good video

Shared it on FB

Passed that around to my friends down here.

Thanks Rick.

I was so convinced I returned my son's Mod 700 to him and said, "never mind."

Thank you Rick, but I fear the truth will be hard put to prevail against those with an agenda. miles

Ok now....I laughed.

I am curious about the lack of proper maintenance aspect. Has there been any research into rating the fire control designs of the major brands as to the relationship between poor maintenance and inadvertant discharge? Put another way, has any brand been proven to be safer/less safe than others when subjected to harsh conditions?

Guessing that "open" designs like the original M77s, M70s, Savage 110s etc, are less prone to collecting/holding gunk, than enclosed ones like the M700s?

good video.

but

It left me with a question;

Is it ever safe to adjust a Rem trigger and if so who can do it?

Snake

Wow, I had no idea the guilty Montana 700 was so hammered and nasty. Put away wet? Whose fault is that?
I guess this is one of those times where I'm glad the "legacy media" can no longer meter our information.

It's kind of like labeling all pre-fuel injection automobiles as "flawed by design" as a person could monkey with fuel control settings and burn the damn thing up. I could "adjust" the straps on a life-vest or safety harness to where the tag end hanging from the buckle is only 1/16". If that strap turns loose at a bad time I suppose it is the fault of the manufacturer. Plain to see for anybody who knows what they are looking at....

This should be viewed by everyone and Mr Belk should find another job.

Mr. Belk has graced us with his presence.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/users/40410

Just joined up yesterday.

Should we all give him a big Campfire welcome?

Nope!

Saw the video and read the transcript months ago. It was a carefully scripted version prepared by Remington lawyers who did a masterful job of not quite telling the whole truth. Remingtons have been doing this since the 1960's, long before CNBC existed to have an agenda.

If anyone watched the CNBC program and learned anything new they are either new to shooting, or have been living under a rock for 30+ years.

The pre-2007 Remington trigger is a flawed design. I've seen a perfectly clean 700 with a factory trigger drop the firing pin with no pull of the trigger. While it is extremely rare, and more likely to happen with a dirty or modified trigger, it can happen at any time to any 700. Remington knows this and has simply been deflecting the issue by trying to blame the shooters.

Off topic, but this video shows that here are some people out there who can't shoot. Look how some of those shooters are lifting their heads and/or flinching.

I have a Model 700 Long Action that is one of those culprits that has gone off on its own... mine has done it 3 times since I bought it in 1980...Its an ADL..

the last time it did that, a friend was unloading it and it shot a brand new Chevy pickups custom bed and paint job...

Since then, I rebarreled it and have used it as a single shot, and pretty much for range duty and a small amount of varmint shooting...I also had the chance to buy a trigger than someone took out to replace with a Timney.. and it hasn't done it since..

however I have never been on the door step whining to Remington...but it has motivated me to buy Savage, Winchester or Ruger over Remingtons...

but on a rifle that has done that, I think it is the responsibility of the owner to send it back to Remington, or repair the problem on their own...

the first time mine went off, it was over my shoulder and the barrel pointed at the ground and the bullet hit about an inch behind my heel...that shook me up...

so I returned it to Remington and they said it was in specs and nothing was wrong... but because of that problem of those 3 times, I admit, I have no intention of selling it and sticking someone else with the problem...

You guys are wasting your time by providing not only facts but personal experiences with the 700 aficionados. Whilst the chances are extremely slim of an AD and or the rest of the 700's shortcomings, you'll just be labeled a Remington hater. I own ONE 700, a 22-250 heavy barrel SS varmint rifle. Superbly accurate, but I use it exclusively on ground hogs from a fixed position and as a single shot mostly. jorge

I have trouble giving any credibility to someone who claims something happened 3x, and didn't do a damn thing to fix it. A trigger swap is easy and cheap.

Seafire,

Lets look into the future a bit, after you've passed away and that gun becomes a part of your estate. What happens then, if its passed on to a relative or sold at auction?

This is the best, impartial read I've seen about the 700 trigger.

http://txlady706.wordpress.com/2010...e-to-trigger-issues-on-existing-weapons/

No, I'm not a Remington hater. I just understand the problem and how to deal with it. Still own and use 700's and would buy another today if they were currently making anything I were interested in.

To the doubters:

Remington has known about the problem since 1945 and made a decision to not address the problem until 2007. Since that time there have been literally thousands of complaints filed with Remington about guns firing without pulling the trigger. I've seen numbers as high as 10,000 incidents. If it were simply a matter of dirty, or improperly modified guns you would be hearing about Winchester's, Savage's, Weatherby's and Ruger's doing the same thing. But you don't hear of that often, and when you do, there is no doubt about there being a defect or improperly modified gun.

ANYONE who has been around guns and shooting has known since at least since the 1980's that this was an issue. While they never admitted any defect Remington changed to a different safety during the early 80's that allowed the gun to be unloaded while still on safe. At that time they ran full page ad's in all the hunting and shooting magazines urging older guns be sent in to be coverted to the newer "safer" Safety. While they never admitted it, EVERYONE knew why they were doing this. The new safety never addressed the real issue, but it did drastically reduce the number of incidents by allowing the guns to be unloaded while still on "SAFE".

The CNBC program did not report a single nugget of new information that had not been widely known by everyone for at least 30 years, and by Remington insiders for nearly 60 years. And CNBC wasn't the first to run stories about the problem. The issue surfaced on national news programs such as "60 Minutes" and "20/20" during the 80's and 90's. Yet some claim CNBC has an agenda and made stuff up. Everything they reported can easily be verifed. It has been in the public record for decades.

CNBC has nothing to gain by lying, and everything to lose by being caught in a lie. Remington has nothing to lose by lying, and everything to gain. At this point the deception has gone on for so long and the costs to correct it are so expensive, it would completely backrupt the company in a matter of days if they ever admit the truth.

Geesh!

where did you guys come out with I am a Remington hater?

I don't stand on my soap box and whine about it..

first time I sent it happened I sent it back to the factory..
they told me there was nothing wrong with it..

second time, I just quit using it..

third time was many years later... I was older and wiser about guns at that time... so I just replaced the trigger..

that was 3 times over a 20 yr period.... so Q/C wasn't up to par on it...it was always a good shooter with the 06 barrel on it.. and now that it has a 6mm Rem barrel on it, it is the most accurate gun I own..

I've always figured out of the zillions of products someone makes, a few bad apples end up out the door...

mine ended up with a bad trigger... so it is taken care of..by me..

and if anyone thinks I have any motivation for 'making up' it discharging 3 times over 20 years.. well you don't see me trying to make a profit on it..not saying it to impress anyone nor am I using it as an excuse to slam Remington in any way..

I could have gotten rid of the rifle... I still own it..for 32 years now... so I fail to see someone's rationale that I am just making this up...I was just sharing and nothing more...

some guys on here need to get a life... and that is not aimed at Jorge...

good point, but the rifle has had the trigger replaced now, so there is no longer an issue... my son knows it will be his when that day comes anyway...

Same thing with dad's poor mans rifle as in a 721. Have had it re-worked and will go to which ever of my grandsons who becomes serious about hunting.

Just finished replacing the trigger in Dad's 700 BDL .308 this weekend with a Shilen unit. Why?? Check my old posts for the full story, but Dad stopped using it 25 years ago after blowing a hole in the bottom of a deer stand while flicking off the safety to unload it. This is a 5-digit rifle (high teens) that Dad received as a graduation present in 1962 and proceeded to hunt with for 25 years, trouble-free, until this happened back in the mid 80's.

You guys believe what you want, but I know my Dad was scared enough by this to immediately go out and get a tang-safety Ruger M77 .243 and hunt with it for the next 25 years in order to avoid using the Remington again.

No offense toward what you believe here but I think about 99.9% of the time when this happens its because the shooter inadvertently touches off the trigger at the same time they are taking the safety off. The other .1% is because of a faulty trigger job.

How come you don't hear about it with other makes? Wait I take that back, a long time ago German made Weatherbys had that problem and it was admitted to and corrected. Unlike Remington which keeps ignoring it. I just can't understand why, when in the presence of video, remarks by the designer of the trigger, numeorus law suits and more importantly personal accounts from Forum Members, some continue to deny the 700's trigger is a poorly-designed and unsafe POS?

I never looked at it as a poor design, I looked at it as being a Q/C issue with mine when it left the factory...

when I sent it in the first time it happened, it was over my shoulder and pointing down at the ground.. the shot hitting the ground about an inch behind my heel.. I was busy thanking God it hadn't hit my heel...

when I sent it in to Remington, they claimed there was nothing wrong with it...and sent it back.. like 4 months later..

as I bought newer rifles over time, there were just too many other alternatives available...plus I grew to like Winchesters better...
but between 1980 and 1990, my two rifles that I purchased and hunted with were the Rem 30/06 and a Marlin 444...
plus I had a Marlin 30/30 and a Savage 24 that were passed on by my granddad...

after the Remington incident the first time, I quit carrying a rifle muzzle down, when it was on the sling over my shoulder..

I had been taught that way by my step dad, and his logic was one might shoot an aircraft by accident, motivated by him being in the Air Force...stupid now, but when you were taught that bad habit as a kid, you don't question it..

if the Remington had not gone off, I'd probably still be carrying a shoulder slinged rifle Muzzle down...

How on Earth did you manage to get your finger on the trigger when you were carring it like that?

I've had remingtons that would fire when you take the safety off. Both of them bought used and someone had done their own trigger job on them. A little adjustment and they were fine.

Bb

I CAN make a Remington have a AD. Its called monkeying with the trigger screws. LOTS of guys do it who have NO practical experience. The trigger does not lock up right and you won't have proper engagement.

Factory Triggers are Heavy. Guys want to adjust them. But they don't have a clue what they are doing, this leads to AD's. Pick up any FACTORY Remington off the shelf. I would put down a bunch of money that you couldn't make it have a AD.

I have put a bunch of rounds through 700's. Both modified triggers, and unmodified triggers. Never in my life have I had a problem.

Even if I did, I wouldn't have a problem, as What is the FIRST RULE OF GUN SAFETY.....

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

People don't take care of things, how many guys take there stock off and clean a gun thoroughly?

People don't pay attention, people don't follow laws or suggestions.

Drinking Responsible and not Drinking and Driving saves lives, pretty obvious. But I have extricated enough people out of cars with Jaws to know people don't pay attention. Cigarettes cause Cancer, (pretty blatant right there) but lots of people still smoke.

Modifying the firearm voids the warranty and could lead to problems. Pretty Blatant, but people don't care.

Thats what is the problem, Not the Design.

If you can't follow Rule #1, what else aren't you following?

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.


I bolded the Important things.

He wasn't the one handling the rifle, it was his friend.

All of the AD's could not have been attributed to ignorance and poor handling. Even Mike Walker thinks there was a design problem.

Remington's response is apparently to justify itself (after they made some design changes); this is understandable and is regularly done by all manufacturers as a matter of course - this is what PR firms are paid to do.

Yes, you should ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, but shooters have a right to expect that a firearm will not AD unless the trigger is pulled.

I bought a Ruger 77 220 Swift Varminter 20+ years ago and it has the cleanest breaking trigger I've ever found. However, it is light and clean because a former owner lightened the trigger beyond safe limits and if you open the bolt after taking it off safety, it will fire. My solution - I never load it before use (it is after ,all a varmint rifle and shots are not unexpected) and never use the safety; ergo, no AD's.

Yes, yes, I know, I should get it fixed, but the trigger is just too sweet.

Given the obvious about gun safety, regardless of the rifle, the solution then is for Remington to sell rifles without safeties and just include that fact in the owner's manual-along with other safety profundities like "don't run with scissors"...

it was a trick Ingwe taught me...but it doesn't happen on Zebra Stripe Stocked Remingtons...

Anyone taking Remington's side on this easily buys into beliefs, they have simply made up their minds that someone is out to get Remington.

The goods were fairly gotten On Remington, they had a known problem and they refused to address it for fear that modifying the problem was an admission that there was in fact a problem. That admission alone had the potential of costing them tens of millions of dollars.

What does it take to overcome beliefs? There is documentation indicating the problem including solutions from the actual designer of the mechanism. Defending Remington is being silly, they messed up by not acknowledging and fixing the problem.

By the way, I had a Remington 700 misfire in a .243.

My friend (his rifle) was standing next to me when I let off the safety, and the thing went off, nothing close to the trigger.

I asked him WTF, and he said "yeah it's done that to me before, I don't know why it does that". He added that it seemed to do it when some set of things was involved, I can't remember exactly what he said. I just remember that when the misfire thing came up I'd had firsthand experience with it. I asked him if he'd done anything with the trigger and he said no, he liked it the way it came.

So anyone saying there wasn't an inherent design flaw is full of it. Makes ya wonder what else they incorrectly believe.

And the 700Bots answer to that is "never point the gun in an unsafe manner" which is of course intuitively obvious and total horseshit or even more idiotic is "don't hunt with a round in the chamber". A better answer would be for Remington just to make those POS 700s without a safety and call it a day. Seriously...

Not trying to sound condescending, but in my 40+ years of shooting and hunting, it never occurred to me to carry a rifle with safe on OR off with a round in front of the firing pin while in a sling upside down behind my back. That defies several safety procedures that I practice every time I even pick up a firearm.

Jorge,

I understand what you are saying about Remington trying to get rid of their legal liability, but on an engineered product, I expect some redundant safety equipment if possible, and on a firearm, it is feasible to put a mechanical safety. I don't know if you're an engineer, but as a naval aviator, you certainly have some knowledge of engineering from being knowledgeable about the planes you flew, and I'm sure you appreciated redundancy for safety even if you never had to rely on a redundant system for safety reasons. There is no good reason that Remington can't design and produce a trigger/safety mechanism that is safe and works as designed. They also should be able to set the triggers to a setting of 3 to 4 pounds when they leave the factory so people aren't tempted to mess with the trigger settings.

Maybe if Rick Jamison were the one to sue Remington, some people would change their mind about the merits of the case?

hey, I am the guilty party... and I agree with you a 100%... not one of the more intelligent things on my resume...

Meant no offence, it's not like I never did anything stupid...I only had one accidental discharge, thankfully. It was on a hair trigger TC Hawken. Dang sure learned not to touch the set trigger until actually aiming at the intended target. Scared the crap out of me AND my dog....Marty

Well, I'm not a Remington hater. I kind of like the feel of a 700 BDL. The Classic ain't bad either. Never had one discharge unless I commanded it to do so by pulling the trigger. I'm sure not gonna say it'll never happen. After all, triggers and safeties are mechanical things and mechnical things can fail.
My only involvement with the 700's trigger was when I lived in Nevada. My neigher brought ove a 700 ADL in .270 Win. and said that his couson was taking it out of the camper shell on his truck and it went off shooting his wife in both knees. I'm still figuring out how in the hell that happened but no matter. he asked me to see if there was anything wrong with the gun and to be honest I found nothing wrong. Never could make it go bang other than by the normal manner of pulling the trigger. I decided to try something and we set up the gun with a cartridge case loaded only with a primer. We had the guy show us how and where the rifle was in the truck and had him show us just how he removed the gun to unload it prior to putting it away. Sure as hell as he pulled the rifle from the case, he automatically removed the gun from safe and had his finger on the trigger. The very load snap of the primer going off was a surprise as we didn't tell him one was there. It does make me wonder about at least some of those ADs with Remingtons. I don't hate them but I much prefer 98 Mausers and Pre-FN winchesters of any type, be they push feed or controlled feed. I don't think I'll be seling off any of my Remingtons any time soon.
Paul B.

ST:

I didn't take it as any type of offense... you made a very good point...as I said, my old man taught me to carry one that way...as he said if one went off it could hit an aircraft...He was in the Air Force, but never really explained why he felt that way, or he had known of a bad experience...

of course being around AF Bases, there were lots of planes in the sky... where this happened in nothern MN, not so much..

Seafire, give it to the opposing attorney's as they can't seem to make any of the accused rifles fire in the safe position.

It's all operator error and internet stories until you see it happen on the firing line during a class at Camp Ripley with an unmodified rifle.

Then you quickly flush the kool-aid out of your system and the scales fall off of your eyes.

I have both knowledge and experience with this whoop te do.

I got a Remington M721 as my first rifle in the 50s, and it came with the Walker trigger. I only learned years later about who did the design and its handling at Remington. I learned that the split sear was developed and introduced so the Walker trigger design would not run afoul of another trigger patent. Mike Walker knew about the possibility of the trigger connector hanging up and allowing the rifle to fire on safety manipulation (usually safety release but not always). He came up with a fix, but Remington chose not to incorporate that 40 cent IIRC modification. The Walker trigger was also continued in the Model 700 when that design replaced the 721/722/725. A contemporaneous Remington internal memorandum documented that 1% of 700 rifles tested at the factory could be "tricked" into firing (Remington's term). Remington kept the Walker trigger in service until replaced by the XMarkPro "Fire Control Group" in the last few years. Remington also had a ferocious group of lawyers working for them.

I still had my M721, and bought a new M700 7mm RM BDL in 1972. I took it on an Idaho deer hunt and that rifle fired when I operated the safety. As a result of my training I had the muzzle in a safe direction. For the rest of the hunt I loaded only the magazine and loaded to fire only (I did shoot my first Rocky Mountain mule deer on that hunt).

After that happening I started paying attention to the Remington trigger story, and replaced my Walker triggers with a Canjar in the M721 and a Neil Jones modified trigger in a subsequent M700 that I swapped to a friend who wanted the action for its magnum head size for a target rifle he was building. He swapped me a .30-'06 head size rifle that is now a 6.5-'06 with the Neil Jones trigger. I still have the original Walker trigger in my collection.

Along the years I have met a few of the principals involved, and even interviewed Jack Belk. Remington sent me one of their XMark triggers when they introduced it, and I do like this trigger (better materials, no split sear, etc.). I didn't do any unauthorized maintenance or modification on my rifles and kept them up. I know several of the experts in this video too. I guess I could be an expert too, I own a briefcase and am from more than 50 miles away.

Ramblin': no issues with what you wrote whatsoever. Given the continuing stories here about Remingtons, I can assure you, I'll never own another. Yes mechanical things fail and one should always practice safety, but I see nothing wrong with hunting with a hot chamber. Hell with a double you are forced to hunt that way unless you own one of the new Blasers or Krieghoffs. I've never had an issue or for that matter read about any other rifle with issues like Remington's. Add the brazed bolt handles and flimsy sheet metal extractors and well, there's just no way I'll own one/ jorge

Oh, now come on SU35, you been drinking that koolaid that I am accused of drinking? LOL

At age 59, guess I have just been lucky.

I only have one issue, no one has ever repeated it in court, and did you see the lousy condition those rifles were in?

Well put goalie, now how does good information and fact get through to those who make up their minds based on unfounded beliefs that this is all hogwash? People who arrive at and defend positions like this do it on everything in their lives, especially politics. They make up their minds something is bull and that's that, you will never change their minds.

as a species we would be extinct if we had to rely on this type of collective mentality's instinct, because to say it is faulty is being really nice.

The list of arguments used by those who defend Remington looks like the moron's list of lamest excuses and BS. One of my favorites, "the experts couldn't get one to misfire on the stand", so it can't happen?

So as I've posted I saw it firsthand and didn't really think that much until this controversy came up, I like Remingtons and have had a slew of them. Try arguing that it's real with someone who says it isn't, it's an argument that will never go anywhere against someone who has made up their mind.

Any given political argument is the same exact thing, you can be well versed and chock full of supporting facts and documentation but that matters not to someone who makes up his mind based on a different set of beliefs not based on any tangible facts. All facts and reality are part of the collective BS in this person's minds, they lost the ability to distinguish between fact and unsupported rhetorical positions.

People who can't sort fact from fiction on a simple issue like this, those who are prone to picking a side of the argument and believing it's some sort of conspiracy to bring down an arms manufacturer, are the problem that has this country in such a mess. They are prone to backing the wrong side for all the wrong reasons on most everything.

That's just the way it is, one issue is the same as another, why would this type of person be any more likely to be right about anything else as they were about this?

Heck, half the people responding to this topic are still in the Remington camp and think they are right, they have no personal experience with a misfire yest they are going to denounce everyone else who did.

What do you call this, give it a name.

I'm in the Remington camp, and have LOTs of experience with their misfires. They all had one thing in common, an idiot... either behind the trigger or behind the screwdriver.

Yep....never had one do it to me with a factory set trigger. Have owned several from the early 70's on....

Have had the same thing with a Mini MkX Mauser that was set too light by a "smith"....

So, when an officer shows up with their new duty-issued rifle, and the instructors have to mount the scope, bore sight it, and show the guy how it works, I am to believe that, while he didn't even put the scope on himself due to inexperience, he not only messed with the trigger, but then lied about it when it had (repeatable) issues with firing upon manipulation of the safety?

I'm not buying it. Sorry.

And I did drink the Remington kool-aid in the Corps. The M40 was allegedly the best thing since sliced bread, and who was I to tell the STA guys that it wasn't????

I posted my experiences. That's where an opinion comes from. That some believe otherwise doesn't hurt my feelings in the least.

Actually, you posted a lack of experience. You have never experienced a factory stock trigger going "BANG" when the safety was manipulated. IMO, that is a good thing.
Some other people have. I am, unfortunately, one of them.

I personally don't have any idea what it takes to make that specific trigger do that, and I don't know how common it is. I don't know whether or not just shooting the rifle and not cleaning it can do it, or whether it has to do with the moon's cycle and the tides. I just know it scared the [bleep] out of me.


FWIW, my feelings are not hurt either.

I never said that an idiot couldn't adjust them at Remington either. Even so, that's a human error, not mechanical.

Hell everyone knows guns kill people, people don't kill people.....

As my old Remington 788 has served me well I've never felt the need to buy a model 700. I haven't watched the video nor read the other post.

That said, I have fired a few model 700s and never liked the fact that the safety had to the pushed to the OFF position to extract a live round from the chamber.

One event doesn't make a study but the one accidental discharge I have witnessed with a model 700 convinced me that there must be a better way. I took that rifle to a Remington certified gunsmith who showed ME how the safety could be changed so that the safety could be left ON while extracting a live round. He would not do it himself as Remington would not allow him to keep his certification if they found he had done so. I made the change.

With no fanfair I think that Remington has changed their 700 safeties on newer models so live rounds can be extracted with the safety on.

One can easily argue that a trigger so easily set to "function" in such a dangerous manner is most definitely a "mechanical" problem.

Kinda like the Pinto blowing up wasn't solely a problem with bad drivers rear-ending other drivers.......

One time I adjusted a Remington trigger, which I have done hundreds of times. I did it quickly and didn't run the safety checks. The rifle would fire on bolt drop and lift. I then did it again and took my time, no issues after that. I simply set the sear engagement too short. My fault.

And here I like the locking bolt feature, and install those earlier safeties on my M700's that still have the slot in the bolt to allow it. Not only that, on my really serious hunting M700's, I use the original style "flat knob" safety that was deemed unsafe at any speed........


Casey

now the show is on netflix

Wonder why no one talks about the 722/721 series having "trigger problems"? They have a similar Walker type trigger as the M-700, or at least they look pretty similar to me. The old 725 has a safety that looks like a 1917 Enfield and I could see how it would be different.

DF

I had an unaltered 308 go off while pulling it up into a box stand. the only thing that happened was the rope wrapped around the wrist and disengaged the safety. no way for the trigger to be pulled. BOOM!

I dont own any remington bolt guns any longer. My buddy watched the show last night on netflix and told me to sell his 700 tactical for him.
even though he hasnt had any I.D.'s his son shoots the rifle and he doesnt want to take the chance.
Thats the thing. its not like an ice maker that may run over and make too much ice. Its a rifle!
If you were told your light switch may electrocute you 1;1,000,000 times you switched it on i bet youd replace it or buy some candles.

Sorry Pat but I don't agree. While I wil concede many of these ADs were caused by a lack of situational awareness and downright stupidity, many were not. The 700 system is an inferior one even for the simple fact the damned safety doesn't even lock the bolt. I'll never own another one. jorge

You pull up a LOADED rifle?

and let me guess.. you tied the rope around the front sight,then pulled up, and when it went off ( exactly as it was designed to do ) it winged you.
And now your lawyer is suing Remington.

...but you think Wby's are the stuff. Ewwww...

can't find anything on "google" on Weatherbys..

For what it's worth, I own 6 Remington's and have never had the gun go off by itself. Why would you get rid of the gun, when it's a simple fix to swap out the trigger. I just picked up a 700 mtn. rifle (used) in 7mm/08, for my daughter. I adjusted the trigger (as I have done on all my Remington's) and there is still a small amount of creep. If I can't get it out (and I don't touch the sear), I will put a Rifle Basics trigger in it, and call it a day.

nope.
muzzle down with rope around the wrist.
loaded? yeah, obviously. who would claim that the rifle loaded itself and then discharged? So you dont advocate loading 700's? A round in the chamber of a 700 with the safety on is not safe?
I guess thats why my primary is now an SBS96 action.

ANd by the way... what does an empty or loaded chamber have to do with the striker falling?
regardless of if the firing pin falls on a loaded round or an empty. it shouldnt fall unless the trigger is pulled and the safety is of.
miss the point much?

I don't even climb over a fence with a round in the chamber. As for climbing, due to my location, I end up doing quite a bit of hunting from a Summit Viper climbing stand. It never crossed my mind to have a round in the chamber when dragging it up behind me.

I guess I am just curious as to why wouldn't you just load when you get up into the stand?

oh i dont know..
I guess i'm kind of curious what my gun handling has to do with remingtons rifle dropping the striker when the safety is disengaged?
Or why you insist on changing the subject?
Regardless of how I choose to carry a firearm, cross a fence, or pull a rifle up a tree...
The thing should not fire when the safety is disengaged.
Or did you miss that?
If you want you can make a seperate thread about gun handling.

Go back and read my posts about the safety on the Remington 700. Manipulation of the safety should not make any weapon go BANG, I agree.

That said, I was/am sincerely intrigued by the mindset of not unloading a firearm before tying a rope to it and dragging it up a tree/stand behind you.

I personally would not be comfy with ANY firearm that is hot being dropped 10-20 feet directly below me, safety be damned, and I am never in such a hurry that unloading the chamber for the trip up is going to alter my hunting success in any way.

The way I was raised, the old-timers made damn sure nobody climbed over obstacles with a hot chamber when hunting. Tying a rope to a rifle that was hot and dragging it up a tree would have given them a heart-attack. I was very surprised to see someone stating not only that they had done it, but that apparently they still do and will into the distant future.

Late to the party here- just watched the video. I have numerous 700s with the Walker trigger. Over 100s of days in the field and 100s of days at the range, I've never had an AD with a 700 or... any other rifle.

these are not AD's.
nothing accidental about it.

It is a design flaw.
Jury Verdicts and Appellate Court Opinions of Remington�s Defective Fire Control

1.In Lewy v. Remington, 836 F.2d 1104, 1106-07 (8th Cir. 1988); the Eighth Circuit upheld a finding of punitive damages against Remington in 1985.


2.In Campbell v. Remington Arms Co., 1992 WL 54928 (9th Cir. 1992)(unpublished opinion); affirmed a jury verdict of $724,000 based on a fire on bolt closure, finding no error.


3.Later in 1992, the Texas Supreme Court, in Chapa v. Garcia, specifically describes Remington�s fire control as �defective.�


4.In 1994, a Texas jury rendered a verdict in Collins v. Remington after Glenn Collins lost this foot to a Model 700 accidental discharge. The jury found that the fire control was defective and awarded a $15 million in exemplary damages. The total verdict was in excess of $17 million.

5.The verdicts stopped with the Collins verdict. After that, Remington settled all claims. Instead of recalling or replacing the defective fire control, Remington has quietly paid almost $20 million to settle claims out of court, finally replacing the fire control only in 2007.

Hmm...facts and detailed information - interesting - thanks.

Why the hell would you pull a loaded rifle up into a treestand? It's no friggin' wonder people get shot in the woods with people doing stupid [bleep] like that.

Irrelevant point. Gun safety or the lack thereof, is not an excuse for a poor and unsafe design.

Will this ancient nonsense never die? This is 30 year old mdeia hype.

And in this case, blaming the design is the excuse folks make for poor maintenance and improper adjustment of those triggers.

Even an m70 trigger can be rendered unsafe and dangerous if some idiot adjusts it improperly.

The Remingon m700 trigger desgin was around for a full generation before the USMC decided to use it a their Sniper rifle in the mid 1960s. If that design was truely flawed it would have never been used. When they are set up and maintained to factory specs, they work just fine.

I have been around 2 rifles that fired when not directed to. The first was a post 64 Model 70 .300 Winchester belonging to a friend. It was a new rifle and the trigger had never been adjusted. I put the rifle up to my shoulder, pushed the safety forward and pulled the trigger. Nothing happened. Looked at the safety, and it had only gone to the middle position. Pushed the safety forward to the fire position, and it fired, with my finger nowhere near the trigger and the rifle not near my shoulder. Gave me a big, fat, bloody lip on the day before my wedding. I think that was God's way of telling me I shouldn't get married to her. He was right

The other was my rifle, a custom 700 in .280. We were on a caribou hunt in Alaska, and my friend (USAF F15E pilot) had borrowed the rifle (we used his personal airplane, so it seemed like a fair trade). I wasn't near him when it happened, but he said that after seeing a caribou, he pushed the safety forward and the rifle fired without him touching the trigger. His next shot killed the caribou. That trigger had been played with by a previous owner. I was never able to make it happen again, but I adjusted the trigger for more sear engagement just to be safe. I have never had a problem with another 700 trigger.

My dad saw the TV show about how unsafe the trigger was, and became extremely concerned about how "dangerous" his Remington 721, which he has owned for over 50 years, had suddenly become. I asked him if he had ever had an unintentional discharge with it. He, of course, said no. That rifle, by the way, has the best trigger pull I have ever felt on any rifle.

Seems to me that if you don't screw with the trigger (unless you know what you're doing...it's not hard really), keep your guns clean and maintained, and practice good gun safety (which, btw, does not include pulling a cocked and loaded rifle into a treestand by a rope), you should have no problems. Mechanical problems can and will happen with any machine. Good gun safety will prevent 99% of the "accidents".

As a kid, my brother and I and a couple of friends possessed and had access to a number of cheaper and older, and usually well-worn .22s and shotguns.

We found, usually without too much effort, that we could get almost any gun to intentionally "fire" unintentionally. Fiddling with things, playing with adjustment screws, wedging a pine needle in the right place, smacking the gun in just the right way, jamming the firing pin, smacking the butt down, etc., etc. We made one gun fire 100% every time the safety was released. Another would fire 100% of the time when the bolt was closed with any vigor at all. Almost any of these results could be duplicated by excessive wear, a broken part, and/or dirt and debris.

Stupid kid stuff? Yes. But quite educational. We just wanted to know how everything worked. Every discarded clock, radio and tv set that we got a hold of was quickly reduced to so many parts and pieces.

We didn't do any permanent damage to the guns or ourselves. We had been taught good basic gun safety. We were very aware of where the muzzle was pointed, and policed each other well.

We were taught not to trust safeties, which we verified with our experiments. We treated all guns as if they were loaded, and we knew there was always a chance, no matter how remote, that a gun could discharge unintentionally any time there was a loaded round in the chamber. And it didn't make much difference what company name was on the barrel.

I think it is all pretty simple. Humans can fail. Anything mechanical can fail. I never completely trust any safety, any trigger, or any loaded chamber. Even with the bolt removed I do my best not to point a gun in an unsafe direction.

Just be smart about it, and be careful, no matter how much fun you are having.

JUST FACTS, not enuendo and conjecture. Sure you can take ANY trigger assembly and render it unsafe but these were not the case:

why doesn't Jack Belk post here?....he sure posts away on AR....as if anyone cares...

Does he? I miss Jack.

The CNBC clip was clearly put together by trail lawyers looking for a jackpot jury.

I can recreate the problem shown in the video where the gun discharged when the bolt handle was touched. It requires that the trigger be improperly adjusted. My profession is Controls Engineering. I have been designing, building, programming, testing, operating, troubleshooting, and maintaining all manner of machines all my life. It is no particular "trick" to make a machine operate improperly. I've seen it many many times. I make my living making machines operate correctly, but I have never been able to fix "stupid."

The Remington M700 is an excellent rifle with a proven track record of many years and many units fielded. Accidents can happen with any firearm, but they happen because of people. A friend of mine blew up the TV while mishandling a loaded shotgun (not a Remington). Another friend blew a hole in her car door while closing the bolt on her deer rifle with heavily gloved hands on a cold opening day (not a Remington). Another guy I know real well after killing a big buck tripped and fell in the woods with a short-barreled rifle at sling arms and the muzzle right next to his head when it discharged, narrowly missing blowing his head clean off (not a Remington).

I have never seen a Remington rifle, or any other make, come from the factory prone to firing when not commanded to do so in the prescribed manner. Leave the adjustments to trained, experienced, qualified personnel.

Exactly why I had dad's replaced in his old Rem 721 after it was given to me at his passing. Not purty, but was still his go-to as a back up to his Savage .300 (which my brother received as he should have).

That's no fun. People don't know how comical they appear when they try to bring things down, in order to "lift" something else up.

Sounds like they'd probably be busy cruising paths in the woods.

Some early Ruger M77's had this AD issue and back in the mid 80's Ruger had a recall to change out a component in the trigger/safety mechanism. An M77 270 Win that I still own had an AD as I was holding it and it was on safety with my hand nowhere near the trigger. Thank God the butt of the gun was on top of a tree stump with the barrel pointed straight up in the air. I sent the 270, along with a 243 back to Ruger to have them repaired and neither gun has ever done it since.

I own a few Rem 700's and do have an old 60's vintage that also had an AD a few years ago. I replaced the trigger mechanism, as I have now on all my M700's just as a precaution. I like the Timney's better than the OEM trigger anyway as they are a better trigger design and break a lot more crisp and can be set at a lot lower break force. Whether or not this is a design issue or not I don't know, but I'm not taking any chances. Other than the trigger the Rem M700 is a fine rifle. I own Rem 700's, Win 70's, Ruger 77's and a Savage 110 and each has it's own strengths/weaknesses IMO.

Remington's design clearly had problems and accidents occurred (otherwise Mike Walker would never have said the things he did. This is the crux of the argument.

I have an M77 in 220 Swift. The trigger is crisp, but if the safety on and you push the tang safety off, it will discharge. I'd send it to Ruger, but I fear the trigger would be changed and be a poor pull. I never use the safety; I don't load until ready to shoot.

they just had a kid on the news who clamed to lean his rem. 12 ga. shot gun up against the truck to put his gear away, the gun slid over, fell to the ground and went off. shot him in the foot.
he claimed the saftey failed. "if the saftey is on the gun should not discharge when dropped" brian williams said. what? why was the gun loaded in the first place, when you're done hunting?
i learned about guns as a young kid...a saftey is a mechanical device that CAN and WILL FAIL!
it seems that when people fail to take responsability for their own negligence they need to have someone compensate them.

Man, you guys have run this thread to death....get over it. Myself, and military snipers,and a s hitload of american hunters prefer the 700 by Remington. Go back to your CZ's and Tikka's and grow up. S hit happens. it's life , go deal with it. Good Grief!!!

Yeah, [bleep] to [bleep] rifles. Spot on:

jorgeI, you got some turrrrible 'splaning to do to do to swampass on how you could screw up the perfect rifle..

Finger off the trigger until ready to fire! This is just folks blaming the firearm for their own negligence.

I have a similar picture of a Remington. I don't care to ever own one.

Not going to read this whole thread. The issue is rare but real--unmodified Remingtons have been seen to fire when the safety is pushed forward.

So, what about the rifles that are able to fire WITHOUT you touching the trigger? Pushing the safety from "safe" to "fire" has nothing to do with the trigger....

[quote=RyanScott)

Not going to read this whole thread. The issue is rare but real--[/quote]

"rare" I feel is an important word. Obviously SOME have had real problems. Some is human error. What is the number of rifles with problems COMPARED to the number of rifles produced. It has to be a small %.

I've owned Rem 700s since 1975. More than I can remember. Currently I have MORE 700s than any other Brand/Model. NONE, not even one has EVER exhibited any of the FEW malfunctions claimed.

I'll smile and say, " I guess I'm just lucky."

The event is rare but it doesn't mean that the firearm did what they say it did. I don't believe it and this is people trying to either get compensation or excuse their stupidity--as far as I am concerned. - If you can't duplicate the failure, then try dupicating the stupidity. The latter would be far easier. - Dai

"Safety" when it comes to firearms as someone once said is "between the ears of the person handling the firearm" Every weapon is a loaded weapon, so handle it appropriately. The only weapon that should be handled as a unloaded weapon is one with the bolt open. The whole Remington hoopla about trigger safety is just another thing that is going to lead to even heavier triggers. They are just going to become more "lawyer proof". Triggers are meant to go off easily. That's what makes them feel good. It is my guess that the reason that we don't see american firearms with set triggers is this very lawyer proofing.

Balls, Balls, Balls to it!

If you don't want someone to get hurt. Don't point the gun their way.

The best bolt-action-rifle safeties block the sear and pull it back off the trigger.

All the Remington "safeties" that I've studied and worked-on block the trigger � not good enough to suit me.

Ken - doesn't the Mauser safety (and Model 70?) lock the firing pin and wouldn't this be the safest way of all? If the firing pin can not move at all, it can't strike the primer.

I have to say, I have not only personally witnessed a Remington discharge, it was from dirt. Allow me to elaborate.

I have a god friend that I hunted with all thru high school. back about 1980-81, I guess, he had a BDL in .270 (still has it). When we came out of the woods and he lifted the bolt, the gun fired. Being goof ball kids (I guess I was about 17 at the time). We ran thru a fair amount of ammo, and found that you could make the gun fire by manipulating the bolt! Safety had to be off, but it would fire or 'click' almost every time. Although we had not shot any game that day, David (the owner), had maniputlated the action multiple times. Even though it was a very small town, we had a Trinidad School of Trades degreed 'smitty, so we took it right over.

The result? Exactly what Remington states in the ad. Although the gun was kept painstakingly clean (still is), the 'smitty found ALOT of pine bark in it. Seems that Dave & I were using the old 'Baker" type hug-the-tree stands to hunt. With the rifle across his back and an empty chamber, bark shards were going down the barrel and depositing in the bolt and action. Manipulating the bolt just worked it around, and over MUCH time (like 3 years @ 4-6 times per month for 4-5 months), it got packed with enough dirt internally to cause it.

Solution was to take the gun and fully disassemble it, then put all parts into a parts washer. That was like say, about 1981, he still hunts with that gun to this day, and it has never happened since.

Or me.

The very best safeties also pull the firing pin back and hold it while on 'half safe' so that a hot chamber can be emptied.

The world would be a better place if rifles didn't come with a safety.

It is a good thing Remingtons have them. They are often the only thing holding back the firing pin. The Safety on many Remingtons is in effect the trigger.

700,s make great stakes for tomato plants!!!!!!!!!

iambrb posted
"David (the owner), had maniputlated the action multiple times"

Does not sound a remington problem to me.

The trigger on my old Rem. 700 Sendero was the best stock trigger I have ever owned. Very easy to adjust and test. Never any kind of misfire

You just have to be smarter than the gun. Few are.....

rule 1: Never point a gun at some thing you aren't willing to destroy(pickup)

My point of view is that everyone can or have had their own personnel experiences. Mine came several years ago one day at the range. I was shooting a riffle(major manufacture out of NY)to prepare for the upcoming deer season. All was good, riffle was still on shooting great groups, then bammm. The rifle was sitting on the bench resting securely on several sand bags front and rear, with a round in the chamber. I was looking through my spotting scope at my target when a loud bang rang out and I was struck in the stomach with what felt like a sledgehammer. When I look up my rifle was not on the bench but in my hands that had grabbed for my stomach. The rifle had discharged with no one ever touching it. I was in shock that this could have happened. Trying to figure out what had just happen I asked several of my friends, who were standing behind the bench at the time of the incident, what happened? They all said the rifle just went off. I proceeded to shot 2 rounds with no incidents, then on the third round it happened again. After trying everything i could think of to find out what was happening, I found that after I chambered a round if I barely touched the bolt the rifle would discharge. Thank God no one was hurt.

The worst part of the whole thing came when the gun was sent back to the company. They instantly went on the defensive saying that I altered the trigger. I told them I can positively with out a doubt say that I nor the store I purchased it from altered the trigger. Their stance was your a "LIAR", great customer service. Talked with several people at the company with same results. When asked how they were so sure I altered the trigger they said because the was no loctite on a particular screw in the trigger assembly. When asked how they could be certain that someone from their company didn't forget that step, they just said couldn't happen here. Got the REPAIRED gun back from the company (after paying for said repair) and now it would only discharge occupationally. Company said bad ammo, ya that is it 5 different ammo manufactures and all the same problem. It appeared to me from looking at the rounds that the firing pin was not hitting the primers hard enough to detonate every round. Needless to say but took the gun back to dealer who graciously allowed me to pick out a new gun.

Long post but I am around guns all day every day and treat all guns with utmost respect and safety, That is the most important thing. All guns a dangerous but its the lack of good gun safety that leads to unfortunate accidents.

just my story and 2 cents.

trash away if you like.

This is absurd when talking about police and military snipers.

I had the same deal happen on one of my Remington 700's years ago. My nephews I take deer hunting don't believe me and always rag me about leaving the bolt open on my deer rifles while in the deer blind. I've usually got a round chambered in the blind, but figure there is no way possible it can fire if the bolt is up instead of closed. And of course, the rifle is always pointed down range!
And, I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber while I'm walking around.

mine goes around at night shooting at people all by itself.........

tag

FAR from being a "Remington hater", if I were gonna buy a new center-fire rifle today, I'd buy a Remington 700 BDL. It's a beautiful rifle as well as being an extremely accurate rifle and the "price-is-right". What more could a rifleman ask?

In addition, I've been asked what brand of rifle and what caliber they should buy for their sons by two different friends who knew I'd been using guns and hunting since I was 12 years old (I'm 76 now) and respected my knowledge of firearms in general and center-fire rifles in particular since I am a long-time "rifleman".

In both cases, I recommended they buy a Remington 700 BDL in .30/06, .270, .280 or .308 depending on what kind of hunting their sons were gonna do. My initial recommendation is generally always a .30/06 because I believe it is "enough caliber" for almost all North American big game with the possible exception of the "big bears".

That said, I will get to my point.

My bestest hunting buddy has an early model Remington 700 BDL in .30/06... and he is an extremely careful, very knowledgeable shooter and hunter... definitely not some lame-brained idiot.

His early-model BDL fired upon closing the bolt and he was very sure he didn't touch the trigger. Fortunately, due to his careful handling of all firearms, his rifle was pointed down range at his club's rifle range when this incident occurred.

He had his gunsmith go over the rifle very thoroughly and the gunsmith could find NO REASON for the rifle to fire itself. The action and the whole rifle was "very clean" and so, debris and/or a dirty rifle wasn't the cause.

My friend contacted Remington Arms about the problem and was told that no such "problem" existed. In the meantime (a month or more), he had gone to the rifle range again and had the SAME THING happen AGAIN!!!

Being the kind of careful rifleman he is, my friend KNEW that IT HAD happened TWICE (the rifle fired upon closing the bolt) and decided that he wouldn't take any more chances with it.

He had his gunsmith order and install a new, high-quality, after-market trigger and never looked back. My friend has never had a re-occurrence of the problem.

Therefore, because my friend is an intelligent, responsible, careful man, I think that the "problem" DOES exist and is in the trigger group or trigger assembly somewhere.

My friend's theory is that it seems to exist in the very EARLY MODEL 700s, but apparently not in the LATER MODEL 700s. I have no opinion on my friend's "theory".

However, if I had an older Model 700 Remington, I would certainly have the trigger REPLACED with a good-quality after-market trigger ASAP... because whether or not Remington admits it, the problem DOES exist... possibly ONLY in older Model 700s... in my opinion based on my bestest hunting buddy's experience with his older Model 700 Remington BDL center-fire rifle.

The above information is the absolute truth as told to me by my very honest, good friend and bestest hunting buddy... and I offer this information ONLY because I wouldn't wanna see anyone get hurt if it could be prevented.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Sealed documents in a case where a young man died here in Montana were recently released to his father. Should be interesting. None of this does anything to do with how I feel about the rifles. I own Remingtons and my kids will probably hunt with them at one time or another. mtmuley

There are lots of documents proving Remington knew this was possible. I certainly don't dispute that it is rare, but it does happen.

An internal memo warning of a potential "unsafe condition" dating from 1946

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Se...gton_Under_Fire/Documents/Rem_Doc_02.pdf

A proposal in 1948 to redesign the trigger.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Se...gton_Under_Fire/Documents/Rem_Doc_09.pdf

Some of the thousands of letters sent to Remington over the years complaining of guns firing with no pull of the trigger. Some estimates are as high as 10,000 compliants to Remington over the years.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Se...gton_Under_Fire/Documents/Rem_Doc_06.pdf

Remington says they have never been able to duplicate the problem, but here is a letter from 1975 where they admtted to having 2 rifles fire with no pull of the trigger.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Se...gton_Under_Fire/Documents/Rem_Doc_07.pdf

In 1980 there were 152 rifles were returned to Remington with owners complaining the guns fired with no pull of the trigger. Remington technicians were able to confirm that 55 of the 152 would do this.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Se...gton_Under_Fire/Documents/Rem_Doc_08.pdf

If 152 rifles were returned in just 1 year, the 10,000 complaints over a 60+ year manufacturing span is believeable. This does not count guys who didn't return their rifles, or just paid to have the trigger replaced by aftermarket.

A 1968 Consumers Report article where a factory new,unmodified 700 dropped the firing pin more than 100 times with no pull of the trigger.

Page 2, bottom left paragraph.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Se...gton_Under_Fire/Documents/Rem_Doc_13.pdf



I own a 1974 rifle that behaved just like the one in the Consumer report article. The rifle was almost 20 years old before it ever gave a problem. It dropped the firing pin on an empty chamber several times over about a 1 hour period. The problem stopped as suddenly as it began, and has not repeated in over 10 years.

I bought mine in '76, Never fired unless I pulled the TRIGGER
BB

I had no problem with the stock trigger/safety assembly in terms of any discharge. That said, I think there is some reason for concern so I put in a Timney. I really like the new trigger and this question would have been in the back of my mind otherwise. The trigger/safety assembly is quite easy to change.

It must have blown his ears!

I'll bet he had a round in the chamber....LOL of coarse he did. And what are you told about having a round in the chamber and you might drop or bang the rifle (any make) and what "may" happen?????

I currently own 11 Remington 700's and have had several dozen other 700's over the years. Personally I have never had any trouble with accidental discharges (except when she rubbed it to much)oooops!! Sorry must have been dreaming. lol Time to get back on track...If their is a real problem with the trigger assembly then remington should address it properly. It would be in their best interest and would show some dedication to the safety and quality control they should be striving for that seams to be lacking in recent years. Also the customer should be aware that any firearm must be handled as if it was loaded. Don't act as if you know it isn't . What harm is it to be safe rather than sorry?

As one who shot on the 82nd Airborne Rifle team, no one pulled any wool over my eyes,.....

If Remington's safety is lacking in recent years, why did they come out with a new improved trigger of late?

Furthermore, it amazes me about production rifles, they are production rifles, if you want a "Custom Rifle" ....go buy one, from a Custom Rifle Maker.

I'll be glad if'n they move to Oklahoma where there will be a 2 mile long line to work for them and make the bestest rifles in the U.S.!!!! LOL!!!!!!

Good Video!

At the range today a fellow was sighting in an older Remington 700 that was just returned to him from Remington. Seems he pushed the safety off and you can guess what happened. They said it can't happen and the rifle probably had some dirt in the trigger mechanism. That rifle was super clean.

Up graded it free of charge anyway.

????



Addition: He was also sighting in a new Rem. in .270W. He said it was a 770. Looks like he is still a Remington fan.

I think its interesting Remington's says in the piece that only a few of the many cases filed have ever gone to trial and those were resolved in Remington's favor.......that's because standard legal strategy is to settle the ones you won't win, with a big check, and go to trial when you have a 80% plus chance of winning the case.

People can push a case to trial especially if they feel Remington or the gun company is not addressing their issue sufficiently (aka offering enough money). That has always been the case with civil lawsuits.

I enjoyed the video and it is about what I expected. I have shot Remington M700's for 20 years and have never had the rifle fire on its own when I closed the bolt regardless of the safety position.

Speaking as a lawyer, I would be very surprised if such settlements do not all include a secrecy clause. (I know of one of theirs that did.)

50% sing songs of glory in the halls of vahalla for remington 700,s

the other 50% would rather have a sister making a living in a house of ill repute than have a friend or relative around them with a remington 700

I thought Remingtons response was alot of jadda jadda and blah blah blah. It said NOTHING. Why didnt they take the oppurtunity to explain how the trigger works. Instead, this man explains the problem or atleast part of the problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SqRH3tHhdM

Well, its not the whole truth becouse as long as you have a loose part in the housing (the connector) you cant be 100%. No matter how well YOUR trigger works, the connector is an unnecessary part that can make the rifle fail. It would even have been cheaper to use one part, a whole trigger body without the connector.

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"My father makes beer in the bathtub; my mother makes strawberry gin.
My sister makes love for a living. My word how the money rolls in!"

Remington can spend zillions on propaganda videos that do not address the problem with the 700, and the Remington fans here can rant and rave to defend that mechanism until they are blue in the face. But, all of that amounts to nothing more than a housefly in the face of actual experience by shooters.

There was a lot of experienced shooting up this way by Campfire guys during the past weekend. Some of that shooting was with Rem 700s - rifles that had never before malfunctioned in the hands of owners who had shot them a lot. There were significant on-the-spot witnesses.

One Rem 700 fired itself upon closing of the bolt. BANG ! (I did not witness that event - related to me by the shooter.)

Another fired itself when loaded/cocked but nothing near the trigger when the safety was gently disengaged. BANG !

Some very experienced shooters witnessed these Rem 700 discharge events. The latter trigger/safety mechanism was thoroughly examined as soon as that rifle could be gotten to a bench. Clean as a whistle - no unusual wear or tolerances.

Now, again, what was in that video, and what have the Rem 700 fans said?

interesting

would be nice to hear the 1st hand accounts of casper the unfriendly ghost touching off those remmys

I personally witnessed both incidents. I was some distance away from the first incident, but saw the shooter was not in position to fire and the gun went off. Didn't know the details at that time but the shooter was very shaken up.
Second time I was talking to a guy with the same name as me. We were less than 30 feet away and I saw the shooter close the bolt, the gun went off and the shooter said I didn't fire that. Everyone agreed he should get another shot and that one didn't count.
I've been around 700's most of my life and never saw that happen before, then twice in the same day. Luckily everyone was experienced and practicing safe gun handling or it could have ruined someone's day.

wow
one when the safety was being disengaged and another when the bolt was being closed






not good................................

The elder Crossman was right when he wrote that departing from the '98 Mauser was like departing from the North Pole � that the only direction from there is south.

� especially in regard to the way that the safety works.

True on all points!

I have an old Ruger 77 and when I found out that there was a recall on them due to a design flaw with the overtravel adjustment set screw, I sent off for the replacement part and installed it even tho I never had a problem with the original trigger. 12 years ago when I learned of this problem with the Remington Walker trigger, I replaced it with a Timney trigger with the ULA 3 position safety. This locks up the bolt when on safe, pushing down on the safety lever unlocks it for unloading. IMO it's just prudent to do what's necessary to allow for the best and safest design available. BTW I had heard of 2 incidents of AD with M700s, firing when the safety was taken off, among my acquaintances. Remington's change from a locked bolt when the safety's engaged to an unlocked bolt allowing for unloading without disengaging the safety amounted to an admission that there was a problem.