BTAF SCORES AGAIN - 24hourcampfire

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NO COMMENT, except it looked like a Waco replay! Would not disclose what warrant was for, said it was sealed in court records, WHY? Everyone watched while the house burned to the ground, they had the means to put it out without endangering the fire department, they sprayed water on the houses next door instead of putting out the fire, WHY? Are we all in danger from within? -- noHope everyone has a safe and happy holiday!!

Oh heck yes! The BATF has long been out of control. I was really hoping Gee Dubya would tighten the reigns on them a little. I found this over at Free Republic.---------------------------------------------I watched the video of a suspect burned alive today. He was, admittedly and allegedly, a Bad Man™. He was allegedly a felon in possession of firearms and I have heard conflicting reports that he was impersonating an officer, or the alternate story, that he was a former police officer. Certainly he committed felony murder in front of witnessing officers.However, there is SUPPOSED to be due proccess in America. There was a fire that was started by sources unknown. Frankly, it matters not who started the fire. The response was unforgivable.I saw with my own two eyes the following: Two streams of water were directed at the houses on each adjacent side of Becks (the shooters) house. NOT ONE DROP WAS DIRECTED AT BECKS HOUSE. When the house was completely immolated, but the garage was not consumed, water was directed at the Beck house, seemingly to cool it a little. Beck was last seen in the garage. The door opened and closed. When the garage started catching, the water was no longer directed at the structure and the garage was allowed to burn to the ground.The excuse given by some more gov't-apologist-type Freepers, was that the firefighters were not willing to put themselves at risk. YET THE PRESS CONFERENCE SPOKESPERSON REVEALED THAT THE FIREFIGHTERS WERE EMPLOYING ROBOTS ON THE LADDER TOPS TO FIGHT THE FIRES.Ergo, there is NO EXCUSE not to try to fight the fire at the Beck residence. THIS FIRE WAS PURPOSEFUL AND INTENDED TO KILL BECK. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is RENO JUSTICE! What the h*ll is going on in America when we burn suspects alive, on purpose? This is wrong. This is Soviet-style activity. Our country is devolving into a Soviet-style tyranny, and I for one am furious. I am not repeat NOT defending the shooter. He committed felony murder. He was allegedly a felon in possession of firearms. He was allegedly impersonating a US Marshall. Bad guy all around.THAT SAID, AMERICAN LAW REQUIRES DUE PROCESS AND BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE IS NOT DUE PROCESS!!! Wait and talk him out. Seige him. Do what you need to do but BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE ON PURPOSE is Reichstag behavior. It's Stasi behavior. It is a horrid sign of where our country is going to. We scarely have the right to criticize the former Soviet Union, or China, if we behave like this (and if Freepers defend this sort of behavior)____--------------------------------------___The news has a more mundane story in which Beck is painted as a madman. I don't believe a thing on the media any more. 7mm

I'm not defending the BATF but he did have the choice of surrendering, did he not? He was obviously a felon in possession of firearms, and he did kill one of the officers on the scene, I mean, which one of you guys is going to try to save him? And then, the next question becomes, why and how?

It's a given that the guy killed a cop, and probably woulda ended up in the electric chair. However, why couldn't they have used the water cannons on his house to put out the fire, or at least control it? They used to spend days talking and negotiating with these types, and usualy brought these standoffs to a peacful end. Nowadays, it seems like the feds are more than ready to use deadly force. With the ATFs track record of late, I'd think twice before surrendering to them.I don't know, Cat. Maybe they were completely justified in their actions. It just worries me that maybe they were not. 7mm

It is a hard to blame them for this becous they don't know what would have hapend if they got neer. It seemed to be a syco with a gun who just wanted to keep shooting. But I think that it is likly that he would want help insted of burning. Never less it is there job to save lives, even criminals. Let the cort diside his fate.I think that it's was a lot less stupid then at Waco. (not to say that it wasn't)

I am somewhat hesitant to even respond to this. However, I feel I must come to the defense of the fire service in this situation.There has always been some tiff between fire services and law enforcement agencies when it come to motor vehicle accidents. It is more apparent in some areas than it is in others. The fire service is concerned with rescue and patient care and law enforcement is concerned with traffic control and accident reconstruction.Once in my 25 year career as a paid FF/Paramedic I had the unfortunate responsibility of responding to airplane crash. Because of the difficult terrain and long response times there were no survivors. As soon as the FAA arrived we were told to leave that our services were no longer needed. It is the law in Kentucky that the only person that can pronounce a person dead is the county coronor and until he arrives on the scene the highest medically trained individual must stay with the body(s). To make a long story short, I was placed under arrest and found out first hand that when a federal officer is on the scene they are in charge.There is no doubt in my mind those firefighters would much rather have put the fire out than to have just protected the exposures. Sometimes you just have to do what you are told to do.

That's just the point, the law enforcement told the fire department to stay back when it was clearely apparent the water cannon, remotely controled could have put the fire out just after it started in the one room. The tear gas cannisters must have started the fire. That is another subject, why do they use tear gas? Pepper spray will do the job with no heat. I personally saw a large restaurant emptied out with two very small squirts of pepper spray directed at the floor, kitchen help and all. When I trained troops we used tear gas, had to put the crystals on a candle heater or sterno heater to activate them. Does this mean the cannisters they lob into a structure are heated and cause fires? I doubt a man defending his house would be in a back upstairs room instead of on the ground floor. Who knows if they even had a search warrant and the guy was not allowing them to enter his home,(his right), and was defending it, when the deputy was shot and it escalated from there. You and I have seen the excuses some law enforcement agencys come up with. I think there should be a full investigation of this incidence and follow-up warrants issued to any guilty parties. I am for law enforcement not agendas!! Yes, I have had my training and been in enforcement and have seen it abused on both sides, that is no excuse for anybody. I for one do not trust the BTAF, even with the tough job they have, seems they have started playing GOD in too many incidences. Any enforcement officer, guilty of violating anothers rights should be punished to the maximum, no exceptions! This is still America, but for how long? -- no

Tear gas grenades definitely have some sort of internal burning fuse material in them, while in the army I saw a couple set the woods on fire, at Ft. Bragg that was just routine forest Management, something was always burning somewhere!Mike

Ever great nation has fallen from within and so shall we....... power without guidance, authority without oversite either is called corruption.

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT!!! How many of you read this thread and wanted to voice your honest opinion but in your heart were afraid to. That is one of the reasons we as hunters, shooters, gun owners, are in trouble today. Our country is in trouble, because everyone is afraid of reprisals from the authority governing us. Afraid the government at city, county, state, federal government, level will get a vindetta against us and punish us through the IRS, or other enforcement agencys. WE ARE AFRAID TO STAND UP AND BE COUNTED LIKE OUR FOREFATHERS DID. We have become a country of conformers to what ever group of people are in power. We have forgotten WE are the power. I am too old to be brow beaten by anybody and it breaks my heart to see what our country has become from some of the idiots in power. Sorry for the outbreak, you young bucks better wake up and quit waiting for someone else to do it. "What can I do is no excuse", damm it, do it. Get your friends and neighbors together and take them to vote! Start with supper with your neighbor, then another, then a block party. It works, get to know your neighbor and talk. You have to start somewhere, your child depends on YOU! Wave at everybody you see, smile, the returns are great. -- no

Why does the BATF make a Custer`s last stand over arrests. Why aren`t these guys watched,then surounded,surprised, and arrested in the street? There has to be a reason.

Sonnie, it is pretty convenient for many to say "I hate what this country has become" when what has actually happened is a little selective memory. I suppose the McCarthy era was a misunderstanding? The Hollywood blacklist times were just an FBI coverup? Maybe the Selma marches were nothing but a group of anarchists bent on revising the constitution?There has always been some difference of opinion on how law enforcement has handled the delicate duties of upholding the law, especially in high-profile cases. However, the one most important fact is that in all these recent high-profile cases the "victim" had the opportunity to turn themselves in and let the courts decide the guilt or innocence of not only the defendant, but the system that handled the arrest. If you want to go on about how the BATF did this, or the FBI did that, or the police are out of control- then you are indicting the entire LE system. If you can't see an isolated incident for what it is, then you are no better than the anarchists in Seattle, you simply have a different point of view.Now, to simplify things let's get down to the facts as I can understand them from what little I have seen in the papers and news reports. The guy was a real bad guy, impersonating an officer and Marshal, shot and killed at least one police officer and fired at least 150 rounds into the residential area with impunity. The police decided not to try to go in and arrest him because of the imminent danger. Trying to put out a fire would have only endangered even more people due to the amount of firepower available to this scumbag. (We'll ignore for the moment that the "robotic fire equipment" seems to make everyone think that it was automatic that the fire could have been put out at any time.) On top of all this, this thread starts with "BATF scores again!" I haven't read anywhere that the BATF was even involved but that is a discussion for another time.Now, I am the first to scream from the hilltops when rights have been trampled and I definitely think the various police of this country have had some black marks on their collective records the last few years but I am still a citizen of a great country and I believe in letting the facts surface before pronouncing judgement on men who faced an obvious fusillade of gunfire while making this fateful decision. This doesn't sound to me like a guy who wants to avail himself of "due process". A lot of guys on this thread remind me of the old west justice- except they want to "string up" the law enforcent officers instead of the criminal. I'm not sure what in this pitiful thread is sadder.- Sheister

The only difference in the outcome between this one and Waco is the body count.2D

Shiester, -- I appreciate you response, you seem to have many facts we are not aware of. For instance just how much firepower did this man have? Do you know for a fact he was a fugitive? I thought the TV just said he was a convicted fellon,(for what), evidently he paid for his mistake and was back in society. Does that mean he looses all of his rights? Like someone else mentioned, if he was so bad why not arrest him in a discreet manor in a place of their choice where no one would be in danger. Why not where he worked or a million other places. They just wanted in his house to see what he had and that is protected by our very foundation as a free country. You darn right I get excited when I see incompetence cost a man his life and thousands of dollars in property damage. If it was his home like reported, he had to be approved for the loan so he must have been pretty reliable. He was single, perhaps his conviction was for beating his unfaithful wife, who knows. He may have been all the bad things you can imagine but it doesn't justify what we saw on TV, with our own eyes, just like Waco! How can anyone ever justify the lives lost at Waco when we saw that first hand. They went out there with an army ready to invade and they did. That was HOME for many familys, not just the man they wanted. It was their choice of life and freedoms granted by our constitution. Dang right they were wrong, and are wrong in many cases we don't see on TV. I watched for explosions from all the munitions he was supposed to have but failed to see any indications of explosives, did you? It will be interesting to see what is found in the way of weapons in the ruins, if it is ever reported. I have an interest in this country and I darn sure feel I have a say so in how it is run. Many vets feel the same way. I would speak up for your rights also. -- no

Sheister, I got to side with Sonnie. While I agree that this dude was probably bad news, the tactics involved leave me with alot of questions.Was thje ATF involved? If not, why all the speculation over ATF casualties? What was the purpose of the raid? If it was only to serve a warrant, why couldn't they nab him on the street, away from a suspected arsenal? Is CS gas the only effective means of clearing the house? It's been well known to start fires.I'm not saying the authorities were wrong, but I do question the tactics used. It does sound alot like Ruby Ridge and Waco. And as the ones who employed the tactics also do the investigation, is the complete truth ever to be known? 7mmThe "official" story is available through the media at <A HREF="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,33424,00.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,33424,00.html</A> As I said though, I don't care to trust what the media reports.

The polce stareting a fire (even no-entenchinly) and then let the fire kill anyone it just not right. I don't blame the fire dipartment they were told not to get neer.

Yes, the BATF was involved and rightfully so, since they are in charge of enforcing federal gun laws, which this guy was in obvious violation of. To read more on the story, go to <A HREF="http://www.LATimes.com" TARGET=_blank>www.LATimes.com</A> some excerpts follow: note, this is not the whole text.XXXXX"Authorities said James Allen Beck, 35, opened fire through his front door after federal agents and two sheriff's officials tried to serve a search warrant at his home in the Stevenson Ranch development, where crime is rare and fountains gurgle on the front lawns of spacious, Spanish-tiled homes."We were attempting to serve a search warrant . . . and the guy opened up on us," said William Woolsey, a supervisory deputy U.S. marshal. "He opened fire. Automatic weapon fire."XXXXXX"Shortly before, at about 8:30 a.m., eight ATF agents, two deputy U.S. marshals and four sheriff's deputies had surrounded Beck's house.After Beck fired one round, Woolsey said, the officers backed off and Beck yelled, "My girlfriend is coming out through the garage, don't hurt her." An unidentified woman emerged from the home, and sheriff's officials said Friday night that she was being questioned.Sheriff's Lt. Ray Peavy said Beck had spoken to his mother by telephone and to his girlfriend before she left the house, telling them he might not be leaving the house alive. With his girlfriend gone, Beck resumed shooting after yelling at the officers not to hurt his dog, Woolsey said.The marshal said Kuredjian and another deputy arrived a short time later. Kuredjian, on patrol in the area, was shot as he was getting off his motorcycle, which was parked behind a large red sport utility vehicle several houses away from Beck's home, authorities said."Jake was one of the first ones to arrive," said Deeley. "He responded on his motorcycle. He stopped four doors east of the suspect's house. He took cover behind vehicles and was shot almost immediately after getting here, about two doors east of the house. The deputies at the scene were able to pick him up, carry him down to the end of the street, put him in a radio car and took him to the hospital."The gunfire continued, with Beck allegedly firing not only at police on the ground, but at police and news media helicopters.Frank Fisher, who lives about eight or nine houses from Beck, said he was outside when the shooting began and scurried behind a car. "We were pinned behind the car a good 40 minutes," he said.Fisher described Beck as "a loner who kept to himself.""He put bars on his windows and had a big old dog for protection," he said. "He told me and my neighbor he was FBI, he told other neighbors he was a marshal and now we find out he was neither."XXXXXX"By 1990, Beck had begun racking up a long string of arrests and convictions.He was convicted at least three times and ordered to serve a total of more than 10 years in prison, said Supervising Deputy U.S. Marshal William Woolsey, a spokesman for the federal marshals office. It was not known how many years he ultimately served, authorities said.According to law enforcement and court records, Beck was first convicted in 1990 for receiving stolen property--a Remington 870 shotgun and a .25-caliber Baretta. He was also convicted of grand theft, firearms violations and fraudulent use of someone else's credit card, on which he charged more than $1,300. He was sentenced to two years in state prison.In the years that followed, Beck was arrested numerous other times: on suspicion of possession of firearms, receiving stolen property, carrying firearms in public, impersonating a police officer and being a felon in possession of an assault weapon.He was again sentenced to prison, this time for four years, law enforcement and court records show.In late 1992, Beck was convicted again, of first-degree residential burglary with the intent to commit larceny. Court documents say he broke into a trailer. That time, he was sentenced to six years in state prison."End quoted text: Note, that there was a prior issued warrant which gave them the right to arrest the guy and to enter his home. If someone wants to make this guy into a poster boy for gun owners, then he and I are on the opposite sides of this one. He was a bad guy with some grandiose ideas that chose to shoot it out and got what he deserved, too bad an officer who was not directly involved in the whole deal had to get killed by the SOB in the meantime. Hope whoever owned the home had insurance, if it was not him.

Wheather this guy started the fire or not, he had plenty of opportunity to give himself up. This was nothing like Waco or Ruby Ridge. The innocents were allowed to leave. He would be alive today if he had chosen to be. Do you think the police or ATF would have shot him down in front of a dozen TV cameras if he was trying to surrender? Maybe, but I doubt it. I do not feel this guy was "one of us". From what I have heard of his background, he had little in common with the folks who visit this site. Let us not make a marter of a criminal who got what he was asking for.

Sonnie, 7mm, and others- the post above with the newspaper quote explains my post better than all the ranting and raving going on in this thread.The simple fact is that this CRIMINAL chose not to surrender and made it impossible for law enforcement officers to bring him out in any peaceful manner.The fact of this thread that dismays me most is the penchant for so many to jump to many assumptions without the "facts" to make a rational judgement on. Take it for what it is worth, but that type of rhetoric is simply vigilantism- plain and simple. While I appreciate that most of the people on this board are law abiding citizens who would jump to the assistance of others at the drop of a hat, the defense of this CRIMINAL in defiance of the law enforcement people involved speaks volumes about the general tendency of many on this board to jump to conclusions before the facts are available. That can be a pretty indefensible position to take if you find your conclusions are wrong, which IMHO, many of you are.As far as not trusting the news media- granted the media may have a long way to go earn our trust, but to dismiss everything you hear and read out of hand wreaks of the same type of paranoia as UFO sightings, two headed cows, etc... and shows a lack of rational reasoning skills. In other words, take the time to get the facts before proclaiming publicly that "the sky is falling". Personally, I don't see this as anything like the WACO incident. The only similarities are fire and someone barricaded inside the house of his own free will. If this person chose suicide over turning himself over to the authorities, I don't feel the authorities need to put their life on the line to change that decision. -Sheister

Shiester, CAT, -- OK dudes, I was watching channel 12 here when the "breaking news", came on. From the first comment they had captioned about the deputy being shot "while serving a warrant", they said the details of the warrant were "not known" and was sealed in the court. Millions saw and heard the same thing I did as it was happining, we saw the tear gas cannisters being fired against the back of the house finally hiting and breaking the windows into the house. At the time nothing was said about the officer being shot three or four doors down the street. SOMEBODY NEEDS TO GET THE STORIES STRAIGHT! We were watching it unfold and being reported "AS IT HAPPENED". WHO IS TELLING THE TRUTH? It's easier to tell the story the way you want it after the fact! As for jumping to conclusions I have seen that done here many times. No one said he was one of us, what idiot made that up! -- noShiester, as for ranting and raving, I didn't hear a thing, you must have very good ears.

All bets are off once this turd shot at random AND KILLED A COP.Im tired of all this whineing once he got cooked.If an innocent child would have caught a stray round this guy would have been called a devil and there would be no thread about him.Like Koresh,he had a chance to surrender and iron out all his Constitutional Rights in court.But he choose to take a life.The cops did the same thing a soldier would do after seeing a comrade killed,turn a flamethrower on his a.ss and hold your rifle fire,"..let em' BURN".I was hopeing that the cops would have shot that crazy,child-murdering Ukrainein, bastar_d unarmed and put a throw down gun on him.I have no problem with the police doing this in cases where the guilt of the person is not in question.Same goes for the latest butcherer of children,that D-head out in Sioux City. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Stinky Balls, -- evidently you guys out there got different news coverage than what was seen and told out here. Did you guys see the actual happening as seen and reported from the helocopter? Don't know who the woman reporter was but we had a blow by blow report and looked like the helo camera never left the scene during the incident. It did not show or I didn't see where a garage door opened and anybody came out. Perhaps that happened before the coverage started here. First words were the deputy was shot serving a warrant and they didn't know what the warrant was for and all enforcement would say is, it is sealed in court. What are we supposed to think? What are YOU supposed to think. WHAT THEY WANT US TO THINK. -- noConfuse the issue and you can do anything!!

My 2cents. No I trust the media, when the story of the Urkan. was on what was the logo behind the anchor....A GUN....I haveseveral close friends in the L.E. community, most of them my age50 or over, they do not like the mind set of the younger crowd, it is a we versus them attitude. It is being taught in the academy here and all over the country. Now what makes anyone think in 10 or 15 years when the older ones are gone .........

We haven't heard anything else about it out here in the sticks. Did someone hush it up? We didn't hear what they found in the house or anything about it. Sherry said he heard they thought they found the guy but that was all. Shiester, SB, any you guys out there heard any more? -- no

They found a body in the rubble on Saturday 1/9, unconfirmed as of yet, but highly likely that it is the shooter.There was a 3 hour gap, from about 5 AM until about 8 AM when the cops approached the door and the first shots were fired. During that time, he told his girl friend goodbye and she came out.It has not been hushed up at all, there was national coverage of the funeral today. Why is it that so many people automatically assume some kind of conspiracy?

On our local/national news they showed an official going through the rubble and he came up with a couple of bolt rifles and a couple of semi-auto pistols (looked like maybe a Sig) but they first claimed FULL AUTO fire from the house.First realize that I believe that if you attack the Police you have givin up your right to safety, just give up and have your day in court. However: Oh my! How did we ever get the job done back in the 60s and 70s without a SWAT team? We sure must have been lucky I guess! And those poor guys back in the "Roaring Twenties" boy they really had it rough! Guess I better forget all my experience, must be faulty memory. I guess a SWAT team would have gotten Dillenger and half the patrons of the Biograph and made a much bigger headline! Too bad the Feds didn't have a Saladin armored car to take out Bonnie & Clyde.I think all this militarizing of Peace Officers is patently WRONG, they are supposed to keep the peace not occupy the land. Was it a SWAT team that took out the shooter in the Texas tower, I think not. But then we do have Waco, Ruby Ridge and don't forget the bombing and burning of a whole neighborhood up east a few years ago. And surely we will need to take out the farmers up in Klamith Falls sooner or later so they don't kill some carp, using water to farm and feed human beings!Lets face it we need to get back to basics with LESS .gov intrusion in our lives, not more. Punish criminals, not "rehabilitate" them.Rant mode off.

I don't know anything about this case or what happened. I do know that when there is a shootout going on, the LAST thing L.E. is thinking about is informing all the reporters of the blow by blow. I could very easily hear them say something like "we were serving a warrant and an officer was shot, stay out of the way". Of course, the reporters then have to tell it in a way to make it fill 20 minutes while their helicopter hovers with live shots. Facts DO tend to get mixed up - even if they don't change.Another thing I know is that there was recently a local incident in which an attorney's office sent letters to dozens of criminals, informing them that a warrant had just been filed in court for their arrest and requesting that they retain this particular attorney to defend them. Many of them disappeared before L.E. had a chance to get the warrants signed and make the arrests. I can certainly see why L.E. would want to have some court records like those sealed until they have served the warrant or made the arrest.If it was me, I'd be thinking "shut up and go away, you can get your stupid story when we've got this A**H*** locked up and there isn't risk of someone else getting killed".

I know nothing about the incident except what you guys have posted here.I do think that T. LEE nailed the problem.Military tactics[ CPL was as high as I got] usually allow for some casualties on the tacticians side and also for the possibility of non combatants being injured or killed.That's not true of SWAT teams.The whole concept is flawed and you aint gonna win many battles with a flawed concept.Cops need to start depending on the authority of their badge,but that dont carry much weight unless you have moral authority to go along with it.That comes from respect and in places where cops dont get respect anymore,guess who is to blame for that?Can't blame that one on the media.Good cops who stick up for bad cops are bad cops.

Hello, Hello, -- I'm glad to see there are some happy soles out there that are content with the way things are handled. Perhaps if they were the target it might be viewed in a different light. You know big brother might want to see what's in your house someday, just because they want to, not because they need to. Look the other way when it's someone else, good guy or bad guy, who's next. Think the Germans did that, am I wrong? My TV said the guy had a stash of arms and munitions in his house, someone here said two bolt rifles and two pistols, anyone around here guilty of such a stash of weapons? The sky is falling! [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] -- no

Need One:So, to boil your position down, any time a felon is inside his home and has guns he is untouchable and the Law does not apply. Is that about it?

I wouldn't venture to say who is right and who is wrong in this case. The ONLY thing I'm saying is that if you are counting on all of the facts being available instantly just because there is a helicopter flying around with a reporter in it, then count on being disappointed OFTEN too.It usually takes a little time for all of the facts to come out. Sure, that does lead to the possibility of some facts being hidden. I wouldn't doubt that that has happened, though I DO doubt that it happens every time. Also, that doesn't mean that all facts you hear more than 5 minutes after the incident aren't true.Finally, have you ever been involved in an incident and had first hand knowledge of something that was then reported either on TV or in newsprint? I have. I'm amazed at not only the quotes attributed to people that were never said - or said very differently, and the description of events that is completely wrong.OK, so you saw the helicopter shots and saw exactly what the helicopter showed you. That still doesn't give you all of the facts about what everyone did or said or how everything happened.

It seems to me like an awful lot of people are taking up for a guy who had the opportunity to be arrested peaceably but chose not to.It doesnt matter what the warrant was for. What matters is that some law enforcement agency convinced a judge that a crime had been committed by this guy and there was enough evidence to issue the warrant.If he had surrendered and let the justice system take its course, none of this would have happened.Maybe people oughta realize that if a LEA comes knocking on your door, you should do comply with them.NOT open fire on them. Once you do that, you changed the rules as far as Im concerned.

OK,OK, -- you guys have it your way, burnum out. Due process be danged burn them out, shoot them out, never take the time to talk or wait them out. The price of that house in California would have paid a lot of salary, not to mention the clean up. WACO, how many inocent lives were lost because of very poor authority. It's not just this one isolated case, it's getting to be general, can't you see that. We have some dumb saa leadership that needs a drawstring somewhere. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img] -- noNow let's decide where you and I got the information to draw our conclusions. For me they broke in on CNN "BREAKING NEWS", showed the house being hit with tear gas from the rear. They said a deputy was shot while serving a warrant. House catches on fire and no attempt to put it out, let it burn to the ground.You heard it started two hours before, guy sent his girlfriend out, deputy arrived on a motorcycle and was shot three or four doors away and neighborhood sprayed with automatic gunfire, also shot at helocoptors, then the tear gas.Then only two bolt rifles and two pistols found. Who is telling it like it was, the dead guy can't tell his side. Neither can the dead at WACO. Randy Weaver did about Ruby Ridge and we paid several million for the mistakes. That tells something, no witnesses period. Of course law enforcement has been making jokes about that for many years. Been there done that. -- no

Not takin' sides or pickin' a fight, but the current trend to militarize the LE community scares me to death, and I'm fearless.I started out as a Deputy Sheriff in northern Illinois in 1965, then in 1967 moved to the Florida Sheriff's department I retired from. We were "Peace Officers". Our job was to keep the peace and PREVENT crime, Yes we did our share or catching crooks and serving warrants. All this was done however, in clearly identifiable police uniform, badge, patches and equipment belt. No black ninja suits or cammies with face masks, no machine guns or grenades, just a side arm and maybe a shotgun.The US vs Them mentality has taken a firm hold and I find this to be quite unhealthy and the possible precourser to a serious backlash from both the rank and file and the citizens. We need to get back to the citizen and peace officer working together for the common good instead of polarizing to opposite ends of the spectrum and being suspicious of one another all the time.The militarization of LE and especially the federal agencies in not the way to good lawenforcement, simply because they then have to flex their muscles to justify what they have and what they want next. Like a snowball rolling down hill it just gains size and momentum till it is out of control.OK soap box clear, NEXT!

Funny how the gum shoes read it from the bottom end, isn't it. -- no

I'll step up on that box....Had the Law officers NOT Knocked on the door to serve the warrant....it would have been just like Waco and Ruby Ridge. But they DID knock..and were shot at in response. THAT makes a world of difference. I am saddened that better choices were not made to bring this episode to a conclusion, but firing upon the deputy who is serving a warrant peacefully is the mark not of a wronged private citizen, but of a person who has jettisoned all thought for being a responsible, contributing member to a society founded upon the great principals this nation has (at least, in writing).I do also have my concerns about the militarization of law enforcement bodies - it even goes down to the rural county sheriff's level. No-knock raids on SUSPECTED criminals are quite common...the Waco event was a "no-knocker" if I ever saw one. It'd be very difficult for me NOT to fire back if my house was invaded by one or more men who fire yell and fire weopons PRIOR to identifying themselves, then treat you as the devil incarnate for daring to think your own life and property have some meaning to defend. I pray I never have to be in that kind of position...The feller in question though, did have the chance to come out and surrender. He did have the chance to first respond peacefully. He didn't. That point is moot now. However, the choice to use tear gas (as opposed to pepper or other gas), and the choice to allow the started fire to consume the house and criminal inside, these are very questionable tactics. But the Blue Brotherhood doesn't look very favorably on those who gun down one of their own, and these choices made could well have been vigilanteism on their part. With the growing US vs. THEM attitude that's plaguing this country (conservatives and gun owners are just as prone to this as liberals and gun bigots), it's an easy thing to start pointing fingers when something like this happens, and just as easy to make links to events that are only superficially related.TXLoader

Good point, TXloader. Had I been an LEO on the scene, after picking up one of our own, I'd probably have said "Let him burn".However, these type tactics are becoming more and more commonplace. That, my friend, is scary. Add to this the fact that the ones who investigate these instances are the very same folks who employ the tactics. That is a recipe for disaster.There are still too many questions about this left unanswered. Did Beck shoot the officer that was killed? Remember, most of the ATF casualties in Waco were from "friedly fire". Where did the auto-fire come from, if Beck had only bolt guns and pistols? Why was ATF involved in the first place?I don't disagree that this guy was a creep. I'd just like to have all the facts before I decide who's right or wrong. The tactics employed make me a little edgy. Now, even local police and game wardens are being trained to use deadly weapons and force. I don't see it as us against the cops, but it sure looks to me like it's government agaist citezens. We live in scary times. 7mm

Gentlemen, you don't get it. You've been had. Had by the inaccurate news coverage. Had by your own biases. Do you really think this is all going to be hushed up, covered up, and these "wrongs" are going to go on ? In all three of these cases there is one common tread. The bad guys, or victims, refused to play by the rules. Randy Weaver was probably the worst case. He was clearly entrapped. But he refused to go to court. So they came after him. He's now $3 million richer. The Branch Davidians died because they choose to follow a madman. Did the government "get away with it" ? How do you think the ATF agents felt when it came out that their own supervisors knew they were walking into a situation where they were made ? And, of course, there was the Oklahoma City bombing, allegedly to avenge their deaths. Yeah, it sure looks like the government got away with all right. How did guys like Johnny "the cockroach", of the OJ trial, become a multi-millionare ? By sueing the cops. By playing on the biasis, and preconcieved notions of us. That's why you have "incidences" like this one. That's why you have specticals like the OJ trial. You've been had. Now, what are you going to do about it ? E

Bitch, and make conversation, just like you and the rest of us. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -- noToo late to get bent out of shape, the game is over, loosers loose again, and power wins. Just think, no expensive trial, no appeals, don't have to feed, clothe, doctor, or anything, just write case closed. Let someone else worry with clean up, maybe code enforcement can write some citations and make a few bucks for the city. Sorry about the deputy, we all are, but that is the line of work he chose and that is one of the hazzards. Police drink a lot of coffee, eat a lot of donuts, sit around in the car, fill out many reports, but when it's time to work, stuff happens, that's why they carry weapons and wear protection.

It doesn't really matter what he used, but for the record the only reports I can find about the weapons found include an "assault weapon" under the charred body. Whether it was full auto or not was not mentioned. However, if I was standing on the other side of a door and someone was rapidly firing single shots through any kind of semi-auto weapon, I might easily mistake it for full auto fire.Please quote the source that says only bolt action rifles were found.

no - I don't know enough to comment on the latest tragedy. Based on similar past instances, I expect it will be years before the whole truth is uncovered. I will save my comments until then.As you know, it has taken years to get to the bottom of the Ruby Ridge incident, and there are still many unknowns regarding Waco. Based on what we do know about those two instances, I agree with you completely on this matter. Anytime there is a similar tragedy and the BATF is involved, we should be skeptical until the facts are known. I also understand that by me saying so, I could become a target. Does that scare me? Yeah, a little. But right is right, right? Thanks for your thoughts and ideas on the matter. I support you. SALUTE!

Deer Texas, -- thanks for the comments of support. For years while I was working and had a business I was like most of the other guys, afraid to say what I felt to be wrong doings on the part of our people in charge. Afraid of reprisals, through the many government agencys, and they do, even at the city level. Someone with a little authority get's it in for you and they pass the word through the party and your xxx has had it, until someone else gets in office or you move. Heck, there are clicks here around this campfire that work through the e-mail to target others. I have been solicited myself and I know others have been also. That's just the back fence part of todays structure. No one wants to stand up and be counted anymore and it's killing our society. Heck, the agencys can even take your kids away from you if they don't like the way you are raising them, someone elses standards over yours, but who does anything about it? You start a company, work 18 hours a day to get it going and some dude comes in and tells you who you can and can't work. I know, it happened to me in Dallas, told that SOB where the door was and don't come back. If you don't stand up and be counted they will control you, and they are, more every day. If we have enough money in our pocket to pay the bills, a job, a car, we are content and let things slide. I would bet 2/3 of the guys here don't take the time to vote because they don't know how and ashamed to ask. One of the best training tools in the military was to cut everybody's hair off soon as they came in, all smart mouth teenagers felt like everyone was looking at them. This gave the instructors the chance to take control, which we did immediately. Same principal works today in our everyday life. Bet not five people here have attended a city council meeting in the last year or Parent Teacher Meeting, where they are training YOUR children. OK, soap box open, NEXT! [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img] -- noWhile this thread started out commenting on current events, it has developed into something for political. We went through this with George and I am guilty of escalating the fire, sorry bout that, will take my soapbox over there for any future comments. They have been JMHO, BUT I STOOD UP, and you heard me. Your opinion is just as important as mine but if you don't stand up, mine gets heard and I win. Get the picture? We have several teachers here, why don't you ---