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Campfire Member
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Didn't go through all 20 pages of this thread, but...one of the biggest things overlooked IMHO is the hindsight of knowing there was only one shooter. Unidentified armed parents running around randomly in the middle of a situation like this, with the possibility there are two or more other shooters in the building...what could go wrong?
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506 |
I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. Good post, SLM! I took one of the posts who said he carried a ‘Jimmy Bronco’. I looked it up for giggles. Depending on the length of the bar, maybe it would work, but I’m not carrying anything in my hands but a pistol. Then I looked up a current school door design. No frick’n way would the average guy, alone, be able to open the door. Can we get some Sapper training next for breaching a door alone? 🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog
“Molon Labe”
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Joined: Dec 2007
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 25,116 Likes: 1 |
Didn't go through all 20 pages of this thread, but...one of the biggest things overlooked IMHO is the hindsight of knowing there was only one shooter. Unidentified armed parents running around randomly in the middle of a situation like this, with the possibility there are two or more other shooters in the building...what could go wrong? Lots. Still no excuse for sitting on your hands while kids are getting killed.
“Life is life and fun is fun, but it's all so quiet when the goldfish die.”
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Joined: Jan 2012
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Campfire Outfitter
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Joined: Jan 2012
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Great discussion. Informed opinions most likely all from people who always carry a serious firearm and train regularly...and know some serious pipehitters  . And thanks to those with useful real world experience who were willing to cast their pearls knowing how they would be received by the CF cognoscenti. mike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
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Didn't go through all 20 pages of this thread, but...one of the biggest things overlooked IMHO is the hindsight of knowing there was only one shooter. Unidentified armed parents running around randomly in the middle of a situation like this, with the possibility there are two or more other shooters in the building...what could go wrong? Lots. Still no excuse for sitting on your hands while kids are getting killed. I dont know if the cops made any noise in the hall to cause the perp to fire through the door. Whether he was very scared or very smart, it worked. The cops did flee to safety. I wounder if they considered that the kids had no place to flee to saftey. 
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 Likes: 1 |
I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. What happens in a fire?
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. What happens in a fire? ![[Linked Image from media.giphy.com]](https://media.giphy.com/media/3o7aTyXy0Xo6Kf1sRi/giphy.gif)
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2009
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“ There is no way to override the lock.” Like deflave eluded to, teachers do some stupid things for convenience that render the system useless. If everything is installed correctly, the mentioned bar will not get you through a modern school door. I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. Good post, SLM! I took one of the posts who said he carried a ‘Jimmy Bronco’. I looked it up for giggles. Depending on the length of the bar, maybe it would work, but I’m not carrying anything in my hands but a pistol. Then I looked up a current school door design. No frick’n way would the average guy, alone, be able to open the door. Can we get some Sapper training next for breaching a door alone? 🦫
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,929 Likes: 1 |
Laffin’. They are passive from inside the class room. If you are talking a rescue or search operation during a fire, every school I know of has multiple Knox boxes with master keys. If not, a K-12 makes pretty short work of a door if used properly. Modern sprinkler systems have greatly reduced fire threat. I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. What happens in a fire?
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Joined: Dec 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 13,139 Likes: 9 |
I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. Apparently this school did not have these sort of doors and locks? The crazy boy was able to get in. I have not read this whole 200+ post discussion but what is the big issue with the medic washing his hands? Did that do something to change the outcome?
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2011
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Laffin’. They are passive from inside the class room. If you are talking a rescue or search operation during a fire, every school I know of has multiple Knox boxes with master keys. If not, a K-12 makes pretty short work of a door if used properly. Modern sprinkler systems have greatly reduced fire threat. Is it feasible to hack through an interior wall? That was a breaching technique thirty years ago.
Me solum relinquatis
Molon Labe
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 18,929 Likes: 1 |
I’d hate to speculate not knowing anything about TX schools access control. In NM, with a properly utilized system, he could not have wandered into the school, much less a classroom. Like deflave alluded to though, the system is there, but teachers and staff have to use it as designed. I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. Apparently this school did not have these sort of doors and locks? The crazy boy was able to get in. I have not read this whole 200+ post discussion but what is the big issue with the medic washing his hands? Did that do something to change the outcome?
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,507 Likes: 2 |
…what is the big issue with the medic washing his hands? We are calling bullshít on THIS: Using hand sanitizer at that point and time is one of the best "tactics" shown on the entire sad video whether the guy was a doctor or hard core pipe hitter. That’s it. In a nutshell.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I know a guy that has an entry level job at a local elementary school. He just waves teachers through the gates and walks the grounds during the day.
He said five days after Robb Elementary he had to report three different doors being propped open. His report was met with eye rolls by all involved.
This is about 15 minutes from Parkland by the way.
School staff are some of the worst people walking the earth.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2009
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As a last resort yes, but there are much faster ways. Laffin’. They are passive from inside the class room. If you are talking a rescue or search operation during a fire, every school I know of has multiple Knox boxes with master keys. If not, a K-12 makes pretty short work of a door if used properly. Modern sprinkler systems have greatly reduced fire threat. Is it feasible to hack through an interior wall? That was a breaching technique thirty years ago.
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
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Is it feasible to hack through an interior wall? That was a breaching technique thirty years ago. Yes, and it's one of the things ALERRT brought up in their AAR. But just like he had already done, he'd just shoot you as soon as you started knocking a hole in the sheetrock and pulling out insulation. It would be a good distraction as someone else made entry, but you're not gonna solve the problem alone doing that.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Is it feasible to hack through an interior wall? That was a breaching technique thirty years ago. Yes, and it's one of the things ALERRT brought up in their AAR. But just like he had already done, he'd just shoot you as soon as you started knocking a hole in the sheetrock and pulling out insulation. It would be a good distraction as someone else made entry, but you're not gonna solve the problem alone doing that. What if I had a bazooka? Or a shape charge? Mr. Smarty Pants.
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
Building clearing is 1 of the most dangerous jobs a solider has. The military can use explosives to berach entry. Not a viable tact in a school shooting
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
Is it feasible to hack through an interior wall? That was a breaching technique thirty years ago. Yes, and it's one of the things ALERRT brought up in their AAR. But just like he had already done, he'd just shoot you as soon as you started knocking a hole in the sheetrock and pulling out insulation. It would be a good distraction as someone else made entry, but you're not gonna solve the problem alone doing that. What if I had a bazooka? Or a shape charge? Mr. Smarty Pants. Bazooka's are obsolete
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,301 Likes: 28 |
Laffin’. They are passive from inside the class room. If you are talking a rescue or search operation during a fire, every school I know of has multiple Knox boxes with master keys. If not, a K-12 makes pretty short work of a door if used properly. Modern sprinkler systems have greatly reduced fire threat. I have built quit a few schools, everyone I’ve built in the past 10+ years has “classroom hardware” which once the door is closed, is only accessible by key. There is no way to override the lock.
Also, every classroom has a closer. Until I have recently been informally involved in similar training, the thought never crossed my mind the complexities a closer would cause on tactically entering a room with a closer.
Without some training and right tools, the average guy is not “breaching” a modern school door.
Not directed at anyone and not sure if TX has the same “code black” in regards to school construction and access control. What happens in a fire? What is a K-12?
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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