Just that?

I never understood that.

Nor I good friend.

Paul brought the Gospel to us gentiles.

Who hates him?

A few do, Viking.

He wrote what....2/3 of what we Christians consider the New Testament.

I do know a few Jews who really hate him!

Not only that, but St. Paul continued to guide and correct the churches he established up to the time he was martyred which is why he wrote that 2/3 of the NT.

Paul was a badass.

I really like the guy.

A lot of good folks nambed after him.

If you ever had to go through the trouble of getting an apostille, you'd hate the bastard that required it, whether his name was Paul. or not.

Paul told it like it is and many hate him for telling them the truth. Jesus named the first 12 apostles to the Jews. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles.
Jesus hand picked Paul to go to the Gentiles. Paul disappeared for 3 years after his conversion and it's generally believed that he was in the desert being taught by Jesus himself. He came back with a fire that never quit. Some will say that Paul contradicts Jesus but that's not true. Paul preached to a different audience.

John was the best

Apostle Paul would whip most UFC fighters if he could come alive now. After all, how many of us have fought with wild beasts? Kind of like King David.

Apostle Paul would whip most UFC fighters if he could come alive now. After all, how many of us have fought with wild beasts? Kind of like King David.

What do you know. God wanted it posted twice.

Deja vu

Kent

St Paul was genuine. In Galatians 2: 11-13 he calls out St Peter for choosing not to eat with the Gentiles when other Jews were around.

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.

12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

For it is by grace you been saved through faith - and this is not from yourselves it is a gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.

Many, many, many of my favorite verses are written by Paul thru the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. A great apostle, who was truly dedicated to spreading the gospel. Probably the greatest missionary ever.

I love Apostle Paul.

He wasn't always named Paul.

Before Paul, he was Saul.

Jesus Himself said of Paul, “he is a chosen vessel of mine.”

Apostle Paul used the phrase “the Law of Christ” in two of his letters. It was his shorthand for Jesus’ New Covenant command. When Jesus gathered with His disciples (ALL Jews) for the final Passover, He said He was giving them a new command. And this new command was gonna replace all of the other 600+ commands in the Old Covenant. He gave them this new command because He was establishing a New Covenant.

This new command was simple...“You are to love one another as I have loved you.” And He said that by this unique kind of New Covenant love, everyone would know that they were His disciples. Apostle Paul takes ‘that’ (Jesus’ own words) and promotes it through all of his letters as the uniting ethic for ALL of Jesus’ followers.

The Law of Moses was only supposed to last until Jesus came...and through His sacrifice...Jews and Gentiles were made into one body of Jesus’ followers. The barrier of the Law which had divided them had been broken down.

Apostle Paul said that Jesus’ followers are now under the Law of Christ and were no longer under the Law of Moses. The New Covenant Law of Christ is the marching orders for Jesus’ followers. It should inform our thoughts and our actions and pretty much everything else that we do.

Im always impressed by the biblical knowledge that some on the fire have. I’m far from a biblical scholar have a basic understanding. I’ve always believed that

1) you need to believe in God and the plan of salvation.

2) you need to strive to live a Christ like life knowing that you will fall short but still make a sincere effort to live it.

Way to many of these threads turn into trash talk that I don’t want to go into but for those that believe that faith is enough how does that mesh with a horrible person that believes but lives a lifestyle counter to everything taught and doesn’t care but believes in God? Works as in the Pharisees that we’re into showboating are unimportant but it seems to me that believing and also striving to live a Christian lifestyle do matter.

There are some good and smart men here. Dude’s like TF49 and Rock Chuck and Muffin and RJY66 are pretty flippin’ stout when it comes to Biblical knowledge.

I think the kind of ‘believing’ that really matters in this instance is more than just an acknowledgment that something is true. It involves confidence in the Gospel, and a resulting action.

I see it as a totally different way of approaching life. Within the context of a brand new covenant that says "Your sin is paid for, now go live a life that reflects the love and forgiveness of God as you mirror that in your love and forgiveness of the people around you."

Same.

Grace IMO covers you so to speak when you’ve made a mistake but live the lifestyle. Someone that believes and strives to live the lifestyle is covered if they make a momentary mistakes and then stroke out a moment later. It isn’t a free pass to simply believe while living an evil lifestyle counter to all teachings as I understand it.

Why the hate for the Apostile Paul?

Good morning to you, Mister Wabigoon. I greet you from my hospital bed. I am on the mend. I suspect they will throw me out today.

You ask a good question. I have at least one man’s answer. For me, it was not as much hate as just animosity. It started maybe 30-40 years ago, and it’s pretty much resolved itself. It was a phase in my growth as a Christian.

For me, there was a point where I grew tired of looking for answers and always finding this guy, Paul, being quoted. It came to seem that there was Jesus, and what he said and did, and then this Paul guy stepped in and stole the show, and usurped the message. This was also about the time that there was a new movement afoot highlighting the actual words of Jesus. This appealed to me.

This is somewhat where Thomas Jefferson was coming from when he compiled the Jefferson Bible. What did Jesus really say? Versus what did people say he meant? At the time, it held a lot of meaning for me. Paul, on the other hand, seemed like an extraneous voice. He grew to represent just a lot of noise. I spent the better part of a decade concentrated on just the four Gospels. Probably when I joined the Campfire, I was still in this phase.

That was an important step in my growth as a Christian. Eventually, I got to understand the Gospels better, and after a fashion, Paul’s message started to come through. I stopped seeing him as a usurper, but more as a lens, clarifying the implications of what Jesus had said. Over time, the animosity went away, and I’m much more open to his message.

Even I know it's Apostle Paul, not Apostile. Usually not a grammar Nazi but...

Paul is cool!

Okay so I have a question. How "good" do you have to be or how successful do you have to be in "living the lifestyle"? Professing Christians run the gamut from Mother Theresa to Joe Blow who drinks, cusses, has anger issues and a secret porn addiction, but shows up to church every Sunday in his coat and tie, is on his "best behavior" and pays his "tithe". All the other brothers and the preacher at church think Joe is a swell guy because they only see him at "his best" and assume he is "living the lifestyle".

So, where is the dividing line between the worst person who barely squeaks into heaven and the best sinner who just misses the cut and winds up in hell assuming both genuinely believe? I've never been able to answer that. Best I can come up with is that a "genuine" convert is gonna eventually produce some "fruit" in his life but that puts me back to the beginning intellectually asking "how much is enough" ? Is one orange enough or does he need a whole sack full?

All of the Apostles including Paul greatly exhorted their followers to do good works. Everyone who talks about Paul remembers verses like Romans 6
:23 or Ephesians 2:8 but the same man who wrote those verses also kicked a guy out of the Corinthian church for having an affair with his step mother and said to do the same thing with others who claimed to be "brothers" but did certain things. So, works were expected to maintain membership in Paul's churches. But I still haven't found the answer of "how much is enough and how little is not enough" regarding salvation. About the guy screwing his step mother, Paul said and I paraphrase, "turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved". That is a little over my head but obviously Paul didn't think the man was going to hell, he just didn't want him around until he cleaned up his act.

So when I consider how holy God is and how truly sinful all of us really are, I come to the conclusion that he is going to either accept all of us jerks who believe in him (not a universalist by any means) or will accept none. The quality of our belief and the degree to which we trust him and not our own works could very well be the acid test. Its so difficult for people to not try to add some pitiful works to the finished work of Christ to attempt to "insure" their salvation. In the end, that may be the failure to walk the "narrow path" and enter into the "narrow gate" that Christ warned about. But there are a lot of genuine believers who follow the various "lordship doctrines" of faith plus works. I can't imagine that the grace of God is not big enough to cover their error if indeed they are in error.

I don't think we can find out all the answers this side of the grass.

Where is our good friend Hastings?

If he doesn't rise to take your bait, I'm gonna be worried about him!

I don’t think anyone can answer the highlighted part, not to mention all the other points you bring up. It seems everyone rests their laurels on the aspect of “Salvation through mercy” and don’t feel they need to act responsibly, claiming you are saved by mercy and acts are of no value…

How many Johns were there? You have the disciple John, John The Baptist, and John on the aisle of Patmos. All the same guy?

Paul started out as Saul. He was the biggest anti-Christian of his age. Then he saw the light and became one of God’s greatest spreaders of the word. He was imprisoned and tortured, but never lost his faith. A man to be admired and listened to.

Ron

Paul expanded on Jesus' words that we're saved by faith and faith alone. Jesus gave salvation to the thief on the cross, a guy who had NO fruit. Works don't get you into heaven. They determine what your position in heaven will be. We're given very little info on how that will work. Just keep this in mind:
You're better off cleaning toilets in heaven than being in the highest position in hell.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." - John 14:12. See also Numbers 11:24-30 and Mark 10:38-40. The verse that briefly caused me trouble was Colossians 1:24.

"What a Friend we Have in Jesus."

I certainly rest in my belief that my salvation is through mercy. I do some "good" things, people tell me what a "good fella" I am, but I know the truth which is that compared to Jesus Christ I am pond scum and any genuine good work that I do is him working through me in spite of me. If I am brutally honest with myself, my "good works" are tinged with pride, self affirmation, or seeking the favor of men. Then five minutes later, I'll screw up some way....probably see Biden on TV and get pissed off when I should be trusting God to take care of things. So, If I get a "reward" or "position" in heaven above "cleaning toilets" it too will be because of grace.

The Best! to You good man! Heal FAST!!!

I saw your Yacht anchored in Boston Harbor.

I dont get being critical or having animosity towards Paul.
If he was good enough for Jesus to use.....

Not quite. A misunderstood philosophy that the thief was saved when Jesus said “I will see you in paradise.”

Read 1Peter, this tell you that people are given the chance to redeem themselves after death, but it is not guaranteed…

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The best known passage about salvation through faith is this one, Ephesians 2: 8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Most people seem to ignore that last phrase, 'so that no one may boast'. God doesn't want people making their claims to fame. Just do the job and get on with it. God knows what you've done. Men don't need to know. We're told a lot about Paul's actions by the other writers of the NT books but I suspect that he did a whole lot of things we aren't told about as he was trying to avoid this boasting that he warned us about. Jesus warned us about it, too. He pointed out the Jews loudly praying in public so people would see how pious they were. Jesus said that they'd received their reward already. There would be nothing more for them later.

You know good folks, some of these Christian threads are more informative than going to Church.

Works may not save you, but they will condemn you. The thief wasn’t saved, he was warned…

There is a very simple answer to your questions. They are really only one question. Take a look at what God tells us in Hebrews 3:18-19.

"And to whom did He swear they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? We see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief."

All this sinning the Sunday guy is doing during the week demonstrates he does not belief.

As far as the guy who had his dad's wife. We see that Jesus was destroyed when He died. Apostle Paul turned this guy over to Satan "for the destruction" so that he died. There is no repentance from death. We constantly hear about the grace of God. I maintain the infiniteness of God. He is harsh and loving. If you are interested in a private message, I wrote an essay which explains how the Lord was gracious in His harshness by giving him over to Satan.

Romans 10:9-10 comes to mind when I think about the thief o the cross. He did "work out his salvation". He preached to the other thief. That's all he could do from his disadvantaged position.

"God works in strange, and mysterious ways."

Paul proves apostolic succession and speaks out against unchastity. Plenty right there to make him unpopular.

A lot has been mentioned on this thread about grace. To me, accepting God’s grace is clearly supremely important. But extending grace to others is exceedingly important too. We are most like Jesus when we are extending grace to others. To me, grace really is, relationally speaking, the solution for just about everything.

Grace is the hallmark of the Jesus experience.

I love Paul. I'll meet him soon enough. He penned most of the NT by God's inspiration, instruction. Some are uncomfortable with women keeping silent in the church, and other things in books he wrote. Some try to interpret that specific scripture to mean something else, but it doesn't. He also wrote a woman cannot teach a man in the church. A bishop, or a preacher must be a man. The 1st chapter of Roman's condemns homosexuality. Queers don't like that. Either you take the bible as a whole, or forget it all together.

Wabi,
Are the answers different........this time?

Those who argue for women's rights fail to see that Paul was actually very liberal for the times. He allowed women in church. The Jews didn't. They weren't allowed beyond the court of women in the temple. In the synagogues the women were separated into restricted areas. Also, the women weren't educated. The men were allowed to learn to read and study the scriptures. The women weren't. If they had questions, they had to ask their husbands because they couldn't read it themselves. The Gentile churches gave a lot of freedom to women.

same as last time...

Deja vu...

Kent

The other apostles and the church considered him an apostle and equal to the other apostles. They considered his writing and teaching to be equal to theirs in authority and consistent in context.

Anyone who developed or parrots a view outside that view speaks out of ignorance or is willfully misrepresentating the issue.

I guess we can disagree here. I think Jesus went to them and told them, "I told you so!"

Where do you see "apostolic succession"?

The original version of Christianity that Jesus established was something brand new on this earth. It wasn’t closed to women. And it was so concerned with issues of social welfare…like caring for the sick and caring for the poor…that it embedded them into its doctrines. And it was only exclusivist in the sense that it foreclosed devotion to all other deities. Judaism was exclusivist in that capacity as well, but also in so many other ways that have already been mentioned. And Judaism crucially lacked a missionary impulse as well.

2 Tim. 2:2 "What you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well."

1 Timothy 4:14 too.

That's just Paul.

The 12 apostles didn’t consider Paul’s gospel equal at first. That is why the Council of Jerusalem met in 51 A.D. to resolve the differences. Peter initially viewed Jesus’ death as a national sin and crime for which the nation had to repent, not as “good news” for Jesus atoning for sins. Jews saw it as “bad news”, but Peter did eventually come to Paul’s defense at the Council.

There were two separate gospels: the gospel of the kingdom in Jesus’ earthly ministry and then later the gospel of grace in Paul’s ministry, thus the confusion, to this day.

The kingdom gospel to Jews only was taught by John the Baptist, Jesus, and the 12 and required that Jews accept the identity of Jesus and that He was the Messiah, the Son of God. Faith plus works were required in this ministry, along with water baptism, keeping the law, and repentance. This ministry ended after Jewish disbelief and the rejection and death of Jesus.

The ascended Jesus commissioned Paul to witness to mainly the Gentiles based on Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection (the finished works of Jesus) by faith alone, NO works of us required. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 This is still the present gospel in which Jews and Gentiles are equal and will continue until the church, the body of Christ, is complete.

Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection conquered death and has given eternal life to all who believe the gospel of grace. Thank goodness for God’s amazing grace.

God’s mercy and grace brought salvation to the Gentiles after Israel failed. After the Lord removes the church, the body of Christ, ALL of God’s promises and prophecies to Israel will be fulfilled. Romans 11:25-26 Israel has not been replaced by the church

So what was the count of Paul haters?

Kent

I recommend, "Man in White," by Johnny Cash. A good read.

There's even a town next to Minneapolis named after him. Can't be anyone there with this attitude

Pauls faith. Enough said.

Man. You jacked up on caffeine? I didn’t specify when they considered him to be an apostle. Your explanation changes nothing that I said.

You also need to understand that the Gospel in the Old Testament was no different than the Gospel on the New Testament. It was ALWAYS about faith and NEVER about works.


Dispensational Theology is heresy.

Thanks all.

IZH27,

Good post.