First off I know that your are a professor/teacher though I don't remember where you said you taught. The last month or so I've been going over to Pasadena City College every few days to work on their new parking structure on Del Mar Blvd., and Bonnie Ave. Just up the street from you. All this week I've been working on a new city college building down in Palm Desert. There's a lot of construction going on right now both in elementary through high school grades. But it's today's headlines in our newspaper that I'd like your opinion on. "Area Schools Stumble, Most fail to meet objectives put forth by federal "No Child Left Behind Act". For years now the State, and the Tax Payers have been dumping quite a bit of money into new schools, downsized class rooms, new programs, better pay, and more teachers. But yet the quality of the finished product still seems to be poor.

Question is "Where Does the Problem Lay"? I can't in any way, believe it's just the teachers, or just the parents.


Phil

Phil:

I started to write you a long answer and then realized how much trouble I could get into.

Bottom line : EVERYTHING is broken. Students, teachers, parents, administrators, the public, the infrastructure, the unions, ... EVERYTHING.

That's as far as I'll go.

Rick

Rick, and here I thought I was going to get you involved in a heated discussion. Shucks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The solution:

Vouchers, Vouchers, Real Vouchers!

Competition, Competition, Real Competition!

Consequences, Consequences, Real Consequences!

Fireplug

hey ghost

I taught college for the last 3 years and am involved with local schools and agree with Rick.

Bearbeater

Dont get me started because I wont be on the teacher's side. As much BS as I have seen at my son's schools, I will only say trash tenure, grade the teachers, fire the poor excuse for principals, allow disipline of kids, and did I say fire 3/4 of California's sorry A## liberal and lazy teachers. Dont get me started. Oh, and just how many administrative days do you need anyway? Hell, most get the whole summer off.

Here's the problem folks! [one of 'em]. Both my parents were teachers. VERY well respected teachers. The number of ex-students that lined up to talk about my mom at her funeral still brings tears to my eyes. One wrote a poem that was published in the Spokesman Review (Spokane, WA) about her.

When I graduated college with a degree in Mathematics with an education emphasis (against their bidding), my mothers advice was to lay low. Pass the girls. Never keep a girl after school, always make them come early and keep VERY detailed records.

My parents could get away with damn near murder because they were established. I couldn't get away with anything ! My folks could grag a kid by the ear and drag him off to the office. I put a hand on a kids shoulder and I'm accused of an advance.

So here's the deal. Authority has been taken away from teachers. They're expected to provide kids with ethics and discipline that their parents refuse to provide, but they are crucified when they do.

I took the easy way out. I went into the business world. Within a year or two, I couldn't afford to go back to teaching. Now, having been laid off for the second time in 3 years, I can't even consider going back to work as a teacher because I couldn't even afford to put my kids in daycare while I'm working -- I'd lose money in the process.

Now tell me: You're putting your trust in these people to "raise" your children. WTF is wrong with this scenario????

Sorry, I'm a little passionate about this topic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

Disclaimer: I know that the majority here are folks who recognize the need to be good parents. I don't mean to imply that "everyone" is expecting teachers to raise their kids, etc., but it's the truth regarding the majority. It sucks...

Muley

It goes both ways, authority has been taken away from the parents too. I sorley remember when my sixth grade son came home and threatened me with a list of phone numbers handed out in class by the teacher, for the police, child welfare and others to turn me into if I layed a hand on him. I whipped his little butt good and gave him the phone, nothing ever came of it. He's 27 now. I don't believe in spanking for every little thing but do believe it is needed at times. I do know a couple that lost their kids, at least temporarily, for spanking one of them. They were turned in for child abuse by the school. No wonder we can't work together anymore. I just blame the liberals, hey it works for me.

It's all over the lot guys. My wife is a Pre-K teacher here in Texas. These are four and five year olds. Fortunately the district she teaches in allows teachers to spank but the parents must give the school permision at the start of school year. Most do some don't. One that didn't give permission had her little darling's butt blistered by my wife last week. Of course she called the school all in a huff the next day because her kid got popped. ( I know her, she is the type that believes in reasoning with children )

Here is what got her kid's tail tanned. All documented by other teachers and kids.

1 Refused to enter class until picked up and placed at table

2 Peed in the class fish tank (each class room has an individual restroom)

3 Started food fight in cafeteria

4 Tore up a little girl classmate's work

5 Refused to stay in assigned class area on playground and was caught trying to climb chain link fence around play area.

6 When told to sit down and be quiet spit in teacher's face ( My wife)

That got him a whipping. When my wife read her the above list mommie said "OH, he didn't tell me about that he just said you whipped him." So far no more trouble.


BCR

See, Boggy, that's the whole problem, your wife is eaten up with liberalism, he should have had his butt whipped after #1. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's hard in some respects for me to comment because I am not a parent. I am 42 and since I was this childs age a lot in our world has changed. Any one of those things would have had my arse whooped good......by my dad. Not any teachers place to do that sort of discipline... PERIOD. Your wife would be at the wrong end of some litigation if I were the parent. Not to mention a criminal complaint. I can not help but wondering what your wife was doing when this child jumped up on a desk, let alone when he whipped out the one eyed walleye ! So she watched him pee in the tank ? One thing I really disslike is over blown stories to prove a point. If this is true your wife should be fired for not watching those kids close enough in the first place ! My kids would not pull this crap because it would never have gone that far to begin with. If a child is that unruly, expell them. Teacher beatings are not the answer any more than drugs. "popping" or "blistering butts" is hardly the answer any more than letting kids run wild with out any discipline. But if you ask me teachers are partially to blame for their own problems. If a parent tries to discipline a kid theese days the Teacher is the first to call child protective services. We see numerous parents who come in saying the childs teacher says the kid needs drugs. PLEASE, Lets just drug them all. That should make their jobs easier <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The last time I checked no public teachers in our system went to medical school. But of course they are all over worked and under paid etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Amen Muley, you said it better than me, but there are also alot of teachers that shouldnt be teaching also. Especially here in CA. If you really want to have fun, bring up the subject of football coaches, and PE teachers. I'd like to line them all up and whip their a##es good. Arrogent jerks, with tenure, nuff said.

I'm a retiring teacher. Most of my children had graduated before I started teaching at the local high school and college.

My opinion is this: any parent who would send their child to a public school should be charged with child neglect and/or abuse.

My wife is in line to become Principal and I still feel this way.

90% of the tenured teachers only have their job because the knew somebody or blew somebody.

None of the teachers I knew had a clue about their subject matter beyond the grade level they taught.

If you want a screwed up illiterate child, just send them to a public school and your dreams will come true.

Hey Haggis, I went to a public school and beyond your thoughts I am not screwed up! I think you have spoken for far more than the normal average of 10% also I know thousands of others that went to public school and as far as I'm concerned they aren't screwed up either. What about the majority of the people here at the campfire and most of all the other gun owners and hunters are they screwed up as well? I bet they went to a public school and according to the ATF if you are screwed (in the mind) you are not allowed to own or purchase firearms. Have they faltered this much? I don't think so!!!!

Stetson:

Have you ever taught in a public school?

Rick

I don't entirely agree, but I'll leave that lay.

So here's a problem around finding quality teachers. Let's assume for a minute that I'm a bright, well educated guy and would make a great teacher (a stretch, I know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). Why in the WORLD would I choose to work in an environment where I stand a better than average chance of losing my job or getting sued over some 15 year old airhead who's parents can't understand how their precious little ditz could get an F in chemistry, so believes her when she says it's not her fault and it's only because the teacher made an advance and she rebuffed him. Never mind that she admitted it's a lie after the fact. The school district fires the guy anyway for PR reasons. A bachelors degree and likely a masters is now useless (arguably) because there isn't a school district on the planet that will take him despite the fact he's been proven innocent. A stretch? It happened to a guy in Spokane, WA while I was student teaching there.

Oh, now factor in that with the same education I can be making better than twice the salary in a "real" job. Often times MUCH more.

Now if you could get the fall of instead of summer, I might brave those conditions and still be a teacher <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. A guy has to have priorities.

So, given the assumptions above, why would I become a teacher?????

Is it any surprise that many current teachers are only there because they are not competent enough to make it elsewhere??? Certainly some do it primarily for their love of the kids, but ...

My point is: make the pay commensurate with the job we're asking them to do and you'll lure more qualified people AND the losers will be forced out and end up flipping burgers at BK (no offence intended).

Oh and BTW, if you really think private schools are that much better, think again.

Nope and to be honest I never would if I could have a do over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I wont deny that the primary responsability lies with the parents but if you can not stop little Johnny from standing on a desk and whizzing in the fish tank with out beating the kid you should not be teaching in any school either. Teachers are supposed to be the adults. IE RESPONSIBLE

Wrong!!!! The kid should have had his azz warmed first issue and every one after, by the teacher and then a parent for getting it from the teacher. That is one of the reasons God gave us an azz, to help us learn in the formative years. You do not negotiete with a child that has no sense ofright and wrong. You do teach them the diference one way or another! I was not BEAT as a kid and neither were my kids, but dammit there was a line that did not get crossed without consequences! That is 99% of todays problems, very little need for drcency or selfcontrol as the consequences are minimal or non-extant. That and no one seems to be expected to be responsable for their actions anymore, it's somebody or somethink elses fault, NOT. You can not line the kids up and pass out good conduct, self respect, ethics and pride in accomplishment. ALL must be earned and learned, sometimes the hard way.

I am sick and tired of all the namby-pamby BS that goes on, focus on education and building productive citizens. And the parents need to instill proper values and work ethic, not buy the kid a new video game as a baby sitter!

7400Hunter, Yes but when did you go to public school? In the forties and fifties I'll bet. You could still get an education then!

Stetson's comments don't deserve a reply.

I almost forgot another HUGE reason teachers have earned a less than stellar reputation. My apologies to you Union folks, but any time reward systems are based on tenure rather than performance, performance will not be optimal. IMO, teachers unions have played a MAJOR role in the current state of public education.

Well I completely agree with that. But I would whip your arse if you laid a hand on my kid with out giving me the chance to straighten my kid out first. The teacher would get all my numbers and IF it happened again I would be at the school ASAP. The third time the teacher would have my permission. All this happy happy BS works both ways. We can not have "teachers" who sit on their hands pointing fingers untill they have kids whizzen in the fish tank and then wonder why their class room is a disaster ! Duh

Yes I agree somewhat and you could get your arss busted then too, in which I had plenty of times. Haggis, didn't single out when or where only all as a whole. Still yet I think you can get a quality education in a public schoolas well as a private school. I do think children educated in a public school has a easier time adjusting to the real world once they are out on there own, only because they have been exposed to more of an enviorment simular to what the real world is like than one educated in a private school. I am not saying either has a better education than the other but maybe one is a little more street smart fresh out of the gate. I think we, us, them and others have become our own worst enemy here ie. setting frivolous laws governing corporal punishment, sexual conduct and etc. That could have been left up to the school, teachers and parents to control. All it has done is tied the hands of all the above ie. being afraid of breaking a law and being sued and proscuted. Think about it, we have all agreed this country has become a law suit compensation loving nation....

Snuffy, my son tried that stunt years ago. Didn't need to blister his butt, just explained to him that it would take at least 5 minutes for the police to arrive. Asked him if he could imagine how sore his hind would be in those 5 minutes, after all if I'm gonna go to jail might as well get my money's worth <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My point is the lack of dicipline, or the ability to dicipline as a parent see's fit. Do you honestly think the prisons would be empty if only they ( the prisoners) were given another "time out" Give me a freekin break! Dr. Spock has greatly contributed to the decline of our educational system.

Stenson, your right. You don't have a clue having never raised a child!

Al

Oh parents should have the right to opt out of allowing corporal punishment, but they need to be ready to pick the little darlin' up and make other arraingments immediatly for their kids education.

I think you signature is appropriate for your views if you just add "little" before bastards <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Stetson:



I agree with some of the things you say, but my question is necessary because without that out on the table we have no true basis of communication.



With all due respect, you really have no clue.



T LEE has it pretty much covered. The major problem with student discipline is that most anything that would be your first instinct is prohibited.



For example, in my school district, students are very rarely expelled. The most that ever happens is an "OT," an "opportunity transfer" which means that one principal trades their problematic kid for another, and everyone hopes the kids do better in their new environments. Every child is entitled to a "free and appropriate public education," you see. Let's go with a very common issue. That means you can tell the principal to "[bleep] OFF," in front of the entire student body, and you don't/can't get kicked out. So Johnny loses his temper one day, says the F word to his 7th-grade teacher who just failed him on a third-grade math exam, and the next day the student is back in class with a smile on his face, and the teacher has to suck it up in front of the rest of the class. How likely do you think it is that another student will try and tell the teacher off when the teacher asks them to sit down, or stop talking, or where's your homework? How likely would it have been if that student was escorted out by security and never see in that teacher's class again?



That's not the teacher's fault. About all you can do is send them out of your class for the day, and the principal will likely not call home because the parent might say "Well Johnny never uses that kind of language at home. Is this the kind of teacher you hire? Is this what you teach my kids? I want to transfer Johnny to another teacher, and I'll be calling the Board. What is your name again?"



Guess what? If she does, everyone in the school district will lose. Happens all the time. If you have a wife and a mortgage and two kids, and you get by one of those scrapes without losing your job/position, you'll think twice about it next time.



Until July, I worked in an at-risk youth program. Waiting list affair. Parolees, drop-outs, wards of the state, teenage pregnancies, recovering drug addicts, gangbangers, all under 18. I buried three students in three years, two of them girls, one of them pregnant and shot twice.



Guess what? Even with the hardest core teenagers in Los Angeles, gang capital of the world, since our program had the "death penalty," which means we could get rid of students immediately and they'd have to re-enroll themselves at another school, we had superb discipline.



Get mouthy with staff? Get your stuff. Goodbye. Miss assignments? Probation, which means double the work for four weeks, and "get your stuff" the first time you're lax. Any use of foul language? See ya. Gang attire? First time you get sent home to change. The second. Bye. Fight? Everyone within 25 feet is gone. Saw it happen twice. You get one of those students crawling back after 5 weeks because they can't enroll in another school, and you let them back in under severe conditions, and the effect on the rest of the class is huge. Teacher wins. That doesn't happen in regular programs. Guess what? Student wins too. I think most of my graduates had to be DQed at leat once before they beared down and gave me their best. Of course, that is a unique population, but still, the problems are common.



You get the picture.



Yes, there are incompetent teachers who cannot maintain discipline no matter what tools you give them, but that has ALWAYS been the case.



The problem with your simplistic arguments is that teachers and administrators are effectively handcuffed. I much preferred dealing with the meanest and greenest on a daily basis with a full bag of arrows than the normal student population with a squirtgun. Even on this thread you have someone already mentioning lawsuits because of corporal punishment. I'll tell you another story about assigning the entire class extra homework on the first day of school for being too loud and rowdy when I get back from church.



I feel your anger and frustration, but I don't think you have a clue as to how things really are.



Rick

Rick, yes that is true. I do not have a clue. I am NOT being feceitous. I do not have kids. I do not understand any of this stuff. I would just want to be the one to straighten my kid out. I doubt if you were my kids teacher that we would have any thing other than respect for one another as you would not have problems like this with my kids. Easy to say but when I look at parents today it blows my mind. When I see parents that are giving kids unecessary drugs because it's what the teacher wants it blows my mind. Every one has to work together and untill that happens it will continue to be a screwed up situation. I just do not agree with a teacher, any teacher "popping" or "blistering butts" when their is a permission system and that was not followed. Teachers need to follow the rules as well. It might be difficult and frustrating but teaching is not a license to do as you wish with anothers children. It is simplistic and dated. I am not trying to wet any ones corn flakes that is just my view.

Stetson
"I am not trying to wet any ones corn flakes that is just my view."

Better get that polyp checked out.
art

Rick, just wondering, how many of these kids actualy get the message and see the light at their early age?

My kids are in their twenties now, so I don't have an idea of how many children in a given class are medicated. How the heck did teachers handle it when we were kids? Is ADD and hyperactivity a new illnesses?

I think the problem begins with the parent, and their methods of instilling dicipline. Yes, I believe it needs to have it's limits, at the same time I think we've gone too far in the wrong direction.

ADD???? For crying out loud, give a kid two cans of soda and they go wild -- must be ADD!!!! I think it was JJ who created a thread a while back on need for people to get a license to have kids. This ain't rocket science.

I'd wager that 30+% of kids behavioral problems could be directly attributed to diet.

I retired 2 years ago after being part of the public schools for 31 years. 7 years in the classroom (high school) and 24 more in administration, mostly as an Assistant Principal, but held positions as Personnel Director, and Facilites Administrator.

From 1970 till 2001 so much changed in and about our society that many of you just can't understand how that changed education.
Civil rights was a big, so was the court ruling about student freedoms (hair length, dress, etc)

Do you know that today the courts recognize almost 40 different descriptions of "families" and that a mom and dad with only their own biological kids are a minority. When I had to call a parent I had to first see who had custody, if the last name was the same, if dad was dad or maybe he was mom, or if there was even a dad or mom, sometime it was grandma, uncle Tom, or a roommate. I also had to check to see if I had to call a doctor, a probation officer or friend of the court. I also had a list of who I could not call because if I called the wrong person the kid would get the hell beat out of him and end up in the hospital. We also had list of who could and who could not pick up the child and get report cards sent to. It wasn't uncommon for me to speak with a parent who would refuse to come in, (usually to busy) then tell us to do whatever we think because they can't do anything anymore.

Know what would make education easier, if all parents would stay married to eachother, live lives like June and Ward Cleaver, be involved in PTA and Scouts, attend church every Sunday, have steady jobs with middle income wages, own their own home, have a dog and a cat, and raise their childern with these same values and be Republicans <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. NOT.

Kids are always going to change, the are forced to grow up faster, fend for themselves sooner, cope with multiple parents and their problems, compete with others on how they look and dress and face a world that is changing faster than they are.

We are damn fortunate that the vast majority of kids are able to do this despite some poor teachers and lousy parents. I've learned over the 31 years in education that most kids are pretty darn nice people.

Muley Stalker, my point exactly. I think their looking for a quick solution to a problem they don't fully understand.

I know in my case how special some educators can be. My daughter had a learning disibility in school. If it was an oral presentation, and an oral exam she would retain 90% of the material covered, and ace the test. Written work was her downfall. She wasn't dyslexic (sp?) but we had some people evaluate her. One of her highschool counslers took my daughter under her wing and did a great deal to help her graduate high school. In some schools they would have wrote her off in and left her to special ed. Now she works in a hospital in the billing dept, working with computers.

Well, I'll weigh in too on account of I'm a teacher in an inner-city school, a public school no less. Although I weary of talking "shop" in my free time.

Accountability? I'm all for it, bring in vouchers.

Salary? Ya gotta pay to get quality, "what the market will bear" in many areas is appallingly low. If one has accountability paying professionals a competitive salary is hardly "throwing money at education". Personally, I'm satisfied with what I make, but then I tend to worry about such things less than most folks.

True, you can't pay for passion. On the other hand, offer a person a decent salary and they'll bring to education the same kind of drive they would have taken somewhere else.

Discipline? I'm with Rick, give me arrows. I am fortunate in that the Administration of my school usually backs us up on discipline issues, up to and including expulsion (but then I teach in Texas, not Ca.).. Actually I very rarely NEED such arrows. Almost always if you genuinely like the kids and have thier interests at heart they'll like you back and let you run things. Sounds like a crock but it usually works.

I get a little skeptical when I hear about the "good old days" where academic standards are concerned. LOTS of my friends in high school thirty years ago were academic dim-bulbs too. The difference is that now a kid has to know more. I can remember when only a few went on to college, now most kids HAVE to go on to college to succeed.

In my generation the Armed Services were a safety net, lots of young men didn't like high school, dropped out, got in the services and turned their life around. Those same kids today would be lucky to get hired at Mc Donalds.

My mom arrived in this country in the '60's with no high school diploma, my father became disabled. Within a year of arrival my mom was hired by a major retail chain full-time, with benefits and recently retired on a comfortable retirement. That same company no longer hires full-time employees so as to avoid paying benefits. If my family had arrived in the US today we would all have no insurance and be on food stamps, at least for the first few years. We were unusual in that my mom worked, many of my friends had stay-at-home moms. Today hardly any kids do.

I would suggest that more than anything what HAS changed is the quality and kind of parenting. Most kids merely reflect where they come from. 90% of the time when you have a problem kid, you can accurately predict what the parents will be like.

I have taught the brightest honors classes as well as the most remedial subjects. A great many of those honors kids, the sort who go on to West Point, Havard et al., have real parents, the sort I remember.

Likewise a great many of those problem kids come from simply appalling homes. I often wonder just what it takes to take all the light out of a kid's eyes by age fifteen.

The short of this being, don't ask ME to raise your kid. I'll do my best to be a shining role model, the sort of teacher they'll come back and thank years later, but I can't do that nearly as often without parents.

As part of that parenting KNOW what your kid is being taught, ask them, ask the teachers. Get in their faces if you have to, they are public servants and your taxes pay their salary. If you don't like what you see complain, as often and as loud as you have to. Teachers are your public servants, likely your taxes pay their salary, and theres nothing that can throw a scare into the educational establishment like motivated, vocal parents. Especially when they are right.

Birdwatcher

Please excuse me while I climb up my soapbox� <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

All of you who think you know what is wrong with schools and education should volunteer to go to a public school and supervise lunch. It would give a teacher 30 minutes to eat without having indigestion form the stress of doing �lunch duty� and it would open your eyes to what is really happening.

And when you take some little darling to the principal�s office for throwing his food and starting a fight, you call his parents and deal with them. Sure, go ahead and spank him good. Then deal with the school board and the lawyers. After you have done that, call back and we'll talk again. In other words, put your money where your mouth is. Heck, I'd even settle for you volunteering to teach a Sunday school class. Let's see how you would handle it yourself.

BTW "the summer off" is time unemployed. I earn x number of dollars for the days I teach. They just "hold" it for me (while they earn interest) because they think I lack the brains and discipline to manage my finances and pay my bills while I am not working. Most of the male teachers I know (even the coaches) have summer jobs roofing, landscaping, or what have you just to make ends meet.

Teaching is a calling. I'm not in it for the money and you can read some of the posts here and see I�m not in it for the respect and prestige. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The most influential people in a child�s life are:
Parents
Teachers
Friends

After they become teenagers the order of influence becomes:
Friends
Teachers
Parents

See the picture?

As long as a beginning teacher makes $20,000.00 per year while your average pro baseball player makes $2,000,000.00 a season you are going to have what you have now. A few good dedicated teachers who follow God�s calling and a bunch who are too incompetent to do anything else. I would also expand that line of reasoning to include law enforcement, firemen, and EMT�s. We trust them with our lives, and our children�s safety and welfare yet we expect them to be the lowest paid professionals in our society.

And you don�t see what is wrong with that picture? Maybe, just maybe, you are getting what you deserve / paid for? Want better teachers? Attract better people into the profession. Give them half the pay and respect they deserve. Most who go into the teaching profession now are leaving it within their first five years. Those who stay in it are the few who are dedicited to the calling or too incompetent to find something else.

Personally, I would like to see school vouchers. I am all for parents having a choice where they send their children to school. But that will never happen. Being locked into public education is one of the things that keep the middle class from becoming part of the upper class. I would also like to see real vocational education programs. We attempt to school all children as if they were going to go to college. All I learned in public school was �how to go to school�.

I know that the 50�s educational methods do not work with today�s children. Children face larger and greater problems now than ever before. They know things and deal with things we never had to. The baggage they bring to school with them is unbelievable.

You complain about the bad, even criminal behavior of some students without realizing that�s the result of �reducing the drop out rate�. In the 50�s punks and thugs did not attend school. They dropped out or were kicked out and got a job or ended up in jail. Today, my child has to sit next to that thug and try to listen to his teacher while watching his back and worrying about his safety. Makes for a real cozy learning environment.

The teachers spend more time dealing with discipline than with teaching. They are forced to. They can�t kick the kid out of school, they can�t spank him, and they can�t make him do any work. Their hands are tied so they have to do the best they can to develop some type of relationship with that kid just so they can teach class. And we expect them to do this with 36 students in each class in 30 minutes a day. There is no time left for them to teach any subject matter.

Having said all that I will tell you that I have wonderful students and great parents to deal with. There are still places where the majority of the community has high moral values. It makes all the difference. It�s also tied to affluence. Most affluent people have higher expectations of their children and their schools. My son�s elementary school is one of the best in the Country. 100 % of the students have passed all elements of the State mandated tests. They also have 3,000 man-hours of volunteer work from parents this year.

Some of you know that I recently made a move. That�s the reason. The school system in the town I was teaching and living in was going down the crapper because of decisions made by the local school board. And who elects those people?

As a teacher I have a statewide job market. If I�m not happy in the school system I am working in I can move. Let me tell you not all public schools are bad. If yours is, I would suggest you start to question why? You might start by looking at how much your school pays its teachers above the state minimum salary. Does your school system hire only young, inexperienced teachers because they are cheaper? Or are you willing to pay more for experienced, successful, proven teachers?

What happens if your sports teams are not winning? Do you change your coaching staff? Do you have to pay more to attract a coach with a winning record?

What would happen if you hired your superintendent, your principals, and your teachers by that same standard?

Do you elect qualified people to your local school board? Are they there because they have children in the school system and are genuinely concerned about the quality of the schools or do they have some political agenda or an ax to grind?

I don�t know about other States, but in Texas the local school board has a lot of control over the direction of your local school system. If yours is not working I would suggest that�s where the REAL problem is. And no one can change that but you.

I�ll climb down from my soapbox now and return you to your ball game. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I watched a show on the Discovery channel the other night that reminded me of what I see with parents too often now. I think it was called Gold coast racing or something like that. It was about kids who race golf carts. They filmed this family that traveled with kids and raced. Mom and dad just screeched at each other. No real communication at all. Dad had sit fits and threw tools in the trailer yelling at the kid if he did not perform to his standards. They had a older kid, (teenager) who was ripping around on a three wheeler as the mom lamented that he better not get caught because they had already been warned that their were no three wheelers allowed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> So the kid finally gets busted by the speedway cops and mom thinks its damn funny that jimmy is giving the cops grief. She doesn't even say a word to the kid, just wants to know if they will get the bike back. All I could think was man, this is the best family on the circuit they could film ? I dont think we can group all parents or all teachers together in any group but it certainly makes me wonder where we are going as a society, or how fast we are going to get there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hey aggie

I am not on the side of the teachers or the blankity blank Union or the deans or the directors. They play this crap called politics and other people kiss their dairy air and I dont lower my standards to their hemoroid lipped no good antics. I am being nice about this so I told them to kiss off and I refuse to play their antiproductive games. wont be the frist time I did this wount be the last. I have morals and they need me I dont need them.

Bearbeater

Ok, I just read all of the above. You know what you guys all are mostly right but the one major overlooked thing is the parents, sure you guys would kick little Johnies hind end so hard he would have to unbutton his collar to fart but that is the view of a bunch of fellows who have a sence of right and wrong, we tend to flock together as one of a kind. Take a look at the parents of todays kids, they themselves for the most part are nothing more than kids themselves no matter how old they are. The parents make the babeis as an afterthought or accident then make a poor attempt to raise them all the while they are playing with their own toys or attempting to aquire toys for them selves.Proof is the credit card dept owed by most younger families. Live beyond your means and you will soon have to pay the bill. It's big screen TV's, the latest computor gear, New cars..... The kids get left in the shadows baby sat by TV. The Teachers of today if they are not ready to retire are the children of the Liberal vietnam war era parents. Thank goodness there are places like Texas where they recognize the value of disapline, even if it is being eroded by a greedy legal system. Stetson your statements do ring true in a liberal world where all parents will take time to displine and teach their children manners and social values not just the "ME ME ME I I I" values imposed on us by the demands of society today. Don't go blaming the teachers or the Unions or the admin before you look at your own house hold first.

Bullwnkl.

Al,
I hear ya, Discipline has been taken away from the parents as well as the teachers. It seems that in most homes these days both parents have to work and the kids are in daycare or the babysitters ten or more hours a day (I believe these are reward based systems only). It's true that in the "old days" some parents did go too far and some kids did suffer, so the people in power legislated child abuse laws, these were supposed to help, but it doesn't look like it's any better now. Kids are still being abused maybe even more so, at least you hear more about it. From reading the posts here it seems that both the parents and the teachers realize the problem and only a few blame the other group. That's good a group like this may be able to do something about it. Seems most of what you hear in the media is the teachers blaming the parents and the parents blaming the teachers. In fact it is both of our faults but we have to work together, the parents have to instill in their preschool children what is acceptible behavior and what is not and the teachers have to reinforce that when the kids are at school, but the Gov. threatens both of us with legal retribution if either try to spank a child. I do not believe that spanking is the answer to everthing and most kids will never need it but when nothing else seems to work it should be an accepted practice. Just another examble of a good thing (child abuse laws) used in a bad way.

stetson, since you admitedly are unfamiliar with modern day children or school and since you seem to question my wife's actions let me go through your post point by point



1 the kid in question has no dad and does not know who his biologial father is. It is doubtful if the mother does either.



2 Litigation that is why she carries personal liability insurace so azzholes who won't/can't control their kids sue when somebody else does.



3 What was she doing. Corraling twenty two other four and five year olds. Only supposed to be fifteen in a class but shortage of teacher don't you know. Supposed to have a teacher aide too but budget constraints don't you know. You ever tried to keep and eye on twenty three kids that age all at once? Oh, I forgot you don't have kids.



4 Expell them? You can't especially if they are disadvanteged. Minority. Low income. etc etc. In short once in you can not get rid of them save shifting them to some other teacher



5 By state law if my wife does not report cases of suspected child abuse that see sees to CPS she is criminaly liable. You understand why maybe that she has to err on the side of caution.



6 In our district policy is that no teacher can make medical recomendations other than that a child should see a medical doctor.



Oddly the kids she has the least trouble out of are Hispanics who's kids are sent to school clean, disciplined, and eager to learn. The parents are probably second generation illegals.



There is a waiting list of kids that want to get into my wife's class. There are three other pre-K teachers and she is the only one who has parents fighting to get their kids in her class. Some of the kids she taught are now parents and want their kids in her class.

There are twenty-five year old successful men who will still hug her neck when we run into them in public.





stetson, I am damn proud of her and before you pop off again you need to think about it just a bit.





BCR



p. s. Last year she had a four year old threaten to bring a gun to school and kill her. Do you take that serious or not?

I am not blaming or looking down my nose at any one. I fail to see how we can say it is ok for a teacher to decide to break the rules in class. I am refering to the Texas example where the teacher pops little Johnny and the parents have not given permission. I just do not see how that is ok any more than I see how it is Ok for parents to never pay any attention to their kids and let their perfect little darlings run wild. If a teacher hit some one in the store they would go to jail. Special laws in the classroom ? All I am saying is that both sides obviously need to work together. A teacher who whoops a child out of frustration made a poor career choice just as soooooo many people I see at the store on TV etc ( Paris Hilton) made poor choices to become parents. I would expect the chance to set my kid straight before the teacher decides to be the pseudo parent. If that does not work the Teachers, in my minds eye, are still obligated, legally and moraly to play within the systems rules and the four corners of the law.

I take all of it serious. I just miss the point on how select individuals get to make choices for other people that they are not bright enough, good enough parents etc etc so they are "special" and allowed to step out side the rules. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I can see a lot of frustrations on both sides. Parent whips the kids butt and the teacher calls child protective services. So the parent does not. The Teacher whips the kids butt, breaks the rules set in place and that is ok ????? That is screwed up. That is the trouble all the way around. NO one want's to be accountable for their actions.

I�ve always liked this topic because the solution is so simple. It�s much more difficult deciding on the colors for a Mac swirly.

You have to be a good enough parent and your kid of sufficient character to rise above a crappy school. Both of you quit your bitchin� a get to work.

I�ve got a senior in public high school now and two other kids that graduated within the last three years that are now attending college. We�re fresh from the mill so to speak.

If you kid has had a crappy teacher, or one they didn�t like your advice was probably �it doesn�t matter if you like the teacher � do the work and move on�. Well, it�s time to follow your own advice. The �challenges� of public school and the World are the same, which is exactly the reason public school offers a great education. If it�s too much for you and your kid consider living on Mars.

Yep, the solution is easy. Arriving at the solution can be brutally difficult. It will require sacrifices that few will be willing to make, turning instead to rationalizations on how it�s everyone else�s fault � the school, the teachers, the other kids and their parents.

It�s in all of our interests to improve schools and have great teachers so I hope you�re all involved in getting that done. If you�re not, that�s ok too � as long as you�re being the parent your kid deserves it will all work out in the end. Most folks here have enough sense of history to know we�ve �stood on the shoulders of giants� to get where we are today � let your kid stand on yours.

Stetson, I think you better get some experiance with kids and schools before you continue. Real experiance cannot be replaced by armchair quarterbacking. Some common sense is all thats needed not more "zero Tolerance" or .gov oversight!

Stetson:



I'm easily amused so I am continually amazed at how all of these social geniuses like yourself who have never had any kids, never been to a public school class since they were in one, never had their 8 year old come home and tell you how X kid in her class gave some dope to Y kid in another class, don't know that kids can't be expelled permanently, and the list could go on and ON and ON know ALL the answers.



Thanks for the laughs.

I guess you have a reading impediment. I did not say I have any answers. I did say I have ZERO experience. If my opinion does not count can I stop paying taxes for your litters education ?
The only question I pose is that why is it acceptable for a Teacher to break the rules, break the law and enforce corporal punishment because little Johnny was bad ? How is what the teacher did in this example any better than what the kid did ? If a cop was driving down the street and caught little Johnny whizzing in the bushes should the cop beat him ? Or take him home to the parents ? Teachers burn my azz. They all seem to think they know better than every one else. Give me a break. Again to some degree I agree with T.Lee. We can not Litigate or regulate our selves into a submissive society. All of this excessive Government is what put us in the crapper in the first place.
Now if I can shove off some of the poo doo that has been shoveled my way for being honest and expressing my opinion I will say that it has been elightening to some extent. I had no idea that things were as Rick posted about not being able to expell kids or have them back in your class. I would think that would make a teachers job virtually impossible. It is no suprise to me after participating in this strand that so Many people we know have their kids in private school or home teach. I see in our area now their are so many home taught kids they have their own soccor league.

Stetson, stop getting and believing your information from biased media sources and programming.......you have NO clue.....I personally hope certain gene pools are stopped in their tracks........



I have twin four year old boys.....several of you know what I am in for....so far we ( my wife and I ) were fortunate for my wife to stay at home for four years with them....now they are in pre-k and she recently started back to work while they are in school ......one thing that hasn't been touched on here is where the guidance is after school.....one thing we agree on and will do at any cost is that one of us WILL be at home when they get home from school......after having many discussions with other parents with successful children, that was the one thing all had in common.......keep in their business but at the same time giving respect......my 0.02.... Boots



Muley I agree....

Bird watcher, I here ya.....

Boggy creek, I applaud your wife......

Stetson:

Keep it coming....ROTFLMAO. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have several close friends who are teachers. My best friends wife is a teacher. This is where I get my info. The largest angst I have towards teachers arises out of the local school districts anti-fire arms stance and teaching in class that hunters are evil people and should be stopped. This is what goes on here with the money I am forced to pay for other kids education. Further I think any one who belives they have the right to break the law because they "know" better or are "special" exceptions to the rules are at the very root of the entire problem. We live in a "me first" society and when I see this I think the example that is being set leads the way. That's my 2 cents worth <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well, I sorta have to agree with you....a teacher "popping" a kid that the teacher was not allowed to pop, is technically wrong, no matter what the kid did.
But, it's sort of like the family father going to jail for defending his home with a gun, in Chicago (Is that right?)
He broke the local gun laws and has to pay the penalty. But common sense and decency should dictate that he be let go.
Same with the teacher and the kid.
By the way, I agree with that teacher.

Alls I know is that when I was in school mostly during the 70's and was deciding on appropiate behavior always in the back of my mind was what was my Father gonna do when he found out. Sometimes I made the wrong decision but not twice. Went for the grades I brought home as well.
We also had corporal punishment which I received twice. Certainly made a lasting impression on me.
Blatant disrespect of a teacher would get you a 1-3 day suspension, three suspensions an expulsion.
I'm a school board member of a little dinky(140 students) christian school in an economically depressed area. Its amazing how large a percentage problem student issues that come before the board come from broken homes. Almost 100%.
I often think how their behavior would'nt have been tolerated in my day and what their behavior would be like if they had the principal I had. A good but tough man who was feared by even the bad ass's.
I've also served with board members who are pulic school teachers and send their kids to our school. Hearing the stories of how their hands are tied it is really tough to understand why they do what they do. As someone said it is a calling.

And now we are touching on one of the REAL reasons this country is where it's at. Of course, there is no easy solution. Free media for a free country. Solve the biased reporting crap and the lack of ethics in Hollywood (they're the same thing anyway, the "news" is just another production to sell), and we're getting somewhere.

Boggy, more applause for your wife. She sounds much like my mother who spent most of her career teaching in the roughest our town had to offer. Where our country would be if we had more like them!!!! Please give her a hug for me.

I do see your point and I concur to some extent. I do not agree with the analogy of defending your life. This was not life and death, just life and frustration. It seems we all at least agree something needs to change. There certainly has to be some peramiters to function within and clearly teachers need to be given the tools to do the job. This is all I can say in closing. I pay several K a year in public school taxes. The amount our corporation and what my wife and I donate to Private education annualy exceeds that. I feel I do my part and I sure would like to see more people in our society, parents and teachers, do their part as well. It would seem if Even 50% of our population was as concerened with this as the members here it should be reasonable to rectify the situation.

Stetson, Damn funny so many of us old farts are here today as we were "popped" in school and again when we got home if the parents knew. The fact that one cannot dicipline children (I DID NOT SAY ABUSE) is probably gonna be the final straw to break the societal camels back. Without dicipline, self dicipline is non extant, then we just have anarchy, which BTW is very hard to control! (Pun Intended)

I understand your view. It is not abuse when a teacher beats a childs azz, only when a teacher finds out that a parent beat the childs azz. Its especially good for teachers thanks to the thugs ( UNION ) that govern their crappy behavior. I changed my mind. Can I be a teacher ? I would like to have a license to do as I please, break my employers rules, break the law and still get PAID ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Sound familiar? "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV..." so take my medical advice....

not an exact quote, 'cus I'm lazy: "...I'm not a parent or a teacher, but I know some ..."

Can not argue logic with that. Like I said I am just supposed to pay my taxes for your rats education with out a opinion. I tell you what. You write me a check to reimburse me what I pay for public education in one year and I will help our hero's wifey beat the kids azz <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> LOL, no better forget that idea. Any body who charges folks to hunt on public land will be saving his pennys a LOOOOOONG time to pay me back. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

At least my "rats" have had sufficient education (and God given smarts <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) to follow a line of logic. Happy to know your genes/learned attitudes aren't being passed to future generations <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.

Is it logical to believe kids learn by watching their teachers break the rules and the law ? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Y'all is funny....let's quit the name calling and get back on topic.
I think Stetson's problem is with the teacher popping the kid when the parent clearly hadn't given permission to do so, correct?
I don't have a problem with that point, but still think the teacher was justified.
Stetson, ask yourself what you would do if some punk kid spit in your face? I know that doesn't make the situation "Right", but certainly justified.

Naw...come on Stetson. Are they watching their teacher break the law? I think they experienced discipline up close and personal, and learned that there are consequences for your actions.
You make it sound like the kiddos witnessed a hold up.

Oh boy, you're out there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />.

Don't remember EVER going down that route...

Let me guess. You're next logical statement will have something to do with you and your hat coming to Colorado to kick my ass???

LMAO!!!!!! And no, I'm not laughing "with" you.

The only thing I am opposed to is the teacher popping the kid with out permission when their was a permission system to do so. I agree breaking the law is a stretch. I just have trouble with the empathy for the teacher in this single isolated incident. I am all for Corporal punsihment. Just not this way. rules and laws are just that. I just do not buy into the plethora of excuses to justify the wrong actions of any one. I do not make excuses when I am wrong I just try to accept the consequences of my actions and move on.

While I don't agree with you on the teacher's consequences, I can certainly respect your valid point of view, as you just expressed it.

WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT A BEATING? WE ARE TALKING A SWAT OR TWO HERE FER CRYING OUT LOUD.

Beatings? Who wants a beating???

"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

As to reimbursement, me too, I chose to send mine to private school and the youngest graduated some 20 years ago, but I am still paying. Seems I been double dipped just to keep my principles! And it will go on till I die!

LOL, Ok Ok I surrender ! some one PLEASE beat some cents into me ( no canadian change please ) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Exactly! Even in the "old" days there were limits. I went to a catholic grade school taught by nuns. Most, if not all were quick with their pointers. They would get it between your leg and the leg of your desk and rattle away, kinda sounded like auto-fire, they were so quick! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> The school hired a male teacher, his part time job was a professional hockey (Detroit Red Wings) referee. His method of correction was to come up behind you and smack you on the back of the head. Needless to say he was gone after one year.

Some kids don't respect their elders today. Whom ever came up with the idea that respect is earned is all wet in my book. I was taught to hold doors open for other people, now the little bass-turds slam it in your face! Amazing how many parents today think little johny didn't do anything wrong, it's always someone elses fault!

We need to bring back real discipline and respect!

It is called aversion therapy. Applied judiciously it is very effective, no need for cruelty.



Man do I ever remember those Nuns and their 18" hardwood rulers! Dang sure made you think twice before any repeat incidents!



I got whacked a few times as a kid, I cannot recall to this day of ever getting it without needing it.

ROTFLMAO <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Can some one make me a post icon of homer simpson bent over with a red arse hopping up and down ? If we can add a paddle it would just be way too much fun ! I suppose you guys are going to call me Homer from now on ..... Well That just SUCKS <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Congratulations, everyone involved on this thread! It looks like we just prevented a runaway pissing contest and pre-served some civility 'round the campfire.

Now, back to the name calling... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Amazing the way this joint works.

Stetson, the mental image of that is enough to crack me up.

Seems this is a heated topic throughout the country. Me I was raised by my Grand Parents, discipline was taught early, and I might say (Learned Early). In no way was this ever considered as child abuse. But then again when I was disciplined I was also sat down and explained what was right from wrong. I was also raised in a one-worker family, my Dad (Grand-Pa) being a railroad worker and my Grand-Ma a stay at home teacher, disciplinarian, and friend. When my Dad got home from work it wasn't to go into the library to read or study alienating himself from the rest of the family. He came home to spend time before dinner with the kids, after dinner and homework all sat down to watch early TV till bed time, usually around 9:00 P.M. I might add that homework was (Never done before dark), it was always felt that kids needed time to be kids. Weekends and some workdays I would go to the rail yards with Dad and watch him work. Quite often getting rides on the old steam locomotives. As kids we were given a lot of leeway to find ourselves and to make mistakes, but mostly to find our own interest. Some days I would disappear with friends after breakfast, go down to the river and not show up again till near dinnertime. I had a good life as a kid.

Today government doesn't give us the right to discipline. Today use a switch on a kid as my Grand-Ma did with us (to you young-ins that's a branch off a bush) and you have child welfare on your back. Let a kid have a little freedom, and say you don't know where there at, and your considered neglectful. Heck I one time when I was about 5 threw a brick at a bird, when it came back down to earth and cold cocked me! My Parents weren't accused of child abuse.

I guess you can say I'm old fashioned, believe me that's not an insult. I don't believe in divorced families, wait till you find the right partner to get married and then tough it through. I don't believe in two worker families, you have kids take care of them. Some one should always be home. Abortion, that's a whole new subject, those that stoop to this way out ought to be brought up on murder charges.

Schools and teachers, you say they aren't doing their job. Surprise, they weren't doing their job back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's either. But back then they didn't make excuses either. If Johnny or Sue couldn't read or write by the time they were 7 then guess what they weren't going to make it in the later years. There are and were many reasons a child might have learning problems. But very few Schools and teachers made an effort to find and fix a child's problem. Passing students right on up into the higher grades without even the basic skills. Luckily most families taught their kids from an early age some of the other requirements of living on this earth. And even a kid that didn't have a college degree could make a fair living and raise a family.

Things have changed, and not for the good. It's lack of morals, greed, and just pure laziness today that have ruined our education system. Not to mention just plain idiotic ideas and plans from the people in government with the responsibility to manage our schools and teach our children. Vouchers is one such plan or idea. Any voucher plan would benefit a few, but would destroy the public education system. You can't have both. Government can't afford to foot the bill for an entirely selective education for each child and or each family. Resulting in the majority being left behind with a poorly funded and lacking education. In my opinion government funds would be better spent with the major portion going towards the early years, when a child develops his or her interest and skills. Let a higher education be funded by the parents, or the teens own efforts.

I don't hold bad feelings for those of you that can afford to give your kids the best in life. But for god's sake why give a 17 year old a new Humvee, Mercedes, of BMW.

Phil

Greyghost, we musta grown up at the same time in the same town. That is exactly how I recall it. Kids could be kids and still learn and grow, mores the pity that is gone.
Mistakes were corrected by simply exclaiming, "do it over!"

"Race issue" meant arguing about who ran the fastest.

Money issues were handled by whoever was the banker in "Monopoly."

Catching the fireflies could happily occupy an entire evening.

It wasn't odd to have two or three "best friends."

Being old referred to anyone over 20.

The net on a tennis court was the perfect height to play volleyball and
rules didn't matter.

The worst thing you could catch from the opposite sex was cooties.

It was magic when dad would "remove" his thumb.

It was unbelievable that dodgeball wasn't an Olympic event.

Having a weapon in school meant being caught with a slingshot.

Nobody was prettier than Mom.

Scrapes and bruises were kissed and made better.

It was a big deal to finally be tall enough to ride the "big people" rides
at the amusement park.

Getting a foot of snow was a dream come true.

Abilities were discovered because of a "double-dog-dare."

Saturday morning cartoons weren't 30-minute ads for action figures.

No shopping trip was complete unless a new toy was brought home.

"Oly-oly-oxen-free" made perfect sense.

Spinning around, getting dizzy and falling down was cause for giggles.

The worst embarrassment was being picked last for a team.

War was a card game.

Water balloons were the ultimate weapon.

Baseball cards in the spokes transformed any bike into a motorcycle.

Taking drugs meant orange-flavored chewable aspirin.

Ice cream was considered a basic food group.

I grew up in East Germany, which sounds quite a bit different than the rural America of the 50's you are describing. And yet, the memories of my childhood closely match yours, to some degree.
I miss it.

Is there something in female genes that makes women blind to the misdeeds of their family members? There has been a rash of shootings in Des Moines this past week, including one 20 year old who fired at the cops, who returned fire and killed the kid. His sister was angry and said "He fired at them, sure, but why did they have to fire back? Sure, they needed to protect themselves, but it didn't seem as if anybody got hit..."



Hard to believe.



Paul

As morbid as it is, that's almost funny. That lack of common sense is astounding.

T-Lee, your list of the good things brought back some memory's I haven't thought of since way back. I remember as a kid of 11 or so going to Workman Mill Elementary School on the old Workman Mill Rd., right next to Rose Hills Cemetery. There were three of us real close, and one of our favorite pass times was swinging on the swings. Everything in the playground was made out of 4" pipe. The swings were the same with 6 or 8 swings to the set, made out of chain with belting as the seat. The swings were about 10' tall and directly in front and parallel about 20' away was the monkey bars. Also about 8 or 10' tall made out of 4" pipe, and about 15' or 20' long. I don't remember if we had a name for this game or not. But the general idea was to swing as hard and fast as possible getting just as high as possible, and then jumping free and catching the monkey bars with both hands as we were coming down. If you didn't catch on, or slipped and landed in the sand you lost. We did this seems like for years, don't ever remember any of us getting hurt. Though it's a wonder we didn't break our darn fool necks. It's been a while but I think the school is still there but doubt if the swing set is.



Phil

I remember a high school coach---coach Simmons. 1974 was the year. I was in the 7th grade. Coach Simmons told us to form a line. I was clowning around. He called me down the second time. I got in line, but as soon as he turned his back I started wresting a playing around again.

Coach took me to his office, got out the paddel, and gave me 3 licks. BLISSTERED MY ASS. Made my Mom furious.

Did I misbehave in school anymore? Yes.....But not in Coach Simmons class.

I saw him just a couple months ago. I still LIKE him. I still call him SIR. And if he told me to get in line, I WOULD.

GB

Yeah, we were allowed to do stupid stuff and learn from our mistakes. Made better people out of us IMHO. 'Sides, it was a hell of a lot of FUN!

So what should a teacher do when a kid spits in their face ? In Calif you would be crazy to spank him because of our liberal government. It would be the right thing to do though.

Conrad

Take my word ADD and ADHD are real. Both of my children have it. You take away their medicine and their is a huge change in their behavior and abilities and it is not for the better.

I just went through a weekend of hell because we ran out of their medicine. I got so tired of yelling at them and punishing them. It was a huge relief when we were able to refill their prescriptions and give them their medicine.

They are a 1000 percent better when taking their medicine. Their ability to concentrate, do their school work and their behavior is greatly improved. A few times we have forgotten to give them their medicine in the morning and every time we were called by their teachers who could tell. One time my daughter was standing on top of a desk in grammar school. My sons hand writing changed from pretty good to illegible and he refused to do what the teacher told him.

They weird thing about the medicine is that it is a stimulant, but it reduces their hyper-activity and lack of focus for kids with ADD or ADHD. That is how they tell if a student's problems are due to ADD or ADHD.

Conrad

ROTFLMAO

You have never worked in the public school system, have you? Kids that commit multiple assaults on faculty, staff, and other students are regularly returned to the classroom. This kid had a snowballs chance in hell of getting expelled.

Three big problems that I see with the education system here:

1) Teachers have no authority. A problem kid in the classroom is back the next day to start causing problems again if they are sent to the office. Any disciplinary action that the parent feels is too harsh is usually overturned by the school board to avoid the cost of litigation.

2) MOST parents don't give a damn about their kids and refuse to make their kids accountable for their actions. This situation just exacerbates the problem outlined in #1.

3) No focus on academics. Sports, extracurricular activities, band, AIDS education, multicultural programs, self-esteem programs, etc. all take precedence over core academics. Local school boards often have their hands tied on these issues because the state will mandate these programs, but never seem to tell the school boards how to fund these BS programs. End result? Take money AND focus away from academics so that little Johnny will have better self-esteem. It isn�t really that big of a problem that he is a senior and only reads at the fourth grade level, is it? Besides, he probably knows the whole starting lineup for the local NBA team and the lyrics to all of the new Eminem songs. That�s what really important. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

In my experience, private schools (at all levels) are better at preparing young people for the future. But, I wonder is it the increased funds or increased participation by the parents? I sorta think the latter is the reason. If a parent is forking out some cash they have more interest in getting a 'return on their investment'.

I agree and disagree. Private schools do far more with far less money. But, I don't think the parents care about a "return on their investment." I think the parents simply CARE!

Granted, public schools have lost their moral backbone. Granted, the active involvement of parents helping with the educational process is important. But the moral guidance and parent involvement at a private school are only parts of the reason why private schools succeed.

Another important is the fact that the parents care about education, care about moral giudance, and all the families at the school share a core set of values. Those values taught at home are also taught at school.

In contrast, a school system that refuses to allow the Boy Scouts into their schools and the freely welcomes homosexual education day actually defeats the value system that is taught at home. Altenative moral systems at school versus home undercut the authority of the parents. And that sets the stage for trouble.

The public school system is set up to defeat itself and the parents! Not good, not good. The systems have to work together!

Private schools are chosen by the parents. As such, the parents will choose a school that reflects their values. When the value systems are working together, good things can happen!

Just my 2 cents . . . . .

BMT

I would agree with almost every thing you have said. This stuff about not being abel to expel kids is blowing me away ! Is this the same in all states or just CA ? I dont know how you could possibly expect to accomplish any thing in that enviornment. Simply put I would use private schools. I am getting a better idea of why many of my associates and friends now pony up the $$ for private schools. I do think the Majority of parents care but probably feel just as defeated as the Teachers.

I would agree with almost every thing you have said. This stuff about not being abel to expel kids is blowing me away ! Is this the same in all states or just CA ? I dont know how you could possibly expect to accomplish any thing in that enviornment. Simply put I would use private schools. I am getting a better idea of why many of my associates and friends now pony up the $$ for private schools. I do think the Majority of parents care but probably feel just as defeated as the Teachers.