Here’s the deal: Allis chalmers 6060 4 cylinder diesel. Fuel tank is above engine, gravity fed no tank fuel pump. I ran it out of fuel by accident - no problem filled it up, bled the fuel lines and filter all the way to the injector pump and it started a little rough, smoothed out and ran for 10 minutes fine. Then it slowly lost power and RPM’s and stalled out. From then on it starts and runs briefly before idling down and stalling on its own. The longer it sits the longer it will run before idling down and out. OK… starving for fuel so I checked and cleaned every line and fitting from the tank through the filter and to the injector pump including the bleed fitting at the injector pump and a new fuel filter. No change - it will start, rev up to full throttle, then slowly RPM down until it stalls. The longer you let it sit in between the longer it will run at high RPM before idling down to a stall - but only up to a few minutes max. I don’t know much about injector pumps, but maybe air in there and it’s not priming correctly?

You might want to change the filter as whatever debris that was in the tank and lines might be obstructing the fuel flow. So while it may be air it might also be debris in the filter

Sounds like feul line obstruction. My tractor did that once and a wasp had gotten in a feul line

Most likely there is a return line from the injectors to the fuel tank and it is plugged.

There's always crud in the bottom a tank. If you run out of fuel, you'll be sucking the crud off the bottom and that will clog a filter. Clean or replace it.

Might have a screen somewhere.

Check your tank vent too.

and check the tank outlet too , with it running out , some trash may have settled in there

I don't know schidt about ag equipment, but if you have a 433T engine, they are notorious for flex ring failure plugging the return line. They used the 433T on Koehring log loaders. After you have double checked EVERYTHING to do with fuel flow... I'd bet flex ring failure is where your problem lies.

If you’re sure the supply lines aren’t plugged, these two guys right here beat me to my suggestion. This is a common issue on the 100 series Allis’, I don’t know anything about the 60 series.

Thanks guys, been through the lines, outlet, filter etc. several times looking for blockages and crud. Already tried the tank vent. Will try the return line next!

Two links, same issues, all say clean supply lines, then look at return line like mentioned above.

https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/ran-6060-out-of-fuel-i-think_topic152887.html

Injection Pump Ed on this link is a pump guru

https://www.allischalmers.com/forum/1981-allis-6080-surging-issues_topic138190.html

Also, if that's a 433T, it may have a Roosa Master wannabe injection pump made by Stanadyne. They fail frequently enough that every fuel injection shop in the US can re-do them for cheap, about 10 years ago, they were only 550 bucks your pump, 650 exchange with your good core. Now listen up...if you pull the pump yourself, learn how to time that sonofabitch before you take it off. Over and out.

Try bleeding fuel lines all the way to injectors

Break a fuel line close to your injector pump. Wrap an airhose/blow gun with a rag and put some pressure in your fuel tank thru the fuel cap. If you cannot get fuel to flow out where you broke the line you have and obstruction. If that is the case blow backwards thru your fuel lines until it seems to clear.

You are tired of hearing from me, another thing, (knowing nothing about ag applications) every Roosa Master/Stanadyne I ever worked on has the fuel transfer pump in the housing on the far end opposite the drive end...and there is a FUEL INLET SCREEN in the end fitting, as insurance against filter failure. Take a look at it before going further. The long sitting period/ better revs makes me think it is related. Do not try to run the engine too much until you find a problem, the high pressure plungers will score and possibly seize, they depend on a generous flow of fuel for lubrication and cooling.

The crud in the filter is not visible.


Are you sure that there is no fuel pump as gravity feeding would not run a constant pressure not to mention that it may be illegal. The pump may be inside the tank and may have it's own partially clogged filter

I don’t know 60 series, but the generation before that was purely gravity without question.

Meaning no lift pump? Shirley there is an injector pump?

Gravity flow to the injector pump (as stated in the OP) Our buddy Dusty is saying it’s illegal and impossible to not have a fuel pump such as in the tank which couldn’t be further from the truth.

And don’t call me Shirley. 🤣🤣

I’ve never banged a Shirley

The pressure of gravity is a variable so the pressure of a full tank would be higher than an almost empty one, seems to me that some kind of fuel pump is a necessity even if it is a mechanical part in the engine as opposed to an electric tank mounted unit

You’re a smart ‘Cat. You should know better than listen to dustcunt.

Check for debris inside the fuel tank. ( a leaf, paper towel... ) I had the clear cellophane wrapper off a fuel filter block the outlet port once. SOB died on the freeway. It would fire back up, then slowly die. It was hard to see even with a flashlight. drove me nuts until I found it.
Something is restricting the flow of fuel....

Will you explain to him there is no pump in the system beyond the injector pump, that multiple of us, including the OP, have discussed as potentially coming apart clogging the return line? He isn’t comprehending. Maybe I type to fast?

Actually an injector pump is a fuel pump that regulates the pressure. Anyone tried injector cleaner, or tested the pressure at each injector to test for the correct pressure to each cylinder

This. Air trapped in the high pressure lines to the injectors will cause foaming and stalling.

According to the post there are no high pressure lines, just gravity feed

Exactly how do you call a Roosa Master a pump and the Stanadyne pump a wannabe? They are the same pump (in this case probably a DB2), made by the same people, in the same building, on the same equipment, in the same town (was Windsor, CT; until manufacturing was moved in 2011).

FYI: Roosa Master & Stanadyne are the same company, with the original company name being Hartford Machine Screw (HMS).

The issue with the pump is that the governor retaining ring has deteriorated over the years and the pellethane material (RING MATERIAL) has broken up and pieces of it are beginning to block the return on the pump. As the pressure builds up inside the pump, the engine will stall due to a no fuel delieved condition caused by high housing pressure. With the engine off, pressure will subside, the material falls back into the governor housing, unblocking the return and allowing the engine to start again....until the crap is picked back up and re-blocks the fuel return. the best bet it is you have the pump rebuild. You can do it yourself, but make sure you have the tools needed, and beware that if you break anything you might be SOL, as some of the parts are becoming obsolete (cam pin screw & removal tool on some of the older DB pump is a big one). Also, I don't remember if the Allis pump has a face cam on it, and if it does make sure you mark its position before removing it.

If you decide to pull the pump, make sure you have the engine timed correctly, typically TDC. Also be-careful cleaning the inside of the pump, particularly the head & rotor as they are a lap fit clearance, into the millionths of an inch (the do not touch each other even though it looks it and they require a film of fuel on each other at all times).

There is a hack work around, but in time you will only hurt the pump and it performance and I suggest not doing it.

The Standyne pump works fine on a gravity system as the DB pumps do have some sucking abilities, though a mechanical or electric lift pump is preferred.

I'm having a similar problem in my Kubota tractor. I'm pretty sure it is a fuel problem and replaced one of the two fuel filters and will be replacing the second one tomorrow. After talking to the mechanic at the Kubota dealer this morning he was saying something about sometimes a small piece of debris like a pebble or something will fall in the tank and block the fuel line so the fuel can't be sucked out by the fuel pump or in your case by gravity in sufficient amounts to keep the engine running. After he said they were a month out on repairs and it was a four hour ticket to remove the fuel tank I decided this is one I'll be fixing myself...

Not is this case. Engine runs then stalls, then will re-start. If there is air trapped in the lines the engine will die and not re-start until the air is bled out. It won't keep starting and stalling.

The OP that there is no fuel pump just a gravity system. Seems that someone really does not know what they are looking at

I stole these picks off google as I no longer have access to my old engineering R&D pictures.

New Pellethane retaining ring:

What is left of a governor ring:

Reading comprehension isn’t your forte is it?

The OP talked injector pump.

I talked injector pump.

Flint Locke talked injector pump.

45_100 talked return line blockage which is typically a failure of injector pump components.

Then you respond that you can’t believe there isn’t a fuel pump….Maybe in the tank or something and it’s blocked….

The only discussion of gravity was about lines to the injection pump. Which, we all know, is a pump. “Injection pump”. It has the word pump in it. Pumps build pressure.

Good luck to the OP. Sorry for muddying up your post.

Sackett, maybe just a bad run of luck, but the old original RoosaMasters on John Deere elec gen sets would get 25 to 30,000 hours service. After the overhaul, I replaced the old RM's with Stanadynes, (same OEM part group number, direct fit) not all, many failed at 8 to 14,000 hrs. I'm not a pump guy, but it made me wonder. Stanadynes on 580 Case backhoes fail pretty frequently too. But, about the same time, EPA changed #2 diesel specs to get a cleaner burn so maybe that was a factor.

Most diesel engines with a Stanadyne rotary fuel injection pump have a mechanical or electric fuel pump that will supply fuel to the Stanadyne pump, typically around 5psi. The older Deere engines have mechanical lift pumps that look identical to a Delco unit on a small block chevy engine to supply fuel under pressure vto the DB pump. The newer Deere engines have electrical supply pumps in the tank. I believe other companies such as Allis & older Ford's used gravity to supply fuel to the Stanadyne fuel injection pump.

LOL, actually if the injector pump failed the unit would not start at all.

Try again Mr. Nuclear

The low sulfur fuels of today suck with regards to lubricity, which a rotary pump needs (standyne & lucas). Not trying to push a product, but the standyne performance formula additives do work and they are OEM approved.

What are they failing for? Seizures? Or the same issues the Op is having?

This applies to vehicles used on the roads, both diesel and gas. Note part D. Since the OP is talking about a farm implement, none of this necessarily applies.


§ 393.65 All fuel systems.

(a) Application of the rules in this section. The rules in this section apply to systems for containing and supplying fuel for the operation of motor vehicles or for the operation of auxiliary equipment installed on, or used in connection with, motor vehicles.

(b) Location. Each fuel system must be located on the motor vehicle so that -

(1) No part of the system extends beyond the widest part of the vehicle;

(2) No part of a fuel tank is forward of the front axle of a power unit;

(3) Fuel spilled vertically from a fuel tank while it is being filled will not contact any part of the exhaust or electrical systems of the vehicle, except the fuel level indicator assembly;

(4) Fill pipe openings are located outside the vehicle's passenger compartment and its cargo compartment;

(5) A fuel line does not extend between a towed vehicle and the vehicle that is towing it while the combination of vehicles is in motion; and

(6) No part of the fuel system of a bus manufactured on or after January 1, 1973, is located within or above the passenger compartment.

(c) Fuel tank installation. Each fuel tank must be securely attached to the motor vehicle in a workmanlike manner.

(d) Gravity or syphon feed prohibited. A fuel system must not supply fuel by gravity or syphon feed directly to the carburetor or injector.

(e) Selection control valve location. If a fuel system includes a selection control valve which is operable by the driver to regulate the flow of fuel from two or more fuel tanks, the valve must be installed so that either -

(1) The driver may operate it while watching the roadway and without leaving his/her driving position; or

(2) The driver must stop the vehicle and leave his/her seat in order to operate the valve.

(f) Fuel lines. A fuel line which is not completely enclosed in a protective housing must not extend more than 2 inches below the fuel tank or its sump. Diesel fuel crossover, return, and withdrawal lines which extend below the bottom of the tank or sump must be protected against damage from impact. Every fuel line must be -

(1) Long enough and flexible enough to accommodate normal movements of the parts to which it is attached without incurring damage; and

(2) Secured against chafing, kinking, or other causes of mechanical damage.

(g) Excess flow valve. When pressure devices are used to force fuel from a fuel tank, a device which prevents the flow of fuel from the fuel tank if the fuel feed line is broken must be installed in the fuel system.
[36 FR 15445, Aug. 14, 1971, as amended at 37 FR 4341, Mar. 2, 1972; 37 FR 28752, Dec. 29, 1972]

Tell that to everybody that has a flex ring starting to come apart, obscuring the return line back to the tank, and has a tractor doing exactly as the OP has.

Still more likely that the system is dirty as the issue began after the user ran out of fuel, however air in the system or a bad prime could still be the cause.

Priming the beast

Nope. Governor weight retaining ring. After -40 years, it has disintegrated into small black pieces that are floating inside the entire pump. Quite common on 40+ year old pumps. The newer DB pumps did away with the ring and went with a different design H&R.

Air in the system, probably not either, as the Stanadyne pumps can eat quite a bit of air and still pump fuel out of them. Plus it starts and stalls. Air in the system/lines won't run/act that way.

This. Another thing, is the fuel cap vented? If yes, is the vent open....

They don't pull straight off the bottom boys.

Gravity alone takes the fuel from the tank (vented cap is open) through the filter (changed 2 times since this started) and to the injector pump (cleaned lines and fittings to this point). Have verified good flow and fully bled from the tank to the injector pump. Tractor will start and run smoothly yet briefly with no smoke so I haven’t yet bled the pressure lines to the injectors thinking it must not be that. Will tackle the return line next and post results back here. Thanks to all for the help so far. Edit to add that the petcock where the fuel line exits the tank has clogged with debris before in this same scenario so I started there, with no luck, and hence the troubleshooting now.

It sounds like your return line is plugged up. I have been working on Diesels and heavy equipment for 45 years.
Remove the return line from pump to injectors. Crank and see if it runs for awhile. If it doesn't take the fitting the return line screwed to out of on top of pump. try again. if it runs now take compressed air to check ball in fitting to remove debris from check ball. You can reinstall and go back to work until the flex ring throws another piece into check ball. If it works you need to remove pump soon and have it rebuilt!!!

Get the gasket then replace, seems this needs to be done anyway. Check the compression, injectors might need cleaning and pumps can quit. A mechanic can do tests before throwing parts at the job, at least a good mechanic will.

Southern Oregon Fuel Injection is who I dealt with, good people and good work at fair pricing, but sketchy details when the pumps came back from them. Flex rings were mentioned, 2 or 3 stuck or burred high pressure plungers, a cam ring, and two times on the Allis's, the in housing transfer pump that nobody says exists had broken vanes and scored pump body. If I recall correctly (I had 16 gen sets in 8 locations) the brittle deteriorating flex rings had similar symptoms to the OP. It would fire up, come up to 1800 rpm then the low cycles safety switch would trip and it would decelerate, took me a while to figure it out, finally I bypassed all the safety shutdown switches, bingo, dim bulb in brain goes on. My info is old, I lost the generator maintenance contract to the John Deere dealer , Pape' 10 years ago. Just another little guy eaten by a big company.

Transfer pump......yes the injection pump has one, but the engine typically has one as well (looks like a SBC mechanical gas fuel pump on the block) which is what 99% of the people are referring to. Broken pieces in the TP assembly is a new one for me. I have seen worn and scored, mainly due to poor fuel and/or water.

Stuck or scored plungers are due to poor fuel....no lubricity. They, like the head and rotor are a high precision part (think millionths of an inch clearance).

Flex ring, governor retaining, pellathane ring.......they due fail over time. I believe Stanadyne had a conversion kit for some of their models, but I'm not 100% sure. I worked for the 'dyne in R&D for 18 years, but if a conversion kit was available, it was released before my time, and via the service group, not advanced product.

Great posts Sackett.

I think you should stay out of the conversation if you are that ignorant.

Are you claiming that a gravity feed line is high pressure?

I know you should stay out of the conversation if you are that ignorant.

AIR TRAPPED IN THE HIGH PRESSURE LINES TO THE INJECTORS. Did you happen to miss this? Tell me, do you know what is the opening pressure of an injector? Not too bright, are you?

LOL you are totally clueless. See silly the pressure in a high pressure line would be created by the fuel pump that a gravity system does not have, and since the OP claims that there is no fuel pump, and that the pressure to get the fuel from the tank to the engine is provided entirely by the force of gravity created by having the tank mounted over the engine, the lines are not high pressure lines.

Changing a fuel pump or filter is typically not very difficult, well not for me anyway. That said in tank fuel filters are annoying as the only way to change one of these is by dropping the tank, unless you cut out the floor like I did once, oh the manufacturer could have left a portal but they didn't so that people like you have to drop the tank. So you ever redesign anything that was designed by corporate or government idiots?

PS. In related news Fort Bragg is being renamed to Fort Tutty Fruity, you know to make the gay generals and their word problems happy

God rebuilding my Rochester quadrajet on the 305 was fun, of course fuel injection is more efficient, but when the stomp was made and the 4-barrels opened both the sound and feel were glorious. Miss that, must admit

130

You must be right. How "silly" of me. Good thing I never chose a career in the automotive repair industry.

Soooo, know-it-all, let me 'splain something to you about diesel injection. Gravity feed or not, primary pump or not, when a diesel injection pump's fuel supply is interrupted, it creates a low pressure on the feed side of the pump. if there is no fuel to fill that low pressure. it ingests air into the pump itself, which is then pumped into the high pressure lines to the injectors until the motor stops due to a lack of fuel. On some engines (not familiar with the architecture on this one) the high pressure lines are long enough that air "slugs" are trapped in the lines, which compress so that the pressure buildup in the line is insufficient to force the injector to open. That's why it is important to bleed the lines at the pump first, and then at the injectors. This does not apply to common rail injection, only the piston or plunger style pumps.

Savvy?

Done here.

Lol - I remember when badger posted pics of his shop. I would trust his take long before DO's....

No matter Cooter, the pressure in a high pressure fuel line is created when the pump energizes which creates the high pressure in the system. A gravity fed system has no pump creating high pressure.

Now go fix your dodge ram.

PS It's only a monkey wrench when a monkey is using it, so go adjust your ram frequency with your monkey wrench

Then you can explain how a gravity fed intake line can be described as high pressure when a gravity system has no pump creating the mysterious high pressure?

No you can't actually do that, all you can do is what you are told.

130

Lol, Dustytwat should have used google to figure out how diesels work before posting.

Complete fuqking idiot.

Actually I have changed fuel pumps, and as such have had to deenergize the high pressure line. One method of deenergizing this line is to start the engine and then pull the fuel pump fuse which turns the pump off and stalls the engine because of low fuel pressure in the system, now there is less spillage when the line is disconnected at any point from the fuel rail to the tank.

Thomas Edison never went to school, which means he was never programmed with all the BS that destroys people's lives, you know like you were

[
[/quote]

No matter Cooter, the pressure in a high pressure fuel line is created when the pump energizes which creates the high pressure in the system. A gravity fed system has no pump creating high pressure.

Now go fix your dodge ram.

PS It's only a monkey wrench when a monkey is using it, so go adjust your ram frequency with your monkey wrench






[/quote]

Ok, you win. I hope to aspire to have some talent and experience like you, and while a work in progress, my shop is clearly not yet at the level of the average Goodyear or Firestone, but I'm doing the best I can.

https://www.instagram.com/germancarrepair_atl/

BTW, what credentials and experience do you have?

Sweet - new IG page to follow.

No matter Cooter, the pressure in a high pressure fuel line is created when the pump energizes which creates the high pressure in the system. A gravity fed system has no pump creating high pressure.

Now go fix your dodge ram.

PS It's only a monkey wrench when a monkey is using it, so go adjust your ram frequency with your monkey wrench






[/quote]

Ok, you win. I hope to aspire to have some talent and experience like you, and while a work in progress, my shop is clearly not yet at the level of the average Goodyear or Firestone, but I'm doing the best I can.

https://www.instagram.com/germancarrepair_atl/

BTW, what credentials and experience do you have?
[/quote]



Lol, you have no credibility since you believe that a gravity fed fuel line is a high pressure line. Not that the people in Cootervill can comprehend this. Truth be known I am far more interested in the behavior of quantum entangled particles both enhancing computing ability and in creating a faster and more secure internet and naturally which company has the best chance of taking this new technology mainstream and owning that stock when it happens.

Now go change your fan belt Cooter

It has been almost entertaining reading DO's nonsense ramblings on this thread but at some point it just got boring... I guess he can't understand the difference between a fuel pump and an injection pump and some cars have one or both in their systems....

LOL and you can not comprehend that a gravity fed fuel line is not a high pressure line. Now do try to spin that lieutenant colonel do little

Could you guys just call it a transfer or a lift pump please?

LOL there is no need to lift the fuel when the tank and fuel are already elevated in a gravity fed system.

Ok DorkyOne, you’ve seen my shop. Let’s see what you’ve got. Oh, and what experience and credentials do you have?

I noticed that you studiously avoided that previously. Will you do it again?

Regardless....you people need to agree on your terminology.

I only own dumb stuff that you would never understand, you know like shares of Apple Computer Corporation, But you keep doing those oil changes, furthermore I have never seen your shop, nor am I interested enough to look, nor do I need to brag to a certified and proud brainwashed grease monkey

Uh huh......................

Enjoy Mom's basement...............

My mother died almost 30 years ago, and thanks to Apple and the grace of the good Lord I am retired.

But you keep doing those oil changes for the communist demokraps

My Massey Ferguson had gravity feed down to a fuel pump

Here is a link to the Stanadyne DB4 manual. stanadyne DB4 manual

Another explanation of how the pump works via motortrend: motortrend explain the DB2 pump

I believe the DB4 manual is slightly different than what the OP has (including the number of pumping plunger and possibly a few minor changes), but the beginning of the manual has a great description of how the mechanical pump works, including how that when the plungers are forced in via the cam, shoes and rollers it pushes fuel out the discharge fittings. The amount of pressure inside the injection lines will vary based on items such as: engine/pump speed, amount of fuel being delivered, cam rate, metering valve, line length, line id (typically around .062", except GM which can get upwards of .098"), injector type, injector nozzle hole diameter and injector nozzle opening pressure(not sure what the Allis NOP is).

I have seen peak pressures, with one application I was working on, to be over 1100 bar at the nozzle.....which is impressive for a rotary pump design that is now pushing 70 years old.

Other stanadyne manuals:

Older DM manual: DM manual

DB2: DB2 manual

DE10: DE10 manual

DS pump: DS manual

There is one or two other manuals, CD & JDB pumps, but I cannot find scanned copies online to share and they are really old pumps with most parts now obsolete. And yes, I am too lazy to scan them in as well.......

Ok Dumfuukone, read this basic explanation of how diesel engine fuel injection systems work.

https://dieseliq.com/how-diesel-fuel-injection-systems-work/

Its okay if you don’t understand some of the words or concepts, ask nicely and someone here just might give you a hand understanding.
Well, maybe not since your troll ass has stunk up the place so badly.

BTW, is it ok if I call you Elkmaser?

One issue with your link...it doesn't show the rotary diesel fuel pump which is on the Allis 6060. The link has the newer HEUI and DCR pumps, not the older mechanical pump the OP has.....or what is being argued.

True. But it does illustrate that diesels need high pressure pumps to operate.

You know why your Mom died?

She wanted to, to get away from the embarrassment that is you.

Quick update. Cleaned, changed, or checked all line filters and screens to the injection pump. Also did the same for the fuel return lines and fittings. Slight improvement after working on the return lines. The Stanadyne DB2 injection pump is now coming off for a rebuild, thanks Sackett for all the info and suggestions.

Well flintlocke, 45_100, and sackett were pretty much all correct. It took a while to get this project completed, but we put the new injector pump on today and it fired right up. The old pump had rust inside, a failed ring, and a crack somewhere - all leading to clogs on the return side. FYI a rebuild is $1700 and a rebuilt pump with a core exchange is $1900 these days. Thanks all for the help!

DustyOne,

This particular diesel engine like pretty much all diesel engines have some form of an injection pump. These are high pressure pumps. This is common on all diesel engines for the injectors to feed the cylinders properly. How the diesel gets to that high pressure injection pump varies. In this case the raw fuel is fed by gravity from the tank above the engine. A very simple set up.

There isn't a high pressure line between the tank and the injection pump on this engine. Badger and the others know more about these engines than I ever will, but I do know quite a bit about them. Other diesel engines will require a fuel pump to feed the injector pump in most all cases if the tank is in the same or lower horizontal plane than the engine. Basically any set up that the fuel cannot be delivered to the injector pump at a consistent pressure. A gravity fed tank can provide the consistent pressure needed if there are no obstructions.

All diesel engines have high pressure lines between the injector pump and the injectors. The OP and none of the other responses that I read suggested otherwise on this engine. I think you are confused on this distinction.

LongBob,

I know you have the best of intentions, but to paraphrase: “ You can lead a jackass to water, but you can’t make him think”.

Glad it worked out for you!!! Damn on the price......Sad part is a basic rebuild kit is going for $50-100; but if something was cracked, that opens the can of worms.

Rust inside the pump means you have/had water in the fuel. Bad stuff can and will happen. Change the filters and might also want to see what is in the tank, water-wise.

At least you got 'er going. Man, schit sure has gotten expensive.

Trash in the line from running it dry.

Have not read through all this just the first post and a little of the first patch you give a real good description of a pump that just shot the s***. Running it out if you might have been the final straw hope you find the problem hope I'm wrong

Change the fuel filter (making sure that it is absolutely full of fuel when installing). Then once started put some air pressure to tank with an air hose (sealing with clean rag wrapped around hand). If it doesn't start running smoothly then you either have an obstruction or a leak in the injector pump body. It doesn't take much to stop the flow of fuel with a gravity system.

Phil

He rebuilt the injector pump.