Breaking from Newsmax.com

May be old news. I just saw it.

Keith Olbermann Offers $1,000 a Second for Sean Hannity Waterboarding

MSNBC news commentator Keith Olbermann is taking on his Fox News counterpart Sean Hannity over the issue of waterboarding � in a rather extreme way. He blasted Hannity�s views on the issue and said he would donate $1,000 to charity for every second that Hannity is waterboarded.

Get 'im Sean. Bankrupt his ignorant azz.

Details:
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/olbermann_hannity_torture/2009/04/24/207025.html

Anyone believe Olbermann would be good to his word when it came time to pay up? I don't.

I'm thinking the over under should be 30 seconds.

Under.

Me either! That slime bag would only pay up if the "charity" was ACORN, NAMBLA, PETA etc.. Bankrupt his ass Hannity!

Yeah, I'm thinking Hannity will cry like a little girl after 20-25 secs.


Too bad we couldn't waterboard both of the windbags. Be more entertaining than listening to either of their drivel.

Yeah but you tarnished saints have to have somebody to persecute....I mean prosecute afterwards, doncha?

Here's Christopher Hitchens getting waterboarded. He didn't last very long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58

Aren't you the one running around preaching about Christianity and in the very next breath, you advocate torture.


Sometimes I almost forget about the hypocrisy of religious types.

It makes me sick that we have released information that this country advocated such a thing and even more sick that we did/do it!

One former Fox employee and one current.Who cares?

If he makes it five seconds I'll be surprised; ten, I'll be astonished.

The same "reasoning" was the basis of "trying" a defendant by whether he could hold a mouthful of rice for a given time and then spit it out moist or dry.

"Logic!"

Sheesh

Old Center Church,

Once the decision has been made not to kill a prisoner captured on the "battlefield" outright (and in the case of terrorists, this could be anywhere) they should probably be treated humanely, since it would be simply illogical not to do so.

However, if it is thought a prisoner has strategic information that could help to save American lives, ANY means whatsoever should be employed to obtain it from him.

And it should be presumed that he would do likewise!

The fact that you can sit in front of your computer and type this chickenschit drivel may some day depend on our military's ability to extract information from some terrorist slimeball.

Hopefully they will be able to do their job despite all the weak kneed protestations from girly men like yourself.

Yeah, too bad we can't do it to O'Rielly too.

Hey buddy, I'll gladly admit to being a hypocrit. There is not a person wearing flesh who is not, so what's the rub? If that's all you got, you ain't got nothin'!

I'm sure you are one too. I don't know if you have any children, a wife, or a mom and dad, but if you do and if they were buried with an hour or two of air left and you had the opportunity to question the person who knew exactly where they were, it's my guess you would do ANYTHING you could to rescue them. Add to that, this scumbag had raped, beat, and abused them in nearly everyway imaginable, and enjoyed every second of it.

But maybe not. Maybe you are of such impecible moral standards that you would let your bleeding dying loved ones suffocate to death rather do whatever it took to get the location from their abuser. If you truly are, you are the only one I know.

Extend that to men and women charged with keeping this country safe who became aware of plots to kill, maim and wreak havoc on our citizens. The murderous resolve and fanatical mindset of our enemies was well known by then. As a last resort to stop these plans they did resort to techniques we would not have typically employed with an enemy less determined and with no mercy. And every citizen of this country should be glad they took that burden on their conscience and did their job the best way they could under the circumstances.

I know I am and I find no hypocrasy in that.

Here's a little reminder about the judgements of the Lord. When it became apparent that a people were without reclaimation, God told Israel to utterly destroy them. To leave no life remaining. He did that because he knew they had become jaded beyond redemption and would only serve to corrupt anyone else they came in contact with. The religions around Israel were vile and corrupt using young girls as temple whores and often demanding human sacrifice of new borns. If a man can believe he's worshipping by screwing his neighbors daughter or maybe his own, and placing his new born son on a brazen alter to burn alive, I think I can see where the Lord was coming from.

These Islamists are little different. They would sooner rip your guts out and rape your women as they would look at you. They hate you and I with a passion most of us could not understand. I think that should be obvious from the excerps of Al Jazerra programing where they proclaim that hatred for the entire Islamic world to hear about and aspire to. And for us to hear and understand. Amazing how some cannot.

Rick the unapologetic hypocrit

And how about including ignorant bastards like yourself who can't even spell......it's O'Reilly ............you azzhole.

FWIW I think water boarding is much better than if your captured by those who are being waterboarded. They will make a video of you getting your head cut off and post it on the Internet.

ML

I have no problem with it only because of who it is done to. These bastards are not soldiers, they do not follow any convention, they mutilate are boys, target women and children, to hell with them.

Once they set the ground rules then they should have to live with the ground rules. If they followed the standards many feel we should follow, then I would agree with you, but they don't.

If you wish to fight a bare knuckled opponent with gloves on, do not expect a good outcome.

+1 with the caveat that we are certain, not just suspect, that the person being dealt with is a terrorist. And not by the definition of domestic terrorist that our current fascist regime so despicably applies. I'd never want to see the case of widespread and cavalier use of this interrogation method. Given strict guidelines in whether and how we proceed, we retain the moral high ground. We already know what the enemy would do in reverse position.

And I'm confident that all our Campfire stoics who predict early collapse and panic by Hannity et alii would of course be unfazed by any length of time of subjection to such aqueous entertaiment. And I suspect that anyone who's suffered for several days with a transient kidney stone without crying will be able to handle it with only an occasional squirm and groan.

Oh yes, I think we should treat those murderous thugs that hate us and our country as if they were guests at a family reunion.

Let's not go to war ever again, let's just play patty-cake no matter what.

Old Center Church,
It makes me sick when terroist killed 3000 Americans in the Twin Towers, it makes me sick that they kill American boys daily...It does not make me sick when a terroist is waterboarded. It bothers me that our soldiers are water boarded during training so they will know what its like, and you have the audacity to say it makes you sick that we use these harmless methods of torture, that we impose on our own people.. ..

It makes me even sicker to hear you liberals post about it with such holier than thou BS... I wonder if your children or grandchildren were being blown into chunks, your churches blown to smithereens, road bombs going off daily, what you would do..I can tell you what you will do, you will whine, piss down your yellow leg, and cry all cuddled up in the fetal position and whistle "who'd a thought it" and beg the boys doing the waterboarding and the killing for you to save save your sorry ass....

That is what makes me sick...

I will tell you that I am a Christain, and I go to church every Sunday, and I believe in God and Jesus Christ, and I know right from wrong but I don't hide behind the pulpit and use that as an excuse to allow anyone to attack and kill my countrymen and put my country into a state of fear, never have and never will..You sir, and all like you should be ashamed of yourselves and pay a visit to Arlington. It makes me sick that many died for someone like yourself..

Used to be that you pro-torture folks advocated it only in situations where a prisoner had information that would save American lives. Then it was situations where a prisoner might have information that would save American lives. Now it's situations where a prisoner might have information that could save American lives.

You see this progression?

Although you don't realize it, you're already at the point where you're giving the State permission to torture anyone at any time for any reason...except when it comes for you, of course. When you protest that you're protected against torture by the Eighth Amendment, the response will be, "How are we to know that you don't have information that could save American lives? You're in favor of torture in such situations, correct? We'd better torture you just in case."

You DHAGRs are approving torture by the State at a time when the State is controlled by Democrats in general and Obama in particular.

[shakes head]

I'm surprised I lived to see the day.

Ever heard of Laurence Vance? You should read some of his stuff.

Barak,
You really wouldn't like Idaho....it would be a dangerous place for you to live talking like that..These folks are just way to far right for you, unless you lived in Sun Valley where you could smoke dope, and marry you brother...:)

Before long, everywhere in America will be a dangerous place to advocate liberty or dissent against the State. I guess Idaho is just ahead of the curve.

how do i sign up. i'll go for $100 a second.

No problem.

Just come to Oregon and I will arrange for you to be water-boarded.

Bring $200. . . . . . . .

BMT

Oh come on. Get real here. You going to beat him with a sledgehammer in his solar plexis while doing the waterboarding? Yeah, it's not the same as just holding your breath ... but I think a little 5yr old girl could beat 2 seconds.

You said a mouthful there. Me too. Never would have thought it could happen in America, but it unfolded right before my eyes.

If you're able to comprehend what that little button on your teeeveee or radio that reads "OFF," means, you don't have to listen to their drivel.

L.W.

Waterboardings too tough on'em. I'm thinking more like fire ants,perhaps some of our Alaska folks could help out a redneck? chicken livers or pig blood?

You're using the Jack Bauer argument that somehow we might have an enemy combatant or terrorist who has knowledge of an imminent attack on our country.

Problem is, this isn't tv and that likelihood is extremely rare at best. What that argument does do is give the govt the pretext to make torture an accepted method of interrogation for whomever they feel could be a threat under the guise, "what if we find that one in a million scenario".

Maybe your fine given our govt the power to torture under circumstances they see fit. Me, I'm of the mind once you open that door for our govt, they'll continue to argue for all kinds of scenarios torture is necessary until they're doing it to our own citizens under some broad definition of a possible threat.


No thank you.

That Olbermann strikes me as a very bitter person. Is he hateful by nature, or is it because no one watches his show?

What makes me sick are people who can't see 2 feet in front of their face or they'd realize giving a government this type of power is extremely dangerous.


With all the cases of govt abuse and ineptitude, you'd figure most would be just a little leery of handing over such power to those in authority.

College hazing in Dad's day � and the old Navy rituals for crossing the line � would make water-boarding look like a game for kids at recess.

Dad's fraternity would position a goat with its tail-up ass near a pledge's face, blind-fold the pledge, then make him kiss the freshly licked, flexed, hairy elbow of a burly senior member. (Imagine a muslim who's convinced that he's about to have his face jammed into the ass of a pig.)

Another initiation stunt comprised tying one end of a stout cord to a pledge's penis and the other end to an unabridged dictionary, then dropping the dictionary down the stair-well from the third floor to the first floor. The result was usually anguish until the dictionary landed with plenty of slack still in the line.

Usually � until the day when a snarl in the line stopped the dictionary before it hit the floor far below.

Seems to me that a few old-time college boys or salty old tars could modify old hazing pranks into interrogation techniques that would loosen the tongue of a marble statue.

I'm not surprised that it happened--it has to happen eventually, if the existence of the State is to continue. But I am surprised, and embarrassed, that the pussification of my countrymen has proceeded to the point where they are in large numbers this vulnerable to the State's fearmongering intellectuals in my generation.

Notice also how the propagandists have managed to define this craven groveling submission before the State's usurpations as courageous, and dissent against it as cowardice. That is something I certainly would never have foreseen. War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.

I'm reminded of that line from Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: "So this is how freedom dies: to thunderous applause."

Exactly!

Barak,

I know that you are not stupid, so I can only interpret your mis-characterization of my remarks as being malicious.......

Instead of cherry picking a line or two out of someone's post and quoting it out of context so you can make a point that supports one of your half baked ideas ( a favorite tactic of yours by the way) why don't you quote the entire post so others here can see how devious and petty you are.

For those of you in Rio Linda, my comments about extracting information from prisoners related only to those individuals captured on the battlefield (as I clearly stated in my post) and were based on the premise that during an armed conflict the military (not the state as BOBO Barak would lead you to believe) should use whatever means possible to glean the maximum amount of strategic info it can from the enemy.

Thas all..........

Here is what I don't get, if you hold your breath and the minute you feel the water start exhaling through your nose that should get you ten fifteen seconds, how come some people flip out after two seconds?

After all the discussion I'd like to try it just to see for myself what it is all about.

Ever been to the dental hygienist for a teeth cleaning and the water from that sonic cleaning thingy starts filling up your mouth and because you're leaning back it starts going down your throat because the suction tube is not positioned right? Imagine this is done on purpose to you and you're strapped down.

So how come when Lincoln was allowing torture or the killing of POW's and FDR was allowing detention centers for innocent Americans and torture and firebombing women and children or Truman was incinerating women and children or Johnson was allowing torture that it didn't escalate to some sudden loss of American Liberty. Gradual perhaps, but that's not how some of you sensitive types are talking. Y'all are essentially saying that this waterboarding stuff is the worst thing to happen to freedom in a coon's age.

In realty, the Bush admin was acted with kid gloves compared to every war time President in history other than his Father and that's just because we didn't have to occupy anything.

But for the first fifteen seconds, why isn't your mouth closed? Then water would have to enter through your nose, but only after you run out of breath to exhale, right?

Most of the country got it after 9/11 and this country is sloooooow. You guys might catch up sometime but these people are not our people and their ways are not our ways. Jefferson and Churchill had no time for the Muslim and I would guess it was a sentiment widely shared. I suppose it might be that annihilation of any religion and culture but theirs thing that they got going on that puts some folks off. I'll count myself among them. I'd prefer to keep my faith and culture, such as it is, the way it is, thank you.

The truth is the things these people do and the ways that they do them to achieve their hellish goals gives them not a single legitimate claim to humane treatment of any kind. But being a country of mercy, we are certainly above giving them what they justly deserve, even though it would be the only way to end this. Any chance of that is quickly fading.

So you can blame America that we have been afflicted by this Islamic scourge, but I believe the blame lies with them. What may happen to them along the way is no one's fault but theirs, though we will no doubt bend over backwards to be humane. The thing I never thought I would see in all of this is how our obviously superior humanitarianism would not be enough for so many and that many of my countrymen in additon to the rest of the world would have us cut our own throats to the point some (not you guys) would draw the knife.

No libtards never belly up. Just more BS from the left.

There's no way that even with the loftiest of intentions, the finest of techniques, and the most favorable of opportunities we're going to eliminate suffering, injustice, and death slowly or rapidly from our lives.

A microcosm of this fact is the real-world instance of one man determined to kill another. There's no way that talk or law or meek forbearance is going to prevent the loss of life. Somebody's going to die. The intended victim deserves an equal opportunity to have an active role in determining who dies.

Discussion is one thing. Anybody can espouse anything � just as a wrong move can lead to a "crash" in a flight-simulator with neither injury, death, nor damage as a result.

Real life is quite a separate matter, often without the luxury of "let me try that again" or "are you determined to do this, no matter what?"

LOL I bout fell out tha computer chair on that one!

Beautifully put sir.

if Hannity (and Fox) is smart he'll take the challenge and donate the proceeds to charity. it would be a huge bit of publicity for both networks. personally i think they are both like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter etc. they are just selling books and advertising

Anybody on here ever been to SERE and been waterboarded? I bet damn few, especially the one's wetting their drawers over it. It is unpleasant, and scary as hell, but it ain't torture. It was done, and still may be done to our servicemen routinely during training. IIRC, it was used a grand total of 3 times on terrorists, one of whom helped plan the WTC debacle-unless you believe the "truthers" drivel. The three in question are still alive, and unharmed, and will possibly be released into the USA to live next door to some of you.

Waterboarding is a non issue, for me. BTDT. The larger issue is the destruction of the morale of our intel types. I sure wouldn't go out of my way to gather intel for this band of clowns, knowing that I would be thrown to the wolves for doing something that was legal. To be quite honest, more than half of the country isn't worth fighting and dying for, and sometimes I regret having spent a large portion of my life defending their right to be pu$$ies. YMMV, and probably does, given the posts here.

Better still, let 'em both be water-boarded side-by-side and see which one sputters first.

Thank you for your service and that statement.

I wonder if Americans tortured any prisoners in WWII or Vietnam or Korea? Somehow I hardly think this is the first time. Probably the first time it's been made public though.

Olbermann makes me think of what a contemporary said about an earlier similarly opinionated and supercilious news anchor � "[He] believes that the purpose of the news is to bring you him."

Some so called men whine about waterboarding but the enemy has no problem beheading our soldiers and anyone else that crosses their path... Some need to get a grip on reality. If we have to waterboard to attempt to save a single life it is worth it to me.

LOL!

You are forgetting that this is not the Bush Administration we are living under. We are living under the Obama Administration and He believes that the Terrorists live right here and that they are you and me. Government does not give up power and the precedent has been set. Obama may not use waterboarding on the Muzzies but I don't trust him for a second to not use that power on Domestic Terrorists.

I see where they supposedly captured the head guy of Al Quaida in Iraq.

i don't think "capture" is the word, exactly.

I think he just couldn't stand to miss his Bro Barry's tea and crumpets party, and turned himself in...

"Work from the inside".... so to speak.

Sure as hell we won't get nuthin out of him.....

Gathering intel to save our collective butts is dead serious business. Pizzin' and whinin' over the meaning of "is" weakens our effectiveness. Olbermann doesn't get it. The left doesn't get it, and the pointy headed idealists don't get it. We are at war, and we must win. If we have to play dirty, that's okay with me. I don't feel diminished as an American, if the enemy is waterboarded. I am completely comfortable in my belief that we are the good guys, and they are the bad guys. This is not a gin rummy game, this is kill people and blow stuff up WAR. It is not pretty - but we MUST win. If idealism suffers a bit, so be it. The left has simply found a new lever to pry some folks over to their side. They could care less WHAT the lever is. The power brokers don't have a sincere bone in their bodies.

It's a progression with you people. Perhaps you insist now that it be restricted to foreigners on a foreign battlefield; but you've already progressed from "only specific people under specific circumstances" to "anyone under any circumstances--as long as he's on a battlefield." It's easy to see that you'll drop that last condition as well just as soon as the State presents you with an American citizen in Des Moines or Omaha who "could have information that might save American lives."


Of course, the military is the State, perhaps in its clearest expression as naked coercive force.

The enemy of the State against whom the military fights is simply whomever the State decides to designate as an enemy; and the only thing keeping the State from designating you as an enemy against whom the military will to fight is the tattered remnant of the Posse Comitatus Act left by Baby Bush, which will certainly be swept completely aside by Obama as soon as he A) can manufacture an excuse, and B) can spare some time from destroying the economy.

But it's not "we" who are waterboarding our enemies. It's the State that's waterboarding its enemies.

So far the State's intellectuals have managed to convince many of us that its enemies are ours as well.

But "we" are gun owners, hunters, shooters, dissenters against unlimited State growth and against many State policies--in other words, people who will eventually be designated enemies of the State, and against whom the State's intellectuals will whip up at least as much animosity in the general population as they have among Campfire members against Muslims in general.

Just as the Second Amendment has succumbed to the argument, "But nobody but a police officer or a soldier needs a gun like that," the Eighth Amendment will succumb to the argument, "But he might have information that could save American lives!"

The desperate scramble of present-day Americans to constantly be digging up new liberties to relinquish to the State in exchange for promised security embarrasses and disgusts me.

Well said!

Well, he really didn't but you have no problem taking it there if it helps with your delusional point. Just noticing these last few years.

+1

You know, from the moment you showed up here, your language and attitude reminds me of high school boy at a beer party....trying to impress the girls......


Casey

Personally, I would love to see BOTH Hannity and Olbermann waterboarded......I don't know if I could afford a $1000 a second, but I'd pay something nonetheless......

Those are two of the most grotesquely partisian commentators on TV.......



Casey

Hannity is a scik man. He talks in circles, has usually no basis for what he says and then makes comparisons which are ludicrous and they become the truth on his show. I watched him interview Huckabee last night. Not an interview really, a scripted dialoque about why Americans should be cowards and afraid to show the rest of the world and our citizens what our govt' does. The main import of it was we must hide what we do so no one else knows what we are doing and then we don't have to explain it. Pretty sad for the home of the free and the brave. A man once said charachter isn't based on what you do when other people are watching, but what you do when no one is watching. Hannity is backing having no stregth of charachter or morals. Thank you right wing.

For every Hannity that the right wing has, there are hundreds of "Lodiman" trolls spouting off ignorant drivel.

Partisanship is a destructive thing when Hannity does it, sure enough; but it doesn't somehow become consecrated and holy when the other side does it.

Let's have a break from the Obama supporters hollering "Coverup!" until at least after their guy produces a birth certificate.

Doesn't make it right when Hannity does it. As a matter of fact, that seems to be his standby defense when his pet politicians are accused of something: the Democrats did it first, or worse, or both, so it's okay.

In other words, any imaginable State outrage is okay as long as A) it's committed by the right party, and B) an equal or greater outrage (relative magnitudes to be assigned by Hannity, of course) from the other party can be found.

On the other hand, the DHAGRs deserve him.

Lodiman/girliman makes my point. I sincerely regret having spent 15 years of my life defending the rights of pu$$ies such as he to spew their collectivist filth and undermine our country. I would highly discourage any young man from joining today's military as people such as he are definitely not worth defending. Unfortunately, they populate more than half of the country, and seem to be growing like the parasites that they are. Only one cure for parasites.

As I mentioned in a previous post, "thought to have information that may save American lives" evaluates in practice to "any reason or no reason." Ask any lawyer. You, for example, right now, may have information that could save American lives: under nemesis' protocol (except for the soon-to-be-eliminated "battlefield" part, of course) you're justly liable for waterboarding right now.

I know of 3 Jorge, Pugs and me.

Well, make that 4. Warner Springs, CA 1983.

The ones that call waterboarding torture haven't a clue.

So you're saying our POW's who were waterboarded weren't tortured?

If it were one of your kids who ended up serving, you'd be just fine if they were captured by a foreign country and repeatedly waterboarded,.....since it's not torture?

Waterboarding ain't nothin', it is mind over matter. I have girls, would rater they get waterboarded instead of raped. Les

Fact. It's a pretext to vent as to how cruel we are as a country, and how evil we have been in the past. If it wasn't waterboarding, it would be something else. I'm not a fan of a big central government, but one of our Constitutional mandates is defense. Gathering intel in order to keep another 9/11 from happening is defense. Using non lethal and non crippling techniques to gather that intel is totally justifiable, especially when every safeguard has been in place to ensure it doesn't get out of hand. When the next attack happens, not IF but WHEN, all of these self righteous pantywaists will be screaming as to who dropped the ball, why didn't we know? I only hope that the victims are someone to whom they're close. Maybe then they'll get the picture on what we're defending against.

mike762


should our trails ever cross the beer or beverage of your choice is on me


not just for this thread but for many that you've participated in.


and trust me your 15 years were not in vain even if it spared the likes of folk that you detest.

somewhere in the world today, young men of character and integrity are donning gear to do battle for our nation, whether the mission or cause they are sent on is of great national security or just another giant cluster*(&^ caused by politicians matters not, they've willingly put themselves in harms way.


Why? for love of country and if I might the example set by the men before them.

don't let the whining of one persistent puke (or even the 52% of folks aligned with him somewhat) drown out the noise of buckles being fastened, zippers being drawn up, boot laces sliding through eyelets and magazines slammed into wells.

those small noises, those motions they go through in preparation to go in harms way in our stead I hope will remind you that your service was not in vain.


for my money we can torture by any means any combatant that might possibly ensure the odds of their safe arrival home.

others here differ and I respect their right to an opinion.

in my mind I like to think much of the deaths in our military has been to ensure that we may continue to live under our Constitution including the 2nd ammendment as our protection from a tyrannical gov't.

it is the last bastion of a free people


it saddens me deeply that the foresight of our forefathers in recognizing that right may have to be put to the test in the future.

but I thank my maker for them doing so and the folks in the military that have all given some and some given all to ensure that it reamined so.

thank you for your part in that

One thing for sure about the far left is that if you disagree with them then your a radical, they are, to the man, not interested in another opinnion, that's the new American way, after all they won the election!

Furthermore, they are the first to scream for the prosecution of our soldiers ... for being warriors when at war. They second guess actions from the armchair with no consideration for the chaotic peril of battle zones.

Is this directed at me??

again with the extreme hypotheticals instead of the real world.

answer the real world question: if waterboarding Khalid Sheikh Muhammed saved, say, 100 innocent lives.....is it OK, or do you still oppose it? just answer that, real world question....don't give me your made up worst case..."oh, they'll be doing it to you tomorrow" argument. Just answer that very simple question.

America didn't waterboard Americans, or uniformed adversaries subject to Geneva, or Afghan farmers, or even run of the mill terrorists. A handful of boss terrorists got boarded....and gave up critical intel about ongoing ops. Hoo-freaking-ray.

More, please.

They don't waterboard, they just chop your head off with a dull blade............

You talk about extreme hypotheticals then you go there in your very next sentence.



Is there any proof info gathered from torture has saved any lives or was any more effective than non-torture methods?


If we want to use extreme hypotheticals, would you be opposed to the govt having unrestricted surveillance abilities over US citizens if it saved 100 American lives?

That ain't torture, it's outright murder. Stick a .22 between their eyes and pull the trigger.

not a chance trips

should have named Lodiman by name, but makes me want to spit to name him


I can respect the argument you and others make worrying about "granting" our gov't the right to do torture, and even see the cause for your concern.


but the way I see it, the military's job is to keep our constitution safe from the foreign dangers it's OUR job as an armed and free speech society to keep it safe from domestic harm including people that have been elected by a popularity contest.

the military seems up to the task quite nicely imo, tis our end that's dragging.

I'm a barbarian in some matters, if they cut the head off one of ours, we incinerate 10,000 of them.

that won't change for me


but I do feel we are repeating history, recent history, if we call our young men and women to war, it should be of vital national security (Pakistan comes to mind) and it should be no holds barred win at all costs the commitment of our entire nation and its resources to ensure that outcome.

everthing else is a serious miscalculation imo


Ron Paul espoused similar principles along with having a sound currency, both ideas are not popular with the masses regradless of their political persuasion.

but I'm convinced the right decisions don't necessarily appease everyone up to and including the majority of people.

Obama's own intel chief admitted that we got valuable intel we hadn't previously obtained by waterboarding the sheikh and two others. Confirming what was widely reported during the Bush administration. Again, you refuse to answer the real world question, based on what was reported by the people in a postion to know, and you make up a silly hypothet.


If you don't believe the current or former intel people, then treat it as a hypothet....ASSUME that the current and former CIA bosses are not lying (I know that's hard since you assume terrorist tell the truth and Americans lie). If that is true, would it be OK that they waterboarded the sheikh, or would it be better if they gave him a smoke and cable TV, and the innocent victims died. Which do you pick? Because that's the real world choice the men in the arena have to make.

Whimpering and pillow biting are not on the option list.....well, they didn't use to be, maybe they are now.

Trust me AK, if I didn't fear our govt so much, I'd probably be on the other side of this argument(within specified parameters).

Extremely hypothetical? ... NO attacks since 9/11. Think they haven't wanted to or tried? Cheney, whom I'm sure you think is just a big liar, has called for the release of the RESULTS of the interrogations. Funny how that hasn't happened yet. Perhaps an inconvenient truth is there?

The only extremism here is your desperate attempts to win an argument you are clearly losing.

One day when my older daughter was about five years old, she was squatting on the sidewalk smashing ants on the concrete with the palm of her hand. The nineteen-year-old daughter of friends lit into her for her "cruelty." I pointed-out to the older girl that
� Ants aren't the peers of people, thus not due comparable compassion.
� Viciously scolding a preschool child is more cruel than slapping ants.
� The older girl was more concerned with what she felt than what the younger girl and the ants felt.

I see several perfect parallels in some of the posts above.

[/quote]

I'm a barbarian in some matters, if they cut the head off one of ours, we incinerate 10,000 of them.

[/quote]

That's exactly how I feel. Set one bomb off in our country and we destroy yours.

Hypothetical question, you mean? Of course I still oppose it.

If you're a Constitutionalist, it's obvious that the federal government has no delegated power to do such a thing.

If you're not, it's equally obvious that a State can have no just responsibility to keep its subjects safe.

And even if you don't care about the Constitution one way or the other, it's obvious that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and his buddies are creations of the US federal State and its foreign policy: the State has been completely discredited in its handling of the situation, and WHATEVER it proposes (other than getting entirely out of the way) is most probably wrong.


America didn't waterboard anybody: the State claiming coercive power over Americans--and apparently over the rest of the world as well--did. And as you know, the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution to which that State laughably pretends to subject itself makes no exception for "boss terrorists."

I have absolutely no problem with that.

right...OK, the anarchist position is duly noted, B.

yes, you do, or else you're making up your waterboarding position.

you can't logically support the random killing of thousands of innocents by the US, but get your panties in a wad about briefly inconveniencing a terrorist kingpin to stop murder plots.

it is a classic liberal dodge to support some
war or course of action that will never be an option, but oppose any real world war or tactic that is.


liberals always support some other hypothetical war.....not the one under consideration in the real world.

I hope it's clear to you that my objection to State torture has nothing to with sympathy for terrorists or what they do or don't deserve. (As a matter of fact, it's always the pro-torture folks who bring the word "deserve" into the argument, as though torture were being used as a form of punishment or retaliation, which the torturers claim it is not.) My objection is merely to a State--any State--that tortures people, for any reason, regardless of what they may have done or what information they may have or what the percentage of certainty on those "mays" is.

Many people here simply don't have the horsepower to make the distinction, so I don't expect it of them: but you do.

Dear Brother, you have no idea how fervently I wish that your wisdom and judgement were as powerful as your intelligence.

Lot of smart folks on this site, but I am not sure that I have ever read a post by Ken Howell that I found flawed. My hat is off to you sir, my hope is that I retain a fraction of your clarity when/if I reach your age.

One more good soul whom I've managed to fool!

After you've seen Hitchens, if you can stomach it, take a look at real torture. Nick Berg http://www.annoy.com/sectionless/doc.html?DocumentID=100614

g

Thanks. Do go on...

A fat raven perched on the stub of a low limb of the ponderosa a few yards from the back door of my study. His cawing finally got to me � not because it was loud but because it continued with the unceasing, invariably precise consistent rhythm of a faucet drip or a metronome set to its slowest.

I'd already gotten into trouble when a neighbor reported me for using a pellet pistol to dislodge the kids' badminton shuttlecock from high in another back-yard tree, so I certainly didn't intend to pop a primer to shush that cussed raven. From inside my study, with the back door cracked barely ajar, I let him have it in the breast with a BB from a Red Ryder carbine.

He stopped cawing.

In obvious surprise, he looked down at his breast and shook himself hard. The bright sunlight glinted on the shiny new copper BB that he shook out of his breast feathers.

Then he went back to cawing as if nothing had happened.

Exactly.

Me either.

Thanks 1ak, I'll gladly accept that offer.

Sometimes I get really disgusted with the drivel that is passed off as "truth", and I can't stand it anymore. I suppose that I should be more tolerant, but I hate hearing people prate about rights and how they've been violated, especially when it pertains to enemy combatants, who if captured in other conflicts, would have been shot out of hand, not kept in better style than much of our military.

To those such as Lodiman/girliman and his ilk, all I can say it is easy to protest and accuse someone of performing a heinous act, when better men are protecting your ability to do so. If you want to be courageous, why not go to Afghanistan, Pakistan, or any country in the ME, and protest over there. Then I think you will get a taste of what real torture is.

It's kinda sweet you two are equally confused.

Is it your contention that if you oppose your government assuming the power to torture you must also be against an overwhelming military retaliation when your nation is attacked? Maybe you could explain how those two positions are inconsistent.

Not really, muslems have been doing unpleasant things to people as well as the conquering by the sword bit for quite some time.
Some clerics have stated that our immoral lifestyle is why they hate us.
So, should the US design both it's foreign policy AND internal policies to make the muzzies stop killing us?
They really don't need a reason to hate, but they find one or another.

They may hate us for not being Muslim, but the only reason they're willing to attack us with suicide tactics is because we made a long time habit of messing with the internal politics of their nations.

...and...?

Plus one.

Post hoc,ergo propter hoc?

Riiiight, that's why the Barbary Pirates kidnapped Americans. Foriegn policy. Prolly Bush's fault.
That's why immans IN AMERICA are calling for shiria law.
Why they have never done anything w/o proper provocation.
They are a violent religious group admittedly bent on putting the entire world under the boot of allah.
Europe has done far more meddeling in the affairs of the middle east, heck Churchill drew the damn map, yet we hear the cries of "Death to America".
And yes, about 25% of muzzies are 'radiacl', what ever that's supposed to mean. That's a lot.

I feel that Obama new method of with holding ice cream, The big screen TV, and no more radical chanting after dark, is far crueler than water boarding.

I really do prefer the old time Mexican police method of interrogation. The orange sods pop up the nose while being strapped to a chair. Perfect for the sinus sufferer.

Some folks never wondered why Mexican police departments had cases of bottled orange soda pop, stack all over the floors.

And Satan seduced Eve because God had been mean to him.

Sheesh

� I didn't shoot any more BBs at him.

� I don't still have that old Red Ryder carbine or any BBs.

I see.

I thought it would turn out to be a parable, with a message.

Classic but a goodie.

Death to America

It is.

I'm afraid that, regardless of your opinion of my intelligence, I'm not smart enough to extract your meaning without a little more explicitness.

It's a conspiracy of epic proportions.

Olbermann is a pencildick and Hannity is a windbag idiot.

The world would be better off if they met and flogged each other to their respective demises with Louisville Slugger baseball bats.

In fact,...I'll pay for the bats.

Just give me a mailing address and the big brown truck from UPS will be there shortly.

If dueling were legal?
Politeness might just flourish.
At least a few loudmouths would find out they couldn't shoot as well as they thought.
Hamilton got his

Thats right remember when the invaded and killed Muslims pagan Slavs, Jews, Russian and Greek Orthodox Christians, Mongols, Cathars, Hussites, Waldensians, Old Prussians, and political enemies of the popes?
No wait that wasnt the Muslims, it was the Christians...
How about then Islam from the 12th-16th century used torture and murder to kill off political opponants and gain land holdings. yeah, that was unpleasant.
No.
that was the christians again.
UH!
Oh, Oh...
how about the time that the slaughtered all those American Indians and ran them off thier land AFTER after finding gold in N.GA, SC and NC. Even though they had signed peace agreements and ...
No that wasnt the Muslims either.
Salem Witch trials?
WWI?
WWII?
No...?

you guys who excuse and explain Muslim violence because we messed with their internal affairs.....yeah, and we certaily did...introducing concepts like sanitation, vaccinations, women's rights, voting, clean water...all those evil western things.....but you totally miss the point that they've been at this since the Moslem "religion"....death cult, really....was invented by the charismatic pedophile sadist Mohammed.


blame it on the Crusaders, I guess. But hundreds of years before the Crusades, the Muslim armies were butchering their way across southwest Asia and Africa. Those folks certainly hadn't interfered in Muslim affairs.

so what is the point of that, ringworm?


the muzzies are the ones doing the damage today.....yes, Europe was really a nasty place during the wars of religion. But that was....uh....four hundred years ago.

another pathetic attempt at moral equivalence...as if the people working in the WTC are fair game because, like, Christians fought religious wars four centuries ago, or cowboys were mean to Indians.

jeez, imagine the ratings for that!

At least Mohammed married a female and didnt poke some little boy in his kiester.

unlike the pedophilic catholic church representatives...

The Los Angeles Archdiocese July 15 announced the largest church settlement of sexual abuse lawsuits to date, agreeing to pay more than 500 alleged victims a total of $660 million.


AUSTRIA - 1995 - The archbishop of Vienna, Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer, was forced to retire after allegations that he had molested a schoolboy 20 years earlier.

- July 2004 - Austrian News magazine Profil ran pictures of priests kissing and groping seminarians studying for the priesthood at a Roman Catholic seminary in the St. Poelten diocese.

BRITAIN - July 2000 - The head of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales, Archbishop Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, acknowledged he had made a mistake while in a previous post in the 1980s by allowing a pedophile to continue working as a priest. The priest at the center of the controversy, Father Michael Hill, was jailed in 1997 for abusing nine boys over a 20-year period.

FRANCE - March 2000 - A court sentenced Abbot Jean-Lucien Maurel to 10 years in prison for raping and sexually abusing three boys. The assaults dated to 1994-96, when Maurel was head of a school in the southern French department of Aveyron.

IRELAND - April 2002 - Brendan Comiskey, one of Ireland's best-known priests, resigned as Bishop of Ferns over the way he had dealt with allegations of sexual abuse against a priest of his diocese, Father Sean Fortune. Fortune committed suicide in 1999 while facing 66 charges of sexual abuse.

POLAND - March 2002 - Archbishop Juliusz Paetz quit following accusations, which he denied, of sexually molesting young priests.

THE UNITED STATES - December 2002 - Boston's Cardinal Bernard Law, the most senior Roman Catholic official in the United States, resigned over his handling of clergy sexual abuse.

- June 2002 - The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops directed each diocese to promptly investigate all allegations of sexual abuse. "When even a single act of sexual abuse of a minor by a priest or deacon is admitted or is established after an appropriate process in accordance with canon law, the offending priest or deacon will be removed permanently from ecclesiastical ministry, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, if the case so warrants," the bishops said.

- September 2003 - Boston Archdiocese agreed to pay up to $85 million to settle lawsuits filed by hundreds of people who say they were sexually abused by clergy.

- February 2004 - Independent researchers commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops issued a report on alleged priestly sexual abuse of children in the United States.

A total of 10,667 people accused priests of child sexual abuse from 1950 through 2002

your fascination with all things homo is a continuing source of amusement to the board, ringworm, but.....again, so what?


some Catholic priests are pervs, but I haven't seen the padres flying planes into our buildings or blowing themselves up in front of synagogues and mosques.

the bedwetters' never ending quest to minimize the crimes of our enemies and postulate some sort of moral equivalence between their atrocities and our self-defense is one of the stranger things about this Long War. Of course, they did the same thing with the commies.

The Greeks had slaves, the Romans, Persians, Chinese did too, why with all the historical wrongs I guess anything done by anybody is excused.
Right now, in today's news what do you think when you read the headline, "School girls beheaded..."
Who would you guess did it. Or "School girls killed by bomb at school". Guess who?
Who danced in the streets on 9/11? Gotta clue?

no, he doesn't

Why don't we water board Obama and get him to say outright what his real plan for America is.

Omniscient folks don't need clues.

why is ""School girls beheaded..." so much worse than "California woman accused in the rape and murder of 8-year-old"
because shes a christian? a sunday school teacher? oh, she will repent and say the devil made her do it and you'll forgive her.
I guess "School girls killed by bomb at school" bothers you more than "Mom kills son then self"...
"'God's turned me into the Anti-Christ... I'm a good person, but the Devil and God turned me into the worst person in the world. I'm so ashamed. And I'm so afraid. And I'll pay forever and ever.'"

When your partners in christ go about killing and rapeing its OK but when a bunch of camel jockeys do it the worlds coming to an end, right?
You guys are just tryin' to create what you think is armagedon... some self fulfilling prophesy that has been wrongfully interpreted by preachers and TV evangalist and nostradamus freaks. you think that the END OF THE WORLD is coming and your gonna be swept up into the clouds to live with cheesits.
So everybody else is the enemy, right?

First off you are assuming I'm a Christian. I'm not.
You are excusing one act because of another.
Romans killed my ancestors, do I now have cart blanche to kill Italians?
Ya so some crazy lady kills her kid, crazy lady in Texas drowned hers, one in SC drove hers off into a lake.
I'm more concerned with millions of camel jockeys(your term) who
vow to kill Americans, of which I am one.



No, you miss the point, the ones jumping up and down screaming "Death to America", just them. Specifically, just them.

ringworm....appropriate handle BTW....if you were as stupid as you argue you couldn't turn on a computer, so I assume this is posing.


all societies have deviance and crime....but only a total idiot can't distinguish between the criminal conduct by individuals that is condemned and punished in a western society, and the murderous, sadistic, and suicidal conduct that is praised, rewarded and encouraged in Muslim society.

I think I might make an exception on my moral absolutism just for this one instance.

+1

Watch the Nick Berg video, and you might make a few more.

makes me sick that we did not do more of it. Saddens me that folks are upset that we did it at all.
We have way too many folks these days that think America is Disney World, ya know?
We are in a fight for our very survival. A little waterboarding done to keep Americans from being killed is well worth it.

I don't get here as often as I'd like, so maybe I missed it.

Did some of the members here actually condone the rape and murder of that young girl, or the pedophilia of a few priests? I must have missed it, because I always figured the big difference between us and them, religiously, was that most professing Christians condemn that activity, while most muslims accept, or even justify, their barbarity as part of the religion.

If some here have tried to justify it, could you show me a post. Or are you just mad about something else?

For those who are disturbed by "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques" or worried that the "State" has usurped some authority that it shoudn't have, all I can say is that sometimes............ a picture is worth a thousand words!

[color:#FF0000] [b]CLICK HERE[/b][/color]

I'm starting to think ringworm might have been an altar boy once upon a time, and it weren't a good experience for him.


I can get a guy not buying in, but it seems to set off something visceral in him for folks that do.


hopin that ain't it, but just don't get what gets a guy so excitable about a bunch of folk getting together once a week to sing off key.

please site the study you referenced that shows "most muslim" justify beheadings.

Works for me.

I wouldn't have asked "where's the girl" more than twice!

Too true.

So I went and looked, I found this from Calgary Sun.



Only 12%. No problem, that only adds up to 84000.
Use the 12% as a baseline and extrapolate that with the 1.2 Billion Muslims world wide.

I didn't "site" a study; I said "I always figured". I also said they accept, or even justify, (with the emphasis on accept) barbarity.

Based on my own observations; I have never heard an imam condemn a beheading. I have seen footage of public executions in muslim countries of rape victims being stoned for "adultery". I have heard of fatahs issued against folks who speak out about the barbarity of islam. I have seen muslims dancing in the street after horrific murders of large numbers of civilians. I have seen interviews of the mothers of suicide bombers hailing their children for killing infidels.

What I have also seen is the large numbers of Christians who have condemned the rape and/or murder of children. Most Christians I heard condemned the murders of abortion doctors. Most Christians I know give all they can afford to help the victims of natural disasters, even in muslim countries.

You keep railing against the faults of Christianity, by pointing out the faults of individuals, or the atrocities of centuries long past. And you try to equate that to modern islam, which has vowed to destroy our country, and kill infidels wherever they find them. Armageddon or no, if they succeed it will be the end of all the civilization we have created in the last 500 years. And a middle-ages economy will never produce enough for our children to pay off the interest on the national debt.

Again, I was just asking you to point out the members here who have advocated the rape and murder of children. Do you have that info, or are you just mad about something else?

........And Jorge asked for Talisker with his water

........Pugs wanted more hops and crystal malt in the recipe

.........Les?

I wanted it straight!

I just choked and sputtered. Bad water.

Choked ain't the word that came to mind for me.

IOW, I think, "cite the site," etc � the grand ol' Snopes dodge � if you can't cite a specific published account of it, it didn't happen and isn't so.

Never mind that beheadings are known to be public events in some muslim countries � or that several beheadings of innocent foreign infidels have been reported in the news for several years now. If you can't cite a specific report of any of 'em, none of 'em happened.

Just get some clotrimazole ointment, rub it on the affected area, and the ringworm fungus will disappear.

The facts are that it was only done three times and that it worked. The head of the CIA (appointed by Clinton) and the person in charge of the interragation said that we got valuable information from it. We stopped an attack aimed at blowing up a bridge in NY, NY and an plan to fly an airplain into a building in LA, CA. We got more information from the interigation program than all other sources combined.

Further more, it is not torture. We use water boarding to train our pilots to resist interrogation when captured and we would not torture out own troops. While it is uncomfortable there it no damage or pain from water boarding. The left just use that charge as an attack on Republicans and conservatives.

I've never been "water-boarded," but I've run out of air in deeper water than I had any business in, with no help close. So yes, I think that I know what real panic is, what desperation is, and what it's like to fight panic while I'm struggling to survive. Water-boarding doesn't seem � to me � to be close to as bad.

And I've been mistreated worse by family members and in-laws.

These attacks on O'Rielly and Hannity are the results of trolls, agents of the evil left. The posters are following the lefts adjenda to discredit Fox News because it is fair and balanced and the only place where thier opposition gets a fair hearing.

I could respect those that objected to a real mistake or error that Fox News made. They dont do that though. Instead they either make up false charged or use non-specific unprovable charges without any evidence. Just as the Nazis lied their way into power, Obamas fascist supporters are doing the same.

Fox News is the just about the only responsible journalists left in our country. They almost always have opposing viewpoints and fairly allow each side to present their views. For example, Bill O'Rielly interviewed Obama before the election and he was tough, but fair and largely positive. How could he have done that if the leftist charges are to be believed ?

NBC, CSNBC, CNN, ABC, CBS and PBS are not journalists. They are propaganda agents for the Democrats and other fascists socialists. They have "a warm feeling running down their legs" for our extreme fascist left. They don't provide the otherside with a fair opportunity to present their views.

Only someone who has not watched FOX NEWS or is one of the loyal storm troopers for the socialists democrats could make these dishonest charges.

Fox it the only news channel I'll watch. My problems with the two you mentioned have to do with the fact that they are left of myself politically speaking, but Fox is the best (least bad??) news available on TV and I will not watch any of the other leftist crap that's out there. The Fox News regular that's closest to myself politically is Judge Andrew Napolitano. Glen Beck and I pretty much only part company on the torture issue.

Why do liberals think it would be a good idea to waterboard Hannity for the sake of charity and not to be done for sake of saving lives.

Doc

I agree with Michael Savage in believing that liberalism is a mental health issue.

Hatred of the right comes to mind. That, and the torture thing is only lip service. If one of "theirs" had authorized it, it would have been just fine even noble.

Revenge

Bingo. They're also only against the war because of which party it's associated with. Had Clinton started it, it would be thought by them the noblest war effort since that of the allies in WWII.

So since we know and agree that they hate conservative mindset, and are hypocritical and liars at will for their sleazy "causes" and issues, what is to be done with them?

Let's torture them.

Pinwheel! Two bullets in the same hole!

Right on Brother! Our torture techniquess dont kill or mame the individual, and these weak kneed weenies think it is just terrible. I suspect they voted for Obama also.

no, you didnt. you said "I always figured the big difference between us and them, religiously, was that most professing Christians condemn that activity, while most muslims accept, or even justify, their barbarity as part of the religion."
I had my next door neighbor read that and she's a HS english teacher. your "i always figured" statement is applicable to "the big difference between". meaning the part you figured was the difference. you went on to state that the majority supported terrorism and the majority clearly do not support it. even by a great stretch of the imagination you are wrong.
#2 your full of sh1t.

Thanks for the lesson, perfessor. Maybe you could have your neighbor explain the part where I asked you which members have posted anything condoning the actions done by any of the Chrstians in your posts. She's probably at school now, so I reckon I'll have to wait for her to get home to explain it to you.

Maybe, while she's at it, she could explain to you the difference between "barbarity" and "terrorism". Or better yet, just give me her e-mail, and I'll run all my posts by her first, so she can edit them to your level of understanding.

not that facts matter to ringworm, but here's a two year old symposium from NR discussing polls which then showed dropping support for suicide bombings.....almost certainly because that was at the height of the terror bombings in Iraq which were killing mostly Muslim civilians. Killing infidels, not such a big problem.

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTg1M2E0Y2E5ZjY2NmNlZDdlZjk5YTgxZGU1YTU5OTU=


the fact that many muslim clerics openly support the murder of innocents is telling.....and many more do it less clearly but just as effectively.

Ersatz Christian bodies and individual Christians have committed multiple atrocities and single felonies for centuries � but never at God's direction or with His approval or applause.

My big question for ringworm is where anyone here has shown support for the Christians who don't live up to the ideals of Christianity. I doubt it has happened, because a thread like that would go on for months, with lots of flaming, and a whole batch of new insults I could use in my daily life. But the way ringworm keeps mentioning those things, and compares them to the atrocities (check with your neighbor for the definition) of modern day muslims, leads me to believe he has seen such a thread. I just want him to tell me where it is.

P.S. I had my daughter, who is a HS English student read my previous post, and she understood exactly what I was saying.

P.P.S Ken, I might add without the approval or applause of most Christians, as well.

So when is Hannity going to shut Olbermann up and show him how harmless waterboarding is?


Or maybe better yet, we could have an Olbermann/Hannity waterboarding shoot off.


I'd think they're both just dumb enough to fall for it.

I wish he would have made me that offer when I was waterboarded in SERE school in the Navy in '73. I made it almost 10 minutes.

How come when we had to do it, it was training, and when we do it to the bad guys it's torture? Never could figure that one out.

Simple.

Now militarians are the dangerous bad guys, and those po' li'l sweet terrorists need all the sympathy and protection that they can get.

I'd like to see Oberman and Hannity in the octagon with no referee.