I’m curious on what would be ‘Your SOP’ if you arrived on scene of an active school shooting taking place before the Calvary arrived.

LEO, and Tactical bro’s chime in, as well as the rest of the feebs who could show up at a school that’s completely involved in gunfire.

My CQB skills are for one scenario. Because the rest of the scenarios would probably not materialize, before Police are on scene.

One man, alone. Hit the school entrance door, and follow the sound of the gunfire ~ weapon up and ready, as I’m clearing my path to the shooter. Engage shooter if he’s in my path.

If he’s inside a school room, I’m staying low, below the sight line of the window in the door, and reaching up to check if the door is unlocked.

Door Locked ~ Shît! I’m stepping back, but first a quick peek through the glass door ~ No target seen. I’m taking a shooting position at an angle through the glass, as I’m kicking or pounding on the door, hoping to draw the shooter into my sights through the glass. I’m shooting through the glass, if the target shows himself.

Door Unlocked ~ Gulp, breathe and a quick self talk…”I’m gonna survive this, but I’m going through this door, ready to fight like I’m already dead….Throw the door open, going in fast, head, eyes and pistol up, looking for my target.

God willing, I can unleash hell into the POS before I take a mortal hit.

The remaining CQB tactics should only get better if there’s 2,3 or 4 of us.

I want to say, this is a cops job only, but after Uvlade….Fûck that!


🦫

yep

Took too long, thought too much. Self talk when getting shot at gets people killed. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and everything should be instinct based on training.

Also, TacticalSh!t carries several things to defeat doors that are locked. And are legal in most states to own. I never leave the house without a bronco jimmy pry bar.


I like how specific and well thought out your write up was. Very clear And easy to follow.

Advance to the sound of the gunfire, and try to shoot the bast*rd. You might get killed. But, you may well prevail.

These school shooters are punks who do not have a strong warrior spirit. They will not stand up against a strong, ferocious attack. Even one person by himself might take the shooter out.

Any man worth being called one should at least try.

That'll never happen. He's not gonna come around looking to see who's kicking the door. He's gonna shoot you through the door and you'll die.


I'm not saying you shouldn't try. Gotta die doing something. But plans like this only work in theory and with sim rounds. As soon as real bullets are in play, a single person kicking an outward opening door dies. Every time.

What about when there's no sound of gunfire? Schools are huge and bad guys don't just fire like a metronome until you get there.

Yeah, that Uvalde nutjob was hidden in a closet in the classroom waiting on cops to breach the door.

He knows where you have to come in, but you don't have a clue where he is in there.

Need at least 3-4 on the breaching team. And at that, odds are pretty good one or more will be shot.

Poorly explained, on my part. I meant ponding or kicking at the door from an off side position.

Like you knocking on a door of a family beef, from the side, not standing directly in front of the door.

You suggesting it’s unlikely the shooter would show himself in the window, rather just fire through into the door, is again, most likely.

I’m stuck behind a locked door, though. I’m looking for some luck to happen ~ like the shooter needs to move inside the room to a position to fire on the door. While he’s moving into position, he’s exposed in the glass at whatever distance.

🦫

Are you asking what we will do before or after we sanitize our hands?

Wait, before I crash that door, gotta check my Iphone. Got a fresh text message from that web site I just found, lonelymojadosinblue.com

The Ulvade shooter dumped 100 rounds inside the room within minutes. Many active shooters have been in gauged in firing when police were on the scene and moving in. It does happen.

As for no sounds of gun fire being heard. That’s a different, and much, much slower scenario. One guy trying to clear rooms and move ahead, clear another room, and move, would be difficult/impossible before the Calvary would have arrived en masse...Solo-man would be done and escorted out of the school, most likely. Not to mention, possibly shot dead as the shooter. Gotta die sometime, right?

But, without hearing gun fire, look for children, teachers running away from an area, and yelling out ‘where’s the shooter’? ‘How many shooters’? Could give you an idea what direction to move.

You’re a cop. How about giving us your ‘SOP’ on being alone at a school and what you’re gonna do?

🦫

Who wants to die with dirty hands?

🦫

LOL.

Dumbshcitt that guy was a medic getting ready to treat wounded kids. Notice no gun. Notice doctor shoes. Notice rolling up sleeves.

That guy had the worst day of his entire life and you want to second guess him for doing what might be the smartest thing on the entire video.

Key board commandos bitching about the dumbest schitt.

What kid fighting for their life want dirty hands inside them?

And it's CQB not QCB.

Shoot the fugger before he goes in the school.

He wasn’t hiding inside the closet when he cut loose his initial barrage of fire. He wasn’t in the closet when he fired again once, then once again, then firing another 4 shots. All while cops are strung out, down the hallway.

This question is about, you, being alone, at a school with an active shooter. Are you going in, and if you do, what would you do?

I’m not looking to call out heroes or pussy’s. I’m just asking what someone would do, trying to think tactically and move to find, then engage a shooter.

Uvlade showed, what not to do.

🦫

Beav, the commander at Uvalde wrongly determined that the classrooms were a "barricaded shooter" type situation.

BAD mistake. Bad.

There were kids in there dying. Teachers were dying and bleeding to death for more than an hour.

Whenever victims/children are in the area the shooter controls, it should be an all out, no holds barred, "enter and kill" situation. Not a stand in the hallway with your thumbs up your ass, waiting for some incompetent boob to give the green light.

You should only wait for a couple of other cops to breach the area. If you are the only one there, and people are dying because the shooter needs stopped, then guess what? YOU are it.

In this Uvalde debacle, help was at hand very quickly. They should have organized and gone in. 3-4 of them. No crossfire situation.

A few others can secure the immediate perimeter to insure shooter doesn't escape, or enter other classrooms, but for Christ's sake, don't clutter the halls with puss gut cowards who have no intention of engaging the shooter.

Y'all must realize that this school shooter is not a Israeli commando badass. He is a weird, confused kid. He is real scared. He might be stoned on anti depressant drugs.
In the first big school shooting, Columbine, where the school resource officer, yes, cowered behind his patrol car while he listened to the children being killed, once the 2 punks made it into the middle of the school, when they knew the cops were coming in, they killed themselves.

Yes, of course, you go through that door you might get shot, but you might be the last thing the punk sees before he shoots himself.

I fixed my dyslexia in the original post.

🤷🏽‍♀️🦫

"If you are the only one there, and people are dying because the shooter needs stopped, then guess what? YOU are it."

That sums it up succinctly, rockinbbar. The Cheyenne Indians were a warrior culture. When they were mounting up, preparing to go into a battle, a warrior might say "It is a good day to die." This didn't mean he wanted to die, it meant that if he should die, defending his wife and his people, then he would have fulfilled his highest purpose in life.

John,

I looked at a frozen still picture of that guy, Glover put up. I’m fairly certain I saw a pistol on his right hip.

I was thrown, initially, by his swanky brown dress shoes. Maybe a Dick ~ Detective. Maybe, I saw a glasses or iPhone case, and he’s a doc.

🦫

Make entry and engage asap. No asking for permission bullschiet, no waiting. Disrupt shooter's ooda loop if he's worried about you he isnt killing innocents.

Tactics wise it's always better to have multiple to create angles, however you roll with what you have, even if it's just you.

With active loss of life, bypass injured to stop suspect, no matter who is injured. If you are injured, provide self aid. Everyone's focus should be on ending the active loss of life.

It's pretty simple. All of those who did not act accordingly should be held accountable.

[quote=simonkenton7]Y'all must realize that this school shooter is not a Israeli commando badass. He is a weird, confused kid. He is real scared. He might be stoned on anti depressant drugs.

Doesn't matter if it's a commando, kid hopped up on whatever, a 4 time felon, a first time offender, a NYC cab driver, rich old lady down the road, hobo huffing jankum, or whatever. Every situation is different, and all are completely unpredictable. In the OP's scenario, you push push push until you die or they do.

Your post was also well written in my opinion and I don't have anything contradictory to say regarding it. I just cherry picked this section to address it further, as I feel it warranted some additional discussion.

Rock, yeah, it was a cluster of enormous size and a shît burger those on site will be eating for the rest of their lives.

I’m no hero, but, I’m no pussy either. I can hold my shît in, put myself in danger when odds say, get going NOW, or a lot of people are going to die.

I want people, maybe like yourself, who have trained for this stuff, to offer some insight into what ‘they would do, being alone, and trying to make contact with a shooter in a school’.

🦫

Clear. Succinct. Correct.

I’m watching the full version now (1 hour and 45 min) of Fieldcraft Survival critique. At a little over 2 min in it shows a guy use hand sanitizer wearing street clothes and some body armor. It sure looks like he has a 1911 on his hip.

Getting yourself ‘switched on’ is part of it. Just running to your death, ain’t the best idea. You still have to think, have a plan that you’re going to try, and execute it.

Being alone, would suck, but at least if your plan worked or failed, so long as you didn’t shoot up a bunch of victims. You did something...Good on you.

🦫

I'm not gonna type out exactly what I'd do on the internet. it would only accomplish 3 things:
1-Give a bad guy a little bit of a tip about what good guys might do.
2-Give everybody here who don't have any idea what they're talking about something to argue with me about.
3-Not give the good guys a really good idea of what to do right because you can't just type all this stuff out.

No point in engaging in any of that. The Fire is a cess pool and I don't have the energy to argue with everyone about it.

"Going to the sound of gunfire" and "Pushing the fight" are a great start.

All I'm pointing out is that it's a lot more complicated than that. And the 30 pages of chest thumping that will follow this post will all be written by guys who will get shot and die because they'd didn't know what they were doing and were in a losing battle to begin with.

Uvalde undoubtedly did a lot of stuff wrong. Any lay person can see that.

But there's only a handful of people on this forum qualified to say what they should have done right. And that's a fact.

I'll add this.... I'm not disparaging the guys here who are willing to go get shot up. They're willing to do more than a lot of the cops who were there. And as long as the bad guy is shooting at you and not the kids, that's a win.

But being willing to get shot so kids aren't the target and actually solving the problem are two different things. Nobody seems to understand that.

I cherry picked again. Yes to all of these. I might be new to the Fire but armchair commandos exist everywhere.

I feel obligated to say that I've never dealt with a mass shooter, or a school shooting, but I've been involved in enough things to know that when the shooting starts, nothing ever goes as planned. And many people who think they're made of metal often are made of glass.

Using hand sanitizer at that point and time is one of the best "tactics" shown on the entire sad video whether the guy was a doctor or hard core pipe hitter.

I only have one thought, who dies first? Me or the shooter? So I have to be at my best.

You believe this?

What we got was and will get is

Schait and fall back in it then speculate and/or tell lies.

Same as has happened times prior, and will after similar events in the future..

Nothing will change

That’s fair. I completely understand why you, or others, wouldn’t provide a list of tactics. I probably wouldn’t either.

I only called you out because pointing to the Capt. Obvious, that most who would, caring a high emotional toll, and lacking training and experience, are just wading into a situation only to make it worse, or be killed themselves. Well, again, is obvious.

But, there is some who would try, and if they did, a little nudge in a right direction might be helpful.


🦫

Do I believe someone getting ready to treat victims of a mass shooting should use readily availble hand sanitizer instead of just standing around?

Is that your question?

Out of the entire timeline how much time did that guy take to clean his hands in preperation of treating wounded?

He litterally is only guy at that point in time doing anything smart.

It's a issue for the Key Board Commandos but based on that guys circumstances it was very smart.

. Oh. When I was an EMT, we used rubber gloves and didn’t need to sanitize our hands before donning them.

30 min. in

Synopsis: Complete lack of training

I actually thought you were being sarcastic

Thankfully I never have responded to an active shooter, hopefully I never will. But the above is what I have been trained, for years, to do. And it's what I expect from myself and my coworkers.

I have been apart of (albeit in a VERY minor role) in pretty much the most dangerous incident LE could deal with, and it's pretty sobering to see guys on an entry team willing to hang their azz in the wind to save someone they've never met.

Touch anything after sanitizing your hands and they’re not sanitized anymore. Going from one trauma victim on a scene to another trauma victim on the scene, and then onto another, and then another, and hand sanitation goes immediately out the window. You do whatever you can to stop the active bleeding. Period. Dirty socks, dirty shirts, belts, erasers, whatever. Severed arteries and blown up bodily organs bleed pretty profusely. Phuuk worryin’ about clean hands in a situation like that. Nothin’ you can do to keep em’ clean in a situation like that, other than not doin’ anything to stop the active bleeding.

Ok. If you say so.

Precisely.

If Biden had any fortitude he would ink an EO automatically increasing national school security budgets by 50%. It would have to go state by state, district by district but it could be done. Word legislation that it would have to be spent on ammo and training .

Well at least the first victim gets some protection.

Talk about trying to pick fly schitt from pepper behind the safety of a key board.

I'll say it again, the guy cleaning his hands did more at that point and time than anyone else in that hallway.

You’re the one who said it was one of the best “tactics.”

It’s equivalent to pissing in the ocean to raise water levels.

Maybe the hand sanitizer man was unconsciously following his training without even realizing it because of stress. When we trained with revolvers it was strictly a no no to catch your brass when reloading. We were told that cops had been shot with empties in their hand. You revert to training when stressed.

Protection from what…? The first victim is bleeding to death from massive tissue destruction and it’s gonna take stuffing the wounds with any kinda dirty object available to hopefully control the blood loss…!Says the guy insistent that clean hands are a priority in a mass-casualty trauma situation like this…!Which is completely irrelevant because no-one else in that hallway did anything…! He coulda scratched his nuts and it woulda been more at that point and time than anyone else in that hallway did…!

This. Having yourself prematurely removed from the situation doesn’t help anyone.

If I learned ANYTHING when in CQC in Fallujah and various towns in the Euphrates River Valley—it was to not rush into anything without thinking and certainly not if alone.

You won’t do anything but contribute to the problem if you’re DEAD.

Yeah, and that training prioritizes stopping the active bleeding by whatever means necessary in a situation like that. And clean hands ain’t even a consideration for the reasons already mentioned. That dude sanitizing his hands in that situation is, as AKwolverine so eloquently stated above, “equivalent to pissing in the ocean to raise water levels”.

If someone here was advising to sprint in the room out of breath and get shot in the face then some of your posts may be legitimate. I also understand the natural affinity to stick up for your profession. But clearly, the UPD and school district police officers were unprepared and unwilling to protect innocent life. Go to sleep with that thought and don’t bash someone else that takes their job seriously just to protect cowards in your own ranks.

There's two things normal, everyday people are having much trouble with, in the Uvalde tragedy.

1) How that nutjob could have planned and executed that whole thing.

2) How the police, who were trusted to protect children and other innocent lives... didn't.


Those are both square pegs that can't be pushed into any slot of the pegboard by rational, normal thinking people.

They just don't fit. There's not a reasonable answer for every question. There just isn't...

Whatever I did, I’d make damn sure to have my badass Vtac sling.

There’s lots of evil that exists in this world, and apparently an equal amount of cowardice.

And that’s the bottom line.And that underlines the bottom line.

It was very smart and good "tactics" for medical personel.

During the time he took to clean his hands what was every other swing dick in that hallway doing?

Dude was unarmed and was there to render aid after the shooter was neutralized. Medical personel don't lead the charge.

What's sad is you know this but can't just let it go because you want to feel outrage but can't fix it on the real problem.

Did you see someone near him bleeding out while he cleaned his hands?

Why did you hallucinate I said clean hands were priority?

For the 10 seconds he was cleaning his hands what did you expect a medic to be doing?

Stop lying. He wasn’t unarmed.

I know that you have the ability to admit when you are wrong, as you did it earlier. Consider it in this instance as well.

smh

Dude, clean hands in a situation like that aren’t even a consideration, at all, for anyone who knows their ass from their elbow about doin’ hands-on patient care in a mass-casualty trauma situation like that, for all of the reasons that have already been mentioned.

Others have pointed out that he was armed, and the shooter clearly hadn’t been neutralized yet. Medics alone don’t go into active shooter situations where the shooter is still active, and shots are still being fired. Medics alone go in after the shooter has been neutralized.

Here's a few unpopular opinions....
1-It's the cops job to do their job. But there's NOTHING they can do to stop this from happening again. Nothing.

2-The safety of those kids is ultimately the responsibility of the parents, not the government.

In light of those two, and knowing that nothing substantial has changed in Uvalde PD's training or quality of employee since this happened.....

How many parents are still sending their kids to school at Uvalde schools? That's the tragedy. Parents know the system is broken and they're still sending their kids there. In August the schools will be full of unsafe kids again.

You want change? Have your wife quit her job and homeschool your kids. When all the kids are gone and the school district loses all their money they'll get the message. Until then nothing will change.

Zero question he is medical. Zero.

Mike adresses this at 53;30 or so and while he might have a pistol on his belt he is mentally unarmed.

You arm chair comandos dwelling on a guy in a blue checkered shirt when all the real police are stepping on their dicks is why these kind of problems exist.

You want a simple easy place to unload your outrage.

Blue check shirt guy is not the guy that should be rushing in to confront the shooter.

He is the guy that probably saved the few that made it out of those classrooms alive.

Your emotion outrage because he did the smart thing and tried to clean his hands before giving life saving treatment is sad.

He did an irrelevant thing. Irrelevant. And you trying to make more of it than that doesn’t change it.

Then he had no business being inside of an active shooter situation with a still active shooter who is still firing off rounds and still killing children.

The fact that y’all are all arguing over hand sanitizer is why people with actual experience in the problem at hand won’t contribute to the conversation.

This thread now has nothing to do with Uvalde or future shooters. Now it’s about how everybody hates John and John insisting on how he’s right about a thing that doesn’t matter.

The hand sanitizer doesn’t matter either way. Anybody arguing about it is just showing their ignorance of the entire situation.

I won’t argue that, as you are obviously correct.

It is the nature of the campfire for tangents to occur and bùllshitters to be called on their búllshit.

True.

And maybe some who are contributing to the conversation regarding taking care of trauma victims have had experience…much of it…pertaining to mass-casualty trauma situations.

Both your points 1 and 2 are very reasonable

I would have tried to shoot him through a window first.
Failing that, try to get a description of the killer and compromise all the windows with gunshots, then low-crawl guys up to each window. Tell them what they should look for position-wise, description-wise. Also have some guys ready to breach the door. At the prompt from the radio, bust through the windows and door, shooting.

Well then in that case, you're wrong here. Unarmed medics in that hallway would be SOP for many places. And they'd be right for being there.

Eric,

If your point is that the guy using sanitized is a non issue that's fine.

I am going to say in that situation trying to clean your hand as best a possible is a good tactic for medical personel. He was medical personel.

You won't make me mad, and I suspect you don't care much if I am mad, for not agreeing but blue Checked Shirt guy had nothing better to do with his time at that moment. He was not ever going to be breeching the room.

The fact it is a focus point for so many as some massive fail on a day filled with many real massive fails is my issue.

What do you have on your hands that antibiotic won't treat? 🤣😂😂😂🤣

MRSA?

That hasn’t been my experience. In Texas, Oklahoma and Colorado, paramedics alone don’t go inside of an active shooter situation where the shooter is still active, and shots are still being fired, and people are still being killed. Paramedics alone go inside after the shooter has been neutralized.

4 pages and no pics of Kyle Lamb holding a Wyoarms AR? JFC….

Did Blue Check Shirt medical dude look like he was alone?

Holy fück this thread has spiraled.

Paramedics alone as in, he’s ‘only’ a paramedic.

I think you need to keep your finger out of your ass! 😂😂😂

shocker




This typically ‘never’ happens here…!

I had a small chuckle at that, as well. War is so sanitary. MEDIC!

🦫

Come on bruh, he’s gotta save that 100 million for a hospital in East Jerusalem for Palestinians.

🦫

John, just stop.

LOL.

My ass is by definition MRSA free as I am not suffering a MRSA infection.

That said MRSA is everywhere.

My good friend, the legendary Scott Steiert, is right now recovering from a MRSA infection and it's not a joke. Even for a guy who trained the guy who killed the shooter.

No?

Who hit you in the head with the smart stick these past several days?

I’ll consider taking back some of the shît I’ve tossed in your hair now.

Lol

🦫

I'm sitting right smack in the middle of Texas and know first hand what's happening here, from the largest to some of the smallest agencies and EMS departments.

The first older cop in civi clothes, wearing outer ballistic vest and armed only with a pistol, left all the young studs, except that one patrol cop with the carbine, standing behind in their piss.

Even that patrol cop with the carbine gave in to chicken shît little, when the civi dressed cop made a second attempt to push forward.

I truly wish that old cop had gotten a chance to kill the shooter. Maybe things would have been different if he checked the door handle, and had 3 cops stacked, and ready to push into the room.

🦫

Police are not obligated to protect you


https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/...ve-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

I’m very familiar with the same. Very. And it’s been my experience that in Texas, and Oklahoma, and Colorado that ‘only’ LEO’s operate in what is considered to be the Hot Zone until they determine it to no longer be ‘hot’. ‘Then’ the paramedics can go in and do what they do best.

OK, well I don't know how else to say it so I'll just say it again. You're wrong. I've seen it with my own eyes.

Monkey pox…

Then your experience as a police officer regarding EMS personnel in these situations has been very different from my experience as an EMS personnel regarding EMS personnel in these situations.

Nobody gave a teacher’s perspective.

I suspect a handful of teachers and coaches with outside doors and cars parked not far away keep handguns locked in their vehicles, the first thing they would want to do is arm themselves.

I know of a medieval reenactor who keeps a double bitted axe in his closet. I’ve had a 48” drain spade handy for years, plausible deniability - school garden and all that 🙂

Gonna have to do in the unlikely event of a close-quarters encounter, better than a sharp pencil.

Plan B is to borrow a gun from a student

Yeah, that's a shame for yall. Hope you catch up.

Pretty sad to denigrate those medical personel putting their ass on the line in the "hot zone" because they took 10 seconds to try and clean their hands.

Blue Check Shirt guy was medical personel and if he wanted to avail himself of some hand sanitizer while being much closer to the fight than you want to be I say that's smart tactics.

Litterally every single cop in that hallway would have better spent their time cleaning their hands that just standing around hoping someone else would handle the situation.

A big kghunt appears to have been rooted out. LMAO

Truth.

Blue, do you work at a large metro Police dept or Sheriff office?

From my knowledge at Portland PD, EMS/Fire stages outside of the area and awaits being told to come inside by police.

A situation with potentially large numbers of victims will have multiple EMS responders waiting to transport to major hospitals.

🦫

And if you quietly open the door when hes shooting kids?

Sounds like this was planned out pretty well by someone.

Catch up to what, exactly…?That’s been my firsthand experience…a bunch of it…as well. Not only in Texas, but also in Oklahoma and Colorado.

You must trust the training, you pigeon!

Lol

🦫

Tell that to any Liberal politician and they’ll say, “The police will save you”.

🦫

Yes, they're waiting outside until being told to come inside by police. But if the suspect is isolated the cops will bring them in before the bad guy is down. This stuff isn't new and it's all open source. It certainly shouldn't be surprising to someone in the EMS field.

This.

They never do it right. Big deal.

They ever do it half right. Huh.

They never do it 1/4 right. Dayom.

Coincidence?

I like Mike Glover’s podcasts . His explanations of tactics are excellent.

Blue can tell me to shut my yap but I do know for a fact, a documented fact, that he works for a large metro PD and/or a large sheriffs department as a firearms and tactics instructor.

He might or might not want to go deeper.

I’ve never seen or experienced that happening. Ever. In 35 full-time years of doin’ this kinda work. In three different states. In an active shooter situation, where the shooter is still active and still firing rounds and still killing people, I’ve never seen or experienced the police bringing in the paramedics ‘until’ the bad guy is down. Ever.

Mite be a chance, which those pukes didnt take.

You think thats a worse plan than theirs?

If you even jerk the door open with noise the shooter has to keep focused on it for LEO. Simple fact of life - and death.

Yet right on video we see Medical personel in what you call the "hot zone".

None so blind as those that won't see.

Roll on down in the video and watch a Medical guy take control of that hallway when the shooter get taken down.

1:11 in the video.



He took the time to don rubber gloves before he took charge.

Was he ‘just’ a medical personnel…? Others have pointed out that he was armed. Could it be that he was a LEO first and foremost, who was employed by a law enforcement agency, who also had some pre-hospital medical training (was also a paramedic)…? The “hot zone” was deemed so by LEO policymakers. And LEO’s typically carry rubber gloves.

Yes, he commended the medical guy with gloves on for taking charge of the situation. He only did that because there was such a lack of command and control. The narrator was trying to highlight positives as well as negatives of the LEO response. In the grand scheme it was picking fly [bleep] out of pepper like you say. There was exponentially (hard on material) more negative than positive at Uvalde.

It's fairly safe to say you and I don't agree often if ever.

The point is that medical personel were very close to the situation, as Blue explained would be protocal in that situation.

I have yet to see anyone on this site commending the tragic response by the Uvalde PD.



It's pretty clear when the shooting went down Blue Check Shirt guy was not expected to be a pipe hitter. It's litterally on the video.

But you continue bashing medical personel willing to get much closer to the fight than you feel comfortable because they used readily available hand sanitizer.

Amen, amen, and amen.

That’s What I like about Glover’s assessment. He doesn’t pull punches. If it’s fugked up, he calls it out and if it’s good he calls that out as well. You should retreat from trying to justify the local response in Uvalde in any way, shape, or form.

BULLSHIT.

That’s not the point. Paramedics working for outside EMS agencies don’t carry guns.Nope. I simply called BS on the assertion that you made over and over and over again that him using hand sanitizer was the smart thing to do under the circumstances, when in fact it was a completely irrelevant thing for him to do under the circumstances for the reasons that were given.

No
Still no.

We are calling bullshít on THIS:

Well....he said it would be unpopular. It's up to you what you make of it.

Or does that gore your ox?

Yep. Clearly. In a nutshell.

Any defense of deficient LEO is inexcusable. Our children are worth more than that. If you excuse that FU too. If not. Welcome

Uvalde PD screwed this up 7 ways from Sunday.

Also, my kids are worth enough to not trust some stranger from the government to protect them.

Amen!

👍👍

Arguing or defending the use and semantics of a hand sanitizer being deployed when kids and teachers were bleeding out doesn’t have a thing to do with what was happening 25’ft farther up the hall.

The hand sanitizer man wasn’t in the fight, and he wasn’t their to bring hurt to the shooter. He’s moot, as far as the video showed.

Yes, John and Blue, when tactical hitters show up on site and take control. They have team members who are also dedicated as Medic. All hitters have some med supplies on them, if they’re fully kitted out. You both know this.

But having a special and unarmed, medical person attached to a tact team at a police or sheriffs dept. I haven’t seen that before. Not saying other Department don’t have a different team config. I’ve just never seen this used in Portland.

Further...Yes, for a barricaded shooter, depending on the distance to the street and EMS/Fire. Police ‘MAY’ bring medical personnel in closer to where the assaults are going to take place.

But, during an active shooter situation, where rounds are being fired through walls, doors, widows, ceilings, etc...EMS is kept back at a distance considered safe.

My original question was...what would a solo man do who was armed and going into a school to make contact with a shooter.


🦫

Ain’t that a sobering thought, especially when it comes to children!

🦫

It's very clear from the video Blue Check Shirt guy was medical personel.

You can whimper and whine that he had a pistol on his belt but there was no scenerio in the world he was going to be or expected to be a breecher. He was there to treat the wounded.

Taking 10 seconds to squirt some sanitizer on his hands was good tactics before treating gunshot wounds. What other thing should he have done with that 10 seconds?

But you would never know because you won't get close to the "hot zone" until the the big boys make it safe.

Obviously, his kids are in private school Which begs another question. How would this unfold at a private school?

smh

When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

Yep. Clearly. In a nutshell.

Listening to Glover’s podcasts today, it sounds like retired SOG guys are involved in training our local PDs for active shooters. Get involved with your local governments to ensure they are fully trained . It’s a win-win situation for retired SOG to get PAID to protect our children through training of local PDs and sheriff departments . Like has been said here before it is a funding issue as much as anything else. Imagine if larger municipalities could afford to pay a retired SOG guy to head up your local school districts security. Imagine if a State could budget for their entire school district to be protected by retired SOG personnel. I know I’d fell better about it.

Edit: they can afford to hire the best training of LEO but they choose no do so.

The checkered shirt guy is armed. He’s got a Glock, holstered on his right hip. I’m thinking detective.

https://news.yahoo.com/top-texas-cop-says-hes-134221037.html

You can watch the 2 minute video of the guy and see the sidearm.


🦫

Pepper and fly [bleep] at this point.


But I agree dude is strapped with a 1911.

Look, I don’t know how else I can tell you guys so this time I’ll type real slow.

Just because y’all haven’t seen something happen doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen and I’m confounded as to why it’s so hard to wrap your head around the fact that things are different in different parts of the country. I’m 3 hours from Uvalde. I’ve never trained there but I’ve got a very, very good handle on how LE and Fire-EMS are trained to deal with active shooters in this part of the world.

Having unarmed medics attached to a tactical team is commonplace here and has been for a while. My first tactical medicine class, taught by an unarmed medic from a tiny west Texas SO attached to a tactical team, was 15 years ago.

Yeah, “considered safe”. And we consider safe a whole lot closer than the truck or across the street. They’re in the building while we’re still searching for the bad guy.

And the good ole boy system of LEO continues to protect its own. Pension over rides real change

Probably called in to check the guy who got crazed on the head.

Somethin’ you might also keep in mind before telling others, repeatedly, that they’re wrong.

Why are you flipping so much attitude?

If your comprehension skills are as good as your skills as a tactical instructor, you would have read I wasn’t attacking you, or saying you’re full of shît....I stated clearly, that I haven’t seen it done that way....And, other depts or agencies might configure teams differently.

Stop acting like you’re being put out on this thread. You haven’t offered much other than showing an attitude.

Check yourself!

🦫

The blue check shirt is probably not a medic or EMT. The 1st thing he does after applying sanitizer is put his left hand on the wall
Defeating any positive effect of sanitizing. Medic & EMT probably would not go and lean on wall with freshly sanitized hand.

The only thing I’ve said you’re wrong about is how things are done in my part of Texas. And you are.

I am checked. This is me being checked.

Hush.

What if someone wants to see unchecked Blue?

Asking for a friend.

For those who don't know, Burns likes it deep.

He also gets tingling sensation when i say his name.

My concern, Blue, is that your part of Texas isnt as big as i thought it was. Only because of what we saw happen is the Question asked by the OP.

Our responses, while maybe not up to your professional standards are often, though admittedly not perfect, many times better than what we've seen in not only Uvalde, but also im Columbine and Sandyhook.

The OP was not asking what acts we would do that would be perfect, but it appears to me we best be thinking of what we should consider that would be better than what we have so far seen from the law enforcement community.

Im sure those who took up arms at Concord and Lexington werent trained to bar none, but in the end, they got the job done.

Regarding the use of hand sanitizer, this is an elementary school—that place is like a petri dish.



How does Burns (tingling sensation again) know this strapped blue check shirt guy is medical personnel?


Maybe he really does have contacts at the fire department...

It's indelible on the hippocampus when the algo informs me you are speaking my name.

Because it's your thread I feel free to joke around a bit on a serious topic.

You started it.

You've got me confused with Beaver.

Everyone who says your name is not me, but some might be.

Only Renegade50 really knows the deal on that.

Are those medics that you refer to…who are called into active shooter situations before the bad guy is down (and still an imminent threat)…employed by the law enforcement agency who operates the tactical team to which they are attached…? Or are they employed by an external EMS agency…?

Two to the chest, then standing on the guys face?

Laffin.

🦫

LOL.

It must be the tingle.

To bad that 50 guy promised not to post until Sept. It's going to take something really really important to make him eat crow, swallow a yard or 2 of schitt, and do Rick Bin's job.

Personally I don't see anyone strong enough to pull him back in to the fray, but who knows?

Maybe he is just lurking on the sidelines waiting for the perfect azzhole to post the perfect post that draws him back like a doomed moth to the flame.

It would be tragic in a Shakespearian type of tragic but I would probably just point and laugh at the looser who couldn't keep his word.

That's just me.

A digk on your forehead may work.

René posted yesterday.


He's no looser than your mom.

Blue - nice to see you post my friend. Hope you and the family are well. Stay safe out there and God Bless -....

Yeah he's my bitch, if you mean the goofball with 50 in his user name.

I don't dwell on on it but it is what it is.

Can't imagine going all drama queen about not posting until September, that's just whinning for attention fron Rick Bin like a scorned teen age chick.

Not being able to keep your word is just pathetic on a whole nother level.

What a looser.

Tag for hand sanitizers

🦫

Sorry, I don’t speak Q. If somebody can translate I’ll be happy to comment.

Blue, you said your LEOs did things different in your part of Texas.
I had thought, until Uvalde, things were done your way all over Texas.
Evidently its not and i figure thats what Beavers timely thread is concerned about. The question was what should/would we do if confronted with such an incident.

With respect to the way Uvalde Leo acted by not acting, i think its a good idea to get others opinions.

None of the non LEO group think they would do things perfectly, but the actions many indicate they would take would probably have resulted in a better outcome than standing around letting 34 innocent people get shot, even though all admit some guys maybe would have gotten injured or died.

Evidently, the idea that all prospective good guys survive and go home at the end of the day is only the idea thats popular in much of the LEO community and is not shared by a lot of guys on the Fire.

I realize the farmers in Lexington and Concord were not defending a classroom and many died due to not being perfect warriors.

Still, their lack of perfection didnt keep them from getting the job done.

Its apparent to me situations like Uvalde dont afford us the luxury of waiting for teams of professionals at tnis type of thing to be bussed in from major cities.

BTW, its sure nice to see you back on the Fire and its great to hear your hints for dealing with something like this and i hope your family and the boys are doing well and that God keeps you safe out there.

No, of course you don't. lololol. <------- No, that's not laughing about the Uvalde tragedy, it's laughing at you.

Jag, that was the essence of what I was asking information about.

I had hoped more untrained, but gun savvy members would have offered what they might do, if they were alone and first at a school with a shooter inside.

I don’t fault Blue for his lack of information in his posts. He stated what a well trained, tactical LEO would say. ‘Civilian, stay out of the fight’....‘You’re probably going to make a situation worse, die, or maybe both’. Copy that!

But, there is still individuals, in a perfect storm, who might have a kid inside or wife, and are going in, if they are on site before police have arrived.

I thought some of the well trained, here, would offer some guidance like Rock did, and even Jackson Handy. Blue, did offer some advice. We might not have liked it. But, I get his POV.

As for a school with a shooter, I’m going in. Full stop!

I was called a ‘pussy’ by a member once, who doesn’t post much anymore for saying in Mall shooting, ‘I’m not going to chase down a shooter(s)’ but instead, I will draw my weapon and get people out of the mall. Return and repeat the same.

I went on to explain, if the mall shooter was in my proximity, I’d be in a gun fight. But to chase through a mall, hunting down a shooter, to me has too many variables, and they’re mostly bad. Like other armed civilians who think I’m the shooter. Or the police coming in from different entry points and I’m seen as the shooter and dealt with by a barrage of AR and MP5 fire.

I know, for the most part, nobody will be armed inside the school, except me, until the cops arrive. Gun Free Zones being what they are....And these are kids in small confinement classrooms just waiting to be slaughtered. To me a school is an entirely different situation than a Mall shooter.


🦫

Interesting question, though the thread seems to have taken a bunch of left turns.

As a person who has never taken any Uber tactical door kicking classes, I hope I would close the distance quickly and engage/fire on the suspect at first opportunity. Basically just move quickly and keep moving as I engage.

If he’s behind a locked door and shooting kids, try to hit him through the door or wall. If he’s hiding and not actively shooting, maybe look for cover and figure a way to press an advantage.

I dunno. Some thing has to be better than nothing.

I never said "stay out of the fight". In fact, I said "you're gonna die, but you've gotta die doing something".

I did say you'd most likely die, especially doing some of the good idea fairy things people have planned, and that's true. And yeah, you may make things worse, depending on what's happening. In Uvalde, I don't know. In my town? You'd undoubtedly make everything worse and probably get other people killed.

______________________________________

There's lots of good training out there centered around this stuff available to everyone. But for a live class the students can be vetted beforehand. This conversation is archived for the entire planet for forever.

_____________________________________

My point in all of this has been to point out that it's not nearly as simple as the forums are making it out to be. UPD did it wrong, but that doesn't mean that any dude off the street can do it right. For instance, in no particular order and not directed at anyone in particular because these same ideas are being floated around all over the internet:

Move to the sound of gunfire--What about when it stops? What then? You're in a school with a gun with cops coming? What now? You gonna hunt him down and search every room alone? The shooter in Uvalde shot a lot, but sporadically. There were long stretches of silence too.

Kick the door to distract him--He's gonna shoot you through the door and you'll die. Gotta die doing something, but now there's a body in front of the door the next guy has to deal with. Now you're dead, you didn't help, and you made things worse.

Shoot him through the glass in the door--The doors had safety mesh in the glass. Ever shot through that? Know what it'll do to your bullet trajectory?

Shoot him through the door--Same thing. Shoot him through a steel door, with a room full of kids..... Really? How's that gonna work out. You're gonna hit a kid, most likely.

Shoot him through a wall--Yeah, let's shoot through a wall.

______________________________________

It's really, really hard to get this stuff right. That's why UPD got it wrong. And no matter what you do, kids are gonna die. It's as simple as that.

I am in your head obviously.👍👍👍

I posted twice in reference to your dumbazz recently.
This is #3.
I enjoy fuuucking with little napoleon complex fuuuckwads who live vicariously thru others like you.
When and how I choose.

My 1st post context you selectively quoted.
I invite users to go check that out via my post history.

Selective quoting is a total bytch move.
Something you seem to do frequently on here.

My 2nd post in reference to that selective quote of yours broke you down like a cheap shotgun and pretty well layed schit out about you in a nutshell.
You had 0 reply to it on that thread.
Musta hit some nerves with you, was it the tax cheat reference in it possibly???
Or possibly your broken moral compass or lost integrity if you ever had any at all to begin with, in all aspects of your life?



Anyone can look at my post history since 19 june if they care to do so and see that you are a bytch basically.

And also see that you did not make me start posting again.

So that is a total bullschitt lie you made up in your over inflated melon....

Hell someone on here today might even dig up that link with the animated clip robo voice. From when you said you was gonna cry to Bin and get members banned on here for busting on your little bytch azz.
How did that all work out for you " Mr. I have influence and will get you banned on here guy"

I have read enough about you on here posted over the years by many members in varying aspects about you, to basically arrive at the conclusion you are a POS with about 2 or 3 dumbazz,s who actually support you.

97 or 98 out of 100 think you are a douche bag basically.

Hmmmmmmmm.........


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

John 15: 9-17 (To be in Paradise. Ha, the leftists look for Utopia in all the wrong places).

“This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.

Beaver10;
Top of the morning to you my friend, I hope you're having a decent weekend and are getting the weather you need.

Thanks for the interesting reading in this thread, though for sure as Mooner has said, it's taken a couple twists and turns.

While I know a couple LEO who did kick in doors as part of their duty, the closest I've come to anything discussed here is wading into the pucker brush for wounded bears a time or three and then doing the same for bears who weren't hurt, just reluctant to move along and be good bears.

One of the LEO mentioned above has hunted with me a number of times and said it's not totally different - to him - but again that's the sum total for me.

For the bear thing then Beaver, I tried to make as little noise as possible while advancing in a somewhat timely manner. Focus was never a problem - it went into a sort of hyper drive actually.

Perhaps as hunters we'd be more prone to concentrating on shot placement? I clearly recall thinking about the fact there were only 3 opportunities for me to make noise before I'd have to reload.

Anyways I apologize for the bear analogies, but as a non LEO/veteran, that's as close as my personal experience has come.

All the best and thanks again.

Dwayne

Nice to see you back, Rene.

You have been missed.

Clue: Others, not so much.

Blue,

Only two questions for you, and yes or no is fine.

If you are alone, in street clothes, armed only with your edc sidearm, are you going in?

If you do go inside the school alone, are you going to die?

🦫

If the shooter is actively killing/shooting kids in the school, then yes, through walls, doors, windows.

It’d beat to hell hiding out in the hallway, waiting on cops, and watching him murder mine or my neighbors kids.

Great things to consider, BC.

"Kick the door to distract him--He's gonna shoot you through the door and you'll die. Gotta die doing something, but now there's a body in front of the door the next guy has to deal with. Now you're dead, you didn't help, and you made things worse."

Not necessarily. You do not have an Israeli commando in there. If you did have an Israeli special forces guy, yes he certainly would kill you.
You have a screwed up, mentally ill kid. There is a good chance that when you kick the door open, he would kill himself. That is what the 2 shooters at Columbine did.

You go through the door, if he doesn't kill himself, he might shoot at you and miss, giving you the opportunity to kill him. And he might shoot and kill you.

And then there are many reasons to stand around and do nothing as the Uvalde cops demonstrated.

This punk kid is not capable of withstanding an aggressive and ferocious attack, and yes, even some amateurs could take him out.

Like your take on it

He would have a much better chance of succeeding than some who haven't been trained, he is also a top-tier competitive shooter. I don't know if Flave competes but from what I've heard he is exceptional as well. I'm better than the average person but know while going through that door I'd more than likely be shot, if I was lucky I might get off 2-3 shots before getting hit.

Dwayne, the weather here has been awesome the last 3 weeks. I’m getting in some needed work around the property and a lot of gun fun on paper and steel.

As for your bear analogy. The pucker factor would likely feel similar as your working your way through dense brush to find a wounded bear. Sight and hearing being turned way up.

I can’t speak with any experience what it would feel like, slowly walking down a school hallway looking to make contact with the shooter. I don’t have anything to reference that against personally. Your bear analogy sounds good to me.

🦫

Never woulda thought that there's a secret squirrel way ta go through a door, that's so powerfully effective that if you were told bout it, you'd hafta be killed.

You can correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the kid-shooter got some rounds off at the tactical entry team when they entered the room.

He didn’t die by a self inflicted gunshot, he died by cop.

I would never go into any shooting situation anticipating the shooter will do himself at my mere presence.

🦫

I figured you’d knock real politely . Maybe stick your head in if no one answered. Gun at low ready obviously. Laughing

I don’t think that’s what Simon was saying. I think he was pointing out that you certainly have a shot at winning. Maybe a small one, but it ain’t a give that you’re gonna die.

Knock knock… Uber eats delivery for John. Is there a John here?

BLAM!

Still beats hiding in the hallway while your kids or your neighbor kids get shot and bleed out.

And as far as going to the sound of the guns and clearing a fuuucking building or a room on your own or in a team.
And killing a man or taking fire and having your men get hit or killed.

You don't how your gonna react .
But the bottom line is go to the sound of the fuuuucking gunfire.
And engage the POS on your own fuuucking initiative.
Put your azz on the line and do your fuuuuucking job..
JFC..... it's that fuuucking simple.

You are a cop and you hear gunfire in a fuuuucking school...
Kids are being fuuuucking killed.
Go put your azz on the line and do fuuuucking something about it.
Just dont fuuuuucking sit their and do zilch listening to gunfire and screaming.
JFC.....

Same fuuuucking bullschit in Broward county......


Fear is a strong thing.
But it ain't a excuse when your job is the protection of others..


Even with training and situational conditioning it is their but you can work with fear and tuck it away somewhat.
And do your job as a individual or in a team/ higher unit like you have been trained to do automatically.

It's when you lose fear is when you become careless.

I been in Mout fights in Ah Najaf, Karbala, Baghdad, and waaay to many in Mosul during OIF 1

0 mout fights in desert storm.

But I also trained for years thruout my time as a "lowly 11B" in mocked up engineer tape houses.
Dry, blank, and live fire shoot houses of various configs all over the planet.
Shugart Gordon and Pat Cassidy Mout towns dry, blank, and blue sim rounds.









Bottomline is those cops were fuuuucking cowards and alot of kids got killed while they sat around finger fuuuucking themselves.

Total fuuuucking bullschit that 1st cop didnt shoot that pos outside.
Total fuuucking bullschit the others on scene in that hallway retreated from that engagement and then the whole fuuucking clown show that gathered after sat around doing nothing.


And meanwhile you got parents going in that school into the unknown getting their kids.

Why this LE force in this town has not been fired
All of them.
Is beyond me...

Or a 2 for 2 replacement from outside agencies coordinated thru the fuuuuucking union has not been implemented.
Gotta be some good officers who would gladly relocate to that town and protect it.

And the new LE,,s never partnered up with these cowards.
And that policy announced to the public to build some" trust".
And the program done till everyone of them cowards carte blanche no matter who they are or what they did that day is off that force.

Hey you can stay in our town but ya cant be a cop anymore or work any local .gov type job.
Or you can relocate to another town per the union plan and be a traffic cop.


I cant imagine the underlying hatred that exist in that town against that current police force right now...

Gotta be guilt by association hate going on big time by that towns population towards it's police force.

I’m aware, Rog on what both Flave and Blue are to the degree they have shared here. I’m certain both have vastly more experience and training that has been shared, as well.

I’m solid with a pistol, rifle, and shotgun. But that doesn’t make me ready for an actual gun fight with a shooter inside a closed off classroom. Hence the questions about tactics.

🦫

Beaver;
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

Again I'm acutely aware that bears are not capable of shooting at me, so that changes everything or at least many, many aspects of the situation.

That said, the last problem bear who got a Lightfield less than lethal rubber slug for his efforts, I recall reloading reflexively after that shot - only 5 in the mag tube on that one. My practice for unwounded ursine problems is a Lightfield first followed by 4 Brenneke.

When going over what I did right and what needed to change, I gave myself a check on the positive side for that.

As my cyber friend Brother Blue said, we're all going to die some time doing some thing. Over the past couple of years I've given a fair bit of thought and meditation on "how we die" and have arrived at a few conclusions.

Thanks again and all the best.

Dwayne

That’s a novel approach. I like it.

Maybe throw in Cannabis Delivery for the Hoodie Dude.

🦫

I had never considered intervening until Beaver asked as i would just let it go and be handled by the popo.

But Beaver got me thinking.

f it were me and i had no confidence in LEO i would enter the school. With no shooting going on i dont think anyone would be stupid enough to start busting into closed rooms, so that would prevent stupid act No1.

That would necessitate what anyone with a brain would have done. Wait. Think what to do. Was a pissed off hubby taking out a cheating dimocrap wife?

Boom, boom.

Move that direction.

Wait. More booms,

Find the room.

I nor anyone else here is kicking in an outward opening door. So that rules out stupid move No2.

Standing by door pretty much rules out stupid move No3 (getting shot through the door).

All schools should of course have outward opening doors as my cousin had done to every door in the Texas Prison system for the simple purpose of preventing barracading.

(Which makes me believe the later dreamed up EXCUSE was they came up with after the public started asking questions. It was a liying BS excuse and if the doors did open inward it was still a lying made up BS excuse because 1. Kids were getting shot, 2. Kids were bleeding out. These two facts rule out declared Barricade situation. So that too was an illegitimate excuse. 3. They had tools to bust through, 4. They never tried turning the door handle.

Conclusion. The didnt want to open the door.)


Back to the task.

Grab door handle and turn. If it turns, only then the danger begins. . Presuming one could hear and see for LEO arriving. If one couldn't hear or see they wouldn't even be there.

So these simple, not Rocket Science, actions anyone with a brain trying to intervene would naturally follow, the real crap probably wouldnt happen until the door opened.

word

BS., you two crazy badstids would prolly be all jecked up nervous and running through the halls chooting fleeing kids an techers. There, you two dummies would prolly kill tha janitor.

Smart thing would be find a general layout or floor plan. Turns out that classroom had doorway to the neighboring classroom. That may be an advantage . Round of applause though for being on scene in three minutes.

I do compete but I do it locally and more to test equipment and gauge how I'm doing against top level guys than anything else. I'm pretty sure Blue is a Master Class in at least one Division which means his cock glistens like diamonds when hit by sunlight.

I would happily enter a school and attempt to locate and shoot someone by myself. Not because I think it's going to end well but because I have no problem leaving a world packed full of COVTARDS.

A lot of people don't understand how difficult it is to clear rooms as a team much less as an individual. Tunnel vision, adrenaline and fatigue are very real. And if the subject is moving you have no way of knowing where he is at any given time and you may very well have to cover the same real estate over and over if you don't have anyone to maintain areas that have already been checked. I know everyone has Uvalde fresh on the mind but imagine the complexity of entering Columbine by yourself. There were not only multiple shooters, but there were IEDs everywhere. I subscribe to the principles of "something is always better than nothing" but you could argue that sometimes that something ends up being a detractor because the person giving their best is a fugking moron.

There is nothing horribly complex about clearing areas by yourself. You just have to acknowledge that it's high risk. But that doesn't mean you can't win. If you have guys do Force on Force training just one on one it almost always becomes a 50/50 of who will "win" but most frequently you will see both individuals with multiple simunition hits on each other. A few constants are rifle beats handgun most always and more light is better than less light when the Christmas lights stop working.

I think one of the most smartest things a person can do is just help get as many people the fugk out of there as possible if there are groups of people about to seek and destroy. The guy in Uvalde is a good example but as Blue already mentioned, not all AORs are equal and his successes were probably due in large part because it was a small community and the cops knew him. It sounds like he gave those people the ability to snap out of it and at least do something. And they did all this independent of everyone else.



I have done lots of things and am well known for being an overall great person to have around when on or off-duty. But the only real motivation I have for doing those things is that I want to be on TV and I want people to love me and I want a reason to make fun of the person that didn't do what I did. Actually those are my only motivations for doing anything.

So, yeah. Grab gun and go shoot the fugking guy. It's not like any of us really have anything better to do anyway.

This concludes your period of instruction.

1-You only know he was a screwed up, mentally ill kid through the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

2-Even though he was just a screwed up, mentally ill kid, none of what you predicted happened. When officers approached the classroom door she shot at them through the door.

What I'm saying is exactly what happened.

Trav,

Cool, and thanks!

- Mark

Just shut up and shoot blindly through walls like a real man.

I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.

Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.

Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.

Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control.

It works in the movies, why not in Uvalde

All of which is moot when you consider just how fugking dumb your average school teacher is.

The majority of them are far more concerned by somebody sneezing without a mask than they are keeping the building secure.

Lol. Don’t be so [bleep]. You’ll end up like Burns.

There is that.

That level of vitriol is uncalled for! 😁

Didn't go through all 20 pages of this thread, but...one of the biggest things overlooked IMHO is the hindsight of knowing there was only one shooter. Unidentified armed parents running around randomly in the middle of a situation like this, with the possibility there are two or more other shooters in the building...what could go wrong?

Good post, SLM!

I took one of the posts who said he carried a ‘Jimmy Bronco’. I looked it up for giggles. Depending on the length of the bar, maybe it would work, but I’m not carrying anything in my hands but a pistol.

Then I looked up a current school door design. No frick’n way would the average guy, alone, be able to open the door.

Can we get some Sapper training next for breaching a door alone?

🦫

Lots.

Still no excuse for sitting on your hands while kids are getting killed.

Great discussion. Informed opinions most likely all from people who always carry a serious firearm and train regularly...and know some serious pipehitters.

And thanks to those with useful real world experience who were willing to cast their pearls knowing how they would be received by the CF cognoscenti.


mike r

I dont know if the cops made any noise in the hall to cause the perp to fire through the door. Whether he was very scared or very smart, it worked.

The cops did flee to safety. I wounder if they considered that the kids had no place to flee to saftey.

What happens in a fire?

“ There is no way to override the lock.” Like deflave eluded to, teachers do some stupid things for convenience that render the system useless.

If everything is installed correctly, the mentioned bar will not get you through a modern school door.

Laffin’.

They are passive from inside the class room. If you are talking a rescue or search operation during a fire, every school I know of has multiple Knox boxes with master keys. If not, a K-12 makes pretty short work of a door if used properly. Modern sprinkler systems have greatly reduced fire threat.

Apparently this school did not have these sort of doors and locks? The crazy boy was able to get in.

I have not read this whole 200+ post discussion but what is the big issue with the medic washing his hands? Did that do something to change the outcome?

Is it feasible to hack through an interior wall? That was a breaching technique thirty years ago.

I’d hate to speculate not knowing anything about TX schools access control. In NM, with a properly utilized system, he could not have wandered into the school, much less a classroom. Like deflave alluded to though, the system is there, but teachers and staff have to use it as designed.

That’s it. In a nutshell.

I know a guy that has an entry level job at a local elementary school. He just waves teachers through the gates and walks the grounds during the day.

He said five days after Robb Elementary he had to report three different doors being propped open. His report was met with eye rolls by all involved.

This is about 15 minutes from Parkland by the way.

School staff are some of the worst people walking the earth.

As a last resort yes, but there are much faster ways.

Yes, and it's one of the things ALERRT brought up in their AAR. But just like he had already done, he'd just shoot you as soon as you started knocking a hole in the sheetrock and pulling out insulation.

It would be a good distraction as someone else made entry, but you're not gonna solve the problem alone doing that.

What if I had a bazooka?

Or a shape charge?

Mr. Smarty Pants.

Building clearing is 1 of the most dangerous jobs a solider has. The military can use explosives to berach entry. Not a viable tact in a school shooting

Bazooka's are obsolete

What is a K-12?

I’m assuming that “hack through an interior wall” was code for “fire blindly through a wall into a room full of children because I’m helping”.

Except the first guy through the classroom door did not get shot . Nor the second or third guy .

K-12, Well kids start off in Kindergarten (K) then1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade, 4th grade, 5th grade, 6th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade, 9th grade (freshmen they get picked on) 10th grade, 11th grade, 12th grade (they pick on the freshmen)

The first officers on scene were shot through the classroom door.

“…after the Uvalde schools police chief failed to take charge, better-equipped departments should have stepped up to fill the leadership void.”

https://apple.news/A2PBsmPmoQm-4XDRE8vSoig

“In total, 376 law enforcement officers — a force larger than the garrison that defended the Alamo — descended upon the school in a chaotic, uncoordinated scene that lasted for more than an hour. The group was devoid of clear leadership, basic communications and sufficient urgency to take down the gunman,…”

Walls, accordin ta the timeline Flave linked.

The checkered shirt dude was a cop who had more Covid concerns for himself than the safety of the children.

🦫

Hey, there are newsmen and photographers there.

Saw where Mr. Casaday posted about that training where Fire, EMS, and Police all train together weekly for active shooter training.

That's the way it's done!

Frankly I'm surprised y'all have the funds after what polticos did to y'all....

Little snotty nosed rug rats are full of dangerous pathogens. Walking, talking petri dishes i tell you.

A handheld circular saw designed for fire service. It is heavy and powerful and has been the standard for many years.


mike r

I can remember back when school districts were first implementing security cameras and the first card key door lock systems.

It was the teachers who pitched a bitch about being on camera and having their card key showing where they were going and coming back from. Smoke breaks was a big deal to teachers.

🦫

Now hold on there, Mister. A well designed shape charge of ‘plastique’ is a master key.

😬🦫

Incorrect . They did not advance through the door.

Boy I missed the mark on that one by a country mile.

It is quite the naming coincidence, being that the discussion is grade schools here.

Well Iron Bender like 92 yrs. old so i figured he didn't make it past 8th grade. Had to take over the family chicken farm at 15.

They have a MOLLE System for packing that?

🤷🏽‍♀️🦫

Yeah, I know. When they got close he shot at them and they ran away.

You shut up and get back into the bedroom.

Lol

🦫

I can't believe they let him talk on TV. It's so embarrassing.

But yeah, everybody here is on the same page. Not Uvalde's page, either.

You must be proud of hallucinating that I excused any such thing. Nothing like that was written in this exchange. Don't give a hoot if you welcome me or not with your hair trigger FU. Frankly, I'd run with a better crowd.

So these are reserved for big city LEOs?

Does anyone know how BORTAC opened the door? I couldn’t make it out in the video.

Was the door unlocked, like has been mentioned, or did the Team have to use a can opener?

🦫

I think you might of missed the mark on this Blue. I'm pretty sure Ranger_Green is a former Batt Boy and big city cop on the West Coast.

Reserved? I doubt it.

Portland SERT will use explosives to take a door out, if need be.

🦫

My understanding was it was “unlocked”.

One of the tricks teachers use is tapping the plunger down or tapping over the strike. Total far fetched guess, did the Chief try the handle and assume he was locked out without trying the door? “Try before you pry”.

I know it's difficult to watch an hour and 45 minutes of video but it goes through all these things very clearly.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...e-school-shooting-timeline-and-breakdown

Gotcha...The Chief was busy conducting negotiations in two languages with the shooter to ask his guys if the door had been checked for being unlocked.

🦫

Thanks, Beav. Sorry i missed adding this. Dayom. Youre a mind reader too.

Door was unlocked

It didnt need locking. Just saying.

Ok,

Somebody coulda got a hand shot off.

I watched all of it. I must have missed it.

I could only make out fast movement, but it was from the vantage point of that same camera down the hall.

🦫

Copy

🦫

Did anybody even think to fire up a BBQ?
That's a lot of cops to feed!

I watched the video and watch a lot of his stuff. Not disputing him or anyone else, but the school looks to be newer construction, even if it’s not, most every older school in NM has gone through security upgrades. There is no way to “unlock” the hardware, it is passive on the interior and keyed exterior. Every school I have been in has this hardware. Again, not arguing the point, it just goes against everything I know.

Well they had to watch this video first, cell reception sucked inside the school video kept freezing up.

All the schools in my area are built of concrete block construction. Including all interior walls. You could saw through them with something like the K12 and bust them out with a sledgehammer but it's gonna take some time.

Around here teachers put a little magnet in the door frame that keeps the door from closing fully and locking up. There is so much in and out kid traffic throughout the day they don't want the constant need for someone inside to push the door open every time a kid leaves to go to the restroom, go to their locker, or get a drink or is called to the office. To lock down the teacher would need to go to the door and push it open enough they can grab the magnet from the frame.

The entire situation goes against what everybody knows.

The ALERRT report states that they believe the door to room 111 was unlocked at the time of entry.

Maybe they should start with ‘baby steps first’ and lock all exterior entrance doors.

🦫

I don't get it, man. I don't track you, but you seem to never stop with this kind of schit. Do you really think it's helping spread the good word for your rifle company?

Maybe they should. Bet they won't. Outer door securement in public buildings seems to be viewed as optional.......still. Schools, churches, restaurants, you name it. Federal buildings being a possible exception - but they have reason to expect trouble.

Hey man he’s hanging loose with a retired D-force operator…

I trust Blue's knowledge and believe what he is saying. Taht said in the area i work EMS is staging until the situation is over. that satgging amy be right out side the building , or in a parking lot but they wont be inside. Add to that, we don't even have a SWAT team in our county. in fact unless one is requested from across the state line the closest team coming is more than three hours away. we do have a multiple agency task force that trains toether on various situations and scenarios, but we don't have a lot of fancy toys, or high speed gear.

Again, I can only speak to NM, but every exterior door has access control, either through a card reader or key. Most schools work through an FMS which makes card readers inoperable during off hours. There is a camera and call button at main entrances, once in the reception area, most front desks have a remote key pad to allow access to the school. Most districts even have protocols regarding bus loading, off loading and parent drop off and pick up regarding which doors are open.

Now the rant, after the shooting, many of the teachers that I have personally seen make access control inoperable were on social media ranting about their safety. If a schools access control is used as designed and installed, it is pretty dam hard for Joe blow to get in.

If you're going to host training it's a good idea to include Fire and EMS so everybody understands what they're supposed to do. They can even instruct the IFAK portions of the curriculum because it's best for the gun toters to fully understand that nobody is breaking off to treat casualties as they're encountered. The EMS/Fire personnel should be peeling off and handling that while the gun guys move on.

They don't need to be making room entries 8" off the team's ass but there's no reason they can't be in close proximity as different areas are cleared.

I did catch that, if the plunger is made inoperable or the door is not allowed to fully close, it would not be locked. “Tested the door” is what I was referring to. If the plunger is inoperable or the door is held open fractions, the handle may be “locked”, but the door is not. I might be way off, but I can not see lockable/unlockable hardware in a classroom in todays world.

Fershure.

The door was removed and in evidence when the ALEERT team did their assessment.

Which, isn't good...

You would think so. But I doubt it, especially one area in particular that I won't mention on a public forum. At that one spot about 90% of the time it is unlocked during the day.

In the tactical world is ICS/NIMS utilized? If so, who in your opinion dropped the ball as far as accountability/control?

At what point and who should have assumed IC when it was apparent there was no command with so many resources on scene?

They should have gone in right away when they got there, the prep would have more than likely been distracted by the chaos going on. Instead, they gave him time to regroup.

I've never been taught anything regarding IC. If the person causing the problem is alive or not in cuffs in the back of a caged unit you can do whatever the fugk you feel like.

I would never listen to anybody in a situation like that. It's no different than a structure fire as far as I'm concerned.

Now keep in mind, you are taking risk by thinking like that but... Who gives a fugk? I wanna be Batman.

I knew you guys had connections on the fire department.

So what you're saying is that even when the doors are locked on the outside, the people on the inside can still open them?

Who invited this amazing technology!

Comment rejected. You didn’t use enough words.

Interesting note. Toward the end of that report the issue of the 148 yard shot was addressed. The author states it WAS NOT THE SHOOTER that the officer saw but a school coach interacting with students. Guess it’s good he didn’t get approval to fire, if indeed true.

My agency trains NIMS. We’ve opened IC post to deal with drawn out situations and will take control when there is a need for major resources and logistical support.

In something like this, unless it takes place on state property, we usually defer to the local agencies and help where we are told to.

They learned how to check doors from Burns friend.......

Nothing says we’ll trained like “hey Mike can I shoot this guy?”

Blindly attacking a room full of innocents is very different than hitting a house full of criminals. Be objective and ask yourself how many of those kids you're willing to kill yourself to get the bad guy?

There is no absolute solution, but (real) cameras in every classroom being monitored would probably have saved a lot of lives.

Teachers will not allow this.

I read the timeline but didn’t see when the lockdown announcement was given to the whole school. I do recall three minutes from the time teacher 1 was yelling from the doorway when she saw the shooter outside to the time the shooter entered a classroom (teacher 1 kicked away the rock and shut the outside door, apparently did not check to see if it was locked).

In classrooms I’m familiar with there’s a panic button, which sounds off in the Admin office, typically they respond by asking you the problem over the classroom speaker. Time lost.

Alternatively Teacher 1 or another teacher she alerted may have called the Admin office instead, cell or landline. Same, same, a receptionist has to answer the phone, receive the message and communicate it to Admin. Time lost.

The hallway video has audio, I don’t recall hearing any announcements.

Early on it was reported Uvalde schools have frequent lockdowns due to Border Patrol pursuits of illegals in the area, that may have contributed to the response of the school staff also.

Everyone is only interested in everything except this.

Well...we know how many they were willing to lose to not attack.

How many kids would YOU be willing to shoot to get to the bad guy?

Roger is right.

Again. How many kids are you willing to shoot to get to the suspect?

Easier to let the bad guy kill them all first I guess.

You may not like that question, but it's the one you have to answer before you hit that door

If that is true, it points to another reason I have harped on this as being an issue. The supervisor was not seeing what the officer was shooting. No supervisor in their right mind is going to "yes, shoot." A smart supervisor will punt the decision back to the officer asking permission, or better yet, tell the bumblefuggk to go home for the day.

I don't mind the question at all.

The situation improves when the threat is eliminated.

Eliminate the threat.

True Pat, I'm not trained in this stuff but it just takes common sense. the first cops went up that hallway, shots came through the wall, not the door, at that time the prep was probably still shooting the kids. He didn't know those cops were there, that's when they should have entered and taken him out while he was distracted with his evil chit.

There should be CLEAR and PRECISE rules of engagement (ROE). Specifically, if you see an armed individual about to enter a public place and knowing there had been shots fired, the ROE should dictate to immediately neutralize.

The military uses ROE. Other agencies have Use of Force policies. The officer had very clear Use of Force guidance that placed the shoot/don’t shoot decision in his hands. None of that UOF guidance would dictate that a shot must be taken, only under what circumstances it may be taken. If you Google Department of Homeland Security Use of Force policy, you’ll get a link to it. It’s a short and easy read. Substantively it is largely indifferent from any other UOF policy I have read. You may be able to Google up the Uvalde UOF policy

Hey Jim, check the door

Fuqk that, you check the door

No way, think we could get Doug to check the door?.........

You don't check it, if it opens you go in.

At that point do you believe any of them were doing a risk benefit analysis about losing more kid's lives....or officer safety?

They could have killed that guy in the first few minutes and more would have survived, but they couldn't control their fear and the kids died.

So maybe, maybe not. Not real confident in any conclusion.

I used ROE because that is what I know and use. I also work with DoD and their use of deadly force continuum applies to LEO (DoD civilian police). Bottom line is then, he didn't need to ask and should have taken the shot

Apparently they were worried that they might endanger more kids.....so....yeah.

You are making excuses to not go in that door.

Yes, if you go in and start shooting you might kill a kid. You probably won't. You sound like you could do pr for Uvalde police.

The Israelis do this on a routine basis unfortunately. And take the case of the raid on Entebbe airport where there were multiple armed bad guys and the only KIA was an idiot who stood up after IDF penetrated and failed to stay on the deck. But yes a single door is virtually a suicidal penetration by one or two guys..

My policy and procedure manual specifically stated that an officer would not be disciplined for declining to use deadly force in any situation. The implication being that you could or would possibly be disciplined for using deadly force. Cops are extremely gun shy over the possibility of ending up in jail themselves for taking the initiative. Chauvin up Minnesota is basically in jail for life for holding down a sick drug head that died from natural causes aggravated by illegal drugs. These cops deferred to the indecisive chief that was apparently a complete chic kens hit.

you are not paying attention.

Yet the officers who advanced through the doorway finally after 1 hour and 11 minutes didn’t get shot . SMH

He is. Everybody gets that there is great risk to not only yourself but also others.

Like shooting a grizzly off your buddy.
Sure, you might hit him, but chances are he’s bear schit if you don’t try.

You can discuss this forever. Only thing that matters is how police action enabled the shooter. Law enforcement enabled the shooter.

I think i am agreeing with Roger.

Someone going in to shoot the per is probably not going to shoot 34 others.

Maybe (or maybe not) because they finally got some sort of reliable info on where the shooter was or in what position?

Going in without knowing something about where the target or the hostages are could easily, dare I say likely, make the situation even worse.

Who knows and I don’t buy that all these videos being posted have as many of the facts that they claim to have.

Wanna hear something crazy?

Dads on this thread know cops are incapable of protecting their kids, know their schools are no safer than Uvalde, and in a few weeks they’ll drop them off at the front door anyway.

Because deep down they’re thinking the same thing those Uvalde teachers and cops did….”It’ll never happen here.”
____________

If it’s not really a threat, then don’t get mad when cops and teachers are unprepared for it.

If it is really a threat, then take some personal responsibility and stop sending your kids into harms way.

Yep, for sure.

Is it unreasonable for people to still send their kids to school, acknowledging that there is a degree of inherent risk in doing so…as there is to pretty much every single aspect of our lives nowadays…and at the same time expecting cops to actually do the job that they train for and get paid for doing (unlike what was seen at Uvalde)…?

I wouldn’t. I don’t expect anyone to ever care about me or my family as much as I do. And I expect everyone in the government to fail me at every opportunity.

I feel the same way.And I absolutely agree with that too.

Based on our short discourse today (including the acknowledgments by us both), do you honestly believe that the total expenditure by taxpayers for modern policing is worth it…? Do you believe that the cumulative results obtained justify the total expenditure by taxpayers…? Do you think there are changes that could be made…on either end of the spectrum…that would have a positive impact on the lives of all of the law abiding citizens in the country…?

Should taxpayers be equipping standard patrol cars and typical officers with AR’s and tactical vests and helmets and whatever other ‘tactical’ equipment, etc. if they can’t be expected to use it to actually do the job they were trained for and paid to do…?

Should taxpayers be doing the same for ‘tactical’ officers specifically and ‘tactical’ teams if they can’t be expected to use it to actually do the job they were trained for and paid to do…?

Have continually read/heard the messages about "more intense training", and "established routines and protocols", and "command responsibility", and "policies" and on and on. Dates all the way back to Columbine or even before.

I don't know if I would pass such tests, but always have deeply respected and supported the roles of LEOs, and admire those who commit such strategies to memory and use them properly. In reality though, much of the stuff here seems like exercise of insider knowledge applied as mental masturbation.

If a person does not have and live the commitment, does not possess and exercise the personal discipline required to address the emergency, and does not have the personal courage to do what is needed on behalf of those in danger - all of the blah, blah, blah training and systems, and routines, and protocols are worth little - especially to to those in need.

Strutting around with so much hardware on the belt and in pockets can look ludicrous. Don't take the job and put on that badge if you simply don't have what it takes to be best when needed.

I’d expect the situation to go a few ways. 1) the shooter starts dumping rounds at the breaching team. 2) the shooter starts dumping rounds into innocents as the team enters. 3) the shooter grabs a kid, or teacher as a shield. 4) the shooter does himself upon entry of the team.

My focus is on my sights and finding the shooter, then putting rounds on target. Nothing more! I cannot control the decisions the shooter makes as I’m coming into the room.

I wouldn’t mind some ‘distraction’ help from team members at the moment I’m about to enter the class room ~ whatever that might be.


🦫

Probably a lot safer waiting for the gunman to run out of ammo.

Finally.

Bingo, except for No 2, hes going to be focused on saving himself as cowards do and focused on the danger to him and shooting at you or dropping gun and raising hands i would think.

Its rare for one to die w/o committing suicide.

True.

The vast majority of small town schools are no different.

The vast majority of small town cops are no different.

When summer's over, and everything is boiled down, nothing much will have changed.

No to every question except “could beneficial changes be made”. Yes, they could. But no to every question but that one.

Thanks. And I agree with every single one of your answers to those questions.

That get’s a smidge sketchy when you have States that allow open carry of firearms, up to and including AR’s.

As an example, look at protests for 2A. I’ve seen several individuals carrying around a rifle, shotgun, or semi-auto out in public. Some individuals will carry openly during times of political discourse over 2A in areas where you’d never expect to see a carbine or long gun.

I know your sentiments and understand there could, should, maybe, be a different ‘situational awareness’ of a person walking into a grocery store, mall, movie theater, or name a public place. It’s just a judgment call someone can only make being there and observing.

🦫

There is simply no getting through life without risk.

If you truly want to minimize risk to your kids, you’d never put them in a car. Several thousand kids die each year in car accidents. Throw in bikes, skateboards, drownings……School shootings probably rank below dog attack when it comes to child fatalities.

Anyway, the OP is about what to do if you happen to walk into an active shooter event at a school before the police arrive.

Most folk seem to be of the same mind. Confront and attack the shooter as quickly as possible by any means possible.

Pretty sure there will be plenty of armed individuals at an active shooter situation including plainclothes officers.

Engaging everyone with a gun is going to get messy.

PD in Colorado killed a guy who had just stopped a cop killer because they just went to shooting anyone with a gun. Sad deal.

The mall shooting in IN is another example of good guy with a gun.

One question for you professionals: Why didn't they employ stun grenades to initially gain access and did the Border Patrol Team employ them?

He was not a medic, he was a regular deputy named Eric Gonzales.

https://nypost.com/2022/07/18/uvald...r-during-massacre-ided-as-eric-gonzales/

Tag for Burns

🦫

Might be a while.

He took last night pretty deep.

So does engaging no one with a gun.

About 86% of school shooters die in the event. Most shooters plan on this, it is their ultimate goal for the ending. Some intend on committing suicide and some want to shoot it out with LE until they are killed. About 46% end in suicide, about 40% are killed by responding LE and the remaining surrender or are captured by LE alive.

“As far as investigators know, Dicken "has no police training and no military training," Ison said. According to WTHR, Dicken's grandfather taught him how to shoot.”



https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/19/us/eli-dicken-indiana-mall-shooting-bystander/index.html


Well, ain’t that a bitch, lmao

The guy is simply a Chad. Uvalde cops, not so much.

Who the heck hacked CNN to write that story? I am shocked it read so favorably.

After the news blast came out that a armed civilian shot the mall shooter. I went to CNN’s online page to see how they would report it.

I found the same thing, that most news organizations were saying, ‘Good Samaritan with a legally carried firearm shot and killed the shooter’.

Maybe that new guy in charge at CNN is making some progress on stopping the lies and just reporting what actually happened.

I’ll give CNN through the mid-terms on how they report, before I’d say anything good about them.

🦫

Reading the story on fox, once the shooter realized he was getting shot at he tried retreating into a bathroom but tripped and fell over after being shot.