Guess he should have been bobbin-n-weavin....

Ouch...Will he win his lawsuit..?

[b][color:#3333FF]Cops Sucker-Punch on Foxnews.....[/color][/b]

Well, he'll get paid and the cop will probably have nothing happen to him.

I'm usually defending the cops on these, but it sure doesn't look like anyone should be in this case.

He looked a little mouthy to the cop, but I didn't see him "throwing the first punch".

Fans, he used a certain phrase that will get you tossed out of the ballgame...Announcer in Bull Durham

Damn, he got rocked...me thinks he didn't remember any of it until he saw the video...

Agreed...but video will get him a nice settlement..and Hunter1960 will be back protecting and serving.

Holy Crap! But what else do you expect when we make cops invulnerable to the law? Unchecked power corrupts.

Who in the [bleep] hires and keeps these pieces of [bleep] on the street? The only union I am against is a police union.

God, 22 more months and I'll never do this job again.

If the news report around these parts is accurate, the guy deserved to have his arse kicked, just not by the cop.

No doubt he might have deserved a good smacking,..but cops can't be doing that.

On the other hand,..the charges were dropped, so was he guilty of anything other than being a punching bag.?

Hope so. Everytime I see things like this it makes me rethink all those 'stories' you hear/d but there were no cameras around so you gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Not a good ideal to get aggressive verbally and wave your hands above the shoulders in the face of someone who has to be on edge constantly. Not a sucker punch when your facing someone and they are confrontational. Where is it written that cop can't throw the first punch.

Might have got by with the first knockout punch but the I told you so following first punch likely will cost someone some money.
GW

DPD and maybe the casino.

Joel,

Life after retirement is WONDERFUL!

Ed

9 more to go!

It's rather chilling to think what might pass as SOP without video surveillance and private cameras. If someone would have told me 40 years ago I'd be seeing police do this stuff now, I would have laughed and called them delusional. Makes me sad.

It would sure be nice to have more good guys like you stay on, but I'm sure you have more than earned your pension. I hope the next 9 are good and go fast.

Another case of rude behavior.

1b

Just under 7.5 and I'll have my years, but I have another 11 to go before age 45. I'd trade my stripes for years like the first 10...

George

Punishable by a goon beating?

Dementia is a bitch.

What he said!

More so for those encountering it rather than those who have it. GW

LOL, that is true.

Don't hit'em with your hands, too much of a chance to hurt yourself and possibly get sued. You've got other tools on your belt to gain control etc. You folks talk about how wonderful it was in the old days.

Many of you don't remember back in the 60's & 70's, that LEO's were trained to box in state certified police academies. I know they were in WA. state.
My first hand experience in this is in WA state, being involved in an Explorer Program and riding with Deputies in the mid 70's.

You also forget that LEO's carried & used, saps & sap gloves. I've seen Deputies respond to fight calls pulling on sap gloves, and it was punches to the face, to gain control. I've seen sap hits to the head. Those days are over, no saps, no sap gloves. No baton strikes to the face or head either.

NH K9,
People are generally the products of their environment and I suspect strongly that there was more to this than the video shows because in my experience nobody gets that pissed off to beat someone like that without some other provocation. That said, it still should not have happened but my money is on the suspicion there was something going on between these two BEFORE the incident and that we are not being told about. By the way, I think you are a standup guy and even though we have disagreed about some things in the past, I would still welcome you to my part of the world. Here's hoping that you put in your next 11 and never lose you edge, because I truly believe that you are doing your duty as it should be done. I have read most of your posts and this is the conclusion that I have come to. Wishing you all the best.

Flower Child

Been retired from law enforcement for ten years in October after a little over 30 years. It was a good profession, but retirement is G-R-R-R-E-A-A-A-T!

I agree. I don't think I can blame the Cop for throwing the first two punches. To me, it doesn't make any sense at all for a perp to be waving his hands around an Officer.

However, near the end of the video it looks like that same Cop threw a couple extra punches after the perp was cuffed. That is what will make the perps case (going to watch the vid again).

Stephen

..watched the last portion of the vid ... kind of looks like the perp had a second wind and was resisting.

I've got to hand it to the cops on here that have put in their time, but the younger cops I run into are a bunch of smack-talking little boys who want to impose their will on someone...while talking all kinds of chit that they would never put up with.

Here's to that cop getting ass raped in prison, even though he'll probably just get a payed vacation on the taxpayer tab.

Sure. He should stand like a statue, humble and meek before his lord. Are you an officer of the law?

No, I am not an Officer of the Law., but damn it, I have a great respect for them. I am not saying that one should bow down before the Law in every circumstance - what I am saying is that one should be very careful when making hand movements that could be taken as aggressive.

I have not had many experiences where I am in conflict with a LEO. I intend to keep it that way.

Ye, you can see the dude making a lot of threatening gestures when he's on the ground getting the schit beaten out of him.

When I viewed the video, it looked like he was resisting. My viewing of the vid could be incorrect.

If he was resisting, then beating him down would be correct in my mind. If he was not resisting, then those last punches would be completely out of line.

I'll not defend the perp, as I don't know what led up to it and certainly was not there for a first hand account. I will have to say that, with a two on one and you're holding all the cards, it looks like an unreasonable use of force when you are beating the hell out of a guy that is on the floor.

Police have a tough job to do, no doubt, but it's the job they chose. When I was coming up, police got a certain amount of respect because of the badge and the job they did, the rest they had to earn. Today, I still respect the badge and the job, but approach every police encounter with guarded caution based on first hand experiences, and I have never been arrested or spent time in a cell for anything.

When people get in trouble for dumb stuff they do, a lot of emotions often come out. A good cop knows how to contain those emotions with what he says and and how he says them and body language. The guy would have been crazy to swing at the cop with another right there and I highly doubt he was going to do anything like that. He was just scared and drunk and the emotions were coming out. The cop made sport of him, and then demonstrated who he was when he beat him some more in cuffs. We don't even know how much he beat the guy since the vid stops as he drew back the third time. That my friend is the difference between a police officer, and a jackbooted thug.

I think we are on the same page,KC. I guess all I'm saying is that if I'm on the ground and resisting, then I'm due a beating.

If a PO comes up to me when I'm sipping a cocktail and minding my own business, and he beats my butt, then I would have a problem with it.

So far, in my experience, if I'm not slinging verbal insults and waving my hands around his face or piece, I have been treated with respect.

The only thing that should matter in a free society is whether it would be OK if the situation were reversed, i.e., if a cop were talking smack with gesticulations would it be OK in the eyes of the law for you to do to the cop what this cop did to this fellow? If not, then the cop was wrong and needs the exact same punishment in the law that I'd get were I to haul off and sucker punch a cop who was pissed off and gesticulating at me.

This wouldn't have happened if the suspect had been handcuffed and escorted out. Officer safety usually means that agitated individuals are handcuffed behind the back when being dealt with.

Although I recall an illegal alien arrested Santa Barbara Horse Show by the Border Patrol back in the day. He was in handcuffs, placed in the rear cage of a patrol car and then repeatedly kicked and punched. The entire episode was witnessed by a rather wealthy stable owner who's father was a friend of President Nixon - crap happened.

And what's your first hand experience in this area?? I'ld get some time on the street dealing with drunks and agitated people, before i gave testimony what a good cop should do.

No, the LEO was wrong for hitting the person. He had other options as a choice,

It's really interesting that when i have something done, such as a veh. repair etc. i don't tell the person doing the work, of which i don't have experience or training in, how to do it.

But here at the 'Fire everyone has this, "it should be done this way" belief regarding LE. But what's really funny, is that those with this belief, don't have the intestional fortitude, to go out in their communities and serve in a volunteer position such as a, reserve LEO or even a volunteer fireman.

You'ld think that folks with all of this, "this is how it should be done" knowledge, would go out and show, "this is how it should be done" in their communities. But, i guess it's easier to just talk the talk, instead of walking the walk.

WHat!? A perp was struck by an officer of the law ???
After he raised his hand to strike him???

What's next ?
A screen test?



( you know... when you handcuff a perp and tosshim in the back of the squad car. And then while racing at a high rate of speed, the officer must slam on the brakes to avoid a ..
deer or small child in the road..
the the perp tests the strength of the screen
With his face.

thats a mighty wide brush you're paintin with there.

I watched the video, I think the cop coulda gotten away with the first hit saying he took it as a threatening move. the beating following it, nope. the cop is the one who escalated it, not the perp. there is a reason they train through scenarios all the time, in order to be able to make the right judgement call.

he made the wrong call, but it could be seen why, but only if it had ended there. looks like he had a chip on his shoulder and was pissed at the guy. maybe he was having a bad day, who knows. but when 2 big dudes have one guy on the ground, there should be no reason to kidney punch him over and over when trying to cuff him.

I never stated, that the officer, did the right thing. If the officer believed that the person was being aggressive towards him, he had other ways to deal with it, that would stand up better in court.

The officer had the camera to his advantage, until he struck him, he then lost that advantage.

The camera doesn't tell you what was said.
The guys mouth was probably asking to be shut.
With force!

Thug with a badge. Stop justifying poor behavior or the next victim may be you.

Good thing this guy didn't scratch his balls, you would have justified a shooting.

Oh and do yourself a favor, don't get a CC permit, it's obvious your sense of immediate threat is whacked and you'll end up being Bubba's bunk mate for blowing away some kid for reaching into his pocket for his car keys.

That's how it was done years ago. But it's all changed to a kindier, gentlier, concept. Eventhough society hasn't gotten kindier & gentlier.

That really doesn't happen, that's just a rumor.

That is an excellent post and one I appreciate.

More likely, an average guy that couldn't control his emotions, and shouldn't be a cop.

Possibly. Either way, he gives good cops, a bad name and needs to be gone.

Agreed. Many cops don't survive the tests of the profession and unfortunately, nothing but the job itself can provide those tests.

Thanks Ed. I don't know where I'd be without you reminding me its gonna be alright, every now and then.

And THAT is EXACTLY the problem. I can't count the number of times I'v seen 'Cops' or some other such show and particularly the high speed chase scenes where the perps goes racing and crashing through residential areas endangering countless others. Invariably the perp gets cornered and taken down and cuffed and relatively calmly arrested. Now... I understand the cameras are rolling and I understand I'm just watching TV and I'm a pretty calm personality by most's standards, yet I get so worked up I invariably find myself saying "How in the world do they not beat that idiot to within an inch of his life!" That is generally followed up with the proclamation "Just another one of many reasons I could never be a cop!"
So to your point above, the "average guy" should not be a cop. It takes someone cut from a different and yes 'better' cloth. The problem is all too often the 'average guy' and even the 'sub average guy' are hired and then are on the side of the thin blue line that buys then a level of deference from their brothers in uniform that is simply unconscionable to those of us that pay them to 'protect and serve'. A little self policing of their own ranks and properly placed public scorn of those who fall short would do more for their public image than any 8 figure marketing campaign.

Managing police is like managing whitetail bucks... where you start is where you stop. You should count your blessings when you ever get one better than what meets the absolute minimal qualification.

That's O.K. DINK will be along shortly to defend the cops.

Dear Lord... THAT is hardly encouraging....

Oh...I could defend him by pointing out that the guy might have just told the officer that he had a knife in his pocket and was going to slit his throat, and the officer acted in a decisive mannor. The reality of the business is that if this even were the case, you can't survive a career looking bad.

Thank you Lt. Powell. That means more to me than you will know.

More than likely the dude was drunk and was pretty provocative with mouth and waving his hands. If the video showed the cop getting hit first two things would have happened; 1) 6 cops would have kicked the crap out of the dude and, 2) people would say that its part of being on the job.

Yeah, he'll win the lawsuit. Then all of us will pay some A-hole for getting what he no doubt richly deserved. Too bad it was caught on film.

I've been told the same thing from a couple of highly respected LEO's who are retired or been on the job for a long time.

This is one of the most honest and civil threads on this subject in a very long time, maybe ever. It is very good and encouraging to see. Hope it continues without the usual rancor. Shining light on the bad guys on both sides of the badge is good for everyone, as long as there are penalties for the bad behavior, on both sides.

The guy that got knocked out can now buy that house he has always wanted. ... Free money.

And too bad it didn't happen to you then ...idiot. Off to ignore, bye bye.

I've no reason to doubt Mac's statement that his behavior warranted an azz beating.


we don't hear what was said, maybe he was telling the cop, I'll find your mother and cut her up, I'll find your wife and kids and cut them up. We just don't know, do we?

I know, I know, we expect our LEO's to take that kinda verbal chit unfazed.


all i know for sure is, it's a job I couldn't do, if he'd said something like I speculated above I could be two weeks from retirement and the mouthy POS is going down.

nothing to test your Dale Carnegie training like dealing with obnoxious drunk folk.

Mac, George, Lt. Pat, hope you and many of the other LEOs know I'd be happy to stand you to a beer or three just for dealing with the human garbage day after day after day after day.

I truly don't know how you do it, but I'm thankful that good men do so. Thanks to all our good LEO's

It would be interesting if there is more raw vidio that was not part of the news. My impression is that the guy was probably a jerk and somehow pushed the officer's button. The officer probably over reacted. The sad thing is it is the jerks that usually get a lot of money from the situation.

Most of us would have respected the police even if he was trying to throw his weight around.

I don't either but Mac did say in regards to that beating, it should not have come from a cop. Maybe you missed that.

I believe the rumor, which is likely the truth, is the guy put his hands on a female casino employee inappropriately. I hope the cops violent demonstration does not jeopardize the real victims rights to address her assailants sexual misconduct, but it could. Few think about that, including this cop, preferring to see some guy get taken off his feet and pounded on believing they will never be in that position, maybe like this guy believed too.

nope I didn't miss it Ricky and I agree, it shouldn't have come from a cop


I was just pointing out that if "I" were a cop and some dirtbag sez he's going to harm my family, I'm most likely going off.


therefore protecting and serving is better left to better men like mentioned in my prior post


I just don't have the temperament to be a good cop, and it's amazing to me what society expects from them really.

John Wayne, Mother Theresa, Confucious, Phychiatrist rolled up into one seems to be about what's expected.


life doesn't happen in a well lit courtroom, or on the internet where a guy has a chance to study and contemplate his responses

on the street it happens right damn NoW

like i said I don't have the makeup for it, but god bless and watch over those that do please

There are always unknown variables on these deals. Who knows, mayby the cops wife, niece or daughter got felt up by this guy? Two things for sure...the only winner is the bad guy and you can't be white, stupid and stay employed as a cop.

The guy who got decked should have stayed home that day. He no doubt has issues playing well with others. I agree with those expressing anger he will likely profit from the cops reaction.

There are all kinds in the world. I was headed to an appointment a couple of hours ago. At a stop sign the second vehicle back turned at the same time the front car did into the oncoming lane to get ahead of the lead car. He was waiting for the lead car at a business driveway down the road and gestured that driver to pull in. The lead car just kept going and the idiot pulled in behind me. I turned onto a main street in Des Moines and this guy followed me. As he passed me I turned to look at him and he was screaming at me. Why I have no idea. I had not been the subject of his angst and only saw his nonsense as I came around a corner and down a hill from quite a ways back. I shook my head in disgust, and he swerved towards me. Then he sped ahead and suddenly hit his brakes, and waited for me to pass and gets into my lane. Next he comes barrelling up behind me as though he's going to rear end me, swerved around me cutting in close to my bumper. I was not intimidated in the least. Brother Kimber and I were quite calm. Even if I had not been armed, I would not have been concerned. Some things I turn over the to Lord. This one I gave to 911.

I thing our society is at a boiling point. There is so much nonsense going on many don't know how to handle the stress. We will likely not see less of the issues in the vid or what I just experience on the road, but more. I'd highly recommend we all arm ourselves with a sufficient caliber and a good Bible. I'm afraid many will need both. I hope few need the gun but strongly believe we all need the Bible.

My .02.....

I'm not surprised that a cocktail waitress got felt up by a drunk. I'm not surprised that a drunk got punched by a cop. All of this has been happening for hundreds of years.

What surprises me is that the events merit this much attention. This isn't a sign of the end times, an indication of the coming police state or even anything else slightly less dramatic.

This is what happens when two idiots attempt to occupy the dame place at the same time, it's physics. Neither of them are entirely innocent or guilty, just like most things in life.

This doesn't apply to this particular thread, but it does focus on LE and some peoples idea of it. It seems that many here and maybe throughout this country wants to have Officer Perfect, working in their communities. The guy who drives around on patrol waving at everyone or helps Granny across the Courthouse Square.

That's not who is keeping your communities safe! It's the proactive officers, who are more concerned with making stops on known & suspected criminals (what some here would classify as profiling). Following up on suspicions, that may turn into something, versus turning a blind eye, with the attitude of it's nothing. They might not be loved by all, but they keep the criminals in check.

You don't stay ahead of crime by being led around by a Motorola all night, you stay ahead of crime by being proactive. Those communities who have lowered their crime rates, do so by being proactive. The great thing about LE, is it has many different areas of specialization or duties. If you want to ride around an be Community Orientated Cop that's fine. But if you want to be in a proactive anti-crime duty, you can do that also. There's room for everyone, aslong as it's legal.

Years ago, the drunk would of gotten smacked in the face with a sap, ended up with a possible broken eye socket, nose, jaw, and nothing would of been said. The drunk would of kept his hands to himself in the future and not get up in PoPo's face ever again, end of story.

Hunter, I spent a lot of time in bars from 1972 to around 1981. Never saw a police officer hit a drunk or unruly patron with anything that I can recall. There might have been a smack or two that I have forgotten, but no broken eye sockets or beatings that I ever saw or heard of and I went to the roughest bars in these parts. Biker bars a good while before Harleys were mainstream cool. I was also in dancer bars, disco's and regular neighborhood bars. I did see the police gain compliance by reasoning, agreeing, cajoling, communicating. Also saw a few take-downs when nothing else worked. Perhaps what you describe were the tactics in the bigger cities or more populous states, but it wasn't in Iowa.

The patrons on the other hand did do some damage to each other from time to time. But few ever tried to resort to weapons of any kind. If they did it was because they were extremely drunk and were more humorous than frightening.

Gee, that really hurts my feelings. LOL!

Benn there a bunch of times. An inmate waves his hands at me in close like that, he's going down.




It's not, only the reasonable belief that a threat exists is required. You have to take in the total situation and what the cop reasonably believed. The fact is, the guy was walking and turned on him, then waved his hands past his face. Bounce him is what I would do.

I look at it this way.

If it was a �common citizen� in place of the cop and the cops would have been looking on from 3 feet away.

What would have happened to the �common citizen�?

Sure, you can get some people to comply by communication, but that doesn't always work everytime. The first two lowest levels of most agencies use of force policies are, officer presence and verbal communication/compliance. Both are non-physical.

FC,
Just getting back on after a long azz day of cutting wood. In all candor, I have not (and most likely will not) watched the video. A piece of video from Detroit really doesn't have much impact on my day.

As to the rest, one of the great things about these sites is everyone shares something in interests. We don't need to agree on everything as long as we can reason through it. I appreciate the thoughts. My edge is only getting honed with age/experience . Now, if I can just avoid LT bars....

George

Not much there for me to disagree with....damn well thought out.

George

Yes - thanks for your insight on this. Appreciate the perspective.

Force justified, excessive force not. Once physical control of the subject is achieved, no more force is reasonable.

Thank you George. I appreciate that.

Sorry I got a little sarcastic with you Kachad. You are obviously a good guy.

Exactly. Cops are above the law in a police state.

Two things for sure...the only winner is the bad guy and you can't be white, stupid and stay employed as a cop. [/quote]

no truer words were ever said

wow i couldn't have said it better myself.

keep dreaming cat schit someone will cover you up

Luckily we don't live in a "police state"..

Had I been a fly on the wall and seen this unfold between to "common citizens", I would have been moving as fast as I possibly could to break them up. As soon as the drunk threw that finger in the other guys face, I would have expected a right hook response. He made an aggressive move by turning and getting into the other guys face, made it worse with the finger. It's reasonable to expect an aggressive reaction.

Well said Blue.

Worse things have happened.

It's worth noting that if you start a fight and lose, you're not the victim of an assault....you're just the loser in a fight. And there is a difference.

I left half a pound of bacon in the oven too long and turned them into hockey pucks. Pissed me off.

laffin

Reminds me of the neo nazi fight in a local bowling alley I had the pleasure of dealing with when I was a rookie. 3 skin head wannabes picked a fight with the wrong guy and he beat them like a red headed step child. They cried "victim" and we politely told them they should be more careful when they decide to gang up on a lone guy.