Just got word of yet another catastrophic failure of a Mk V action with same maker's factory ammo.

In one case, the bolt blew out the back. In this case, the guts of the bolt blew out the back. BAD!

Shooter is crippled for life but lucky to be alive.

Do you know of any other such failure? I'd appreciate details.

I've only heard second hand stories of catastrophic failures, but I have seen case failures and blown primers with factory ammo in Weatherby Mark V's during the 1970's when I was a rangemaster.

There was a recent thread about a fellow who had a 300 MkV set the lugs back using factory ammo, but he admitted he was a long range shooter who also handloaded with this gun. He claimed his non- Weatherby authorized gunsmith determined he actually stretched the action.

Last he posted, actually Weatherby posted, they received the gun back and were going to allow the owner to decide if he would tell us if it was a Weatherby issue, or shooter issue.

This was a custom built rebarreled long range rifle, and the gunsmith who built it said it was stretched. Many readers , through his disclosures, determined from Shooter he had no reason to believe the action was stretched and it well could be a improperly headspaced / overload causing his issues.

Allen

In all the Mk V failures that I know of, handloads had never been used � only factory ammo.

Aren't Weatherby factory loads actually loaded hot and leave little room for any rifle structural weakness?
g

Holy Crud!! I have two Mk V rifles, 1) an ultra-light in .30-06 and 2) a factory custom, black stainless, Fibermark in .280 Remington (7mm Express). Not sure I want to keep them now.

get a helmet.

With a steel face mask.

What rifles are these in ?? the old Sauer actions, or the newer Japanese actions?? i'm asking because i have a older German built mark 5 in 300. Don

Be careful Hawk. Probably a once in a blue moon occurance, but if your luck is like mine...

No Light Magnum loads in those two, at any rate, that's for sure.

I like those rifles. I don't own one though.

How common is this? 5 out of 1 million?

Any common denominators to the failures? caliber, steel used, place of manufacture?

JM.

Bet you didn't know you could develope a flinch over the interent!

Exactly.

You learn something new every day!

I've got a Mark V 300 and ain't one little bit skeered to shoot her, with factory ammo or my own loads.

Hmmm...I always thought the Mark V was THE strongest action, with those nine locking lugs. Least that's what they bragged for years. Metallurgical problems? Sure would be interesting to see the parts, although I suspect several lawyers are guarding them.

Marc,

Can I have your guns and hunting gear if something were to happen?

Hmmmm alway liked the ballistics of the .270 Weatherby. Maybe I can now get a deal on one, from somebody.

she will sell you her's for a good price.

Yuck, poor thing. She one of the Mark V victims?

You can have the blown up Mark V . BTW I shoot recurves to, you would like mine.

Odds are greater I'll be eaten by a shark while getting struck by lightning.

Mossberg looks with a Weatherby pedigree?

Yep, I know. That was the scoop years ago when I bought them.

Funny I never heard that about the 788.

Not bashing, I have a Mk V.

The Mark V has 9 small and thin lugs (magnum chamberings) and 6 lugs (standard chamberings). They have decent surface contact area in the receiver, but I've always wondered whether the shear area is enough.

I would imagine how well the lugs mate with the action recess would be the determining factor.

You can have two larger lugs, in relation, that mate perfectly and have far more surface area than nine that are poorly mated.

QC is king in this type of deal.

I don't see letting high pressure stressed action parts "getting a run at one another" being a good idea.

That is pure armchair theory on my part, much like putting a long squishy recoil pad on a serious rifle as being a big mistake.

Long story longer. I recommend to anyone that has doubts about the Mark V read Stuart Otteson's Books "The Bolt Action". These are the best I know form and engineering stand point books that have ever been placed in print. I personally do not care for any push feed action for hunting, but will admit that for strength some of these actions have it all over the CFR actions that many of us love for hunting. They (some of them) can be made much more accurate than any CRF action in this world. I just don't care to own any for hunting.

I can relate one Weatherby ammo and factory rifle failure of my own knowledge and research into the events and I might say due to my own efforts the avoidance of a law suit of the Company I was employed by at the time.

We at that time period were the largest Weatherby dealer in the USA. We out sold all other dealers by a wide margin. The year we had the then brand new Weatherby Vanguards for sell, we did a large volume business.

During the first sells of this Vanguard rifle they were chambered for the .300 Winchester ctg and not for the .300 Weatherby ctg.

I had brought to me in the gun shop a rifle and a story. It seems the customer bough a Vanguard rifle one day and returned two weeks later and bought a box of ammo. He told the clerk that he had bought a Weatherby .300 just two weeks before in the same shop and needed a box of ammo to test fire the rifle. Liam and his side kick Elmer took the rifle out to there neighborhood shooting/dump and after preliminary trials finding a piece of short 2x4 to use as a chambering assist devise proceeded to chamber the .300 Weatherby ctg in the .300 Winchester chamber. It did take some effort on the twosomes part but seeing as how the rifle was new and everybody knows how new stuff can be, they thought nothing of the effort (probably thinking it would loosen up with use) First shot out of the box Liam reflecting on the effort thought it best to let his best buddy Elmer to take the honor of the first shot. I don't know how long the two intrepid sports fans spent finding that vary same 2X4 to help easy the effort of opening and in preparation for that vary important second shot, never the less the effort was soon rewarded and now Liam was in full readiness for that all important second shot.

Unfortunately the Gods of steel and design no longer smiled on their efforts and the rifle went through rather sudden changes. The stock made of wood in those day came apart in several pieces and the floor plate/trigger guard found are intrepid friend Liam's forearm. Liam and Elmer after reflection gathered up the as sundry pieces of the add for mentioned rifle and directly returned in from the dump, looking for blood and the dumb folks that sold him the bad Weatherby rifle.

They were in a rather peculiar position of being unable to get the bolt open to show the store owner the bad offending Weatherby ctg that was the cause of all this misfortune as they had lost the ejected 2X4 and was unable to open the bolt. I had no difficulty what so ever opening said bolt mounted in a stout bench vise and with the manly use of a six foot cheater bar on the bolt handle. Surprise of all, melted in the bolt face of said action was melted the the fact that he did use a Weatherby ctg in a .300 Winchester chambered rifle.


As to the Mark V, sure are a lot of shooters that shoot some mighty hot BR stuff through that action and have done so for a great many years.

I doubt seriously that you'll have any issues in those calibers.

MM

intrepid fools, but fools none the less!

Yeah, that's comforting, but it's hard to get that picture out of my head.

I think you'll be OK. Wanna buy my .340? It'll be sitting in a nice McMillan as soon as it shows up.

Not that I'd know much about Metalurgy,.......or Metal Fatigue,
or machining
or Chit,.....from bean dip.

when only 2 - 2 1/2 lugs outta' 9 show a bearing surface, that established with old school "Prussian Blue", and for us younger types ,"Dykem",........the basic mechanism of failure looks obvious.

The lugs give up 1 or 2 at a time,.....when there's only a couple left,

.............things go bad.

Rocket Science ?

NOT

GTC

And therein lies the problem.........I don't have or want any Wby's but if I did, I'd definitely be checking lug contact & headspace.

MM

A while back I was talking to a well know smith and action maker about action strengths and I beleive he said the bolt on a Weatherby would come out of the rifle at 115000 psi!

The Remmy 700/721/722/725 have always been considered stronger than the Mk 5. The strongest non-custom action is supposedly the forged Japanese Arisaka.

However, on ANY modern bolt rifle the barrel is supposed to bulge/burst before the action gives. IIRC, I think barrels are designed to fail around 135,000 PSI and actions around 200,000 PSI.

Of course, if there is an obstruction just forward of the bolt, then you're in trouble no matter what you shoot.

Based on velocity, I've never seen any Weatherby factory ammo that would even come close to that.

My weak push feed M70, which shows about 70% lug contact, digests 130gr .270 Roy loads, of the factory and handloaded guise, that reach 3500fps with ease.

Yeah, I think they are hot. I'd guess Weatherby does also, when you look at the down-speeding of factory loads over the years

Dangerous? I'm not convinced of that yet.

That said, I will defer to Mr. Howell's greater experience should rifles start blowing up regularly.

Any 3-4 of the touted " 9 locking lugs" can be failed,.....without showing any visual sign.

You're not going to "pop" them off during routine cleaning and maintenance,.......

I have seperated a few "Locking Lugs" with a brisk twist of a screwdriver.( Don't Panic, most of these "Sporters" built on captured Nazi Rifles are but a whisker stronger)

........Roy Weatherby was a lot better promoter, than engineer.

I think that I'd best point out what Doc seems to be getting at,
is that the fundamental concept of having "9 Locking Lugs" bearing, simultaneously,.....is really a dreamy sorta' engineering marvel, as opposed to someting do-able.

Cryin' out loud, it's hard enough to get 2 or 3 to bear,......fully loaded.

Brand Loyalty be damned,....it's a weak, and coincidentally VERY easily Manufactured action design.

Pardon me all to hell placing longevity , and strength over the ease of Corporate opperations.


GTC

Most cartridges are in the 55000-65000 psi range I believe,not real sure where weatherby tops out at!

So in essence we don't really know what hppened, or truly caused this failure, we can only conjecture. I had a Mark V for many years in 7MM Wby. I wore the barrel out at about 2800 rounds. It was the best rifle I've ever owned. Made in Japan, blued synthetic model. Remember a few years ago when a Sako blew up in someone's face? Where I lived at the time ALL Sako and Tikka's were recalled. That burp did not stopped many folks from using them, or extolling their virtues here on the "fire." I'm not convinced the Mark V is a piece of junk at this point anyway, and if I could afford one right now I would buy one and use it without hesitation.

add 10,000 PSI on his brag

GTC

Wouldn't suprise me,that extra velocity doesn't come free!!

I'm not saying we should not know, just that it seems overblown to label a brand as one that will fail. I'm not a big Weatherby fan, heck, I'd take a lowly M70 of any persuasion over a Mk V...and I do. I never did see a M70, in any config, in the .340...and I wanted one...and I have one.

Unless there is some validation of the factory ammo being an overload, I have a hard time with the accusations.

Federal "Weatherby" ammo, at least in the case of the .270, does not exceed .270 Win ammo.

I think something tends to be marginalized ( understanding that NO mud's being flang or flung at the poster, Ackleyfan) is thae actual ballistic event pressures in real world terms

65000 "PSI" = Thirty Two and One Half TONS, of pressure event, taking place right next to your head.

This "Magnumitis" craze is going to take out many more,.....before people smarten up to the fact that commercially built products FAIL.

Your blender fails,....you take it back to Sears,

Your Weatherby fails, your blended head gets scooped into a bucket.

GTC

I never agreed with (9) smallish locking lugs for the reasons already stated.

Theory vs. reality = blown up guns. Not saying that this is the cause, but it's why I don't own any.

I have always liked their guns and cartridges though.

JM.

How's the lockup on that BLR?

Isn't it the same thing?

I haven't heard of those rearrangin' folks faces.

Not the same thing at all. The lugs are in rows of 3 spaced down bolt body.

If you shear the front ones you have 2 more to knock off on each side before you get to eat the bolt.

That's after it breaks the teeth off of the lever cam and bottom of the bolt to get completely out.

I'm not attacking the rifle you enjoy, but it is the same QC nightmare that the Weatherby bolt is, isn't it? We all like what we like. I like leverguns too, often tempted by the BLR in a upnecked .308.

I liked my 788, just couldn't warm up to the looks.

I guess the bottom line from my viewpoint is: the design is only as good as the execution. I'd imagine we can agree on that.

I agree with your last statement.

But the design is far from being similar.

Dunno, I don't have one...have to rely on pictures.

I, particularly, love the folks who attack alloy receivers...in terms of longevity.

I'll give you a good deal on mine.

Mine has steel. Older Model 81. All my rifles have steel actions so I have never worried about that.

Best,

JM

The alloy ones lock up steel to steel, so you wouldn't have to worry about it either way.

Have you had a chance to handle one of your steel models and an alloy side by side, with reasonable optics in place?

I'm interested to hear about the balance of one vs. the other in a ready to use setup.

"...actually stretched the action." What exactly does that mean?

The headspace in the chamber was then too excessive to be shot or the actual receiver was stretched?

I own 3 Mark V's all in standard chambering, 7mm-08, 280 and 338-06, never had a problem and will not be getting rid of them anytime soon. Internet rumors need to be backed by facts. Was it the action, the ammo, etc...By the way, I handload for all of them, and never load over published data.

Hawk...if I thought I could get it over the border without hassle and the price is right...not interested in a 300 or a 340 by the way. As an aside, I handloaded all my ammo, never used any factory stuff, especially at $65.00 a box at that time.

If I understand the lug arrangement, nine isn't really an advantage. It's the same principal as the trick karate demonstration where several blocks of ice are stacked and broken. There's a space between each block. The karate chop only breaks one block. Kinetic energy breaks the rest of the blocks.

Weatherby rifles turned me off back in the day, when they were overly glossy, overly flamboyant, gaudy rifles that simply looked out of place in the hands of a hunter in the sticks in search of game. They were show pieces. Of course, the early ones were Mausers.

Dan

I've never owned a Mark V but wouldn't hesitate to buy one, If the price were right. Especially a .257 mag. in the Ultra Lightweight model. I certainly wouldn't be dissuaded by an internet post stating "I've received word"...second or third hand word of mouth? Or something somebody read on another forum?
A little more information would be a good thing.

Yes.....

The poster was VERY deceptive on his replies, even though he CLAIMED he had a 1000 yard match to shoot 2 months after the INCIDENT. He also claimed he was using factory ammo, I believe because weatherby may not back up his claims if they knew he was a 1000 yd shooter, which to me means he reloads......

Darned near everything in his post was suspicious, he said he had several weatherby's and his premis for this was "he is a loyal Wby guy, not a basher", but when I mentioned IMHO if he had several Wby's, he must surely have a backup, as his biggest gripe was Wby told him, once they received it, the Q had it sitting for a month before they could even look at it, let alone determine if his " nationally known gunsmith" who claimed it indeed was a stretched action was correct.

Just mentioned this as there are many ways a person can screw up a rimfire rifle, let alone centerfires which can be handloaded and screwed up from poor reloads. And there are idjuts out there who post how poorly Wby treated them, but with feedback one can assume the operator is usually the issue, the gun's failure may be a consequence of handloading/ mistakes. It is the BENCHREST SHOOTER" who thinks he couldn't have made a mistake that makes for good entertainment.....


Waiting patiently to see more from our good friend Mr Howell on more input. I am sure , if the blowup turns out to be correct, we all could learn from the failure analysis information.

And to the 9 lugs issue, surely most edjucated individuals could guess not all of the 9 need to fully support the cartridge's rearward movement at ignition to be stronger than 2 or 3 lugs, and indeed 2 lugs with full content could be stronger than 9 poorly fitted smaller lugs. In failure mode analysis, one would see that if lets say the 3 "good" lugs that support the initial load from the cartridge moving rearward can physically ( elastically) move rearward, until more contact from other lugs are made, which then add to the initial strength of the support. Movement of metal, below yield strength, is not a bad thing. Ed Weatherby's design gives a SAFETY FACTOR that other rifles do not have, and this is why the design is better than most bolt rifles, and has been proven to withstand higher pressures than I suspect ANY OTHER BOLT GUN in mass production.

His design has been proven, 9 perfect lugs are not needed, but create a bigger safety factor than other designs, considering good quality materials are employed.


Allen

BTW, My next probable purchase would be another ultralight in 25 caliber. Somehow I have an itch for a lighter 25-06 class gun than my 25-06 medium weight barreled Ruger tang safety that is a pretty heavy carry gun.

Don't hold your breath.

I've posted the notice just as I got it.

That's all that I'm going to do.

I have no interest in debating, persuading, or explaining.

Certainly not in blind opining.

I never buy into any story without the full facts.

Who - was injured
When - date of injury
Where - the place
What - were the injuries, what was the history
Why - was the cause claimed actually verified
How - how was it verified, how did the reporter double check claims, how can I double check reporter?

This thread has none of the above!

My view on this has been the same for many years. The MK5 action has been around since the 50's and from the outset has always been assigned the task of handling pretty much the most powerful cartridges available in any given bore size.

It's just a stretch for me to take an action that's been around that long that's spent that much time shooting bigger-than-average cartridges and assume it's not acquitted itself beyond any other reasonable expectation for something made by man and subject to failure. One almost wonders if the fact it's such a big deal when one seemingly does fail (and it's funny how often user error still seems to usually be in play) if it isn't almost a complement.

I've got an MK5 .340 and am not the least bit afraid of it. I don't know how much "better" it is than other actions but I've never seen any real world/non-anecdotal evidence to suggest it's worse.

I have 2 MK V rifles,I'll check my lugs again but they seem to have good contact. I have seen photos on Weatherby.dk where a fella stuck a barrel in the mud accidently and then fired the rifle days later and the barrel opened up like a bannana and the action was checked out ok. I find it unbelievable -this story I mean.

This thread is a reprise of an almost identical post several years ago. No hard data then either.

IF there was anything in it as a statistically valid, worrisome problem, we should expect to see several very visible repurcussions. The manufacturers and the distributors and sellers of the rifles and ammo would be tied up in court with dozens of product liability suits. And the gun hating media and the ambulance chasers we put in Congress would be in full cry to boot. Recalls would be inescapable. None of this has happened.

Of course, the UN paratroops have not landed on the South Lawn yet either, or have they?

I currently own no WBYs or WBY magnum rifles. One I did own proved to be a barrel eater but WBY replaced the barrel free because they said, on examination, it did not meet their standards. The experience was a draw.

1B

Yes it is easier to make a wild ass guess than to read the engorging reports about and action. Let me address one or two of the primary misconceptions about the current and previous action called the Mark V Weatherby.

(1) All nine lugs in contact. The reason it is not common for full contact is due to distortion in the heat treating process. It has nothing to do about the skill in machining. Machining is completed before heat treatment begins.

(2) Taken from all aspects of the different iterations of the evolution of the Mark V I believe from a design and function stand point the current Howa is far and wide the best built of all the 5 different production actions.

Let me impart a fact about the 9 lugs. The nine lugs were the result of the 59 degree bolt rotation. Does it make it twice as strong as a two lug design, not quite, but that's not where the action gets it real strength in the first place. Gas handling is of the first importance. The Weatherby design is hugely strong, but the trade off is in the heavy weight and the overall size.

Thanks Ken.

Just got off the airplane and get to read your reply.

Only question I can hope for an answer to, then, would be will you be able to give us the skinny of your "research" if others give you more information of other failures that you are gathering input from?

Just hoping your efforts can be shared with us in the future.

Allen

I already have a lot more, very reliable, very scary information that I can not divulge without betraying sworn confidences. I'll tell whatever I can � later � if I can do so without betraying confidences. That's why I have more reason than anybody else for wanting more input.

The unavoidable, undeniable general indications are two � some results of industry tests that I'm not supposed to know about �

� That some Mk V actions fail unpredictably (faulty manufacturing, not detectable before-hand).

� That some W'by factory ammo is 'way hotter than SAAMI specs.

(The key word is SOME, not ALL.)

Some of my information came from an anonymous source who wanted me to recommend a test lab for forensic examination of the failed rifle that horribly maimed and almost killed the shooter. I remember the details vividly but can not document 'em.

Some of my information came from the "shop" people who were loading W'by factory ammo on contract. They didn't appreciate the fact that their highly respected company's business people had signed a contract for loading drastically overly hot ammo.

Some of my information came from a good friend, ballistics tech at one of the SAAMI companies, whose job it was at the time to pressure-test (with modern test equipment) every brand and caliber and loading of ammo then being sold at retail in the U S. More than once, he mentioned the W'by ammo as being "worrisome," and finally gave me some hair-raising figures.

Some of my information came from a retired pilot, working as a range officer, who saw an apparently safe Mk V send zilch out the muzzle but nasty "shrapnel" into the shooter's eye.

It's damned uncomfortable to know what I know and to not be able to blaze it across the sky for all to see. (Even though I know that dyed-in-the-wool W'by-lovers could see it happen and still insist to themselves "That won't ever happen to me.")

Bottom line, FWIW � I'll never fire a Mk V with factory ammo and won't stand near anyone who's about to. One in a million � one in a billion � statistics don't mean much whnn that one is just a few inches from your face.

No, I've never seen one fail. Haven't seen all that many fired, for that matter, But when several people whom I know to be both knowledgeable and reliable relate essentially identical occurrences, I tend to accept what they're telling me as fact.

I've driven the major highways all over this continent for well over half a century without ever having a car catch fire. Does that fact guarantee that I never will have one catch fire?

I agree with DR. Howell. I own a MK5 in 30-378. While I believe the action is strong I WILL NEVER FIRE FACTORY LOADED AMMO AGAIN.

When I first bought it, I got 2 boxes of Weatherby ammo loaded with 180 grain Barnes X bullets. The first shot it blew the primer. I foolishly kept shooting thinking this was just a fluke. after the first box, I was sighted in and it actually shot very accurate. I chronographed 2 rounds out of the second box, I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was over 3500 fps!

upon opening the first box I had fired, there was three primers that had fallen out by just getting bounced around. all of the primers had blow-by, black around them.

I contacted Weatherby about it, they thought it may be the chamber in the gun, so I sent it back. they reported nothing wrong with it.I cant believe that ammo was loaded that hot.

I still shoot the gun, and it has been a very accurate rifle. But my hanloaded 180's leave the muzzle at 3410, not 3500+!

Ken, if the MK5 is as flawed as you lead on to be, I would like to know. or is it mostly factory Weatherby ammo?

while I like my Weatherby's,but I am not so loyal as to endanger myself.

Just got a PM about yet another failure that sent the shooter to the ICU. No details.

Thank you vry much for the information Ken.

And thank you for researching this. I eluded to my thoughts that some Factory wby ammo was overloaded in a recent thread I statred, but I specifically thought my memory was Wby ammo was hard to replicate the velocity it gives by handloading.

Not trying to draw out more in this thread, but I didn't get much, from how I read the replies, agreeing with what I thought was the common knowledge that Norma/ Wby ammo was hard to duplicate with reloading components available to the handloader.

Thank you

Allen

There is chance a remington 700,winchester 70,ruger 77 could blow up,there is a risk in driving your car. We can never get away from that. I have owned a bunch of mark V's and never had a problem. You can find that anything has had a problem before, it's just life.Driving to your favorite hunting spot is more dangerous than hunting itself,should we stay home??

All information, from any source, is debatable and in need of self-examination on how the information presented makes what you do with it up to you.

If you see in print: "a daisy bb gun caused a fatality", does the oddness of the initial headline mean you would ignore reading the story and determining on your own how YOU use the information, or do you read the story and use the information to help yourself in the future?

Every informative atricle has it's merits, some more than others. How you use what is read is up to you , silly or not.

I will keep handloading my MkV 300 wby, and hopefully gain knowledge from the information, if and when available, about accidents others may have experienced. There are many reloaders who have barely enough mechanical skills to do this type of operation safely, but few accidents occur.

Chicken little or no, you have the ability to use information to gain knowledge, if you choose to not do so, it is up to you to make that determination. Lessening the value of written information does nothing to help others safely enjoy firearms.

Allen

Modern pressure-testing instruments have revealed that the actual maximum pressures of typical "safe maximum" handloads run about 70,000�75,000 lb/sq in.for cartrisges that SAAMI rates as max at 60,000�63,000 lb/sq in.

Similar tests have shown that certain ammo factory-loaded on contract runs that high or higher.

Shooters keep shooting, and guns keep blowing-up.

Facts.

I don't know but I think I'd rather have a MK V than a pre 64 when pressures rocket that high.

Me too, for sure. I just did a google search looking for Mark V's blowing up and came up with nothing. If this was a significant issue wouldn't it pop up like crazy?? I can find alot of info on sako's blowing up and a few other manufacturers.

I found this on the net, very interesting reading.


Testing the Mark V Action
This fifth and final prototype action had been built with the help of
a newly-hired engineer, Fred Jennie. It was even more streamlined,
and also incorporated a new simplified trigger and safety mechanism
to reduce tooling and manufacturing costs.
Was this the safest action ever produced, as Weatherby claimed? Roy
thought that, finally, it was time to subject his new action to vigorous
performance tests. Built on the prototype action, a rifle in .300
Weatherby Magnum caliber was used for the tests. Prior to any firing,
careful measurements were taken of the diameter of the bolt face
housing, head space measurements were recorded, and all other
pertinent dimensions.
The first test firing was with a cartridge that had been loaded with
82 grains of 4350 DuPont powder, using the 180-gr. bullet. This load
gave an average breech pressure of 65,000 psi. After firing, there was
no sign of pressure and extraction was easy. The same 82-gr.load was
fired in the Mauser action and a slight sticking of the cartridge case
resulted. Four more loads with the powder charge being increased in
two-grain increments were prepared, each one using 4350 powder and
the 180-gr. bullet. After firing the 84-gr.load, there was still no sign of
pressure and no sticking of the cartridge case, even though the breech
pressure had been increased to almost 75,000 psi. When firing this
84-gr load in the Mauser action, it caused a blown primer and it was
almost an impossibility to extract the cartridge case.
When the load was increased to 86 grains in the Mark V, the
cartridge case began to show signs of pressure, but it still did not stick
and extracted easily. Breech pressures were 85,000 to 95,000 psi. A
measurement of this fired cartridge case showed that it had stretched
at the belt by .0005 inches. When the 88-gr.load was fired in the Mark
V with pressures in the neighborhood of 100,000 psi, there was a slight
sticking of the cartridge case making the bolt slightly difficult to open,
but the cartridge case could still be easily extracted. In measuring the
belt again, it had now swelled .002 of an inch, from .533 to .535.
For the final test the cartridge case was filled with powder, leveling
it off at the top. This was 90 grains of powder. Mter firing, the bolt was
difficult to open, but without exerting too much pressure it could be
opened and the case extracted. There were now extreme signs of
pressure on the case, but no gas had escaped back into the magazine
and the primers showed very slight signs of leaking. The belt of the
cartridge case still measured .535 inches. Mter this firing, a difference
between the outside diameter of the head of the bolt and the inside
diameter of the barrel of .004 inches (or .002 a side) was noted. Even
with this terrific overload, there was still no swelling or damage to any
part of the bolt, receiver or barrel. The head space was checked
between each test firing and at no time was there any change noted in
the head space.
Weatherby was extremely excited after these tests, and felt certain
that the Mark V would be the safest action of all time!
Some time later, after additional working models of this prototype
had been produced, one last experiment was made. A 180-gr. .30
caliber bullet was lodged in the throat of the barrel. A standard load of
78 grains of 4350 and the 180-gr. bullet was chambered and fired, with
the following results: both bullets traveled out the barrel, pressures
were tremendously high, the primer was pierced letting gases enter
the interior of the bolt, hitting the firing pin sleeve which acted as a
piston, loosening the bolt sleeve cap somewhat. The bolt was opened
by hand. The cartridge case remained in the chamber, but no problem
was involved in tapping it out with a steel rod. The case appeared to
be in very good condition with the exception of the primer being
pierced.
In checking the dimensions of the barrel and action, it was found
that the barrel in front of the receiver ring expanded from 1.147 inches
to 1.1496 inches. The diameter of the bolt head expanded from. 7178
to. 7190. Head space increased from .2163 to .2174. All other dimen-
sions remained the same as prior to the test.
This experiment was repeated 15 additional times. The severest test
was when a 220-gr. bullet was placed in the bore, and a standard
180-gr. round fired in back of it. On this particular firing, the head
diameter of the cartridge increased to .545 inches. It was also noted
after these additional IS firings that the head space was set back a mere
.001. This was truly the ultimate in tests for the strength and safety of
this remarkable new action.
__________________
skipper

My .340 has never fired anything other than handloads. This had always been a money issue as it gives me hives to pay $50 or more for a box of the "plain" Wby ammo, nevermind the premium bullet loads. I've only got few boxes of factory stuff I'd picked up here and there when found cheap, mostly for the brass. Now I'm almost considering just pulling the bullets.

To be honest it sounds to me like jacking the MKV action might be doing it wrong. If we're really talking out of spec ammo then the action takes 2nd place. If we widen our criteria to "guns blown up by foolish handloaders" the significance of the action used drops dramatically. If somebody held a gun to your head and handed you a 70K+ psi round and told you to fire it would you really feel that much safer with a Model 70 or 700? I wouldn't.

Ken, is there anything that points to any pattern in caliber, lot # or time frame with these ammo issue?

I had to post this one. Some kook -stuffed a 338 win mag in a 300 weatherby and fired it. Can you imagine the pressures encountered pushing a .338 bullet through a .308 rifled barrel?
Apparently the bullet came out the other end and there was slight damage to the bolt. No blow up in anyones face.
[IMG]http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr296/378Canuck/p1.jpg
[/IMG]

That last picture demonstrates a lot about there being shiny ejecter marks on case heads due to high pressure.

That one actually flowed back into the ejecter hole, so there is actually something to shiny marks from the ejecter being indicative of too high pressures.

Of course, the catch is we really don't know at what point the pressure becomes high enough to make an ejecter mark on the case.

The best info to get right now would be the name of the factory ammo that was being overloaded. Bad ammo isn't a rifle design issue.

If I had a blown rifle of any type my lawyer would deposition Dr. Howell post hast.

Personally if I had info like that I wouldn't wait one minute to get it out to the public, and I would hope the ammo company went the way of the sabre toothed tiger over the whole issue.

Those 9 small lugs are why I had my gunsmith laboriously lap all 9 into contact. It was a chore, and he made me pay for it, but I don't regret the expense at all...especially not now.

Greetings Ken, I trust you are doin well. I've owned Weatherbys all of my life, including German, Japanese and now American made. I've shot thousands or rounds through them, both factory and handloaded stuff, using published data, some from the old Weatherby Guide and some concocted on my own. I've used them in extreme heat (Africa 110 deg) and cold weather (down in the 20s). I've never had this type of catastrophic failure, but then again nothing is outside the realm of possibilty as virtually every action made I'm sure has had issues. I CAN however attest to hot factory ammo. A few years ago prior to a safari, I was pressed for time so I ordered several boxes of 180Xs (not TSXs)of the same lot number as they were very accurate in my rifle. A few weeks before going I was practicing with them ( same 300 I've owned since 2000 US made) and I ran into stuck bolt and popped primers. I contacted Weatherby and they wanted to see the rifle but I declined, but they did ask for the ammo back and they in turn sent me double the order with Nosler Partitions. Those worked great and I've taken over 15 head of game with it from AFrica to Maine. I hand load now exclusively, always use a chronograph and I keep my loads to around 3200- 3240 fps with no problems with great accuracy and no issues. jorge

To all,

This is the first that I have heard of significant problems with centerfire factory loads in any cartridge or rifle!

Is this news? I thought that I was up to date on this stuff!

"The sky is falling, the sky is falling, run for your lives": said Chicken Little!

I have never seen such disinformation by so many uninformed people as I have on this board. Back up what you infer with facts and proof or back off! I have been shooting for fifty years and handloading for over forty and I have NEVER!! heard of, seen or had any proof of a Weatherby action blowing up. Most of my friends are handloaders and shoot Weatherby's and none of them have ever been hurt. I hope that the next thing you clowns hear from are Weatherby's lawyers!

I'm so worried about about my Mark V I'm shooting it tomorrow. This is the internet so all of the rumors must be true . Not a single fact posted or found by google fu, it's all hear say.

LOL

Lawyers? So what was stated as slanderous, or did you even read the whole thread?

I suspect the ammo manufacturer, besides yourself, are the only one's even breaking a sweat.....

So I guess from your standpoint, RCBS, Redding, nolser, et-al should just quit selling stuff if this little blip would concern them, and the lawyer you have recommended Weatherby seek as council on this thread...LOL

Good points on the internet misinformation possibility. Anyone who reads ANYTHING written, let alone the internet and doesn't verify the information before acting on it, is a fool... especially those naysaying anything said here can't be true.....


Allen

\


That article about FRED JENNIE must have been around the 1960's. ROY WEATHERBY put out the design ritera around the middle 1950's and FRED JENNIE did all the design work and fabrication at WEATHERBY request.

Not to say you may not have gotten what you paid for, but it is a physical impossibility to have all nine lugs touching equally.

When two or more surfaces reside in parallel planes, there can only be one primary locator, or one lug or pair of lugs. The other lugs will simply be the secondary, or otherwise known as along for the ride.

It's just the math and engineering of it all, nothing more.

If the bolt or portions thereof ejected out the back of the rifle, then not only were pressures very high, but something else mechanically failed.

I once had a couple boxes of .25-06 factory ammo that were 300 fps shy of spec on velocity. I suppose if they make that kind of error, a different factory could also load some 300 fps to the high side.

Didn't Weatherbys used to have a long freebore, ahead of the chamber, to hold down pressures?

metal parts can fail unexpectedly for three reasons, under normal stress. Non-metallic inclusions (impurities), mechanical defects (voids or seams), or heat treating mistakes. Could be the brass case or the metal parts of the action.

Sounds like two or three things went wrong at once to cause this accident.

Edit to add, I looked at a lightweight Mark V with synthetic stock today, in .300 Winchester Mag. I still thought it was a pretty cool rifle.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear � ."

So is the nose job photo from the Weatherby accident or a domestic dispute? Looks like a bite more than an explosion/projectile thing.

Just curious.

He that have eye let him see. LOL

He that hath brain, let him inquire so he might learn.

You must be a preacher?LOL

Nah, just an inquisitive small but active mind.

I have an old browning that has nine engaging lugs as they call it, I have found it very strong, I hope they don't end up being weak.

The design is not new but borrowed from artillary canons.

With all due respect Mr. Howell some of this sounds more "French Connection" then fact. We have anaoymous sources that had opportunities to report overloaded cartridges that could potentially takes somebody's life and nothing is done. Then we have a range officer stating catastrophic failure where bullet never came out of the barrel and shrapnel in the eye. Why did the failure occur? Was there a blockage in the barrel? Wrong shell put into the gun? There are threads here and other forums showing failures in Brownings, Remingtons, Marlins etc which are from shooter error/blockages and not from action or design failure.

Yes. I am a Weatherby fan. Shot 2 of mine yesterday with handloads on the measley 6 lug action. I just can not believe if this was happening as stated, nothing was done.

Again, this is with all due respect to Ken Howell and not questioning creditability and will probably be lambasted for questioning this, but have a tough time on an internet thread defaming an American Gun Company without more facts.

The New Logic �

"It hasn't happened to me,"** therefore

� It won't happen to me.

� It hasn't happened.

One premise, two conclusions! Impressive!

**alternate premise � "I haven't seen it happen."
(same conclusions)

My birth was neither televised nor photographed.
No one has yet produced details to confirm the event.
No Campfire folk have seen me born.
Scopes and Google can't confirm my birth.
Therefore, I wasn't born, was I?

One premise, two conclusions! Impressive!
Yo
**alternate premise � "I haven't seen it happen."
(same conclusions)

My birth was neither televised nor photographed.
No one has yet produced details to confirm the event.
No Campfire folk have seen me born.
Scopes and Google can't confirm my birth.
Therefore, I wasn't born, was I? [/quote]

You could say the same for Jesus. Right?

Guys,

I'm not saying it did not happen but what are all the facts. Any action and rifle could fail but why? If from overloaded ammo, blockage in the barrel creating excessive pressure. Again, I'm not questioning Ken's creaditability, knowledge or I guess now exisistence just what caused the failures.

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong. I haven't paid much attention to wetherby over the years.

The Mark 5 and the Vanguard are two differant actions? The Vanguard is actually a Howa action?

They have that Vanguard for $400, one in 30-06 and another in 223 looks good to me. Opinions?

I'm unable to read your post. My eyes keep drifting to the left.

You need it full size




My wife would call her a dirty blond, as would I. Differant reasons I'sd think.

If she would quite with the ant-in-the-pants movement, we could see the Charger....

Yes, Weatherby markets the Howa , mauser based Vanguard, currently at $399 with synthetic stock. It is not the normal Weatherby style stock.

The Mark V is a much stronger, larger, large bolt diameter gun, 9 locking lugs on magnum , 6 lugs on non magnum calibers and they have the Weatherby trademark stock.

Allen

Having worked with and owned several over the years, I doubt if they even actually blew up. Would have to see the rifles.


Lefty C

how does the bolt blowing out the back "cripple" you?

Im sure you have a link to the news story that obviously was done on this, right?

Mr Howell,

I think the point is that the sources are all shadowy, unconfirmed and cloaked in secrecy. And there are no details of the actual failure events that show cause & effect.

As a longtime Ruger, Remington, Marlin, H&K, Browning, Weaherby shooter as well as a shooter of many other major manufacturers weapons over the years, I welcome any information alerting me to a possible safety problem with my equipment. I do however give a lot more weight to well documented information than I do to information sourced as:

{A well respected guy on the internet says a friend of his says something and another friend of his also said something similar, and he trusts those friends, so he believes it to be true, so it must be true.}

It reminds me of the stuff we all bemoan when CNN broadcasts quotes from unnamed and unconfirmed sources.

I don't necessarily disbelieve the information, I just don't have enough information to draw a reasonable conclusion. I would love to see some forensic evidence from the tragic events.

Certainly some must be available?

I thank you for the alert as to the possible problem.

Bigger and slower would work for me.

Well said. I want documented, empirical evidence not rumors and mythology before I accept this as fact. It's the same standard I apply to all religions.

But the converse, by this twisted logic then:

If I wrote that you were thirteen foot tall:

No one has either televised or photographed you.
No one has yet produced details to confirm the event.
No Campfire folk have seen your height.
Scopes and Google can't confirm your height.
Therefore, You must be 13 feet tall.

I mean, really, after all we read it on the internet.

http://www.weatherbynation.com/spikecamp/conversation/1/mark-v-catastrophe/0/

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

The thing I remember reading about this is that with so many small lugs (9), they have much smaller bearing surfaces also even though the over-all surface area may be the same or somewhat more than a traditional two-lug gun. Then, when you throw in even small measures of impreciseness in the machining, some of the lugs may not fully mate with their reciprocal surfaces; add some degree of of the bolt or receiver not being fully concentric with the barrel and you may have only 3,4,5 or 6 of those small lugs bearing the brunt of the pressure. Hence, over hundreds or thousands of rounds, set-back can begin to happen.

It is not unusual that a traditional two-lug bolt gun with no squaring and lapping of the lugs will show much more wear on the rearward surface of one lug as opposed to the other after significant use also.

I asked for infirmation about similar occurrences. (Got word of one that's virtually identical to one of the other ones, from yet another state.)

I did not say (or intend to imply) that I knew that this report was factual.

I did not certify or confirm that the report was factual.

In passing along what I've been told, I'm in the dark, too.

So blow your slurs back up your asses.


"How does the bolt coming out the back cripple you?"

According to one informant, that bolt had entered the prone shooter's face at the base of his eye, had gone down through his upper and lower jaws, then down through his neck, and into his chest � and had come to rest after breaking his collar bone.

I assume that upon eventual "recovery." he was able to walk. Inability to walk is not the only way to be crippled.

Other informants reported that the bolt bodies had remained in the receivers while the inner parts had entered the shooters' faces and had wrought somewhat less damage then the entire bolt had wrought in the first case.


I do not disbelieve that these incidents occurred. Coming from so many sources, they deserve some respect, imply some credibility.

Not everybody agrees.

So be it.

With so many rifles out there, and so much ammo having been made for them, some failures will statistically happen. That goes for any man made object. Have some Weatherby Rifles failed over the years? I'm sure they have for a variety of reasons. Just like rifles made by every other maker.

Put it this way, I might have the one in a million truck that drops a ball joint at 65 MPH due to some manufacturing quirk. So what, I drive anyway. You are holding 60,000 psi between your hands, when it doses fail it will fail big. Same for any other rifle. Don't expect perfection in a man made item.




??? What Charger??



This more to your liking?

Ken - your not arguing the facts, instead your taking it personal. But, it is unethical, and may even expose you to liability, if you know of ammo that is dangerous and don't let the world know about it.

When people impugn my integrity, THEY make it personal.

A good many people who've read this thread have added to it by pooh-poohing the reports on the bases of fewer facts than I have, while disparaging my integrity, my judgement, and my motives. Isn't that all personal?

Up their asses � where it came from � is where it belongs.

I've reported what I've been told. I'd like to know more � to know whether we're facing hoax, inadequate reporting, out-right misrepresentation, or terrible risk.

I find it interesting that on this thread: http://www.weatherbynation.com/spikecamp/conversation/1/mark-v-catastrophe/0/ They are ripping you for your statements, yet on the same website you can find this thread: http://www.weatherbynation.com/spik...-jamming-with-almost-every-other-shot/0/ in which they seem to acknowledge pressure problems. - Denny

Yep. It was helpful.

Here is a fact: 35 years ago as a fulltime rangemaster I observed blown primers and case head seperations of Weatherby Ammunition shot in Weatherby MkV rifles by nonhandloading shooters. Not a rumor or story, an observed finding.

This has been an ongoing problem that Weatherby has not corrected.

John it didn't happen today. I took my Mark V out after Mass and sighted it in with my deer load. No muss no fuss, it's normal .5 at 100 with that load.

On another forum for shooters several years ago � right after my .220 Howell was introduced � the site's reigning oracle condemned the cartridge in exaggerated terms and crazy assumptions, with absolutely no facts of its design or performance. When I supplied facts and rationale, I became the wet hound at the ladies' tea by unanimous vote of his worshipers. According to his worshipers, he was infallible because he was a competition champion. Never mind that at that time, I knew more about the cartridge than anybody else on the planet.

I do mot believe the Howa action par of this statement. I do believe the actions beginning was the Vorie action for the Vangard action. If that causes some head scratching, it should. You would have to reach back to th early 1960's.

Note the distinction between an event and an allegation �

You'll never hit a target that's north of you by shooting west.

(Au contraire, mon Frere, I have been televised and photographed ad nauseam. And several Campfire folks have seen me � one has hugged me, and another has kissed me. I ain't sayin' who, so eat your heart out and conjecture and opine to your heart's content!)





"You didn't actually see my client bite the plaintiff's ear off, did you?"

"Naw, suh � but I seen 'im spit it out."

Mr. Howell, is there a way the original post should be read other than it appears?

As I read the post, it appears that your are presenting events you know to be facts.

Did you intend to post a rumor, instead? FWIW, Dutch.

Prezactely

In plain English, "Just got word" means that I'd just gotten word of an alleged event.

Not that I'd seen it happen.

Not that I knew it to be so.

Not that I'd confirmed it.

"Do you know of any other such failure?" was a question.

"I'd appreciate details" meant that I needed more information.

Ought to be clear enough.

Do you know any OTHER old gun writers that are azzhats?

Raise your hand if you ever have done the following
-been a working/paid firearms designer for a mainstream manufacturer?
-written a technical manual on designing wildcat cartridges?
-been able to call Elmer Keith, Jack O'connor, P.O. Ackley, colleagues, friends?
-written at any length professionally on in depth balllistics of numerous cartridges?
-professionally consulted for major ammunition manufacturers?



To my knowledge there is only one poster who can raise his hand to all of these? Dr. Ken Howell
Perhaps some who would question a persons knowledge should first know the source a tad better.



Its is better to be silent and thought the fool, then open ones mouth and remove all doubt.

I got word from not one but several people, some of whom I know and consider to be credible.

Y'all got the same word from me.

So?

Hence the reason folks would take on 'face value' that he actually had INSIDE info on what happened and that it did in fact happen.

But of course he has no knowledge of that and now enjoys lambasting folks that apparently didn't attend the same grammar classes.

Red herring comes to mind.

I wonder what Weatherby is doing to combat (1) the alledged problem, and (2) assure potential buyers that all is OK?

What he said he had INSIDE information on was that a certain contractor who loaded ammo had concerns over the levels of some loads that were spec'd to them.
He said he was told this in confidence and doesn't want to betray what a trusted person asked to keep private.
However I would wager if Ken were to find out the unsafe conditons DID exist, or that there perhaps was an occurance of injury, he would likely be prompted to do something about it.
Hence perhaps the fishing question at the begining of the thread asking if anyone else had any information?

How else would like him to have handled something?



Monday morning quaterbacking.

I would wager perhaps thats why Ken decided to bring this thread into existence.

"Sir, what went through your mind the first time you fired your Mark V?"


"The bolt".

I wouldn't expect the first round out of the rifle to do it. The vast majority of reports that I've gotten attest that the Weatherby Mark V handles very hot ammo very well, usually for a very long time (very many rounds).

One report that I got said that the first round that was fired that day, from a new box of ammo, blew the guts out of the bolt into the shooter's face. I would NOT assume from that report that the rifle had never been fired before.

If the reports of failure are indeed creditable, the problem seems to comprise two discrete parts coming together in tragic combination � (a) action flaw and (b) terribly excessive pressures.

Why would any firearms manufacturer or ammo manufacturer or ammo retailer or wholesaler want ammo loaded past SAAMI specs given that the folks who buy factory ammo ain't the sort to chronograph loads ? The customer would never know he was getting " high performance " stuff .

The nine locking lugs are similar in design to " Acme " threads encountered on stuff designed to handle really high tension loads exactly like the load a rifle bolt experiences . The threads on drill pipe tool joints come to mind as well as " buttress " threads on other pipe designed to be run downhole .

As far as the thread from the wby website where the guy experiencing tight bolt lift says he and his Dad have " fired over 800 rounds of factory ammo in preperation for their upcoming hunt " ---------- that's 2000 bucks worth of ammo .

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm !

So?

Are you, then, in the dark and ignorant of the facts, as you claim, or are you presenting facts, as you claim?

We've gone from light to dark back and now back to enlightened. Please forgive me, but English IS my second language, and I find it impossible to discern from your writing WHAT the value of the information is you are presenting us with.

Is this a rifle problem? Is this an ammo problem? Are non WBY brand rifles chambered in WBY cartridges blowing up with WBY ammo? Are WBY rifles chambered in NON-wby cartridges blowing up? What are we to take to heart from your post? FWIW, Dutch.

From the 2nd thread: There is a circular mark left in the cartridge from the stop pin (I believe that is what it is called), and sometimes the primer falls out completely upon ejecting the spent brass. We are firing only brand-new factory loads that we got from Cabella's a few weeks ago.

We've shot somewhere a bit under 800 rounds through them (within the past few months in preparation for the hunt), and have only have problems within the last 80 rounds or so.

Sounds like a different lot of ammo.Primers falling out isn't a good thing. I don't have a Weatherby but I don't have anything against them either. Just thought it odd as I pointed out earlier. Primers falling out isn't a good thing.

Ken,
I don't have reservations as to your word, I also have no indication that this stuff doesn't happen with other brands. I do think the nine lug thing is silly, two is enough for the 300 and 378 ultra mags, it's enough for the weatherby rounds also. The fact that a two lug system would be eaiser to manufacture within tolerances makes perfect sense to me. I also don't see this 60 degree bolt lift being any advantage.

I never saw the need for the Weatherby rounds. They are far too overbore. They have a goofy double radius neck on them. A proper chamber for them is freebored way too much.In fact, I would think that if the factory didn't freebore them enough, like an operator error, it would cause wildly excessive pressure.

If I ever buy a Weatherby it will be a Vanguard, which I found out has dual opposed locking lugs.

You ain't ever gonna make it as a weatherby slut with an attitude like that !

And the Remington 760 and the Remington 742. I think there might be a few other actions built upon the interrupted thread design.

True enough, Then again I think bolt action perfection was achieved by Paul Mauser

That's exactly why I asked for additional input.

The FACT that I presented was that I'd HEARD of another failure. It's still a fact � the only fact that I've claimed to be a fact. It's also a fact that I've heard of several failures. Now you've heard of several, too � what more do you know about 'em that you're not telling anybody?

It'd help to READ what I wrote rather than try to LOOK UNDER it for some hidden implication.

Ken,

You have reported to us previously about failed Mk V actions. I for one appreciate warnings and shared information which may reduce my risk in my favored hobby.

I appreciate that you have resources and connections which enable you to hear things which would never reach our layman's ears, except for your repeating of them.

In light of further information, have you enough data to tell us which generation of the MK V is most at risk?

German built?
1970's - 80's era Japan built?
American built?
Are they not currently built in Japan?

I still don't know enough (probably never will) to focus the question as tight and clear as it ought to be.

That's why I'm still hungry for more information � which it seems that I'll be well advised to say nothing about.

Thanks Ken for bringing this forward and your intent is good. Weatherby owners don't take it personal. After all Ken could have just swept it under the rug and said nothing. Would you rather he did that?
We shouldn't be rude to someone that has a good heart and intent.
Sorry if I was rude to you Ken.

Well at that other site we are blithering morons and assclowns, nice that they feel we have no knowledgeable members here.
Sad that we focused on one thing, they denigrate the whole website, all based on one posting.

Some here may remember that not all that long ago, several self-appointed Campfire consciences rebuked me for having mentioned something that someone had told me in a PM. IIRC, no one referred to the fact that I hadn't named the sender of that PM � so I've always assumed that they considered that omission appropriate.

Now several self-appointed Campfire consciences have been rebuking me for NOT having named certain confidential sources and for NOT having repeated here what they told me in confidence.

How's a guy to know what to do?

If PMs are sacrosanct, why not also face-to-face and telephone conversations, e-mail, and personal correspondence?

Dr. Howell,

with all due respect - I do not believe, you do not understand, what has been critizized by Steelhead, Oldtrader and others.

It is a matter of style on issues as touchy as this one.

Starting a thread, especially a person like you, whose word is headed, of severe product failures without hard data to back it up is prone to lead to discourse.

I'll take a WAG, that there is "no hard data"...maybe a dull axe.

It seems to me that openly critisizing a main line product is career suicide to a gun writer. Weatherby spends a bunch of money on advertising and probably would be pissed at a writer, and the magazine he works for, for such a disclosure. Then other manufactures, knowing what happened, would follow suit. They are not going to send a sample of a gun to a writer who they know has no problem calling junk, junk. That's why gun articles today are basically worthless.

If I got information from someone inside the industry who's job could be comprimised by disclosing the source, I wouldn't give up the name either. Sources have to be protected.

Dr Howell, I believe your premise in posting this was pure, and you indeed were looking for more information. I also believe, in retrospect, it would have been a wise choice to have not replied to inquiries as to what you already have information of, as this seemed to fuel the fire of the Weatherby debate.I wonder how differently this thread would be if it were a posting about Remington Ammo failures in Remington 700 rifles?........

This also brought out the fact that some people can't seem to zip their lip, are solely here on this post to attack you, and feel their posting was necessary to boost their own agenda / ego. I don't need to, or am attempting to downplay their input, but it amazes me when someone goes out of their way to attack another.


This is another fine example of how ANYTHING a person writes on a computer can turn around and bite the originator, and how easy it is for a person to misread the written word. Agenda against Weatherby or not, the replies should have been " please tell us more when you can", not your a jackanape for holding back information that could save another life...


I believe those who have an open mind understand the post above is a request for more information, not an attack on a brand of rifle that is dear to them, and myself. But I could be blind to your intent, I guess I just have respect for a gunwriter looking for more information, rather than attack said person. But my parents raised me to be considerate to others, and treat them as I expect to be treated... although I am sure I have strayed from this from time to time.

Good luck in your search for more information. I may take my Mk V bolt in to have the lugs magnafluxed....lol

Allen

Thank you cmg, this was my point exactly a few pages ago. I would just like to know why with facts and not here say.

GarryC,

That old family photo of yours just wasn't quite what I had in mind.

Beat this to death or what. The interrupted screw design has been around since circa 1845 in artillery canon and it will be here long after we are all having the dirt nap.
That's 164 years since the design started appearing in artillery canon. At first conception it was a 1/6 turn gas tight chamber now it's a gas tight vault like chamber with 60 degree turn in miniature form in a Weatherby rifle. (with 3 gas ports for case failure which direct the gas away from the shooters face.)
Waste your time beating up on this but the design is very old and has stood the test of time.

Canuck, little doubt the basic design is sound; however, if bolts depart from actions on unscheduled trips there is a problem, somewhere. Manufacturing of the bolt (action?), the specification of the ammo, the manufacturing of the ammo, or a combination. Or something else; that's what we look for to the experts to determine and communicate.

This whole debate reminds me of the Blaser R93 issue. In controlled tests, the engineering stands pat. Yet a few people are injured.

The issue is not that a few Mark v's are coming apart. Rifles of all makes come apart, with more frequency than we would care to admit to. The issue is that we have no usuable information (other than a shadow play of "nod, nod", "wink, wink" and "you know's").

We don't know WHICH models are involved, we don't know WHICH Weatherby chamberings these were. We don't know the lot numbers of the ammo, we don't even know if these are the German or Japanese actions. We don't know if it's an ammo problem or a rifle problem. We don't know if these failures are occurring to WBY actions above the background level.

I happpen to load for two Wby multi-lug actions; have for years. For someone who is interested in the CAUSE of the issue, those questions are the first that come to mind. It bothers me more than a little that none of those questions were apparently asked; even more that there seems to be little interest in finding out the WHY or the WHAT's in these events.

All we know is that the sky fell, or a wolf was seen, somewhere. JMO, Dutch.

Weatherby and Sako fans are loyal. You gotta give 'em that.

I love Browning, but I won't swallow a bolt thru my eye for them. Just a joke.

I believe Mr. Howell has access to info that we do not. I believe his post was made as warning that there appears to be gathering evidence that some of these actions are failing and causing significant injury.

I also understand that these rifles have given alot of folks great service over the years and these same shooters will come to Weatherby's defense when their is no hard evidence presented regarding the failures.

It boils down to someone who has more industry contacts than we do, trying to warn us that there could possibly be a problem with some Weatherby actions. I would appreciate such info if I shot them. I might would go get my gun checked out, point is we can decide what to do with the info.

If Mr. Howell cannot divulge sources of his information, it's very likely that we could find records of ongoing litigation concerning the failures.

I assume anyone who swallows a bolt and lives thru it would be looking for a lawyer. If these are not isolated incidents, there should be court records (suits filed) to go along with them.

Unless Weatherby is able to settle them out of court with a gag order, but I don't see that happening if the rifles in question pose a significant risk to the public, there should be some litigation occuring regarding the failures.

Pharmecutical Companies cannot settle out of court and impose a gag order on the plaintiff regarding medicines that may have a detrimental effect on thousands who may be using them, so it would make sense that firearms makers would not be able to do this either.

Bottom line is, if there were failures happening, they wouldn't have just started recently unless the rifles in question are of later manufacture. This should allow for pin pointing the place of manufacture, steel, process and design to be identified, thus leading us to the faulty rifles. The types of ammo used would be good info as well.

With no evidence of failures occuring within a specific lot of rifles, made at a specific location, it makes it hard to swallow that random failures are just now starting to occur thru-out the entire line of Mark V actions.

If it is a problem, it should be fairly easy to identify and know what rifles are supposedly dangerous.

JM.

Weatherby guys spit fire when their rifles are blasphemed. It's one of the requirements of ownership.

Me thinks it's the ammo not the action but this will be determined and I'm sure when the lawsuits etc.. We will all know about it. Any you fellas too scared to shoot your Bees, let me know I'll buy them.

I ain't skeered to shoot my 'Bees...


My 340 and 270Roys have done well for me, but I mostly shoot handloads through 'em.

Rolling the clock back to the forties and fifties , if someone [ Weatherby ] introduced a cartridge/rifle combo which claimed to outdo ALL the production stuff of its' time , and looked just like all the other stuff , everyone would have called B.S.

The double radiuis shoulder and different bolt lockup could be put down to an advertising gimmick except for one thing and everyone knows what it is :

THEY WORK !!

So far , all the catastrophic rifle failures I've seen pictures of on this website have been caused by barrel obstructions but you would have to read the entire thread to learn that .

We are still waiting for the " missing nose picture " explanation and how it relates to Weatherby - or any other - rifle .

Just got word of another catastrophic failure of a helium balloon.

Details are sketchy, but it appears that a homemade helium balloon (possibly made with Weatherby parts, possibly filled with Weatherby factory helium) was accidentally launched, with the potential to carry a 6 year old kid and drop him, causing irreparable damage.

the kid was not on board, but is probably mentally crippled for life, and lucky to be alive.

It all appears to be a hoax, but do you know of any other such hoaxes? I'd appreciate details.

Point is, if these rifles are failing, for whatever reason (action design, metallurgy, ammo) there should be some court records of suits filed against the manufacturer.

Has anyone found these?

JM.

I wonder if anybody chronographed the ballon, you know, to see if the load was to hot.

Ain't some balloons filled with hot air ?

Jessica is sitting in my lap, wearing a bikini as I type this...

She says ya'll are mean.

Is her nose still attached ?

Dang, those hips...

Kudos to you, Sir, for having your priorities straight, though. Keep typing.

That's exactly what has had me a bit befuddled by all this. In a country litigious enough to give us this:

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_3347961?IADID=Search-www.denverpost.com-www.denverpost.com

among WTHK how many other examples the idea that somebody wouldn't have landed in court over something like this seems hard to swallow on it's face. Throw in the fact that such events would surely get the attention of some of the anti-gun media and it gets a little harder to fathom something hasn't come out. If any lawyer even sniffed an actual pattern linking more than one case of severe injury to supposed negligence on the part of a gun manufacturer he'd clear his calendar for the whole year to go after it.

And that's not even taking into account an ammunition company, under contract with said firearms maker, is loading cartridges way above anything this country's overseer of such standards (SAAMI) recommends and hells bells it's a party time down at Shaftum & Grabbit law offices. To put that in perspective it'd be the rough equivalent of a restaurant chain not only having a policy of heating their coffee to volcanic temperatures but serving them in cups that can be shown to melt out the bottom at those temps and dump the coffee.

I'm not about to call Ken a liar (which means he would have to be intentionally describing events he factually knows to be false) but there has simply GOT to be more to this than he's being told and then relating to us. The legal issues surrounding what he's described are simply staggering.

About a decade ago I read an article from Weatherby that they had a falling out with the Japanese government and had found a company that built weapons for the military in Saco Maine, Saco Manufacturing I think it was. As far as I know they are still building Weatherby actions.

BTW: I went to the Weatherby site and built a Weatherby left-hand rifle for over $3,000 and that with a "custom" stock that would not have fit me. I stayed away from any fancy extras, just a plain Jane. For that kind of money I can have a custom rifle built to my specs with a stock that fits.

No, they won't all touch equally, but the elasticity of steel makes significant contact of all lugs practical with a little tweaking. They won't have exactly equal contact, but that's even true of different regions of the same single lug, even on a microscopic scale. Ie. if we were to pretend that steel is perfectly inelastic, then no more than 3 atoms anywhere on any part of the combined lug surfaces could be making contact, even if we only had a single lug somehow.

BTW: I went to the Weatherby site and built a Weatherby left-hand rifle for over $3,000 and that with a "custom" stock that would not have fit me. I stayed away from any fancy extras, just a plain Jane. For that kind of money I can have a custom rifle built to my specs with a stock that fits. [/quote]

Wanna sell it ?

The Wby Mark V must be about the most tested and thrashed action available, given the very nature of the calibres. In addition you have the very large case head size of the 30/378.

And remember if you can shear off the 9 lugs you also have to shear off the integral bolt handle.

I find it very difficult to believe factor Wby ammo could do this. Wby factory ammo is full of powder and Norma would not get enough extra into the case for rifle blow ups, unless they loaded the wrong powder.

You can lead a horse to water, but........

The MARK V action is a outstanding action,you can hear crap about any gunmaker and problems,it's the stinkin internet.I exceeded velocities I ever thought possible with my 338-378 and all were safe loads within the range of published data.I have also owned several 340's, 30-378's and a couple .378's never a single problem ,never sticky bolt lift nothing, firing alot of ammo.I believe it's probably the safest action out there.

Derby, it looks like we are both wrong. I was sure the Saco thing had come to an end several years ago. This is what I found if the source can be believed.



From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weatherby

I'll disagree that it's the safest,you will have to come up with a little more evidence than you provided in your last post to prove it to me,now I will say that I don't know which action is the safest,we all put alot of faith in our favorite manufacture to put out a safe product,but if someone of Mr Howell's back ground brings this up, I think one would be foolish not to take a little notice!

What we know for sure is it is the most tested action out there and especially given the low price of the 30/378 Synthetic model. There are lots of 30/378s out there, it is a real hot rod calibre and has the big case head as well. Then we also had the years prior to the late 1990s when the 30/378 and 338/378 were both wildcats and more than one or two Mark vs were converted to those calibres.

Is there any other rifle in wide circulation that you can think of which can boast a track record of 30/378 hammering. Maybe an M70 or Rem 700 or Ruger would have been fine, but we don't know, can only speculate.

All this talk of blown up rifles, leads me to ask if others can think of a blown up Ruger or groups of Rugers blowing up (as the MK V is inferred to be doing)?

Not talking barrel obstructions but action failures? I can't seem to remember one bantied about the net.

That said, were I horned up for a Wby cart. (and I ain't) - I would have one built on a Ruger. Like the asthetics and ergos mo' bettah...

Can you show us proof? there is alot of other brands that have been around awhile!I too could go out on a limb and say most Weatherbys are not the most tested action because the ammo is to expensive to buy,but that would be a total guess on my part!

Yeah, they work. But so does the Savage, Remington, Winchester, and Ruger. Just as well!

Don't get me wrong, my all time favorite rifle still has to be my 26 inch MIJ MK V Varmintmaster in 22-250. It was a sweet little rifle and shot sweet little groups. But I would never have owned it had a local dealer not clearanced them out at half price.

Roy Weatherby was all about hoopla, gimmicks, and advertising.

Heck, he could have sold the MK V for the same price as a Model 70 and forgone the Vanguard, had he not been buying all those celebrity safaris and endorsements.

Roy is often quoted as admitting the double radius shoulder was just a gimmick. It was introduced to make chamber reamers and reloading dies more difficult and expensive to produce. Thus helping to prevent private gunsmiths chambering custom built rifles in Weatherby cartridges. The shoulder design of the Weatherby magnum cartridges does nothing to enhance velocity or reduce chamber pressure.

Don't want Mom and Pop shops competing with the factory, don't you know.

Savage, Winchester, Ruger, and Remington have all built rifles which are chambered for Weatherby cartridges, they are all quite up to the task. Perhaps with the exception of the 378 and 460 Weatherby.

What Weatherby did was design large cartridge cases in smaller calibers before any major factory did it. Then he stuffed them to the nuts with powder and attempted to keep pressures under control with extra long free bore.

I'll be the first to admit the 300 Wea was a very impressive critter, when all you had to compare it with was the 30-30, or the original slow loads in the 30-06 and 300 H & H. That is not so true any more with Imperial mags, Dakota, Lazzaroni and numerous other proprietary cartridges.

Heck there is not a nickle's worth of real world performance difference between the 300 Winchester and the 300 Weatherby.
Except that Roy did it first!

But it was not anything which any wildcatter could not have done with a bit of cash to spend. And there sure was not any magic involved.

Ever since the 375 Ruger was announced, I have had an itch for a 26 inch 30-375 Ruger.

A full length H & H cartridge can be tough to shoe horn into a Model 77 Ruger. But here I would have exact 300 Wea powder capacity and performance in a cartridge which would fit easily into the 77.

UHH, No; The ammo is obviously not to expensive . I posted a couple pages back that the shooter having problems on the WBY site has fired 800 factory rounds " in preparation for a hunt " .

I thought the same as you - I've handloaded for all my weatherbys - until I learned about this guy's experience ---------------- ON THE INTERNET !

I don't believe Ken lies , but I believe he will find out he has been lied to . No other way to say it .

I had a 378 Wby built on a P 17 and I didn't get the warm fuzzy feeling from it I get from a Mark V . But I'll bet it was plenty safe .

I was just trying to make a point,I said... I could go out on a limb,I'm sure there are people with plenty of cash to feed their rifles,but just because a manufacturer has inexpensive rifles doesn't make them the most tested,remember there is no free lunch when it comes to velocity,just maybe things are catching up to Weatherby,or maybe I'm too far out on that limb!!

Who can match the field-testing of jillions of '98 Mausers by several countries in several wars?

Good point!

"Heck there is not a nickle's worth of real world performance difference between the 300 Winchester and the 300 Weatherby.
Except that Roy did it first!"

30-06 150 gn max 2950
300 win 150 gn max 3200
300 Wby 150 gn max 3400

Does that mean the 300 win hasn't a nickels worth of real worls performance over an 06?


Yes, I own a 300 wby. Not sure it is worth the extra expense of brass and recoil/ powder burned, but an Ultralight at a killer price became my first Weatherby rifle.

Funny how this has, unless the replies are in pun, a fear amongst some posters. Almost everyone knows someone who stuck mud, bullet, bug in a barrel and bananna'd it, but the guns failed to cause injury. This is becoming a Wby against the world debate, sort of like my favorite Mopar Vs every other brand name.... Being different has it's advantages, if you have thick enough skin.

I am contemplating a 257 Wby right now, and feel a 25-06 is plenty fast for my needs. So I am on the prowl for another lightweight speedster in 25 caliber..... since I have plenty of brass/ dies for that caliber and it would save quite a bit to not have to buy another setup...

Allen

I'm personally not into Weatherbys for myself, way too much fluff,but if someone else chooses to use one by all means make yourself happy,I get nothing out of finding out that they are flawed,but I won't stick my head in the sand when a man with Mr Howell's background brings something as important as this to our attention...if he was talking Rem 700 I would still be listening!!

I thought about this photo when I first saw this thread. This photo is NOT of a Weatherby! It apparently occurred in mid-2004, and a recall resulted for affected Sako & Tikka barrels. The shooter was said to have both arms under the rear of the stock, and was not seriously injured. .300 Winchester mag factory ammo.



Again, NOT of a Weatherby. The point is that even reputable modern makers can have quality lapses.

We have a member here who over the years observed several Weatherby ammo problems as a rangemaster, and a thread at the other website is reporting pressure problems with new Weatherby ammo. I have personally had 2 boxes of factory .25-06 ammo that was way off spec, luckily on the low side. If you take ammo that is normally loaded to the hot side, and throw in a handful of bad parts, things can logically get nasty.

All that said, I'd still consider a Weatherby, if it happened to be in a useful caliber/rifle, at a good buy. Ruger and Remington both have made rifles in Weatherby Calibers, and I'd consider one of them, too. After thinking it over, however, I think handloading is indicated. I like that Weatherby builds their Mark V in the US, and I hope they can quickly get to the bottom of this and resolve the problem, or prove these failures are nothing more than rumors.

It boils down to do you want two lugs the size of broom sticks or nine lugs the size of pencils.

I would also think the problem is probably with those factory Wby Magnun cartridges, not standard or Win mag or Rem mag, etc.

To add to the factory Wby Magnum loads are the handloaders trying to duplicate the Wby (Norma) factory ammo and living on the edge, pressure wise.

Hey Hawk,

We can work something out...

I'll take you at your word Matt. Gordy Gritters did the work, and he charges top dollar for his services. The rifle, which I'm sure you've seen in photos here, is a 30-378 Improved. Gordy built it from the action up. It's a Weatherby action, McMillan stock, Krieger barrel and Vias brake. It's wonderfully accurate, easily staying around 1/2 to 3/4 MOA out to 600 yards. I've developed a very good customer/service provider relationship with Gordy, so, if he claimed he lapped the lugs into contact, then he got as close as anyone could to full contact on all 9 lugs. I hand load only, so I really have zero concerns about shooting my rifle.

Not correct at all,just takes time. Have done lots of lapping on other kind of parts.

May take a fair amount of stock removal & a coarse lapping compound with some backward pressure against the boltface (preferably with the barrel off) but it will happen.

As machined/ground, then no, they will not all have equal contact.

I noted on my Weatherby that I purchased over 25 years ago that the contact wasn't 100% but after years and years of shooting the lugs seem to wear in to each other by themselves. They now are very shiny indicating full contact. Could this be? Do they eventually mate after cycling 1000's of times?

But they were not firing 378 based calibres with a lot of hot rod handloading.

For those who don't think the 30/378 is reloaded, it is group A dies with RCBS.

I ask the question again....is there is any other action in wide circulation that has taken 30/378 hammering and also as a wildcat in the Mark V.

retract statement

Since we are all sitting around here having a friendly conversation, I grabbed a couple of my reloading manuals.

I have never loaded 150's in the 300 win, but I have loaded 165's. I had no problem meeting the numbers in the book with an old 26 inch push feed model 70, so I see no reason to suspect the numbers are bad for the 150 gr bullets.

Hornady #6 says the 300 Win will make 3300 fps with five different powders.
Hodgdon #26 says she will make 3300 fps with RL 22, or H 380.
Sierra #5 gives us six powders which will make 3300 fps and 3400 fps with IMR 4350.
Nosler #4 hits 3420 fps with IMR 4350 and 3390 fps with IMR 4831.

The fastest 150 gr bullet load in the Nosler book for the 300 Wea is 80 gr of IMR 4350 at 3412 fps.

Nosler actually runs the 300 Win faster than the 300 Wea.

Sierra runs the 300 Wea to 3400 fps with a 150 gr bullet but they give you a much wider choice of powders in the 300 Wea than they do in the 300 Win.

Hodgdon's only breaks 3400 fps with two powders in the 300 Wea. Rl 19 and Rl 22 are both good for about 3460 fps in the Hodgdon's book.

Obviously, we know the Wea does have a bit more powder capacity. So it has to produce more velocity, right? But how much more?

RCBS Load 2.88 says the Wea holds 92.8 gr of water to the top of the case. The Win holds 82.4 gr of water to the top of the case.

I could refine the accuracy here a bit if I could calculate water volume with the bullet seated. But this should be close enough for our needs.

The Weatherby case has 12.6% greater volume.

If I remember Mule Deer's calculations correctly, we should see 3.15% greater velocity from the Weatherby at equivalent pressures and barrel lengths.

If we average out the reloading manuals and say the Winchester is good for 3300 to 3350 fps with a carefully chosen propellant, then the Weatherby should be good for an additional 100 fps.

That is why I claim there is not a nickle's worth of difference between the two cartridges. They are about like comparing the 308 against the 30-06.



ETA:

Remember when Weatherby used to advertise their 150 gr 300 Wea loads at 3600 fps. It is possible to make her run that hot. And that explains the anecdotes of super high pressure ammo which the good Dr. Howell has relayed to us.

The AK 47 ?

Come now.


Shooting a 7.62x39 is no kind of test.

And an 8x57 Mauser is a high pressure test vehicle?

Good informaion. I knew you would spend more time than I did researching the velocities.

The numbers I posted are from the Nosler reloading website and I realize one source, a limited online manual which obviously from your research is not a good resource, wasn't a valid basis to show my point. But, the Weatherby does give enough difference for SOME to justify the additional expense of brass, powder charge needed, cost of gun, etc. to justify the purchase of a new gun. I purchased mine more for the weight and price than the hype, but I had no 30 cal hunting gun, only 7mm's, which allowed me to buy more bullets for my inventory...lol


A good 30-06, practice and a range finder would be cheaper than a 300 wby purchase, but the additional flat shooting ability and energy of a faster 308 bullet is a real world benefit.... worth at least a dime's advantage....

Allen

I have never had the chance to shoot at game over 300 yds. my 06 does just fine.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't remember anything being posted that stated that the problem ammo was Weatherby brand.

I don't remember seeing it on this forum or the Wby. forum. Does anyone know for certain that it is Weatherby brand ammo that is causing the alleged problems?

As far as the 9 lugs vs. 2 lugs, somewhere in the Weatherby catalog it states that the 9 lugs have more surface area than the two lug actions.

With the gas ports in the Wby. bolt, I just do not understand how the firing pin mechanism blew out of the rear of the bolt. I also don't understand how the bolt could have sheared off all 9 lugs, in addition to the bolt handle and come out of the rear of the receiver.

It seems to me that with as much pressure involved as alleged on these threads that the brass case head would have melted.

Even if the cartridge gave 100,000 PSI, the case head of a .300 Wby. is only about 1/4 of a square inch, (.221 by my calculations) so the pressure against the bolt face would only be in the range of 25,000 PSI. Of course, the base of the .378 is a bit larger than the .300, but in square inches, just a small amount.

These incidents might have indeed taken place, but until I see pictures and well documented results as to the cause, I will remain skeptical.

I will research it later, but IIRC, Gen. Hatcher tested .30-06 loads up to 125,000 PSI in the 03 Springfield and it stayed togather, and the I think the Mk V action is as least as strong as the 03 action, and would handle the escaping gas from a ruptured case much better.

If I have my figures right, the 125,000 PSI was determined by the copper crusher guage pressure measuring device. It has been proven that the copper crusher guage read less than actual pressures, so the actual pressure of the test loads Gen. Hatcher fired would be in the range of 140,000 to 150,000 PSI, or maybe even more.

My point being, if the 03 Springfield withstood this amount of pressure, the Mk V should withstand it, too.

I read somewhere, I can't remember where, of an action blowing up, and the estimated pressures were something like 200,000 PSI. I can't even remember the type action. Maybe some of the other readers can find out something about this.

IIRC the issue with redlined ammo was "for" Weatherby which would certainly imply "their" ammo. While I know there are several factory loadings for the .300 Wby the only company I know that has loaded Wby ammo "for" their line of cartridges in quite a while is Norma.

Others may know more and can chime in.

Also, does anyone know the caliber of the ammo that is allegedly causing problems? I assumed it was the .300 Wby. Mag., until it dawned on me that Wby. makes other calibers as well.

As a self appointed Campfire conscious - And isnt everyone appointing them selves in this game, I stand by my statement that you don't keep a confidence on a thing of this nature unless your a priest or a lawyer.

And, if you don't want to be faulted for being part of the cover up, you don't post it on the internet under your own name.

I read a lot of Elmer Keith and believe he would have put the whole truth out and let the chips fall where they may. That was the point of his stories about his WWII years as a government inspector wasn't it?

Think about this - if a lug started to sheer, the next lugs would start to take up the strain, BEFORE THE FIRST ONE CRACKED EVEN A FRACTION OF ITS LENGTH. It isn't like one lets go and the bolt gets a flying tackle at the next one.

Pictures, court documents, anything please, just produce evidence, instead of passing on rumors.

Hmmm...do you think Michael Jackson had one? I mean, his nose and all...

Sounds like a lot of posters are making this into more than it probably is.

Threats of Lawsuits, liability in a lack of full disclosure, blame for witholding information, a lack of full information.... Bunch of scared people, from my take.

If you don't own a MarkV Weatherby, why are you even posting this type of scare tactic to get information, which you don't need or deserve?

Seems like the issue MAY be overloaded factory ammo, causing damage to a brand of firearm. Then it becomes an issue the gun manufacturer has hidden facts, is liable for damages, etc.

What an odd turn for the posters request for information....

Even the thread at Wby Nation has died, but they own the gun in question, have probably handloaded and aren't afraid of the gun or shooting them, unlike some here who would never own one, nor shoot one, who seem so concerned for us Weatherby owners safety... Thanks...

Allen

If I don't own a product I ''deserve'' all the information I can get to determine if I want to own it in the future.

Owning and deserving information aren't connected...

Actually I was trying to be funny...sorry.

I almost bought one last year actually. It drowned in Hurricane Ike and was priced at $150. It was a German .300 but it was a lefty, so I couldn't think of anything to do with it.

This thread sounds like BS to me!
I heard from a gunsmith that testified in a court case once, when a dipstick bought 7mm Remington Magnum ammo because it was five dollars cheaper than the Weatherby stuff.
He then proceeded to blow the trigger guard off and split the stock. I think he got a sliver and decided to sue!
Anyhow the gunsmith testified that because of the excellent gas system of the Weatherby, (which directs gas down in a ruptured case situation) he didn't have a firing pin in his eye or something more serious than a sliver in his finger.
Rumors are for old women!
whelennut

I own Weatherbys and all this talk - and THAT'S ALL IT IS IS TALK - doesn't affect me .

However , hitting what you aim at is mostly a mental exercise and the foundation of all of it is confidence in your rifle and your ability .

Speculative posts that bring the integrity of a rifle into question don't do much for a shooter's confidence if he doesn't have the length of experience some of us old pharts have .

This is not much different from telling a fella his wife is cheating on him but you can't give him the details .

My friend Ken don't step in it often , but he did this time !

Point taken.

If you are one of the "speculators" demanding information, like their life depends on it as an exuse for Dr Howell to give full disclosure, they don't need or deserve information , IMHO.

If you plan to own a Weatherby, and handload, again this seems to have nothing for YOU to use in your purchase decisions.

My point is, some are making a mountain out of a molehill on this. If there are sound reasons to tell people there is an issue that could be beneficial to WEATHERBY OWNERS I am sure full disclosure would have been made long ago...


After reading much of where this thread is going, I believe the accusational tone is rediculous, considering we are gun people, probably reload and take risks every time we pull a trigger( bug in the bore, patch left in, etc). The frequency of the reports of accidents are in the noise, ie the odds are more you would be struck by lightening than an accident with a weatherby gun happens to one of us.

I think we are making a big deal out of nothing, making accusations of liability, or responsability and trashing peoples reputation for basically "nothing better to do".

But I could be off base, and someone really does benefit from hidden information, but I am a thrill seeker and take risks....

Allen

I own Weatherby - so that answers that load of nonsense.

I think this posting was put up here to discredit Weatherby and I don't know the reason Ken Howell wants to discredit them. I am giving him the chance to redeem himself, but it isn't his style.

Hemiallen,

Think were getting into dead equine abuse here.

ie. - Beating a dead horse.

I think that John's right about the dead horse. John Wayne shot a Weatherby .300. "God Bless John Wayne". Surely no one will argue about that.

No argument here.

I think you're right....& don't hold your breath.


ETA:... Has anybody else noticed the conspicuous absence of comments fro JB, Redneck & Mickey???

Sure did � like walking across a pasture in the dark. My boots got stinky, but my feet are clean.


Not guilty.


It's not my style to seek redemption for anything that I'm not guilty of.

I'm guilty of a lot that you don't know anything about. I pray often for redemption � and at none of these very painful times do you even come to mind. So don't hold your breath.

...and John Wayne was a duty dodging puss. Sorry if you don't like the sound of that, but ask any of the real men of the era what they thought of him.

Always had respect for Mr. Howell's writings.

If what he says is accurate, all prominent gunwriters are criminals.

How could only he know?

How could someone who knows that products that they hawk cause injury not say so? Unless they are a spineless criminal?

Your right...I think we may have a conspiracy!!

I think it's racist!

So a 700 is a "Sucks"...

And a MKV is a "Blows"?

Long a$$ read. I guess I missed the concrete facts. Yes Weatherby ammo is hotter, by about 10,000 lbs. At one point in my life I went through magnumitis and went through all the Win mags and moved on to the WBY magnums. I sold all but one German 300, super accurate. At one point I had 4 WBY's in 300, I reloaded and shot them all, I looked, as always, very closely at the cases after shooting, I also made sure a case fired in one gun would chamber in the others. This told me there was some pretty good QC in these 5. What I missed in reading 23 pages was fact, age of the gun in question or whom was it manufactured by? Was it an early one assembled in the USA, Germany, Japan or back in the USA. What caliber was it, are we sure the right cartridge was used. Are we sure it actually happened? I have shot many MK V's, I have owned many MK V's and do not fear them.

+1 Patience Ken it will eventually slide down the screen into obscurity as you put it on one of your posts last year. LOL
Thanks again for bringing this forward. I reload so no problem for me.

Do you attempt to reload your Weatherby(s) to factory spec?

I'm curious about this as many mention that they handload the rounds, so it doesn't matter.

I bought the rifles I have, that are chambered for Weatherby rounds, to get Weatherby performance.

I don't blindly load until they match factory ammo, chronographed, velocities. I do cherry pick load data to get where I want to be. I understand the Weatherby ammo is loaded to higher pressures, in relation to the majority of other factory rounds, as it obvious that it must be so.

I am not 378, but if you missed my question, the answers may give you some information....
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3378526/1


"I don't blindly load until they match factory ammo, chronographed, velocities. I do cherry pick load data to get where I want to be. I understand the Weatherby ammo is loaded to higher pressures, in relation to the majority of other factory rounds, as it obvious that it must be so."

Weatherby cartridges have larger case capacity than most other competing rounds, and the case capacity CAN allow them to get more velocity without having to increase the pressure.... but, we all know they ( wby ammo) is loaded to the gills in pressure, and assuming ( big ?) it is loaded TO SAAMI max, it inherently has no safety issues, hence my earlier thread.... Asking if anyone feels they exceed SAAMI, or can a handloader match Wby ammo's measured velocity.

Allen

And the answer is ------------- Matching factory velocities - while loading to data published by Nosler [ hint: IMR 7828 ] - is not a problem .

So ; Maybe Nosler is in on the conspiricy !

Thanks hemi for good reply on the subject. I've never run factory ammo through my chrony but Mule Deer seems to have studied the factory load speeds and even took the cartridge apart and weighed the powder and stuff like that. He must be one of them mad scientist types with a big laboratory in his basement. LOL

If you follow the loads and recommendations in any of the reputable reloading manuals you will never get yourself in a problem. Trim to length and measure every cartridge-never speculate that if one is the right length that the other 19 will also be. Very wrong.
If you want to see very dangerous situations don't trim your brass and let it grow and grow until it will actually bind or pinch the bullet and then you can have a problem.

Thanks for the replies.

The "other" thread that discussed pressures that started my thread got me realizing I had heard many times in the last 30 years of reading reloading magazines that Wby ammo is difficult to match with handloads, and on the EDGE of pressure. BUT, that was before 7828 was available.

From My thread it was apparent my old information was incorrect, which is great to see. As an example there was a time when an 06 could outperform a 308 by a good 200 fps, with newer powders I believe there is little lost on the shorter case if one selects the right combination, ie the 308 can be very efficient compared to the 06.

LOL at John M, the horse was dead on page 3, I was trying to bring some DUH factor to some postings that seem to be exagerations, overly making the gun the issue, while it seems more logical to me it is an ammo issue, IF AT ALL..... and I don't doubt the incidents reported, more the completeness of these accidents.

I was "loaning" my rem 700 7 rem mag to my son several weeks ago, and looked at some of the fired cases. I worked up loads for the gun using a chronograph and visual indications to determine the hottest / most accurate and loaded with that information. Looking at the cases requires me to relook at that gun in the future to make sure what I did 20 years ago is still safe.....

Allen

Had a nice conversation with Dave Gentry in his shop about action strength right before he died two years ago... he told me the only actions he'd shoot behind without glasses are the Mauser 98, Savage 110 and Weatherby MkV.

John ... speaking of beatin' a dead horse ... you've been asked several times about the person with the missing nose in the pic you posted ... Is it from a MkV mishap?? Or just trying to scare folks?

If you right-click on the image and select properties you can see that the file name is DogBiteNose.jpg

A quick google image search will allow you to find the same image on irishambulance.net

+1

Sorry to be late to the dance, but the factory ammo is "optimized", so to speak, using the slowest powders, so as to utilize the greater case capacity, to achieve the highest velocity. It's like buying ammo for a great deal of money that delivers on the idea that it is "the finest", which equates to the highest velocity in this instance. You certainly cannot argue with bullet choices and performance on game of the ammo.

I think it makes some people mad when it blows up .

I imagine that would apply to most anything.

All y'all Weatherby naysayers, many of which who have likely never owned one, should go buy a Mossberg.

To each their own.

I have a hard time buying the fact that their are no easily found lawsuits based on this, as opposed to problems with other rifles, M700 for instance.

Not a 700 basher, by the way.

If I was firing Weatherby factory ammo, in a Weatherby factory rifle, and it blew a hole in my face....you can damn sure bet I'd be looking for an Isaac...or a local facsimile thereof.

Wow I hadnt read this before. By all means please send me all of your Weatherbys and Weatherby ammo, gawd awful guns.
I heard they will maim children, especially the ones in factory original boxes.

Is there any factual documentation we can read on this or these failures any where? I like hard documentation on things like his. From failures like this, you WILL have public accessible info on them. Bad press from agendas going around has always been a problem if it's just that. .220 Swift history is a good example. After working for a master gunsmith from 76'-89' (Front Range Gunsmithing in Lakewood, CO), there's only one action I would subject more pressure to than a Mark V (Vanguard is not a Mark V). That's a Ruger No.1. I witness some pretty impressive stuff with them from there and at CST.