I went out yesterday morning to get my pop up blind and seat so I could leave So. East Ohio and head for home. I had seen nothing for two days. I needed both hands so I left the shotgun in the truck, packed up with all my other gear. I strapped on my P97 Ruger loaded with Winchester white box 230 grain bullets. (I don't go into the woods without a gun, ever.) It had been snowing, off and on, for a day and a half after raining for better than 12 hours. I saw no tracks, nor even tracks in the mud, the area looked dead.

As I picked up my gear I heard some shots on the other side of the holler, some ways away. I walked out about 200 yards and stopped, to put a dip in, at the bottom of a hill top covered with a pine planting of trees about 7 feet tall. Here comes this doe, she gets to within 12 yards of me, broadside. I pulled the P97 and fired two shots into he chest, rapid, then she turned and I fired another into the other side at an angle from the rear. She went down the hill about 20 yards and died.

When I recovered her I found no exit wounds. Gutting her, I found that both lungs had been penetrated and that my last shot punched a hole in the top of her heart. That hole did not go all the way through, I cut the heart open and recovered the bullet, which had stopped just before exit. There was one broken rib on each side, and a hole between two ribs. One of the lung shots broke a rib, as did the heart shot.

When I got home I couldn't hang the deer because it would freeze. I skinned it and broke it down, putting the parts in the refrigerator. I found one of the bullets that went through the lungs between two ribs, the tip of my knife just popped it out.

I'll not do that again. The P97 is one of my CCW guns, carried in a shoulder holster under my coat. I think I'll go ahead and get a 6 inch long slide for my EAA 10mm, and a shoulder rig for that.

Murdering a doe with a 45ACP... I like it!

Been tempted to try that myself... though, as you conclude, I'd probably chicken out and use my 10mm instead. But it'd still be fun.

Well, I would not do it again, even under the exact same situation.

Crosshair-

It's been over a decade since I hunted in Ohio, so I was wondering if they did get around to legalizing semi-auto's for handgun hunting? Way back in the day when they first legalized handguns, it was revolvers only, I believe, and limited to .38, .357 Mag, .41, and 44 Mag. I ran out and picked up a 10 1/2 inch .44 Mag Super Blackhawk and quickly learned the deer were pretty safe when I was carrying that gun. Good shooting-hope it eats good for you.

Geeze it didn't knock her off her feet!! You know the old 45 story I'm sure..just figured it would do the same thing if you hit her in the hoof.. Just a little funnin this am ,I love my 1911 and shoot it a ton and always thought about trying what you did ..but was unsure what the result would be...Tnx now I get the drift

Where I hunted in North Carolina, you couldn't fire a deer rifle off the ground. You had to be 10 feet up. So, everyone is shooting down and bullets won't travel as far. That's a good law for populated places. Well, the guys all carried pistols in case they walked into a deer going in or had to follow up a wounded one. I brought a .44 mag. I shot one doe with it and she fell dead. Guys carried .45's though. I'm sure they had good reason. They must have been capable of doing the job. I wouldn't shoot a deer at 50 yards with one, but if I bumped into one, I think I would.

Wow! That is not impressive performance! Wonder how hollowpoints would have done, like some Win Rangers.

Looks like I'll just stick to revolvers.

Why not, seems to have worked fine?

A couple of question, 1- where the Winchester white box ammo hollow points or FMJ 9hard ball)? 2- What did the wound channel look like?

I killed a Deer a number of years ago with the 45 ACP at a distance of 40 to 50 yards. Worked fine

Seems to have worked fine to me also.

What do you figure the doe weighed?

I've shot several with a 45 acp. I wasn't impressed with 185 gr. hollowpoints but had pass throughs with 225 gr hard cast at 900 fps. No expansion, but decent size hole all the way through.

Bullet choice is of course pivotal to exits with handguns and rifles for that matter. I have some 255 grain hard cast flat points from Buffalo Bore at 920 FPS that most certainly will exit on Deer

VERY unsportsmanlike thing to do, subjecting an animal to four shots to kill it. The weapon used proved itself to be totally inadequate for the task and should never have been brought into play.

I killed one...just one....with a .45. Forty years ago, on a lease we had on the south border of Ft. Hood. The old guys were all napping at midday, so I went out walking around. Jumped a big doe from under a cedar where she was taking her siesta and shot her at about twenty feet....hardball went through and through. She ran a good fifty yards before she keeled over, but she was stone dead when I got to her.

I'm not so sure. There were three shots and the first two were rapid succession with the third within a few seconds. Maybe the deer would have died after the first shot. Lots of hunters make the judgement to keep shooting as long as the deer is standing.

Winchester whitebox 230 FMJ's or hollowpoints? Either way, it sounds like they worked perfectly. With FMJ's, I would have expected an exit but not with the hollowpoints. Either of the first 2 shots would have probably done the trick by itself, but the follow-ups were good insurance. I've had deer run farther than 20 yards hit through the lungs with a rifle at close range. What were you expecting, her to flip upside down at the shot like she'd been hit by the hammer of Thor?

You were using bargain basement ammo and got good results. You don't have anything to complain about. If you want an exit, used a +P bonded hollowpoint or better yet a handloaded 230 grain cast flat nose bullet.

Post up the pictures of the recovered bullets.

Deer often run even when shot through the lungs with a rifle. Bullet holes through both lungs is fatal. The only sure instant death is with a CNS hit.

truthfully, i don't think you really need the six inch slide unless you just want it that is.
I am packing a glock 20 tomorrow up in bear country. I have a aftermarket kkm barrel for it, also a six inch aftermarket kkm barrel. I get a little more velocity by just switching out the glock barrel, and about another 75fps or so from the six inch.
but, i have xtp bullets 200 grain loaded to over 1200fps. I think that will give all the penetration needed. Or you could buy some of double tap or others if you dont reload.
Double tap makes a flat metplate heavy bullet hard cast for the 10mm that i think would go right through most anything.
translated tho i have the six inch barrel it aint on there much.

Crosshair, what you need is one of these:

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/p_4602.htm

Just use a full size 1911 in .45ACP and you will be alright.

I shot one with the exactly same gun...my Ruger P97DC 45.

I'm not sure that I would do it again, but that is because of my skill level. The doe that I shot was directly beneath my stand. I fired twice in rapid succession and she ran less than 25 yards before falling over dead.

12 yards with a 45ACP - that's OK, but on the marginal side as energy drops pretty fast.

TROLL...looking for a fight..!

20 yards and down is inadequate....?


If only alot of us could be that lucky. I see nothing wrong and I applaud you for making good kill shots.

That's an ignorant statement, and masterful hindsight.

He only shot three times and killed the deer as intended. From the sounds of it, any of the shots would have done the job. He just didn't stop at one, which is an excellent display of hunting and shooting skills.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks here that have seen more than one deer shot as many times with an "adequate" rifle.

David

What does energy have to do with anything? Penetration is all that matters and the 45 ACP has enough with a proper bullet

Sounds like some good shooting!

how big was this deer???? 1-2 shots from a .44 and mr moose ended up in the frezzer more than once...do the math.45 = dead deer @ 175lbs? sounds like it worked fine, .44 = dead moose 1000+,......... shot placement. ps( A .45 is made for 2 legged creeps

Well your choice has been discussed and cussed so far. Obviously a 45ACP is NOT the BEST choice of a gun to take a deer with. I use a 45 also but mine is in a Ruger Blackhawk 45 Colt stoked up with some pretty heavy slugs traveling as fast as I can safely shoot them.
I think my bottom line as far as a gun goes is that any gun that can dependably drive a bullet through the heart/lungs area certainly will kill a deer. That is regardless if I or anyone would recommend it or not, and a 45ACP would not get my wholehearted approval.

That are often larger than a Deer and certainly more dangerous. Thus the 45 ACP is adequate for Deer

If a 45 ACP is not adequate for Deer then how can it be adequate for 2 legged adversaries that can and are larger and far more dangerous?

Appears to be great performance for 45ACP. I've never shot a deer with the 45ACP, but have with S&W586 in 357 Mag and Ruger 41 Mag, and Glock 10mm. Shot a doe last year with my Ruger 44Sp at about 20yds. She acted like nothing wrong for about 5 sec, just stood with blood draining from both sides, then she keeled over. 10mm with 180gr HP gives the most dramatic wound channels and DRT kills.

I also do not go into the woods without a handgun on me.

First of all, it was Winchester Factory 230gr FMJ. The three shots went fast, two being a straight Tac-Tac to the chest. She then turned and took the last one on the other side. At that range and that size target (size of a dinner plate)tac tac dead center is no problem.

Ohio Regulations for equipment say:
"or handgun with 5-inch minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger,"

So 45 ACP is legal, it's just that the barrel of the P97 is .8 inches short. A 1911 would be legal.

The load was Winchester FMJ, which is rated as target ammo. I would not want a hollow point as that would trade expansion for penetration. The ammo was not up to par. I guess at 20 yards the 45 ACP, kept off the shoulder, would be OK with a stiffer load, maybe a load with a flat point.

I should add that the short track had no blood in it. The dress weight was around 105 pounds.

This Deer taken by my friends 13 year old daughter was shot trough the shoulder with a 270 130 grain Partition. The bullet did not exit, there was no blood trail and this deer went farther than you Deer went

I DIDN'T SAY IT WAS INADEQUATE,I SAID "NOT THE BEST CHOICE" THAT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE IN TERMINOLOGY

If it is adequate, then what is deficient? Or what is better, since dead is dead

Your capitol lock button broken?

oh gees, here we go again...22lr isn't the best round to use on deer. In fact it should be and IS a crime to use it.
Butt I have seen full sized bucks shot with it and take one step and fall.

It's a straight walled case too ! Just a bit under .357...

45 ACP? Sounds like way over penetration! LOL
Nice shootin!

22 LR is not a center fire which in my state matters, nor does it leave a 45 caliber or larger diameter wound depending on bullet selection

Two thoughts come to mind as I'm a .45ACP owner and was in the service when the .45ACP was the standard pistol.

The .45ACP load was designed to replace the ,38 Special to stop Moro warriors the were drug crazed and wore wet rawhide warped around their chest as protection. If it stopped Moro warriors and it did, the load will certainly kill any Whitetail deer you will ever shoot. If you think this load is inadequate for Whitetail deer than you need to reconsider the load as a CCW load.

There are many different hollow point loads that make good hunting loads. Federal, at one time, made a penetrator load that had a center post of lead that gave mass as the hollow point expanded. That load would be a good self-defense load and well as a deer load. Any hollow point that operated on that same principle would be a good self defense and deer load.

Crosshair,

Before this thread slides completely off an a tangent...

Using a .45 ACP with hardball you took a 12-yard broadside shot on a smallish deer. I would take the same shot.

All cartridges have limits so if anything in the scenario changes I can change my decision. I would never universally condone the .45 ACP as effective just as I would never do the same for a thermonuclear warhead.

Dead is dead.
Had dear go farther lung shot with a 340!
Good shooting, great eats.
Just be glad most of you can pack, let alone hunt with a handgun


Later....

+1..........

A pass through is a pass through, whether it is from a 45 acp or a hot loaded 45 Colt. The advantage of your hot Colt loads is on bigger game or bad angles on a deer, because it will penetrate further. On a broadside shot inside of 25 yards, with the right load, either will work on a deer. At least that has been my experience.

Well, I would never even consider it beyond 25 yards, no matter the load. I handgun hunted a lot years ago, used 45 colt and 44 mag with cast 300 grain flat point bullets, 357 with 175 grain flat point gas check bullets and some 10mm. I am used to an exit wound, which I got more often with those 44 and 45 loads than I do now with the 12ga Lightfield load. The exit wounds with the 44 and 45 cast loads, most impressive. My longest shot on a deer with a handgun was 125 yards, killed it dead quick. Then again that was a 14 inch contender, more of a short rifle than a handgun.

I don't care for jacketed bullets in a handgun for hunting, always believed in heavy cast.

DITTOS!!!!!

Here in Wisco my P90 would be illegal to use as the barrel must be 5 1/2" or more. Also the use of non expanding bullets is not allowed. I have a Ruger semi carbine in .40 I take out sometimes but that has a 20" barrel on it.

I"ve shot a bunch of hogs with the 45acp and a few deer. Never had an issue at all until I placed one too far back... same results as a rifle...

I've used mostly 230 jhps and 230 lead. Never had a failure to penetrate or kill.

Each animal is different. The deer ran because it had been ran already mostly.. adrenalin was up. 230 hardball does some weird things once it penterates but I wouldn't hesistate to use it out to 50 yards in a heartbeat, but I'd prefer other projectiles.

All handgun bullet sold in the US meet the legal definition of expanding. If handgun bullets do not meet the legal definition the ATF rule them illegal and can not be commercially manufactured are sold in the United States

Not really,

The Federal definition of armor piercing ammunition [18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B)] is important. It has nothing to do with testing of a cartridge's actual ability to penetrate body armor. The law classifies ammunition as being armor piercing based solely on its construction:

(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or

(ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

All handgun bullet sold in the US meet the legal definition of expanding. If handgun bullets do not meet the legal definition the ATF rule them illegal and can not be commercially manufactured are sold in the United States

you had better tell that to buffalo bore, bitterroot, and a whole bunch of others that are making hart cast flat metplate bullets. I guess they ain't aware of the above.
While i cast my own bullets, better tell some of the local places that are selling hard cast non expanding bullets.

As to the .45acp, is it ideal, no. Is it a long range option, no.
The deer was NOT shot at long range.
I have followed brain pierce for a lot of years in his writings in handloader.
To paraphrase him, a .44 projectile, or .45 projectile in .44 or .45 colt will penetrate clear through an elk at about 1000fps.
It isn't really necesary with reasonable distances to even hot load a .45colt. Now a .45acp at 230 grains is not far below a 250grain slug, and with factory ammo probably doing about 880fps.
at the distances quoted i don't see any issues.
i might add with the above i just picked up a couple of weeks ago a bunch of winchester fmj 9mm bullets that are sure not expanding.
we ought to start another thread about people shooting elk with a .243, or a .22-250.
or the guy i heard about a couple of days ago, a friend of a kid i was reloading with, that thinks a .338lapua is needed for elk.
I think personally i need a m79 blooper gun.

Congrats on the deer!

This is a great thread!

Way better than talking about wet paper bullet performance.

I am most surprised at the apparent limited penetration.

Maybe all round ball isn't alike.

What did the recovered bullet look like?

Does anyone have any experience with using GI hardball?

So you are admiting to taking the deer illegally?

Troll

Some of ya sure seem to get your panties in a wad over the silliest things.

I would like to congratulate the OP on the good shot he made with his 45.

Good chance half of those here whining didn't get a deer this year, nor can they shoot a handgun worth a dayam.
And couldn't have if given the same opportunity several times over.

I killed one whitetail doe with a 45 ACP (200 gain JHP). She fell at the shot. The distance was about 30 yards as I recall.

I reload two 45 ACP bullets. Both tumble lube types and both ahead of 5 grains of bullseye. One is the 230 grain TC



I wonder what that load would have done. The bullet is not all that hard.

Yes I am! Hey, why don't you call the ODNR and report that a guy online says he shot a deer with a gun that is .8 inches too short. I'm sure they will leap to investigate this hideous crime.
It might be worse than driving 6 miles per hour over the speed limit.

I think he was telling you, don't post stupid stuff on the net....

And what was stupid about my post?

ballisticly, a 12 yard .45acp is about the same as a lot of 1990's era .50 cal ML sabot loads at 125 yards or so. Certainly doable and telling someone its not wont change the reality that it is.

You said better guns/loads are out there, so there ya go. Lucky that you can carry and had a chance to try it.

I enjoyed the story. I especially liked the part where you took a dip before the shot. That gets the ole ticker going as well.

Congrats!

Deer, rabbits, they're all dead with a 1911 and good shooting, nothing but head shots...

Hey, lip puffed out, 10 day beard, wild wind blown hair, that deer probably stopped to say "Hey Sas, what up?"

Nice pictures. The old war-horse will do the job if the operator is up to it.

If I could carry my Ruger without it being concealed I'd do it. I had 3 deer come flying straight at my blind on my right side that I'd of had a fun time with. The .45 is fine in my book. Marksmanship is the key point.

The 45 acp is a poor choice for hunting anything over about coyote size and even worst for bear protection.The 10mm auto is a far better choice.The 10mm will often exit deer.Glad you got her and she didn't get away.

The 45 ACP will also often exit, bullet choice is the key. FMJ (round nose) bullets tumble often and lose penetration. The 255 Grain flat point hard cast will definately most often exit fired from the 45 ACP at 900+ FPS

No other deer tracks on the ground that I saw in fresh snow, getting away was not going to happen. I would have tracked her a very long way because I knew I hit her. I track every deer, even if I think I missed. Far enough to know I missed by indicators on the track.

Good shooting.

The load Derby Dude mentioned is the federal Hydra-shok, which is what I keep in my .45's for defense. If you believe the "one shot stop data" (a lot of people don't) .45 FMJ is about 70% reliable and good .45 hollowpoints are 90+% on bad guys.

You can also get +p .45's from Remington, Win, and Cor-Bon. I would not use them in an alloy framed gun.

I had this same dilemma on the new deer lease and wound up taking a 1911 with the Federal HS. I also have a couple 10mm's, and one of them may go next time. Besides deer we have a few hogs around, too.

I too have seen deer run a long way with blown up innards, so I think you did fine.

YEP!

Here is a pic of a fairly lucky shot. I told my partner that I would kill this jack with a head shot then did it. 63 Yards, through the noggin with my G21 and a Gold Dot.



I did not take that gun out of the holster the rest of the day for fear of screwing up.


BTW, I have shot so many vehicle struck deer with my issued .45 when I was a state trooper it is not funny. Many were not down, many had broken legs and were quite mobile. After shooting dozens of the things I can attest to the fact that a .45 is perfectly adequate for mule deer. Gold Dots and Hydra-Shoks are deadly on deer.

You folks have no idea how green with envy I am!
Thanks for the pics, gents.


Later....

So Mack, how far did you have to trail that jack?

What do you mean not really? I never posted anything about armor piercing ammo

Ha ha!

We had just walked back to the truck after a coyote calling session and the jack was hanging out a ways out there. I held just above his head, below the tops of his ears and pressed the kill switch. Afterwards I walked out to the rabbit with my Leica rangefinder and lasered back to the front of my truck.

It was a pretty lucky shot.

Dude, if you haven't figured... admitting to breaking the rules on public net... DUH! Will they go after ya? Maybe not... but we have had 2 wardens here that, had they seen that, would have prosecuted to the T. I don't agree, but then I"m not dumb enough to admit guilt in a public forum. thats way dumber than thinking shooting one with a 45 was dumb.

Yup, that's the one I was thinking about Federal Hydra-shok. Our local police uses them or did.

The 45 ACP is a much better hunting round than most think, the secret is the load you use. I took this boar at around 35 yard with the Hornady 230 Plus P XTP HP. The Hog dropped in his tracks. I wouldn't hesitate to hunt deer with my 45 ACP . Just keep your shots under 50 yards and you will be eating Back-strap.

Jared Schmidt killed a small buck with his Les Baer and a 230 grain speer gold dot loaded to Plus P. The wound channel and organ distruction was indistinguishable from similar shots with 44 magnums. JD Jones put several hardballs into a hog. One hit a heavy shoulder bone and bounced out but the others reached vital structurs and killed the hog.
"Deer often run even when shot through the lungs with a rifle. Bullet holes through both lungs is fatal. The only sure instant death is with a CNS hit."
This is completely true. There is an element of luck even with the most carefully placed shots. much of the talk about what is an adequate hunting load is just self-stimulation by windbags.

I killed a doe a few years ago with a Glock 36. One shot at 47 yards, lasered after the shot. The 185gr +p hollow point entered near the back of the ribs, traveled forward, through liver, and through one lung and stopped in the brisket meat. Looked like it could have been reloaded. Zero expansion, but still a 45 caliber hole through vital organs. She went less than 80 yards and piled up.
I was actually out looking for tresspassers and she about ran me over, but couldn't get a shot until she was out a bit.

Here is the recovered bullet from the hog. Not much expansion but 45 cal hole did the job.

18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B) is the law under which certain handgun ammo is banned. ATF points to if a handgun is made for that ammo, then it is handgun ammo. They selectivly enforce it. Under that law, all the chineese 7.62x39 ammo that had the pin in it was made illegal.

http://nucnews.net/2000/du/98du/981204du.laws.htm

Let them, and then let them prove I wasn't lying. First thing I'd say is that it was all bullchit. Got no problem bullchitting LE as they do it all the time. Deers ground up, got the tag too, nothing to prove. Don't get your panties in a wad over a barrel that's a smidgen too short.