I got back from WV late last night on spray foaming. 

40 Degrees and warmer. 30' x 48' x 12' buildings (each) including ceilings at $1.50 per SF (that is CONTRACTOR PRICE... $5,200 per building... expect to pay more as a NON-Contractor .

A total badass solution.

Closed Cell Spray Foam 1" thick R-7 insulation value VERY STRUCTURAL

Please ask me questions anyone... If you have them...

Video and pics









After... the work... zipped up to "Mama Bear" (2022 summer cabin build... HOPEFULLY!)

How long did it take? As in how many hours to spray the building.

Top building... 5 hours... rolling scaffolding on a smooth concrete slab.

2nd pic... 6.5 hours VERY ROUGH DIRT floor with rocks... building has 2' riser footing... lots of my crap lumber in the way.

Is that floor square footage or inside surface square footage? I have a 25x28’ steel building in the quanset corrugated style. I would like to have it insulated for condensation issues more than anything.
Like this;
https://www.steelmasterusa.com/quonset-huts/models/a-models/

I wish my whole friggin house was spray foamed

Awesome

I assume it’s FR. Is that a finished surface or will/should it get paint?

That’s really great stuff. Wish I could’ve afforded to do my 40x50 shop with the closed cell foam.

Is your arr tired? R7 and only 1" think. That's good. When that dries how much does it weigh compared to fiberglass insulation?

Spray foam is great but can be expensive.

For those who can't do it all at once, Rockwool is great. Adding it a bit at a time and it's amazing how quiet it is. The soundproofing qualities are superb.

Per SF of foam applied. Basic math on mine.

Walls 48 + 48 + 30 + 30 x 12' tall = 1,720 SF

PLUS

30 x 48 roof (add 5% because of 3/12 pitch) = 1,512 SF

Plus add gable SF

3,465 SF x $1.5 = $5,200 +/-. I am satisfied.

The 29 gauge sheet metal is NOT a good product, but with an inch of closed cell... it is VERY VERY TOUGH... no wind rattle. R7 insulation. Structural integrity is 25% increase (not done the math yet so just a guess).

The cost delta from 29 gauge to 26 gauge is almost the cost of the foam.

Each building turn-key (slab/footing, double certified build construction and foam about $29k... That is around $20 per SF).

In 2022 you can't build a doghouse at $20 SF.

What if you have tyvek binder the tin?

Specs... https://www.carlislesfi.com/products/closed-cell-closed-cell/

Foam in a can from HD is Open Cell. It is cheaper and goes on thicker and faster. It weighs almost nothing.

Closed sell is basically 2 part "Gorilla Glue"... kinda the density of Salt Water Taffy (not quite... maybe half that dense, but I was trying to think of a metaphor).

I brought back samples of each (Open and Closed). If you step on 3" of Open it will go flat 95%+. 3" Closed cell does not collapse at all under my body weight.

This would do the exact same thing as Tyvek but better... plus insulation.

If you question is could you OVER SPRAY the Tyvek... I would think yes, but it would be a very bad idea (i.e. bonding straight to the metal would be WAY BETTER IMHO). Cut out the Tyvek?

I am going to some real world testing with fire and chemicals etc. I have samples.

As for finish... I may run high hat furring strips (R-13 batt under) and drywall in certain areas, OSB or 5' x 5' Russian Plywood in certain other areas. I did buy 200' linear feet of pallet racking last month... 12' tall... so the short answer is a combo on uses of three of these buildings...

$2,500 on the pallet racking, beams and shelves. $12.50 per liner foot for three shelf fork lift rated Home Depot pallet racking. A pretty good deal. It will be attached to the building's framing. Lateral load is well over Cat 5 Hurricance (i.e. 250 mph winds +/-).

I did an inch of spray home in my house when I built it about 4 years ago. It really tied tge framing and sheeting together. I also sprayed the joist ends and inside of the rimboards and the truss ends on my raised heel energy trusses.

I was told I could have gone a full 6" of spray foam in the walls but I was warned it doesn't cure as well when thick and could potentially off gas if thick. I just did 1" and then 5"s of wet set cellulose over the top.

My home is 5200 square feet and doesn't feel drafty and seems easy to heat. I has worried my heating guy put in too small of furnace but it has been fine even when 20 below zero. Our gas bill used to never go over $100/ month even in the winter and we cook with gas and have 2 gas water heaters and a gas fireplace that always has a huge pilot light burning.

I do have a pretty efficient variable speed gas furnace but I think the spare foam really helped our efficiency and ID use it again. My last home was 3900 Sq ft and my gad bills were about double the new one because it had real basic cellulose only insulation.

Bb

Everything I read, spray foam insulation is the way to go for metal buildings.

One little tip. If your building has been subject to a period of use, like cold diesel engine start ups and welding smoke, then you got it foamed a year or two later...the foam will not adhere like it should and will start falling off within a year or two. Washing it and degreasing would have solved that if I had known.

No you don't. I would be concerned about off gases from the product. I would use rock wool in the walls and spray foam in the attic. I would also have an air to air exchanger(s) for the house.

Spray foam is great--it's even better if covered with something--especially the lower 4-8 ft. Foam does deteriorate over time and becomes brittle, and anything that touches it will make it "shed" bits of foam. Keeping it covered prolongs its life.

I had not thought of this foam making the thinner metal stronger but it would stand to reason it does. With that being said I wonder how much less damage a roof would have that has been sprayed with foam insulation compared to one without?

All the steel buildings in prudhoe bay are foam backed steel.

Our little 2x4 wall house in Anchorage had spray foam insulation. Pretty tight house, easily heated with a woodstove insert in the fireplace, but only 1100sf

Having seen it get crumbly is what prompted my question about paint or if there was something in the mix that did not require a final cover.

Good point on decay/deterioration... I really have no idea.

When I got my first Glock in 1986 people told me it would melt or crack. It has not. I carry it daily with others.

If I had to speculate (ONLY A GUESS)... I will suspect 2 part closed cell spray foam on fresh steel will last. I really have no idea... but the intrinsic confidence I have is that this is not the same (potentially) problematic stuff as the original Open Cell stuff... or "Foam in a can" stuff. i.e. the chemistry of the product has improved.

As for off-gassing... there was very little odor last two days. I am hopeful that long term odor or harm will be none or minimal. I may spray white paint to enhance illumination and give a layer of UV protection. Hadn't really thought about it much until reading comments here and thinking on it.

Keep the moisture and the mice away from it and the stuff will last forever.

Termites love tunneling thru it.

Current home had it done during the build. I didn’t know really how good it was as far as keeping the house cool until a couple of neighbors were bragging about how their $30k solar system reduced their power bill…. To pretty much what I was already paying.

Bulk picture link (unsorted) if anyone wants to see the videos pics etc. https://photos.app.goo.gl/fWdU4H7FooPrhpwo9

Any building or home will sweat just like an ice chest. I’ve seen some that t looks like it had been raining. It’s amazing how fast wood studs will rot. Do your homework and gather as much info help as possible. Everyone thinks they are an expert. Insulation contractors want to encapsulate the whole inside because it’ s easiest and get to the the bank ASAP to cash your check. It’s hard to find one to do it right. Any building must breath. You can spend extra and buy a specific ac/heater that brings in fresh air or incorporate fresh air ventilation. I know some on here will disagree. Do your homework. You have to have a vapor barrier incorporated with fresh air.

EXCELLENT POINT... thanks for making it.

I would agree. The bonding to clean steel seems amazing...

I left the concrete slab floor dirty... leaves, dust and debris.

The small amount of over-spray that hit the concrete floor stuck... the over-spray that hit the leaves, dust and debris... never hit the floor and will sweep out with a leaf blower.

Closed Cell foam is what the OP used, not Open Cell.

Closed Cell is a vapor barrier in itself and it’s application conforms to all vapor barrier codes here in MN. An additional vapor barrier such as poly applied over the Closed Cell foam prior to Sheetrock or wood is not only not recommended, it is a violation of building Codes in many areas.

Open Cell , is different, it is not considered a vapor barrier and building codes require that a vapor barrier such as poly, be applied to the inside of exterior walls.

I’ve been doing this a long time and I have yet to see Closed Cell foam react the way you describe. Open Cell is like a Puffed Corn snack and should be covered or it will react as you described.

Open cell can be applied at much colder temps than Closed Cell, it much cheaper, but requires a vapor barrier and must be covered.

I made sure to have fresh air brought into my furnace as well as and additional few 4" air inlets ran from outside to Central parts of the home. I just told my heating guy I wanted fresh air brought in because the house was tight and he did those few things. I'm not sure how it works because I don't notice a draft or anything.

Bb

One simple way is to bring in a pipe or tube 8-12 inch into the mechanical room from outside up high, then place the end inside the house on the floor and in a 5 gal bucket.
The combustion make-up air comes in freely, but the cold outside air stay put, on the floor and in the bucket.

A lot of very good advice from very knowledgeable people.

Had my barn done about 12 years ago 3-5 inches thick amazing stuff.

I’m a state licensed mechanical contractor. The best way to ventilate a foam house is with an ERV or energy recovery ventilation unit. At minimum, outside air brought in through the HVAC system with a damper connected to a specialized controller.

It's some of the best stuff to insulate with.

When building my little shop i had them spray it and put in 4-6 inches on the walls and they sprayed the ceiling.

The outside walls are 1/4 in.bolted tank steel and the south wall is one i built with newer metal.

It has been a good choice because i heat and cool it to keep gun powder,primers and guns from having a bad day.

It measured 25x14 ft and had ceiling that is 14 ft tall.

It is quiet as well.About 1300.00 10 or so years ago.

It took them about 2 hours to get it done.

Tag

Imagine doing that for a living I couldn’t think of anything much worse

Thanks for commenting Edwin... you are absolutely right... a certain about of "air changes" per day are required for healthy air. I forget the math, but glad you brought it up, least folks forget.

It worked really well for us on a 20 x 20 building and I didn't have to deal with fiberglass insulation.

Money well spent!

The guys spraying were legal Hispanics... the senior of the two has been in the US for 25 (?) years (maybe 48 years old). He has 4 kids, his family is very close... kids going to college... starting businesses etc.

He was a farmer back in Mexico... has a small tract of land here and a few cows... he is looking forward to growing that.

He does chitty work daily... but takes care of his family and dreams.

He earned my respect. I tipped him well.

The younger guy is similar.

These guys have a very good bead on life and will be taking away fortune/opportunity/wealth from the "woke" and the "stupid"...

So be it.

3 minute video of the job

Roofing in 100* heat

Steve... what is your rate per SF on closed cell? Assuming a 3,000 SF job?

Thanks

My uncle had our 6' round enclosed deer blinds sprayed with that. Fire up a Mr. Heater Buddy in one and it will run you out in minutes. Good stuff!

There was no real set SF price, it varied by location, wall height, attic height, vaulted with Proper Vent ceilings, vaulted hot roof, flat ceilings with thin layer then blown glass, flat ceilings complete, thickness, ease of access, etc.

That framing/roofing combo has to be the lightest on the market. I'd be curious what the structural numbers are before and after.

I ran the calculation... she is plenty strong.

Actually... the lateral wind load is the design failure criteria... (i.e. the foundation can lift at 134 mph, but I hope to bring that number up with the pallet racking).

From a load calculation perspective... foam does not have a number that can be calculated... but 29 gauge side is pathetic... should be better now.

Thanks for posting. I'm guilty of doing what I'm used to doing. I like seeing other options.

We have a 36 x 63 feet garage - built by Morton Buildings. I've been told (by the Morton buildings rep) that the spray foam insulation would eat away the metal. Been told by spray foam person that it wouldn't. They each have conflicts of interest. Find conflicting info online. Anyone know?

Has anybody tried it on a travel trailer? My Weekend Warrior came out of CA and there is no insulation in the floor. I was thinking about having most or all of the underside spray foamed.

If the underside is covered or enclosed after it is foamed. Any solvent, oil or water will slowly destroy it that is kicked up from the road surface otherwise. .

Paint or roll-on rubber roof type stuff maybe?

If you prepped the metal PERFECT... and I mean PERFECT... maybe.

As for wear from water and road debris... I can see this a possible... and if separation ever occurred trapping moisture.

I guess if I was insistent on trying it... I would prep the metal... spray an inch or two of foam... add a layer of expanded metal to the frame with tabs and bolts and then do another layer of foam thru the metal to the existing foam.

Might work... I don't really like my suggestion... but maybe???????

I can't imagine how the foam would "eat" the metal.

If anyone told me such a thing I would sit down to a lunch with them... have a couple of beers and gauge the bullchit on various other topics (i.e. bring up politics... then flip sides as a test).

Might be true, but sure sounds like pure crapola to me.

FYI...

Just swapped text messages with my foam salesman...

Dramatic increase in prices is coming for the foam chemicals.

I.e. If you are pondering closed cell spray foam... you better hustle... LIKE IMMEDIATELY!

Mice love spray foam. They'll turn it into a condo complex. I've opened walls that looked like ant farms.

To be clear, I've seen this with Icynene open cell foam insulation, not the closed cell polyurethane foam that you used on your steel buildings.

You seem to piss directly into a strong wind fairly often...

Is this deliberate... and moist clothes are part of you ambiance?

Or does the complexity of the resultant evade you?

Just curious.

They do the same with FF blanket, craft faced, cellulose, , you just don’t notice it as much because they have room to run without making tunnels.Carpenter ants love the schit out of open cell, that’s fun to deal with.