Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Hey Rick! Your opinion on a Hot Topic in California.

First off I know that your are a professor/teacher though I don't remember where you said you taught. The last month or so I've been going over to Pasadena City College every few days to work on their new parking structure on Del Mar Blvd., and Bonnie Ave. Just up the street from you. All this week I've been working on a new city college building down in Palm Desert. There's a lot of construction going on right now both in elementary through high school grades. But it's today's headlines in our newspaper that I'd like your opinion on. "Area Schools Stumble, Most fail to meet objectives put forth by federal "No Child Left Behind Act". For years now the State, and the Tax Payers have been dumping quite a bit of money into new schools, downsized class rooms, new programs, better pay, and more teachers. But yet the quality of the finished product still seems to be poor.

Question is "Where Does the Problem Lay"? I can't in any way, believe it's just the teachers, or just the parents.


Phil

Phil:

I started to write you a long answer and then realized how much trouble I could get into.

Bottom line : EVERYTHING is broken. Students, teachers, parents, administrators, the public, the infrastructure, the unions, ... EVERYTHING.

That's as far as I'll go.

Rick

Rick, and here I thought I was going to get you involved in a heated discussion. Shucks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The solution:

Vouchers, Vouchers, Real Vouchers!

Competition, Competition, Real Competition!

Consequences, Consequences, Real Consequences!

Fireplug

hey ghost

I taught college for the last 3 years and am involved with local schools and agree with Rick.

Bearbeater

Dont get me started because I wont be on the teacher's side. As much BS as I have seen at my son's schools, I will only say trash tenure, grade the teachers, fire the poor excuse for principals, allow disipline of kids, and did I say fire 3/4 of California's sorry A## liberal and lazy teachers. Dont get me started. Oh, and just how many administrative days do you need anyway? Hell, most get the whole summer off.

Here's the problem folks! [one of 'em]. Both my parents were teachers. VERY well respected teachers. The number of ex-students that lined up to talk about my mom at her funeral still brings tears to my eyes. One wrote a poem that was published in the Spokesman Review (Spokane, WA) about her.

When I graduated college with a degree in Mathematics with an education emphasis (against their bidding), my mothers advice was to lay low. Pass the girls. Never keep a girl after school, always make them come early and keep VERY detailed records.

My parents could get away with damn near murder because they were established. I couldn't get away with anything ! My folks could grag a kid by the ear and drag him off to the office. I put a hand on a kids shoulder and I'm accused of an advance.

So here's the deal. Authority has been taken away from teachers. They're expected to provide kids with ethics and discipline that their parents refuse to provide, but they are crucified when they do.

I took the easy way out. I went into the business world. Within a year or two, I couldn't afford to go back to teaching. Now, having been laid off for the second time in 3 years, I can't even consider going back to work as a teacher because I couldn't even afford to put my kids in daycare while I'm working -- I'd lose money in the process.

Now tell me: You're putting your trust in these people to "raise" your children. WTF is wrong with this scenario????

Sorry, I'm a little passionate about this topic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

Disclaimer: I know that the majority here are folks who recognize the need to be good parents. I don't mean to imply that "everyone" is expecting teachers to raise their kids, etc., but it's the truth regarding the majority. It sucks...

Muley

It goes both ways, authority has been taken away from the parents too. I sorley remember when my sixth grade son came home and threatened me with a list of phone numbers handed out in class by the teacher, for the police, child welfare and others to turn me into if I layed a hand on him. I whipped his little butt good and gave him the phone, nothing ever came of it. He's 27 now. I don't believe in spanking for every little thing but do believe it is needed at times. I do know a couple that lost their kids, at least temporarily, for spanking one of them. They were turned in for child abuse by the school. No wonder we can't work together anymore. I just blame the liberals, hey it works for me.

It's all over the lot guys. My wife is a Pre-K teacher here in Texas. These are four and five year olds. Fortunately the district she teaches in allows teachers to spank but the parents must give the school permision at the start of school year. Most do some don't. One that didn't give permission had her little darling's butt blistered by my wife last week. Of course she called the school all in a huff the next day because her kid got popped. ( I know her, she is the type that believes in reasoning with children )

Here is what got her kid's tail tanned. All documented by other teachers and kids.

1 Refused to enter class until picked up and placed at table

2 Peed in the class fish tank (each class room has an individual restroom)

3 Started food fight in cafeteria

4 Tore up a little girl classmate's work

5 Refused to stay in assigned class area on playground and was caught trying to climb chain link fence around play area.

6 When told to sit down and be quiet spit in teacher's face ( My wife)

That got him a whipping. When my wife read her the above list mommie said "OH, he didn't tell me about that he just said you whipped him." So far no more trouble.


BCR

See, Boggy, that's the whole problem, your wife is eaten up with liberalism, he should have had his butt whipped after #1. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It's hard in some respects for me to comment because I am not a parent. I am 42 and since I was this childs age a lot in our world has changed. Any one of those things would have had my arse whooped good......by my dad. Not any teachers place to do that sort of discipline... PERIOD. Your wife would be at the wrong end of some litigation if I were the parent. Not to mention a criminal complaint. I can not help but wondering what your wife was doing when this child jumped up on a desk, let alone when he whipped out the one eyed walleye ! So she watched him pee in the tank ? One thing I really disslike is over blown stories to prove a point. If this is true your wife should be fired for not watching those kids close enough in the first place ! My kids would not pull this crap because it would never have gone that far to begin with. If a child is that unruly, expell them. Teacher beatings are not the answer any more than drugs. "popping" or "blistering butts" is hardly the answer any more than letting kids run wild with out any discipline. But if you ask me teachers are partially to blame for their own problems. If a parent tries to discipline a kid theese days the Teacher is the first to call child protective services. We see numerous parents who come in saying the childs teacher says the kid needs drugs. PLEASE, Lets just drug them all. That should make their jobs easier <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The last time I checked no public teachers in our system went to medical school. But of course they are all over worked and under paid etc. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Amen Muley, you said it better than me, but there are also alot of teachers that shouldnt be teaching also. Especially here in CA. If you really want to have fun, bring up the subject of football coaches, and PE teachers. I'd like to line them all up and whip their a##es good. Arrogent jerks, with tenure, nuff said.

I'm a retiring teacher. Most of my children had graduated before I started teaching at the local high school and college.

My opinion is this: any parent who would send their child to a public school should be charged with child neglect and/or abuse.

My wife is in line to become Principal and I still feel this way.

90% of the tenured teachers only have their job because the knew somebody or blew somebody.

None of the teachers I knew had a clue about their subject matter beyond the grade level they taught.

If you want a screwed up illiterate child, just send them to a public school and your dreams will come true.

Hey Haggis, I went to a public school and beyond your thoughts I am not screwed up! I think you have spoken for far more than the normal average of 10% also I know thousands of others that went to public school and as far as I'm concerned they aren't screwed up either. What about the majority of the people here at the campfire and most of all the other gun owners and hunters are they screwed up as well? I bet they went to a public school and according to the ATF if you are screwed (in the mind) you are not allowed to own or purchase firearms. Have they faltered this much? I don't think so!!!!

Stetson:

Have you ever taught in a public school?

Rick

I don't entirely agree, but I'll leave that lay.

So here's a problem around finding quality teachers. Let's assume for a minute that I'm a bright, well educated guy and would make a great teacher (a stretch, I know <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). Why in the WORLD would I choose to work in an environment where I stand a better than average chance of losing my job or getting sued over some 15 year old airhead who's parents can't understand how their precious little ditz could get an F in chemistry, so believes her when she says it's not her fault and it's only because the teacher made an advance and she rebuffed him. Never mind that she admitted it's a lie after the fact. The school district fires the guy anyway for PR reasons. A bachelors degree and likely a masters is now useless (arguably) because there isn't a school district on the planet that will take him despite the fact he's been proven innocent. A stretch? It happened to a guy in Spokane, WA while I was student teaching there.

Oh, now factor in that with the same education I can be making better than twice the salary in a "real" job. Often times MUCH more.

Now if you could get the fall of instead of summer, I might brave those conditions and still be a teacher <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. A guy has to have priorities.

So, given the assumptions above, why would I become a teacher?????

Is it any surprise that many current teachers are only there because they are not competent enough to make it elsewhere??? Certainly some do it primarily for their love of the kids, but ...

My point is: make the pay commensurate with the job we're asking them to do and you'll lure more qualified people AND the losers will be forced out and end up flipping burgers at BK (no offence intended).

Oh and BTW, if you really think private schools are that much better, think again.

Nope and to be honest I never would if I could have a do over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I wont deny that the primary responsability lies with the parents but if you can not stop little Johnny from standing on a desk and whizzing in the fish tank with out beating the kid you should not be teaching in any school either. Teachers are supposed to be the adults. IE RESPONSIBLE

Wrong!!!! The kid should have had his azz warmed first issue and every one after, by the teacher and then a parent for getting it from the teacher. That is one of the reasons God gave us an azz, to help us learn in the formative years. You do not negotiete with a child that has no sense ofright and wrong. You do teach them the diference one way or another! I was not BEAT as a kid and neither were my kids, but dammit there was a line that did not get crossed without consequences! That is 99% of todays problems, very little need for drcency or selfcontrol as the consequences are minimal or non-extant. That and no one seems to be expected to be responsable for their actions anymore, it's somebody or somethink elses fault, NOT. You can not line the kids up and pass out good conduct, self respect, ethics and pride in accomplishment. ALL must be earned and learned, sometimes the hard way.

I am sick and tired of all the namby-pamby BS that goes on, focus on education and building productive citizens. And the parents need to instill proper values and work ethic, not buy the kid a new video game as a baby sitter!

7400Hunter, Yes but when did you go to public school? In the forties and fifties I'll bet. You could still get an education then!