The oil can guitar thread got me thinking. I'm running unleaded gas in that old flathead motor in my tractor. The way I understand it, the lead in gasoline is the only thing that lubricates the valve guides in old motors.
I've heard of people mixing small amounts of various oils in unleaded gas to serve that purpose,...including Marvel Mystery Oil.
Any of you guys do that? If so, what's the ratio?
Any oil, diesel fuel will work.
lol
I thought that stuff was just colored kerosene when I used to hang out at the Napa
What about all the engine oil burnt through the guides?
Doesn't the station in Hickville have leaded gas?
Look up zinc additives for older engines while you're at it.
I put lead additive on my gas for 69 mopar, but I do that for the lack of hardened exhaust seats in my 906 heads.
Crappy, old rubber valve seals might allow enough oil to escape up and oil those guides for you. I don’t know about those old tractors, would some have bronze guides?
What about all the engine oil burnt through the guides?
I guess that would serve the purpose if the guides are worn enough to allow oil to pass through. Years ago I worked in an automotive machine shop rebuilding heads. Those with wallered out valve guides would have the valve pockets caked with carbon from oil flowing up through them and getting burnt.
So I don't know if engine oil would be a good substitute.
I put lead additive on my gas for 69 mopar, but I that for the lack of hardened exhaust seats in my 906 heads.
Crappy, old rubber valve seals might allow enough oil to escape up and oil those guides for you. I don’t know about those old tractors, would some have bronze guides?
I don't know. I doubt it. I'd guess that the guides are just machined into the block.
Doesn't the station in Hickville have leaded gas?
There's hardly any place to buy leaded gas around here. One station about 30 miles away has it.
I've heard of adding Marvel Mystery Oil to diesel fuel additives to increase lubricity of low sulfur diesel fuels and experimented with it years ago. I don't remember any mix ratios, but you might search on some of the diesel or other truck forums and find an answer.
Get you a lead substitute for the gas, and Rislone makes an oil additive with ZDDP.
A friend owned a truck maint. garage and told me Marvel Mystery oil is one of the best diesel injector cleaners available.
Yep,..apparently 8N motors have replaceable valve guides.
It's actually to lubricate the valve seats and to prevent engine knock.
You can use a lead sustitute to take care of the problem.
Take some of the lead outta your ass and put it inna gas.
Interesting.
Even though the flat head arrangement is different....I still don't know how the lead would lubricate the guides.
It pulls aif fuel past the guides...not through them.
After they went to positive seals....guides wore more quickly. Some consumption past the guides is necessary.
Unleaded gas will damage seats however.
Hmmm....Interesting.
Wonder how it was supposed to lubricate the guides?
I have used MMO as a fuel additive for my small engines and outboards for years and have always gotten long, long life out of them. I also mix it 50:50 with Kroil and use it as an all-purpose cleaner/lube for firearms. For the auto rifles, pistols and shotguns that like to run wet I keep them lubed up with that mix. It seems to lube without gumming up with combustion residue. When my FIL was in the marina business, he used to use MMO to fog engines when winterizing them, as did his father. One tool and die shop I worked in kept MMO around as the penetrating oil of choice, but I never thought it was worth a schitt for that....not even on the same planet as Kroil.
Wonder if you ran some 100ll?
Its not like you are working the piss outta it.
Airport probably has 110 low lead for sale if there’s one close by.
Interesting.
Even though the flat head arrangement is different....I still don't know how the lead would lubricate the guides.
It pulls aif fuel past the guides...not through them.
After they went to positive seals....guides wore more quickly. Some consumption past the guides is necessary.
Unleaded gas will damage seats however.
Hmmm....Interesting.
Wonder how it was supposed to lubricate the guides?
I just assumed that it left deposits on the valve stem which served as a lubricant between the stem and the guides. But it's something I read long ago. I don't recall the particulars about it.
From what I'm reading now it seems that lead is more beneficial to the valve seat than the guide.
Wonder if you ran some 100ll?
Its not like you are working the piss outta it.
Great minds and all that.
Wonder if VP race fuels has something similar?
You can get that by the drum.
Airport probably has 110 low lead for sale if there’s one close by.
I guess I could. I might drive over to the airport.
Yes.
I believe that lead stopped the "adhesion" of the seat to the valve.
Like little microwelds. Seat depth would increase over time.
Hardened seats cured that.
Far as I knew....a little oil pulled by the stem was always the lubricant.
Not sure anything but lead would stop the adhesion problem.
Airport probably has 110 low lead for sale if there’s one close by.
I guess I could. I might drive over to the airport.
Its expensive. Maybe run 50-50 or 75-25 or something.
Get you a lead substitute for the gas, and Rislone makes an oil additive with ZDDP.
ZDDP was used by my neighbor on one of his motors for the valve seats.
Get you a lead substitute for the gas, and Rislone makes an oil additive with ZDDP.
ZDDP was used by my neighbor on one of his motors for the valve seats.
Normally its for the cam and lifters.
one thing I've noticed watching a ton of "does it run after sitting for 20 years" videos on youtube. MMO is the go to product for unsticking rings with these guys
Thanks for the replies. The old motor was completely rebuilt when the tractor was restored. I'd like to keep it as fresh as possible. I've been lazy about not treating the unleaded fuel I'm running in it.
Frogsnacks.
It was not uncommon to rebuild them with better seats.
Sometimes.
one thing I've noticed watching a ton of "does it run after sitting for 20 years" videos on youtube. MMO is the go to product for unsticking rings with these guys
Yeah, I can see why they would use it. An old guy that worked with me at the automotive machine shop rebuilt those old Kohler flathead V4 motors that used to be used on everything. He would start them up and let them run after he rebuilt them. He always added Marvel Mystery Oil to the first tank of gas in a freshly rebuilt motor.
That's the first time I had heard about it.
Frogsnacks.
It was not uncommon to rebuild them with better seats.
Sometimes.
The old 8N was restored back in the 80s. It set in a heated garage since then and just started up occasionally. It had 8 hours put on it when I bought it. I've put about 40 hours on it.
That's a good link for ethanol free gas.
I just read where Ford was already using a hardened seat by the time your engine was made.
I just read where Ford was already using a hardened seat by the time your engine was made.
Yeah?
They were ahead of the game.
In more ways than one.
That was per the 8n owners group.
Upon recommendation from a crusty old Harley mechanic, I've been putting a capful to 1 ounce in a full tank of gas for 20 years in mine.
B, I sure would not mess with any high octane fuel. That engine has a compression ratio of 6.2/1. Just barely enough to make 85 or 87 octane fire off.
Lead was useful to lubricate valve seats, not valve guides.
When it was rebuilt in the 80s, it probably got hardened seats.
I tore down my 8N and rebuilt it in the garage in the mid eighties. It has hardened seats. And it has run thousands of hours since pulling a plow, disc, corrugator, terracing blade, and fresno. It runs as well today, as it did with the fresh rebuild, all on 87 octane, no lead, 5% ethanol.
Have you taken the fuel cap off and seen the fuel boiling inside the tank from engine heat yet? That is when you know you have been working the old girl.
One cousin has the Furguson OHV twin to the 8N, a TO 20. Grandad had three 8Ns, an Uncle has three more, my Dad had one. They all get fed the same diet as mine. They all have spent 50 years working in the fields, and none have failed prematurely.
Don't sweat the fuel. She will run well on whatever you have available to feed her. And with your rate of usage, she will still be running when your grandkids die of old age.
The seat is what suffered at the loss of leaded gas, not the guide. But the loss of lead in gas wasn't normally a problem for most industrial type engines as they had hardened valve sets already. Not just Ford, but Deere, Continental, Perkins, etc. etc. Many even had valve rotators that turned the valve a partial revolution each time it opened, keeping the seats free of carbon. This more likely to be seen in OHV engines.
This aside, Marvel is still a great fuel additive IMO. I started using it in older Harleys that didn't yet have hardened seats, at the urge of an older fellow I once bought a motor cycle from. He told me to just use a cap or 2 full per tank & not to use it every tankful, just every other one. Said it was so good, that it built up in the system & if used too often, the engine would begin to puff smoke. He said you can plainly see when you've used it too often. I thought, BS! It was not BS.
I don't need it to lube seats in anything I now own but have found another use for it. I winterize fuel systems with Marvel. Way better results for me than Stabil.
Marvel also works well as a fogging agent when putting marine engines away for six or eight months.
My guess is, you’ve got hardened seats, and you’ll be fine, but with as little as you’re using it, lead substitute would be cheap.
OTOH, any motor with a flat tappet cam ought to be using a ZDDP substitute these days. Manufacturers have taken much of the zinc out of motor oils (ruins catalytic convertors, and isn’t needed for roller tappet cams and OHV motors). Even lawnmowers/garden tractors ought to get an SJ oil or ZDDP substitute (the zinc is way low in newer SN oils).
But ethanol free gas is still not leaded gas, is it?
no
I have two 8Ns, one my Granddad had rebuilt in 1983 with hardened seats and I just use non-ethanol gas. The other I mix Red Line or Motor Medic lead additive into non-ethanol gas that was recommended by the N Tractor Club and N-News.
http://www.ntractorclub.com/ https://n-news.com/
It's actually to lubricate the valve seats and to prevent engine knock.
You can use a lead sustitute to take care of the problem.
This. It is the valve seats that require the lead additive. You can have hardened seats installed to prevent the wear.
I run mostly ATF in my diesel fuel to boost cetane. I also use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel additive alternately.
Doesn't the station in Hickville have leaded gas?
There's hardly any place to buy leaded gas around here. One station about 30 miles away has it.
Our local Chevrolet dealer has a performance shop. He sells 2 grades of leaded gas. One is 100 octane and the other is 110 octane. It comes in 5 gallon cans. Another option would be 100 LL (low lead) at your local airport.
kwg
1 Pure Gas Stations in Alaskaprint all RSS feed for Alaska
City Brand Octane Name Phone Street Address Last Updated
Any Town UNBRANDED 87 91 93
All Alaska Gas StationsLOL
Get you a lead substitute for the gas, and Rislone makes an oil additive with ZDDP.
ZDDP was used by my neighbor on one of his motors for the valve seats.
Normally its for the cam and lifters.
Maybe that's what it was for, and I misremember.
Zinc additives..ZDDP
and then if one puts about 5% diesel fuel mixed in with your gas, it increases your octane...
That'll work real good.. spendy, but I use that in my lawn mowers and Trimmers around the house...
Figure in the frustration of having to clean out carburetors, and replacing spark plugs etc, avoiding all of that, paying $4.50 a gallon for avgas doesn't seem like that bad of an idea any more...
I run mostly ATF in my diesel fuel to boost cetane. I also use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel additive alternately.
I've been told that ATF can screw up injectors in diesel and gasoline engines. For 16 years I've been using a mixture of Power Service (to increase the cetane/clean injectors) and TWC3 2 cycle oil (to lubricate the injector pump and injectors). Every time I fill up I add 7/10 of an ounce of the mixture for every gallon of diesel. I used a MMO/Power Service mix for about a year until I found out that 2 cycle oil is a much better lubricant than MMO. MMO is almost all mineral oil with just a few other additives, it does smell good though..
I run mostly ATF in my diesel fuel to boost cetane. I also use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel additive alternately.
I've been told that ATF can screw up injectors in diesel and gasoline engines. For 16 years I've been using a mixture of Power Service (to increase the cetane/clean injectors) and TWC3 2 cycle oil (to lubricate the injector pump and injectors). Every time I fill up I add 7/10 of an ounce of the mixture for every gallon of diesel. I used a MMO/Power Service mix for about a year until I found out that 2 cycle oil is a much better lubricant than MMO. MMO is almost all mineral oil with just a few other additives, it does smell good though..
Bad for common rail diesels, and really bad for DPF and SCR.
I use MMO in everything. I've been known to even mix it with my coke. A splash here and there has saved me countless hours in carb rebuilds alone. Nothing gets stored for the winter without some MMO being ran through it.
and then if one puts about 5% diesel fuel mixed in with your gas, it increases your octane...
Everything I've found discussing this discredits it.
Valve guides don't need lubrication. The valve stem is harder than woodpecker lips, graphite in the cast iron head is all the lube needed. There's generally. 002"~.003" clearance, a valve stem isn't going to seeze up.
Lead was used to lube the exhaust valve seat...
This high dollar stuff is pretty amusing for a flathead engine designed in 1939 to run on 70 octane WHITE GAS.
The flathead ford tractor engine used in the 2N, 9N, and 8N had hardened valve seats from the introduction in 1939.
Again, go down to the local gas station and fill a couple five gallon cans with the cheapest stuff they sell. The tractor can not tell the difference.
I have been replacing a quart of motor oil with a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil, in my pick ups, for years. I guest works fine, as I get high mileage out of my vehicles.
I believe my friend puts a certain ratio of MMO in aviation fuel that he runs in his muscle cars, hot rods and exotic cars.
I run mostly ATF in my diesel fuel to boost cetane. I also use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel additive alternately.
I've been told that ATF can screw up injectors in diesel and gasoline engines. For 16 years I've been using a mixture of Power Service (to increase the cetane/clean injectors) and TWC3 2 cycle oil (to lubricate the injector pump and injectors). Every time I fill up I add 7/10 of an ounce of the mixture for every gallon of diesel. I used a MMO/Power Service mix for about a year until I found out that 2 cycle oil is a much better lubricant than MMO. MMO is almost all mineral oil with just a few other additives, it does smell good though..
Bad for common rail diesels, and really bad for DPF and SCR.
300,000+ miles on my 99 7.3L Powerstroke, all of them with light to moderate towing, & the motor still has all of its original internal parts. It runs better now than it did when I drove it off the lot. I have been driving tractor trailers as well as my own personal diesel truck since 1987, which is where I began using ATF in the tank. Have never experienced a single malfunction or concern, ever. Fuel mileage suffers without it given this water they call diesel these days. Noticeable upgrade with it.
Yep, ZDDP is for the exhaust valve seat to replace the lead that was in fuel. Avgas is for high compression engines. The 8n is not.. MMO is a good lubricant, but don't see it helping a valve seat.
.......MMO is a good lubricant, but don't see it helping a valve seat.
It sure will free a sticky, collapsed valve lifter on a Chevrolet V8.
Yep, ZDDP is for the exhaust valve seat to replace the lead that was in fuel. Avgas is for high compression engines. The 8n is not.. MMO is a good lubricant, but don't see it helping a valve seat.
No, ZDDP is for the oil, and it cushions the lobes of the cam, the mating surface of the lifters, etc..
Folks should add it to the oil for ANYTHING running a flat tappet cam. The new SN oils don’t have enough zinc, anymore.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sp...at-is-zddp-benefits-of-zinc-in-oil/30870
I run mostly ATF in my diesel fuel to boost cetane. I also use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel additive alternately.
I've been told that ATF can screw up injectors in diesel and gasoline engines. For 16 years I've been using a mixture of Power Service (to increase the cetane/clean injectors) and TWC3 2 cycle oil (to lubricate the injector pump and injectors). Every time I fill up I add 7/10 of an ounce of the mixture for every gallon of diesel. I used a MMO/Power Service mix for about a year until I found out that 2 cycle oil is a much better lubricant than MMO. MMO is almost all mineral oil with just a few other additives, it does smell good though..
Bad for common rail diesels, and really bad for DPF and SCR.
300,000+ miles on my 99 7.3L Powerstroke, all of them with light to moderate towing, & the motor still has all of its original internal parts. It runs better now than it did when I drove it off the lot. I have been driving tractor trailers as well as my own personal diesel truck since 1987, which is where I began using ATF in the tank. Have never experienced a single malfunction or concern, ever. Fuel mileage suffers without it given this water they call diesel these days. Noticeable upgrade with it.
ATF is a great additive for my diesel tractors. I’ve been adding ATF since I bought my first semi tractor. My current N14 Celect plus has 1,163,000 miles on it with two injectors replaced and I rolled in new rods and mains at 968,000 miles. I keep the overhead run and keep the oil changed. I can’t speak to the new diesels with the egr and def but I can say that the ATF works great in new deleted engines. I my friends are deleting all their new engines and running ATF and getting great durability. One truck I personally know of with a newer motor has just flipped a million miles running Florida to California every week with only regular maintenance. No injectors , turbos , or anything else major.
We owned the engine rebuild shop during the late 80's through 2000ish. We saw the switch to unleaded. We cut heads for hard seats but damn near every burned valve was from an exhaust leak....not fuel choice.
High octane fuel is actually harder to ignite and can be a pita if you don't have the compression to run it and the carb dialed for it.
I'd run non ethanol and never look back.
We owned the engine rebuild shop during the late 80's through 2000ish. We saw the switch to unleaded. We cut heads for hard seats but damn near every burned valve was from an exhaust leak....not fuel choice.
High octane fuel is actually harder to ignite and can be a pita if you don't have the compression to run it and the carb dialed for it.
I'd run non ethanol and never look back.
During that time frame I worked at a GM engine plant. I don't remember the year, when we came out with the high rail heads we had three different types of exhaust valve seats. One was the stock seat, trucks got the induction- hardened cast iron seats, performance heads got the stelite inserts. We also put the rotater caps on the exhaust valves. Not sure how much good they did...
I run mostly ATF in my diesel fuel to boost cetane. I also use Marvel Mystery Oil as a fuel additive alternately.
I've been told that ATF can screw up injectors in diesel and gasoline engines. For 16 years I've been using a mixture of Power Service (to increase the cetane/clean injectors) and TWC3 2 cycle oil (to lubricate the injector pump and injectors). Every time I fill up I add 7/10 of an ounce of the mixture for every gallon of diesel. I used a MMO/Power Service mix for about a year until I found out that 2 cycle oil is a much better lubricant than MMO. MMO is almost all mineral oil with just a few other additives, it does smell good though..
Bad for common rail diesels, and really bad for DPF and SCR.
300,000+ miles on my 99 7.3L Powerstroke, all of them with light to moderate towing, & the motor still has all of its original internal parts. It runs better now than it did when I drove it off the lot. I have been driving tractor trailers as well as my own personal diesel truck since 1987, which is where I began using ATF in the tank. Have never experienced a single malfunction or concern, ever. Fuel mileage suffers without it given this water they call diesel these days. Noticeable upgrade with it.
I'm aware of it's use in vehicles of that vintage. Happy for you.
I did the same in my '93 F250 diesel. After talking to a trucking fleet mechanic, on his suggestion, I switched to adding 2 stroke oil for lubricity. Its designed for lube, designed to burn. Better than ATF, IMO.
But, I wouldn't use it in my '11 F250 w/ DPF. It would foul that.
Seems doable in a deleted truck as daveinjax posted.