Any canoe experts here?

Hey white
I am not an expert but I know what works. Did alot of hunting out of one and still do. its fun to jump shoot ducks in one. I got alot of deer in one but the great state of michigan put a stop to that. We used to sneek up on the deer and pop them in the head with a pistol or shotgun if on the left side pistol on right. Fast jumpshooting with ducks. Me and a hunting buddy goes down drainage ditches and the more curves the better. double barrel works the best. put a carpet in the bottom if you have an aluminum one because the noise. if you have one of those composite ones you wont need that. I got mine at a garage sale and that was 15 yrs ago and still ok I put more scar stories on it and a little paint ( camo ) custom paint job and have fun. if you want stability make an outrigger for it. if you want to trol get a good garage sale motor and battery and strap it the back and go. dont get an outboard. you will be surprised at how fast you will go with an electric. if you are by yourself use the battery as a counter weight in front. if you are looking for a new one look no farther than an oldtown or a myers ( aluminum ) square sterns are better for the motor stuff but my paddle add on works ok. I can go on and on but let us know what info you need.

Bearbeater

wellll.....
whatcha want to know, whitetail???

expert covers a lot of ground, but my family spends a lot of time on the water in canoes, and various forms of paddlecraft....
matter of fact my kids are out unloading the truck now as we just came off the river....

Hey Tail

what part or nearest town are you in wva I was born and raised there till I escaped. send me a PM

Bearbeater

whitetail,

Get one big enough so you can sit in the middle while two young bucks paddle you around; and enjoy doing it.

Ya know, I ain't an expert either but the missus and I did spend about four hours today motoring around in our Old Town Discovery 13 ft canoe. Short and wide, dog slow to paddle with a 40" beam, but it does row all right and a 40 lb thrust electric Minn Kota can move it along right handy while making nary a sound. Most of the time we're only using about half that thrust, but a motor that size does allow you to get out of the way of powerboats and such, buck a headwind or move upstream. Also the motor is salt water spec, which is important (some ain't).

The canoe can carry 800 lbs but finding space to put 800 lbs of anything would be a problem, on the other hand it only weighs 80 pounds which means it is pretty easy for one guy to carry, which is sometimes important.

Stay away from aluminum, too durn noisy.

Old Town offers a line of "sporting" canoes aimed at hunters and fishermen, all have a flat bottom (including mine) for stability.
http://www.otccanoe.com/canoes_sporting.php

Birdwatcher

All,

I have spent allot of time on the water but mostly in V and flat bottom boats.

Would mostly be used for river trips (fishing & hunting) with no more than class II rapids.

I am drawn to the square end types for possible use with a motor but wonder how they actually handle.

Also wondering if its woth the money to go kevlar. Weight is not a big issue but it could be at some point.

About 1/2 the time I would be solo and others with 1 adult and a kid or dog.

I know this is general info but have spent hours on the web looking and think I might need some advice to help me eliminate what WONT work.

What contributes to stability and what makes one better in rapids?

whitetail - I am no expert either, limited experience and that is flat water paddling, but I know a bit. Its the same old issue: What will do best for a few different applications. Stability, maneuverability, shipping limits. If you are really going to be solo alot, depending on the canoe, you need 15 ft or less, light weight, at least some rocker, and a moderately round bottom hull. However, I do have a fiberglass 16 footer, weighing 63 lbs, that I can paddle well on flat water. Also, for solo, you will need to learn a few of the techniques, if you don't already know them, otherwise any canoe will be difficult to handle. It will also need to be a symetrical hull shape for going both directions equally well. The canoe with these characteristics will often be fine for two paddlers, but any trip over a day or two will require room for more gear, then you are in the 17 ft category. Kevlar is great, but fragile, and is appreciated by those that do a lot of portaging.

Hope this helps, sse

hey whitetail,

there are a lot of great canoes out there, from a lot of different sources. we- no-nah canoes has a lot of good advice, on their website, about buying canoes... all of it is geared towards buying a we-no-nah.... by the way, they are a great company and have a lot of options... for a time, wenonah was all that i would own...

bell is another good company which produces a superior product, and stands behind it...

if class II rapids (or even class I) were a regular thing, i would avoid a square stern canoe....
i avoid them anyway because i enjoy paddling, and, for my money, there's never been one made which paddled right...

perhaps my personal favorite canoe today is my kippewa, made by swift canoe out of dwight, ontario. it handles superbly. i can put people in it who have never paddled anything before, and they have a great time... it has what the experts call "an easy turn of speed", which means that it paddles efficiently and easily... mine is a glass- kevlar hybrid, with wood trim and weighs about 55 lbs.... i know nothing about their service or how they stand behind their product, as i have only had this one for 12 years and am just breaking it in... and i'm the only person that i know who has one...

if you want to truly enjoy a canoe, do not get one built for heavy hauling, or wilderness tripping, as they are too deep, and sit too high in the water when lightly loaded, as for the average day trip... this causes them to catch more wind and control becomes work...
the average day tripping, or touring canoe will carry enough gear for 2 paddlers for a long weekend, or a short week.

a good canoe will provide you more enjoyment, and cause you less frustration, and worry, than any other type of watercraft.....

on average, i would steer a new, or casual buyer towards bell, or wenonah companies...
i think that they both have hulls geared towards hunting and fishing...
a glass canoe, built for touring is what most people want...
i think a web search of any of the companies mentioned would turn up a lot of info...

i have dealt extensively with wenonah...
bell has a great reputation as well...

both companies have people who will answer questions on the phone, and who know canoeing...

there is a paddling specialty shop in madison wisconsin called Carl's Paddlin' ... they are the true experts and have a wealth of integrity... a web search under that name would be productive as well...

have fun.... john w

No expert, but I do have a 17' Wenonah Sundowner tandem in Royalex and a Wenonah Rendezvous solo in Royalex. Mostly daytripping with some moderate (up to Class III) whitewater. I try to do a weekend trip each on the Flambeau, St Croix and the Brule, and a week long BWCA trip every year.

john - I really enjoyed just perusing your response. Many good points there. My 16 footer is a Swift Algonquin. I think this company really excels in their non-symetrical hull boats, such as yours, I just don't happen to prefer them. I have been up to the Swift facility in Dwight more than once and they are pretty nice people to deal with. They fixed a few little exterior hairline cracks with no questions asked. I have the luxury of driving over there and I might tend to go with an American product if I coudn't do that.

Regards, sse

the kippewa is what i use for a solo boat as i am a VLP (very large paddler), it comes with a kneeling thwart, designed for the guy who wants to use it solo. i am more comfortable on my garage engineered, structural foam kneeling saddle... which i can use in almost any tandem boat.....

for a paddler who might see shallow water frequently, the asymmetrical hull offers some additional efficiency with little penalty..... john w

A few years ago I wanted a canoe for exactly your purposes and after some research settled on the Mad River Tahoe 14. Short for lighter weight, easy turning, use in smaller waters, and beamy for stability in fishing and hauling heavy loads like big game. It paddles well solo but will take two people and gear, flat water or class II rivers edged into III when solo for fun, without serious gear. Old Town now builds something almost identical in a bit heavier weight and half the cost, as do some other companies. I didn�t plan to portage but car topping alone made me want one under 40 lbs. and the Tahoe is a little heavier than that.

Aluminum grabs rocks like sticking on the brakes. Royalex and the plastic skin types slide over rocks slick. Kevlar and glass are somewhere between and they chip on rocks, plus are more expensive. I prefer to step out and get in glass boats with the boat floating to protect them rather than nose up onto gravel bars. If you go glass or Kevlar, add a two inch wide layer of protection on bow and stern, above waterline to a foot or two back on the keel or centerline to absorb the abrasion real use causes.

A keel on the bottom stiffens cheaper canoes, and makes them paddle straight in flat water like on a rail. That rail is bad news in moving currents because it keeps on track and either doesn�t let you turn quick as needed, or the swirling currents grab it, such as when crossing an eddy line (from current into an eddy or vice versa) and try to flip the canoe over. In current it feels like a weird remote is controlling the canoe rather than you, overriding your steering. That grabbing action as you cross an eddy line happens with all canoes but is MUCH worse with a keel. I personally dislike canoes with a keel, though have paddled plenty of them.

Rocker helps turn quick in swift water, so true whitewater canoes are shaped like a banana. You probably want a slight bit of rocker for what you describe, say an inch to an inch and a half, with a smooth bottom slightly arched or bowed for strength without a keel. With a little bit of rocker you can turn easier in moving water, but you will have to learn to paddle straight, which will take an hour or so of practice to get fairly good at it. If you paddle once a month in a few months you will paddle straight without conscious effort.

The early Coleman canoes included every bad feature you can put in a canoe, but they are bomb proof sturdy and would do for your purpose. They were designed to nestle one inside another for efficient shipping rather than designed for use in water.

A good canoe feels tippy, or �tender� but becomes very stable when you lean it over a bit to either side, getting more steady as it lays over farther. That makes it easy to turn or paddle solo, and makes it much safer from turning over. A bad canoe feels very stable till it tips over a few degrees and then it goes all the way over to bottom up, suddenly.

Clipper canoes from Western Canoe & Kayak in Abbotsford, Canada, offer low seats and foot braces for control in white water and that is far more comfortable than kneeling. The foot braces are nice for any canoe and you can add them yourself.

I bought a kayak instead of the canoe. Caught a 15 lb. Chinook salmon from it a couple of weeks ago. It has hauled a LOT of salmon down rivers but this is the first I�ve caught in salt water from the kayak. As an Olympic paddler told me regarding canoes and kayaks, �Why drive a Chevy when you can drive a Ferrari?�

the very first canoe that i ever bought was a mad river.... it's the boat which really hooked me into the sport...

they are a reputable company with a broad line of available hulls... i should have included them in my initial reply...

a lot,but not all, of their touring hulls feature a shallow v design.... i dislike this in a canoe as i feel that the convergence of the V acts much like the keels that okanagon warned of... a very good point, by the way..... john w

What a wealth of info so fast! Now I understand "rocker"

Was thinking about the Mad River Exploer RX. The IQ modular gunwale system is very appealing. Any experience with this new feature?

also the Old Town Appalachian.

Was a bit concerned about the Royalex construction and "cold cracks" becasue it would be stored outside.

I own a Mad River Eplorer 16' canoe, made of Royalex. We have had the boat for 12 years now. It has been down the Colorado, Arkansas, and South Platte Rivers here in Colorado, and the North Platte in Wyoming, as well as many lakes. It has a large load-carrying capacity, and is a fairly stable craft. We fish out of it with no problem. It is also quite maneuverable on the rivers we have run. I would recommend it. As for the Royalex- it has proven to be quite durable. Scratches, dings, etc. clean up well with Armor-all. Have never had to patch it, and it has seen its share of rocks.

whitetail,

i have paddled mad rivers explorer, and i think its a pretty good canoe, for the uses that you outlined.....
as for the RX hull, i don't paddle them by choice, but understand the need for a bombproof, indestructable hull...
i own a sawyer that i bought used in 1990. it was built in 1979, from fiberglass, and has suffered no structural damage... it has teeter-tottered on top of rocks and logs... bumped, thumped, and crashed it's way down a lot of rivers... it's been drug through gravel, sand, and across roads... it's still as sound as the day it was built...
fiberglass boats can be broken.... the average paddler will never accomplish it.....

on average, the laminated boats, fiberglass, kevlar,and carbon fiber, are easier, and more efficient to paddle... this is because they are built with sharper, finer lines...
fiberglass is tough stuff, kevlar tougher, and carbon fiber is incredible... still, none are as bombproof indestructable as royalex...
friends who own both paddle laminate boats by preference, and use their RX hulls for the very meanest water..... john w

had to check out their website to find out about the IQ modular gunnels... sounds like a great system, and way overdue

Here are my thoughts are construction materials:

Plastic, ie royalex is great for bouncing down rocky rivers. They are relatively reasonbly priced, but would be nice if they were lighter.

Kevlar is feather lite, great if you'll be on a system of lakes and spending as much time portaging as paddling. They also hold their shape better, so should be a bit more efficient. Downside is cost, and not as durable if you really abuse the boat.

Thanks for all the advise. The Mad River IQ system really has my attention. Seems darn practical.

Armed with my new knowledge, I need to do some more investigating on this end .

I'm partial to Mad River canoes. Have paddled an Explorer, and, for me, I think that it is THE perfect canoe.
You won't go wrong with any Mad River canoes. Bell and We-Non-Nah are very close though. And, depending on a specific use, I love the Bells; like their solos are top drawer.
Don

When I was looking, I found the canoe mfg's websites and canoeing forums helpful. I had a john boat with a trolling motor before my canoe which, for me, wasn't nearly as enjoyable as paddling so motors aren't an option. If I want to get somewhere fast, I'll buy a nice fishing boat. Your mileage may vary.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



l wanted a canoe I could paddle solo or tandem, that was fast and tracked well, had a good mix of initial and secondary stability, was relatively light while still being durable and could handle a good load for tripping. I chose a royalex Bell Northwind. Here's a link -



Bell Canoe Works - Northwind



I just took my son out Saturday and we had a blast sneaking in and out of the coves, looking for frogs, turtles, ducks, herons, etc. BTW - if you are canoeing with a 3-year old, a bucket of rocks makes for a fun trip!!!



Straps are much easier than rope....





Lovin' life in his Dino PFD.....





Rocks are good.....





Just soakin' in the sights...

how's she handle whitetail??? ..... john w

I have a couple Grummans- a 16 lightweight, and an 18 standard. My partner has an Oldtown 18, and a Kevlar. The kevlar's been in the water about 4 times over the last 10 years- because of its cost, I guess. That's silly to my mind, but then I didn't spring nealy $1,000 for it. The Oldtown is our farthest in moose-hunting canoe, because it's quiet. The metal ones are used nearer the road (several lakes and portages to get the meat out- and we walk around the first few lakes, leaving the Grumman(s) stashed in the brush).

New canoes, for some reason, tip over a lot. Less so as they season in. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Tie EVERYTHING in!

for classic wood/canvas canoes these are beautifully made...
http://islandfalls.wcha.org/index.html

we- no nah has a slick website, and the most efficient hulls on the water...
http://www.wenonah.com/

bell canoe works makes some of the most beautifully crafted canoes on the water today...
http://www.bellcanoe.com/

mad river is still made in the traditional N.E. cradle of canoeing... they offer a lot of options and styles...
http://www.madrivercanoe.com/

swift canoe of dwight ontario- beautiful, agile, and, well, swift...
http://www.swiftcanoe.com/

whitetail, been running rivers for over 25 years now, started with a fiberglass mohawk,i n 78", good boat decent rocker but heavvvvvy. broke it in half on a log. patched it up after i got it home, and used it for another few years, sold it to a friend that used it several years.
when my interest got to whitewater i sold the mohawk and bought a 16' royalex mad river in 1984 i do not know which model. we have run many class III rivers with it and once floated the cossatot which is a class III+ that was the wildest and most fun i have had on water.
i have hunted ducks, deer, and squirrels out of it. most of its duty was floating ClassII rivers loaded to the gills with gear for 3 day float camping trips with two bubba sized adults. it responds well has good amount of rocker and a tumblehome beam for stability. these canoes are not cheap i paid 725.00 21 years and still going strong. i do not do much whitewater anymore but have a camp on a classII river here in arkansas so we do a lot of day trips in it.
do not go with the wood gunnells or bamboo seats. we have patched the gunnells several time over the years class III water and big rocks are hard on the wood (we do not always keep the sunnyside up) the bamboo seats rot after a few years.
do not go with the "poly" type plastic laminates as they will delaminate over time.
paddles are another thing you should read up on the wrong paddle will wear you out. i use different types depending on what type of water i will be floating.

hope you enjoy canoeing half as much as we have

My stroke and its effects killed my dream and plan of building two cedar-strip Prospecters ("Beaver" and "Otter") and � among other things� treating some blind kids to the inimitable pleasures of quiet river trips. I still get goose bumps, however, just revisiting the dream.

For the ultimate in satisfying canoeing experience, build your own cedar-strip, of any model that's detailed in the marvelous Canadian book whose name and author escape my rickety memory. (I'll post 'em if I remember 'em.) You haven't begun to sample the real pleasures of the water world until you've spent some time in canoes.

I've white-watered (bow paddle! wet job!) in a 19-foot square-stern Grumman in Alaska � much rather have a cedar-strip Prospector for general canoeing.

.

Although the Mad River and Bell canoes are my favorites, the Prospector is a very fine canoe. A very formidable canoe. Didn't Bill Mason use one of these? Our Canadean <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> friends should know.
Don

Yup.

Everything Mason

Regards, sse

Wow! What a great topic for a "gun forum". Canoe's are a lot like guns- ...You can't have too many- ...and you'll always regret the "one's" you let "get away".

I've got 3 Old Town's right now: The 13' "fisherman" when it was 1st introduced- with a wider more stable belly, and a- square-back stern- (this has been my most used water-craft for several years),- A Discovery 169- 16' & 9" length- great when I have "company"- and am not going "solo",- and I also have the little "Otter" kyack- Just like a Marlin "guide" gun to "grab and go". ...(any-where)

What I REALLY want though- ...is the Old Town "Pack" in RoyalX- which probably weighs less than half what my Otter does- it has one cane seat and plenty of room for tackle boxes & fishing rods.

I also have a vintage Grumman 16' Sports Boat- Which I identified only by chance- looking at a North Dakota Game & Fish publication photograph and story (several years ago) as they were using it to retreive nets of fertile Walleye Pike for the re-stocking of fry into other lakes).

This Grumman also has a full square back stern and a slightly covered prow. It is too old to have a horse-power rating- but would easily handle a 10 maybe 15 horse motor. But this early 50's craft is still a canoe.

The most beautiful, magnificent canoe I have ever seen- was in northern Manitoba- I believe it was the Cross Lake Indian Reservation- and a couple along with a friend had been some days Moose hunting, they were successful (having shot 2 large Moose), and were returning to thier home on the Reservation which was only accessable by water. I had a pickup and we were camped on the "portage way" which we were not aware of.

My pick-up made thier portage a lot easier- and we were rewarded with the best meat I have ever tasted- ( from the "hump" of the Moose).

Any-way, their "canoe" was a Hudson Bay Freighter canoe- cedar-strip- more than big enough for 3 people, 2 Moose, a large cast-iron covered "cauldron" (maybe)? Pot. (whatever) that stowed all thier gear: other cooking stuff: food, clothes,
other utensils, probably their rifle too. But they really didn't have -or need -or want -all that much.

This "boat" was big- ...But it was STILL a canoe.

(And it was also a "square-back" powered by a "new 35 hp. Evinrude outboard.)

Did I even mention a "paddle"? ...The Most I ever used one of those "things" for (through the years)- ...was to filet my fish on. But whenever my motor did fail- It was my paddle that always got me home.

pee wee

bill mason paddled a 15' wood/canvas prospecter through most of the video "waterwalker"....
i got impatient with the parts of the video that were of him painting or sketching, but the rest of the video was pretty cool.....

there was a guy at home in the northwoods.....

tonight was our last opportunity to be together on the river as a family til probably christmas time.....

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If, and it is a big if, I get to go to the Northwest School of Wooden Boatbuilding, strip canoes and kayaks are what I want to build. I was there last month and saw one built by a student and it was beautiful beyond words. I can do that even with the limitations from my injury. I have built two wood and canvas canoes and they were great but would not begin to compare to a strip canoe.

Hey John, was them pics taken on the White River? Looks about like where I drove through this summer.

P_Weed writes...

Hey P_ I have maybe the closest modern incarnation of that old "Fisherman", a 13.3 Discoverer, gotten for exactly nothing from an in-law whose wife wanted to turn it into a planter (shudder). For some years prior to that he had been filling it with water for his and the neighbor's kids to use as a wading pool, and that canoe STILL ain't broke.

Here it is set up for a student project, the kid and his dad drove it all around a local powerplant lake, GPS in hand, doing water tests at marked points and continually measuring the temperature at the surface and about 1ft down using recording temperature probes (two of them can be seen wired to the motor shaft), mapping temperatures by reference to the GPS track.

The trolling motor is 40 lb thrust marine-spec, and will hustle the canoe along up to 4.4 mph when needed to cross boating lanes and such, otherwise will run all weekend on the two deep cycle batteries pictured.

A perfect stealth vehicle for cruising marshes and wetlands and such.


Note the bolt-on, two "D" cell running lights for after-dark operations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

I have to agree with Ken Howell. There is nothing more beautiful than cedar-strip. I have a 16' Bell similar to Nebraska's and it is great. But my favorite is still the Adirondack Guideboat. Mine is 15 1/2' in fiberglass but I dream of building one in cedar strip. These are rowed, not paddled and they are fast, stable,light, and carry an emense load. What a pleasure to troll a streamer behind mine on an Adirondack lake. When I get more time I'll post a picture. The history of these boats and the Adirondack guides that hand built them is very interesting. The Adirondack Museum in Blue Mountain Lake has a few originals.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!
To God Alone Be The Glory!

Birdwatcher,
I much prefer the set up you show for powered canoe travel to a square stern canoe. With the canoe you show, you have the best of both worlds, a perfect paddeling canoe, and with the side mounted motor, a means of power.
Don

I have a OT Packer and want a guide boat. Looking at the Kevlar boats from Adirondack Guide Boats in VT.

Used to troll behind my grandmother's pulling boat on Lake George.

DMB...

Agreed, and even a 2 hp motor will push a 17 foot canoe at efficient hull speeds (about 3 mph), anything faster than that and the otherwise efficient canoe shape quickly becomes noisy and less stable as it tries to plane. With motors that small and light, putting them off to one side also makes them far more convenient to operate while facing forwards.

Birdwatcher

nah birdy,

them were on the rock river here in N.W. illinois.... headin' out for a job tonight.... see you all around

Thank you for that pic of your 13' Old Town. It was like looking at mine in the water. I also shuddered when you said someone wanted to turn it into a "planter". Glad you got it for a "fair" price (nothing)- 'cause I think a good canoe is "priceless" anyway.

Mine usually has an electric motor hanging off the square transom- and sometimes even a second motor mounted on a side out-rigger on the front. I'll sometimes run them both- and will have to adjust the shafts for depth- depending on what end I'm sitting.

It's not like I have something against paddles- It's just what I "happen" do when I'm fishing.

But I'll have to admit- The best fishing trips I have ever been on in my life were about 4 trips into Quetico Provincial Park in Ontario, Canada. No out-boards allowed there- (gas anyway). There were 3 elements involved that made those trips so perfect. The canoeing- the all day paddling became 2nd nature with my breathing and the very beating of my heart- complete joy and invigoration as I paddled from the front point beholding the beautiful scenery of water, terrain, and sky- constantly unfolding before my eye's.

Also, 2nd, the fishing: (Lake Trout & more) (Fishing: my lifes obsession). And 3rd, the camping, and the cooking, and eating.

And of course another "priceless" item (like your canoe) which I cannot number (which is also "free"): The Friendship and Fellowship, shared with 2 comrades- (who are both gone now- a father and son- (who were like a father and brother to me). Without their know-how and experience I would never have attempted adventures like that.

There is also a frequent contributor & member on this Forum that has helped helped to make make last years deer hunting trip (my first)- completely successful- (again in every way). Seems like I'm more often on the receiving end of someones else's generosity and sharing. I just hope I can do a little of the same in some way- for someone- before I get too old.

Weed

(There is something about being "on" or "near" water-
That just brings peace to the mind and to the soul,)