https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/17276753/1

Been reading the above thread with great interest. Especially the crap idiotic "chain store" employees that have NO idea what they are talking about when it comes to Form 4473.

Now....

How many of you have used a law enforcement friend or family member to run the S/N on a firearm or do a background check on someone you bought/sold a firearm to?

Do you realize that act is illegal and can cause your LEO friend their job/career?

I know guys that do it now, and I've told them the consequences, and they continue!

I won't rat on them or turn them in, but I'll damn sure let them know what they are doing is illegal and what I think of it!

I've never bought nor sold a firearm privately.

Same here, and I never will.....

Me^^^^

Rare for me, but I've done it a few times. Off the top of my head, I can remember eight times buying guns in private, face to face, sales. Four times with neighbors (maybe five).
twice with my brother. Twice with someone I met at the range.

Person to person transfer of long guns, ie rifles and shotguns (private sales) are legal in Pennsylvania. Handguns must be done through a dealership, which means the state has a back door registration in place.
I have no doubt that every dealer transaction involving the 4473 goes into a database. Probably since HW Bush was President. I also imagine that purchases of ammo and components through credit cards is tracked as well. I make it a habit to buy things like that with cash whenever possible.
Private sales is the “Gun Show Loophole” that the news and politicians are always yammering about. The truth is that banning private sales allows the government to run a backdoor registration of every single firearm. Who’s got what and how many. Something every good police state needs to have!
Most folks around this area are familiar with Lieghty’s Flea Market near Altoona. Up until last year there were always longguns and quite a bit of ammunition available there.
This year they banned private sales of guns and ammo. Judging from the last couple trips I made there, it’s now half of what it was before!
I haven’t studied the thread in question. Am I missing something?
7mm

I look them up on arrests.org before I do any business. It's public info, and in no way illegal that I know of

Oh, I was supposed to say I never did it?

I wasn't being coy or facetious in my initial reply.

So you weren't doing another version of the tragic boating accident story?

Nope. Just always thought that like a parachute - buying something used that explodes at 10's of thousands of PSI right next to my lips or in my hands - I want new predominantly and if I must go used - from someone (a store) who has heavy liability reasons to ensure things are pretty decent before selling them to the public.

Learned me something, didn’t know that. Thanks

I would be interested to hear more about how you think this is happening. If the 4473 is filled out hard copy, when doing the NICS check they ask if you are purchasing a handgun, long gun or both. The form is stored at the FFL premises. How is "Big Brother" getting make, model and serial number into the secret "Database"?

I bought a machine gun loaded with tranquilizers...

A Snuzi.

I’ve been legally buying and selling firearms privately (and legally) for almost three decades. Just one of the perks of living in a relatively free state.

I can’t prove one way or the other. However in TN the TBI or FBI performs the background checks (TICS) via online means and it’s not that far fetched the FBI or another federal agency could be mining the data any way they see fit. Looking for terrorists and such...

Yeah I have done just that my entire life.

Then you've never sold a gun?

I guess I can understand your logic. That is not a requirement here and I was unaware that some states had their own system. Thanks.

Same.

Generally better deals both buying and selling privately.

Federal law requires any shuttered FFL to turn in all 4473's.

Sure would be a shame if a shed where the FFL kept those records were to burn down right before turning them in.

Ever listen to the dealer when he calls the NICS when checking if you are legal to buy a firearm? Every essential piece of information on the 4473 goes to the person at the other end of the line- phone or computer contact- and ends up in the NICS computer.

The only firearm information given is firearm type. No Make, model or SN.

And your name ,address,physical description,what type of gun,age.That`s all!

That depends on what state we are discussing.

You don't have to do a NICS check here if you have concealed carry permit.

No I haven’t. But doubt I’ve had a dealer run a NICS check on me since 96 or 97. They definitely haven’t since 2006.
Private sales here are legal. Long guns just checking DL is all that’s needed. Handgun a purchase permit or CHP plus DL required. Seller is required to keep a record (CYA)but is not required to report it. Plus there isn’t any way for a private seller to access NSP or NICS.

Met a retired gun store owner.
I asked him about what happened to 4473's.
He said he called BATFE for instructions. BATFE said boxed 4473's go into huge warehouse where they are kept. He never heard back from BATFE where to send them

They can destroy 4473's after 20 years.

martininstrument: What makes you think a law enforcement officer checking a serial number of a "suspicious" firearm is doing something "ILLEGAL"?
I've done it hundreds of times - granted its been 24+ years since I last did so.
Where "dereliction" of duty COULD possibly come in to play is if the "suspicious" firearm came up reported stolen and said law enforcement type did NOT follow up on that stolen firearm.
But it sounds to me that you are off on a different tangent than that scenario?
Do you also think it is illegal for a law enforcement type person to run a suspicious vehicles license plate or V.I.N. (vehicle identification number) for stolen?
If there has been some "law" passed and instituted in the last 24 years that makes checking on a firearms legal status "illegal" then I have not heard of it - and if your scenario should be true then I am thankful the statute of limitations has LONG since passed.
By the way I have also been buying firearms for more than 57 years now both via private sales and business sales and NONE of those hundreds of transactions have caused me any legal grief.
Perhaps thou worries to much?
Long live the Second Amendment.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

160: Where do you think all those 4473's go after the FFL holder dies or closes up shop? Hint: It is in West Virginia

My friend who closed her gun store after 30-something years in business sent her 4473's to ATF. Too bad a few old car batteries happened to get spilled in her storeroom. Sulfuric acid and paper doesn't play well together!

78CJ: What is Section A box 3 labeled? Hint: Serial Number. How do you think firearms are traced?

Bottom line to me is this.
The people who run our federal government have been waging an undeclared war on the American People for some time.
Do you honestly think that they’re NOT interested in what you may have should push come to shove?
I swear, sometimes I think some folks actually refuse to see, and verbally attack those of us who do.
7mm

Oregon is another with (not so) instant back ground checks performed by State Police.

Make, modej, and serial number are given to OSP via phone with every purchase.

My last two Oregon transactions have been delayed. One for three days, an earlier transaction (Ruger 10-22) for 182 days.

I've had many private firearm transactions and that's exactly what they are - PRIVATE!

That's the way it should be. Here in NY if you get arrested even for the smallest thing the next day or 2 someone will be showing up to take your permit and all hand guns. So if you still have it you're not in any trouble.

"... martininstrument(sic): What makes you think a law enforcement officer checking a serial number of a "suspicious" firearm is doing something "ILLEGAL"? ..."

Depends on what makes the firearm "suspicious".

Let me "clarify" a bit here.
This subject arose when a man said that he would not sell a gun or buy a gun until he got the buyer/seller DL information. He immediately took that information to a county deputy friend who would then run both gun and buyer/seller.

Texas has a "LETS" (TLETS) system. Oklahoma also has one, OLETS.
They are statewide computer data bases containing all DL, VIN and tag numbers as well as criminal records.
I'm pretty sure Montana has one also.

A LEO can access information from a LETS system in carrying out his duties.
A LEO CAN NOT access LETS information for personal reasons or personal use.*
That includes checking the gun your buddy just bought to see if it's "clean"!
....or checking a gun buyers DL number.

P.S. - an OLETS system WILL NOT contain a gun's S/N unless it's been reported as stolen. It will have to be entered into the OLETS system for a specific reason.

*-I'm pretty sure it happens all the time anyway. Even LEO's are subject to human frailties!

Unless you are felon/gang banger then you are released the next day.

Guess my "libertarian" shows on this subject.
Personally, I think we (Americans) should go back and annul ever gun law passed since 1932. 😉

What I’ve done or not done is not going to be discussed online but I do admit to running names before selling privately, statute of limitations has expired anyway. 😁. I will not now nor would I EVER sell a firearm to a disqualified individual and whatever lengths I went to for that determination was done so that I wouldn’t be responsible for the misuse of firearm. I’ve canceled sales and refused sales to people that made a statement that didn’t sit well with me. I’m under NO OBLIGATION to sell a firearm to ANYONE, even someone that isn’t disqualified. If you didn’t act appropriately or tried to make an (off color) joke or smelled like a beer or just had a surly attitude you were NOT buying a firearm from me. I never had a firearm for sale that I HAD to sell and I never took an off colored joke as simply a joke. If a guy wanted to be funny during the purchase and paperwork time by cracking the tired old “is this gun big enough to kill my ex wife?”….I’d rip up the paperwork right there and put the gun back in the case. I don’t joke about serious matters and I’m not going to be the one person that could have made a difference but didn’t.

No chit, but it doesn't make it to the National Tracing Center until the FFL discontinues business. I'm not saying the data isn't recorded somewhere after that, just clearing up speculation on Federal Law.

Correct, I wasn't going to muddy the waters

If you don't have a FFL, you can put your paperwork where the sun don't shine and eat the gun. S'up to you. 😉

I've refused to sell to customers I wasn't comfortable with too. So what?
I also refused to sell to a gent that let me know he would "register" the gun.

If interested in a firearms 'legal' status, use hotgunz.com, and plug in the serial number.

How about if you're interested, just buy it on "good faith" and go on.

NICS is NICS... if states are not using NICS they are not part of the claim.

But you still fill out the 4473...

Bada Bing. At least between 2 in-state residents, in-state. Show me your license, here’s mine. Fugg big brother and all the rest of it. That won’t last, but that’s how it’s been where I live. Live Free Or Die, bitchezzzz

The Lort gave me free will. And judgment. And all that. So I use it. Freely. No strings.

Well, as an FFL for a bunch of decades...
They contact manufacturer to get buyer (usually a jobber) or dealer and then they get the dealer to look up the buyer. Then they try to track down the original buyer... After that it gets tough. But if they really need the info they contact all FFLs in a given area they suspect as the source and ask us to go through our books for the particular firearm and serial number.

Not sure, but serial misuse like that might not have a Statute of Limitations. If you were doing that to me I would hope there were none.

Yeah checking the serial number of a firearm is terribly invasive…..for criminals. Not wanting to sell or deal in stolen goods overrides my concern for sensitive feelers. 😂

I hope I’ll be able to sleep ok. 😂

My friends on the force as well as my chief were on my side whereas the criminals..not so much. 😉

I guess I don't believe that the ATF has people on staff that sift through original hard copy documents and scans them or manually re-enters them. I believe they go in a storage facility where they are never looked at again.

No kidding, but the fact remains, that the info given when purchasing is not always the same as it's state defendant.

He stated "The only firearm information given is firearm type. No Make, model or SN", which is state dependant, not NICS dependant.

Pretty much!
Never seen a gummint employee be very industrious, except when avoiding work!

Its quite common for them to attempt to bully FFLs as well. For instance, an FFL I know upgraded to an SOT. They told him he had to turn over his records because he was getting a "new" FFL.

One particular gunsmith I know, the Feds showed up for a random "audit" and took digital images of logs. Then they demanded to inspect all his 4473s which they ran through a scanner. He was an FFL holder for 40+ years. After that day, he no longer would accept transfers, order rifles, or anything else requiring a 4473. He would only work on guns brought to him in person with customer waiting for him to perform any work. If it couldn't be completed in one day be it for parts or time constraints, he would send the customer home with their firearm and told to come back for work to be finished. I think he had a big fire at some point, too.

When that dealer goes out of business - the records must be sent in to the ATF... Guess what happens to 'em then?

Not always.. In WI., a check must be done for every handgun transfer no matter if the buyer has a CCW permit or not..

I’ve only done private transactions with people I know.

I don’t lose sleep over .gov knowing what or how many guns I’ve got. Anyone who’s had to deal with government paperwork and efficiency in any capacity for anything knows how insanely paranoid it is to be concerned about “the government” somehow coming after everyone’s guns by means of whatever evidence of sales it has and internet posts it’s harvested. By the time all those gov employees got it sorted out we’d all be dead.

That’s because Wisconsin has no permanent NICS exemption, Utah does along with a bunch of other states.
Check ATF Brady exemption chart.

Washinton?
State or DC?

You're the kinda "cop" that makes "cop" a dirty word. The law applies to others. Not you.
You even admit that you will misuse and abuse your LETS computer access for personal reasons.

I really couldn't care less how you handle criminals, but when you use a government computer system to invade the privacy of honest citizens, you're dead wrong.

"YOU" don't want to "sell or deal" in stolen goods?
Super! ...but don't "assume" that everybody is dealing stolen goods.
I've refused sales more than once because the buyer gave me a "bad vibe".
I'll buy from anyone who will accept my offer....and I WON'T be running down to the local PD or SO to have them "run" the S/N. That would be illegal.

Before you start telling me I'm full of 🐴💩, I have two children, both are LEO's. One Fed, one municipal. Neither will run a S/N or a tag number....not even for dad!

Unless you are accessing information from a "LETS" computer in pursuit of your duties as a LEO, you're breaking the law and invading privacy.

I would encourage you to check state and federal statutes that concern accessing "LETS" information for personal reasons.

Do you also not believe that agents show up at retailers with portable scanners to photocopy every 4473 on the premises.

Worked in a gun shop once. About 2.5 years. NEVER had a visit from the BATF (no "E" at that time!). By the time I left, there were thousands of Form 4473's on file. It would have taken a cadre of agents and clerks to copy ALL the forms on file!

Especially prior to the latest form 4473... now the only page they really need is the front.

I agree completely.

Since a registry would be unconstitutional surely you don't think they would scan all those records!

Sarcasm font on...

Show what "license?"

😂😂🤣

🤣🤣🤣

Originally, Form 4473 was a single, fill out the front and sign form.
Bought a gun at a chain pawn shop where I had bought several guns in the past at different stores. The 4473's were on their computer. Handed "Joe Clerk" my DL. He entered my name and handed back my DL. WT...?
"You're already in our system sir." and proceeded to call NICS!
Hate to not complain, but that was the quickest I have EVER cleared a NICS check!

That is one of the reasons I refuse to use anything other than paper.

What paperwork during a private sale????

Where did he mention ANYTHING about a private sale?

He stated in a previous thread that he owned a gun shop for a number of years.

Missed that. I thought this was a thread on private sales.

Seems like a thread to advoid......

Yep.......and the "newer forms" would need 2 pages scanned to get all the info.