Ever see one? I read on the TPWD sight that" contrary to popular belief, their are no black mountain lions in Texas". So, the first time I made what must be a mistake was heading south a few years back between Hamilton and Lampassas. Big bloody mess road kill. Long black tail and round head with particular ears stood out to me sort of subconsciously. After several seconds both my wife and I sort of looked at each other and I asked her what she saw- she said looked like big cat and I said I thought same.
More recently on my lease near Moran, about 45 mile NE of Abilene. Driving slowly through the lease saw a big cat- remember the long flowing tail more than anything as it ran at modest speed angling right to left. I jumped out of the pickup with a 10/22 and ran where it went in time to hear a yelping howl of a dog or coyote getting nailed by it. Before that I showed a buddy paw prints the size of my outstretched hands. I followed those and saw them over print deer tracks. A son of a lease member came back panicked to camp one time years back saying it had walked under his bow stand. Another guy swears he hit it with a 22mag. The only other thing it could have been is a jaguarundi...which supposedly aren't that way - and arent' black either.
At my sisters place near Kerrville -a good bit south, there is an old sheep pen. I was hunting outside it early one day and smelled ...that death smell. Went in to the shed which is mostly open, and in a corner was a dead full grown deer. insides were removed. Doubting a dog did it and dragged it off. I saw where it had been killed outside the entry way. Did not see bot marks on nose or what was left of the ass - and we never hear coyotes out that way. There are foxes but.... told Dad a cat was the only thing that made sense to me.
So, I don't understand TPWD denying cats are in certain counties- and that there are no black ones. Anyone else? Jaguarundi interest me too.
there are lots of mountain lions in TX but there has never been a documented case of a black one in TX or anywhere else for that matter. jaguars have a black color phase but the last one killed here was back in the 50s i believe.
Mountain lions certainly do show up in practically every county west of I-35 at some time or other.The Trans Pecos is filled with them.
Black ones? I've not seen one. However..........
Bobcats can [whether intentional or not,I don't know ] fluff their hair in such a way as to leave only the tips of the hair showing,and they "turn black".I've seen it on two different occasions myself.
Possibly lions can do the same.One ran across the road in front of me just before sunrise thirty-some years ago in Young County and it looked black , or at least dark , under those light conditions.
baldhunter, my brother yrs ago was trapping rodents at the botanical gardens here in CC, for a research project when he was going to TX A&I. he saw a female with 2 cubs in the gardens.
Nearly fifty years ago I saw what I was sure was a black Panther in North Texas. Nobody would ever believe me. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned there are some black cats in Texas. I don't recall what they are called and they are very rare.
I grew up in East Texas, where pretty much every "old timer" seemed to see "black panthers" under every bush. I was in the woods a lot more than most of these people, and never saw a cat bigger than a bobcat - and then only when dogs had one bayed. When I bought my property in Brazoria County I was told there was a "big black cat" in the area. I didn't think much of it, then was told that TPWD biologists had trapped a cougar in the area after getting reports of sightings, and that someone who lived on that road had a big black cat of some kind in a pen (I saw that one) that suspiciously "escaped" after the TPWD personnel visited and informed them they need a permit for it. Don't know what kind of cat it was, and it may still be around.
Yes stxhunter,they are around.I saw one cross the end of Waldron Rd near Barney Davis,one cross Yorktown by the Navy airstrip and one cross Yorktown just east of the Mud Bridge.These sightings were in the mid 90's and around 2004.
Plenty lions. Our Assn. Pres. told me he trapped 63 last year in W. Tx. At the old locker plant in Leakey there was always 2-3 brought in during deer season. I've only seen 2 personally in Erath Co. No trappers I've talked to mentioned blacks. We have skulls and hides for sale at the rendevous regularly.
I grew up in East Texas, where pretty much every "old timer" seemed to see "black panthers" under every bush. I was in the woods a lot more than most of these people, and never saw a cat bigger than a bobcat - and then only when dogs had one bayed. When I bought my property in Brazoria County I was told there was a "big black cat" in the area. I didn't think much of it, then was told that TPWD biologists had trapped a cougar in the area after getting reports of sightings, and that someone who lived on that road had a big black cat of some kind in a pen (I saw that one) that suspiciously "escaped" after the TPWD personnel visited and informed them they need a permit for it. Don't know what kind of cat it was, and it may still be around.
People put a lot of stake in the black coloration as if it makes the animals doubly ferocious. Heard a lot of the same stuff about seeing "black panthers" and "black wolves" from my friends that lived out east of OKC when I was a kid. I've seen bobcats in OK and I've seen pics of mountain lions in OK though I don't know whether they are native, released pets, or transient. I certainly never saw any "wolves".
used to have a deer lease south of Sanderson in the early 80s....rancher let a lion hunter stay in a line shack for free. had a pack of hounds and also ran trap lines.....his little house had a fence around an acre or so, and every one of those fence posts had a lion skull on it. he was just as creepy and weird as that sounds, too.
From the first explorers, trappers, Indian traders, hunters, and the settlement of this country by colonial farmers and stock producers, large predators have been killed and some nearly driven to extinction. Large predators have been hunted, trapped and hounded from much of what was once their territory by man in the Lower 48. Don't you find it curious that in 400 some odd years not one, NOT ONE, black pelt exists? Surely some scientific mention would have been made at some point in history of such a creature? Pretty much everything else on the continent has been documented. And that includes some pretty teeny tiny little organisms, even itsy bitsy micro stuff. How'd they miss a 150 pound black mountain lion in all this research and discovery? They seem to be thick as fleas given all the sightings some folks report on the Internet. Yet not one early drawing, not one mention in credible journals, no early photo's, no recent history trail cam video or photo's, no car/black lion collisions... nuttin', nada...
Jagurundi's can be fairly dark, but they are small and rare, and even more shy than lions.
I thought I saw a black one in northern AZ some years ago; just a glimpse of the body and a long tail. I was told by a big cat sanctuary owner, though, the same - no one has ever documented a black mountain lion. If they do exist, they must be as rare as white buffalo, even though jags and leopards do come in black. Heck, maybe they are escaped, captive black leopards?
Supposedly there are lions on the new deer lease. Guess I'll have to be careful...
Agreed, to an extint. Jaguars aka "Tiger cats" roamed all the way to Louisiana and Oklahoma prior to the turn of the 20th Century. Since the black phase is common in jaguars, it would be logical to assume that some were this color. To think that there are still "black panthers" behind every tree is ignorant.
IMHO its a lighting issue. We've all seen deer that appeared almost black in certain light, to have them move to a different area and realize its just a normal deer...
Plenty of big cats around though. I"ve yet to see one other than a drive home once around 1am in highschool when one crossed the road in a flash, but it may well have been simply a big bobcat, I can't say honestly as it was only a short glimpse.
Agreed, to an extint. Jaguars aka "Tiger cats" roamed all the way to Louisiana and Oklahoma prior to the turn of the 20th Century. Since the black phase is common in jaguars, it would be logical to assume that some were this color. To think that there are still "black panthers" behind every tree is ignorant.
OK, that's what I saw when I was a kid, I was under a tree, late afternoon and it was in full sunlight working along a fence line. I was upwind and the cat was upwind of some cattle in a pasture. I clearly remember that long tail flicking back and forth as it moved along. As soon as it was out of sight I ran like hell to get home. That was in the early fiftys,and I was around 10 or 11 years old
Not black mountian lions as I believe none have ever been ID'd and certified anywhere....but the last one I saw was killed in Newton county which is on the TX/LA border. It was killed by a deer hunter and I went down there with the TXPWD biologist to verify the kill, that would have been in the early to mid 90's.
I wish I could say I have seen more, but I have only seen a adult mountain lion once. A mother with two half grown "kittens". Of course, most of my outdoor time has been spent East of I-35 and on smaller ranches. Heck, I enjoy seeing regular colored bobcats!
We have mountain lions, cougars roam through Ohio. I'm sure they are in a huge state like TX.
When I was young there was one that lived a few years near my home on the Grand River. Indian Point. Pug marks were found all the time with an occasional sighting.
back in the 80s i work for a guy from benavidas tx who raised them. i would pick every road kill rabbit i found to feed them, one time he bought a horse with a broken leg that we fed them.
Big cats. Here in Massachusetts, the Game Wardens said there aren't any Cougar. Yet,they hand out photos of the critters and pictures of foot prints and tell us Hunters"you won't see one but, if you kill one you have to notify the State so they can examine it" Go figure. Everyone knows there's big cats here.
I did see a mountain lion here in east texas and it "looked" black but it was dark and he was crossing the road in the headlights. That was about 10 years ago, also seen one when I was younger while dad was driving. Late evening coming out of cow pastures both times. I don't recall anyone around here saying they are black.
A little over a year ago my daughter was out in the yard with the kids. My grandson called to her when she went to him back by the fence there was a cougar just standing there looking at them from the other side of the nature trail about 40 feet away. This took place about thirty five miles northeast of Dallas. Don't think with the five Great Danes in the yard the Cougar was generating much interest in jumping the fence.
My family has stories of "black panthers" in post civil war Arkansas & region, yet as said, not one documented pelt, photo or dead mountain lion ever turns out to be black. OTOH I have seen a black one: it came to a call on an overcast day in the snow. I'm sure that had I killed it, it would have turned out to be in the normal range of cougar colorations, some of which are quite dark reds or greys. It looked jet black in that light condition.
I have seen several mt. lions in the wild, and the single most noticeable characteristic IME is the tail: big and waving or flowing or doing something. Fabulous animal to see.
Big cats. Here in Massachusetts, the Game Wardens said there aren't any Cougar. Yet,they hand out photos of the critters and pictures of foot prints and tell us Hunters"you won't see one but, if you kill one you have to notify the State so they can examine it" Go figure. Everyone knows there's big cats here.
same thing here. We found tracks twice on our property last winter.
Nearly fifty years ago I saw what I was sure was a black Panther in North Texas. Nobody would ever believe me. It wasn't until a few years ago that I learned there are some black cats in Texas. I don't recall what they are called and they are very rare.
When I was in high school Roy Swann was the outdoor editor of the Corpus Christy Caller and was associated with a Black cat club or society due to the history of such a high number of people in S. Texas who reported seeing large, non-existant black cats in the brush country.
Before that, I was in jr high and followed the RR tracks a few miles east of Beeville one morning with my pellet gun one spring morning.There was a shallow bottom with oaks a few of us kids had killed squirrels in. Before getting there I saw a black cat with a long tail in the edge of a plowed pasture. It appeared the size of a big bobcat.
Many years later out of Refugio, with a summer job as a pusher for JP Johnston and Son oilfield construction and maintenance I was driving a trailer load of trash a few miles out of town to the city dump. The road went through as thick a brush country as exists as it parallels the Mission river. In a low spot a large black cat with a long tail flashed across the road and jumped the fence.
By that time in life I had killed a lot of deer in central, east and south Texas and a few coyotes and bobcats and hogs and javelina hunting on foot and on my own. I figure that kit must have weighed 70-80 lbs.
Those from near Corpus may be interested in researching the club and history of such in the 60's.
We've had lions in Nebraska since the early 70's but until recently the DNR/Game+Parks has denied their overall existence until these so called phantoms starting appearing in Omaha and surrounding residential neighborhoods.Just a matter of time before I capture a pic on one of my game cams,know they're here,have seen their evidence but they seem to be camera shy.
There are Govt trappers in texas paid to trap ML on ranches by the state if they have problem lions. There is no dispute that Texas has lions, the question has been the observance of large black cats. I remember a hunter dropping off my brothers deer lease near Marble Falls due to having seen a couple come and drink at the pond just behind the feeder he observed while 'hunting' from an elevated and enclosed stand/blind. I guess he forgot he had a gun.
The same thing happened on a lease in Polk co. in east Texas. this time the cat was supposedly black Nd the guy almost had a heart attack.
I guess they never consider what a good lion hunt costs and how lucky they are. I also suppose the fact they didn't shoot is a testament to their shooting ability.
I know a guy in west Texas raised in SE NM who was watching a water hole for deer there one pm and he drilled a ML with his bow as it drank. 45 min later he drilled another.
I think the possibility of a large black cat existing in the States is small. But there's a chance. There's also the chance of mis-identification. And there's a chance it's a species we haven't documented yet or thought was extinct.
There were no breeding populations of jaguars in the U.S., until they found them. And Ca fish and game says there are no wolves in Ca. But I've seen them. And there are pics of them. They also say there are no brown bears here. Yet they couldn't explain the pics of two of them. Of course, they also failed to recognize their "failed" program to re-introduce both brown bears and wolves.
I think the possibility of a large black cat existing in the States is small. But there's a chance. There's also the chance of mis-identification. And there's a chance it's a species we haven't documented yet or thought was extinct.
There were no breeding populations of jaguars in the U.S., until they found them. And Ca fish and game says there are no wolves in Ca. But I've seen them. And there are pics of them. They also say there are no brown bears here. Yet they couldn't explain the pics of two of them. Of course, they also failed to recognize their "failed" program to re-introduce both brown bears and wolves.
Not much escapes a game camera in the south nowdays with a game camera for every 10 acres or so it seems. I have run long term population studies on deer with a camera for every 10 acres and haven't found one yet but I have gotten mountain lions on camera exactly twice. Once a tail as it walked by and another of one covering a deer kill.
I saw one back in October/2001 in Fannin County (North Texas along the Red River) one morning when I was cruising down some back roads with binoculars, I turned around at the end of a one-lane track in some bottom-land and saw it cross the road about 50 yards away. I mentioned it to one of the U.S. Forest service technicians that I knew and he didn't doubt it because he saw a tri-colored one near his house, in fact he said I was not the first to see one in the area.
I think the possibility of a large black cat existing in the States is small. But there's a chance. There's also the chance of mis-identification. And there's a chance it's a species we haven't documented yet or thought was extinct.
There were no breeding populations of jaguars in the U.S., until they found them. And Ca fish and game says there are no wolves in Ca. But I've seen them. And there are pics of them. They also say there are no brown bears here. Yet they couldn't explain the pics of two of them. Of course, they also failed to recognize their "failed" program to re-introduce both brown bears and wolves.
Not much escapes a game camera in the south nowdays with a game camera for every 10 acres or so it seems. I have run long term population studies on deer with a camera for every 10 acres and haven't found one yet but I have gotten mountain lions on camera exactly twice. Once a tail as it walked by and another of one covering a deer kill.
I disagree. MUCH escapes a game camera. You said so yourself that you've done long term studies and only captured mountain lions twice. Not saying there's anything wrong with how you're doing it. Just saying that I think we as humans have come to rely too heavily on electronic devices and assume we'd know everything there is to know about our world around us. We also listen (maybe not those on this board) to much to the so called "authorities" when it comes to these matters.
There have been numerous discoveries of new species in the last couple decades. And I'm not talking about microscopic crap on the sea floor. Talking about large animals. Not only new species, but finding known species in areas we thought they were eradicated from.
We just don't know everything. And I suspect, things are much different than what we perceive.
Yes I have only caught mountain lions twice but mountain lions in East, TX are pretty darn rare and I'm only one person. TXPWD has only a record of a handful being killed (they are open season in TX) in the last few decades in this part of the world and upland pineywoods aren't exactly great mountain lion habitat. In that time I have gotten several bears which aren't even officially a species found in East, TX.
Most of the study areas are large tracts (for around here anyway) of 10,000 acres or more because we were tagging sites for possible bear reintroduction (cooming soon).
Upshur, Red river, San Augustine, Shelby (also got a mountain lion here covering a deer kill) and Newton County.
I'm about 110% certain all of them were young males that came out of Arkansas.
East, TX is still in the exploraty stage for a black bear reintroduction program. Right now if you hang around public land in East, TX you'll start seeing the signs informing hunters/hikers about the possibility of bears and not to confuse them with a hog (I know funny, but hog hunting with dogs is popular and people shoot at the brush a lot).
If I had to bet the big thicket would probably get picked first with boggy slough being second as a release site.
35 years ago while fishing on piney creek in polk co. I saw a tree with the lower bark stripped with claw marks and I could think of nothing else doing it.
About 12 years ago one showed up at Crane Texas, and that is desert country.
I have a rancher pt. that has seen one on his place just north of Big Bend.
I grew up hearing stories from my dad and grandad about lion sightings here in Bastrop county.
Back, I'm guessing in the 70s, they had the place leased to a deer hunter. He was sitting in a stand watching a good sized field when two of then walked out. He shot and wounded one and they both ran off. My dad had some cow dogs at the time and put them on the trail but they never were able to find the wounded cat.
A story my grandpaw told happened one night when him and several buddies were coon hunting. They were walking along in the dark with no flashlights when a big cat jumped out of the tree they had just walked under and ran away in the dark. He said it scared one of them so bad that he sat down and started crying.
In the winter of 2009 I had my own sighting. It was probably 10 o'clock at night and I was driving my four wheeler down a back ranch road spotlighting for varmints. I see what at first I think is a coyote moving through some tall weeds, but something is strange about it. It is not trotting like a coyote, it is slinking like a cat. I stop the atv and start lip squeaking trying to make it stop but it doesn't. It moves behind a tree so I drive a little closer to get a clear view around the tree. There about 80 yards away in an opening, sitting down looking at me, is a sure enough mountain lion. I can distinctly remember seeing it's dark face markings. I drew down on it, put the cross hairs right on its shoulder and fired. At the shot it jumped strait up in the air several feet, kicked its back legs out like a deer would and disappeared. Unbeknownst to me at the time my .223's scope was knocked off and was shooting several inches too high. I know I hit him but am sure it was a grazing shot. I never found a blood trail and about 15 minutes after the shot it started to rain vary hard. I came back the next day and searched but it was no use.
one was killed in duval county 10 yrs ago, guy got fined big time.
Why was he fined?
I saw a Big Tom brown in color three years ago in Live Oak County near Choke Canyon on the way into the deer lease. I had the sons with me but not a camera other than the cell phone. I told the sons that they were seeing something they may never see again in Texas. I had never previously saw anything other than bobcats before. We may have seen a jaguarrundi as well, at least we think that is what it is because it was very dark in color with a tail about bobcat in size. Two different areas same lease on different weekends so maybe or maybe not the same one.
pira114 I have seen one wolf personaly, hunting partner two, in Tulare County, Kings Canyon basin. Fish and game won't admit it publicly. A sow brown bear has been spotted above California Hot Springs in the Portugese Pass area with cubs. As to the big cats, We saw a very dark cat on a hillside one evening coming home, but it could be as others have said with the lighting, fifteen to twenty minutes before sundown? I do know there are animals out there that "officials" denie.
pira114 I have seen one wolf personaly, hunting partner two, in Tulare County, Kings Canyon basin. Fish and game won't admit it publicly. A sow brown bear has been spotted above California Hot Springs in the Portugese Pass area with cubs. As to the big cats, We saw a very dark cat on a hillside one evening coming home, but it could be as others have said with the lighting, fifteen to twenty minutes before sundown? I do know there are animals out there that "officials" denie.
I'm in Tuolumne county. For a while, they were trying to reintroduce brown bear into parts of this county. Right behind Yosemite. Don't for the life of me know why. Anyway, they claim none of it worked and stopped trying. Now they are trying hard NOT to answer questions about why people are starting to see brown bears in the high sierras. Same thing with wolves. I see their tracks very infrequently at around 7000 ft or better. Never lower, but then I ain't looking lower.
Speaking of which, it's that time of year. The black bears are getting adventurous in the quest for dinner. Starting to see sign around the house.
As for black cats, I've been reading a lot since this thread started. I wonder if mt. lions can have a recessive black fur trait??? Aside from mis-identifying the color at dawn or dusk, I think that could be a plausible explanation as to why they're seen occasionally, but not captured or killed.
I know how the shadow affect can make a deer look very black and the same thing happens with many mountain lion sightings,but some of those sighting can very well be jaguars.Years ago they roamed Texas,in fact,years ago South Texas was not the brush country it is today,it was open prairie.With the whitetail and hog populations we have today,they certainly would find the habitat better than ever.One cat I saw looked black,not just black,but shiny black and the head was big.I never claimed I saw a jaguar,but in my mind,I'm not going to rule it out either.Here are a few of links about jaguars in Texas.
Our ranch in N. Texas is on the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River. My Dad, a Rancher of over 60 years has seen 3 mountain lions, all tan, in his lifetime. I saw my first mountain lion last year here on our ranch, & I'm 53. I was bowhunting & had 3 does under my stand. They got real nervous acting, & I figured surely a big buck was coming in.... The biggest doe snorted, & they all 3 hauled ass. I look up & a female cat stalked in about 20 yards from my blind. She probably weighed about 100lbs. No, I didn't shoot her. Probably should have. But it sure was fun watching her stalk by. She never made a sound & neither did I. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to see her again this deer season.
Back in '87 or thereabouts a friend saw one cross the narrow dirt road leading to the property I was living on at the time. This was just south of College Station in Brazos County, in a location now gone under to suburban development.
Here in San Antonio, lions have been present for as long as I can remember on Camp Bullis, a 28,000 acre Military training area in the northern part of Bexar County, now pretty much surrounded by upscale housing developments, presence documented in the form of deer kills found and sightings.
Within the city limits is a park on the far north side of town, there is a three mile loop trail over rough terrain that I often take my dogs walking at night. In the last ten years I have heard what I preseumed were lions there twice.
Once a deep throaty cat growl perhaps twenty yards away up a hillside in thick cedar, repeated a few minute later further off along the slope. Went in the next day to find a sapling Spanish oak torn out of the ground, bark ripped by claws, leaf litter all disturbed and a strong odor of cat.
Same park, just two years back, a deer bleating and sound of a scuffle in the cedar maybe fifty or sixty yards off, the bleating suddenly cut off. The very next day the park was closed for perhaps ten days as a result of a mountain lion sighting.
Both times my two heelers were alert and listening, but did not bark or attempt to chase, I often have 'em out in the woods or brush and they know not to respond to critters we run into unless I tell 'em its OK.
pira114 I have seen one wolf personaly, hunting partner two, in Tulare County, Kings Canyon basin. Fish and game won't admit it publicly. A sow brown bear has been spotted above California Hot Springs in the Portugese Pass area with cubs. As to the big cats, We saw a very dark cat on a hillside one evening coming home, but it could be as others have said with the lighting, fifteen to twenty minutes before sundown? I do know there are animals out there that "officials" denie.
The fact that they deny what people know to be there sure undercuts the trust one can put in them, doesn't it.
Never understood that. Just dumb.
There's been enough reports for so many years of "black panthers" without a carcass to prove it that IMO there are only 2 possible explanations. Jaguar or lighting that makes a regular ML look black.
No jag's up here but always the occasional report of black cougar sighting. A cousin of mine farms/ranches not far from here and witnessed a pair 3 days in a row that he says looked black. He watched for a couple minutes each time and one sighting for several minutes. All near sundown and all from his barn looking west into the pasture near wooded bottom about 400 yards away. He watched as they cross a fence one evening, which gave a good estimation of the size. Definitely lions. Appear black because of the angle of the lighting.
Originally Posted by calikooknic
As for black cats, I've been reading a lot since this thread started. I wonder if mt. lions can have a recessive black fur trait??? Aside from mis-identifying the color at dawn or dusk, I think that could be a plausible explanation as to why they're seen occasionally, but not captured or killed.
This would most probably be a form of melanism. Unlike albinism, as far as I know, it's a dominant trait. If that's the case the frequency should be like solid black jaguars, 1/3 or even fully 1/2 the population. It's got to be the lighting.
The fact that they deny what people know to be there sure undercuts the trust one can put in them, doesn't it.
Never understood that. Just dumb.
They also continue to deny the existence of Big Foot too.
Quote
This would most probably be a form of melanism. Unlike albinism, as far as I know, it's a dominant trait. If that's the case the frequency should be like solid black jaguars, 1/3 or even fully 1/2 the population. It's got to be the lighting.
Reread your pop-gen books, you are missing a little detail or three.
Last year my cousin called me to look at a set of lion tracks near his house south of Gainesville Tx. When I saw them I told him yes it was a nice set of tracks but it had five toes and a good 7 inches across. He couldn't belive a bear had gotten that close to the house. I see lions at least once a year but no bears yet. I wouldn't mind a few bear if they would munch on those damn hogs.
They also continue to deny the existence of Big Foot too.
And won't they feel silly when I drag in a dead squatch!
Yes, indeedy. And until then, expect them to keep their secret squatch introductions and plans to destroy America by turning the country over to muslim Squatches a secret. Just listen for the black helicopters - they are out there.
I keep thinking a big jag could live pretty well off hogs, if they ever get established in Texas, and start breeding. Last I heard, though, it was only the occasional roaming male that ever made it into the States.
In the deep jungle, a black jag would still be well camo'd, and he'd have no disadvantage in stalking prey. In the desert or semi-desert I would have to think a black cat would be at a disadvantage, and natural selection would limit their numbers. Mutations do happen, heck white buffalo show up every now and then, but I can see why it would be extremely rare.
They also continue to deny the existence of Big Foot Yes, indeedy. And until then, expect them to keep their secret squatch introductions and plans to destroy America by turning the country over to muslim Squatches a secret. Just listen for the black helicopters-they are out there.
[/quote] Muzzy squatch black opps. To hell with my coffee, I need foil!
There are a few otters in my area (upper Texas coast) and as I watched one crossing a road one morning I was thinking that if someone wasn't sure of the distance, they might easily mistake it for a cat, possibly a big one?
As to the bears, the Black Bear Recovery Committee has helped get enough bears started again in Louisiana that they may be considering a season soon. Many of these cross into East Texas, and there is also a population in Oklahoma. A friend of mine is director of that program, and I asked him awhile back if he thought bears would kill and eat hogs, because I had heard that the parishes in Louisiana with a bear population had few hogs. He told me he'd personally bet on a big hog in such an encounter. He said bears are not big meat eaters anyway, and the parishes with bears and no hogs are just parishes the hogs haven't moved into - YET.
He also feels Florida may have a bear season in the near future.
one of my buddy's 5 month old cougar cubs jumped on my back when i was putting carpet in his house. it knocked me flat, plus they hadn't been declawed yet, good thing it was just playing, hate to think what a grown one could do.
I doubt bears would have an appreciable impact on hog populations. Except that they probably would be competing for some of the same food sources. Now lions on the other hand.....
We used to check the stomachs of every lion we killed during hunts down here. I honestly cannot remember one that didn't contain hog hair. Without digging out the hunting log, that's probably 25-30 lions over a ten-year period.
A W. Tx. lion trapper I know caught a bear out by Alpine 3yrs. ago. Although a black bear, he called it Cinnamon. He has been trapping out there for years. He said he really didn't know what he was supposed to do because everybody knows there ain't any bears out there. He didn't want to get cross-ways with the Game Warden. He's by himself as usual. He has plenty rope in the truck and gets the bear all splayed out and tied off, so he can get the trap off and lets it go. He says he doesn't want to do that again. The GW said he should have called and he would have helped. Phone service is iffy to none. I still don't know what the law is on trapping bear in W.Tx.
As long as I've been a cop, I still get nervous around Game Wardens.
No [bleep]. I can never get used to the fact that they will chase you around the world in your boat, to make sure you have a whistle, cite you for not having a life jacket while floating in an innertube, or search your person to make sure you don't have lead shot while hunting waterfowl.
I've seen a black panther in Georgia almost 40 years ago, 1973. Crossed in front of me on a fairly new stretch of Interstate 95 running thru the Ogeechee River swamp between Savannah, and Richmond Hill/Ft. Stewart.
A bit taller than my bumper, long, slanky, long tail, jet black.
I've got a whole long story about a set of seized antlers that I finally got back after explaining search and seizure to a game warden captain for about an hour on the phone. If you want an example of absolute power corrupting absolutely, I can introduce you to a couple or three game wardens in north Texas.
But I digress, back to the topic at hand....You know I swear that I saw a black bear track in Broaddus about 18 years ago.
There's been black bears seen in West Texas on occasion. I think one was hit on I-10 a few years ago. In the Chisos mountains of Big Bend, they used to have a bunch of warning signs for the bears.
I'm glad someone from GA spoke up. Any Game and Fish person in GA will tell you that there are no Panthers in GA. Panthers are the GA name for mountain lions.
But, my wife and I were together when a large one ran out in the road, turned away from us and ran straight away for about 100 feet, the went into the bushes on the opposite side of the road.
It came out t of thick woods and ran down a long, steep bank, before it got to the road.
I stopped, and looked at the tracks. GA game and fish has wanted proof, in the form of a picture of tracks. These would have been good proof if I had a camera with me.
This was in N. GA, not too far from North Carolina, and it was definitely black, or at least very dark, not the tawny color seen in pictures.
Bears live in the Chisos, Davis and Guadalupe Mountains, for sure. Very likely occur in smaller adjacent ranges such as the North Rosillos and Delaware Mountains, as well. The Del Carmens in Mexico across from Big Bend NP have good populations, too.
I saw a black bear a few years back in E. Texas. I was driving across a bayou on Caddo Lake on the TX / Lousianna border. Stopped the truck to get a better look, to make sure I wasn't hallucinating. Yep, it was a black bear all right. Just wished I had a camera handy.
If you want to see a Mountain Lion, just go hunting & leave your camera at home!
This would most probably be a form of melanism. Unlike albinism, as far as I know, it's a dominant trait. If that's the case the frequency should be like solid black jaguars, 1/3 or even fully 1/2 the population. It's got to be the lighting.
Reread your pop-gen books, you are missing a little detail or three.
I don't doubt that. Hence the "AFAIK". What little I know about albinism, leucism, anerythrism, etc is from breeding pythons, boas, colubrids, and crotalids. New mutations never show up in the next generation. Both parent animals must carry the genetic defect before offspring show it (on the outside).
Recommend me a good book or three on the topic, I'm all ears.
Nebraska denied the presence of lions for years, decades even, no matter how many reports came in or from whom.
It wasn't until a guy with game and parks commission hunting near Basset stumbled across one near his hunting spot covering a deer carcass with leaves and sticks. He set up his trail cam and went to hunt elsewhere. He posted it all in Nebraskaland Magazine and that finally heralded the end of their ridiculous persistent denial.
A fellow that I know has property down by The Page area. He said he saw one while sitting in his deer blind last year.
North Dakota was the same way, denial. The Duck Deputies, Muskrat Marshals or what ever you want to call them got pissed when a guy would ask them about it. Then all of the sudden there was a season.
having read this whole thread, i find everyone comments intresting, i live on a large ranch in south tex. and seeing lion is not rare, we find lion kills once or twice a month,and see a lion at least every couple of months,they do kill hogs and deer, we dont shoot them here as i like having them on the ranch, its great fun to see them now and then and they really dont do any imporant damage to anything.in all my years as a rancher i have never seen a black lion. rio7
This would most probably be a form of melanism. Unlike albinism, as far as I know, it's a dominant trait. If that's the case the frequency should be like solid black jaguars, 1/3 or even fully 1/2 the population. It's got to be the lighting.
Reread your pop-gen books, you are missing a little detail or three.
I don't doubt that. Hence the "AFAIK". What little I know about albinism, leucism, anerythrism, etc is from breeding pythons, boas, colubrids, and crotalids. New mutations never show up in the next generation. Both parent animals must carry the genetic defect before offspring show it (on the outside).
Recommend me a good book or three on the topic, I'm all ears.
having read this whole thread, i find everyone comments intresting, i live on a large ranch in south tex. and seeing lion is not rare, we find lion kills once or twice a month,and see a lion at least every couple of months,they do kill hogs and deer, we dont shoot them here as i like having them on the ranch, its great fun to see them now and then and they really dont do any imporant damage to anything.in all my years as a rancher i have never seen a black lion. rio7
They will totally decimate your annual fawn crop! We don't shoot them either, on our ranch. But they will affect your deer herd population, eventually. Fawns are much easier prey than baby piglets.
about 4 years ago, I had a group of hunters that were hunting our place in Pecos for the first time. One of them strapped a trial camera to a yucca and left it up one night. He had this picture on it the next morning. That was the best advertisement I could hope for. They've been back every year since. (The photo was sent to me as a PDF, so I took a photo of the pdf so I could save it to photobucket.)
I hope to kill a lion out there some day, but it hasn't happend yet.
I used to have a bunch of hunters who claimed they were seeing packs of Hyenas.......................
Okay.
Alan
Well to be fair you never know in TX. I once hd to stop for a cape buffalo in the road in the hill country and had to assist TXPWD with a Tiger hunt once as well.
Yup. The last lease near Sonora had at least a few Axis & Blackbuck on it, and had never been stocked. The new one is near Junction, so I'm curious as to what might shop up, besides the obvious deer & hogs
Someone posted a story on the fire a few years ago, where he was working on his Texas lease, looked up and saw a bison charging them. IIRC the guy had a .300 mag handy, and emptied it to stop the shaggy beast. I forget the member's name, however.
The landowner on my deer lease said he'd be thrilled if we shot a lion. I'm looking for a 400mm lens, myself
Yep. I'll be packing my big professional grade Nikon SLR & a Nikon 400mm lens In my bow blind this year. I'd much rather get a photo than shoot one. I don't think I would ever shoot a mountain lion on our ranch unless it was a self defense type situation.
Fortunatly, they only like to eat joggers & tree huggers out in California. ;-) The female that walked right by me in my bow blind last year paid no attention to me whatsoever. She had her nose to the ground & was Definately stalking deer.
BTW, my Dad had a HUGE Red Stag walk right by him while he was in a big ole John Deere tractor planting cotton last year. I couldn't ever get a shot at it, myself. Free ranging exotics are fair game in Texas. Anyhow, this Red Stag committed Hary/Cary on our neighbors ranch by trying to attack its reflection in a huge plate glass window. Probably scored 325 easy... I keep hoping some Bison on a Ranch up the Brazos River from our ranch will "escape" I sure would like to stick an arrow in a big ole Buffalo with my Recurve..... Or dig my old Hawken .54 out of the safe....
I hear ya. I'm getting too damn old to try & out run a Bison Bull in my Tony Lamas. And my Hawken wouldn't make a very good club after firing your one and Only bullet...
I've been freight-trained a time or two by one of our big Angus bulls while working cattle in our corrals. Our bulls with a nasty disposition usually end up becoming hamburger steak.
BTW, You just have to be able to make a quick 90 degree turn to out smart cattle. I hear that the big ole Bison bulls are considerably smarter.
Over the last two decades, there has been a dramatic rise in large cat sightings on the urban fringes of numerous Western cities. We continue to be fascinated with the grace and power of these magnificent creatures as our communities grow, outdoor recreation becomes more popular, and we move closer to mountain lion habitat. Mountain Lion!, opening at the Museum of Northern Arizona in Flagstaff on Saturday, September 15, 2012 through Sunday, August 4, 2013, seeks to create an understanding of the nature of these predators and their long history of relations with humans.
Known by many names�mountain lion, cougar, puma, panther, ghost cat, and catamount, depending on the region�these cats are solitary hunters at the top of the food chain, who rely on their camouflage, superb eyesight, and speed to survive. Mountain lions often travel 25�30 miles a day in search of a meal, with the greatest range of any large wild terrestrial mammal in the Western Hemisphere.
Today, cougars are among the largest meat-eating animals in North America. Like other predators, they play a critical role in the balance of nature and contribute to biological diversity and a healthy environment.
Mountain Lion! examines the history of these large cats, starting in the Ice Age, when they roamed this continent along with the giant North American Lion and Smilodon, popularly known as saber-tooth tigers.
Hunting techniques, habits, and physical features which have allowed them to survive for thousands of years are explored, along with differing cultural perspectives towards cougars, and changing opinions. This exhibit also delves into how to read cougar behavior and practical tips on what to do if you encounter a mountain lion in the wild.
Mountain Lion! was developed by the Center of Southwest Studies at Fort Lewis College in Durango, Colorado, in partnership with the Colorado Division of Wildlife, to address the need for greater public awareness. The Museum of Northern Arizona is able to host the exhibit with support from Arizona Commission on the Arts, BBB Revenues from the City of Flagstaff, and Flagstaff Cultural Partners.
They like to eat the biggest buck on the place, which is what I want. I heard m. lion tenderloin is pretty good. One could sure make my day. .
They're completely unchecked in Ca. And as such, have had a detrimental effect on deer populations.
Also end up in some fairly urban areas. Look at a satelite map of Palo Alto, Ca and tell me if it looks like it'd be thick with lions. But it is. 4 or 5 have been tranq'ed or killed in the last few years there. Healthy ones typically over 2 years old. Just spreading their wings. Their territory is getting too full of lions for their own good.
I read alot about the Mountain Men and old trappers. When they would enumerate their favorite meats, Mountain Lion is always close to the top. I haven't tried it yet.
having read this whole thread, i find everyone comments intresting, i live on a large ranch in south tex. and seeing lion is not rare, we find lion kills once or twice a month,and see a lion at least every couple of months,they do kill hogs and deer, we dont shoot them here as i like having them on the ranch, its great fun to see them now and then and they really dont do any imporant damage to anything.in all my years as a rancher i have never seen a black lion. rio7
They will totally decimate your annual fawn crop! We don't shoot them either, on our ranch. But they will affect your deer herd population, eventually. Fawns are much easier prey than baby piglets.
No hogs here, except captive of course. I've seen lots of bobcat, definitely fair game when opportunity presents itself, but I'd let a lion walk, too, in most cases.
I'd much rather have the occasional lion cruise through than wolves. They'll get whatever I have handy.... even if it means chase across the field with the truck to run 'em down.
i know a guy who killed a eland on his lease, they had no idea where it came from.
A teacher aquaintance had a zebra stallion show up on their ranch outside of Comfort, no ear tags or other sign of ownership, nobody was missing a zebra. Eventually they shot it on account of it was attacking their calves, made a nice rug IIRC, I forget if they ate it or not. .
And over the years I've seen nilgai, scimitar-horned oxynx, blackbuck, and fallow, axis and sika deer running along Texas roadways.
I dunno if them fancy hair sheep (Corsican?) count
Sounds like very well trained dogs there Birdy. Usually they're wanting out of the area, yesterday.
My heelers? More like blissful ignorance on their part I dunno if a lion smell is substantively different from a regular cat to a dog that has never run into one.
The one dog especially sticks unusually close when danger is possible, so much so that when she starts dogging my footsteps while looking off into the brush I know that SOMETHING sizeable is out there, usually hogs, sometimes a trailing coyote.
Smart move on her part, I'm the one with all the firepower
I killed a nilgai on a friends ranch that's about nine miles out of Hunt on the way to Leakey. He had never seen one around before and hasn't seen one since. That was in 1995.
The lion trappers out in W.Texas had incredible(to me) numbers of lions taken this last year. The one guy has access to 100s of thousands of acres out at Alpine, Marfa, Ft.Stockton, etc.. Over the years he has accounted for hundreds of lions. Zero blacks. He gave me 3 skulls I'm cleaning right now. I've seen lions once in Erath Co., once in Real Co. and one in Williamson Co. They are out there.
I have seen one jaguarundi at a big cat sanctuary. They are darker in color than a typical lion, but are much smaller. Funny looking critters too, almost like a weasel.
I would not be surprised if at one time or another, someone's leopard got loose and started living in Texas. Between deer, pigs, and turkeys they should make a good living, especially given their stealth and adaptability.
IIRC at one time there was a handful of ocelots in far South Texas, but their numbers have been greatly reduced. I don't know if they ever had a black color phase, or if any still exist.
I don't know what it is about the South and people seeing "black panthers". I can't count how many people I've met who has "seen" one, even though there is no such thing on this side of he planet. A Mountain Lion's tail can be black at times, so I just wonder if that's all they see is the tail. Or if they only see the mountain lion at night and just assume since they can only see the eyes, the cat is black. Even when you present them with the FACT that there are no leopards in the Western Hemisphere, they still won't believe it.
Now with that said, the South does seem to have a thing for exotic cats, so I'm sure at some point someone has turned loose a Leopard that was a pet and someone saw that. That happened not too far from my house in Arkansas with a full grown Tiger.
one of my buddy's kept telling about a black lion he was seeing while in his blind, i hunted his blind and sure enough a big ol black house cat crossed the sendero about a 100 yds away.
There are as many black mountain lions as there are bigfoots and chupacabras.
Don't you reckon with all the game cameras, and folks with guns out there, that in a hundred years of hunting and photos that there would be one shot, or a credible picture of just ONE by now?
Lots of money to be made in the myth business though...
I've seen Mountain Lion tracks in Brewster county between Del Rio and Alpine. Also seen them a few miles south of Iraan, TX.
I have never seen a wild mountain lion of any color. But it seems reasonable there could be some black ones.
Two of my friends drove into deer camp one night saying they had seen a black panther, but no one else believed them because they had been drinking and they had only a wire hanging out of the truck door where they had drug off their radar detector.
I have seen one mountain lion hit by a car whilst hunting the Hill Country, walked up on one too. I don't know which of us was more startled. I have seen two Coatimundi. Saw a Black Bear outside of Alto in 1998.
Although, that buck of a lifetime has somehow eluded me.
I've seen Mountain Lion tracks in Brewster county between Del Rio and Alpine. Also seen them a few miles south of Iraan, TX.
I have never seen a wild mountain lion of any color. But it seems reasonable there could be some black ones.
Two of my friends drove into deer camp one night saying they had seen a black panther, but no one else believed them because they had been drinking and they had only a wire hanging out of the truck door where they had drug off their radar detector.
Lotsa stories like this one.
Everyone knows someone that claims to have seen a big black cat.
Not one shred of proof of it ever though... Not one dead one, not one credible photo, not one shot or run over. Ever.
it could happen (black jag) in southern Arizona/New Mexico or south TX, but you'd have better odds of winning the lotto.
Never personally seen one and don't believe in the black cat theory either. There was a mountain lion killed in East, TX maybe 15 years ago just outside of Jasper which is near the Lousiana border.
While working in South, TX I did see a Jaguar mounted on a fireplace hearth that supposidly was killed on the ranch. Perhaps a 100 or more years ago.
Okay so I just looked it up and apparently there are some black Jaguars but they�re not very common. So considering that I was in northern Arkansas and Jag�s in the South are pretty rare to begin with, and are usually in the extreme South, then add in the fact that a black Jag is an uncommon item, I�m sticking with the story that these people are seeing things.
Jaguars definitely do come in black - in South American jungles, where their color is no disadvantage. But in open desert, it would be a disadvantage...so I doubt any of the black ones have ever made a living in the Southwest, and were Darwinated.
As Rockin noted; ones chance of seeing a normal spotted jaguar, which rarely show up along the Mexican border with Arizona, in fact only two or three in the last 30 odd years. The chances diminish exponentially as you move north, away from the Mexican border. The melanistic phase, only occurs in about 6% of an all ready small population which live in a specific area of central America. The odds of seeing one of those, even smack on the border with Mexico, would be astromonical, considering the very small chance of seeing a normal spotted variety. Imagine the realistic odds of seeing a black one in Alabama, where everybody has a third cousins brother who swears his grand daddy saw one, but his rifle misfired, or he didn't have a camera or any other witness......the story line is generally the same in all the sightings. Ive been fortunate to see my fair share of Mt. Lions, while either calling predators or just out hunting and tramping around the desert, twice seeing pairs, with the rest singles. Depending on the time of day, a lions coat can "appear" to be very dark, when in late evening and low light. Put him in the shadows while light is getting dim, and it might just look like it's black...I suspect this is the real reason for the black lion sightings?
There's been enough reports for so many years of "black panthers" without a carcass to prove it that IMO there are only 2 possible explanations.
Actually there are 2 more explanations for black panther sightings, and neither of them are flattering. apparently, the entire northern hemisphere is nearly overrun with them.
We had a lady at who claimed she saw a hyena in her pasture. We laughed like hell. The next day she came into work with photos of her pasture and I'll be damned if there wasn't a hyena in that picture. Which means that someone had one as a pet...WTF????
One of my favorite old time Texas pics. The Tompkins jaguar killed in Mills county Texas, 1903. About 100 or so miles northwest of Austin.
Bob, I've seen that photo somewhere before. Seems if my memory is correct, it was some where around Goldwaite ???
I enjoyed our visit at McBride's yesterday. It was nice to finally get to meet you. I hope my nephew doesn't come by and bug you too often. He's a good kid, and really likes to talk, if you haven't noticed already.
My older sister lives in San Angelo and she swears she saw a black panther while walking on the SW edge of town. She truly believes she saw one and believes there is an animal species separate from the mountain lion called "Black Panther". She is a very intelligent person and truly believes she saw one. I keep my mouth shut because she is one of those people that it is very unpleasant to disagree with.
Ok, I'm out in my man cave project tonight watching a nice slop cocktail pile out the window, waiting for this herd of hogs that have been terrorizing the place to make an appearance, when I spot this coming out of the brush!!!
I believe it's the rare Pygmy variety of black panther. Also known around the place as Bageera. One of the farm cats!!!
No pigs yet. But I'm confident! They rooted up the bottom last night.
March 03,2018 (+/-) 2300 hrs Saturday night. Saw one that had been hit by a vehicle on side of road. It was maybe 40-60 pounds with a 3-3 1/2 foot black thick tail. Could not pull over in time due to traffic. Beautiful shiny black coat. It was on Hwy 77 past Victoria just 2-3 miles past the Exxon gas station on hill. I was headed to Corpus Christi looking for FM 239 to come in the back way on Hwy 35. Wish I had made U-turn now.
March 03,2018 (+/-) 2300 hrs Saturday night. Saw one that had been hit by a vehicle on side of road. It was maybe 40-60 pounds with a 3-3 1/2 foot black thick tail. Could not pull over in time due to traffic. Beautiful shiny black coat. It was on Hwy 77 past Victoria just 2-3 miles past the Exxon gas station on hill. I was headed to Corpus Christi looking for FM 239 to come in the back way on Hwy 35. Wish I had made U-turn now.
Should have told me sooner, as I'm not far from there. It'd be a tad ripe, right now though...
Yeah, there's lions here. Saw some recent tracks in mad from recent rains.
Not much escapes a game camera in the south nowdays with a game camera for every 10 acres or so it seems.
I have had a couple of game cameras out for several years and have yet to get a picture of a bobcat or fox. Everything else, including a coyote and possum eating rice bran at the same time. I have seen both bobcat and fox several time while hunting, just not on any of my cameras. miles
We had a lady at who claimed she saw a hyena in her pasture. We laughed like hell. The next day she came into work with photos of her pasture and I'll be damned if there wasn't a hyena in that picture. Which means that someone had one as a pet...WTF????
A friend and myself followed a man moving some farm equipment, and brought Him back to His truck one time in the mid 1980's in Central Arkansas, and something ran across the road. We all thought that it looked like a hyena. Not a long look, but all thought the same thing. It was not over 75 yards form us. miles
You do not want any evidence to suggest those cats are there. As soon as there is proof, everything changes and lands you would have had access to will get locked up by the greenie trash and their feral court co-conspirators.
Well, We live about 45miles east of Dallas. 7 or 8 yrs ago my Son and family were visiting. I went to bed and all 6 of them plus my Wife were watching a movie. I was sleeping. One of my Grandsons yelled,"Oh $hit,A mountain lion is on the back porch". We have a 8' veranda that runs the length of the back of the house. All of them got a look and called the sheriff's dept. They came out in a G'Damn Swat Vehicle. What a circus! All had their vest and ARs.Of course the animal was gone. TP&W had a biologist come out the next day. He photoed the prints and said it was a big cat. He also said that we would probably not see it again. We haven't.
I can't say I"ve seen a black one. Though one at night was VERY dark.
That said who hasn't seen a deer almost black in color depending on how they hold their hair and the lighting, sun angle etc...
Cats though, over all, are around, I"d doubt there would be any single county in TX that doesn't have one, excepting possibly counties that are almost totally large urban jungles.
Here is one caught about 2 wks ago in an area where we fish along the Rio Grande in Laredo. Its actually a neighborhood. Have seen a couple when I was younger ,lots of tracks and dead deer and calves . Lucio
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I don't recall anyone around here saying they are black.
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