Monster of a handgun. The Third was the perfected Dragoon (the final stage in its development from the Walker, to the First Dragoon, and then the Second), which the US Army bought lots of starting in 1851, and was only replaced with the adoption of the Colt 1860 Army in that year.

Function was flawless, apart from having to clear exploded cap debris a couple of times (which was a quick and easy matter). Very happy with it.

With 40 grains of FFFg Goex black powder pushing .454 lead balls, the recoil felt about like shooting an S&W Model 27 or 28 with full house, heavy, .357 Magnums. Different, however in producing huge plumes of smoke with each shot.

Note: The Dragoons were only exceeded in power by cartridge guns with the introduction of the S&W Registered Magnum in .357 Magnum.

Sights are nicely regulated on this gun, placing the holes just a little high, but nicely centered, at 10 yards.

Uberti made a good one in this particular specimen, and no latch drop, which had been a problem for some of Uberti's Dragoons in years past. They seem to have resolved that. The latch holds the loading lever securely under heavy recoil.

Here she is ready to fire, forty grain spout installed on the flask.



And for comparison, here she is next to an 1851 Navy. It's a giant of a handgun, meant to be carried in pommel holsters on your saddle, not on your belt (Officers who wanted a pistol to carry in a holster on their belt acquired an 1851 Navy .36).



This is a six shot group from ten yards, standing, off-hand, one-handed.



And this one is from standing, off-hand, two-handed. This is one heavy gun, so a two-handed hold is quite welcomed.



Great fun. Now to clean her up.

A true horse pistol.Looks nice.

Nice!

I enjoy seeing your range reports with various guns!

Awesome piece, and looks like it shoots great.

Cool TRW ! Always wanted one of those!!!

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Cool! I do love shooting these cap & ball revolvers.

A couple years ago I started using the foaming “wipe out” to clean them, on the advice of another BP shooter. Just spray it on everything except the grips (will mess up oil finishes on wood), give it some time to eat the fouling & wipe it off. It leaves behind a preservative residue.

Thanks. That's, in fact, what Captain Walker requested from Colt, i.e., a revolver roughly along the lines of the Patterson series (the revolver series that sunk Colt, initially, as a gun maker, due to low sales, despite having been liked by the Texas Rangers), but holding one additional round (six in total), and with sufficient power to bring down a horse with one shot, thus .44 caliber accepting a huge charge of powder in the chambers, vs the Patterson, the most powerful of which was chambered in .36 caliber.

Of course, Walker requested other modifications, too, such as a trigger guard, which the Patterson lacked.

In order to make it this powerful, though, due to the state of metallurgy at the time, the Walker (and the Dragoons) needed to be massive and heavy guns.

Thanks.

Love that movie.

Sweet! I just bought this. Been wanting a Schofield ever since Unforgiven was released. Taylor & Co Schofield 7 inch barrel, charcoal blue barrel and cylinder, case harden frame. The charcoal blue has a deep luster to it. I have plenty revolvers in 45 Colt, Colt SAA's, USFA's, Ruger Vaquero's, I wanted something a little different so I bought the Schofield in 44-40 WCF.

I bet that gun would teach a Comanche some manners.

Beautiful, Grizz. Wouldn't mind having one like that, myself.

LOL. Yep. In fact, I believe the scene scroll marked on the cylinder is that of US Cavalry forces routing a bunch of Comanche.

Nice Schofield!

I'm sure you know, but that fire bluing comes off pretty easily.

I think it's by far the nicest bluing there is. Too bad it's not more resilient.

Legendary TX Ranger Jack Hays was the first to demonstrate the effectiveness of Colt’s Revolver on Comanches at Enchanted Rock. With his Colt Patterson.

It’s too bad Ranger Walker was killed before he got to try out the model named after him.

On a related note, I consider Samuel Colt and John Browning to be two of the most important Inventors EVER.

DANG IT TRW, your gonna cause me to go out and buy a Black Powder Revolver. 🤠

LOL. Absolutely. Do it.

Did not know that. I plan on shooting the hell out of it anyway.

So if it is a little high at 10yds it is probably dead on at 25 30 ish.
Is 40gr the max load???

That is a awesome revolver you got.


Cash purchase of 2 of em might be a good idea.

Do they switch out cylinders somewhat simliar to a 58 rem??

No background check or 4473 form either.

Fugg a mook up with one of those stuck in his face .
0 paper trail to it......

3rd Model Dragoon is on my short list. There's a brand new Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon up on GunPoker right now 475 from a dealer in Texas but the prick wont sell to California which is annoying since no FFL would be required he could ship the revolver straight to me WTF?

TRH
Was their any info in the owners manual about use of BP substitute powders.
Pryodex
777
Ect ect ect????

Dude is a moron.

Could just ship and label it as lathe parts and disassrmble it if he is that paranoid....

I've got an original 3rd Model Dragoon. Anyone know what it might be worth?

The 3rd Dragoon is a lot more massive than the 1860 Army. Metallurgy must have improved a lot.

IIRC the 1860 Army uses 40 grains of FFFg too.

A la Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider? No, that's a feature of the Remington, but not the Colt, which requires you to knock a wedge out, and then remove the barrel, before you can remove the cylinder.

As for the charge, I was loading 40 grains and it came up pretty high, to the point I could only compress the balls down just a little under the top edge of the chambers, so I don't know how you could put much more in there and still have room for the balls. Maybe a little more, but that's it.

Two would be cool.

No doubt!!!

I never consult owners manuals, LOL. But, seriously, I think pistol grade Pyrodex, Tripple Se7ven, and other black powder substitutes should be fine. You can't put enough of it in the chambers, plus the balls, to blow it up. Just no smokeless.

So a 58 would be a faster revolver to reload .
Thats what I wondering about the colt models and their breakdown.

2 58,s and a buncha ready to rock cylinders.

Perfect.......


What about BP substitutes???
Any info on yea or nay in the owners manual for those uberti,s???

I’m guessing quite a bit if it’s in good condition!

Rene, I’m pretty sure Pyrodex is the only substitute powder you can use in a cap and ball Revolver.

Oh, heck yeah. The Dragoons are about twice the size of an 1860. I can imagine how welcome the 1860 was when it replaced the Dragoons. Yes, it was due to improved metallurgy that allowed less steel to fire the heavier load behind a .454 ball or bullet in the 1860.

I don't think you can quite stuff 40 grains in an 1860, though, and still have room for balls. Maybe more like 35 grains max.

That really sucks. You could get a relative in another state to buy it for ya. 😜

I highly doubt it’s illegal to ship a BP Revolver to California.

Colt does make a heavy gun!

No Tripple Se7en FFFg? Why not?

"That's a fact." - Appaloosa.

I had a Colt Walker in my hand at a Puyallup gun show ~ 12 years ago. The owner was renting a table just to show it. He said he had been offered $100k and did not take it.

I have been very happy with my Uberti peacemaker clone and my Uberti 1885Win clone.

But percussion caps are sometimes problems. The European caps can be different. The European hammers may not be deburred and pull the cap off the nipple. The European guns may allow caps to fall in the hammer slot in the frame and jam the gun.

I have a Colt 1849 Pattern made in 1854 in 0.31" caliber I paid $445 at a pawn shop in 03/01/17.
I have nursed the blob of rust with missing parts back to health with parts I fitted and timed the revolver.

When I get a new cap and ball revolver, I routinely change out the nipples to those made by Slixshot. That solves any cap pulling issue.

Had an Uberti Walker some years back . . . They and the Dragoons are HEAVY shootin' irons, to say the least. Have you shot yours at dusk yet? Impressive fire flash !!! 18" or so beyond the muzzle. One of only two guns I have sold that I wish I hadn't. Good shooting, BTW.

Thanks. That sounds cool. I will have to try it at dusk.

Especially the Western ones.

That’s pretty neat. What’s the weight of those balls?

A .454 ball is only about 140 grains.

But they penetrate deep and make big holes.

Ok. Yeah I never paid much attention to black powder stuff.

You can use conical bullets in cap and ballers too. I don't remember the velocities possible but the conical bullets are quite a bit heavier than round balls.

Yes, they are, but people don't realize the effectiveness of just plain old lead round balls. Elmer Keith had it on good authority from folks who were there that they were preferred by many lawmen and such in the Old West, due to observing their superior effectiveness, even over conicals.

I have this somewhat rare 2nd gen Colt all stainless 1860 Army. I actually have two of these, this one in the photo that came without a box that I basically stole from my LGS (They didn't know what they had) and a second one that came with the box, book, everything I won at a Little John's Auction. I did well on this one also even with the auction premium. Both show as unfired, unturned, and unmolested...

That’s pretty cool !!!

Nice. I always wanted one of the reissue Colt's. I need to get the Ruger Old Army out to shoot it.

That's one big hunk of steel Hawkeye. Very nice. Congrats.

Shame on you!
I'm sure you can "fix" that "unfired" situation.

The "Original Magnum" overlooked by the gun haters, a couple of loaded cylinders, and 44 Magnum velocity whats not to like? Capable of being shipped direct to your door, with no paperwork.

Nice. Is that a First or Second Dragoon?

Walker.

Fun to shoot but reloading takes a while.

+1

You have an awesome collection of firearms

Gatofeo
Member
Joined:Feb 17, 2004
Messages:431
Location:Remote Utah desert
The late gun writer Elmer Keith (1898 - 1983) wore his first revolver at the age of 14, in 1912. It was a Colt 1851 Navy in .36 caliber.
He grew up in Helena, Montana. At that time, the area had many veterans of the Civil War, Yanks and Rebs. These men taught him to shoot and how to load his cap and ball revolver.
In his classic 1955 book, "Sixguns," Keith includes a chapter about shooting the old cap and ball sixguns. The book is still printed today, I believe. Though some of it is dated, it's still good reading.
Keith obviously loved the old cap and balls, though they were more troublesome to shoot than modern, cartridge guns with smokeless powder.
What he reports about the deadliness of the lead ball will, I hope, dispel the myth that these revolvers were not nearly as deadly as the cartridge revolvers that replaced them.
Listen to what Keith has to say:

"For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity," Keith wrote. "Maximum loads give these slugs fairly high velocity from a 7-1/2 inch barrel gun."

Keith knew two Civil War cavalrymen who had seen an enormous amount of battle in the Civil War. Major R. E. Stratton fought in the Confederacy's 1st Texas Regiment. Samuel H. Fletcher fought in the Union's 2nd Illinois Cavalry.
"Both Maj. Stratton and Sam Fletcher told me the .36 Navy with full loads was a far better man killer than any .38 Special they had ever seen used in gun fights," Keith wrote.
"Maj. Stratton said that for a man stopper he preferred the round ball with chamber full of FFG to the pointed conical bullet," Keith wrote. "Sam Fletcher also told me he preferred a pure lead round ball in his Navy Colts with chamber full of black powder, to the issued conical ball load.
"Fletcher claimed the round ball dropped enemy cavalrymen much better and took all the fight out of them, whereas the pointed bullet at times would only wound and leave them fighting.
"Fletcher stated, however, that when foraging and shooting cattle for meat, the pointed bullet was the best for body shots that had to be taken where penetration was needed. But that on all frontal shots on beef, the old round ball was plenty good and would reach the brain --- even on bulls.
"Major Stratton claimed that while the big Dragoon was slower for quick-draw work, once you had it in your hand it was the best cavalry pistol of all," Keith wrote. "It would drop a horse as easily as a man with its .45-caliber round or conical ball and 50 grains of FFG black powder.

"Many a buffalo was killed from horseback with the heavy Colt Dragoons using the round ball and 50 grains of FFG black powder. The big guns would drive the ball well through the lungs of a running buffalo at a few feet range. I had one old Dragoon at one time that had killed a number of the big California grizzlies. The owner used to bait them and sit up in a tree above the bait on moonlight nights and shoot down into the back of their heads."

"A lot of fun and good shooting can be had from muzzle loading sixguns. True, they are dirty and throw a big cloud of smoke, but that same smoke cloud or screen was often an advantage to the old gunfighter as he could see through his own gun smoke much better than an adversary some distance away could, and for this reason many of the old-timers preferred black powder for a sixgun."

"In a low ceilinged room, a few shots from a black powder sixgun lays down such a smoke screen that you can only see when you are down next to the floor. At night, the blast of the first shot would put out all the kerosene lamps from concussion."

"Percussion pistols in good working condition arenot just century old relics; they are very deadly weapons. Great grand dad was far from being disarmed or helpless with a cap and ball pistol, fully loaded and capped, swinging from his hip."

Oh crap. How could I not have seen that unsupported loading lever. I must have been tired.

You get quick. Not quick enough to get back into a gunfight, but quick enough to get plenty of shooting in, and besides, the loading is half the fun anyway with these guns.

Hickok45 puts me to shame on that front.

Yep.

Interesting side note, back then there were plenty of the old ones to be had, and lots of them were shot regularly still by hobbyists (today, those guns are cherished collectables, and few if any shoot them), so there wasn't at that time a motive for anyone to make shootable reproductions.

Another good thread Hawkeye.

I picked up a Colt "C" model Dragoon recently. The serial numbers on this one run concurrently with the original production numbers. Currently it's unfired but that my change. It didn't come with the box and it has some minor handling marks so I guess it's not really a collector item, but for $500 "out the door" I couldn't resist. I was at Scheel's and they had #11 percussion caps in stock so I picked up a half dozen tins on a whim. I'm thinking if you see 'em you best grab them,

Nice. There's a Colt-reissue ("Black Box?") 2nd Dragoon (miss-marked on the price tag "Walker") at the local pawn shop. Looks a bit used, but in nice shape. They're asking, as I recall, $479.00 for it. A $400.00 offer would likely acquire it.

PS The Colt re-issue Dragoons (at least prior to the Signature Series) were known to be over bore, i.e., requiring bullets larger than the standard .454.

It's my understanding that the "Signature" series were not produced by Colt, merely licensed by Colt. If memory serves me "Iver Johnson" produced them. You perked my curiosity about the bore size, so I measured a cylinder and it measured .4475 using a cheap caliper. As long as when pressing the ball into the cylinder if a ring of peeled back lead occurs then you are good to go. Some folks smear Vaseline over the loaded ball to prevent cross firing adjacent cylinders. I don't see a problem as long as the lead ring forms when compressing the ball in the chamber. A felt wad is sometimes used between the ball and powder charge, though not necessary to me.

I use a "grease" formula that's equal parts lamb tallow, beeswax, and olive oil. Works great. Not only prevents chain fires, but also lubes the bullets to keep the gun running much longer without a cleaning, and serves the additional function of sealing out moisture when the guns are left loaded for long periods of time. But, yes, you should have a good ring of lead drop out after pressing in the ball.

You can see my home-made ball grease covering the loaded chambers on this 1851 Navy.

Is Uberti the way to go? I’ve always wanted an 1851 Navy.

If money is no object than the Colt Signature Series is the way to go for both a shooter and something that will hold its value. Uberti's are probably as good and a good Armi is as good as an Uberti, same with Pietta. For brand new guns, I think the only choice is Uberti or Pietta.

For strictly shooting where absolute realism is not required, those stainless guns like the one pictured previously here, would be great. They don't look too unrealistic either since most of the old guns quickly lost their finish if used in the field very much. You could also polish the stainless so it looked like a nickeled or even silver plated gun.

Betcha those Colt Signature's are made by Uberti.

I think they make the best cap and ball revolvers today, yes.

Someone's gonna say sumthin' about "homemade ball grease"...

But it ain't gonna be me...

The major parts were indeed made by Uberti, and sold to Colt Black Powder unfinished. Colt Black Powder then finished them, and fitted them into guns under the supervision of Colt agents at the factory. I think I remember reading, in fact, that the Signature Series guns had their final finishes applied at the regular Colt factory. At any rate, the Signature Series Colts are no less real Colts than the Miroku Winchesters and Brownings are real Winchesters and Brownings. My Signature Series Colt Model 1860 Army came in a Colt box, with Colt paper work and owner's manual. Nothing on or in the box suggests it's anything less than a Colt product.

My Colt Signature Series 1860 Army:

I know. I was thinking about making mention of that inevitability when I first typed the words.

I'm not up on what Colt called their re-issues at what point in time. Sometimes you see them called Signature Series, other times, Black Powder series, etc. When they first came out, Phil Spangenbarger of Guns and Ammo, did an article on them and he said they were actually made by Iver Johnson, then in New York. I've heard later claims that Uberti or San Marcos made the parts and then Colt assembled the guns and finished them in Connecticut. They are finely finished weapons, whatever the case may be.

FWIW, some have claimed that Uberti made some 3rd gen SAA's too...

Colt '51 Navy re-issue along with holster made by Douglass Kidd, original US model 1860 Cavalry sabre and my Grandpa's saddle.



Same gun on my old, old rolltop desk.

I know for a fact that Uberti made and shipped "some" parts to Colt for assembly. How much of those era 1873's were Uberti is anyone's guess. I think the Uberti parts percentage varied, depending on how many parts Colt had, or ran out of.

I also found an interesting article on the signature series.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/ar...d-generation-signature-series-1851-navy/




It seems Colt has a pretty long history of using Uberti parts.

I know approximately 85% of Uberti/Colt parts in the 1873 model will interchange. Of course lots of parts still need hand fitting/finishing.

That's a London Model. Blued steel instead of brass trigger guard and grip frame.

"The 3rd Generation Signature Series gun shown here has never been fired. Unfortunately, the original cardboard box with foam insert is missing. Nonetheless, it is worth $650-$800, its value being in its cachet as an authentic Colt. Thus, it is substantially more valuable than a non-Colt replica of the same gun in similar condition."

That says it all, right there. The 3rd Generation Signature Series Colts are authentic Colts, not replicas.

About a year ago, my LGS had a NIB 3rd Gen Colt Factory Engraved 1860 Commemorative Model in the Factory Wooden Box. Could have picked it up for probably $600

Just couldn’t bare to let myself buy it because it was the Ulysses S Grant Model. My Southern Civil War Veteran ancestors would have disowned me. 😬

You should have bought it and had the phrase "Kiss my Rebel di*k" engraved along side Grant's face.

LOL !

I have several percussion revolvers by Ruger, Uberti and Navy Arms. I like the .36 cal. 1851 marked Navy Arms the best. It is a good shooter. It was worked over by a buy down in Georgia. It is accurate as any center fire pistol I have shot and other than the fact that you would be dead in a pitched battle if it was all you had as reloading is slow even if you are fast.

I have read that most officers in the civil war carried three revolvers with them so they had a chance should things get hot.

Bill Hickock was still using a percussion revolver when he was killed in 1876 in Deadwood. They said he didn't trust the brass cartridges of the day that were used in the 1873 Colt Peacemaker.

There are mixed reports of what Hickock was carrying by 1876. Most sources claim he was carrying a couple of Navy conversions...Richards or Richards-Mason types...38's. On his person though, was a model 2 single action Smith and Wesson in 32 RF which was a favorite of officers in the WBTS.