So, all the news outlets have all these countless “experts” saying how they know the shooter is super well trained because of how he held his rifle.

Am I missing something? He has his strong-side elbow dropped 90 degrees to the floor like a little untrained schoolgirl.

As I was trained as a small child, and as the Marines reinforced, the elbow should be parallel to the deck, like this:



Does anyone think a skilled rifleman would have the elbow pointed down toward the deck?

Isn’t that just untrained and ghey?

Doesn't mean it won't kill undefended civilians. But I don't think it's evidence of superior training.

Not super well trained:

It is the new style as is being squared up because you are presenting your plates to the enemy.

The young cool guys would tell you that you have a chicken wing.

News last night said he obviously had been trained and knew what he was doing because he had “a scope and a bipod grip.”

Well, I would say that depends on the discipline you are trained in. I won't argue the military teaches good marksmanship, as I have never served. But I do know there are a lot of variations when it comes to shooting styles of well trained marksmen. Semantics, I know.



That being said, that croc wearing fücker clearly hasn't put in much footwork time, just based on the second photo you posted of him in the bowling alley.

Like your view on things, Hawk. I wouldn't call it evidence of superior training, either. But, I will tell you that a lot of the spec ops training videos that I see on YouTube are to bring the elbow in to make a smaller target to grab onto in CQB training for things like room clearing. I'm not saying you're training was bad by any means. I'm just regurgitating what I've seen on YouTube. Been watching a lot of YouTube lately. Ex: Shawn Ryan Show. He's an ex-Navy Seal and 10-year CIA operator. Just watched a video of his a couple nights ago on room clearing. Unfortunately, it's a skill that may come in handy for us lowly civilians in the maybe not too distant future, too.

Shawn Ryan interviews a lot of ex-operators, too. One of them being ex-Navy Seal Erik Prince, who is also the former owner of BlackWater. Those are some very interesting interviews. The guy knows a LOT about operations going on around the world, who's who on the bad guy lists, different governments' proclivity of action or non-action, etc. One very interesting topic of conversation between he and Shawn was how to keep from losing Africa to the Chinese. Prince believes if we carefully spent private investment there, we could get that done because a lot of the African people want to work with the US, not with China. Because China goes in with armies of workers and never wants to hire local people for anything, including, believe it or not, mess halls. So the local population doesn't gain anything from the magnitude of Natural Resources being stripped from their country.

As we all should know, the media doesn't know jack schidt of what they speak of. Just like Biden thinks you can put 100 rounds in a "chamber". They are stupid fu cks trying to attack our second amendment rights. It's sad that little pukes like that shoot unarmed and defenseless people. The problem with this country is they shut down the mental asylums and opened our borders.

Yep!!!

This is chicken wingin'

I don't think it's necessarily evidence of training, he could have just lucked out. But the "school girls" kick ass and they shoot that way.

The chicken wing stance is a hangover from the trigger geometry of the M-1/M-14.

The difference between the "target stance" shown in this video and a field position is in how squared off to the target the shooter is, the weight distribution, and the forward hand position. But none of this is fixed depending on what weapon the shooter is using and what their target is doing, how far away it is. If I had a bedded deer at say, 150 yards and nothing to rest on and too much cover to use a lower position like sitting or prone, you can be darn sure I'd be lining up as shown in this video. One time I shot a deer at ~300 setting up as shown.

Homo? Euromale? or both?

Per usual, Tyrone is spot on.

The only thing I'd add is have new grip angles such as the Magpul K2. The more forward the grip angle the less you tend to chicken wing.

You're not wrong, just old school. I was trained in much the same manner. Things evolve. Now I slap chicken wings down when walking the line. Oh, and get your support hand out on the forend so you can drive that muzzle.

I would say OP's form is dogs hit....unless you've been holding that rifle for 30 plus mins holding a perimeter or something.

What suits one may not suit another.

The fastest shooter in the world, Jerry Mic or something generally has his strong side elbow @ 45 deg. or lower. Weak hand approx. 6-8" in front of the mag well. Distance to target seems to change his steering hand as well. Closer to magwell with very close & multiple targets, & the further the target will have him reaching further on the handguard. The shooters arm length might have a bearing on this as well.

Now, I mentioned him being fastest, & what he uses obviously suits him. It may be close to being correct but may not fit everyone.

You were trained in the old way. Not that it’s wrong, just different techniques now. Drop the elbow down. Support hand out in the rail, thumb forward with a coke bottle grip. Give you better control of the muzzle to drive it to the target. Someone grabs that muzzle like you are holding it and they can wiggle that thing right out of your hands. Square up to the target to present your plates and keep a better shoulder width stance. Heel toe one foot at a time while moving forward.

Just different techniques as things have developed. Again, it’s not that you are WRONG, just there are better/different ways for different scenarios.

Gunzo, that’s what I was taught. Put your elbow where it’s comfortable and for me, depending on the shape of the stock and particularly the pistol grip, that’s a little below horizontal. In using offhand in bullseye competition with a 40-X, I dropped it to be pretty close to the chest because it gave a more natural approach to the trigger.

Watching guys shoot 3 gun, etc., you see all sorts of weird contortions, there’s no right or wrong, or better or worse, it’s whatever works for the shooter. Everyone can justify their method because MY way……………

The chicken wing stance went away when the military stopped using full grown rifles. Raising the elbow creates a pad of muscle that absorbs the recoil of a .30-06 or a .308 better, something that's not needed when using a "poodle shooter" as Jeff Cooper called the M-16.

Uh, that's backwards I think, but poke your finger tips in the rifle butt position on your shoulder & feel it.

Raising the elbow makes a nice pocket for a rifle butt, lowering it puts mor meat into the pocket for the big kickers.

Tools in the toolbox. Gotta have them.

Thanks for the responses, guys. I've learned some new things here. Horizontal is the way I was taught, and I don't think I easily could change that now. But I didn't know that the alternative is, essentially, legitimate.

Sure, Boomer.

I am three years inside of Gen X. But I taught my sons to shoot the way I do. So, that will live on in Gen Z.

Good CQB training will show the errors of our old ways...

When I was on the Narcotics entry team in Columbus I carried a 12 1/2” Bushmaster carbine set up like this (my 16” Stag arms carbine). By holding the vertical grip it forced me to keep my elbows in. I didn’t want someone behind me shooting my elbow off in a moment of stupidity. My issued rifle had an Aimpoint Comp M3 optic on it. The one in the pic is an Aimpoint Patrol Rifle Optic.

Ron