrel length of a 1911, and a 38 Special barrel based upon a standard police issue revolver.
The first thing to remember is that the chamber dimension does not change based upon application. A 223 Remington chamber is the same whether the gun it is in is a handgun or a rifle. The chamber dimension determines the pressure. So, the pressure is the same when fired in that chamber in a rifle or a handgun. The barrel length has no impact on the chamber pressure and hence the reloading data (powder charge and pressure).
The length of the barrel will change the actual velocity you observe. In general as the barrel gets shorter than standard the velocity will lower, and as the barrel gets longer than standard the velocity will increase. This does not change the reload data (powder charge and pressure), just the velocity.
Please note that there is no magic number for how much velocity is lost or gained by changing barrel length. This is because cartridges go from big to small and use varying amounts of different burn speed propellants. The only way to know for sure what the effect is with your different barrel length is to shoot over a chronograph.
So, the quick answer to the question is that the different barrel length will not change the reload data but it will impact the velocity you get.
All wonderful points if the issue is velocity, or chamber pressure, or the price of tea in China, none of which apply. The question asked is about muzzle blast.
Blu Cs;
Thanks for the reply and for the kind words again sir, I do appreciate them.
There is another powder that John Barsness has written about that will work like the H4895 and IMR4895 in that it's not upset burning at less than optimum pressure.
Most of the modern powders seem happiest when burning at peak pressure which will also give the most muzzle blast. The 4895s were okay burning at less than top end pressure so should and do give less blast.
I'll do some research in my library tomorrow and see what I can find and will drop you a line if or when I do.
We've shot IMR 4064 in the .308, the '06 and the 6.5Swede as well as the .30-30, but it was so long ago I can't comment intelligently on the muzzle blast. Though I don't recall it being any less than say IMR 3031.
I have fooled with reduced loads in a couple cartridges with the 4895s and there was less recoil and blast with them for sure. Interestingly, one was the .308 Norma Mag with 165gr bullets and it made a really nice shooting '06 with it.
Again, I'll take a look as there are more, I'm just not remembering where I put that bit of information right now. Sorry.
Dwayne
edit to add;
https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/h4895-reduced-rifle-loads.pdf
Sorry. I, too, misunderstood your question.
Really can't offer anything.
Friends:
I've been pretty much a factory cartridge kinda guy for the last 50 plus years. In truth, I have been fairly easily satisfied with something from Wally world, especially if its on clearance (not too long ago, right?!!!) for most of my uses in standard rifles - with barrels from 22-26 inches. All good.
But times they are a changing, and I can see reloading as a realistic option, even if supplies are pretty durn lean.
My question is this: are there powders that burn more thoroughly in a short barrel than a long one? For example, A couple years ago I had JES rebore a .243W to .358 Winchester, and slice the barrel down to 18 1/2 inches. Absolutely love it. My nickname for it is "Steady Eddy" - big bullet moving about 23-2400FPS. Devastating..and checks the humane (DRT) box for me. But the factory Hornady's I bought are prolly designed for a 22" - 24" barrel.
But I have other rifles with short barrels as well. If we are going "custom made" by reloading, can we eliminate belchfire situations where powder is still being burned several feet out from the muzzle when a round is touched off, simply by going to a faster burning powder.
Years ago I read JOC observe that a certain load of IMR 4064 in .30-06 in a 165 grainer produces "no great muzzle flash" and a "farly light report". My thinking is, why not pursue this for short barreled rifles, by modulating the powder type?
And no, I'm not limp wristed about recoil etc, and use full throated factory rounds in medium and large caliber magnum rounds, without concern. Bottom line: the self-made loads dont have to be reduced. That said I'm also not all about wringing the last few FPS out of anything, and think Shaman with his 95% rule of max, is probably highly prescient. Think steady eddy. JB would probably call me a "medium medium" kinda guy.
Which powders to consider? Does caliber really matter? If yes, lets throw out the hypotheticals of .270, 30-06, .338WM and .375 (Ruger or H&H).
Gentlemen: Popcorn, anyone? Fire away!
........................Regardless of cartridge, you load the same way for a shorter barrel as you would for the longer 22", 23" , 24" or 26" barrels. Book listings of slower burning powders that show higher velocities from longer tubes (as an example RL17 in a 300 WSM) also will give higher velocities from the shorter tubes as well. Where velocities are concerned on average, figure about a 15-20 up to maybe a 25-30 fps decrease for every inch of shorter barrel length. In other words from my chrony experience using 2 other buds 300 WSM rifles a few years back and hundreds of rounds for the experiment, my shorty 300 WSM chrony 'd 95.5% the velocities of the longer 24" barreIed 300 WSMs using the same identical handloads. A 4.5% average velocity loss. I own a shorty 16.5" tubed 300 WSM Ruger Frontier (nicknamed MIGHTY MOUSE) which ballistically is a 24-26" barreled 30-06.......As far as which powders burn more efficiently from the shorter tubes? I say do not worry about that at all. Instead, your concern and focus should be what powders offer the best accuracy without sacrificing much if any in the velocity dept from the shorter barrel.....At the range firing max loadings from my Frontier, I notice no noticeable muzzle flash during day light hours. Instead, there is NOISE, a very loud report which of course is muffled with excellent hearing protection. I also own a 375 Ruger Alaskan with a 20" barrel. Aside from powder differences, I do nothing different with my 375 Ruger than with my 300 WSM. The same principles apply......Look in your reloading books and choose your powders accordingly based on what you wish to do based on the velocities you are looking for and just let the noise, burn efficiency and any potential muzzle flash fall by the wayside. If you wish for the lower velocities then use the faster burning powders.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
No it will not
Not always true. Depends on how much barrel you are lopping off.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
No it will not
Not always true. Depends on how much barrel you are lopping off.
Are you sure about that? That would imply that in some cases a longer barrel may actually be slowing a bullet down. Doesn't sound right.
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters
Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!
H4895 will be the powder of choice for cartridges with a bore ratio similar to 7.62 NATO and 30-06. It has been tested by the best. There is a hint in there.
W748, W760 and other ball powders with similar burn rates.
Another hint. Gas ports are about mid barrel length in military arms.
Mid to heavy bullets within the particular cartridge would help also.
Bore ratio of the .243 Winchester ? You might have to live with what you got.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
No it will not
Correct, the powder that produces the highest velocity in a longer barrel will also produce the highest velocity in a shorter barrel.
It's been my (limited) experience that the powder that gives the highest velocity in a 22-24" length barrel will generally be the same powder that gives the highest velocity in a shorter 16-18" barrel.
It's my understanding that essentially all the powder that's going to burn will be burned within the first few inches in front of the chamber.
As the powder is burned it is converted to a gas. This gas then burns and expands until the available oxygen inside the barrel is consumed.
The fireball at the muzzle is the result of powder gasses reigniting as they come in contact with the atmosphere (oxygen), not powder continuing to burn and after exiting the barrel.
There may be a few granules of powder that didn't burn in the barrel but they're generally not a significant contributor to the fireball.
Perfect, absolutely perfect explanation.
Thanks
To add to MickeyD's absolutely correct explanation, muzzle blast is not related to powder type. It is a function of remaining pressure at the muzzle. Peak pressure is achieved generally within a few inches of the chamber - although burn rate does affect this, it always happens quite soon after the bullet leaves the case mouth.
After that moment of peak pressure, the pressure decreases as the swept volume of the bore increases. An analogy being the volume change as a piston moves down a bore. As long as the pressure is high enough, the bullet will keep accelerating. However, in a long enough barrel, pressure would drop to a level that the bullet would begin to lose velocity and eventually come to a stop due to friction.
Muzzle blast, however, is mostly a function of barrel length. The shorter the barrel, the higher the remaining pressure when the bullet clears the muzzle, and thus the louder the blast. Less time and distance to accelerate is also why velocities are lower from a shorter barrel. But as this is about blast, the bottom line is that shorter means louder.
My question is this: are there powders that burn more thoroughly in a short barrel than a long one?
can we eliminate belchfire situations where powder is still being burned several feet out from the muzzle when a round is touched off, simply by going to a faster burning powder.
The assumption you offered in these two separate questions are the main reason you are not getting the simple answer you seek.
Your first question assumes that Muzzle flash is caused by unburned powder. As MickeyD has so eloquently explained to you, this is simply not true.
Your second question incorrectly assumes the same, that unburned powder is the cause of muzzle flash. You also incorrectly assume that shorter barrels produce more muzzle flas because the powder has less time to burn.
Those here have tried answer your question by first pointing out that your assumption as to the cause of MF are incorrect.
To supply you with a simple explanation as to how to reduce muzzle flash you must first be educated on what causes it, it Ain’t Unburned Powder and it Ain’t the short barrel.
Now if you wish to find out which powders produce less muzzle flash, first forget the barrel length and second lose the myth that it is caused by unburned powder.
Barrel length does not affect powder choice. The cartridge and bullet affect powder choice
Correct.
To add to MickeyD's absolutely correct explanation, muzzle blast is not related to powder type. It is a function of remaining pressure at the muzzle. Peak pressure is achieved generally within a few inches of the chamber - although burn rate does affect this, it always happens quite soon after the bullet leaves the case mouth.
After that moment of peak pressure, the pressure decreases as the swept volume of the bore increases. An analogy being the volume change as a piston moves down a bore. As long as the pressure is high enough, the bullet will keep accelerating. However, in a long enough barrel, pressure would drop to a level that the bullet would begin to lose velocity and eventually come to a stop due to friction.
Muzzle blast, however, is mostly a function of barrel length. The shorter the barrel, the higher the remaining pressure when the bullet clears the muzzle, and thus the louder the blast. Less time and distance to accelerate is also why velocities are lower from a shorter barrel. But as this is about blast, the bottom line is that shorter means louder.
Correct.
No free lunch.
The issue is not lower velocity, its muzzle blast. The question is what powders to consider.
Less powder less blast. Someone mentioned it IMR3031 or maybe even H335 or faster yet AA2015. But, chamber pressure may be an issue. You will definitely get less bullet speed but if less blast is your target then less powder.
kwg
I thought I said that. I guess maybe I didn't.
Why the concern with MF, unless one is shooting at night?
Why the concern with MF, unless one is shooting at night?
Not concern is blast. Noise, not flash.
There is some correlation between flash and blast. Flash is caused by flammable but unburned gasses in the cloud that forms after muzzle exit. When those gasses mix with new oxygen in the atmosphere, they can spontaneously ignite in a near-explosive way, producing an additional shock wave. Powders with a flash suppressant help control this.
But the major cause of high muzzle blast is simply the release of high pressure, like popping a cork. At 10,000 psi or more.
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters
Thanks Castle_Rock. As many of the responses have reminded me, adding an inch or two to an already long barrel will increase my velocity without having to increase the powder charge (338 Lapua, 338-378, 30-378)...28" to 30" to 32" barrel will increase the velocity. I have tested this myself. I'll have to revise my query to how do I reduce muzzle blast in very short barreled 223 rifles such as one I have that is classified as an AR pistol. My AR pistol has a 7.5" barrel. Muzzle blast and the fireball in low light are obnoxious and blinding respectively. I have to agree with those that have observed that the velocity lost can only be recovered by a longer barrel.
In my limited experience with a 300 savage and LVR powder got more velocity than H 4895 . With shorter barrels.
But I never really did a complete expierienent comparing loss of velocity between standard and shorter barrels.
But I don't know 🤷♀️ If LVR can be used in your listed calibers.
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters
Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!
And an excellent recommendation for the circumstances. Stick powders tend to be less "blasty" than ball powders out off short barrels.
Lots of good explanations above - is any of this explicit stuff transferable to anatomy - that is - length of esophagus and resulting belch blast, length of lower intestine and - - -, etc.?
Or, do the ingredients rule? Please don't misunderstand the specificity of the inquiry.
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters
Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!
And an excellent recommendation for the circumstances. Stick powders tend to be less "blasty" than ball powders out off short barrels.
antelope sniper;
Good morning to you sir, I hope that this first Sunday of the year finds you and yours well.
That's an interesting observation and if I think about it I'd have to agree with it, but that's based on the 4895s mostly, though as mentioned I've burned a fair bit of IMR3031 and IMR4064 and can't recall them being quite as well "mild mannered" for lack of a more scientific term.
There's likely some science in the basic makeup of the powders as well and if you or some educated individual cares to share, I'd be interested in reading it.
All the best to you all in 2021 sir.
Dwayne
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...
This
No it will not
Not always true. Depends on how much barrel you are lopping off.
Are you sure about that? That would imply that in some cases a longer barrel may actually be slowing a bullet down. Doesn't sound right.
Rocky provided a good explanation of some of the physics, maybe that's because he's a rocket scientist, but let me expand a bit.
Changing the burn rate changes the shape of the pressure curve. If we load two different powders to the same maximum pressure, both curves will have the same maximum amplitude, but changing the burn rate change the shape of the curve. These curves are not nice sin curves, but something like this, with the red line representing pressure and the blue line representing velocity:
[img]
https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/pressure-curves.70991/#lg=thread-70991&slide=0[/img]
Looking at the above graph, think of the area under the red line as the amount of work performed against the bullet over a given length of barrel. As we increase the powder burn rate, the area under the curve shifts to the left. In other words, more of the work that adds velocity to the bullet is performed in the front part of the barrel. With a slower burning powder, the height of the pressure curve doesn't tapper off as quickly, and longer barrels are able to take advantage of this relative pressure differential for a longer time than shorter barrels.
Additionally, certain cartridge geometries benefit more from a longer barrel/slower powder dynamic. In general, the more over bore a cartridge, the more additional you will notice the differences in the impact of barrel length in both velocity increase due to added barrel length and changes in optimum powder choice relative to barrel length, but again, these are generalities.
With all that said, we must recognize the practical truth behind the claim that barrel length makes no difference in relative velocity potential of different powders. In the context of hunting length barrels, say 20 to 26" inches in length, this is mostly true. At the theoretical level differences do exist, but for the average reloaded, these will be masked by margin of error inherent in the small sample sizes he chronographs.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.
It has repeatedly been shown that the same powder which produces maximum velocity in a 26 inch barrel will also produce the highest velocity in a carbine barrel. Albeit with excessive noise and muzzle blast.
As to the OP, I have had good luck using IMR 3031 in a carbine length 30-06 with 165 gr ballistic tips.
H4831 produced higher velocities in rifle and carbine barrel lengths. But IMR 3031 produced better accuracy in the carbine.
'taint the velocity that counts - it's the accuracy. My 17 inch barreled '06 does just fine with factory loads. I have no doubt it also will if I load up some 4350 reloads.
If you can't kill something at say 2250, 2300 ain't gonna help. I have personally never found the need (want yes, maybe) for a chronograph, and I have yet to ever use one.
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, & the amount that you can compensate for a short barrel with powder is pretty limited.....................
But have at & knock yourself out testing & re-testing if that's your gig.
MM
I think the Lever lotion marketing ploy was improved performance with carbines.
I have been told the flagship bullet the FTX has more bearing surface to increase pressure?
But I totally agree we are talking about a very small difference perhaps.
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters
Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!
And an excellent recommendation for the circumstances. Stick powders tend to be less "blasty" than ball powders out off short barrels.
antelope sniper;
Good morning to you sir, I hope that this first Sunday of the year finds you and yours well.
That's an interesting observation and if I think about it I'd have to agree with it, but that's based on the 4895s mostly, though as mentioned I've burned a fair bit of IMR3031 and IMR4064 and can't recall them being quite as well "mild mannered" for lack of a more scientific term.
There's likely some science in the basic makeup of the powders as well and if you or some educated individual cares to share, I'd be interested in reading it.
All the best to you all in 2021 sir.
Dwayne
Good Morning Dwayne. Happy New Years to you as well. I hope your 2021 is more prosperous than 2020.
I based my comments on "blastly" powders primarily on personal experience. My first hunting rifle was a Winchester Model 70a in .270, with a 22" barrel. Since we lived in the country and could shoot right out the back door, I poured a good number of powders through that rifle. The ball powders seemed to produce the most blast, especially as it relates to the size of the fireball. At dusk when I'd tough it off with a load of W760 or W785, all you could see through the scope was fire. They made for great 4th of July loads.
As for the actual chemistry behind this, I'm sure we have some real chemist here who can expand upon my crude understanding of the differences between the stick and double based ball powders. Both contain nitrocellulose, but double based powders also contain nitroglycerin, which tends to make them burn hotter, dirtier, and IMO blastyer.
Although this may be one relevant variable, Quickload has a function where it provides muzzle pressure when the bullet exits, which is a nice scientific measure of blastyness. When we take a look at the data, powder burn rate appears to be the more significant variable, with the faster powders being more mild to the ears in shorter barrels, which matches with your experience with the 4895's being more mild to the ears than the 4064's.
Since the OP referenced the 165gr bullets in a short barreled 30.06 I used that for my QL example.
Colum 8 below is pressure at the muzzle.
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 165, Nosler PART SP 16330
Useable Case Capaci: 61.996 grain H2O = 4.025 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 59000 psi, or 406 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
56 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C 110.0 67.6 4.38 2920 98.8 58422 13980 0.997 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T 99.5 59.7 3.87 2872 99.9 59000 12568 0.995 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP *C 110.0 65.6 4.25 2864 96.0 57460 13582 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T 104.4 58.1 3.77 2854 99.3 59000 12475 0.992 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 110.0 64.6 4.18 2827 92.3 58774 12996 0.994 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 104.2 61.5 3.99 2824 97.5 59000 12508 1.004 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 98.4 59.5 3.85 2816 96.7 59000 12455 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 98.4 59.5 3.85 2816 96.7 59000 12455 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C 103.8 58.7 3.80 2814 98.9 59000 12182 1.010 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 103.3 59.0 3.82 2813 98.9 59000 12213 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C 100.7 58.8 3.81 2811 98.7 59000 12286 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C 108.7 62.1 4.02 2811 94.7 59000 12547 1.000 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C 93.9 58.5 3.79 2809 99.0 59000 12072 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon LVR 101.0 57.7 3.74 2806 98.4 59000 12085 1.007 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 107.7 61.2 3.97 2803 94.3 59000 12412 0.995 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 109.0 59.6 3.86 2798 99.0 59000 11958 1.018 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game 93.7 57.1 3.70 2794 99.6 59000 11689 1.010 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 106.7 59.0 3.82 2790 99.8 59000 11380 1.006 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 *C 110.0 64.2 4.16 2789 90.8 54722 13164 1.031 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 93.3 53.3 3.45 2788 99.7 59000 11694 1.019 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 110.0 63.5 4.12 2788 91.7 57338 12705 1.005 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 *C 102.9 60.7 3.94 2786 94.3 59000 12175 1.001 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C 94.1 53.8 3.48 2779 99.4 59000 11622 1.019 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C 94.5 54.0 3.50 2778 99.6 59000 11559 1.020 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 89.0 55.5 3.60 2775 100.0 59000 11420 1.022 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 86.5 53.2 3.45 2773 100.0 59000 11054 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 96.1 55.5 3.60 2773 99.9 59000 11438 1.031 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C 110.0 63.5 4.12 2771 93.4 53898 12887 1.040 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T 109.4 63.2 4.10 2768 91.7 59000 12062 0.999 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 95.4 55.7 3.61 2766 98.5 59000 11661 1.022 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 96.0 54.0 3.50 2766 99.6 59000 11220 1.004 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 90.7 51.8 3.36 2764 99.8 59000 11295 1.019 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar 89.2 54.5 3.53 2764 99.6 59000 11357 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 91.0 52.0 3.37 2761 99.6 59000 11331 1.018 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 106.8 64.4 4.17 2761 94.3 59000 11840 1.003 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070 102.9 58.2 3.77 2760 96.8 59000 11786 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World SW4350 102.9 58.2 3.77 2760 96.8 59000 11786 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 93.6 50.0 3.24 2759 100.0 59000 10491 1.020 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 110.0 66.8 4.33 2758 88.4 53704 12997 1.044 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 6,5 StaBall *T*C 101.7 62.5 4.05 2757 99.9 59000 11048 1.003 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum 110.0 68.5 4.44 2756 94.0 55608 12427 1.022 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 *T 105.5 59.0 3.82 2754 95.8 59000 11637 1.008 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 103.6 58.9 3.81 2754 96.0 59000 11626 1.008 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6 91.0 53.6 3.47 2749 100.0 59000 10750 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle 91.0 53.6 3.47 2749 100.0 59000 10750 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 89.0 53.6 3.47 2749 100.0 59000 10750 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 95.8 53.5 3.47 2746 100.0 59000 10741 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T 96.6 53.4 3.46 2743 99.3 59000 11141 1.009 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 96.3 53.4 3.46 2743 99.3 59000 11141 1.009 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Long Rifle 101.5 56.7 3.68 2742 97.9 59000 11441 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065 101.5 56.7 3.68 2742 97.9 59000 11441 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C 87.6 50.3 3.26 2741 100.0 59000 10829 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062 95.0 52.8 3.42 2740 100.0 59000 10886 1.027 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Precision 95.0 52.8 3.42 2740 100.0 59000 10886 1.027 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C 89.1 54.9 3.56 2738 98.1 59000 11313 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 97.2 52.5 3.40 2738 99.4 59000 10979 1.014 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T 98.7 55.7 3.61 2737 96.5 59000 11407 1.009 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR 89.5 51.1 3.31 2733 100.0 59000 10725 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 97.0 56.2 3.64 2733 95.9 59000 11452 1.020 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 82.5 51.5 3.33 2730 100.0 59000 10449 1.019 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C 92.1 51.5 3.34 2730 100.0 59000 10814 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C 93.7 54.1 3.51 2728 100.0 59000 10579 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C 91.4 51.4 3.33 2728 100.0 59000 10437 1.024 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 89.2 51.7 3.35 2728 98.8 59000 10997 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T 110.0 61.2 3.96 2727 92.0 58289 11649 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 *C 103.3 55.7 3.61 2727 100.0 59000 10636 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 90.1 50.4 3.26 2726 100.0 59000 10318 1.057 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T 110.0 61.5 3.99 2723 99.0 49953 12226 1.077
ADI AR 2219 82.1 48.5 3.14 2723 100.0 59000 10148 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 87.4 48.5 3.14 2723 100.0 59000 10148 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C 86.9 53.0 3.43 2719 99.5 59000 10793 1.018 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 85.1 52.4 3.39 2718 100.0 59000 10486 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5 85.4 52.4 3.39 2718 100.0 59000 10486 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 85.0 52.6 3.41 2716 99.9 59000 10596 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T 97.7 53.5 3.47 2714 96.6 59000 11056 1.012 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 *C 98.2 53.9 3.49 2713 100.0 59000 10418 1.019 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T 88.9 49.1 3.18 2711 100.0 59000 9705 1.026 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4 84.0 51.5 3.33 2709 100.0 59000 10333 1.032 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus 84.0 51.5 3.33 2709 100.0 59000 10333 1.032 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 83.4 49.2 3.19 2704 100.0 59000 10256 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 *C 99.6 51.6 3.34 2703 100.0 59000 9830 1.031 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060 91.4 50.8 3.29 2702 99.6 59000 10485 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle 83.8 51.0 3.31 2700 99.9 59000 10325 1.018 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 110.0 62.9 4.07 2697 96.3 53240 11765 1.075 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 88.6 49.9 3.23 2696 100.0 59000 10197 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 81.6 49.7 3.22 2696 100.0 59000 10170 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12 87.3 50.9 3.30 2694 100.0 59000 9887 1.020 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 90.7 51.3 3.32 2692 99.8 59000 10323 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 96.9 57.8 3.74 2687 95.7 59000 10789 1.023 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 110.0 62.2 4.03 2683 91.6 49046 12473 1.088
Alliant Reloder-10x *C 84.9 45.8 2.97 2676 100.0 59000 9538 1.031 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C 81.2 49.2 3.19 2673 100.0 59000 9988 1.017 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015 87.4 47.8 3.10 2668 100.0 59000 9467 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 *T 110.0 61.1 3.96 2657 89.5 52049 11564 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 74.2 44.3 2.87 2654 100.0 59000 9290 1.015 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C 81.3 45.5 2.95 2653 100.0 59000 9300 1.045 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 82.3 44.2 2.86 2651 100.0 59000 9230 1.008 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C 93.1 48.7 3.16 2650 100.0 59000 9182 1.022 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 84.6 43.4 2.81 2639 100.0 59000 8913 1.013 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 110.0 61.1 3.96 2636 88.4 47900 12094 1.094
Vihtavuori N165 *C 110.0 62.2 4.03 2635 93.1 50686 11280 1.078
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle 73.0 39.0 2.53 2635 100.0 59000 9073 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 71.4 39.0 2.53 2635 100.0 59000 9073 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060 73.0 39.0 2.53 2635 100.0 59000 9073 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C 87.8 46.9 3.04 2634 100.0 59000 9048 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 110.0 65.3 4.23 2630 88.4 50034 11888 1.074
Alliant Reloder-7 80.0 44.2 2.87 2629 100.0 59000 8982 1.030 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 *C 110.0 60.3 3.91 2627 90.9 52097 11052 1.066 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 80.2 42.8 2.78 2618 100.0 59000 8799 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 *C 110.0 62.5 4.05 2613 94.0 44316 12414 1.136
Vihtavuori N565 *C 110.0 64.6 4.18 2599 87.5 44467 12268 1.147
Hodgdon H4227 77.0 40.3 2.61 2584 100.0 59000 8357 1.020 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 76.8 40.1 2.60 2581 100.0 59000 8333 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C 82.5 43.0 2.79 2572 100.0 59000 8247 1.036 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C 78.1 41.5 2.69 2572 100.0 59000 8255 1.034 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S053 77.6 39.8 2.58 2539 100.0 59000 7970 1.033 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S071 110.0 59.4 3.85 2520 93.3 43104 11098 1.187
IMR 7977 Enduron *C*T 110.0 62.2 4.03 2520 80.0 51150 10086 1.081 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 *C 110.0 62.9 4.07 2499 85.5 39554 11877 1.205
ADI AR 2205 73.6 40.0 2.59 2488 100.0 59000 7577 1.028 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 *C 73.2 35.5 2.30 2462 100.0 59000 7294 1.046 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2217 110.0 62.2 4.03 2454 83.9 41387 10945 1.176
Hodgdon H1000 *T 110.0 62.2 4.03 2454 83.9 41387 10945 1.176
Vihtavuori N570 *C 110.0 66.3 4.30 2449 75.7 38838 11788 1.216
Hodgdon Retumbo 110.0 63.2 4.10 2368 84.0 35488 11295 1.267
ADI AR 2225 110.0 63.2 4.10 2368 84.0 35488 11295 1.267
Shooters World BMG 110.0 67.6 4.38 2364 72.3 41210 9746 1.194
Lovex D100 110.0 67.6 4.38 2364 72.3 41210 9746 1.194
Alliant Reloder-33 *C 110.0 68.2 4.42 2363 73.6 36317 11183 1.258
Vihtavuori N170 *C 110.0 62.2 4.03 2319 75.5 36364 9897 1.272
Vihtavuori 24N41 *C 110.0 67.0 4.34 2314 67.7 38424 9769 1.231
Accurate LRT 110.0 66.8 4.33 2281 65.1 36232 9839 1.265
ADI AR 2218 110.0 67.0 4.34 2279 66.5 36036 10177 1.265
ADI AP 100 71.9 28.4 1.84 2270 100.0 59000 5939 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217 *C 110.0 61.9 4.01 2250 79.2 30073 10836 1.360
IMR 8133 Enduron *C*T 110.0 61.5 3.99 2246 76.7 30655 10465 1.349
Hodgdon H870 110.0 64.9 4.21 2224 71.5 30991 10269 1.346
Alliant HERCO 71.5 25.6 1.66 2207 100.0 59000 5654 1.076 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50 *C 110.0 68.0 4.41 2139 65.7 27798 10006 1.411
Lovex S035 70.5 25.1 1.62 2137 100.0 59000 5077 1.078 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG 110.0 63.8 4.14 2136 59.2 30969 8732 1.351
Hodgdon US 869 110.0 67.0 4.34 2127 62.4 30687 8776 1.360
Lovex D013 72.7 21.7 1.41 2112 100.0 59000 5138 1.085 ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Sparta 100 72.7 21.7 1.41 2112 100.0 59000 5138 1.085 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Nitro 100 72.7 21.7 1.41 2112 100.0 59000 5138 1.085 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant GREEN DOT 72.5 23.1 1.50 2098 100.0 59000 5011 1.090 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RED DOT 77.5 22.0 1.43 2088 100.0 59000 4985 1.077 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S015 73.3 23.2 1.50 2085 100.0 59000 4916 1.089 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Solo 1000 73.3 23.2 1.50 2085 100.0 59000 4916 1.089 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AS 30 76.9 22.7 1.47 2066 100.0 59000 4821 1.084 ! Near Maximum !
Norma R1 81.3 23.5 1.52 2047 100.0 59000 4715 1.086 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Clays 80.7 22.1 1.43 2041 100.0 59000 4687 1.076 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 8700 110.0 65.6 4.25 2030 62.5 27614 8264 1.421
Vihtavuori 20N29 *C 110.0 67.6 4.38 1995 59.3 26041 8220 1.457
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star 96.0 27.4 1.77 1978 100.0 59000 4204 1.113 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AS 25 BP 110.0 21.2 1.37 1727 100.0 39589 3373 1.324
IMR TrailBoss 110.0 21.2 1.37 1727 100.0 39589 3373 1.324
In this case top velocity comes from a highly compressed load of RL26 and produces 14K psi exiting the muzzle. Since it has it's own chemistry, it's probably not the best example, but H4895 is only around 11.3K. But to be fair, H380 simulates at 11.7K psi a the same velocity, or only 3.5% more then it's single base equivalent.
So the short answer to the OP, yes faster burning powders tend to reduce muzzle blast from shorter barrels.
[ .....
So the short answer to the OP, yes faster burning powders tend to reduce muzzle blast from shorter barrels.
Thank you!
Thinking you maybe found an answer here, but keep in mind there are more pieces to the puzzle if you are inclined to dabble. Jacketed bullets generally perform well within their designed velocity envelope. So too do cast or swaged bullets. I hunted for a spell with a .358 Win and it was prone to knocking the stuffing out of deer and pigs, but it was noticeably inferior to my .44 Mag carbine loaded with paper patched lead at a pedestrian 1,600 FPS. It wasn’t as hard on the ears either. In a .30-30 the old Lyman 311041 cast bullet is quite deadly with a MV around 2,000 FPS.
antelope sniper - I do understand the pressure curves but should've qualified my answer. I meant standard length barrels up to say 26 inch or possibly even up to 28 or 29 inches. I haven't attempted the maths but it doesn't sound right that friction would become the dominent force toward the end of the barrel when using a fast powder, to the point where it starts to slow the bullet down. It would eventually happen but I suspect the barrel would be unpractically long.
I say this because I have a couple of example firearms:
A 29inch barrel Mauser 8mm that always exceeds the velocity of standard barrels eg 150gn @ 3000fps.
I also have a 16.5 inch 9mm carbine that exceeds pistol velocities (not always by much though) and it uses a relatively miniscule amount of relatively fast powder, and has a large void behind the projectile to fill the gas with as it travels down the barrel.
Actually there's a website with published data for velocity versus reducing barrel length - some guys progressively chopped barrels and took readings, for several cartridges. I don't think they used any barrels longer than 22 inches, and sometimes there was minimal speed decrease at length decreases but I don't think the speed ever increased, if you know what I mean. I'll have to go back to their website though to check.
antelope sniper - I do understand the pressure curves but should've qualified my answer. I meant standard length barrels up to say 26 inch or possibly even up to 28 or 29 inches. I haven't attempted the maths but it doesn't sound right that friction would become the dominent force toward the end of the barrel when using a fast powder, to the point where it starts to slow the bullet down. It would eventually happen but I suspect the barrel would be unpractically long.
I say this because I have a couple of example firearms:
A 29inch barrel Mauser 8mm that always exceeds the velocity of standard barrels eg 150gn @ 3000fps.
I also have a 16.5 inch 9mm carbine that exceeds pistol velocities (not always by much though) and it uses a relatively miniscule amount of relatively fast powder, and has a large void behind the projectile to fill the gas with as it travels down the barrel.
Actually there's a website with published data for velocity versus reducing barrel length - some guys progressively chopped barrels and took readings, for several cartridges. I don't think they used any barrels longer than 22 inches, and sometimes there was minimal speed decrease at length decreases but I don't think the speed ever increased, if you know what I mean. I'll have to go back to their website though to check.
Go back and re-read the original string to which I responded.
The question was not about absolute velocities across barrel lengths, best velocity across power burn rates and barrel lengths.
Thanks everyone. I believe I have an answer to my OP that I can process...for now! Learn something everyday here on the fire!
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, & the amount that you can compensate for a short barrel with powder is pretty limited.....................
But have at & knock yourself out testing & re-testing if that's your gig.
MM
Perhaps you should read everything I posted before you chide me.
antelope sniper - I do understand the pressure curves but should've qualified my answer. I meant standard length barrels up to say 26 inch or possibly even up to 28 or 29 inches. I haven't attempted the maths but it doesn't sound right that friction would become the dominent force toward the end of the barrel when using a fast powder, to the point where it starts to slow the bullet down. It would eventually happen but I suspect the barrel would be unpractically long.
I say this because I have a couple of example firearms:
A 29inch barrel Mauser 8mm that always exceeds the velocity of standard barrels eg 150gn @ 3000fps.
I also have a 16.5 inch 9mm carbine that exceeds pistol velocities (not always by much though) and it uses a relatively miniscule amount of relatively fast powder, and has a large void behind the projectile to fill the gas with as it travels down the barrel.
Actually there's a website with published data for velocity versus reducing barrel length - some guys progressively chopped barrels and took readings, for several cartridges. I don't think they used any barrels longer than 22 inches, and sometimes there was minimal speed decrease at length decreases but I don't think the speed ever increased, if you know what I mean. I'll have to go back to their website though to check.
Go back and re-read the original string to which I responded.
The question was not about absolute velocities across barrel lengths, best velocity across power burn rates and barrel lengths.
Okay, got it. I would still think, unless the velocities were really close, that the powder giving the highest velocity would also do so in a shorter barrel - extra win if it happens to be the faster powder.
As has been quoted over and over on this forum, and again. In this thread.
The powder which produces the highest velocity with a specified cartridge and bullet with a 26 (or 30) inch barrel will also produce the highest velocity in a 16 inch barrel.
A different, faster powder, might produce nearly as much velocity in a 16 inch barrel, with significantly less barrel pressure at bullet exit. Which can give less noise, recoil, and muzzle blast.