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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: steve4102] #15603384 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by steve4102
Why the concern with MF, unless one is shooting at night?



Not concern is blast. Noise, not flash.


Originally Posted by gonehuntin
Give a communist a helicopter ride, he flies for an afternoon. Throw a communist out of a helicopter and he flies for the rest of his life.....



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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15603458 01/03/21
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There is some correlation between flash and blast. Flash is caused by flammable but unburned gasses in the cloud that forms after muzzle exit. When those gasses mix with new oxygen in the atmosphere, they can spontaneously ignite in a near-explosive way, producing an additional shock wave. Powders with a flash suppressant help control this.

But the major cause of high muzzle blast is simply the release of high pressure, like popping a cork. At 10,000 psi or more.


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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Castle_Rock] #15603509 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by Castle_Rock
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters

Thanks Castle_Rock. As many of the responses have reminded me, adding an inch or two to an already long barrel will increase my velocity without having to increase the powder charge (338 Lapua, 338-378, 30-378)...28" to 30" to 32" barrel will increase the velocity. I have tested this myself. I'll have to revise my query to how do I reduce muzzle blast in very short barreled 223 rifles such as one I have that is classified as an AR pistol. My AR pistol has a 7.5" barrel. Muzzle blast and the fireball in low light are obnoxious and blinding respectively. I have to agree with those that have observed that the velocity lost can only be recovered by a longer barrel.


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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15603549 01/03/21
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In my limited experience with a 300 savage and LVR powder got more velocity than H 4895 . With shorter barrels.

But I never really did a complete expierienent comparing loss of velocity between standard and shorter barrels.
But I don't know 🤷‍♀️ If LVR can be used in your listed calibers.

Last edited by Angus1895; 01/03/21.

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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15603728 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by Blu_Cs
Originally Posted by Castle_Rock
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters


Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!


And an excellent recommendation for the circumstances. Stick powders tend to be less "blasty" than ball powders out off short barrels.


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The U.S Government has a unique capacity for getting things upside down.
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Go quiet or full tilt, just don't get caught in the middle of the stupids. DD
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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15603733 01/03/21
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Lots of good explanations above - is any of this explicit stuff transferable to anatomy - that is - length of esophagus and resulting belch blast, length of lower intestine and - - -, etc.?

Or, do the ingredients rule? Please don't misunderstand the specificity of the inquiry.


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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: antelope_sniper] #15603772 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Blu_Cs
Originally Posted by Castle_Rock
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters


Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!


And an excellent recommendation for the circumstances. Stick powders tend to be less "blasty" than ball powders out off short barrels.

antelope sniper;
Good morning to you sir, I hope that this first Sunday of the year finds you and yours well.

That's an interesting observation and if I think about it I'd have to agree with it, but that's based on the 4895s mostly, though as mentioned I've burned a fair bit of IMR3031 and IMR4064 and can't recall them being quite as well "mild mannered" for lack of a more scientific term.

There's likely some science in the basic makeup of the powders as well and if you or some educated individual cares to share, I'd be interested in reading it.

All the best to you all in 2021 sir.

Dwayne


The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"

Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: mauserand9mm] #15603918 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Blu_Cs
Originally Posted by Magnumdood
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...


This


No it will not



Not always true. Depends on how much barrel you are lopping off.


Are you sure about that? That would imply that in some cases a longer barrel may actually be slowing a bullet down. Doesn't sound right.


Rocky provided a good explanation of some of the physics, maybe that's because he's a rocket scientist, but let me expand a bit.

Changing the burn rate changes the shape of the pressure curve. If we load two different powders to the same maximum pressure, both curves will have the same maximum amplitude, but changing the burn rate change the shape of the curve. These curves are not nice sin curves, but something like this, with the red line representing pressure and the blue line representing velocity:

[img]https://www.shootersforum.com/threads/pressure-curves.70991/#lg=thread-70991&slide=0[/img]

Looking at the above graph, think of the area under the red line as the amount of work performed against the bullet over a given length of barrel. As we increase the powder burn rate, the area under the curve shifts to the left. In other words, more of the work that adds velocity to the bullet is performed in the front part of the barrel. With a slower burning powder, the height of the pressure curve doesn't tapper off as quickly, and longer barrels are able to take advantage of this relative pressure differential for a longer time than shorter barrels.

Additionally, certain cartridge geometries benefit more from a longer barrel/slower powder dynamic. In general, the more over bore a cartridge, the more additional you will notice the differences in the impact of barrel length in both velocity increase due to added barrel length and changes in optimum powder choice relative to barrel length, but again, these are generalities.

With all that said, we must recognize the practical truth behind the claim that barrel length makes no difference in relative velocity potential of different powders. In the context of hunting length barrels, say 20 to 26" inches in length, this is mostly true. At the theoretical level differences do exist, but for the average reloaded, these will be masked by margin of error inherent in the small sample sizes he chronographs.


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The U.S Government has a unique capacity for getting things upside down.
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Go quiet or full tilt, just don't get caught in the middle of the stupids. DD
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Magnumdood] #15603942 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by Magnumdood
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.

It has repeatedly been shown that the same powder which produces maximum velocity in a 26 inch barrel will also produce the highest velocity in a carbine barrel. Albeit with excessive noise and muzzle blast.

As to the OP, I have had good luck using IMR 3031 in a carbine length 30-06 with 165 gr ballistic tips.

H4831 produced higher velocities in rifle and carbine barrel lengths. But IMR 3031 produced better accuracy in the carbine.


My ideal as a conservative:

That each person may reap as he/she has sown.
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15604029 01/03/21
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'taint the velocity that counts - it's the accuracy. My 17 inch barreled '06 does just fine with factory loads. I have no doubt it also will if I load up some 4350 reloads.

If you can't kill something at say 2250, 2300 ain't gonna help. I have personally never found the need (want yes, maybe) for a chronograph, and I have yet to ever use one.

Last edited by las; 01/03/21.

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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Magnumdood] #15604065 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by Magnumdood
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.


You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, & the amount that you can compensate for a short barrel with powder is pretty limited.....................

But have at & knock yourself out testing & re-testing if that's your gig.

MM

Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15604185 01/03/21
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I think the Lever lotion marketing ploy was improved performance with carbines.

I have been told the flagship bullet the FTX has more bearing surface to increase pressure?

But I totally agree we are talking about a very small difference perhaps.


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Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: BC30cal] #15604285 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by BC30cal
Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by Blu_Cs
Originally Posted by Castle_Rock
Reading comprehension isn’t real strong here, most are answering a question that wasn’t even asked
A smaller charge of a faster powder is much less blasty, especially in shorter barrels
H4895 is where I would want to be considering your parameters


Nice and pithy! Thanks CR!


And an excellent recommendation for the circumstances. Stick powders tend to be less "blasty" than ball powders out off short barrels.

antelope sniper;
Good morning to you sir, I hope that this first Sunday of the year finds you and yours well.

That's an interesting observation and if I think about it I'd have to agree with it, but that's based on the 4895s mostly, though as mentioned I've burned a fair bit of IMR3031 and IMR4064 and can't recall them being quite as well "mild mannered" for lack of a more scientific term.

There's likely some science in the basic makeup of the powders as well and if you or some educated individual cares to share, I'd be interested in reading it.

All the best to you all in 2021 sir.

Dwayne


Good Morning Dwayne. Happy New Years to you as well. I hope your 2021 is more prosperous than 2020.

I based my comments on "blastly" powders primarily on personal experience. My first hunting rifle was a Winchester Model 70a in .270, with a 22" barrel. Since we lived in the country and could shoot right out the back door, I poured a good number of powders through that rifle. The ball powders seemed to produce the most blast, especially as it relates to the size of the fireball. At dusk when I'd tough it off with a load of W760 or W785, all you could see through the scope was fire. They made for great 4th of July loads.

As for the actual chemistry behind this, I'm sure we have some real chemist here who can expand upon my crude understanding of the differences between the stick and double based ball powders. Both contain nitrocellulose, but double based powders also contain nitroglycerin, which tends to make them burn hotter, dirtier, and IMO blastyer.

Although this may be one relevant variable, Quickload has a function where it provides muzzle pressure when the bullet exits, which is a nice scientific measure of blastyness. When we take a look at the data, powder burn rate appears to be the more significant variable, with the faster powders being more mild to the ears in shorter barrels, which matches with your experience with the 4895's being more mild to the ears than the 4064's.

Since the OP referenced the 165gr bullets in a short barreled 30.06 I used that for my QL example.

Colum 8 below is pressure at the muzzle.

Code
Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 165, Nosler PART SP 16330
Useable Case Capaci: 61.996 grain H2O = 4.025 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 20.0 inch = 508.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 59000 psi, or 406 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

56 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 70%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-26 *C              110.0     67.6     4.38    2920    98.8    58422   13980   0.997  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 *T               99.5     59.7     3.87    2872    99.9    59000   12568   0.995  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP *C                       110.0     65.6     4.25    2864    96.0    57460   13582   1.007  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-16 *C *T           104.4     58.1     3.77    2854    99.3    59000   12475   0.992  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                       110.0     64.6     4.18    2827    92.3    58774   12996   0.994  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                     104.2     61.5     3.99    2824    97.5    59000   12508   1.004  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        98.4     59.5     3.85    2816    96.7    59000   12455   1.007  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      98.4     59.5     3.85    2816    96.7    59000   12455   1.007  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP *C                       103.8     58.7     3.80    2814    98.9    59000   12182   1.010  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                      103.3     59.0     3.82    2813    98.9    59000   12213   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 *C                 100.7     58.8     3.81    2811    98.7    59000   12286   1.015  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 *C              108.7     62.1     4.02    2811    94.7    59000   12547   1.000  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE223 *C                   93.9     58.5     3.79    2809    99.0    59000   12072   1.007  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon LVR                        101.0     57.7     3.74    2806    98.4    59000   12085   1.007  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209                        107.7     61.2     3.97    2803    94.3    59000   12412   0.995  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                           109.0     59.6     3.86    2798    99.0    59000   11958   1.018  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Big Game                    93.7     57.1     3.70    2794    99.6    59000   11689   1.010  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                106.7     59.0     3.82    2790    99.8    59000   11380   1.006  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 *C                 110.0     64.2     4.16    2789    90.8    54722   13164   1.031  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            93.3     53.3     3.45    2788    99.7    59000   11694   1.019  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213                        110.0     63.5     4.12    2788    91.7    57338   12705   1.005  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 *C                       102.9     60.7     3.94    2786    94.3    59000   12175   1.001  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 *C               94.1     53.8     3.48    2779    99.4    59000   11622   1.019  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B *C                       94.5     54.0     3.50    2778    99.6    59000   11559   1.020  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2                       89.0     55.5     3.60    2775   100.0    59000   11420   1.022  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748                      86.5     53.2     3.45    2773   100.0    59000   11054   1.014  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old                       96.1     55.5     3.60    2773    99.9    59000   11438   1.031  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 *C              110.0     63.5     4.12    2771    93.4    53898   12887   1.040  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC *T                109.4     63.2     4.10    2768    91.7    59000   12062   0.999  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                        95.4     55.7     3.61    2766    98.5    59000   11661   1.022  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320                            96.0     54.0     3.50    2766    99.6    59000   11220   1.004  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895                       90.7     51.8     3.36    2764    99.8    59000   11295   1.019  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Wild Boar                   89.2     54.5     3.53    2764    99.6    59000   11357   1.015  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H                        91.0     52.0     3.37    2761    99.6    59000   11331   1.018  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             106.8     64.4     4.17    2761    94.3    59000   11840   1.003  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S070                         102.9     58.2     3.77    2760    96.8    59000   11786   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World SW4350              102.9     58.2     3.77    2760    96.8    59000   11786   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                            93.6     50.0     3.24    2759   100.0    59000   10491   1.020  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                    110.0     66.8     4.33    2758    88.4    53704   12997   1.044  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 6,5 StaBall *T*C        101.7     62.5     4.05    2757    99.9    59000   11048   1.003  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum                     110.0     68.5     4.44    2756    94.0    55608   12427   1.022  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 *T                   105.5     59.0     3.82    2754    95.8    59000   11637   1.008  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                           103.6     58.9     3.81    2754    96.0    59000   11626   1.008  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.6                        91.0     53.6     3.47    2749   100.0    59000   10750   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Match Rifle          91.0     53.6     3.47    2749   100.0    59000   10750   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520                       89.0     53.6     3.47    2749   100.0    59000   10750   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064                       95.8     53.5     3.47    2746   100.0    59000   10741   1.051  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET *T                   96.6     53.4     3.46    2743    99.3    59000   11141   1.009  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208                         96.3     53.4     3.46    2743    99.3    59000   11141   1.009  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Long Rifle          101.5     56.7     3.68    2742    97.9    59000   11441   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S065                         101.5     56.7     3.68    2742    97.9    59000   11441   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 *C                  87.6     50.3     3.26    2741   100.0    59000   10829   1.016  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S062                          95.0     52.8     3.42    2740   100.0    59000   10886   1.027  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Precision            95.0     52.8     3.42    2740   100.0    59000   10886   1.027  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC *C                      89.1     54.9     3.56    2738    98.1    59000   11313   1.015  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064                            97.2     52.5     3.40    2738    99.4    59000   10979   1.014  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4451 Enduron *C*T               98.7     55.7     3.61    2737    96.5    59000   11407   1.009  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR                        89.5     51.1     3.31    2733   100.0    59000   10725   1.016  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        97.0     56.2     3.64    2733    95.9    59000   11452   1.020  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335                        82.5     51.5     3.33    2730   100.0    59000   10449   1.019  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 *C                        92.1     51.5     3.34    2730   100.0    59000   10814   1.030  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 *C                  93.7     54.1     3.51    2728   100.0    59000   10579   1.023  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 *C                        91.4     51.4     3.33    2728   100.0    59000   10437   1.024  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200                       89.2     51.7     3.35    2728    98.8    59000   10997   1.012  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4955 Enduron *C*T              110.0     61.2     3.96    2727    92.0    58289   11649   1.012  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 *C                 103.3     55.7     3.61    2727   100.0    59000   10636   1.023  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495                       90.1     50.4     3.26    2726   100.0    59000   10318   1.057  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-23 *C *T           110.0     61.5     3.99    2723    99.0    49953   12226   1.077
ADI AR 2219                         82.1     48.5     3.14    2723   100.0    59000   10148   1.015  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322                        87.4     48.5     3.14    2723   100.0    59000   10148   1.015  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator *C             86.9     53.0     3.43    2719    99.5    59000   10793   1.018  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460                       85.1     52.4     3.39    2718   100.0    59000   10486   1.037  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.5                        85.4     52.4     3.39    2718   100.0    59000   10486   1.037  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230                       85.0     52.6     3.41    2716    99.9    59000   10596   1.028  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4166 Enduron *C*T               97.7     53.5     3.47    2714    96.6    59000   11056   1.012  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 *C                  98.2     53.9     3.49    2713   100.0    59000   10418   1.019  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant AR-Comp *C *T               88.9     49.1     3.18    2711   100.0    59000    9705   1.026  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D073.4                        84.0     51.5     3.33    2709   100.0    59000   10333   1.032  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World AR Plus              84.0     51.5     3.33    2709   100.0    59000   10333   1.032  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210                         83.4     49.2     3.19    2704   100.0    59000   10256   1.016  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 *C                  99.6     51.6     3.34    2703   100.0    59000    9830   1.031  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S060                          91.4     50.8     3.29    2702    99.6    59000   10485   1.013  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Tactical Rifle       83.8     51.0     3.31    2700    99.9    59000   10325   1.018  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                      110.0     62.9     4.07    2697    96.3    53240   11765   1.075  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark                   88.6     49.9     3.23    2696   100.0    59000   10197   1.016  ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2                             81.6     49.7     3.22    2696   100.0    59000   10170   1.016  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12                  87.3     50.9     3.30    2694   100.0    59000    9887   1.020  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206                         90.7     51.3     3.32    2692    99.8    59000   10323   1.013  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700                       96.9     57.8     3.74    2687    95.7    59000   10789   1.023  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                     110.0     62.2     4.03    2683    91.6    49046   12473   1.088
Alliant Reloder-10x *C              84.9     45.8     2.97    2676   100.0    59000    9538   1.031  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon CFE BLK *C                  81.2     49.2     3.19    2673   100.0    59000    9988   1.017  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015                       87.4     47.8     3.10    2668   100.0    59000    9467   1.037  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 *T                   110.0     61.1     3.96    2657    89.5    52049   11564   1.059  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680                       74.2     44.3     2.87    2654   100.0    59000    9290   1.015  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 *C                        81.3     45.5     2.95    2653   100.0    59000    9300   1.045  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198                       82.3     44.2     2.86    2651   100.0    59000    9230   1.008  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133 *C                  93.1     48.7     3.16    2650   100.0    59000    9182   1.022  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198                            84.6     43.4     2.81    2639   100.0    59000    8913   1.013  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                           110.0     61.1     3.96    2636    88.4    47900   12094   1.094
Vihtavuori N165 *C                 110.0     62.2     4.03    2635    93.1    50686   11280   1.078
Shooters World Buffalo Rifle        73.0     39.0     2.53    2635   100.0    59000    9073   1.011  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744                       71.4     39.0     2.53    2635   100.0    59000    9073   1.011  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex D060                          73.0     39.0     2.53    2635   100.0    59000    9073   1.011  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 *C                  87.8     46.9     3.04    2634   100.0    59000    9048   1.028  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214                        110.0     65.3     4.23    2630    88.4    50034   11888   1.074
Alliant Reloder-7                   80.0     44.2     2.87    2629   100.0    59000    8982   1.030  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 *C                 110.0     60.3     3.91    2627    90.9    52097   11052   1.066  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207                         80.2     42.8     2.78    2618   100.0    59000    8799   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25 *C              110.0     62.5     4.05    2613    94.0    44316   12414   1.136
Vihtavuori N565 *C                 110.0     64.6     4.18    2599    87.5    44467   12268   1.147
Hodgdon H4227                       77.0     40.3     2.61    2584   100.0    59000    8357   1.020  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227                            76.8     40.1     2.60    2581   100.0    59000    8333   1.016  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 *C                  82.5     43.0     2.79    2572   100.0    59000    8247   1.036  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 *C                  78.1     41.5     2.69    2572   100.0    59000    8255   1.034  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S053                          77.6     39.8     2.58    2539   100.0    59000    7970   1.033  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S071                         110.0     59.4     3.85    2520    93.3    43104   11098   1.187
IMR 7977 Enduron *C*T              110.0     62.2     4.03    2520    80.0    51150   10086   1.081  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 *C                     110.0     62.9     4.07    2499    85.5    39554   11877   1.205
ADI AR 2205                         73.6     40.0     2.59    2488   100.0    59000    7577   1.028  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110 *C                  73.2     35.5     2.30    2462   100.0    59000    7294   1.046  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2217                        110.0     62.2     4.03    2454    83.9    41387   10945   1.176
Hodgdon H1000 *T                   110.0     62.2     4.03    2454    83.9    41387   10945   1.176
Vihtavuori N570 *C                 110.0     66.3     4.30    2449    75.7    38838   11788   1.216
Hodgdon Retumbo                    110.0     63.2     4.10    2368    84.0    35488   11295   1.267
ADI AR 2225                        110.0     63.2     4.10    2368    84.0    35488   11295   1.267
Shooters World BMG                 110.0     67.6     4.38    2364    72.3    41210    9746   1.194
Lovex D100                         110.0     67.6     4.38    2364    72.3    41210    9746   1.194
Alliant Reloder-33 *C              110.0     68.2     4.42    2363    73.6    36317   11183   1.258
Vihtavuori N170 *C                 110.0     62.2     4.03    2319    75.5    36364    9897   1.272
Vihtavuori 24N41 *C                110.0     67.0     4.34    2314    67.7    38424    9769   1.231
Accurate LRT                       110.0     66.8     4.33    2281    65.1    36232    9839   1.265
ADI AR 2218                        110.0     67.0     4.34    2279    66.5    36036   10177   1.265
ADI AP 100                          71.9     28.4     1.84    2270   100.0    59000    5939   1.050  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 217 *C                       110.0     61.9     4.01    2250    79.2    30073   10836   1.360
IMR 8133 Enduron *C*T              110.0     61.5     3.99    2246    76.7    30655   10465   1.349
Hodgdon H870                       110.0     64.9     4.21    2224    71.5    30991   10269   1.346
Alliant HERCO                       71.5     25.6     1.66    2207   100.0    59000    5654   1.076  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50 *C              110.0     68.0     4.41    2139    65.7    27798   10006   1.411
Lovex S035                          70.5     25.1     1.62    2137   100.0    59000    5077   1.078  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG                      110.0     63.8     4.14    2136    59.2    30969    8732   1.351
Hodgdon US 869                     110.0     67.0     4.34    2127    62.4    30687    8776   1.360
Lovex D013                          72.7     21.7     1.41    2112   100.0    59000    5138   1.085  ! Near Maximum !
Shooters World Sparta 100           72.7     21.7     1.41    2112   100.0    59000    5138   1.085  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Nitro 100                  72.7     21.7     1.41    2112   100.0    59000    5138   1.085  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant GREEN DOT                   72.5     23.1     1.50    2098   100.0    59000    5011   1.090  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant RED DOT                     77.5     22.0     1.43    2088   100.0    59000    4985   1.077  ! Near Maximum !
Lovex S015                          73.3     23.2     1.50    2085   100.0    59000    4916   1.089  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate Solo 1000                  73.3     23.2     1.50    2085   100.0    59000    4916   1.089  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AS 30                           76.9     22.7     1.47    2066   100.0    59000    4821   1.084  ! Near Maximum !
Norma R1                            81.3     23.5     1.52    2047   100.0    59000    4715   1.086  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Clays                       80.7     22.1     1.43    2041   100.0    59000    4687   1.076  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 8700                      110.0     65.6     4.25    2030    62.5    27614    8264   1.421
Vihtavuori 20N29 *C                110.0     67.6     4.38    1995    59.3    26041    8220   1.457
Vihtavuori N32C Tin Star            96.0     27.4     1.77    1978   100.0    59000    4204   1.113  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AS 25 BP                       110.0     21.2     1.37    1727   100.0    39589    3373   1.324
IMR TrailBoss                      110.0     21.2     1.37    1727   100.0    39589    3373   1.324



In this case top velocity comes from a highly compressed load of RL26 and produces 14K psi exiting the muzzle. Since it has it's own chemistry, it's probably not the best example, but H4895 is only around 11.3K. But to be fair, H380 simulates at 11.7K psi a the same velocity, or only 3.5% more then it's single base equivalent.

So the short answer to the OP, yes faster burning powders tend to reduce muzzle blast from shorter barrels.


Nobody spends somebody else�s money as carefully as he spends his own.
The U.S Government has a unique capacity for getting things upside down.
Milton Friedman.

Go quiet or full tilt, just don't get caught in the middle of the stupids. DD
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: antelope_sniper] #15604595 01/03/21
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Blu_Cs Offline OP
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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
[ .....


So the short answer to the OP, yes faster burning powders tend to reduce muzzle blast from shorter barrels.




Thank you!


Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. Isaiah 41:10
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15604810 01/03/21
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DigitalDan Offline
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Thinking you maybe found an answer here, but keep in mind there are more pieces to the puzzle if you are inclined to dabble. Jacketed bullets generally perform well within their designed velocity envelope. So too do cast or swaged bullets. I hunted for a spell with a .358 Win and it was prone to knocking the stuffing out of deer and pigs, but it was noticeably inferior to my .44 Mag carbine loaded with paper patched lead at a pedestrian 1,600 FPS. It wasn’t as hard on the ears either. In a .30-30 the old Lyman 311041 cast bullet is quite deadly with a MV around 2,000 FPS.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: Blu_Cs] #15605046 01/03/21
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antelope sniper - I do understand the pressure curves but should've qualified my answer. I meant standard length barrels up to say 26 inch or possibly even up to 28 or 29 inches. I haven't attempted the maths but it doesn't sound right that friction would become the dominent force toward the end of the barrel when using a fast powder, to the point where it starts to slow the bullet down. It would eventually happen but I suspect the barrel would be unpractically long.

I say this because I have a couple of example firearms:
A 29inch barrel Mauser 8mm that always exceeds the velocity of standard barrels eg 150gn @ 3000fps.
I also have a 16.5 inch 9mm carbine that exceeds pistol velocities (not always by much though) and it uses a relatively miniscule amount of relatively fast powder, and has a large void behind the projectile to fill the gas with as it travels down the barrel.

Actually there's a website with published data for velocity versus reducing barrel length - some guys progressively chopped barrels and took readings, for several cartridges. I don't think they used any barrels longer than 22 inches, and sometimes there was minimal speed decrease at length decreases but I don't think the speed ever increased, if you know what I mean. I'll have to go back to their website though to check.

Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: mauserand9mm] #15605064 01/03/21
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antelope_sniper Online Content
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Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
antelope sniper - I do understand the pressure curves but should've qualified my answer. I meant standard length barrels up to say 26 inch or possibly even up to 28 or 29 inches. I haven't attempted the maths but it doesn't sound right that friction would become the dominent force toward the end of the barrel when using a fast powder, to the point where it starts to slow the bullet down. It would eventually happen but I suspect the barrel would be unpractically long.

I say this because I have a couple of example firearms:
A 29inch barrel Mauser 8mm that always exceeds the velocity of standard barrels eg 150gn @ 3000fps.
I also have a 16.5 inch 9mm carbine that exceeds pistol velocities (not always by much though) and it uses a relatively miniscule amount of relatively fast powder, and has a large void behind the projectile to fill the gas with as it travels down the barrel.

Actually there's a website with published data for velocity versus reducing barrel length - some guys progressively chopped barrels and took readings, for several cartridges. I don't think they used any barrels longer than 22 inches, and sometimes there was minimal speed decrease at length decreases but I don't think the speed ever increased, if you know what I mean. I'll have to go back to their website though to check.



Go back and re-read the original string to which I responded.

The question was not about absolute velocities across barrel lengths, best velocity across power burn rates and barrel lengths.


Nobody spends somebody else�s money as carefully as he spends his own.
The U.S Government has a unique capacity for getting things upside down.
Milton Friedman.

Go quiet or full tilt, just don't get caught in the middle of the stupids. DD
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: DigitalDan] #15605474 01/03/21
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Blu_Cs Offline OP
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Thanks everyone. I believe I have an answer to my OP that I can process...for now! Learn something everyday here on the fire!


Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, Yes, I will help you, I will uphold you with My righteous right hand. Isaiah 41:10
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: MontanaMan] #15606042 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Magnumdood
I'm not looking for reduced loads. I want to see if a little faster burning powder would increase the velocity lost from a radically shorter barrel...without being SO much faster that it turns the chamber into a hand grenade.


You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, & the amount that you can compensate for a short barrel with powder is pretty limited.....................

But have at & knock yourself out testing & re-testing if that's your gig.

MM

Perhaps you should read everything I posted before you chide me.


If not for a double standard democrats would have no standards at all.
Re: Powder for short barreled rifles? [Re: antelope_sniper] #15606974 01/03/21
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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
antelope sniper - I do understand the pressure curves but should've qualified my answer. I meant standard length barrels up to say 26 inch or possibly even up to 28 or 29 inches. I haven't attempted the maths but it doesn't sound right that friction would become the dominent force toward the end of the barrel when using a fast powder, to the point where it starts to slow the bullet down. It would eventually happen but I suspect the barrel would be unpractically long.

I say this because I have a couple of example firearms:
A 29inch barrel Mauser 8mm that always exceeds the velocity of standard barrels eg 150gn @ 3000fps.
I also have a 16.5 inch 9mm carbine that exceeds pistol velocities (not always by much though) and it uses a relatively miniscule amount of relatively fast powder, and has a large void behind the projectile to fill the gas with as it travels down the barrel.

Actually there's a website with published data for velocity versus reducing barrel length - some guys progressively chopped barrels and took readings, for several cartridges. I don't think they used any barrels longer than 22 inches, and sometimes there was minimal speed decrease at length decreases but I don't think the speed ever increased, if you know what I mean. I'll have to go back to their website though to check.



Go back and re-read the original string to which I responded.

The question was not about absolute velocities across barrel lengths, best velocity across power burn rates and barrel lengths.


Okay, got it. I would still think, unless the velocities were really close, that the powder giving the highest velocity would also do so in a shorter barrel - extra win if it happens to be the faster powder.

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