Howdy all,



Wife is wanting to get some form of watercraft and our financial situation being what it is we settled for a canoe. We will be camping at local lakes and I'll do some fishing by myself while she does whatever it is she does. She wants to paddle around on the water a little and just have some fun. We will also do some class 1 and 1+ stuff nearby on a local river.



Niether of us has canoe expirience, but that will change shortly. I've been looking at two different canoes and need help making up my mind. Do I get the Mad River Adventure 14 or the Old Town Guide 147? Please tell me why you selected what you choose. Thanks in advance for your help.



Biker

I have an Old Town, but it's the one with three seats, cup holders, rod tiedowns and a wide stable platform. I wanted to do fishing in mine and in the end, built a stern trolling motor mount and even purchased a set of outrigger floats so I could stand up and cast. My wife, daughter and I spent 3 hours in it on Sunday. They read while I caught bass.

Dan

Unless ya'll are both small folks,move up to at least a 16' with a 17' being even better.We had a 14' Mad River and it was a nice canoe but too small for us along with a cooler and a days gear.Any of the mid range canoes from either company are fine products.Research their websites to pick the boat best suited to your needs and type of water.Paddlingnet.com is a good source of reviews on differant canoes.Some dealers will have rentals so you can give some models a test run.

If I was looking old town I'd get the "camper"

Here's my solo set up for an all day on the water fishing trip. For a quick dip the paddle trip, I don't take the outriggers or the motor.

Dan

We got our little 13'3" Old Town as a gift. Its flat bottomed and dead stable but at 36" wide is dog-slow to paddle.

My nephews up in New York still use the 17' canoe I bought in high school. A longer canoe holds a bunch more, is intrinsically more efficient to paddle, and transports about as easy as a shorter one; get the longest canoe you can afford.

What separates canoes is the shape of the bottom; flat bottoms are dead stable in calm water but track poorly, OTOH while all canoes have a shallow draft, flat bottomed canoes will float in mere inches of water, sometimes a blast in swamps and wetlands.

Rounded bottom canoes are "livelier" and track better, they also paddle more efficiently.

If you are going to power it I ain't sure it matters WHAT hull shape you get since you'll be powering it past the intentions of the hull design anyhow.

Birdwatcher

While I've spent a lot of time in canoes and need to get another because I do like them but for what you're looking at doing you'll likely have a lot more fun with a couple 10-12 foot recreational kayaks. Fishing solo out of a canoe designed for two works fine until wind comes up and then it's just frustrating and having two independent boats to go for a paddle on the lake is much more fun than the canoe where someone is always stuck in front and the person in back can't hear you unless you're talking loud.

We have an Old Town Dirgo and a Wilderness Designs Pungo and we're very happy with them.

Apples and oranges. My wife likes to stretch out like a princess in ours while I labor away/operate the motor/whatever in back. Plus you can fit a large cooler, fishing rods, two dogs and a teenager as well as you and her in a canoe (once in that mode in our 13 footer, on Lake McQueeney crowded with high dollar power boats, some guy opined that we looked like the African Queen )

Birdwatcher

My own personal "dream canoe" is a Souris river QT-17.

It's a 17' tandem, my layup choice would be their "el tigre" kevlar in a red or natural color. Weight is around 45 pounds with portage pads and the hull is a well thought out shape that fits in the "general purpose" category nicely.

Birdwatcher explained the hull designs nicely. We have a 19' wenonah sundowner at home that fits closer to the "racing" category. It lays in the water like a floating sewing needle. It's crazy fast and tracks straight. It's awesome for getting across a lake fast, but it's not any fun in small tight winding rivers and it's no damn fun to fish out of.

We had a smoker craft that was the complete opposite, it had rocker and width, it turned better than it tracked and it laid in the water like a garbage dumpster. Good to fish out of... and I guess it floated. Those are the only nice things I can think to say about it.

The old grumman aluminum canoes have a strong following for good reason, good quality and effective general purpose hull shape.

I would liken the water manors of the Souris river qt-17 to that of an old alum grumman 17 foot double ender but at roughly half the carry weight.

And at roughly quadruple the price

I'm getting wordy, sorry for that but I have one more I'd like to mention. I'd feel bad if I didn't mention the alumacraft QT 17. I've used them a lot and feel they are quite a value. The hull shape gets the nod for nice general purpose water manors, quality and durability are there, weight is manageable at around 65 lbs and they are quite affordable.

like others have said, I personally wouldn't have a 14' canoe even if it was a center seat solo, certainly not as a tandem.

The answer is clearly a canoe and a couple kayaks.

I have a 40 year old aluminum Smokercraft 17'. It's big and heavy but very good for lakes. It's too heavy for fast water, though. I have an electric motor on it that I highly recommend. It's a 35lb that really scoots the canoe along. The only problem is that the shaft is too long to be the most convenient thing. Also, you need to get the prop far enough in the water so it won't hit the boat and that means you need deeper water to use it. You can't get into 6" like paddled canoe can.

Hey Dave, what did you think of the Souris River you guys used on your trip this year?

Ive been debating those versus a WeNoNah Minnesota 3, your thoughts?

Thanks, John

i had an older Old Town Tripper that was a great canoe for floating with gear in shallow water. it was a tad heavy but you could put a pack mule in the center of that thing and it still wouldn't take but an inch of the wet stuff to float. the longer wider canoes as mentioned above will be a bit more stable the shorter will be more nimble which is great if you prefer to float swifter water but from what you stated above it sounds as if the more stable platform would suit your needs better. for the record, we had that tripper of mine packed with gear for a 3 day float in late feb one year on one of our ozark streams here in missouri (current river)and had no issues in any of the swift bends. good thing too as it was in the low teens that day. both manufactures are good in my opinion however i am going by what i knew of them in the late 70's and early 80's. i don't know much about the present day stuff.

About a month ago, I paddled up the Wood River and anchored in Frying Pan Pond, out in the middle of a wildlife management area. I heard voices that sounded like a baseball game or something. It got closer and closer. I caught a couple trout and around the corner from up river comes 3 canoes. As they got close, they were big muscled, tattoo covered guys with white coolers in Old Town Guide canoes. They said Hi, and I might want to pack up because about 20 more boats would be paddling through my spot. I sat there and 20 more boats came through. One guy was sitting in the middle of one, paddling it backward. It sounded like they were drinking pretty good. I picked up and paddled back to the put in point. The guys were pulling out. They said they were fireman and they do a canoe trip every year. They all had the same red Guide canoes. Nobody seemed wet! A local rental place must have gotten a bunch of them.

When I see something like that, I imagine they must have a good track record. They're on sale at Dick's for $599 all the time. I like the material. It reminds me of their old Crosslink. It's indestructible. Not bad if you're ever thinking about bouncing off rocks! I have a 15ft Camper that is the same design and it paddles easy and is very stable - at first. I've had it 20+ years and can find no fault with it. It's a flat bottom, so it is very stable if you don't lean. That's what they call primary stability. I had a Mad River long ago and they all had V hulls. It was a kevlar boat and I spent good money on it. If you didn't sit perfectly still, you'd rock side to side. It felt like you'd roll right over but the more you lean, the more solid the boat got. The sides flare out from the bottom, and as you lean, more of the boat gets wet. That's secondary stability. The advantage is that if you're sitting right, and the boat is balanced, the minimum amount of hull is in the water, so it's less drag to paddle against. It's nice, but nobody I brought out in it liked it! They want to feel that initial stability. The thing is though, that you still can't lean out too far because it will go from flat to roll over in a couple short, critical degrees.

The standard Maine canoe is 14 feet long and 36" wide, and that's a do all canoe. For fishing or duck hunting, I like a little wider canoe. I have a 12' Bear Creek that is 42" and I can stand up in it. It's much harder to paddle. I have to J stroke and leave the paddle in the water 90 percent of the time, but it's way nicer to sit in once you get there!

oof, MN III is heck-fer a lot of bote!

long!!

Souris makes a QT 18.5 too though which I suppose is their compeditor for the MN III

I really liked the Souris QT 17's we rented.

Being rentals with what looked to be many seasons on them they had to be about the poorest representation of a souris kevlar you could find. Yet I found no faults with the 3 we rented.

They were awesome, I want one bad lol!

The wenonah MN II & MN III are easier to find in the used market from $1000 and up, and I'm sure I'd be happy with one of them but I think I would favor the souris a bit for there layup with epoxy resin. Very durable and very reparable if damaged.

I've read reports and seen pictures of terrible things happening to these souris river canoes like trees falling on them or a canoe that got loose in a rapids and tried to turn itself into a river dam sideways between rocks resulting in a folded canoe...

The folks that had that particular accident (river fold) were able to pop the canoe back out to it's original shape and use the canoe to get back out from a trip deep in the BWCA. Even with busted gunwales the hull held it's form and they made it back out. The canoe was repaired by the rental outfitter it belonged to and it was put back into service.

I understand wenonah has a new layup but I don't know much about it yet.

We've got an old Michicraft 17' aluminum that my wife and I have fished and squirrel hunted out of for years. We're in our 60s and it still works for us..

If I could I'd like a Souris River like N Dave mentioned or a Wenonah MN I can't justify $2000+ for a canoe, however. I do have a 17' alum. Smokercraft. It gets used on smaller lakes for bass fishing and camping trips in the Sylvania Wilderness.

I think 16' is the way to go, especially if you are both fishing. In a 15'er or smaller, the bow fisherman must be very careful with backcasts.

If you get a 16', I recommend a symmetrical boat with the bow seat designed so you can reverse the boat and paddle solo from the bow seat, with the boat backwards. Many 17'ers - in standard, all-around recreational configurations - will be challenging to paddle solo.

I currently own a Dagger Legend 16, which is an all-round boat but definitely more of a river design than a lake boat. In hindsight I wish I'd purchase a MR Explorer 16, as it would be slightly better on flatwater. Now, with three kids and a dog, I feel the need for a 17' in one of all-around designs, like the Camper or Tripper.

Good luck!

But then you can't do sweet canoe wheelies.

lol!

hey biker,

here is an old thread from 2004 that is still mostly pertinent today... there's a lot of good info contained...

Canoes

Oldtown Guide is what I have. I can highly recommend it.

I would buy used and see if you like it...Some people don't, and others like me have more canoes and kayaks than I know what to do with...

We were in the same "boat" with similar needs and I considered Old Town, Mad River and Bell. After trying them out on the water, I went with a Bell North Wind. It's suited our needs perfectly and we could be happier!!

If the location is anywhere near SW Va, a VERY good option might be had fast and for a great buy.

Wenona Adirondak, 16ft, slight rocker, Royalex construction.
I love mine, it's a compromise design, but it works very well for the uses you listed.

Many moons ago I ran an newspaper ad each fall to buy "a canoe" and ended up with a huge stack of them, cheap. Each spring I sold the canoes for about what I had in them... But I also sold all the paddles, life jackets, and extras that people had "thrown in". Made for quite a bit of pocket change. Some canoes came cheap enough to sell at a big profit, too.

Spent a ton of time n canoes for a long time and always came back to the biggest possible freighter for most running around and fishing use. I have been wet...

Moving water is a whole other beast and there is nothing good about a keeled canoe in fast water. The OP only mentioned tiny stuff, so it makes no real difference, but it can be a serious problem in a heartbeat.

I'm always shopping the want ads for used canoes near me. Those two models seem to pop up more often than most. it's particularly interesting when you note that the Mad River Adventure models haven't been around very long. That would seem to indicate that a lot of folks don't fall in love with these models for long.

What others have said about the lack of performance in 14' tandem canoes is correct. Of the various 14' models I'm aware of, those two aren't on the list of what I would even consider. Just one drawback they both have is the molded seats that require you to face in one direction. It is a common and useful practice to solo a tandem canoe from the bow seat, facing the stern, so your weight is closer to the center of the boat - which isn't comfortable to do on those molded seats. Having said that - you can also solo one of these with molded seats by sitting in the stern seat and placing sufficient ballast (I have used a water-filled dry-bag) in the opposite end to trim the boat. Between the two, I would get the Old Town because it will be the more versatile and the easier of the two to recover from being swamped.

If you must stick to that price-point, I would either shop used or look seriously at the Old Town Discovery series - specifically the 169. You may be able to find a used Old Town Penobscot, which is a good all-around 16-footer, with good performance - and in that price range, should be in very good condition. Or - you could save a ton of money while you decide if you even like canoeing, by finding a used Grumman or Alumacraft. Should have no trouble finding a good one in the $300 or under range.

I have been through the whole transition from short/wide and flat-bottom to long/narrow and rounded or vee bottom canoes thing. If you want to skip past the preliminaries, just get a higher-performance canoe (such as the Penobscot - or the Wenonah Adirondak that someone else mentioned) and learn how to use it properly while getting used to the "lively" feel of the hull on the water. Your overall enjoyment will be much better.

Find a paddling instructor if you have one available in your area - otherwise, get one of the good paddling instruction books, such as "Paddle Your Own Canoe" (one of the best). There is a lot more to making a canoe go where you want it to than paddling on one side or the other. In fact - you may want to go to the books first, to help understand the mechanics and dynamics of the different boats. There is a good explanation of the difference in hull design here.

If you settle on either the Guide or the Adventure just to get on the water, you will still benefit from instruction. Just don't write off canoeing if you don't enjoy that particular boat. You may find that after you bore of the performance of the "beginner" boat, that something longer, narrower, and rounder is easier and more fun to paddle - and less likely to spill you on rough water.

At any rate - either of those two you are now looking at will be better than a Coleman or a Pelican - or any of the similar boats on the market.

The wheelie isn't just a joke, it's a proven advanced technique. Not only does it let you perform a "spin move" at high speed, it also prevents the bow from diving in class 2 wavetrains.

Nice rig, I rented one up in BWCA a few years ago.

Um...okay....It also puts you in the most unstable position possible - and for no good reason. There are better ways to spin the boat and to negotiate a wave train.

Should there have been a joke smiley with that?

I have the same canoe, and I don't think it is a compromise at all, unless you mean in comparison to 17-19ft BWCA tripping canoes, and they don't turn like the Adirondack.

The Old Town Penobscot is a very similar canoe, and REI is running a special on those currently. The Mad River 16 ft Royalex Explorer is a similar hull. 16 ft is the most versatile length, absolutely no shorter for a tandem canoe. A 14 ft canoe is a solo craft.

It would be quite humorous to watch you try that on a windy lake. You wouldn't be laughing though.

No, it puts a solo canoeist in the best possible position to handle a tandem canoe.

Has worked for me for over 50 years.

Good for ya. It only proves you're a slow learner.

I agree with the look on craigslist and papers for used ones. Turnover on canoes and kayaks is pretty high and you can get a nearly new one at a large discout that's rarely been in the water.

I've got about a 30 year old Gruman aluminum that I think I paid about $250 for new. Don't use it much anymore after I got a kayak.

Soloing a tandem canoe.

Here's one way...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2M9jwKtMt0

Note that directional control is not dependent on wind or lack thereof - or any wild flailing with the paddle. You need a good canoe for this to work well. Coleman and Pelican barges need not apply.

My preferred method...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMxURxbzBWo

Note the deep water technique at about 3.07.

You can solo paddle from the stern seat pretty well if you have enough gear ahead of you to trim the boat level - but you'll need a lot of room to turn the boat. If you're on any sizable rapids, it's not a good position to perform a brace from or for any quick maneuvers. If you're on a calm lake though, no problem.

When it comes to soloing in a tandem canoe, this guy knows his stuff. Set aside about 90 minutes, grab a beer, and enjoy...

http://www.nfb.ca/film/waterwalker/

Bull$hit. Tell me how to paddle solo in the middle of a 36-38 inch wide tandem �barge�?????

Not from the middle - from just behind the middle. Watch the Bill Mason video I linked in my last post, then check out his instructional videos at the Film Canada site.

The "slow learner" remark was a cheap-shot, and I apologize. Can't expect you to know it if you've only been shown one way. That is why I suggested lessons or study to the OP, and why I posted the other video links.

Check out those youtube videos I linked. The guy soloing the Cronje is showing an extreme example, in that the canoe is unloaded and riding high. With practice, it is easy - but it's even easier with about 60lbs or more gear ahead of you in the boat, holding it down closer to level. The thing is, the boat just handles so much better with you and your gear more centered in the boat. It turns better and it rides over waves easier. With the right paddle, you can get closer to both ends of the boat for better control while positioned to one side and just behind the yoke. You just have to learn the proper strokes to make it go the way you want to.

Been there, done all that�don�t think I have missed much of the Mason stuff.

So - you're saying he did it all with trick photography then? He didn't negotiate those rapids from a station just behind the yoke? Why didn't he position himself on the stern seat? Ignorance?

The stern seat is in the narrowest part of the boat there is room to sit. If you don't balance the boat with some weight in the other end, you give up a lot of the boats inherent stability. If you do counterbalance for trim, all you mass is near the ends - which prevents the boat from responsive turning and from riding dry and easy over large waves. And it puts you in a position of poor leverage for a brace (you know that term?). You can get away with all that (with weight in the opposite end) if you only need to go straight or make wide turns - and yes, it is easier to make the boat go straight. But if you're doing it with the bow riding high and dry as in that first photo - you are giving up speed, stability, and directional control....for no good reason other than a lack of knowledge and/or practice.

Been there before!!

I like my mad river. Have had it for 20 years. Have been on trips all over Canada with it. Have done class III in it but I put bags in the front and back

BTW Bowsinger - this isn't all theory or watching internet videos for me. I spend a lot of time in a tandem canoe (several different canoes, actually) and use all these techniques where they apply.

The only thing left after the nuclear armageddon will be cockroaches and Grumman canoes.

A lotta truth in that!

OK, maybe compromise is the wrong word.
What I meant was, the Adirondak is not a full blown racing or lake canoe, and it's not a full rockered whitewater type canoe.
Does that make more sense? I guess I should have said it's a great all around design that does most things well enough to be enjoyable. How's dat?

You nailed it.

Thank you all!

This has been an educational thread for me. In my reading and looking I fell in lust for a totally different canoe. Yup, a small wooden canoe that I can paddle the wife around the lake on but is sufficient enough for me to do a weekend backcountry trip solo. I'll have to sell some stuff to actually buy it but I'm wanting to sell my Ducati anyway.

Biker

Mad River for white water, and Old Towne for a good lake canoe...

Thanks for the input Dave, much appreciated

Solo?

http://www.hornbeckboats.com/

My floating aluminum log handles best solo with me in the rear seat and some weight just forward of the center. I use a heavy deep cycle battery. It balances the weight so I just have to sit back and run the electric motor.

Those are purdy and look quite useful. It seems they combined the best attributes of a canoe and a kayak.

Biker

For the $$, an Old Town Penobscot 164 is one heckuva canoe. I've spent a good deal of time in one and not only are they versatile, they're a lot lighter than many other royalex canoes too.

Another vote for the Penobscot. I bought mine before they made different lengths, so mine is a 16'. In the past 27 years, I've had it on waters from Alberta to Lake Powell. It's a mighty fine hunting rig:



I even use it on hard water, to drag my spread out for ice hunts:





It fishes fine, I've even bottom bounced with it, and caught walleye over 7# in it. As an all around boat, it leaves little to be desired.

I'm not much of a white water paddler, but get where I'm going. It's probably been my single best outdoor investment. Thanks a bunch for the information, FreeMe. I'll be looking into those sources soon.

Do you guys know how making love in a canoe is just like lite beer?

They're both f---ing close to water.

Hey, I like Lite Beer! Maybe because I like being close to the water???



For some reason I hear a 'Splash' in someone's future...

When things get tipsy in a canoe, do NOT put your hands on the gunnel to catch your balance or it's all over(board)! Instead, learn to drop down very quickly. Either to your knees or slip out of your seat and put your butt down on the floor of the canoe. The canoe will right itself, and you and your gear will not go for a swim. It goes against your natural instincts but it works.



I lengthened my motor mount so I could put it where the front passenger would usually have his knees, turned the 18' double-ender Grumman around and did most everything else the same except maybe some gear and/or about 3-5 gallons of ballast water in a bucket close to where the passenger's feet would be (now facing backwards to travel) of the 'new' front seat. Keeps the boats attitude perfect for good tracking on lakes.

I can lead-line bottom drag for Togue (Lakers) with big spinners in over 60 feet of water without a problem with either my 1.2HP Johnson Colt or my Motorguide 30# electric. If all I want to do is paddle around smaller streams, I put a seat, a tall bucket or a milk crate closer to the middle and leave most of the other gear at camp. The seat/crate can also be a third person's seat if there's that many of us in one craft.

Biker,
Have fun with whatever you choose.

I did that once. Damn canoe got heavy as [bleep]. Then I used a blue tarp: rolled it up like a cigar with the dekes inside, and tied a line to it. Much easier!
Unfurled, the tarp doubled as an optical illusion pond.
Worked good both times we did this just inland from Lake Michigan.

While I recognize their utility, economy, flexibility and certain pleasing aesthetic, twice I have come to within a hair's breadth of dying on the water. Both were in canoes. In winter. Never, ever again.

Thank you.

That was very enjoyable.

Biker

Has anyone tried an Old Town Pack canoe? I have very little canoe experience but would like something I could carry easily on some solo fishing/hunting trips.

My wife and I bought our Mad River Explorer 16' Royalex canoe about 15 years ago, to do exactly what you and your wife plan to do.
We put it on several lakes, both small and large, as well as the Colorado, Green, Blue, North and South Platte, and Arkansas Rivers in Colorado and Wyoming.

It proved to be a safe, maneuverable, fun boat to own and enjoy.

A few months ago, I gave it to my son and his wife, to begin their 'canoe journey' through life, as well.

KG - I would be interested in the story. Anyway...winter canoeing (and Kayaking) presents it's own issues in the north country. The key to survival is to dress for immersion. Yeah - it's another big expense if you're going on cold water, but a good dry suit (as much as ~$1k) is worth every penny. That, and some good synthetic insulating layers, along with the suitable personal flotation, will keep you safe in the coldest water that you might float a boat or your body in.

Kokatat is the recognized leader in dry-suits. If you want to paddle year-round (and thereby get the most out of your boat investment, and stay in paddling shape), it's money well-spent.

You are welcome. I need to sit and watch it again myself...

Another good all-around canoe choice - and somewhat widely available on the used market. A carefully-stored 15 y/o example should still have lots of life left in it. I bet your kids will enjoy it!

Not sure if it's been posted yet but a site that's helped me get a lot of info over the years is: Canoe Country Forums

I haven't but lots of my friends have. The Old Town Discovery 119 is essentially the same hull (slightly higher sides/gunwales) in a heavier (10#) plastic, but half the money of the Pack. My friends fish shoaling rivers, with the occasional Class II rapid, mostly Class I's, and love that little boat. Many sold their sit-on-top fishing kayaks after getting their 119's.