Recently I've thought about buying a Tikka CTR in .308 as I no longer have a rifle in that caliber after selling my model 10 and already have a 6.5 Creed in a bravo. But it's got me thinking, with all the cartridges that are out now, does it really make sense to buy one new? The ballistics are worse than It's smaller caliber derivatives, it has more recoil, and any animal I would feel comfortable shooting with .308 I'd also shoot with a 6/6.5/7mm and .223 given a good projectile in it's effective range. The biggest points in it's favor that I can think of are 1. Ammo cost relative to the 6/6.5/7mms although those seem to be coming down a bit 2. Ammo ubiquity compared to 6/6.5/7mms 3. Potentially a good trainer as it drifts more in the wind, but I feel like the same thing could be done with .223 What am I missing? The point of this thread isn't to try and **** on .308, I just can't think of a reason I should get one even though I'm likely going to eventually.
Recently I've thought about buying a Tikka CTR in .308 as I no longer have a rifle in that caliber after selling my model 10 and already have a 6.5 Creed in a bravo. But it's got me thinking, with all the cartridges that are out now, does it really make sense to buy one new? The ballistics are worse than It's smaller caliber derivatives, it has more recoil, and any animal I would feel comfortable shooting with .308 I'd also shoot with a 6/6.5/7mm and .223 given a good projectile in it's effective range. The biggest points in it's favor that I can think of are 1. Ammo cost relative to the 6/6.5/7mms although those seem to be coming down a bit 2. Ammo ubiquity compared to 6/6.5/7mms 3. Potentially a good trainer as it drifts more in the wind, but I feel like the same thing could be done with .223 What am I missing? The point of this thread isn't to try and **** on .308, I just can't think of a reason I should get one even though I'm likely going to eventually.
We have a rifle sub-forum here that is a good place to discuss rifles.
I've never seen the utility in the .308 as a hunting cartridge. But I shoot 7mm, .300 WinMag, and .338 WinMag for North American game so a .308 does not offer any advantages.
But the Tikka CTR is a nice rifle so there is that.
Esox...yeah so does the 6.5 Creed. When I went to the range my son said the 308 had more recoil than the 6.5 but I guess is not that bad if you shoot say 20 rounds! In looking at Cabelas they have about equal number of boxes of 6.5 and 308 so there must be some that have this 308...
I have never owned nor seen a need for any rifle more powerful than the .308. That's for me, do understand. I did not hunt Kodiak bears nor Cape buffalo. The 100 fps or so it lags behind the .30-06 is meaningless in any practical hunting situation, and nobody sneers at the .30-06.
There was a time when a fella could get a 308 chambered in some cool rifles. Like the Savage 99, Winchester 100 and 88, BLR’s (good luck finding a new one).
Supposedly it’s advantage to begin with was good ballistics out of a short action rifle, but I myself ever thought that a little longer bolt stoke was a disadvantage. My first rifle was a .308, and I was fine , but while I was in the Army, my Dad started using it and fell in love with it. So when I returned home, I bought myself an ought six and the .308 became Dad’s. Anyway, Since it’s adoption as a military cartridge, it’s success was assured. Were I hunting deer sized game or Black Bear, I wouldn’t feel undergunned with a .308, but if I was after Elk or Grizzly, I’d want something a with little more oomph. But then, killing power isn’t as important as placement, so a good shot with a oh8 is still way better than a bad shot with a .300 Winny. All things considered, the .308 is a fine cartridge. 7mm
Who gives a cshit about need, what you want is the important thing. I bought a Savage Hog Hunter for a suppressor rifle, but was impressed with how well it shot with 150 gr GameKings. My boy and I started using that rifle in the piney woods of East Texas. Along about that same time I bought my first 99 from Roy, damn if that rifle doesn’t shoot very well also. My boy uses it exclusively now. The 308 performs above its weight class in my opinion. If I had to get down to one, I could live with a 308. We have 4 now, all shoot that load great.
Esox...yeah so does the 6.5 Creed. When I went to the range my son said the 308 had more recoil than the 6.5 but I guess is not that bad if you shoot say 20 rounds! In looking at Cabelas they have about equal number of boxes of 6.5 and 308 so there must be some that have this 308...
My personal but limited results on game with 6.5 CM using Hornady 143 Eld X were less than impressive! Target shooting, I would agree with you that the 6.5 is better. On game I will take the 308 win everytime!
Recently I've thought about buying a Tikka CTR in .308 as I no longer have a rifle in that caliber after selling my model 10 and already have a 6.5 Creed in a bravo. But it's got me thinking, with all the cartridges that are out now, does it really make sense to buy one new? The ballistics are worse than It's smaller caliber derivatives, it has more recoil, and any animal I would feel comfortable shooting with .308 I'd also shoot with a 6/6.5/7mm and .223 given a good projectile in it's effective range. The biggest points in it's favor that I can think of are 1. Ammo cost relative to the 6/6.5/7mms although those seem to be coming down a bit 2. Ammo ubiquity compared to 6/6.5/7mms 3. Potentially a good trainer as it drifts more in the wind, but I feel like the same thing could be done with .223 What am I missing? The point of this thread isn't to try and **** on .308, I just can't think of a reason I should get one even though I'm likely going to eventually.
We have a rifle sub-forum here that is a good place to discuss rifles.
The .308 is a very good basic caliber... and everybody should own one or more IMHO
Ignore Paul... he is our resident homosexual... and to the best of my knowledge has never touched a firearm.
Had a 77 mk2 stainless boat paddle w Trijicon amber triangle 3-9X........in .308win. Reticle kind a neat, but lenses........meh. Kinda of the way I "viewed" the whole setup. It was handy, and boring.
Looking back, I proly shoulda kept it........a Stanley claw hammer kinda tool. Not even Estwing.
I loaded the .308 all the way from a rat load to an elk combo. The rat load, btw is a single lubed 0 buckshot over 3.0 Bullseye. Shoots like a .22 Short. A great load for teaching kids or fun is a 100-gr half-jacket Plinker over 8.0 Unique. A classic cast bullet load is a 150 or 170 over 13.0 RedDot. Varmint load? the 125 Ballistic Tip, baby. My go-to deer load was always the plain-Jane Hornady 150 paired with any of almost a dozen powders for 2700-2800 fps. I loaded up comparatively few elk loads, but it's hard to beat a premium 165 like the Nosler Partition. If range isn't an issue, a 180 works well, too. With that weight, the .308 starts to be less effective because it just can't churn up enough velocity.
Cartridge availability, accuracy, size, moderate recoil, a great medium game cartridge. I have a Remington Tactical that I hunt Coyotes with, a great compact rifle. (heavy) . Great fordeer and OK for elk.
Even in tough times components seem to be available. Depending on your need it's easy to throttle up or down. Works in any rifle action. It may not be glamorous, but it's a good ol' workhorse.
To me, 308 Win is the most versatile of its family. Or at least tied with 7mm-08. It offers basically 30-06 performance, although starts to fall behind with 200 & 220 grain bullets. It's efficient enough that a carbine length barrel is fine, and combined with a shorter action provides a nice weight savings. They tend to be more accurate, compared to 30-06. Ammo is everywhere, and reasonable.
For longer range, 260 or 7mm-08 should be preferred for their range, assuming they are appropriate to your game. For short range/heavy game 338 Fed or 358 Winchester are good cartridges. I really like 358 Win (it is NOT Just a "brush gun") but a 308 will do just about anything that it will, with less recoil too.
308 Winchester with a good bullet probably sits right in the middle of the versatility zone. And it will probably get disrespected by some simply because it's old & doesn't get press anymore. No sizzle. Same as the 30-06, which may still be the best single cartridge around.
308 winchester is a cartridge and measures .308 caliber.
Saying 308 caliber could mean any .308 diameter offering 30-06/300 win mag/300 savage/etc..
But don't let misusing the 308 caliber wording stop you from saying it. AND drive 5mph under the speed limit in the left hand lane on highways and interstates, nothing wrong with that. If someone tailgating you says more over can't you read the sign that says 'keep right except to pass?',, hollar what's the difference? Take another swig of pepsi and keep-on truck'n
Over the past 49 years I have collected or built over a dozen 308 rifles that I still have.
I have never got a 1" (5) shot group with a 308. I have never killed an animal with a 308.
Still I chambered the pictured 1903 Turk Mauser with Hart barrel in January 2022.
If I shoot a deer in October it will likely be with some rifles I chambered this year in better cartridges, like 260 or 300WinMag.
Why are there so many rifles in this 308 crap cartridge? What else can we do with a 30 cal barrel and a short action?
You have a dozen 308s some built, and never shot a 1" group?
Help me understand this. Have you shot them at all?
Are you saying 1.000'
Never under, or over?
Either way, I find it hard to believe that one would properly barrel 12 guns and not have one shoot under an inch? Or, with at least one load, one time, go over an inch.
Lotta easy, personal, snarky, comments would be easy. This ain't ball busting, just trying to make sense of the post.
Over the past 49 years I have collected or built over a dozen 308 rifles that I still have.
I have never got a 1" (5) shot group with a 308. I have never killed an animal with a 308.
Still I chambered the pictured 1903 Turk Mauser with Hart barrel in January 2022.
If I shoot a deer in October it will likely be with some rifles I chambered this year in better cartridges, like 260 or 300WinMag.
Why are there so many rifles in this 308 crap cartridge? What else can we do with a 30 cal barrel and a short action?
You have a dozen 308s some built, and never shot a 1" group?
Help me understand this. Have you shot them at all?
Are you saying 1.000'
Never under, or over?
Either way, I find it hard to believe that one would properly barrel 12 guns and not have one shoot under an inch? Or, with at least one load, one time, go over an inch.
Lotta easy, personal, snarky, comments would be easy. This ain't ball busting, just trying to make sense of the post.
Accurate, short action rifles, plenty of energy, plethora of .308" bullets to choose from, surplus brass at reasonable prices.
A .308 will do it all,...especially if you handload,..groundhogs to Grizzly.
42.5 grains of H4895 and 150 grain bullets. A scoped FAL loaded with that will keep the gong at 300 yards swinging all day long,...20 rounds on target in less than a minute.
Dunno if my treestand rated to hold both me and that rifle LOL
THAT is funny...
Lucked into 10 boxes of the PMC 150gr deer stuff way back. Rifle shoots it decent. Under 100 and Id run it, due to front sight. Change that and maybe go further. May try a new dust cover and add reflex.
Its comfy even w STG58 stock (prefer over humpback). STG58 handguards suck though. Plastic reg is more comfy.
Its a FrankenFAL and we drag it to the range to blast when WW ball ammo is found reasonable. Heavy to be comfy for any shooter off a bag.
Ive not shot any deer w a .30 cal. Its soooooooo hard to not just grab the 760 in .35 rem. Light, fast, comfy, no blast just a boom. Under 150 yards.........my supposed other "deer rifles" just sit in the safe. Maybe if I hunted some other ground.
Sis sent me the CO regs, so may look at applying for a tag of some sort out there. Im thinkin Mule Deer and a #1 B in .25-06 would be a good combo.
That is a good question. Many will suggest that the .308 Winchester is a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of a cartridge. At first glance, you may agree with that. After all, the .30-06 has more potential velocity if you break away from factory-loaded ammunition, but you're going to be forced into a long action. For hunting, why stop at the '06 when you can go straight to the .300 Winchester? If you're going short-action, the 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor offer less recoil and slightly higher ballistic coefficient bullets that provide for somewhat better trajectory. There is even the .260 Remington for the Creedmoor haters that potentially out-performs either of the other darlings if you want to be individualistic and perhaps a few more FPS of bragging rights. So why would anybody want a .308 Winchester?
Those claiming the .308 Winchester to be anemic must also claim the .300 Winchester is anemic. Let me explain. In a density altitude of 1050, a 175 gr from a .308 Winchester fired at 2670 fps will have 3 mRad or 63.78" of drop at 575 yards. In the wind, the same load would drift 1.4 mRad or 32.8" in a 10mph wind at full-value. Remaining energy is around 1260 FPE with a remaining velocity of 1800 fps. This is the expansion floor for most bullets. What pathetic performance, right?
Let us compare to the mighty .300 Winchester with a similar bullet. We can expect the same 175 gr bullet to reach around 2960; ~300 fps faster in the .300 Winchester. To reach the same drop values and remaining velocity we can extend our range to a whopping 675 yards in the same density altitude to achieve the same numbers. That's it, a .300 Winchester gets you 100 yards!
Or think of it this way, an animal hit with a .300 Winchester at 675 yards is the same as hitting the same animal with a .308 at 575 yards. According to polling on this very forum, most hunters won't shoot past 300 yards or so on game. How could the .308 Winchester be ineffective and anemic if it will maintain the velocity floor faster than the average hunter is willing to take the shot anyway? Few would argue the .300 Winchester as being "anemic' at 675 yards so the .308 Winchester is absolutely fine under 575.
So why not choose a 6.5 Creedmoor? Surely the .308 couldn't get close. To be honest, my Tikka CTR 20" could never achieve the advertised Creedmoor velocities. Others suggest 2740 fps is common with their rifles and a 140 gr bullet. My Tikka would get a mere 2550 fps with the Hornady 143 gr ELD-X factory ammo, but we'll go with the popular number. The 6.5 Creedmoor will maintain the 1800 fps velocity floor in the same atmosphere quoted above to approximately 710 yards, but has a lower energy of 1070 FPE. If we go equal energy to the .308 with the 175 class bullet, energy equalizes with the .308 Winchester at around the same 575 yards, though the Creedmoor will drift 1.07 mils and around an impressive 23" of wind drift.
So we must conclude that the .308 Winchester is more than an adequate cartridge for big game hunting North America to the distances most on this website would be willing to take a shot. That, however, doesn't answer the question, "where does the .308 Winchester EXCEL?" Sure, we can comment on the wide range of available bullet weights, great variety of adequate powders, quality brass availability, and one of the largest varieties of factory loaded ammo at a reasonable price, but those arguments have been beat to death and the same advantages exist for .30-06 and daresay the 6.5 Creedmoor these days. But where does the .308 REALLY excel?
As previously mentioned, my short little 20" 6.5 Creedmoor actually could not match my .308 Winchester's velocity in the same length gun. In fact, my 2o" .308 actually out-performed the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor in REAL WORLD shooting...and running the numbers, the .308 won on the ballistic calculator out past 700 yards! We're told this is impossible. In fact, I had to get to a 22" Creedmoor to match the 20" .308 Winchester and over 24" to get to the velocity most claim from the 6.5 Creedmoor--which is fine, and likely the length of test-barrels for Hornady's data. But that brings to light exactly where the .308 Winchester excels; under 22" barrels. With any of the other cartridges, you're really handicapping them going below 22".
Additionally, having several of the "hot" rounds including 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5 PRC, .270 Winchester, and several others, none of them have exhibited excellent barrel-life. My 6.5-284 was dead in as little as 900 rounds. A couple of .260 Remington barrels died between 1700 and 2000 rounds. I have a .270 on its last leg with an estimated 2000 rounds on it. 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have run around 2500 before giving up the ghost. 6.5x47 Lapua seems to be the only round that has made it beyond 3,000 rounds for me...with one exception: the .308 Winchester. Currently in my battery is a .308 with over 5,000 rounds on it. My previous .308 barrel approached 8,000 rounds. One high-end .308 semi-auto of mine has a "guarantee" of sub-MOA performance for 10,000 or a free barrel replacement! Yes, the .308 Winchester excels at barrel-life like no other cartridge capable of being a solid 400 yard big game cartridge! If you want a rifle you can use, practice, and master at the range and still take it out to kill game with, there is absolutely no equal to the .308 Winchester.
Over the past 49 years I have collected or built over a dozen 308 rifles that I still have.
I have never got a 1" (5) shot group with a 308. I have never killed an animal with a 308.
Still I chambered the pictured 1903 Turk Mauser with Hart barrel in January 2022.
If I shoot a deer in October it will likely be with some rifles I chambered this year in better cartridges, like 260 or 300WinMag.
Why are there so many rifles in this 308 crap cartridge? What else can we do with a 30 cal barrel and a short action?
You have a dozen 308s some built, and never shot a 1" group?
Help me understand this. Have you shot them at all?
Are you saying 1.000'
Never under, or over?
Either way, I find it hard to believe that one would properly barrel 12 guns and not have one shoot under an inch? Or, with at least one load, one time, go over an inch.
Lotta easy, personal, snarky, comments would be easy. This ain't ball busting, just trying to make sense of the post.
We had an aft weapons locker on my aircraft for self defense in case we got bagged surviving the crash...a single M16 and three M14's need I say more..
Shoots commonly available bullets at useful hunting velocity, easy to develop accurate loads, able to fit in shorter and lighter rifles, not a lot of recoil, commonly available factory ammo in a bunch of different loads to include match ammo….
So, to me, it excels at eliminating a bunch of considerations. It excels at being easy.
Like many cartridges, the .308 is a very capable round. Like many cartridges, it has its devotees who feel that it is superior to all others. As far as "excels" it probably does so in as many specific places and points in time as any of them.
As long as milsurp brass is still available by the millions, it's a good parent cartridge for launching any bullet from .22 to .358. Sort of like the .30-06 once was.
In 1965 I was 14, and hunting friend of my father was a gov inspector. He brought home a Colt belt fed 308 and I got to shoot it Every 5th round was a tracer.
There was a time when a fella could get a 308 chambered in some cool rifles. Like the Savage 99, Winchester 100 and 88, BLR’s (good luck finding a new one).
I used a borrowed 99 in 308 for my very first deer hunt when I was a teen in the 70's.
I have never owned nor seen a need for any rifle more powerful than the .308. That's for me, do understand. I did not hunt Kodiak bears nor Cape buffalo. The 100 fps or so it lags behind the .30-06 is meaningless in any practical hunting situation, and nobody sneers at the .30-06.
What makes you think the 30-06 is 100 FPS faster than the .308? Advertised figure say so but in real life, is that true. Granted, the test I did was with one brand of ammo and both cartridges were loaded with the 180 gr. Power Point bullet. Brand was Winchester.
I ran 20 rounds each of that ammo and compared velocity from my chronograph. Rifles were a Winchester M70 Youth Ranger restocked in a Ramline to fit me and a J.C. Higgins M50 FN Mauser. Both rifles have 22" barrels. Long story shore the .308 was 20 FPS faster than the 30-06. I also ran a test with the 30-06 using rifles with 24" and 26" Barrels. The only time I came close to advertised factory levels was in the 26" barreled Ruger #1B. Makes me think that Winchester may have downloaded the pressure level for the 30-06 a bit. Note that 2300 FPS is exactly 100 FPS slower than advertised 220 bullet loads for the 30-06. Never could find any 220 gr. factory ammo for sale here in town but it would be interesting to run a few just to see exactly what velocity they actually give.
In a test running the 220 gr. Sierra round nose bullet using W760. velocity was 2310 FPS and groups were in the tiny range, like .375". That from the M70 youth Ranger with 1 in 12" twist. Based on the data I have from a One Book/One load for the .308, it appears I can probably kick that velocity up by at least 100 to maybe 150 FPS faster.
My experiments showed the 22mag slower than the 22LR in my NAA mini revolvers with the same barrel length. I complained, and I assume others did too. NAA gave the 22mag a longer barrel.
Recently I've thought about buying a Tikka CTR in .308 as I no longer have a rifle in that caliber after selling my model 10 and already have a 6.5 Creed in a bravo. But it's got me thinking, with all the cartridges that are out now, does it really make sense to buy one new? The ballistics are worse than It's smaller caliber derivatives, it has more recoil, and any animal I would feel comfortable shooting with .308 I'd also shoot with a 6/6.5/7mm and .223 given a good projectile in it's effective range. The biggest points in it's favor that I can think of are 1. Ammo cost relative to the 6/6.5/7mms although those seem to be coming down a bit 2. Ammo ubiquity compared to 6/6.5/7mms 3. Potentially a good trainer as it drifts more in the wind, but I feel like the same thing could be done with .223 What am I missing? The point of this thread isn't to try and **** on .308, I just can't think of a reason I should get one even though I'm likely going to eventually.
The arguments you construct against the .308 could reasonable be levied against almost any other cartridge you choose when compared to the field of all cartridges.
What I am saying is pick your favorite and start to construct arguments against it relative to all other cartridges. You can construct valid arguments for and against all cartridges.
That being said, the .308 is nearly universally acknowledged as one of the most balanced and useful cartridges out there. If it doesn't do anything for you personally, I wouldn’t buy one, but it does most things very well.
Shot it a lot in NRA high power matches. M1A and bolt rifles. Easy access to components and lots of historical data on loads that worked along with great barrel life.
I went to smaller diameter (6.5) with the same case because I had so many on hand. A Little less recoil and a little less drift.
Scores won't much better but I think at the same time I won't shooting as well either.
I've never been a big fan of the 308, but I do have 3 of them. They are easy to reload for, easy to find ammo for, and will handle any thing I will ever need to shoot.
The 308 was designed to directly replace the 30-06. The 308 took over the job, admirably, the 30-06 had been doing for fifty years.
I prefer the 06, because I can and have made it do far more than the factories in the '50s ever made it do. Like a 190 at 2800 fps.
To say the 308 is equivalent to the 1906-1960 30-06 is not faint praise. The cartridge is capable today of everything it was ever capable of. Long range accuracy. Energy on target. Moderate recoil.
All that said. Were I to build a 30 cal rifle today, It would probably be a 30 WSM on a long action. Possible a 300 PRC.
But that is only because I like to experiment with new, to me, stuff. And absolutely never buy factory ammo.
If you've built and shot a number of 308 rifles and never gone 1" or less for five shots, assuming 100 yards to the target, well, don't put the blame on the cartridge.
The 308 does what it was intended to do, nothing more, nothing less.
But as a hunting round, today, there are rounds above it & below it that make the 308 a moot point.
But if that's all you have it will do just fine.
As for a military round in 7.62 for use in various types of automatic or semi-automatic weapons, it still excels IMO, as it deliveries much more on target destruction that smaller rounds do.
Don't own any now & only ever had one as it just doesn't do what other rounds, IMO, do similar things better.
Where does the .308 excel? Perhaps a better question would be where doesn't it excel? Just about every application I can think of......Hunting rifles, tactical rifles, benchrest rifles, military sniper roles, etc the .308 has been at or near the top of the heap at one point or another.
No matter how many different cartridges I've played with, I keep coming back to the .308 as it just makes so much sense. This little 700 weighs 7# with a 3-9 Zeiss conquest, stacks 150g Hornadys into neat little groups, is a dream to carry, ample horsepower for anything Im likely to hunt and does it all with mild recoil. I imagine this one will be with me until the end.
I've never seen the utility in the .308 as a hunting cartridge. But I shoot 7mm, .300 WinMag, and .338 WinMag for North American game so a .308 does not offer any advantages.
But the Tikka CTR is a nice rifle so there is that.
The majority of people can't use their rifles to the full potential.
It's like cars, if you never drive faster than 55 mph, why get the fastest car you can? You don't gonna use that advantage anyway. I love my 308. Killed a handful of elk with it, many deer and antelope too. It does just fine out to 500 yards and if I wanna shoot farther I'll use a fancier flatter shooting rifle. I guarantee my 308 is cheaper to shoot than the majority of deer rifles out there as well.
To me at 308 does 90 plus percent of what a 30- 06 does with much less recoil.
Depends on the felt recoil of the rifle.
I never was much of a .308 fan because I had a Savage 99 in 308 that would kick the snot out of you. It was brutal due to stock design. Not too bad for a shot or two afeild, but you didn't want to sit down at the bench and shoot a box of shells through it.
Fast forward to me getting an AR10 in .308... Not bad recoil at all. It was quite the boomer though, so I added sound mitigation equipment to it. Tamed the noise right down.
To me at 308 does 90 plus percent of what a 30- 06 does with much less recoil.
Depends on the felt recoil of the rifle.
I never was much of a .308 fan because I had a Savage 99 in 308 that would kick the snot out of you. It was brutal due to stock design. Not too bad for a shot or two afeild, but you didn't want to sit down at the bench and shoot a box of shells through it.
Fast forward to me getting an AR10 in .308... Not bad recoil at all. It was quite the boomer though, so I added sound mitigation equipment to it. Tamed the noise right down.
Can't disagree with that I guess I should have added with stocks of same design..
To me at 308 does 90 plus percent of what a 30- 06 does with much less recoil.
Depends on the felt recoil of the rifle.
I never was much of a .308 fan because I had a Savage 99 in 308 that would kick the snot out of you. It was brutal due to stock design. Not too bad for a shot or two afeild, but you didn't want to sit down at the bench and shoot a box of shells through it.
Fast forward to me getting an AR10 in .308... Not bad recoil at all. It was quite the boomer though, so I added sound mitigation equipment to it. Tamed the noise right down.
I've only ever owned one 99 and it's a .243.
I consider .243 to be a very appropriate chambering for a 99. The 250-3000 got the 99 a lot of attention and the .243 is in the same category. Once upon a time I wanted a 99 in .358 until I shot one that belonged to a friend. I'd guess that it would be a good hunting tool. But it wasn't a good range toy. It'd blur your vision shooting it off the bench.
To me at 308 does 90 plus percent of what a 30- 06 does with much less recoil.
Depends on the felt recoil of the rifle.
I never was much of a .308 fan because I had a Savage 99 in 308 that would kick the snot out of you. It was brutal due to stock design. Not too bad for a shot or two afeild, but you didn't want to sit down at the bench and shoot a box of shells through it.
Fast forward to me getting an AR10 in .308... Not bad recoil at all. It was quite the boomer though, so I added sound mitigation equipment to it. Tamed the noise right down.
I've only ever owned one 99 and it's a .243.
I consider .243 to be a very appropriate chambering for a 99. The 250-3000 got the 99 a lot of attention and the .243 is in the same category. Once upon a time I wanted a 99 in .358 until I shot one that belonged to a friend. I'd guess that it would be a good hunting tool. But it wasn't a good range toy. It'd blur your vision shooting it off the bench.
I have my grandad's Sav99 in .243. Not really a kicker at all. I killed many deer with that rifle as a kid. Sure glad to have it!
I heard that the boat paddle 77s in .308 were brutal w the factory " pad ". With 150s I thought it no big deal and im not in the best of shape neck and shoulder wise.
I heard that the boat paddle 77s in .308 were brutal w the factory " pad ". With 150s I thought it no big deal and im not in the best of shape neck and shoulder wise.
Bench w a T shirt.
I have an old lightweight 77 in .308 with the wood stock...with factory recoil "pad", it was a bit rough but not intolerable.
I heard that the boat paddle 77s in .308 were brutal w the factory " pad ". With 150s I thought it no big deal and im not in the best of shape neck and shoulder wise.
Bench w a T shirt.
I have a boat paddle in 300WM that's a barrel of fun from the bench lol.
Recently I've thought about buying a Tikka CTR in .308 as I no longer have a rifle in that caliber after selling my model 10 and already have a 6.5 Creed in a bravo. But it's got me thinking, with all the cartridges that are out now, does it really make sense to buy one new? The ballistics are worse than It's smaller caliber derivatives, it has more recoil, and any animal I would feel comfortable shooting with .308 I'd also shoot with a 6/6.5/7mm and .223 given a good projectile in it's effective range. The biggest points in it's favor that I can think of are 1. Ammo cost relative to the 6/6.5/7mms although those seem to be coming down a bit 2. Ammo ubiquity compared to 6/6.5/7mms 3. Potentially a good trainer as it drifts more in the wind, but I feel like the same thing could be done with .223 What am I missing? The point of this thread isn't to try and **** on .308, I just can't think of a reason I should get one even though I'm likely going to eventually.
Does it make sense to buy a new rifle in .308 Win at the moment? I think it does if that is the best chambering for your uses in a firearm you want/need.
All five of the rifles I have owned in .308 were obtained in .308 for that reason. A Savage 99E (traded off to buy my first .30-06 M77Ruger), a model 88 Winchester (originally my dads-now my youngest grandsons), two Ruger GSR's, a blued 16.5" synthetic (a friend wanted it badly and bought it off me) an SS 18.7" laminated-now synthetic and a match barreled M1A I bought three months ago.
I bought the first GSR after I gave away dad's M88. I like having a carbine in that chambering and the GSR really works well as a utility rifle. Good for whatever up to elk. Out to 250 yards or so it has adequate power in my experience even in the short barrels.
The cartridge is common. It is generally less expensive than more flat shooting cartridges. I generally find it easy to load for if you don't chase velocity. Compared to my '06s ammo is lighter. Both of my current .308's are set up to use a suppressor. Ammunition for suppressed use is available. Several rifles in the chambering are lighter than those in a long action (if a few ounces is a biggy). As to recoil and perceived recoil, the 99E kicked as much as any .30-06 I ever owned including my Montana.
What a .308 Win isn't : It isn't a .30-06. The famous "factory load comparisons" aside, my three chronogrphs have always shown the .30-06 to be about 150 fps faster, especially with bullets 165 grain and higher. I have found it sufficient for the tasks I used it for originally and still do.
For many years I used a 7mm Rem Mag for nearly everything in the USA. Then my wife got me a 308 for Christmas. I haven't shot the 7mm since. The 308 kills well, is accurate, not much recoil, and does what I need a rifle to do. It may not be as flashy as some rounds and it doesn't get the hype of the Creed but in the field it works. Period. Last year I fired 4 rounds during the hunting season and those 4 rounds took a black bear, a whitetail doe, a wild hog and a big bobcat.
And I also shot a lot of 308 in the military but they called it the 7.62x51. Shot it in the M-14, the MK-44 Mini-Gun and the MK-48 when I was with Riverine Squadron One. There is a dead Iraqi along the banks the Euphrates that can attest to the lethality of a 308 round fired by this Navy Chief.
When I was a kid I was obsessed with learning everything I could about guns, hunting, fishing, botany, zoology…basically anything that related to the outdoors (history too) I was reading. My dad was a city boy that had no interest in anything outdoor related but my dad recognized my love for it and tried to nourish my hunger for the outdoors.
I read the ballistics tables and had them committed to memory by the age of 10. Thinking back I laugh at a little kid talking about velocity, bullet weight, impact velocities, etc. 😂. My first centerfire rifle was a Remington 788 in 30-30. I liked the idea of an unusual chambering, although extremely common, for a bolt action rifle. I really was intrigued by the more exotic offerings and found the 30-06 extremely boring, excellent but boring. After making my way through dozens and dozens of different chamberings I kinda came full circle with boring and have settled on the .308 for my all around rifle. It’s a lightweight Sako and while it’s terribly boring, like Catholic nun in the missionary position boring, it works great.
Because of the accuracy, mild recoil and the ability of the .308 to punch well above its weight I decided to “standardize” our main rifles around the .308 case and have added a couple .243’s and I’m seriously considering a .338 Federal…I have 4 or 500 of the 185 bonded bullets that were CHEAP And I need a suitable platform for them, they are too light for my .338wm but perfect for the 33-308. 😉
When I was a kid I was obsessed with learning everything I could about guns, hunting, fishing, botany, zoology…basically anything that related to the outdoors (history too) I was reading. My dad was a city boy that had no interest in anything outdoor related but my dad recognized my love for it and tried to nourish my hunger for the outdoors.
I read the ballistics tables and had them committed to memory by the age of 10. Thinking back I laugh at a little kid talking about velocity, bullet weight, impact velocities, etc. 😂. My first centerfire rifle was a Remington 788 in 30-30. I liked the idea of an unusual chambering, although extremely common, for a bolt action rifle. I really was intrigued by the more exotic offerings and found the 30-06 extremely boring, excellent but boring. After making my way through dozens and dozens of different chamberings I kinda came full circle with boring and have settled on the .308 for my all around rifle. It’s a lightweight Sako and while it’s terribly boring, like Catholic nun in the missionary position boring, it works great.
Because of the accuracy, mild recoil and the ability of the .308 to punch well above its weight I decided to “standardize” our main rifles around the .308 case and have added a couple .243’s and I’m seriously considering a .338 Federal…I have 4 or 500 of the 185 bonded bullets that were CHEAP And I need a suitable platform for them, they are too light for my .338wm but perfect for the 33-308. 😉
I was practically the same kid. To the extent that I had hero’s it wasn’t NFL players it was gun and hunting authors. I had trajectory and ballistic tables memorized by 12.
My favorite author was Ross Seyfried back in the 80’s when Gun’s and Ammo was loaded with great gun writers rather that canned articles such as “.45 ACP Vs 9mm which is right for you” and other stupid [bleep].
Seyfried admitted later on that the 30/06 was a great cartridge but downplayed it as being boring and underpowered or at least that’s how I perceived it. I wasn’t a big 30/06 or .308 Win fan until later in life.
Theoretically the .308 Win shoots a fat bullet at lower velocity but bottom line, it works across a broad spectrum, is an accurate and efficient cartridge that’s easy to like. I’m become a fan as I’ve gotten older.
That is a good question. Many will suggest that the .308 Winchester is a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of a cartridge. At first glance, you may agree with that. After all, the .30-06 has more potential velocity if you break away from factory-loaded ammunition, but you're going to be forced into a long action. For hunting, why stop at the '06 when you can go straight to the .300 Winchester? If you're going short-action, the 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor offer less recoil and slightly higher ballistic coefficient bullets that provide for somewhat better trajectory. There is even the .260 Remington for the Creedmoor haters that potentially out-performs either of the other darlings if you want to be individualistic and perhaps a few more FPS of bragging rights. So why would anybody want a .308 Winchester?
Those claiming the .308 Winchester to be anemic must also claim the .300 Winchester is anemic. Let me explain. In a density altitude of 1050, a 175 gr from a .308 Winchester fired at 2670 fps will have 3 mRad or 63.78" of drop at 575 yards. In the wind, the same load would drift 1.4 mRad or 32.8" in a 10mph wind at full-value. Remaining energy is around 1260 FPE with a remaining velocity of 1800 fps. This is the expansion floor for most bullets. What pathetic performance, right?
Let us compare to the mighty .300 Winchester with a similar bullet. We can expect the same 175 gr bullet to reach around 2960; ~300 fps faster in the .300 Winchester. To reach the same drop values and remaining velocity we can extend our range to a whopping 675 yards in the same density altitude to achieve the same numbers. That's it, a .300 Winchester gets you 100 yards!
Or think of it this way, an animal hit with a .300 Winchester at 675 yards is the same as hitting the same animal with a .308 at 575 yards. According to polling on this very forum, most hunters won't shoot past 300 yards or so on game. How could the .308 Winchester be ineffective and anemic if it will maintain the velocity floor faster than the average hunter is willing to take the shot anyway? Few would argue the .300 Winchester as being "anemic' at 675 yards so the .308 Winchester is absolutely fine under 575.
So why not choose a 6.5 Creedmoor? Surely the .308 couldn't get close. To be honest, my Tikka CTR 20" could never achieve the advertised Creedmoor velocities. Others suggest 2740 fps is common with their rifles and a 140 gr bullet. My Tikka would get a mere 2550 fps with the Hornady 143 gr ELD-X factory ammo, but we'll go with the popular number. The 6.5 Creedmoor will maintain the 1800 fps velocity floor in the same atmosphere quoted above to approximately 710 yards, but has a lower energy of 1070 FPE. If we go equal energy to the .308 with the 175 class bullet, energy equalizes with the .308 Winchester at around the same 575 yards, though the Creedmoor will drift 1.07 mils and around an impressive 23" of wind drift.
So we must conclude that the .308 Winchester is more than an adequate cartridge for big game hunting North America to the distances most on this website would be willing to take a shot. That, however, doesn't answer the question, "where does the .308 Winchester EXCEL?" Sure, we can comment on the wide range of available bullet weights, great variety of adequate powders, quality brass availability, and one of the largest varieties of factory loaded ammo at a reasonable price, but those arguments have been beat to death and the same advantages exist for .30-06 and daresay the 6.5 Creedmoor these days. But where does the .308 REALLY excel?
As previously mentioned, my short little 20" 6.5 Creedmoor actually could not match my .308 Winchester's velocity in the same length gun. In fact, my 2o" .308 actually out-performed the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor in REAL WORLD shooting...and running the numbers, the .308 won on the ballistic calculator out past 700 yards! We're told this is impossible. In fact, I had to get to a 22" Creedmoor to match the 20" .308 Winchester and over 24" to get to the velocity most claim from the 6.5 Creedmoor--which is fine, and likely the length of test-barrels for Hornady's data. But that brings to light exactly where the .308 Winchester excels; under 22" barrels. With any of the other cartridges, you're really handicapping them going below 22".
Additionally, having several of the "hot" rounds including 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5 PRC, .270 Winchester, and several others, none of them have exhibited excellent barrel-life. My 6.5-284 was dead in as little as 900 rounds. A couple of .260 Remington barrels died between 1700 and 2000 rounds. I have a .270 on its last leg with an estimated 2000 rounds on it. 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have run around 2500 before giving up the ghost. 6.5x47 Lapua seems to be the only round that has made it beyond 3,000 rounds for me...with one exception: the .308 Winchester. Currently in my battery is a .308 with over 5,000 rounds on it. My previous .308 barrel approached 8,000 rounds. One high-end .308 semi-auto of mine has a "guarantee" of sub-MOA performance for 10,000 or a free barrel replacement! Yes, the .308 Winchester excels at barrel-life like no other cartridge capable of being a solid 400 yard big game cartridge! If you want a rifle you can use, practice, and master at the range and still take it out to kill game with, there is absolutely no equal to the .308 Winchester.
This ^^^
I have a CTR in a Bravo in 6.5 Creed. I wanted to try the cartridge. I like it, and like the rifle even more. Once the barrel is shot out it'll probably become a .308 Winchester.
That is a good question. Many will suggest that the .308 Winchester is a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of a cartridge. At first glance, you may agree with that. After all, the .30-06 has more potential velocity if you break away from factory-loaded ammunition, but you're going to be forced into a long action. For hunting, why stop at the '06 when you can go straight to the .300 Winchester? If you're going short-action, the 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor offer less recoil and slightly higher ballistic coefficient bullets that provide for somewhat better trajectory. There is even the .260 Remington for the Creedmoor haters that potentially out-performs either of the other darlings if you want to be individualistic and perhaps a few more FPS of bragging rights. So why would anybody want a .308 Winchester?
Those claiming the .308 Winchester to be anemic must also claim the .300 Winchester is anemic. Let me explain. In a density altitude of 1050, a 175 gr from a .308 Winchester fired at 2670 fps will have 3 mRad or 63.78" of drop at 575 yards. In the wind, the same load would drift 1.4 mRad or 32.8" in a 10mph wind at full-value. Remaining energy is around 1260 FPE with a remaining velocity of 1800 fps. This is the expansion floor for most bullets. What pathetic performance, right?
Let us compare to the mighty .300 Winchester with a similar bullet. We can expect the same 175 gr bullet to reach around 2960; ~300 fps faster in the .300 Winchester. To reach the same drop values and remaining velocity we can extend our range to a whopping 675 yards in the same density altitude to achieve the same numbers. That's it, a .300 Winchester gets you 100 yards!
Or think of it this way, an animal hit with a .300 Winchester at 675 yards is the same as hitting the same animal with a .308 at 575 yards. According to polling on this very forum, most hunters won't shoot past 300 yards or so on game. How could the .308 Winchester be ineffective and anemic if it will maintain the velocity floor faster than the average hunter is willing to take the shot anyway? Few would argue the .300 Winchester as being "anemic' at 675 yards so the .308 Winchester is absolutely fine under 575.
So why not choose a 6.5 Creedmoor? Surely the .308 couldn't get close. To be honest, my Tikka CTR 20" could never achieve the advertised Creedmoor velocities. Others suggest 2740 fps is common with their rifles and a 140 gr bullet. My Tikka would get a mere 2550 fps with the Hornady 143 gr ELD-X factory ammo, but we'll go with the popular number. The 6.5 Creedmoor will maintain the 1800 fps velocity floor in the same atmosphere quoted above to approximately 710 yards, but has a lower energy of 1070 FPE. If we go equal energy to the .308 with the 175 class bullet, energy equalizes with the .308 Winchester at around the same 575 yards, though the Creedmoor will drift 1.07 mils and around an impressive 23" of wind drift.
So we must conclude that the .308 Winchester is more than an adequate cartridge for big game hunting North America to the distances most on this website would be willing to take a shot. That, however, doesn't answer the question, "where does the .308 Winchester EXCEL?" Sure, we can comment on the wide range of available bullet weights, great variety of adequate powders, quality brass availability, and one of the largest varieties of factory loaded ammo at a reasonable price, but those arguments have been beat to death and the same advantages exist for .30-06 and daresay the 6.5 Creedmoor these days. But where does the .308 REALLY excel?
As previously mentioned, my short little 20" 6.5 Creedmoor actually could not match my .308 Winchester's velocity in the same length gun. In fact, my 2o" .308 actually out-performed the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor in REAL WORLD shooting...and running the numbers, the .308 won on the ballistic calculator out past 700 yards! We're told this is impossible. In fact, I had to get to a 22" Creedmoor to match the 20" .308 Winchester and over 24" to get to the velocity most claim from the 6.5 Creedmoor--which is fine, and likely the length of test-barrels for Hornady's data. But that brings to light exactly where the .308 Winchester excels; under 22" barrels. With any of the other cartridges, you're really handicapping them going below 22".
Additionally, having several of the "hot" rounds including 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5 PRC, .270 Winchester, and several others, none of them have exhibited excellent barrel-life. My 6.5-284 was dead in as little as 900 rounds. A couple of .260 Remington barrels died between 1700 and 2000 rounds. I have a .270 on its last leg with an estimated 2000 rounds on it. 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have run around 2500 before giving up the ghost. 6.5x47 Lapua seems to be the only round that has made it beyond 3,000 rounds for me...with one exception: the .308 Winchester. Currently in my battery is a .308 with over 5,000 rounds on it. My previous .308 barrel approached 8,000 rounds. One high-end .308 semi-auto of mine has a "guarantee" of sub-MOA performance for 10,000 or a free barrel replacement! Yes, the .308 Winchester excels at barrel-life like no other cartridge capable of being a solid 400 yard big game cartridge! If you want a rifle you can use, practice, and master at the range and still take it out to kill game with, there is absolutely no equal to the .308 Winchester.
This ^^^
I have a CTR in a Bravo in 6.5 Creed. I wanted to try the cartridge. I like it, and like the rifle even more. Once the barrel is shot out it'll probably become a .308 Winchester.[/quote.
Where does the .308 excel? Perhaps a better question would be where doesn't it excel? Just about every application I can think of......Hunting rifles, tactical rifles, benchrest rifles, military sniper roles, etc the .308 has been at or near the top of the heap at one point or another.
No matter how many different cartridges I've played with, I keep coming back to the .308 as it just makes so much sense. This little 700 weighs 7# with a 3-9 Zeiss conquest, stacks 150g Hornadys into neat little groups, is a dream to carry, ample horsepower for anything Im likely to hunt and does it all with mild recoil. I imagine this one will be with me until the end.
Don’t hear many folks complaining that they can’t get their .308 to shoot well.
I hear the parent cartridge of the 6.5 Creedmoor, the 30 TC, put the 308 Westernchester out of production. Not as inherently accurate without a 30 degree shoulder, not as efficient without the shoulder pushed back, just like all of its progeny.
It has always shot horribly for me with heavier bullets, like the 175 SMK, so its not as good as the 30-06 either , LOL.
I wonder why it's still around?
FWIW, I've shot numerous 308's and there's none I've toyed with that haven't shot 5 rounds under an inch when seated to the "2.800" COL with decent brass and straight bullets, some of them even mixed, without even knowing where the lands started.
Load those old original Barnes .308 diameter 250 grain round nose bullets in one and get it up to 2300fps. Knocks the poop out of a moose. Not a lot of recoil. Pretty darned good for a camp rifle.
It can be housed in short actions which when coupled with correct contour barrel can produce light nicely balanced rifle. Huge advantage is large selection of cartridges almost anywhere in the world at attractive prices (when compared to competition in similar ballistic class).
That is a good question. Many will suggest that the .308 Winchester is a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of a cartridge. At first glance, you may agree with that. After all, the .30-06 has more potential velocity if you break away from factory-loaded ammunition, but you're going to be forced into a long action. For hunting, why stop at the '06 when you can go straight to the .300 Winchester? If you're going short-action, the 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor offer less recoil and slightly higher ballistic coefficient bullets that provide for somewhat better trajectory. There is even the .260 Remington for the Creedmoor haters that potentially out-performs either of the other darlings if you want to be individualistic and perhaps a few more FPS of bragging rights. So why would anybody want a .308 Winchester?
Those claiming the .308 Winchester to be anemic must also claim the .300 Winchester is anemic. Let me explain. In a density altitude of 1050, a 175 gr from a .308 Winchester fired at 2670 fps will have 3 mRad or 63.78" of drop at 575 yards. In the wind, the same load would drift 1.4 mRad or 32.8" in a 10mph wind at full-value. Remaining energy is around 1260 FPE with a remaining velocity of 1800 fps. This is the expansion floor for most bullets. What pathetic performance, right?
Let us compare to the mighty .300 Winchester with a similar bullet. We can expect the same 175 gr bullet to reach around 2960; ~300 fps faster in the .300 Winchester. To reach the same drop values and remaining velocity we can extend our range to a whopping 675 yards in the same density altitude to achieve the same numbers. That's it, a .300 Winchester gets you 100 yards!
Or think of it this way, an animal hit with a .300 Winchester at 675 yards is the same as hitting the same animal with a .308 at 575 yards. According to polling on this very forum, most hunters won't shoot past 300 yards or so on game. How could the .308 Winchester be ineffective and anemic if it will maintain the velocity floor faster than the average hunter is willing to take the shot anyway? Few would argue the .300 Winchester as being "anemic' at 675 yards so the .308 Winchester is absolutely fine under 575.
So why not choose a 6.5 Creedmoor? Surely the .308 couldn't get close. To be honest, my Tikka CTR 20" could never achieve the advertised Creedmoor velocities. Others suggest 2740 fps is common with their rifles and a 140 gr bullet. My Tikka would get a mere 2550 fps with the Hornady 143 gr ELD-X factory ammo, but we'll go with the popular number. The 6.5 Creedmoor will maintain the 1800 fps velocity floor in the same atmosphere quoted above to approximately 710 yards, but has a lower energy of 1070 FPE. If we go equal energy to the .308 with the 175 class bullet, energy equalizes with the .308 Winchester at around the same 575 yards, though the Creedmoor will drift 1.07 mils and around an impressive 23" of wind drift.
So we must conclude that the .308 Winchester is more than an adequate cartridge for big game hunting North America to the distances most on this website would be willing to take a shot. That, however, doesn't answer the question, "where does the .308 Winchester EXCEL?" Sure, we can comment on the wide range of available bullet weights, great variety of adequate powders, quality brass availability, and one of the largest varieties of factory loaded ammo at a reasonable price, but those arguments have been beat to death and the same advantages exist for .30-06 and daresay the 6.5 Creedmoor these days. But where does the .308 REALLY excel?
As previously mentioned, my short little 20" 6.5 Creedmoor actually could not match my .308 Winchester's velocity in the same length gun. In fact, my 2o" .308 actually out-performed the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor in REAL WORLD shooting...and running the numbers, the .308 won on the ballistic calculator out past 700 yards! We're told this is impossible. In fact, I had to get to a 22" Creedmoor to match the 20" .308 Winchester and over 24" to get to the velocity most claim from the 6.5 Creedmoor--which is fine, and likely the length of test-barrels for Hornady's data. But that brings to light exactly where the .308 Winchester excels; under 22" barrels. With any of the other cartridges, you're really handicapping them going below 22".
Additionally, having several of the "hot" rounds including 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5 PRC, .270 Winchester, and several others, none of them have exhibited excellent barrel-life. My 6.5-284 was dead in as little as 900 rounds. A couple of .260 Remington barrels died between 1700 and 2000 rounds. I have a .270 on its last leg with an estimated 2000 rounds on it. 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have run around 2500 before giving up the ghost. 6.5x47 Lapua seems to be the only round that has made it beyond 3,000 rounds for me...with one exception: the .308 Winchester. Currently in my battery is a .308 with over 5,000 rounds on it. My previous .308 barrel approached 8,000 rounds. One high-end .308 semi-auto of mine has a "guarantee" of sub-MOA performance for 10,000 or a free barrel replacement! Yes, the .308 Winchester excels at barrel-life like no other cartridge capable of being a solid 400 yard big game cartridge! If you want a rifle you can use, practice, and master at the range and still take it out to kill game with, there is absolutely no equal to the .308 Winchester.
Load those old original Barnes .308 diameter 250 grain round nose bullets in one and get it up to 2300fps. Knocks the poop out of a moose. Not a lot of recoil. Pretty darned good for a camp rifle.
When I was a kid I was obsessed with learning everything I could about guns, hunting, fishing, botany, zoology…basically anything that related to the outdoors (history too) I was reading. My dad was a city boy that had no interest in anything outdoor related but my dad recognized my love for it and tried to nourish my hunger for the outdoors.
I read the ballistics tables and had them committed to memory by the age of 10. Thinking back I laugh at a little kid talking about velocity, bullet weight, impact velocities, etc. 😂. My first centerfire rifle was a Remington 788 in 30-30. I liked the idea of an unusual chambering, although extremely common, for a bolt action rifle. I really was intrigued by the more exotic offerings and found the 30-06 extremely boring, excellent but boring. After making my way through dozens and dozens of different chamberings I kinda came full circle with boring and have settled on the .308 for my all around rifle. It’s a lightweight Sako and while it’s terribly boring, like Catholic nun in the missionary position boring, it works great.
Because of the accuracy, mild recoil and the ability of the .308 to punch well above its weight I decided to “standardize” our main rifles around the .308 case and have added a couple .243’s and I’m seriously considering a .338 Federal…I have 4 or 500 of the 185 bonded bullets that were CHEAP And I need a suitable platform for them, they are too light for my .338wm but perfect for the 33-308. 😉
I was practically the same kid.
Ditto...
Even found my old target last year (cleaning out my parent's house) to prove it...
That is a good question. Many will suggest that the .308 Winchester is a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of a cartridge. At first glance, you may agree with that. After all, the .30-06 has more potential velocity if you break away from factory-loaded ammunition, but you're going to be forced into a long action. For hunting, why stop at the '06 when you can go straight to the .300 Winchester? If you're going short-action, the 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor offer less recoil and slightly higher ballistic coefficient bullets that provide for somewhat better trajectory. There is even the .260 Remington for the Creedmoor haters that potentially out-performs either of the other darlings if you want to be individualistic and perhaps a few more FPS of bragging rights. So why would anybody want a .308 Winchester?
Those claiming the .308 Winchester to be anemic must also claim the .300 Winchester is anemic. Let me explain. In a density altitude of 1050, a 175 gr from a .308 Winchester fired at 2670 fps will have 3 mRad or 63.78" of drop at 575 yards. In the wind, the same load would drift 1.4 mRad or 32.8" in a 10mph wind at full-value. Remaining energy is around 1260 FPE with a remaining velocity of 1800 fps. This is the expansion floor for most bullets. What pathetic performance, right?
Let us compare to the mighty .300 Winchester with a similar bullet. We can expect the same 175 gr bullet to reach around 2960; ~300 fps faster in the .300 Winchester. To reach the same drop values and remaining velocity we can extend our range to a whopping 675 yards in the same density altitude to achieve the same numbers. That's it, a .300 Winchester gets you 100 yards!
Or think of it this way, an animal hit with a .300 Winchester at 675 yards is the same as hitting the same animal with a .308 at 575 yards. According to polling on this very forum, most hunters won't shoot past 300 yards or so on game. How could the .308 Winchester be ineffective and anemic if it will maintain the velocity floor faster than the average hunter is willing to take the shot anyway? Few would argue the .300 Winchester as being "anemic' at 675 yards so the .308 Winchester is absolutely fine under 575.
So why not choose a 6.5 Creedmoor? Surely the .308 couldn't get close. To be honest, my Tikka CTR 20" could never achieve the advertised Creedmoor velocities. Others suggest 2740 fps is common with their rifles and a 140 gr bullet. My Tikka would get a mere 2550 fps with the Hornady 143 gr ELD-X factory ammo, but we'll go with the popular number. The 6.5 Creedmoor will maintain the 1800 fps velocity floor in the same atmosphere quoted above to approximately 710 yards, but has a lower energy of 1070 FPE. If we go equal energy to the .308 with the 175 class bullet, energy equalizes with the .308 Winchester at around the same 575 yards, though the Creedmoor will drift 1.07 mils and around an impressive 23" of wind drift.
So we must conclude that the .308 Winchester is more than an adequate cartridge for big game hunting North America to the distances most on this website would be willing to take a shot. That, however, doesn't answer the question, "where does the .308 Winchester EXCEL?" Sure, we can comment on the wide range of available bullet weights, great variety of adequate powders, quality brass availability, and one of the largest varieties of factory loaded ammo at a reasonable price, but those arguments have been beat to death and the same advantages exist for .30-06 and daresay the 6.5 Creedmoor these days. But where does the .308 REALLY excel?
As previously mentioned, my short little 20" 6.5 Creedmoor actually could not match my .308 Winchester's velocity in the same length gun. In fact, my 2o" .308 actually out-performed the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor in REAL WORLD shooting...and running the numbers, the .308 won on the ballistic calculator out past 700 yards! We're told this is impossible. In fact, I had to get to a 22" Creedmoor to match the 20" .308 Winchester and over 24" to get to the velocity most claim from the 6.5 Creedmoor--which is fine, and likely the length of test-barrels for Hornady's data. But that brings to light exactly where the .308 Winchester excels; under 22" barrels. With any of the other cartridges, you're really handicapping them going below 22".
Additionally, having several of the "hot" rounds including 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5 PRC, .270 Winchester, and several others, none of them have exhibited excellent barrel-life. My 6.5-284 was dead in as little as 900 rounds. A couple of .260 Remington barrels died between 1700 and 2000 rounds. I have a .270 on its last leg with an estimated 2000 rounds on it. 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have run around 2500 before giving up the ghost. 6.5x47 Lapua seems to be the only round that has made it beyond 3,000 rounds for me...with one exception: the .308 Winchester. Currently in my battery is a .308 with over 5,000 rounds on it. My previous .308 barrel approached 8,000 rounds. One high-end .308 semi-auto of mine has a "guarantee" of sub-MOA performance for 10,000 or a free barrel replacement! Yes, the .308 Winchester excels at barrel-life like no other cartridge capable of being a solid 400 yard big game cartridge! If you want a rifle you can use, practice, and master at the range and still take it out to kill game with, there is absolutely no equal to the .308 Winchester.
Thanks for typing that out... excellent information.
That is a good question. Many will suggest that the .308 Winchester is a "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of a cartridge. At first glance, you may agree with that. After all, the .30-06 has more potential velocity if you break away from factory-loaded ammunition, but you're going to be forced into a long action. For hunting, why stop at the '06 when you can go straight to the .300 Winchester? If you're going short-action, the 7mm-08 or 6.5 Creedmoor offer less recoil and slightly higher ballistic coefficient bullets that provide for somewhat better trajectory. There is even the .260 Remington for the Creedmoor haters that potentially out-performs either of the other darlings if you want to be individualistic and perhaps a few more FPS of bragging rights. So why would anybody want a .308 Winchester?
Those claiming the .308 Winchester to be anemic must also claim the .300 Winchester is anemic. Let me explain. In a density altitude of 1050, a 175 gr from a .308 Winchester fired at 2670 fps will have 3 mRad or 63.78" of drop at 575 yards. In the wind, the same load would drift 1.4 mRad or 32.8" in a 10mph wind at full-value. Remaining energy is around 1260 FPE with a remaining velocity of 1800 fps. This is the expansion floor for most bullets. What pathetic performance, right?
Let us compare to the mighty .300 Winchester with a similar bullet. We can expect the same 175 gr bullet to reach around 2960; ~300 fps faster in the .300 Winchester. To reach the same drop values and remaining velocity we can extend our range to a whopping 675 yards in the same density altitude to achieve the same numbers. That's it, a .300 Winchester gets you 100 yards!
Or think of it this way, an animal hit with a .300 Winchester at 675 yards is the same as hitting the same animal with a .308 at 575 yards. According to polling on this very forum, most hunters won't shoot past 300 yards or so on game. How could the .308 Winchester be ineffective and anemic if it will maintain the velocity floor faster than the average hunter is willing to take the shot anyway? Few would argue the .300 Winchester as being "anemic' at 675 yards so the .308 Winchester is absolutely fine under 575.
So why not choose a 6.5 Creedmoor? Surely the .308 couldn't get close. To be honest, my Tikka CTR 20" could never achieve the advertised Creedmoor velocities. Others suggest 2740 fps is common with their rifles and a 140 gr bullet. My Tikka would get a mere 2550 fps with the Hornady 143 gr ELD-X factory ammo, but we'll go with the popular number. The 6.5 Creedmoor will maintain the 1800 fps velocity floor in the same atmosphere quoted above to approximately 710 yards, but has a lower energy of 1070 FPE. If we go equal energy to the .308 with the 175 class bullet, energy equalizes with the .308 Winchester at around the same 575 yards, though the Creedmoor will drift 1.07 mils and around an impressive 23" of wind drift.
So we must conclude that the .308 Winchester is more than an adequate cartridge for big game hunting North America to the distances most on this website would be willing to take a shot. That, however, doesn't answer the question, "where does the .308 Winchester EXCEL?" Sure, we can comment on the wide range of available bullet weights, great variety of adequate powders, quality brass availability, and one of the largest varieties of factory loaded ammo at a reasonable price, but those arguments have been beat to death and the same advantages exist for .30-06 and daresay the 6.5 Creedmoor these days. But where does the .308 REALLY excel?
As previously mentioned, my short little 20" 6.5 Creedmoor actually could not match my .308 Winchester's velocity in the same length gun. In fact, my 2o" .308 actually out-performed the 20" 6.5 Creedmoor in REAL WORLD shooting...and running the numbers, the .308 won on the ballistic calculator out past 700 yards! We're told this is impossible. In fact, I had to get to a 22" Creedmoor to match the 20" .308 Winchester and over 24" to get to the velocity most claim from the 6.5 Creedmoor--which is fine, and likely the length of test-barrels for Hornady's data. But that brings to light exactly where the .308 Winchester excels; under 22" barrels. With any of the other cartridges, you're really handicapping them going below 22".
Additionally, having several of the "hot" rounds including 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Remington, 6.5 PRC, .270 Winchester, and several others, none of them have exhibited excellent barrel-life. My 6.5-284 was dead in as little as 900 rounds. A couple of .260 Remington barrels died between 1700 and 2000 rounds. I have a .270 on its last leg with an estimated 2000 rounds on it. 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have run around 2500 before giving up the ghost. 6.5x47 Lapua seems to be the only round that has made it beyond 3,000 rounds for me...with one exception: the .308 Winchester. Currently in my battery is a .308 with over 5,000 rounds on it. My previous .308 barrel approached 8,000 rounds. One high-end .308 semi-auto of mine has a "guarantee" of sub-MOA performance for 10,000 or a free barrel replacement! Yes, the .308 Winchester excels at barrel-life like no other cartridge capable of being a solid 400 yard big game cartridge! If you want a rifle you can use, practice, and master at the range and still take it out to kill game with, there is absolutely no equal to the .308 Winchester.
Thanks for typing that out... excellent information.
I’m always amazed at the amount of detail and volume of information on rifle ballistics, loads and bullets here on the fire. I live in a state where you couldn’t hunt with rifles until recently but I’ve been drawn to them since I was a little kid . Ive got a few nice rifles but I’ll likely never take them out West except for mule deer one day. Ive fell in love with September archery for elk. I have a Weatherby 7mm markV deluxe I did take a decent buck with at home , and I’m glad I did , but it sure was overkill as I’ve always used slugs in a shotgun . I’ve since used a Marlin 44 mag 1894 and I do like it. I appreciate reading these threads. Thank you
I used to think the 308 was as obsolete and as worthless as the 30-30... now that I have "matured" I own 3 of them and the 308 has made the 30-06 obsolete....
Youse guys calls it the .308, ok, I prefer the T65 circa 1952, in any case it's a dandy, can't argue that. But credit where credit is due, Paul Mauser dreamed up the 7.65x53 Mauser in 1889...it is what the .308 should have been, by 1905, it was bye bye 210 gr round nose, it then featured a 174 gr spitzer boat tail at 2560 from a 23 inch bbl. Sierra's .308 175 gr match wunderkind does scarcely better out of a 26 inch barrel. Don't for a second think the T65 engineers didn't notice this performance. Nah, prolly just coincidence. In case any of you ballistics nerds question the numbers...do not use the data from anemic piss poor loadings of the 7.65 Argentine.
In regards to the OP, I'd not spend the money on a 308 if I had a 6.5 in the same make/model. I'd spend the money it'd take to buy, set up the new rifle, on a trip to take the 6.5 hunting.
I ask my buddy about the 308, and he wrote that the 308 was never intended to excel at anything. It is a conglomerate of compromises designed to reliably kill or wound more bad guys per $. Acceptable recoil, satisfactory feed reliability across multiple platforms, component economy (raw brass and powder needed), weight and portability, etc. There are better cartridges for everything the 308 does, including the original intent.
Your buddy may think he's smarter than Jim Carmichael about the .308, but Jim's opinion carries a lot more weight with me. Carmichael called the .308 one of the finest cartridges ever for North American game as well as a superb heavy target round.
One of the things I like about this place, is all the different opinions and not being shy about expressing them. Facts be damned! The 308 Win is a great tool, one of many great tools and certainly not the only tool for us to use. As with any tool, you need to learn how to use it and use the tool for its intended purpose, not ask it to be a different tool, something it isn't. I have one of these tools, bigger and smaller ones too and enjoy the crap out of all of them.
Your buddy may think he's smarter than Jim Carmichael about the .308, but Jim's opinion carries a lot more weight with me. Carmichael called the .308 one of the finest cartridges ever for North American game as well as a superb heavy target round.
I respect Jim's opinion and I respect my buds opinion...I do not see where my bud thinks he is smarter than anyone about the 308...
One of the things I like about this place, is all the different opinions and not being shy about expressing them. Facts be damned! The 308 Win is a great tool, one of many great tools and certainly not the only tool for us to use. As with any tool, you need to learn how to use it and use the tool for its intended purpose, not ask it to be a different tool, something it isn't. I have one of these tools, bigger and smaller ones too and enjoy the crap out of all of them.
Hey... screw you... my great grandfather used the 308 for everything , therefore it's the best..
308 will get the job done with a wide range of bullet choices in factory ammo. only arguments I have seen where it excels is teaching a shooter to dope the wind. A finding factory ammo tends to be a relatively easy task.
Boils down to load development & load / bullet choice. & there is a pile of load data out there to support the 308.
As a reloader & for my needs 308 is generally more than I need or want by a large margin. YMMV
As you can see, a .308 Winchester with a heavy bullet actually walks away from the darling 6.5 Creedmoor, when loaded with a proper projectile. The punchline is that you end up with a heavier bullet that hits harder.
The thing is everyone compares the very best 6.5 bullets with mediocre .30 cal bullets like 150 grain bullets with low BCs and says " Look, my sports car beats your pickup truck". Lots of people have been bombarded with successful advertisement, and it has certainly worked. If you tell the same BS long enough, it becomes a truth..
The funny thing is the .30 cal ELD shown is not even the highest BC .30 cal available from Hornady, but it is one that is quite capable in a .308, if a person knows how to load properly.
There is not a thing wrong with the 6.5 CM (or .260s), and I have both, and have killed multiple elk using 6.5 caliber bullets. But as shown above, when loaded with heavy bullets, the .308 actually has some advantages that cannot be denied.
As you can see, a .308 Winchester with a heavy bullet actually walks away from the darling 6.5 Creedmoor, when loaded with a proper projectile. The punchline is that you end up with a heavier bullet that hits harder.
The thing is everyone compares the very best 6.5 bullets with mediocre .30 cal bullets like 150 grain bullets with low BCs and says " Look, my sports car beats your pickup truck". Lots of people have been bombarded with successful advertisement, and it has certainly worked. If you tell the same BS long enough, it becomes a truth..
The funny thing is the .30 cal ELD shown is not even the highest BC .30 cal available from Hornady, but it is one that is quite capable in a .308, if a person knows how to load properly.
There is not a thing wrong with the 6.5 CM (or .260s), and I have both, and have killed multiple elk using 6.5 caliber bullets. But as shown above, when loaded with heavy bullets, the .308 actually has some advantages that cannot be denied.
This is true. I experimented with a 208 Amax with a stiff charge of RL17, got 2500 fps. Problem was the 1/12 twist was marginal and accuracy was ok, for long range I want better than ok
My Sako and Tikkas are 11 twist and I have not had issues, but it has more to do with this individual bullet (bearing surface) than the rate I believe.
Mainer in AK was getting some pretty good numbers running 200 grain Speer Hotcores in his .308. 2550-2650 in his rifle.
I have seen 30-06s that chronograph similar numbers, sometimes even less when using factory ammo.
My limited 308 experience is a good all around cartridge. Proven Target or hunting or war, it’s a One and done type of a thing. Especially if you also have AR platform and keep things simple. Personally, If I wanted target rifle, I’d get the 6.5 or 7-08. If I wanted a hunting rifle, the 06. And if you say that 100 fps doesn’t matter, than don’t try to load up your 308 to 06 velocity.
My Sako and Tikkas are 11 twist and I have not had issues, but it has more to do with this individual bullet (bearing surface) than the rate I believe.
Mainer in AK was getting some pretty good numbers running 200 grain Speer Hotcores in his .308. 2550-2650 in his rifle.
I have seen 30-06s that chronograph similar numbers, sometimes even less when using factory ammo.
These new powders certainly wake up a few cartridge's. I read Mainer post and it was good info. I got the idea for RL17 from Montana Marine, more good info. I checked specs on Mainer's RAR and it has 1/10 twist. Many manufacturers use 1/12 twist, makes no sense to me. I suspect your 1/11 and altitude made your loads work well
I think it excels at being consistent. I had a Rem 700 in 308 that never lost it's zero with any load. Running 125's the group would land slightly high, but perfect windage. Sighted in with 150's was virtually no difference 165/168's at 100 yds. And then the heavies up to 200grs only printed slightly low. I've never played with any other combination that could do this
For practical purposes, the 308, 7-08, 6.5 Creed are all more alike than different.
Inside 600 yards, none has any appreciable advantage over the others...in my opinion.
I'm a fan of the 308 myself, but I can appreciate what the others bring to the table.
One big reason I like the 308 is that milsurp ammo is pretty much always available. And in a pinch, where primers and powder are hard to find, one can pull the bullet from a milsurp round, seat a 150-155gr bullet of your choice, and have ammo for whatever purpose.
One of these days I intend to get some low cost 308 steel-case Russian ammo, pull the bullets, replace with 155 Scenar, or Hornady 155gr ELD-M, and test accuracy.
Anyhoo, my go-to load is 48gr RL17 under a 208 AMax at 3.08" oal. that makes 2580 fps from a 20" barrel, and easily sub-moa accurate for 10 shots at 100 yards, even from a 1/12 twist barrel.
In this case load was 49.0gr RL-17, but the bullet was moly'd, .65" 10-shot group at 100 yards,
Shot with a factory Rem 700 Varmint barrel with the long throat and 1/12 twist, and a Bushnell 10X scope, bedded into a McMillan HTG stock.
Same rifle is no slouch with the 155gr Scenar, despite a fairly long jump to the lands,
For many years I felt the .308 was nothing more than a 30-06 wannabe. After a move to Nevada and hunting at the 8,000 to 9,500' level for Mule Deer, that old bubba'd 1903A3 weighed a ton and breathing was difficult, me being a serious chain smoker. Along about 1973 I told the wife I was going to but a new deer rifle as the one I was using was just too heavy. Money was tight at the time so when my local hardware store put a Remington 660 in .308 on sale I bit the bullet and bought it. I thought it was some kind of ugly so as I worked part time for a gunsmith I got a Fajen Mannlicher style stock at cost and went to work. Even with slightly heavier stock that damn gun still kick the hell out of me. YHe kids got my a set of ear muffs to deaden the sound of the gun fire and darned if most of the kick didn't go away. I worked up a load with the 150 gr. Sierra over a stiff load of H335 and called it good. I have no idea of he velocity but the load was loud and accurate so I went hunting. With my two hunting partners working in sort of a skirmish line we kicked uo a decent 4x4 Mule Deer and buddy #1 shot first as the deer took off, buddy #2 shot and I think it was his shot the score a hit and as the deer passed me I took a shot and the deer went down. One of my buds went to the deer and me and my other buddy paced it off at 426 paces. That's when I started to give the .308 some respect. In 1979 I got a job transfer to Tucson. Back then it wasn't too hard to get a tag for the Kaibab, unlike today where it takes an act of God and ten lawyers to draw one. In 1980 I found a Ruger M77 RSI in .308 for sale cheap and jumped on it. Took two years to get a useable load for that rifle. Winchester brass and WLR primer, 165 gr. Speer Hot Core and a stiff charge of W760. Velocity from the 18.5" barrel was 2550 FPS. Later the load was tested in a 22" barrel for 2610 FPS. Accuracy from the RSI ran from 1.25" to 1.50" and FWIW, that's the only load that rifle will shoot. Change one component and accuracy goes all to hell. The load shoots close to one inch on average, sometimes a little smaller some time a bit larger but never has gone over 1.25". Longest shot on game with the RSI was 250 yards laser measured. Nice fat Mule Deer. I'm not sure I'd want to tackle a Grizzly Bear with the .308 but if push came to shove I would if I had no choice in the matter. While I'm a big fan of the 165 gr. bullets in the .308, I hope that I'd have at least 180 gr. bullets in big bear country and preferably 200 or 220 gr. bullets. However, the odds of my being able to hunt in big bear country is something like very slim and none. PJ
Montana Marine, I’ve got a 308 eerily close to yours I call the war horse -now it has a 5-25 Vortex Strikeforce but thinking hard about the bushy 10x now that I’ve got a load for it.
My $.02 about loading for 308s is how great it would be be if it had 4-5grs more capacity.
My Dad killed all three elk he was able to take with a 308 Win chambered Savage 99. Around our house SA calibers ruled. Grandfather and Uncle all hunting with either a 243, or 308. I was the odd duck who insisted on a 30-06 through all of my early hunting career, but switched to a 308 later on. This round was bred and born to run semi and automatic which is where it's probably best though it's obviously excellent in a light weight mountain rig. Advancements in bullet designs have only increased it's effectiveness. It's hard to imagine a better deer getting round that's equally effective on the larger stuff.
For practical purposes, the 308, 7-08, 6.5 Creed are all more alike than different.
Inside 600 yards, none has any appreciable advantage over the others...in my opinion.
I'm a fan of the 308 myself, but I can appreciate what the others bring to the table.
One big reason I like the 308 is that milsurp ammo is pretty much always available. And in a pinch, where primers and powder are hard to find, one can pull the bullet from a milsurp round, seat a 150-155gr bullet of your choice, and have ammo for whatever purpose.
One of these days I intend to get some low cost 308 steel-case Russian ammo, pull the bullets, replace with 155 Scenar, or Hornady 155gr ELD-M, and test accuracy.
Anyhoo, my go-to load is 48gr RL17 under a 208 AMax at 3.08" oal. that makes 2580 fps from a 20" barrel, and easily sub-moa accurate for 10 shots at 100 yards, even from a 1/12 twist barrel.
In this case load was 49.0gr RL-17, but the bullet was moly'd, .65" 10-shot group at 100 yards,
Shot with a factory Rem 700 Varmint barrel with the long throat and 1/12 twist, and a Bushnell 10X scope, bedded into a McMillan HTG stock.
Same rifle is no slouch with the 155gr Scenar, despite a fairly long jump to the lands,
Good shooting with that factory barrel!
I used a 90's factory Rem 700 varmint in .308 for a season shooting NRA high power. I was broke at the time so I made my own across the course stock and used left over cases, powder and bullets I had on hand from shooting M1A service rifle. Mostly 175gr SMK's and IMR 4064. Shot losing HM scores and managed a second place in the NC state championship that year. Mostly Speer 125gr TNT for 200yd along with some 155gr SMK's. The rifle didn't seem to mind the chitty 3 times fired in a M1A cases so that's what I used except for 600yd line. Wish I'd left it alone but no I had to rebarrel that next year. Used 6.5-08 reamer held short .080 and cut the cases with a Dillon power trimmer with modified .243 trim die. Ballistics would overlay 6.5 Creedmoor today. All just to get a heavy bullet in the magazine for the 300yd line. Wish I'd left it alone, a lot of work for a very small gain.
I have owned 4 -.308's over the years, all were more accurate than they should have been, a factory Rem 700 VSSF would average 1/2" at 100 yards with preferred handloads, a Ruger 77 with the boat paddle stock right out of the box would average just under 1" with factory loads. A custom barreled 308 I had Dan Dowling build for me would average in the 2's at 100 yards, this rifle was the same weight and barrel as a Rem 700 Varmint with a tight necked chamber and a Jewel 2oz trigger and Shilen barrel. So I do like them.
T/C Compass Utility as it came out of the box topped with an old Nikon 4x scope. 100 yard group.
And yes I know I spelled Barnes wrong. But for an out of the box rifle with a price tag of less than $250 and an on hand scope what more can you ask for? My wife bought the rifle for me because I wanted a truck rifle for coyotes that I didn't have to worry about beating up. It is all I use now.
Montana Marine, I’ve got a 308 eerily close to yours I call the war horse -now it has a 5-25 Vortex Strikeforce but thinking hard about the bushy 10x now that I’ve got a load for it.
My $.02 about loading for 308s is how great it would be be if it had 4-5grs more capacity.
Nice. I don't think the Bushnell 10X is in production any more, but it's not a bad little scope. Currently I have the SWFA 10X MilQuad on the rifle, and the 10X Bushy is on a heavy-barreled AR15.
For practical purposes, the 308, 7-08, 6.5 Creed are all more alike than different.
Inside 600 yards, none has any appreciable advantage over the others...in my opinion.
I'm a fan of the 308 myself, but I can appreciate what the others bring to the table.
One big reason I like the 308 is that milsurp ammo is pretty much always available. And in a pinch, where primers and powder are hard to find, one can pull the bullet from a milsurp round, seat a 150-155gr bullet of your choice, and have ammo for whatever purpose.
One of these days I intend to get some low cost 308 steel-case Russian ammo, pull the bullets, replace with 155 Scenar, or Hornady 155gr ELD-M, and test accuracy.
Anyhoo, my go-to load is 48gr RL17 under a 208 AMax at 3.08" oal. that makes 2580 fps from a 20" barrel, and easily sub-moa accurate for 10 shots at 100 yards, even from a 1/12 twist barrel.
In this case load was 49.0gr RL-17, but the bullet was moly'd, .65" 10-shot group at 100 yards,
Shot with a factory Rem 700 Varmint barrel with the long throat and 1/12 twist, and a Bushnell 10X scope, bedded into a McMillan HTG stock.
Same rifle is no slouch with the 155gr Scenar, despite a fairly long jump to the lands,
Good shooting with that factory barrel!
I used a 90's factory Rem 700 varmint in .308 for a season shooting NRA high power. I was broke at the time so I made my own across the course stock and used left over cases, powder and bullets I had on hand from shooting M1A service rifle. Mostly 175gr SMK's and IMR 4064. Shot losing HM scores and managed a second place in the NC state championship that year. Mostly Speer 125gr TNT for 200yd along with some 155gr SMK's. The rifle didn't seem to mind the chitty 3 times fired in a M1A cases so that's what I used except for 600yd line. Wish I'd left it alone but no I had to rebarrel that next year. Used 6.5-08 reamer held short .080 and cut the cases with a Dillon power trimmer with modified .243 trim die. Ballistics would overlay 6.5 Creedmoor today. All just to get a heavy bullet in the magazine for the 300yd line. Wish I'd left it alone, a lot of work for a very small gain.
Good stuff there. Yeah, sometimes things are best left as they are.
Montana Marine, I’ve got a 308 eerily close to yours I call the war horse -now it has a 5-25 Vortex Strikeforce but thinking hard about the bushy 10x now that I’ve got a load for it.
My $.02 about loading for 308s is how great it would be be if it had 4-5grs more capacity.
Nice. I don't think the Bushnell 10X is in production any more, but it's not a bad little scope. Currently I have the SWFA 10X MilQuad on the rifle, and the 10X Bushy is on a heavy-barreled AR15.
They are nice little scopes that were sold for a great price. I have one on a heavy barreled .223 bolt gun that I have for my kids as a range rifle.
Montana Marine, I’ve got a 308 eerily close to yours I call the war horse -now it has a 5-25 Vortex Strikeforce but thinking hard about the bushy 10x now that I’ve got a load for it.
My $.02 about loading for 308s is how great it would be be if it had 4-5grs more capacity.
Nice. I don't think the Bushnell 10X is in production any more, but it's not a bad little scope. Currently I have the SWFA 10X MilQuad on the rifle, and the 10X Bushy is on a heavy-barreled AR15.
They are nice little scopes that were sold for a great price. I have one on a heavy barreled .223 bolt gun that I have for my kids as a range rifle.
Montana Marine, I’ve got a 308 eerily close to yours I call the war horse -now it has a 5-25 Vortex Strikeforce but thinking hard about the bushy 10x now that I’ve got a load for it.
My $.02 about loading for 308s is how great it would be be if it had 4-5grs more capacity.
Nice. I don't think the Bushnell 10X is in production any more, but it's not a bad little scope. Currently I have the SWFA 10X MilQuad on the rifle, and the 10X Bushy is on a heavy-barreled AR15.
It is pretty hard to beat a fixed 10X Mil reticle scope for practical field use. They have been getting the job done for a long time.
I use an SWFA Mil-Quad fixed 10X on a T3 .300wm for a longer range elk rifle and it works quite well.
Works good on targets of opportunity as they pop up too:
But a .308 with a 10X scope is just an easy button.
Montana Marine, I’ve got a 308 eerily close to yours I call the war horse -now it has a 5-25 Vortex Strikeforce but thinking hard about the bushy 10x now that I’ve got a load for it.
My $.02 about loading for 308s is how great it would be be if it had 4-5grs more capacity.
Nice. I don't think the Bushnell 10X is in production any more, but it's not a bad little scope. Currently I have the SWFA 10X MilQuad on the rifle, and the 10X Bushy is on a heavy-barreled AR15.
It is pretty hard to beat a fixed 10X Mil reticle scope for practical field use. They have been getting the job done for a long time.
I use an SWFA Mil-Quad fixed 10X on a T3 .300wm for a longer range elk rifle and it works quite well.
Works good on targets of opportunity as they pop up too:
But a .308 with a 10X scope is just an easy button.
I've never seen the utility in the .308 as a hunting cartridge. But I shoot 7mm, .300 WinMag, and .338 WinMag for North American game so a .308 does not offer any advantages.
But the Tikka CTR is a nice rifle so there is that.
Really? To me the .308 Win or an 06’ is about as good as it gets for a utility hunting cartridge. An all around general purpose hunting cartridge is its strongpoint.
I’ve shot more species of game with a 308 than anything else. It hits game hard, kicks little, isnt finicky to load for, ammo is everywhere, it can be housed in a light trim rifle, doesn’t need a26” barrel, plain Jane C&C bullets work to perfection at its velocities…what’s not to like?
I’ve shot more species of game with a 308 than anything else. It hits game hard, kicks little, isnt finicky to load for, ammo is everywhere, it can be housed in a light trim rifle, doesn’t need a26” barrel, plain Jane C&C bullets work to perfection at its velocities…what’s not to like?
Where does the .308 excel? Perhaps a better question would be where doesn't it excel? Just about every application I can think of......Hunting rifles, tactical rifles, benchrest rifles, military sniper roles, etc the .308 has been at or near the top of the heap at one point or another.
No matter how many different cartridges I've played with, I keep coming back to the .308 as it just makes so much sense. This little 700 weighs 7# with a 3-9 Zeiss conquest, stacks 150g Hornadys into neat little groups, is a dream to carry, ample horsepower for anything Im likely to hunt and does it all with mild recoil. I imagine this one will be with me until the end.
I’ve shot more species of game with a 308 than anything else. It hits game hard, kicks little, isnt finicky to load for, ammo is everywhere, it can be housed in a light trim rifle, doesn’t need a26” barrel, plain Jane C&C bullets work to perfection at its velocities…what’s not to like?
I’ve shot more species of game with a 308 than anything else. It hits game hard, kicks little, isnt finicky to load for, ammo is everywhere, it can be housed in a light trim rifle, doesn’t need a26” barrel, plain Jane C&C bullets work to perfection at its velocities…what’s not to like?
Well said...
irfubar; Good evening brother fubar, I hope the day's end - which is also the weekend's end - finds you all well.
Way back in the day, my late father brought home multiple Saskatchewan moose which died from whatever brand of .308 ammo was on the shelves of the little hardware store in the closest town. Now to be clear he'd started with a .303 like many or most other hunters in the early '60's did there and also shot at least a few moose with a .250 in a 99 as well.
A little further forward, but still perhaps qualifying for "way back in the day" we had a thread here which was more or less, "Is the .308 ever a bad choice" and the overall consensus then was no - not really.
Over the years if you'd ask me which rifles were the easiest to get to shoot smallish groups - again I'm an older guy and we weren't always able to buy sub 1" rifle off the shelf back then - I'd have suggested to start with a .308 and go from there.
For years my good wife hunted with a .308 and a .308 Norma, while I used an '06, a different .308 Norma and a .300 Win Mag.
Was there a noticeable difference in reaction to being hit - on deer/sheep/black bear sized animals?
Maybe a bit irfubar, but never as much as we thought there should be.
Though my better half has hung up her hunting clothes and parked her rifles, I did drag out her .308 carbine last deer season and didn't feel like I was handicapping myself any by doing so.
They seem to work well with a minimum of fuss in my experience and sometimes that's rather nice isn't it?
All the best to you all this fall and good luck on your hunts.
I’ve shot more species of game with a 308 than anything else. It hits game hard, kicks little, isnt finicky to load for, ammo is everywhere, it can be housed in a light trim rifle, doesn’t need a26” barrel, plain Jane C&C bullets work to perfection at its velocities…what’s not to like?
Well said...
irfubar; Good evening brother fubar, I hope the day's end - which is also the weekend's end - finds you all well.
Way back in the day, my late father brought home multiple Saskatchewan moose which died from whatever brand of .308 ammo was on the shelves of the little hardware store in the closest town. Now to be clear he'd started with a .303 like many or most other hunters in the early '60's did there and also shot at least a few moose with a .250 in a 99 as well.
A little further forward, but still perhaps qualifying for "way back in the day" we had a thread here which was more or less, "Is the .308 ever a bad choice" and the overall consensus then was no - not really.
Over the years if you'd ask me which rifles were the easiest to get to shoot smallish groups - again I'm an older guy and we weren't always able to buy sub 1" rifle off the shelf back then - I'd have suggested to start with a .308 and go from there.
For years my good wife hunted with a .308 and a .308 Norma, while I used an '06, a different .308 Norma and a .300 Win Mag.
Was there a noticeable difference in reaction to being hit - on deer/sheep/black bear sized animals?
Maybe a bit irfubar, but never as much as we thought there should be.
Though my better half has hung up her hunting clothes and parked her rifles, I did drag out her .308 carbine last deer season and didn't feel like I was handicapping myself any by doing so.
They seem to work well with a minimum of fuss in my experience and sometimes that's rather nice isn't it?
All the best to you all this fall and good luck on your hunts.
Dwayne
Brother Dwayne, Always nice to hear from you. In my youth I chased the magnums, even had a 308 Norma Mag similar to yours. Since I have grown older and wiser I see the advantages of the plain 308 Win and enjoy a few in my collection. Funny thing all these years of building rifles , thousands of handloads , chasing the ultimate long range killing machine, complete with large turret scopes and range cards. My longest shot on a big game animal was with a Kimber in 308 Win. 150 gr Hornady SST factory loads, using a 2-7 scope with a duplex reticle... 540 yds downhill just using hold over. The irony makes me smile...
Where does it excel? In a well built bolt rifle, it's no better or worse than a couple dozen or more other rounds. In my mind, it is as good as it gets in a lever gun. I have a Savage 99 in 308 that I picked up here on the fire. It'll shoot about an inch at 100 with open sights and I ring my 10" 200 yard steel with boring ease. I can't imagine another application where the 308 is as good as it gets.
Don’t get me started on how Savage 10ml-2 muzzleloaders excell
coz dis brotha posts pics
My progression was from .308 to 6.5-284, then .280 AI, now 6.5 PRC with a .308 as a backup gun. They all killed them dead. None deader than the others.
With heavy bullets, it would excel at a BLM or ANTIFA parade.
IF Schindler's List is to be believed, four at a time.
Aren't you that dude from Pinedale, WY and somewhere in FL?
In the PMs after he started running his mouth in reference to some classifieds and his need to remain top secret (he didn't want to let people to know where to send money if they were interested in buying loading dies), I mentioned the town where he lived.
He got his panties all twisted up and blocked me.
I was actually being nice as I could have provided his actual street address back to him.
I also mentioned his aka that he goes by and it really set him off.
Esox...yeah so does the 6.5 Creed. When I went to the range my son said the 308 had more recoil than the 6.5 but I guess is not that bad if you shoot say 20 rounds! In looking at Cabelas they have about equal number of boxes of 6.5 and 308 so there must be some that have this 308...
6.5CM and 308 Win are apples to oranges comparison...
I've owned several 308s over the yesrs, the only downside of the cartridge is that it works with routine boredom, shoots and kills as one would expect a 165 grain bullet at 2700 fps would do. Ammo is generally available world wide with Midway showing 63 ammo options currently in stock (https://www.midwayusa.com/308-winchester/br?Availability=Available&cid=22188&searchTerm=308). I'm building one now, hoping to get the parts cobbled together and to the range next month.
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I also ran a test with the 30-06 using rifles with 24" and 26" Barrels. The only time I came close to advertised factory levels was in the 26" barreled Ruger #1B. Makes me think that Winchester may have downloaded the pressure level for the 30-06 a bit. Note that 2300 FPS is exactly 100 FPS slower than advertised 220 bullet loads for the 30-06. Never could find any 220 gr. factory ammo for sale here in town but it would be interesting to run a few just to see exactly what velocity they actually give.![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/kgM076BL/IMG-5545.jpg)
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