To not hijack another thread:

Who has NOT designated themselves as an organ donor?

And..... why not?

I am a donor.
But, unless the process has changed, it's a lot for the family of the donor to deal with.
A friend's son was a donor and was killed in a sprint car race.
Every time the docs wanted to harvest an organs, they would call the family, tell them what they were taking.
Finally the father said enough. We cannot go thru this anymore.
About drove them nuts.

If it is still done that way the process needs some tweaking.

Specify ahead of time and let 'em harvest.

That's where it's at and it's a done deal.

Agreed. Leave the family out of it.

I'm not, because it's set up that the only people who can't benefit from this, are my family.

The doctors can get beaucoup bucks from the ins. companies to do the surgery, harvest and transport my organs.

The person getting the organ gets to live.

My family gives up an organ worth, realistically, $50k-??? tens of thousands, and gets a warm fuzzy feeling.

I'd consider doing it if they would at least cover my funeral expenses as part of the deal. But they don't.

I probably too would if it wasnt such a money makin scam. Just like giving blood. They charge some poor bastard a thousand dollars a pint, and all they pay for it is a cup of OJ and a cookie.
I realize the doctors and everyone needs to get paid, but it shouldnt cost someone there home to get an organ that was basically given to them. Helping other people is a noble thing, and if someone feels charitable enough to give up their organs, those involved should be just as charitable and not sock it to the insurance companies trying to get rich from it.
I suppose there is also the fear that if an organ donor is in an accident and clinging to life, the doctors would see dollar signs by selling your organs and not provide their best efforts to save you.

All I can say is "wow".

Off to work so no time to type much.

Some guy gets paid to do a job - the medical team - and someone else gets paid to process and store (expensive) a blood donation and you guys are letting selfish concerns about not getting your cut hold you back?

I'd encourage you guys to do some deep soul searching on this one.

Burner and Flinch, the system is what it is and we can all find our reasons, pro and con.

The issue is lives lost that go-a-wantin and needin. If you 2 are comfortable with your stated positions, so be it, it's your call to make. No slam meant.

I, for one, am damn glad and thankful for blood donors and i return the favor at every opportunity. After trauma and having my pressure drop < 25, twice, I was running outta gas real quick like. Also thankful that those 'money grubbing doctors' were able to put humpty dumpty back together again.

I on the no donor list. Like others here I figure that if everyone else benefits my estate should see at least $50,000.00 per organ.

I used to be a regular blood donor. Some years ago I had hip replacement surgery. As a precaution they drew two pints of my blood to be used if needed and charged $500.00 per pint to extract it. As it turned out I didn't need it and asked that it be donated to the local blood bank. They wouldn't take it because it "hadn't been processed properly". They flushed the last two pints of blood I will ever donate.

Maybe I should not say never. If a close friend or relative needs blood I'll do it. I'd stretch that to include Toot.

Well, I am on the other end of the issue...

Someone was kind enough to be a donor when they passed, and I have their bones in my back.

Not just organs, but bones, cornea, skin, ligiments, tendons...

I used to donate blood on a regular basis, but had to stop for 5 years, after the first major surgery I had. Don't know why either, but them's are the rules.

Tony

i'm a donor but had never considered the financial end of things till it was brought up here.


can see your guys point about the family of the donor being cut out of the loop.

but i'll remain a donor

I guess in the end i'd rather have the financial buggering than deny someone the gift of sight or life itself

tried to picture one of mine in need of an organ for a chance to live


some jabroni bites it in a car crash, but instead of organ donor being marked yes, it states no, not unless i get my cut

didn't play well with my moral compass

i'll remain a donor. YMMV


sides i've been well prepared for a financial buggering at the end

i've written checks to the IRS for what I one time prayed to gross

its on my licence that im a donor and my wife and brother know that if someone can use the parts feel free to cut me up, ill be dead, not like ill give a chit.....only good that came out of a cousin of mine dieing in a car wreck was he was able to help out a dozen ppl through organ donation....

My brother died last year at 65. We allowed them to have whatever they wanted but they were only able to use some skin tissue. They had to interview our mother for about 45 min to get all of his background but once that was done, we didn't hear anything more until we got thank you letters.

Good stuff, rattler and time can be of the essence for the organs part as well as for the corneas.

I had a malignant melanoma removed 22 years ago and can't donate blood or organs due to it.

I let my quack talk me into signing the donor card but I canceled it when I found out he was just out of cat food.

BCR

Both sides have valid arguments but I'll stick with the no donor side. It just doesn't seem fair that everyone except the most important person in the transaction benefits. How about $50,000 per organ to the donee's favorite charity? I'd do it and name the NRA.

There was a news article a couple years ago about some transplant lab that illegally used parts from someone who had cancer. They killed several recipients.

I have been listed as a donor for a long time, I intend to wear mine out so it may not be an issue. (no one plans to die early)
I just don't want my wife or kids to go thru what my friend went thru.

As far as the money goes, you are dead at that point, giving another the chance to live longer is a hell of a gift IMO.

This is my stand too

So it is a no for me for the reasons stated by burner

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20451456

the way i figure it, if it was my wife in need i dont give a chit bout the money......and having been cut on for other thing i dont want the lowest bidder removing my appendix let alone putting in a new heart for my wife.....[bleep] it, its only money and yah cant take it with you.....rather spend time with my wife than having an extra $50,000 sitting in a bank account.....so if someone else figures they can use parts of me when i kick off they are welcome to them....rather give someone else a chance of more time with their loved one than worry bout who is getting paid over it....

You can buy whatever you want in Hong Kong and in mainland China.

They've made it illegal for the little guy to benefit from it - the person who needs it MOST - the one whose family is dealing with their DEATH.

Sure, the guy who wants my heart, corneas, etc., needs it - but he's still alive. When this issue arises, my widow and kids will be figuring out how to live without my income, my support, and my help. They will be fighting the ins. companies to get whatever life insurance I have, and trying to come up with several thousand to either cremate or bury me.

I am glad to see I have so much support on this. I always found it strange that people don't see this side of the issue.

It's like the box on the tax return that says "Would you like to donate $ to the Presidential Re-Election Fund?" At that point, it's almost an insult. They've taken so much from me in taxes, why would I want to give any of it back? Same with the organ donation.

"Do it for free so we can profit or we'll guilt you into feeling like a bastard for wanting the best for your family at the bitter end."

Nah.

They did that recently with a kid. IIRC, they gave an 11 year old the lungs of a 50-year smoker with lung cancer. Got a big lawsuit out of it too, I think. I believe the kid may have died.

I can see your point, to a degree. But I have made the effort to obtain and maintain life insurance so my family doesn't have to worry about money when I croak off. Anybody who wants my organs is welcome to them.

Almost all, if not all, transplant centers are university hospitals that function on a very tight margin. The doctors who do the surgeries are faculty members, so their incomes are capped. The anti-rejection drugs provided to the organ recipients cost a fortune, and are supported/subsidized by whatever "profits" the transplant centers get from health care insurance. Many recipients do not have private health insurance, so the taxpayer and the university hospitals have to write their costs off in many cases.

The people who work on the transplant teams do it because they believe their work makes a real difference. They aren't doing it for money.

Worth repeating.

edited to add; There's also a group of 'money grubbing docs' out there named "Doctors without Borders".

I understand that, but many people cannot afford life insurance, and this is a way that they could help their families.

I am not saying that the people doing the transplanting, etc., are doing it to get rich, but they are getting paid, and the only person not doing so, and in fact PROHIBITED by law from doing so, is the person who has the organ.

It's the opposite of how every other system in our country works, and it still seems to me that it's more of a guilt trip by the donor crowd than anything else.

Their (government and medical industry) theory that selling organs would start a black market is ridiculous, as well.

There was no charge for the organs you received. Jus sayin.

I respect your thoughts and position on the matter.

I respect yours as well, and mine are constantly open to change. I have considered it a lot and may change my mind in the future. Participating in these kinds of threads helps me make informed decisions and get new perspectives.

The bold part is my reason.

Yours is the only reason, Ironbender,,,the only reason. What more can one do for their fellow man than to share what they, themselves had the privilege of being given and having enjoyed same up to the last tick of the clock?

Puck the money part of the equation as others more enlightened and experienced than me can deal with that and only hope it is done in a humane and judicious manner. That's all.

as i have told my wife the few times we have discussed each others wishes for when we die.....im going to be dead, i really dont give a [bleep].....cut out whats useful to someone, and then toss my arse in a coulee for the critters to gnaw on, i aint gonna notice the difference.....if she can find someone willing to pay $25,000 for my body cause they want one to hang in their tree as a halloween prop sell my dead arse......cremate me, sell me, dig a hole and toss me in it sans the coffin, throw me out on the prairie....ill be dead and will not give a chit.....

only real instructions i gave her outside the organ donar thing is do what ever is cheapest for her and go on and do what ever makes her happy.......

My wife donated bone marrow -- and saved a 56 year old grand-father's life.

Would this act have more or less meaning to her, or me, if someone had been waving a wad of cash in front of her like a used car salesman? Boy, we could have gone to Hawaii off some poor sucker's bad luck! Yeah, some guy is dying, can't support his family, and when he's down, squeeze him for as much as you can. Real Christlike, that.

It's hard for me to understand that someone can be so petty that they will take their organs and leave...... unless they get their pound of flesh.

YOU WILL BE DEAD. As far as leaving it in your estate: I raise my kids with the right values and life's skills, and send them to college. I carry half a million in life insurance ($26 per month -- less than I spend on targets). My wife and kids will do just fine when I'm gone, and a whole lot better than they would be after they'd have sold my carcass to the highest bidder.

I am a donor. When I'm gone, come and get it, before throwing it out to the coyotes.... JMO, Dutch.

Seems a few of us may be worth a hell of a lot more dead than alive, Dutch!!

She donated bone marrow while still alive.

I don't have so much of a problem with donating while still alive. Blood, plasma, etc.

I don't, because as a kid I had asthma and was always getting blood tests because of the meds I was on. Terrified of needles.

I'm just saying, I think the National Organ Transplant Act making organ selling illegal, is wrong, and as a result, I won't participate in that rodeo.

So, you're a little bit scared of nurses, and you're not willing to get over that in order to save someone's mother or father?

You and I see the world very differently..... JMO, Dutch.

Also opposed to it because of the waste after 9/11. I went and donated and saw it get thrown away by the Red Cross, even though they were still calling for more donations. Remember that fiasco?

Who's fighting?

The reason the Red Cross called for donations after 9/11 was because we all expected this it to be the first attack, not the only attack. Blood was needed in preparation of the attacks that never came.

Blood gets thrown out all the time. What's the problem? We've all got plenty to spare? It's no different than insurance. You have it, hoping it never gets used.

But, take your organs and go home. It's your right. Just don't expect many kudo's. JMO, Dutch.

I would donate if I could. My wife and family would take great comfort knowing part of me still lived on and that part was helping someone else.

you do realize its organic material with a shelf life?......donated blood lasts about a month before the rate of infection for the person receiving it goes way up......frozen plasma lasts about a year.....

I'd pity the poor schmuck that gets my liver!!!!!!

K

If'n you've been a drinker or doper, they usually won't use your tissues.
I work at a little hospital, so when someone dies here, all that can be used is bone, corneas, skin and ligaments. In order to use internal organs the "body" has to be kept "alive" on a vent and by-pass machine or the organs are damaged.

Also, as an aside, (at least in Indiana) just because you've signed your license, if your family says no at the time of death, your organs can't be used. So make sure THEY know your wishes and are willing to abide by them.

I understand the monetary part of this, but on the other side of it, I see much more good coming out of the current system than bad, so I'll just work within what we have.

I am a donor, but only my family knows, Under no circumstances has it ever been written on my DL.
If I die after puttin up a good fight, so be it. They are more than welcome to anything they need.
Just dont trust a doc. w/a rich buddy willin to pay 150g's for my damn liver.

Gunner

I am a donor.

I would be very worried about system where I am worth a hundred grand, dead.

I donate blood. I would be worried about the temptations to contaminate the blood supply if they gave five Benjamins to every donor.

I would be troubled by a system where the very wealthy would have a better chance at a transplant than a poor little kid.

I would be downright terrified by the prospect of facing the Almighty having failed to save someone else when it actually cost me nothing.

I hope if I go when my parts can still benefit someone, that every single person who has anything to do with it benefits greatly. I know it would be considerable consolation to my family if they do.

I am.Some of you may remember,I joined this forum while my wife was in the hospital having a liver transplant.She would not be here now,if not for someones generosity.I think that I would be happy to know that my parts saved someones life.Thank you to those of you who are,and for those that are not,please think about it. Lightman

I can say than the only good thing that came out of my son's suicide was that he was a Organ Donor. We did not recive a red cent and would not have taken it if offered. In fact my wife and I donated $500.00 to suport Donate life.

By the way the oldest organ donor in Co. was 86 years old and I believe there was a donor in Ca. that was in her 90's

It's NOT done that way Now.

I am an organ donor.

My thought is if im dead, i don't need my organs anymore. Wont cost me anything and may give someone else a chance to go on living a good life.

I have seen the good that comes from organ donation and would be honored that a piece of me should allow someone a fighting chance.


I work on an ambulance and as such we transport the harvest team and organs quite regularly to a local university hospital. As such i have had the opportunity to not only see the harvest team interact with the family, ive seen the harvest done. Our local group is nothing but class and as the doc said above as far as i know they are all faculty docs and do this in addition to their normal duties.

Ever heard the old saying, "two wrongs don't make a right."? I can't deny someone a chance at a better life if I can help out after I'm gone. Just because the dr. might make a buck off it? Put your feet in the shoes of the person that NEEDS that organ-don't you think they'd do anything they could to get it? Including paying for it?
What a selfish, callous response.

Just so I'm clear.....

Y'all won't give away something you have no use for, to save someone's life, because a third person will also benefit.

After reading the reasons for not donating an organ to someone which I see is mainly because of monetary reasons (the fact that someone else will get the money), I am astonished. First of all, how many of you have the skills to do the organ transplant like the doctors who dedicate their lives to do it do? If you or one of your family members needs one of those organs are you gonna be the first in line to even offer to donate say an extra kidney to save their lives. If you find out you aren't a match for your loved one are you going to expect someone else to donate one of their kidneys to save your family members life or just watch your family member die? So the doctors who do these transplant make some money doing them. They have spent many years learning to do transplants and their education is not cheap. They aren't in it for the money but for the good they can do for others.

Ultimately it is your decision whether to donate or not but from my perspective if you decide not to even find out if you are a match for someone you are related to or not, shame on you. I am not eligible for a transplant as are many others for other health problems, I'm not even sure if any of my other organs will be acceptable for someone else due to other health reasons but it won't stop me from donating them after I've died (hell I'm not gonna have any use for them anymore). When you think about organ donation remember it could be you or one of your family members that need an organ and let me tell you it isn't a good feeling finding out there isn't one for you or for other reasons you aren't eligible for an organ transplant. You may only have a few months or years left without the organ you need. I don't even have the choice of saying I don't want an organ transplant but there are many who are but there are no organs for them. It could be your family member or yourself that needs an organ, think about that when you say "Hell NO I'm not giving up part of me, even if I"m dead, to someone I don't know to save their life, SHAME ON YOU! Any one could need an organ transplant, you or one of your family members, think about that when you say I'm not donating unless I'm related to the person who needs one, you may not be match but some stranger might be! Are you willing to accept the stranger's organ if it is offered!

Sassy, that was a good post. Thank you.

You're absolutely right about the motivation of the people who work in transplant medicine. It's not a lucrative specialty.

Most transplant centers are based at universities. The doctors who do the work are mostly medical school faculty, and in most cases they are on salary and don't keep the money they bill for the procedures they do... the university turns those billings around and funds the transplant team with that money. In turn, that money benefits the transplant patients. It subsidizes the prohibitive costs of the anti-rejection and other medications, finances research studies, and pays for transplants for people who otherwise couldn't afford them.

I get transplant patients in my ER not infrequently. Whether they're fighting something simple like a urinary tract infection, or they're having problems with their transplant, I always call the transplant team in Madison to discuss management of the problem. Day or night, the people I talk to from the team are friendly, helpful, and obviously very dedicated to their patients. They are angels in scrubs to the people they help.

Sassy, I too am appalled at the attitude of some of the members who have posted on this topic, and I agree with you, they should be ashamed of themselves.

This quickly turned into the typical organ donation debate.

Someone asks "Are you a donor? Why not?"

If you say "Yes," everyone loves all over you, pats on the back abound, etc.

If you say "no," everyone goes off with "shame on you, you're an evil person, it's my job to guilt you into donating your organs." Whatever your reasons, religious, personal, or otherwise, you are akin to a mass murderer.

I didn't ask for, or expect, kudos. But I would ask for the same courtesy you would give anyone who makes a personal choice about something: don't name call and throw blame and shame around because of that.

If you don't like dogs, but you like cats, I'm not going to spend 6 pages of a thread telling you only horrible people like cats, and if you don't love dogs, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Right on. It's a personal choice much like abortion and many other things.

I have what I consider to be good reasons for not giving away something of great value to strangers. Now, if someone close to me needs a kidney, blood, marrow, or a hair transplant I'll do it. Just thought of this; why can't you put in your will that your organs can only go to family members at no charge? All others pay big bucks.

I would think, just a quick glance at the golden rule would be enough reasoning to solve this problem.

Tender, Burner? You are exaggerating the response to your position.

I'm the one that started the post asking the question because I could not understand why someone would choose to not donate.

I now understand better.

As one of the evil non-donors here, we all have our reasons for doing what we do. I could be 100% wrong in my decision, I can always change it. But right now I think that if I am generous enough to give an organ to a stranger, why isnt everyone else involved in the procedure just as generous and give there time and services to the ones who need it? I can give away something that I dont need anymore for free, but it wont get to those who need it until their insurance is charged 100 grand? If they even have insurance.
Charity is a wonderful thing, but it leaves a sour taste when your gift to someone in need is exploited by a system of greedy bastards. Yes my main issue is with the cost. I think its outrageous and wrong.
Shame on me for not wanting to participate in the scamming of those in need? Yea two wrongs dont make it right, but its not my system that is flawed. The only thing I can control is my own participation, and i have a problem being an enabler to something I see as wrong. When everyone involved in the process decides to pay it forward with the same generocity as the donor, I will be first in line to change my donor status.

Did you even read my post, flinch?

Nobody is being "scammed" by the majority of organ transplant centers, which operate at a break-even price point. The cost is high because the science and technology of transplant medicine is so advanced and expensive. Because the training of the people who take care of the patients is expensive.

The companies that make the equipment and medicines used are generally for-profit corporations, but the last time I checked the books "profit" wasn't listed as a crime in the USA, at least outside the commie mainstream media. You may have noticed that there isn't much of an organ transplant system in the former Soviet Union and other communist states.

...So, why not let the donor's estate "profit"? What's wrong with that?

Kind of a "there, take that" sort of thing, right?


I'm gaining a better understanding.

This is beyond money. An organ cannot even be bought if there isn't one available. I cannot imagine watching someone, I love, die for the want of something that is of absolutely no value to someone else. Why would anyone want to put another human being in that position?

Yea I read it doc, the price of gas is gonna hit 4 bucks a gallon this summer too. I dont think thats right or justified either.
If it was me that needed an organ to keep alive, but it would cost my wife and family our home and a lifetime of debt that we could never recover from, id say just pull the plug and let me go, rather than have my family be held emotionally hostage for everything we own.
Ofcourse if it was a loved one in that position, that decision wouldnt be so easy.
I can see both sides of this discussion, but I still think the costs are rediculous and take advantage of those in need when they are weakest.

Flinch, how do you earn your living?

Flinch
Problem with the donors' estates making scads of cash off the organs is the very simple fact it will only raise the price of transplants and multiply the very thing you hate...
art

I gave my left kidney to a friend. Best thing I ever did. I was not going to see his daughters grow up without a dad. 2002 and we are both still doing well.

First class, Sir!

I realize the doctors and everyone have to make a living, But being bent over and raped is closer to what is happening in the healthcare industry.
Just for example- in my area we pay taxes for emergency services,(police/ambulance/fire rescue)yet the bill for an ambulance ride to the hospital, which is only 10 miles away, costs the patient 900 dollars.
Justified? You dont think this also happens to everyone in need of somekind of healthcare or transplant recipient?
Oh yea the insurance company will pay it right? Not if they can help it. IMO there is something wrong with this picture.

Flinch, now we can agree; there is something wrong with the system. It's called domination by government and other second party payers. If health care really operated in the free market, it would be cheaper and more responsive to the patients needs.

Not donating does not fix that. It just means that when the one you love most needs it, they won't get it - at any price.

No doubt that the healthcare system, as a whole, needs reform.

What does that have to do with organ donation - helping out a fellow human in great need - really?

I can't donate blood or any organs or any other body parts now or when I am dead. I was exposed to Agent Orange while in Viet Nam. My body if full of AO Dioxins that are migrating to liver, heart and pancreas. I am diabetic and have pneuropathy in feet,legs, hands, sexual organs and rectum due to AO exposure. Next I suppose will be some sort of cancer, probably prostrate or liver.

And yes, I am classified by the VA as disabled and getting compensation. But I guarantee you it ain't enough to put a dent in medical bills.

Now you are confusing the issue by bringing in issues that are not related. And to a very direct point an ambulance is not like a taxi... They cost a lot more and are staffed by people with better training (we hope) and all of that costs a lot. I doubt 900 covers the cost a basic ambulance ride if you add the time the machines and people are idle, but waiting... and gas is the cheapest part of the whole equation.

AlabamaEd, a very serious THANK-YOU for your service. You have already donated your whole body, for which this nation should be eternally grateful. As far as healthcare goes, we as a nation, owe you all you need and nothing but the best. Having said that, I think you would get better if the government did not run it. Again, a sincere thanks.

No one can measure the compensation I have received, sans $.

I know im just being stubborn and pig headed about it, but I hate the idea of participating in the overcharging/scamming of services for those in need. To me its like driving the get away car for a bunch of bank robbers, only its not a bank their robbing, its some poor bastard that needs help.
I would have no problem giving my organs if I knew the recipient wasnt going to be raked over the coals financialy. I know that doesnt make much sense, as its thier decision to have the surgery or not and the recipient would have some idea of the costs. Its just the thought of some cigar smokin corporate a-hole, cashin in on my gift to someone who needs it, that doesnt sit well with me.

Thanks for your comments. I do receive some required meds from the VA, but they do not pay for or provide any of the expensive tests that are required.

Flinch, I'd encourage you to go back and read the Doc's post on the cost issues.

The operative words here are, "...someone you love". I have no problem with that and would be first in line but not for a complete stranger. Why should my heirs pay for a stranger's new heart?

Guys,
Thanks for this post, I just signed the back of my drivers license.

Ed, thank you for your service and I'm sorry for the price you have had to pay.

Flinch, I'm trying to patient here, but you keep restating your prejudiced and ill-informed assertion that somebody is getting rich in the transplant industry. Who exactly is the this cigar smokin corporate a-hole you claim is getting rich off these patients? How do you know that they are overcharging? You don't know these things because you haven't done a shred of research and haven't provided a smidgeon of proof that this is the case. I have explained in my posts that transplantation services are expensive for a reason, and nobody is getting rich off these people.

I don't care if you don't want to be an organ donor. It doesn't matter to me. I don't think you're evil for choosing not to donate your organs.

But it does bother me when you persist in writing things that are flatly false.

When my fiancee was in the hospital with our son, they gave her 800mg ibuprofen for pain. I think they gave her one every 12 hours for a total of 2 days in the hospital.

The itemized bill to the ins. co. was $80 for those 4 pills.

I could have bought a case of ibuprofen and a case of beer with that same $80.

Show me that the people doing the transplants really are doing it at cost, and I'll start to warm to the idea. Or are they billing the Ins. companies ridiculous amounts for their "specialized knowledge and magical 800mg ibuprofen?"

Right, I would donate to a family member without question.

The argument put forth here is akin to what happened with my grandfather's house when he died.

Someone could easily have come along and said: "Look, that house is of no value to you -- the owner is dead, you don't need it, you all have houses. Just give it to me, I really need it for my family."

Would you sign over the deed?

We sold the house and split the money among our surviving family. It was the only inheritance we got from a 92 year old WWII Vet and POW who had lost the rest to the nursing homes and the "benevolent" health care industry.

Here's one example:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=1514702

"The Wallet Biopsy."

Spanokopitas, ol bean - to the unbelievably, overwhelming number of people (potential donors) in this world, your loved ones are the strangers!

It won't cost them a dime to save another person (with your other wise rotting carcass) whose loved one may in turn save them. Even the embalmer won't charge an extra nickel. ;-{>

There are things that are a far bigger rush, in this old world, than making dough.

Im not trying to test your patience doc.
The government pays 600 dollars for a hammer, I think the healthcare industry isnt much different. If an insurance company will pay it, it sets the price for everyone to charge that much.
Im not calling you a liar,and I mean no offense, but its very doubtfull you will convince me that the costs for healthcare is fair and justified. If it costs the professinals that much to operate, then they are gettin burned too.

Burner, your link reinforces what Doc said - not every institution turns away those who can not pay.

Do you believe that every institution can afford to give care away?

And your article does not reference any price gouging or corporate fat-cats.

Being poor sucks. I know, I was raised under those circumstances.

Absolutely no bearing on my willingness to donate, though.

ive got no problem throwing a finger to the system and all that, hell i support it.......problem is with burner and others stance is the only person they are really throwing the finger to is the poor [bleep] laying in the hospital bed that could use a new heart and such.....its one of those situations where a person opting out doesnt change a thing.....

I'm merely showing that in a truly donated-time situation, no one would be examined for fiscal competency before receiving a donation.

I'm just saying that if enough people felt strongly enough to stand up and say "We Will not donate until you fix the system," the system might get fixed.

I'm not going to blindly sign away the donor thing when I get my driver's license because the State wants me to do it without a fight. I would rather try to educate people and change things. God forbid I die between now and then, I don't want to be part of the system that I don't support.

Burner, we do live in a capitalistic society, I'll give you that one. Wouldn't want it any other way. I'm just not clear on where all of these donations of time and facilities could come from on an unlimited basis. Obama Care?

As far as the State having an interest in your organ donation , I'm not really making that connection. Do you think the State cares - beyond providing a vehicle for making your donation wishes known.
What is Big Brotherish about providing a donor recognition system?

What is wrong with simply allowing someone to charge? That way all you altruistic folks could still give away your parts and get your warm fuzzy feelings and us nasty old Capitalists could enrich our heirs. What's wrong with that?

Why don't those doing the transplant donate their services? Could it be that most surgeons are rich Capitalists?

More power to you if you can get someone to pay. That kind of leads to your second paragraph, though.

Why would you expect surgeons to donate their labor? They are doing a job that they have trained long and hard for - and I do suspect that most of them have a strong appreciation of the concept of capitalism.
Do you donate your means of income to anything in any appreciable sense?

Trap, old boy, you are right it won't cost them a dime but it will cost their heirs many dimes.

I like Burner's house analogy, it rings true. When you go to the junkyard do they give you the scavenged part for free? Why not the dead car has no use of it?

Do you really put houses and junk cars on the same plain as donating organs to save or improve a life.

Like I said, I understand now why some don't donate.

It's the same straw man argument you are using.

Especially houses - why not just give your unneeded home to a homeless family that could use it?

Enriching and improving a life. Same thing. But no one does that. The Organ Donor thing has been so co-opted that it's considered bad form NOT to want to give away your organs.

Burner, we do live in a capitalistic society, I'll give you that one. Wouldn't want it any other way. I'm just not clear on where all of these donations of time and facilities could come from on an unlimited basis. Obama Care?

As far as the State having an interest in your organ donation , I'm not really making that connection. Do you think the State cares - beyond providing a vehicle for making your donation wishes known.
What is Big Brotherish about providing a donor recognition system? [/quote]

They have done more than provide a recognition system.

They spend beaucoup bucks on advertising campaigns, billboards, etc., trying to convince people to sign up for it.

They also came down firmly on the issue when they passed laws making it ILLEGAL to sell organs or even be compensated beyond an undefined "reasonable amount," meaning a few hundred dollars to cover funeral expenses in PA.

This creates a false economy. A government system that supports big Pharma/big medicine by providing a steady stream of free organs, while limiting anyone else's ability to engage in capitalism or to buck the system by using legislation that makes doing so illegal.

Like it or not, the state supports organ donation, and actively discourages organ sale.

boils down to there is a hell of alot of overhead in the system.....once a donated heart is out of the body you have 4 hours to get it pumping again.....what does it cost flying out organ recovery teams and flying them back with the recovered organs? even if everyone donates their time along with the organs the overhead costs of the system is huge......

[quote=Monkey_Joe] Do you really put houses and junk cars on the same plain as donating organs to save or improve a life.


Not at all. I put houses and junk cars in the same category as dead bodies, neither has use for its "parts". However those parts are valuable to others and their use should be fairly compensated in the free market.

If everyone else involved gets compensated what is wrong with compensating the donor's estate? No one has yet answered that simple question.

How can the guys who are so appalled at the price, want to run it up further and more out of reach of the poor?

They never do, man. They just come back with "You're horrible for even thinking about compensation when someone else's LIFE is in YOUR HANDS."

It's always "donate, or you're evil."

I can rarely get into this discussion with co-workers or others as a result of this tendency to whitewash the debate in favor of the donor crowd.

As someone who works in the Healthcare industry i have a good idea of the overhead involved. The machines aint cheap, drugs aint cheap, and peoples time isnt cheap. That said i seriously doubt that anyone in the healthcare industry outside of drug companies and the machine manufacturers are getting rich. The system is indeed broken, but its not at the procurement/ implantaion aspect of organ donation.

From my view i cant bring myself to possibly deny another living person a chance to live due to keeping something i cant use, money be damned.

Do Drs, Nurses , EMT's, Paramedics, etc get paid fairly well, sure but the initial education cost a good bundle and all are required annual training that they typicaly cover out of pocket. So yeah the costs of healthcare are high, you pay for the product or procedure, but also your paying for the person to know how to do the job. You dont just call your buddy with his crayons and pad of paper to design your next house, you pay someone who went to school, has a liscense to provide that service and is hopefully very proficient at what they do.

Also most all hospitls, ambulances, care facilities etc have contracts with the insurance companies. Next time you get a medical bill, look what the charges are and whats "allowed" (this is the contracts i spoke of). I can tell you that the collection rate for billed sevices is typicaly around 28-40% across the board before charity care (write offs)is figured in. As i said before noone outside of the drug companies and the machine manufacturers are getting rich. The proof of such is easily discernable based on posted profits of these service providers.

Actually, I did answer.

Trapper, you and I need to get together some time and talk trapping.

To answer your question - I suspect they have trouble grasping the concept.

This is neither an argument for or against paying the donor's estate.

If everyone else gets paid, why not the donor?

Some of ya'll are greedy, sorry bastards and I pray no one in your families ever have to get a donor organ. Doc Rocket is right, as is my mother. This is why we are where we are now, a bunch of sorry greedy bastards. You really should be ashamed of yourselves...seriously. Les

Any time. ;-{>

PS Les is right.

Yep.

I understand now.

So what kind of trapping interests you?

Is there no answer to the question about compensating everyone EXCEPT the donors estate?

Sorta reminds me of jury duty. Everyone in that courtroom except the jury and the defendant is being compensated.

I suppose those who support free replacement parts would also support a 100% Death Tax rate. After all money is of no use to the rotting corpse. Why not give it to some worthless living blister and get that warm fuzzy feeling?

How about...
"Just because I say so."

Is there any sort of logic buried in your self-centered babble?

Whatever, your parent must be proud, the doctors are not making money on these transplants, hell, I was ready to give my Mom one, she isn't eligible, but if anyone needs parts when I'm gone, they are free to have them. Real christian of you Spankopitas. As Doc Rocket said most of these transplants are done in University hospitals, which are funded by grants. As I said, your family must be proud of you.

Trapper, please hold this thought, but I took great pride in catching a coyote or two.

Does the word "donor" mean anything? How about donate? If I donate I give it away...free...nada.

Hello all,

I am an organ and blood donor. Because some antibodies and other things are not in my blood, most of it goes to new borns babies, so I think that is cool. Knowing that if I die, someone might get to live because of my wish to help, that is cool too. I think some things are more important than $money.

Well said Deerskinner

Good show!
+1

And I agree with you.

You are right.

I don't feel like I have any moral highground on anybody due to my views on this, or their oposing ones. For me I'm a donor, hope it helps somebody out.

I'd love for my family to be able to profit from it, but that's not the way the system works. Maybe one day it will work that way, but i'm not going to let that stop me from donating.

I have no problem at all with that.

Doesn't make any difference if they are done in university hospitals or back alleys you can BYSA the surgeon and staff ain't working for free.

Notice what happens when logic cannot be answered the response descends to the ad hominem. Personally I don't care whether you donate your organs before or after death but I would appreciate a more civil response to my thoughts.

Do you think you deserve a more civil response?

At some point we have to abandon the PC "I'm alright, you're alright" crap and openly acknowledge a piece of [bleep] when you see one.

As tough as it is to respond to you in a civil manner I did.

You still haven't answered my civil response.

Actually it was a blatant hijack effort because I had given up on some of the sadder responders. Kinda thinking, discussing dirt-hole sets might be more edifying and uplifting.

Joey be wit ya bud.

Good old John Prine had it figured out 35 years ago. I'll try a link
John Prine--Please don't bury me

I'll try to type this slow so you can keep up... maybe...

Transplant Doctors do their work as a living... They charge about what other specialists charge in the same general areas. They go to far more school than the average for many extra years... Years they could be making an income rather than building a huge debt.

I cannot imagine singling them out as the only doctors that should not be paid... Or paid like other specialists...

Donors certainly have no use for their organs and the estate has no use for the organs either. The heirs may well expect/demand/ or at least want money for them, but realisticly they do not want the actual product/part involved.

That is the huge difference.
art

Certainly the heirs have no use for the raw product, much like they have no use for the house or other junk left behind, but they might, just maybe, possibly, have use for for the money that junk might bring.

Would you say that they should should be prevented from selling all detritus left to them or only the physical parts of their dearly departed? To me this is the top of a very slippery slope. What's next a 100% Death Tax?

Would the phrase "love your neighbor as you love yourself" not be applicable? FWIW, Dutch.

Sorry if I missed in another thread but when you mark "donor" it does not mean you will end up giving your parts to someone else that needs it to live. In California, donor simply means you are donating your body to science. You could end up on a slab in a junior college anatomy class, your head at a plastic surgery class your bones turned into a skeleton or Aberdeen proving grounds as a blast dummy.

In my limited experience in the medical field very few people are used as donors in the manner in which we think. A lot of things need to go right with regard to how they died, how quickly they were transported etc. More than a few Dr.s have commented that with the implimentation of mandatory helmet laws a lot of donors were lost because someone may not survive the head trauma but they could be kept "alive" long enough to ensure adaquate perfusion to the organs which kept them viable for transplants.

Sorry if this offends people to know what most donors are used for. With that in mind I am still a donor, I am thankful for those that allowed me to gain my medical knowledge by giving their last gift.

Would the phrase "private property rights" not be applicable? FWIW, Spano.

Absolutely. So, that's what it comes down to. To you, is money more important than living a Christian life? FWIW, Dutch.

There is no moral high ground in any of this. It is all about one of the deepest of personal choices in life and these vary for the stated reasons given.

I've gained a lot from this thread, especially from the perspectives of those who work in the medical field. Good stuff.

edited to add; And also from those who have given and received or have/had loved ones so affected.

The two are not at all incompatible. Both are equally important.

Specify - "Organ Donor". That's what's on my family members licenses. I think you might be speaking about donating ones self to medicine. I got no problem w/that either.

Back when I was a test pilot for the Trojan Condom Corp>

"Organ Donation" was viewed in a different context.

GTC

I think "organ donation" vs. "donor" vs. "body to science" may be used interchangably depending on what State you are in.

I *KNOW* from personal experience here that they only take certain parts from our bodies, I have not personally watched the harvesting, but others I work with have, and they said it was GRUESOME to watch.

By your logic, a family that inherits a farm, but that lives in downtown Manhattan and doesn't know the first thing about farming, "certainly has no use for their Farm and the estate has no use for the farm either."

So they should give it away.

Right?

They may "well expect/demand/ or at least want money for it, but realistically they do not want the actual product/part involved."

The difference is that there are laws against selling organs, there are no laws against selling land.
I know there is a black market for organs. If sale of organs was legal, I think the incidence of people waking up in bathtubs of ice would increase.
Selling blood is different, as your body constantly regenerates your blood. Although your liver can regenerate and you really only need one kidney and one lung...I think this would be full of problems, ie-what happens if you sell one kidney then have kidney failure? Do you have to buy another one? But gee, I just sold the other one....

The biggest problem with selling organs is not that it's going to create a theft problem, it's that people then have an incentive to lie about their medical history. As in "gee, if I check "no" here my kids don't get to sell my kidney for $50,000 my liver for $20,000 for each lobe, my heart for $100,000, my cornea's for $10,000....". I'll just check "yes".

One person "forgetting" about a little indiscretion, and you're implanting a bucket full of organs with potentially a nasty pathogen into 8 or so immune-suppressed recipients. Not saying it doesn't happen today, but money tends to bring the worst out of people. JMO, Dutch.

You must be mistaken....people wouldn't lie to make money...

Not suggesting legalizing sale.

Merely suggesting legalizing the payment of deceased donors families.

It would work much like any other inheritance. If you wished to provide your organs on death, you would have to have it set up so that a death certificate or proof of death was available, etc., in much the same way that anything else is probated or inherited.

People can do that anyway. People can walk around being a donor not telling if they've had unprotected sex in the last month, used IV drugs, or whatever.

Is there no testing? Can Magic Johnson donate his organs on his word without ANYONE ever running a basic battery of tests for HIV, STDs, etc., etc.?

Burner, that is some lame-assed logic.

Mom and dad are both dead. They owned farms in different states - split between 6 kids.
Right now I am sitting on a lump in my right pocket caused by the rental checks I picked up Saturday. My 1/6th of them, anyway. Some of the best hunting ground in the mid-west, too.
Doesn't matter where I live, I can gain benefit from the farms.

We did not let the farms rot in the ground. We are benefiting from them, so are the farmers.

The real bottom line here is that our decisions related to the disposition of the land does not in any way directly affect anyone's chances at a better life from a health stand-point.

Mom and Dad's organs are through benefiting them. I can't profit from them financially, they will not do me a bit of good from a personal health standpoint, but there is a chance that they might directly benefit someone else. Maybe as nothing more than a lab rat. I do not personally benefit from them.
I do not see that as any justification to stomp my feet like a small child and proclaim that if I don't get "none" ain't nobody getting "none".

I do not understand the small child foot stomping mentality.
If you do not want to donate, fine, just say that. The lame excuses don't read well.

BTW, before someone posts another lame excuse - I am in no way advocating the rental of harvested organs. Just thought I'd beat Spanky to the concept.

It's not foot stomping any more than the people such as yourself who are claiming that if we do not donate for purely altruistic reasons, that we are somehow akin to murderers or are greedy bastards, etc., etc.

Talking about "not reading well," this post from you is a perfect example of that.

Quit reading stuff in to what I post.

I said early-on, I don't care if you do - or do not - for your own personal reasons, and I do not care if you can find a way to profit.

I will laugh at your foot-stomping justifications, though.

GTFOH. Exchanging money for goods is selling. The families who sell are not donors, they are peddlers, hawkers, barkers at the Midway. "come get your kidneys, here, best kidneys around". Maybe they can have a buy-one, get one free sale!

Like Joe, I have no problem whatsoever with someone not wishing to donate for personal, religious or selfish reasons. My wife is signed up on the marrow donor registry -- I decided it's not for me.

We're smacking you on the fingers because you're pretending your refusal to donate is about something it's not. JMO, Dutch.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2010-02-24-bonemarrow24_CV_N.htm

Looks like I'm not the only one who thinks that paying for "donations" might be a good idea.

P.S., there is a fine line between compensation of the family of a deceased individual for their organs, and a living person intending to remain living and selling off organs to make extra cash.

It would be very simple to prevent this.

You obviously do care, or you would not continue to chastise me about it.

What did you want when you started this thread? Everyone to agree with you? I'm confused if your mind was already made up as to why you would even bring this up, unless you just wanted people that you could disagree with.

I posted the question because I did not know the answer.

Honestly, I expected some sort of religious reasoning, comments like "it creeps me out", etc...

The foot stomping part I absolutely did not expect.

Like I said in earlier posts, now I understand better.

Gents,
along the lines above, some of you may have read the recent L.A. Times article concerning bone marrow transplants and making them commercial like blood/plasma donations/sales. Up to 4k folks/year die from lack of bone marrow transplants, waiting on altruistic donors and a move is afoot by the waiting persons and their families to get these classified as a "regenerative tissue/fluids issue" like blood/plasma, thus compensated.

The new procedure for this is actually minor and relatively painless as compared to the "old way".

Spano, bender, et. al are on to something here with 'payments for parts' and it sure works for me. You can probably Google that article, was in Sunday's newspaper.

Along the lines of cardiovascular transplants;

www.investorsinsight.com

"Want a new cardiovascular system?"

Jus sayin.