Good read thanks Birdwatcher.
Galloway was speculating in arrears about a mind he never knew.
Thank you for the link.Great read.
First I ever heard about McNamara's memo, he called it dead on; too bad that fu^cking idiot LBJ couldn't comprehend the POS he created & then stepped in with both feet with his policies & decisions.
MM
decent article. birdie thank you
a strategy of attrition is proof that you have no strategy at all. plus
no hot pursuit into Cambodia what poor leadership. Just repeated in Iraq and Afghanistan . politicians and lawyers managing combat
McNamara was the problem from day one
We won every battle, but lost the war. If the politicians hadn't got involved there would have been a different outcome.
We won every battle, but lost the war. If the politicians hadn't got involved there would have been a different outcome.
If the politicians hadn’t gotten involved we wouldn’t have been there in the first place.
We won every battle, but lost the war. If the politicians hadn't got involved there would have been a different outcome.
Please don’t take this the wrong way because I have a somewhat limited knowledge of events in Vietnam, but my impression of that war was that there were not many real battles, and it was a war of mostly brief contacts and most of them where not that decisive in their outcome
Our education is probably not as good as it should be in real history and if anyone has some better information I am really interested to hear it
Thanks Birdy for the OP
Good early morning read! Frustrating but good. We haven't learned a phuquing thing and am certain we have refined the mistakes of the past.
As General Giap stated, we didn’t have a strategy. Stuff I’ve read the last few years seems to point to the fact that the North Vietnamese almost felt sorry for us in thinking that we kind of got duped into the conflict by the French and then the corrupt South Vietnamese. To this day, even though we probably killed two million of them, they have far more hatred for the French and the Chinese than they do us.
Maybe we left rather than lost. Google-foo could be your friend. Try Paris Peace Accords.
While you’re at it ask why the North signed off.
Maybe we left rather than lost. Google-foo could be your friend. Try Paris Peace Accords.
While you’re at it ask why the North signed off.
We didn't win Dan, just like we didn't win in Afghanistan...not sure who did...but it wasn't us.
Did not suggest we won. We did not lose. The S. Vietnamese lost. The North signed off on the Accords because they had no other rational option.
In the long run, we did. Vietnam today calls itself communist and technically it is, but it is also a thriving economy that's almost capitalist. Look at the things you've bought in the last few years: many of them say Made in Vietnam.
I suspect Vietnam is more capitalist than the USA these days. Long term view? Maybe we won after all.
Subjectively, Dan, I want to think we won just to satisfy myself that we didn't risk our lives for nothing. Objectively, though, I think we can make a case that we showed the people what capitalism meant. And Asians have always been very quick to seize any personal wealth they can. They work damn hard to get ahead no matter where they live. That IS capitalism.
I suspect Vietnam is more capitalist than the USA these days. Long term view? Maybe we won after all.
Productive little buggers.
Maybe we left rather than lost. Google-foo could be your friend. Try Paris Peace Accords.
While you’re at it ask why the North signed off.
There you go Dan. Lost the war? No F'ing way. We forced the North to sign off the peace agreement. Should have kept bombing their a$$ for a few more weeks until they surrendered. We were there.
Jim
Wars cost billions. Whenever billions are being spent, someone is making billions. That's what wars are all about.
In the long run, we did. Vietnam today calls itself communist and technically it is, but it is also a thriving economy that's almost capitalist. Look at the things you've bought in the last few years: many of them say Made in Vietnam.
Capitalism is small consolation when you live in a totalitarian regime.
Odd way to fight a war, body count, not gaining, and holding ground.
Wars cost billions. Whenever billions are being spent, someone is making billions. That's what wars are all about.
1st - I never wore a uniform so maybe I should be quiet.
Wars, IMHO, should be fought 'on the cheap', least expense to get the job done, be it Boots on the Ground, Dollars, Equipment.............. but especially Boots on the Ground!
If you're worried about blowing up monuments you're not 'At War'
If you're worried about how it looks you're not 'At War'
If you're worried about loss of life on the other side you're not 'At War'
I'm thinking that if the events of 6 August and 9 August 1945 had actually taken place on 9 December and 12 December 1941 things would look a lot different...............
JMHO.............
The only good that came from that war was that it effectively ended LBJ's political career........................he ranks near the top of the worst POTUS ever.
It was also him that started the big time giveaways to the blacks that are much of the root cause of todays issues.
MM
Good riddance to LBJ AND McNamara! I still believe if JFK hadn't been killed he would have pulled out any further US involvement in VN. He may have been a womanizing democrat, but he WAS in real combat and he DID keep us out of another world War. And maybe I got it all it wrong....except for the part about LBJ & Mac!
Dan, Rocky, all Who Answered the Call.
Win or lose?
If we won, you all were largely why.
If we lost, it wasn't you.
You all went when called, or volunteered.
The vast majority did their duty to the best of their ability.
With honor.
Thank you!
"I'm thinking that if the events of 6 August and 9 August 1945 had actually taken place on 9 December and 12 December 1941 things would look a lot different..............."
While in theory you would be correct, tell me, how in the hell could we of done that in1941? I don't think "The Bomb" had been invented yet or was only in early stages of development ad second, how in the hell would we have delivered it? Dolittle's raid with B-25s was considered a suicide mission at albeit with a chance for survival. Doing the same with A-bombs in 1941 would have been a death sentence for two plane and the pilots and crew, assuming the bombs were already in existence.
President Eisenhower warned us about the military/industrial complex when he gave his farewell to the nation speech. We didn't listen. With the exception of Grenada, we really have not won a war since WW2. We didn't win in Korea. Nor have we won any other war since with the exception of Grenada. The military/industrial complex wants to keep us in some kind of war someplace on the planet and winning no longer matters. All the military wants is more of the newest and latest toys. The industrial part of the complex is glad to comply as it helps raise the bottom line. It's all about " follow the money!" And it's us taxpayers who foot the bill in the long run, in money and lives.
Paul B.
Thanks, Dillonbuck. That's how I've always viewed it: won, lost, or tied, I did my part to my best ability. Voluntarily.
LBJ had a big share of Stock in Bell Helicopter...."seems like" a Conflict of Interest to me....but They never asked me, ha.
"I'm thinking that if the events of 6 August and 9 August 1945 had actually taken place on 9 December and 12 December 1941 things would look a lot different..............."
While in theory you would be correct, tell me, how in the hell could we of done that in1941? I don't think "The Bomb" had been invented yet or was only in early stages of development ad second, how in the hell would we have delivered it? Dolittle's raid with B-25s was considered a suicide mission at albeit with a chance for survival. Doing the same with A-bombs in 1941 would have been a death sentence for two plane and the pilots and crew, assuming the bombs were already in existence.
President Eisenhower warned us about the military/industrial complex when he gave his farewell to the nation speech. We didn't listen. With the exception of Grenada, we really have not won a war since WW2. We didn't win in Korea. Nor have we won any other war since with the exception of Grenada. The military/industrial complex wants to keep us in some kind of war someplace on the planet and winning no longer matters. All the military wants is more of the newest and latest toys. The industrial part of the complex is glad to comply as it helps raise the bottom line. It's all about " follow the money!" And it's us taxpayers who foot the bill in the long run, in money and lives.
Paul B.
To answer your question.... We couldn't. It was a comment about how war is waged in principle or concept.
With the exception of Grenada, we really have not won a war since WW2.
Guess you forgot about Yemen and Iraq.
Read "Dereliction of Duty" by H. R, McMaster.
We had no real objectives in that war. LBJ just wanted to keep the lid on until after the 1964 elections and Congress approved his Great Society BS. The joint chiefs thought we would need 500,000 to 700,000 troops for five years but were afraid to say so very loudly. McNamara tried to help out his boss LBJ by agreeing to only a fraction of the troops they needed, saying he might consider more later. The South Vietnamese government was corrupt and incompetent and had little popular support. At one point, General Ky's air force even bombed his own central government. For a long time we maintained the fiction that we were "advising" the South Vietnamese instead of fighting the war ourselves. McNamara thought it was important to put up a good fight and then, even if the North won, everyone would credit us with backing our friends. He thought of the war as a means of diplomacy--don't bomb any important targets but show them that we can do so and they'll negotiate. They didn't.
All that preceded Ia Drang.
Dick Nixon ended the war. He pulled out, gradually, telling the South to fish or cut bait. When the North wouldn't give us our prisoners back, he bombed the sh-- out of them and we went home. That was the Paris accords. If we had bombed the sh-- out of them in 1964 or 1965......?
The US troops fought competently and bravely but they had no chance to win. Lyndon Baines Johnson and Robert Strange McNamara saw to that.
The lesson of Viet Nam was if you fight a war, go all out to win. Kill all enemy personnel you can and destroy all their works. Unfortunately we've forgotten that lesson many times since then.
The only good that came from that war was that it effectively ended LBJ's political career........................he ranks near the top of the worst POTUS ever.
It was also him that started the big time giveaways to the blacks that are much of the root cause of todays issues.
MM
LBJ: "If we pass this ( voting rights bill? ) the N**gers will vote Democrat for the next 200 years".
Don't forget Congress prevented Nixon from dropping troops into Cambodia and/or Laos BEHIND the enemy buildup just over the border. This pincer movement would have f*cked the enemy big time.
Probably.
With the exception of Grenada, we really have not won a war since WW2.
Guess you forgot about Yemen and Iraq.
We won in Iraq. that is news to me.
But there is no doubt, we whipped Grenada. And don't forget we invaded Panama in 1989 and captured the President.
Grenada and Panama, what a record of victories.
Wars cost billions. Whenever billions are being spent, someone is making billions. That's what wars are all about.
There’s a lotta truth to that.
With the exception of Grenada, we really have not won a war since WW2.
Guess you forgot about Yemen and Iraq.
What did we accomplish? Either place?
For that matter WW1 and WW2 were lost considering that the end result was communism for half the world.
I would almost say we haven't won anything since we pacified the Indian tribes.
A lotta bigwigs here in America made a lotta money.
A lotta bigwigs here in America made a lotta money.
Right, and we haven't even paid the interest on WW1 yet. Much less the debt acquired then and since.
A lotta bigwigs here in America made a lotta money.
Right, and we haven't even paid the interest on WW1 yet. Much less the debt acquired then and since.
People driven by that kind of greed don’t give a schit about the country, or anything or anyone else.
With the exception of Grenada, we really have not won a war since WW2.
Guess you forgot about Yemen and Iraq.
What did we accomplish? Either place?
For that matter WW1 and WW2 were lost considering that the end result was communism for half the world.
I would almost say we haven't won anything since we pacified the Indian tribes.
Well put. We won WW1 and that lead directly to the Nazis.
We destroyed the Nazis in WW2 and that lead directly to Communism engulfing half the world.
Then we had to lose tens of thousands of troops in Korea and 'Nam to stop Communism, and today Russia and China are as big and strong as ever. The USA cant win for losing since the Indian Wars.
Hitler would have conquered Europe if he’d left Russia alone and not fugged with the japs
Another casualty of the Vietnam War was the loss of confidence in our own government. My father was a Pacific Theatre Marine, a combat veteran.
Neither my brother nor I were drafted, but my father’s advice was to go to Canada if we were. This from a guy who was buried per his request in his dress blues.
The Federal Government and the military lied their asses off to the American people about Vietnam. The politicians and the generals were way more concerned about making bloodstained dollars than they were about the country or the 58,000 Americans killed over there. The same can be said for the military-industrial complex and the rotten to the core South Vietnamese government.
Its funny the deep state killed Kennedy right after he outed them on television. Kennedy was also against Vietnam.
Kennedy also created SEAL #1 for container verification inside Cuban ports during the deep state missile crisis.
Seems there is more to this Kennedy fella than meets the eye.
Always remember, good for thousands of years as it is in today’s climate, “a draw against so powerful an enemy was a victory”
We won every battle, but lost the war. If the politicians hadn't got involved there would have been a different outcome.
If the politicians hadn’t gotten involved we wouldn’t have been there in the first place.
Can't argue with that.
I suspect Vietnam is more capitalist than the USA these days. Long term view? Maybe we won after all.
Production isn't the same as freedom. Look at China. Even the hard line Commies in the CCP realized that trade and money buys things that Communism can't. Even so, the people are going through another Mao-like surge of repression after they got a taste of freedom in the 1990s and 2000s. Chairman Xi wants to be the next Chairman Mao, and is purging any free thinking big shots in the party.
Never have I equated capitalism with freedom.
I suspect Vietnam is more capitalist than the USA these days. Long term view? Maybe we won after all.
Production isn't the same as freedom. Look at China. Even the hard line Commies in the CCP realized that trade and money buys things that Communism can't. Even so, the people are going through another Mao-like surge of repression after they got a taste of freedom in the 1990s and 2000s. Chairman Xi wants to be the next Chairman Mao, and is purging any free thinking big shots in the party.
What is this freedom you speak of?
Oh yeah....we are so fugging free.
Taxed to death and need a permit for everything.
Weeeee dogs!
I suspect Vietnam is more capitalist than the USA these days. Long term view? Maybe we won after all.
Production isn't the same as freedom. Look at China. Even the hard line Commies in the CCP realized that trade and money buys things that Communism can't. Even so, the people are going through another Mao-like surge of repression after they got a taste of freedom in the 1990s and 2000s. Chairman Xi wants to be the next Chairman Mao, and is purging any free thinking big shots in the party.
NPR had a good story on Xi the other day.
I blame Nixon for all this China crap.
Xi is taking advantage of everything Nixon started with this "normalized relations" scheidt.
And, the way things look, he WILL be the next Mao.
From the article;
In no year of that long war did the North Vietnamese war death toll even come close to equaling the natural birth rate increase of the population. In other words, every year reaching out far into the future there were more babies born in the north than NVA we were killing in the south, so each year a new crop of draftees arrived as replacements for the dead.
This misses the point. Even a totalitarian regime eould have difficulty convincing its population to send every member of each new generation off to die.
The war was won by 1968. Read Lewis Sorley's A Better War.
North Vietnam could not conquer the South as long as Ametican air support wasn't withhrld - the lessons of the Easter Offensive were ignored by a Democratic Congress in 1975.
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