Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Why the hate for the Apostile Paul?

Paul expanded on Jesus' words that we're saved by faith and faith alone. Jesus gave salvation to the thief on the cross, a guy who had NO fruit. Works don't get you into heaven. They determine what your position in heaven will be. We're given very little info on how that will work. Just keep this in mind:
You're better off cleaning toilets in heaven than being in the highest position in hell.

The best known passage about salvation through faith is this one, Ephesians 2: 8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Most people seem to ignore that last phrase, 'so that no one may boast'. God doesn't want people making their claims to fame. Just do the job and get on with it. God knows what you've done. Men don't need to know. We're told a lot about Paul's actions by the other writers of the NT books but I suspect that he did a whole lot of things we aren't told about as he was trying to avoid this boasting that he warned us about. Jesus warned us about it, too. He pointed out the Jews loudly praying in public so people would see how pious they were. Jesus said that they'd received their reward already. There would be nothing more for them later.

Okay so I have a question. How "good" do you have to be or how successful do you have to be in "living the lifestyle"? Professing Christians run the gamut from Mother Theresa to Joe Blow who drinks, cusses, has anger issues and a secret porn addiction, but shows up to church every Sunday in his coat and tie, is on his "best behavior" and pays his "tithe". All the other brothers and the preacher at church think Joe is a swell guy because they only see him at "his best" and assume he is "living the lifestyle".

So, where is the dividing line between the worst person who barely squeaks into heaven and the best sinner who just misses the cut and winds up in hell assuming both genuinely believe? I've never been able to answer that. Best I can come up with is that a "genuine" convert is gonna eventually produce some "fruit" in his life but that puts me back to the beginning intellectually asking "how much is enough" ? Is one orange enough or does he need a whole sack full?

All of the Apostles including Paul greatly exhorted their followers to do good works. Everyone who talks about Paul remembers verses like Romans 6
:23 or Ephesians 2:8 but the same man who wrote those verses also kicked a guy out of the Corinthian church for having an affair with his step mother and said to do the same thing with others who claimed to be "brothers" but did certain things. So, works were expected to maintain membership in Paul's churches. But I still haven't found the answer of "how much is enough and how little is not enough" regarding salvation. About the guy screwing his step mother, Paul said and I paraphrase, "turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved". That is a little over my head but obviously Paul didn't think the man was going to hell, he just didn't want him around until he cleaned up his act.

So when I consider how holy God is and how truly sinful all of us really are, I come to the conclusion that he is going to either accept all of us jerks who believe in him (not a universalist by any means) or will accept none. The quality of our belief and the degree to which we trust him and not our own works could very well be the acid test. Its so difficult for people to not try to add some pitiful works to the finished work of Christ to attempt to "insure" their salvation. In the end, that may be the failure to walk the "narrow path" and enter into the "narrow gate" that Christ warned about. But there are a lot of genuine believers who follow the various "lordship doctrines" of faith plus works. I can't imagine that the grace of God is not big enough to cover their error if indeed they are in error.

I don't think we can find out all the answers this side of the grass.

Not quite. A misunderstood philosophy that the thief was saved when Jesus said “I will see you in paradise.”

Read 1Peter, this tell you that people are given the chance to redeem themselves after death, but it is not guaranteed…

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I love Paul. I'll meet him soon enough. He penned most of the NT by God's inspiration, instruction. Some are uncomfortable with women keeping silent in the church, and other things in books he wrote. Some try to interpret that specific scripture to mean something else, but it doesn't. He also wrote a woman cannot teach a man in the church. A bishop, or a preacher must be a man. The 1st chapter of Roman's condemns homosexuality. Queers don't like that. Either you take the bible as a whole, or forget it all together.

Wabi,
Are the answers different........this time?

Not quite. A misunderstood philosophy that the thief was saved when Jesus said “I will see you in paradise.”

Read 1Peter, this tell you that people are given the chance to redeem themselves after death, but it is not guaranteed…

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Paul proves apostolic succession and speaks out against unchastity. Plenty right there to make him unpopular.

Where do you see "apostolic succession"?

The other apostles and the church considered him an apostle and equal to the other apostles. They considered his writing and teaching to be equal to theirs in authority and consistent in context.

Anyone who developed or parrots a view outside that view speaks out of ignorance or is willfully misrepresentating the issue.

The other apostles and the church considered him an apostle and equal to the other apostles. They considered his writing and teaching to be equal to theirs in authority and consistent in context.

Anyone who developed or parrots a view outside that view speaks out of ignorance or is willfully misrepresentating the issue.