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All bets are off once this turd shot at random AND KILLED A COP.Im tired of all this whineing once he got cooked.If an innocent child would have caught a stray round this guy would have been called a devil and there would be no thread about him.Like Koresh,he had a chance to surrender and iron out all his Constitutional Rights in court.But he choose to take a life.The cops did the same thing a soldier would do after seeing a comrade killed,turn a flamethrower on his a.ss and hold your rifle fire,"..let em' BURN".I was hopeing that the cops would have shot that crazy,child-murdering Ukrainein, bastar_d unarmed and put a throw down gun on him.I have no problem with the police doing this in cases where the guilt of the person is not in question.Same goes for the latest butcherer of children,that D-head out in Sioux City. [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img]

Stinky Balls, -- evidently you guys out there got different news coverage than what was seen and told out here. Did you guys see the actual happening as seen and reported from the helocopter? Don't know who the woman reporter was but we had a blow by blow report and looked like the helo camera never left the scene during the incident. It did not show or I didn't see where a garage door opened and anybody came out. Perhaps that happened before the coverage started here. First words were the deputy was shot serving a warrant and they didn't know what the warrant was for and all enforcement would say is, it is sealed in court. What are we supposed to think? What are YOU supposed to think. WHAT THEY WANT US TO THINK. -- no<P>Confuse the issue and you can do anything!!

My 2cents. No I trust the media, when the story of the Urkan. was on what was the logo behind the anchor....A GUN....I haveseveral close friends in the L.E. community, most of them my age50 or over, they do not like the mind set of the younger crowd, it is a we versus them attitude. It is being taught in the academy here and all over the country. Now what makes anyone think in 10 or 15 years when the older ones are gone .........

We haven't heard anything else about it out here in the sticks. Did someone hush it up? We didn't hear what they found in the house or anything about it. Sherry said he heard they thought they found the guy but that was all. Shiester, SB, any you guys out there heard any more? -- no

They found a body in the rubble on Saturday 1/9, unconfirmed as of yet, but highly likely that it is the shooter.<P>There was a 3 hour gap, from about 5 AM until about 8 AM when the cops approached the door and the first shots were fired. During that time, he told his girl friend goodbye and she came out.<P>It has not been hushed up at all, there was national coverage of the funeral today. Why is it that so many people automatically assume some kind of conspiracy?

On our local/national news they showed an official going through the rubble and he came up with a couple of bolt rifles and a couple of semi-auto pistols (looked like maybe a Sig) but they first claimed FULL AUTO fire from the house.<P>First realize that I believe that if you attack the Police you have givin up your right to safety, just give up and have your day in court.<BR>However:<BR>Oh my! How did we ever get the job done back in the 60s and 70s without a SWAT team? We sure must have been lucky I guess! And those poor guys back in the "Roaring Twenties" boy they really had it rough! Guess I better forget all my experience, must be faulty memory. I guess a SWAT team would have gotten Dillenger and half the patrons of the Biograph and made a much bigger headline! Too bad the Feds didn't have a Saladin armored car to take out Bonnie & Clyde.<P>I think all this militarizing of Peace Officers is patently WRONG, they are supposed to keep the peace not occupy the land. Was it a SWAT team that took out the shooter in the Texas tower, I think not. But then we do have Waco, Ruby Ridge and don't forget the bombing and burning of a whole neighborhood up east a few years ago. And surely we will need to take out the farmers up in Klamith Falls sooner or later so they don't kill some carp, using water to farm and feed human beings!<P>Lets face it we need to get back to basics with LESS .gov intrusion in our lives, not more. Punish criminals, not "rehabilitate" them.<P>Rant mode off.

I don't know anything about this case or what happened. I do know that when there is a shootout going on, the LAST thing L.E. is thinking about is informing all the reporters of the blow by blow. I could very easily hear them say something like "we were serving a warrant and an officer was shot, stay out of the way". Of course, the reporters then have to tell it in a way to make it fill 20 minutes while their helicopter hovers with live shots. Facts DO tend to get mixed up - even if they don't change.<P>Another thing I know is that there was recently a local incident in which an attorney's office sent letters to dozens of criminals, informing them that a warrant had just been filed in court for their arrest and requesting that they retain this particular attorney to defend them. Many of them disappeared before L.E. had a chance to get the warrants signed and make the arrests. I can certainly see why L.E. would want to have some court records like those sealed until they have served the warrant or made the arrest.<P>If it was me, I'd be thinking "shut up and go away, you can get your stupid story when we've got this A**H*** locked up and there isn't risk of someone else getting killed".

I know nothing about the incident except what you guys have posted here.I do think that T. LEE nailed the problem.Military tactics[ CPL was as high as I got] usually allow for some casualties on the tacticians side and also for the possibility of non combatants being injured or killed.That's not true of SWAT teams.The whole concept is flawed and you aint gonna win many battles with a flawed concept.<P>Cops need to start depending on the authority of their badge,but that dont carry much weight unless you have moral authority to go along with it.That comes from respect and in places where cops dont get respect anymore,guess who is to blame for that?Can't blame that one on the media.<P>Good cops who stick up for bad cops are bad cops.

Hello, Hello, -- I'm glad to see there are some happy soles out there that are content with the way things are handled. Perhaps if they were the target it might be viewed in a different light. You know big brother might want to see what's in your house someday, just because they want to, not because they need to. Look the other way when it's someone else, good guy or bad guy, who's next. Think the Germans did that, am I wrong? My TV said the guy had a stash of arms and munitions in his house, someone here said two bolt rifles and two pistols, anyone around here guilty of such a stash of weapons? The sky is falling!<BR> [img]images/icons/laugh.gif" border="0[/img] -- no

Need One:<P>So, to boil your position down, any time a felon is inside his home and has guns he is untouchable and the Law does not apply. Is that about it?

I wouldn't venture to say who is right and who is wrong in this case. The ONLY thing I'm saying is that if you are counting on all of the facts being available instantly just because there is a helicopter flying around with a reporter in it, then count on being disappointed OFTEN too.<P>It usually takes a little time for all of the facts to come out. Sure, that does lead to the possibility of some facts being hidden. I wouldn't doubt that that has happened, though I DO doubt that it happens every time. Also, that doesn't mean that all facts you hear more than 5 minutes after the incident aren't true.<P>Finally, have you ever been involved in an incident and had first hand knowledge of something that was then reported either on TV or in newsprint? I have. I'm amazed at not only the quotes attributed to people that were never said - or said very differently, and the description of events that is completely wrong.<P>OK, so you saw the helicopter shots and saw exactly what the helicopter showed you. That still doesn't give you all of the facts about what everyone did or said or how everything happened.

It seems to me like an awful lot of people are taking up for a guy who had the opportunity to be arrested peaceably but chose not to.<P>It doesnt matter what the warrant was for. <P>What matters is that some law enforcement agency convinced a judge that a crime had been committed by this guy and there was enough evidence to issue the warrant.<P>If he had surrendered and let the justice system take its course, none of this would have happened.<P>Maybe people oughta realize that if a LEA comes knocking on your door, you should do comply with them.<P>NOT open fire on them. <P>Once you do that, you changed the rules as far as Im concerned.

OK,OK, -- you guys have it your way, burnum out. Due process be danged burn them out, shoot them out, never take the time to talk or wait them out. The price of that house in California would have paid a lot of salary, not to mention the clean up. WACO, how many inocent lives were lost because of very poor authority. It's not just this one isolated case, it's getting to be general, can't you see that. We have some dumb saa leadership that needs a drawstring somewhere. [img]images/icons/crazy.gif" border="0[/img] -- no<P>Now let's decide where you and I got the information to draw our conclusions. For me they broke in on CNN "BREAKING NEWS", showed the house being hit with tear gas from the rear. They said a deputy was shot while serving a warrant. House catches on fire and no attempt to put it out, let it burn to the ground.<P>You heard it started two hours before, guy sent his girlfriend out, deputy arrived on a motorcycle and was shot three or four doors away and neighborhood sprayed with automatic gunfire, also shot at helocoptors, then the tear gas.<P>Then only two bolt rifles and two pistols found. Who is telling it like it was, the dead guy can't tell his side. Neither can the dead at WACO. Randy Weaver did about Ruby Ridge and we paid several million for the mistakes. That tells something, no witnesses period. Of course law enforcement has been making jokes about that for many years. Been there done that. -- no

Not takin' sides or pickin' a fight, but the current trend to militarize the LE community scares me to death, and I'm fearless.<P>I started out as a Deputy Sheriff in northern Illinois in 1965, then in 1967 moved to the Florida Sheriff's department I retired from. We were "Peace Officers". Our job was to keep the peace and <I>PREVENT</I> crime, Yes we did our share or catching crooks and serving warrants. <P>All this was done however, in clearly identifiable police uniform, badge, patches and equipment belt. No black ninja suits or cammies with face masks, no machine guns or grenades, just a side arm and maybe a shotgun.<P>The US vs Them mentality has taken a firm hold and I find this to be quite unhealthy and the possible precourser to a serious backlash from both the rank and file and the citizens. We need to get back to the citizen and peace officer working together for the common good instead of polarizing to opposite ends of the spectrum and being suspicious of one another all the time.<P>The militarization of LE and especially the federal agencies in not the way to good lawenforcement, simply because they then have to flex their muscles to justify what they have and what they want next. Like a snowball rolling down hill it just gains size and momentum till it is out of control.<P>OK soap box clear, NEXT!

Funny how the gum shoes read it from the bottom end, isn't it. -- no

I'll step up on that box....<P>Had the Law officers NOT Knocked on the door to serve the warrant....it would have been just like Waco and Ruby Ridge. But they DID knock..and were shot at in response. THAT makes a world of difference. I am saddened that better choices were not made to bring this episode to a conclusion, but firing upon the deputy who is serving a warrant peacefully is the mark not of a wronged private citizen, but of a person who has jettisoned all thought for being a responsible, contributing member to a society founded upon the great principals this nation has (at least, in writing).<P>I do also have my concerns about the militarization of law enforcement bodies - it even goes down to the rural county sheriff's level. No-knock raids on SUSPECTED criminals are quite common...the Waco event was a "no-knocker" if I ever saw one. It'd be very difficult for me NOT to fire back if my house was invaded by one or more men who fire yell and fire weopons PRIOR to identifying themselves, then treat you as the devil incarnate for daring to think your own life and property have some meaning to defend. I pray I never have to be in that kind of position...<P>The feller in question though, did have the chance to come out and surrender. He did have the chance to first respond peacefully. He didn't. That point is moot now. However, the choice to use tear gas (as opposed to pepper or other gas), and the choice to allow the started fire to consume the house and criminal inside, these are very questionable tactics. But the Blue Brotherhood doesn't look very favorably on those who gun down one of their own, and these choices made could well have been vigilanteism on their part. With the growing US vs. THEM attitude that's plaguing this country (conservatives and gun owners are just as prone to this as liberals and gun bigots), it's an easy thing to start pointing fingers when something like this happens, and just as easy to make links to events that are only superficially related.<P>TXLoader

Good point, TXloader. Had I been an LEO on the scene, after picking up one of our own, I'd probably have said "Let him burn".<P>However, these type tactics are becoming more and more commonplace. That, my friend, is scary. Add to this the fact that the ones who investigate these instances are the very same folks who employ the tactics. That is a recipe for disaster.<P>There are still too many questions about this left unanswered. Did Beck shoot the officer that was killed? Remember, most of the ATF casualties in Waco were from "friedly fire". Where did the auto-fire come from, if Beck had only bolt guns and pistols? Why was ATF involved in the first place?<P>I don't disagree that this guy was a creep. I'd just like to have all the facts before I decide who's right or wrong. The tactics employed make me a little edgy. Now, even local police and game wardens are being trained to use deadly weapons and force. I don't see it as us against the cops, but it sure looks to me like it's government agaist citezens. We live in scary times.<BR>7mm

Gentlemen, you don't get it. You've been had. Had by the inaccurate news coverage. Had by your own biases. <BR> Do you really think this is all going to be hushed up, covered up, and these "wrongs" are going to go on ? <BR> In all three of these cases there is one common tread. The bad guys, or victims, refused to play by the rules. Randy Weaver was probably the worst case. He was clearly entrapped. But he refused to go to court. So they came after him. He's now $3 million richer. <BR> The Branch Davidians died because they choose to follow a madman. Did the government "get away with it" ? How do you think the ATF agents felt when it came out that their own supervisors knew they were walking into a situation where they were made ? And, of course, there was the Oklahoma City bombing, allegedly to avenge their deaths. Yeah, it sure looks like the government got away with all right. <BR> How did guys like Johnny "the cockroach", of the OJ trial, become a multi-millionare ? By sueing the cops. By playing on the biasis, and preconcieved notions of us. That's why you have "incidences" like this one. That's why you have specticals like the OJ trial. <BR> You've been had. Now, what are you going to do about it ? E

Bitch, and make conversation, just like you and the rest of us. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] -- no<P>Too late to get bent out of shape, the game is over, loosers loose again, and power wins. Just think, no expensive trial, no appeals, don't have to feed, clothe, doctor, or anything, just write case closed. Let someone else worry with clean up, maybe code enforcement can write some citations and make a few bucks for the city. Sorry about the deputy, we all are, but that is the line of work he chose and that is one of the hazzards. Police drink a lot of coffee, eat a lot of donuts, sit around in the car, fill out many reports, but when it's time to work, stuff happens, that's why they carry weapons and wear protection.

It doesn't really matter what he used, but for the record the only reports I can find about the weapons found include an "assault weapon" under the charred body. Whether it was full auto or not was not mentioned. However, if I was standing on the other side of a door and someone was rapidly firing single shots through any kind of semi-auto weapon, I might easily mistake it for full auto fire.<P>Please quote the source that says only bolt action rifles were found.