Other than Man, of course.

First we need a working definition of sentient. Hell, I just read that mollusks and arthropods are considered sentient by some as well as fish and mammals.

One of our esteemed members recently stated that elephants and cetacians are likely sentient.

So back to the definition:
Self aware, of course. But what does that mean? How is it measured?
Aware that decisions today will affect your life tomorrow? Aware that decisions today will affect the life of your progeny?

The ability to abandon a learned but non-productive behavior? My cow will stop coming to the barn when I call her if I quit feeding her treats there.

I have heard that "knowledge of approaching time of death" is indicative of sentience. There is evidence that elephants recognize the approach of death and migrate to a location reserved for that.

Most humans recognize that to kill a sentient being, other than in defense of self or others is murder.

Which critters must we remove from the menu?

So a clam is sentient and deserves life but an unborn child isn't and doesn't?

My personal opinion based on albeit limited experience would be that elephants should indeed meet the "sentient" classification.

We are all “food”. The only question is what will consume us.

Dogs...
Have a soul and mind.
I dont care what the Bible says contrary about it either.
Most of the Bible and all it's spinoff series have been edited, cut, copied, pasted to suit those who wanted it that way for their own means and needs for 2k+ yrs anyways.

I don’t know what animals to remove from the menu but adding Liberals wouldn’t seem to be a problem

Dolphins are pretty smart and I believe it’s been said they have sex for pleasure not just to procreate.

None should be removed.

I view elephants like AR-15s. Anti-gun people paint the AR in a bad light with monikers like dangerous, assault, automatic, high capacity and try to convince gun owners that is all they want to ban, when in fact they want total gun confiscation.

Anti-hunters use elephant and other large animals in much the same manner. Anti-hunters use terms like endangered, sentient, iconic to end elephant hunting when their ultimate goal is to end all hunting.

I much prefer my labs to most people. They are intelligent (for a dog), gentle, and loyal. They are not sentient like a human. I would put a bullet in either one of them if they ever bit one of the grandchildren, they are only animals.

I’d say Bonobo monkeys are sentient. All they do is have sex and eat

In my eyes, the main problem lies in addressing the statement of "Man is the peak of creation" the wrong way.
People were really hung up on this until research showed that some animals have behavioural patterns very similar to those of humans, so the logical conclusion to them was that every animal is as divine, as special and as great as they had always thought humans were. See the whole "Animals are our brothers and sisters" sentiment. The way I see it, it is far more realistic to view humanity as "just as low down" as some animals (with limitations of course) and simply come off the pedestal we had previously built for ourselves. tl;dr not "animals are just as great as humans", but "humans are just as normal as animals", so I eat what I want as long as I am not wasteful.

The "elephant graveyard" thing was also debunked if I remember correctly.

Sounds like a vegan thread

Where's Gus when you need him?

our dear Lord put animals on this earth for man to use and eat,we are not vegans !

I would like to read more about that. I will look for it.

So the "shall not murder" is more of a law meant to protect society, than it is a moral obligation? (Not directed at anyone in particular.)

Lol!!!
Was thinking of a vid of em also.

Murder is often allowed in order to protect society, and on "moral" grounds ie "justified"

The older I get, the more I value animals, and the less I value humans.

I used to have an issue with this notion, and then November 3rd happened and some "humans" were gleeful over the fraud. I am now more selective about the humans I value and appreciate my dog even more than before.

Tarzan found one.

There is a lot of documentation of elephants having behaviors that indicate that they search for meaning. Many of the greater whales do this too. Would I hunt an elephant? Hell yeah! I don't think that they have the level of consciousness that we have. A old bull elephant becomes a problem for everybody involved like of like an old bull bison. I would go out hunting whales in the traditional Inupiat style in a heart beat. There are deeper things involved in our interspecies relationships that can not be easily explained. I also, and don't call me racist, think that the present living African and Asian Elephants were not as self-aware as the Wooly Mammoth that existed earlier. There is evidence that some of them lived to be more than 200 years old. I consider hunting to be a religious experience and the universal balance of our position on earth is connected to it. That is not to say that I don't feel regret and respect for the animals that I kill. I know that I respect many of the animals around me more than a lot of people.

IS- Thank you for calling me esteemed. It is the nicest compliment that I have received since being on here in 2006. Most of the time like other Conservative, Christian patriots, everybody ignores me.

I hope so. Otherwise, I've been talking to myself instead of my black lab for 7-1/2 years.

To my knowledge, the Bible says nothing about whether or not a dog or any other animal has a soul. Someone will tell me if I am wrong and forgot something. If you define soul as the mind, will, and emotions, animals obviously have that...we can see it in some more than others.

I don't believe that animals are spiritual beings like God, angels and man......having a spirit, soul, and body. Animals have a soul and body......2 components instead of 3. That is the difference as far as my theology goes and people get them confused.

But yeah, animals are sentient. If you are gonna kill em and grill em, you gotta deal with that. I can and do.

Succulent over sentient...

I wouldn't put it that way. If you look at animals, they might often fight over food, mates, territory or rank, but these fights rarely end fatally when all participants are of the same species. The way I see it, there is an inherent urge to hesitate before anything kills a member of it's own species. This also used to be a thing in war, where you'd have reports of soldiers throwing rocks at each other even though they had their rifles on them. But yes, when you think about it "treat others the way you would like to be treated" is a damn good rule and probably this concept put into words.

Yep. They're silent after i shootem.

They just found out squid will refuse a first morsel of food if they know a better one is coming along.

Maybe the definition should differentiate between awareness (and caring) how oneself will be affected and awareness (and caring) how others will be affected. This would exclude many humans.

There it is. I'll take the company of my Labs over 90+% of humanity, thanks.

I will say I believe that all of the dogs I have had over the years are sentient, perhaps smarter than I a lot of the time..

I reject your definition. The correct definition is much simpler, and most land vertebrates, for example fit the definition.

Your definition of murder is screwy, too. Because something is sentient doesn't mean that it's murder to take its life. Murder means to, without justification, kill a human being. Has nothing to do with non-human beings.

It's been about a year since I lost by dog brother Whitey.

As he lay slowly dying of cancer I layed down with him one last time to say goodbye before my parent's took him to the vet.


He looked me in the eye and made his sly smile, I'll never forget the look in his eye.

He still had that mischievous twinkle just like when he was a pup but he knew it was the end of the trail.


Damnit now I'm crying thinking back on it.

I am a veterinarian and my vote is zero.

I can’t even believe this is being discussed on the fire...my how the times have changed this last score. 🤦🏻‍♂️

I'm thinking those here using sentient are really discussing whether the animals in question are sapient.

Our first dog began to develop seizures when he was about a year old. To keep him from banging into things or hit the floor I'd hold him in my arms to steady him. It only took few sessions for him to figure out that was a good thing. When he felt a seizure coming on, if he could, he would find me for the "love" hug before things got wonky. He died earlier than he should have at 8 yrs old, most likely related to the brain issues.

I'm with ya Sam, getting a little allergy attack myself.

Catfish beg me to throw em back.

I fully understand how you feel.

Case closed, mike drop, shut the door, hang up the phone & get outta town.

We don't see things the way they are.
We see them the way we are.

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.”

― Will Rogers

You eat dogs and cats?

Apes did a fine job of raising Tarzan.



If you read genesis man started out as vegan.

Something told me Piddler and SAC were as smart as a squid.

Yep. Some see themselves going to hell in a hsndbasket and want company.

Those i catch are so happy tbey wag their tails.

Yep.

I dont know about that. Let a buck get another one down....

The young male lions bite through the old males spine.

Male bears often kill the female guarding the young.

Coons kill each......, uh, nevermind.

The lion will lay down with the lamb.

Yep.

You guys should read "The Uplift Wars" series of sifi books.

I would if I needed to...to survive. Have shot plenty.

I think I’ve ate cat before

Disguised as General Tso chicken.


Pretty darn good.

General Tso Chicken...one of my favorites with plenty of cayennes! 😋

Ate cougar. Both four and two legged.

I was thinking about how dumb New Agers were the other day. I keep hearing this term used and always by them in some stupid context. I looked it up under a few definitions and here's a typical example from Dictionary.com

"adjective
having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
characterized by sensation and consciousness"

Of COURSE animals have emotions.
Of COURSE they have memories, perceptions and senses.
They experience sensation and are undou tedly conscious.
Even the dumb squirrels and ants prepare for the future .

Ever read a Bible or spend time outside as a child?
These are facts that a young child should know unless some uber "intelligent" philosophy professor has driven it from him.

You got that new dog Sam.
Gotta raise up your heart somewhat.
It was meant to be when he showed up.
What is his name? I have forgot.



They do somethings that mean I will see you on the other side for sure.
Mannerism,s and looks, little moments in time.

Cookie and Rico tore me up.
Cookie basically told me to let me go dad.
The night before I put him to sleep.
I seen a rabbit on a neighbors lawn .
Walked Cookie in the direction.
He seen it, got up to a trot, head down
Got about 10 ft from it before it bolted.
He barked at it 4 or 5 times .
Tail wagging, eyes full of life gave me a couple of kisses.
Showered praise on him.
That morning I could tell he was saying his goodbyes and see ya later dads too me.
Kisses and leaning on me.
Giving me long looks.


Rico was sandbagging his cancer for me and Cookies sake .
What Rico did hiding his condition until after Cookie died blew me away.
IMO he sacrificed himself for his human and his Alpha he looked up too and took care of when he took over the alpha role from Cookie
Rico gave me a 2 kisses in the end right before falling asleep from the sedation shot took hold before the final shot 10 mins later.
The last time Rico kissed me prior to that was the last time I came home from Romania in 2015.
He would always give me a kiss going and coming back from their.
Dogs know stuff...

Even my vet was crying about Rico and what he did.
Brave dog.
Selfless dog.


Walk by their graves everynight taking Blackjack out to pee.

Both buried facing the North Star
Talk to em both everynight.

Damm eyes watering now....



Baylor our new dog.
I see alot of Cookie and Rico in him in alot of things he does.

14 month old baby huey blood hound weimarainer ( sp) mix
Smart dog.
Human centric hound full of happy go lucky energy.

Him and Blackjack are getting a flanking system down on squirrels and birds now in the backyard bursting outta the kitchen door going out.
Blackjack is the Alpha for the 1st time in his life.
Baylor worships the ground he walks on.
Blackjack is like Pt Boat sized compared to Baylor the young Battleship . LOL!!!
Wont be long before dumbazz rabbits come thru the chain link after green growth and panic trying to get outta the fence with 2 dogs on their azz.

Gonna be a bunny blood bath in the dog gulag soon
Looking forward to it.
Horrifying days for my neighbors again.
They aint seen bunny bloodbaths since Cookie and Sweetheart days
Rico,s mom was sweetheart, his dad is Blackjack.

Bunny Bloodbath 2021.....
Pics or it never happened.
Looking forward to it.
Lol!!!

Fixed ......

I ate dog in korea my 1st of 3 tours.
2 bites .
I regret that to this day.
Hate that I did it actually.

Yeah man, the new rez dog is alright but I'm slow to warm up to her. She's my wife's mini me terrorist...lol


I'm laying here on the couch with the little 15 year old devil maltese/poodle dog.

We are buddies, gonna be hard when he goes but at least he's old and not in his prime.


You are super tuned into your pack!

I try to think more like a dog after reading your observations. Thanks man.

BLM stallions reportedly kill foals in the herd. Grizzly boars are renown for killing and eating cubs if Momma can not protect them.

I would bet other examples abound beyond my personal knowledge base.

Perhaps that means Mother Nature actually meant for us to retroactively abort problematic teenagers.

Apparently, you are no fan of Science Fiction.

Valid point. And accurate.

Young, strong lion drives the Pride lion out, kills every one of the cubs in the Pride. Makes the lioness’ come into heat, so they carry on his genes. They’ve actually observed similar behaviour among feral cat populations.

Nature is rough. No room for sentimentality, whether sentient or not.

I thought the new dog was male.
I'm sorry man
My bad
What is her name.


Baylor is a ladies man dog big time.
When the daughter and wife are home he is with them.
Funny when both leave .
They bring him down to me
Then I gotta watch him fret and do nascar laps crying.
Then comes the 2 or 3 cries right in front of me and the hound howl of my women left me.
Then its I'm a toy poddle and getting in your lap mode.

Let him and Blackjack out couple times.
Baylor goes into watch how fast I can run and direction ckamge mode.
Then its him and Blackjack cruise patrol the fenceline and lets fugg with neighbor dogs and tease them time.



Dogs and Humans evolved together.
Alotta people dont see that connection.

I cant imagine not realizing that like many people.

One of my earliest memories I was probably 4 or 5 at the most.
At a park in one of those sit in chair swings and a grey med sized dog with curly hair going back and forth happily barking at me .
Dad took me outta the swing and that dog went into slobber hound mode kissing me wagging its tail and I was laughing the entire time.

We got a pup full size collie male Lassie when I was 7 in 1970
Begging my parents for a pup.
My dog..
And I took care of him unlike most kids leaving on the parents

I went 8 yrs without a dog 85 to 93
Single soldier in the army traveling the planet
Lassie died in 85 while I was at Ft Carson.
Last time I seen him was Dec 83 to Jan 84 after 11 series OSUT when I was home on leave before I went to Carson.

Me and Khan got a Female black lab pup Sonja and a white hemmingway extra claws kitten Elmo in late 93 bout 6 months after we got married.
Them 2 are buried out front also along with all the others.
Sweetheart, Rico, Cookie, Sonja dogs

Elmo, Simba, Sampson Cats


All 3 daughters have dogs.
Lindsey has Baylor hound mix
Alexis has Hope and Tucker border collies
Nicole has Brady red bone coon hound.

They were raised with pups that became their growing up dogs.
Now they have their 1st dogs of their own.

Khan had dogs growing up on the rez up home.

No one ever said Rover can't be man's
best friend and the main course at the
the same time ..

8 weeks old, first or second day at our house.

Surprised the scheidt out of himself. Not sure about "sentient", but he for sure knew he was looking at another puppy:



renegade, Dandee is like your new one. Momma's dog. I'm his playmate, along with Breeze. He will sit out here on nice days watching the road that the "food lady" just drove off on her way to town. If it's not nice out, he's on the sofa looking out the picture window.



Sentient or not, animals are food for something or other. Sometimes for me. And I appreciate them for it.

Life would be lame without dogs!


I'd never eat dog but wouldn't have a problem bbq-ing a fricken horse....lol



New dog is Goldie with a y, aka Goldy on her tag.

Musta been into the cheeba when I ordered...lol

Nothing wrong with that Sam. But I am opposite.

I have had a few really great stock dogs. They can save hours getting mavericks out of the brush pockets instead of tying the horse and crawling in on your hands and knees.

But I never had a dog carry my tired ass off a mountain when I was too exhausted to put one foot in front of another, the reigns tied around the saddle horn because it's too dark to see the trail, during the parts when the eyes are even open.

I do not enjoy it, but I can shoot any dog and put him in a hole when the time comes. But it flat hurts when I have to put a good horse down.

Saw dog on the menu in Shanghai. Knew I'd never be able to look my dog in they eye if I ate it.

The mt. lion was pretty damn good. Had the back strap. Was like a mix between veal and pork. Some of the best game meat I've ever eaten.

Does going down on a bitch count as eating dog or cat?

I always figured on trying it over and over to make sure.

This old fella (16 years and a month in that pic) and I had an agreement. We were running buddies, drinking buddies. My first dog of my own, not a family dog.

I agreed to feed him, give him a nice place to sleep, take him most everywhere with me (including the bar), make sure he had paid health care (he was a free pup, but I figure by the end of his life he cost me a good $3K in stitches etc) and in general a life befitting a dog of his ilk.

His end of it was if we were ever out in the woods, starving and freezing to death in a blizzard, I was gonna eat his bones and wear that nice fur coat of his........................and not vice-versa.

He lived a good long life and we never got stuck in that blizzard I'm happy to say.

Do you have a copy of this that you could send me - I think I've misplaced mine:




Thanks

Not if they are really annoying it isn't.

Damn, it's almost like some people think humans aren't animals! For phucqk's sake - that is hilarious.

That is a given...it is the sentient bit that is up for debate.


I am not actually sure it applies to all of humanity, not so much self awareness...more awareness outside of self.

i have adopted probably in the mid teens golden retrievers
I just lost my ol pal max a couple of weeks ago.l
he was a refugee from oklahoma, got him at about one year, was 13 when he died.
subject to seizures the whole time.
I could see it in his eyes, we both knew. that night i didn't hear his uneasy breathing, he had passed while laying out with his head on his paws. God, i miss every one of them, hope they are waiting for me.

I think one thing that distinguishes humans is that they have the ability to think about their own thought process. I think we're alone in that regard.

MIL came up for a visit and brought their new wheaten scottie pup, Gilly. Our 5 year old Airedale, Freya, is jealous as hell of the attention the pup is getting. It's been interesting watching the interaction over a couple of days.

- - Pussy?