taking, let's say, Oklahoma and Kansas with it. Maybe Louisiana too. If they were to secede after the election, what do y'all think would happen? I mean, lets say the impetus was simple math...the economy. Let's say these three or four states simply said they couldn't continue to do things economically, the way the Feds wanted to and also they didn't agree with the way things were going socially, let's say with the disregard to our borders and the constant clamor for gun control despite the Constitution, Supreme Court rulings and common sense. What would the Feds do about it? I mean, if the msm is truly enough in the pocket of the big boys, I'm sure something could be drummed up...Obama voters being kept down, racism, whatever. But seriously, there aren't any slaves now to free. How could it be spun? The world knows the United States claims to be free. How can a country claiming to be such prevent states that freely entered a union from freely leaving, when there is nobody to "protect"?
I would move there if they would have me.
If that were to happen I could see the new republic or whatever forming an L shaped country because I would imagine several of the western states would join.
The reasoning behind any federal intervention would be simple enough, theft by those states wishing to leave the union. The Fed would claim those states still hold assets belonging to the fed and would send in either US troops or the UN to retrieve their assets and take back control of the union.
would be like a bad breakup. we could just leave their schit in the yard for them to come get lol
would be like a bad breakup. we could just leave their schit in the yard for them to come get lol
They wouldn't need to prove you weren't going to give it back, they'd just send in troops to get it and in the process try to bring those states back into line.
I would move there if they would have me.
as would I, especially if OK were involved. My years in Bartlesville and Tulsa were great, and the people there about as friendly as you'll find anywhere.
IF that ever happened, I think more states than just those named would follow suit.
As to troops being sent in. The South makes up the vast majority of fighting units. No way southerners would enter Texas or any other Southern state, under orders of Obama.
Maybe they could send in the Connecticut National Guard to Texas.....laughin.
I would move there if they would have me.
Sorry TLee, we got quails, no cats allowed.
we have been there, done that, and though some of us still keep the faith, and wave the flag, the effort failed. Not only failed, but was damn expensive in men and material.
That's not as strange as it might seem and as Maarty said, something I hadn't thought of, an L shaped nation. Hopefully, a confederacy.
we have been there, done that, and though some of us still keep the faith, and wave the flag, the effort failed. Not only failed, but was damn expensive in men and material.
The North was able to claim the moral high ground because of the slave issue. What's the North's moral high ground this go around? I'm serious.
That's not as strange as it might seem and as Maarty said, something I hadn't thought of, an L shaped nation. Hopefully, a confederacy.
California wouldn't join but then they'd be left out in the cold and could be given back to Mexico. Not much would change.
it would not be North vs South this time............
we have been there, done that, and though some of us still keep the faith, and wave the flag, the effort failed. Not only failed, but was damn expensive in men and material.
No need for a civil war. It wouldn't happen.
We're talking about peaceful, amicable, divorce.
and that won't/ can't happen. There is no 'just walking away'
If Mississippi didn't join them then I would pack my guns and move to Texas.
Why not? As I pointed out, there is no standing military that would attempt to force Texas et al to stay. It's not 1860.
There is no moral banner, there is no Lincoln and unlike in the 1860's, military units aren't by state.
What would Obama do, order the 1st Cavalry Division to threaten it's neighbors?
Obama's hands would be tied. He would have no mandate from the nation and no military to wield. It would be over in weeks.
well, let's assume OK, KS, TX and LA legislatures agreed on where to have the capitol, what to use for money and some Articles of Federation and the Feds don't arrest the legislators individually before they could even get halfway started, and the four states actually declared themselves an independent country.
Uncle Sam won't like it, again, and would take steps to do something about it. I imagine the 82nd and 101st would sieze Dallas/Ft. Worth immediately. The Navy would blockade the coast and the Marines would immediately sieze Galveston, New Orleans and any other deep water ports along the coast line. Interstate roads would be cut off and most seconday roads as well so no trucks could get through.
Smuggling would still get some goods through but not enough, so store shelves would be completely bare in two days as the blockade prevented any resupply. OR, the new confederate gov't would institute strict rationing with severe penalties including death for hoarders.
OK and KS can probably produce enough food to feed the new country but AFAIK there aren't a whole lot of manufacturing facilities in those 4 states. TX and OK probably still have some oil somewhere and LA has some refineries (if the Marines didn't hold them), but any off shore oil supply would be gone, it would all have to come up from underground. You still can't eat it but at least it would be a source of trade to get the manufactured and other goods needed.
Mexico would be the main port of entry for the 1 million and one things the residents need. So Texas would have to cozy up real nice to them, that is if they didn't decide the time was ripe for trying to take back part or all of it.
Any countries trading with the new confederation would get trade sanctions from the US gov't. Now some nations wouldn't care, so the new confederacy would probably reach out to China. Maybe. I don't know if they'd risk their much larger trade relations with the rest of the US.
Let's further assume that the highly mechanized and mobile US Army does not fan out from the airports along the excellent highway and secondary road system to seize everything in sight. A ridiculous assumption, BTW, they'd control 75% of the ground in the first week.
But let's assume they didn't. With strict rationing of food, fuel and everything else, and the only countries ready to deal with you being the Chinese communists, Iran or the Mexicans (MAYBE), the populace - only 52% of whom originally went along with the jingoism and sloganeering to support secession in the first place - would be pretty pissed at their new government within two months. They don't live on farms mostly any more, are not used to self sufficiency, and want their Walmarts back.
I'd give it maybe 6 months before they'd ask to be brought back into the Union.
But I could be wrong. Give it a try, it would be interesting to see how it would actually pan out.
Why not? As I pointed out, there is no standing military that would attempt to force Texas et al to stay. It's not 1860.
There is no moral banner, there is no Lincoln and unlike in the 1860's, military units aren't by state.
What would Obama do, order the 1st Cavalry Division to threaten it's neighbors?
Obama's hands would be tied. He would have no mandate from the nation and no military to wield. It would be over in weeks.
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
and that won't/ can't happen. There is no 'just walking away'
Be easier to leave Islam.They just kill you.
The Feds would start killing Texans until they decided to un-secede,..of course.
Then the Feds would carve the President's face into the side of Mt Rushmore,...hail him as one of the greats.
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
Actually, because of the last couple picnics in the sand box, State National Guard Units are stronger and more organized than at any time in the past 100 years.
Who are these Federal forces? the FBI? Secret Service? Do you think that rag tag bunch of women and affirmative action hires wants to face off with a battle hardened NG Unit not long removed from Afghanistan and/or Iraq?
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
Who are these Federal forces?
U.S. Army
U.S. Navy
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Marines
,..for starters.
There are enough states fed up with the fed crap that it would be easier to kick a few states out. Or, maybe just fence off a few big cities and keep the states since they're controlled by just 1 or cities at the expense of the rest of the state. If you fenced off Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, NYC, Chicago and a half doz. others, this would be a very conservative country.
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
Who are these Federal forces?
U.S. Army
U.S. Navy
U.S. Air Force
U.S. Marines
,..for starters.
Laughing.... I keep getting these answers from those with no military experience...... what states do you think is on the drivers licenses of those boys in the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marines?
You think a Texan or a Louisiana boy is going to fire on a Texan? on orders of Barack Obama?
It's not 1860, there is no 1st Maine to order down to take care of those illiterate Rebs. The majority of people IN those U.S. fighting forces are from red states.
we have been there, done that, and though some of us still keep the faith, and wave the flag, the effort failed. Not only failed, but was damn expensive in men and material.
The North was able to claim the moral high ground because of the slave issue. What's the North's moral high ground this go around? I'm serious.
Libturds would starve without the union?
Well,
I guess after reading this thread I've gotten my daily dose of campfire Lunacy.
Complete with foreigners telling us how the country would be divided up...
There is a greater possibility of America making new Zealand a territory than Texas successfully seceding from the union.
Texas tried to go it alone once before and it didn't work out too well.
Some folks have too much time on their hands.
texas can secede as soon as it's payed off their share of the national debt
Right on John,or Quebec separating in Canada, just saber rattling. Never happen, it's a way of getting more from the Feds.
It has been tried before ... As far as I'm concerned, any state that wants to secede should be allowed to, on the condition they can never come back.
No sense in violence between Americans.
Well,
I guess after reading this thread I've gotten my daily dose of campfire Lunacy.
Complete with foreigners telling us how the country would be divided up...
There is a greater possibility of America making new Zealand a territory than Texas successfully seceding from the union.
Texas tried to go it alone once before and it didn't work out too well.
Some folks have too much time on their hands.
I'd trade your dopey asss for Marrrty any day of the week. If he's representative of New Zealanders, it's a fine country. One can only hope you're not representative of Mississippians.
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
Actually, because of the last couple picnics in the sand box, State National Guard Units are stronger and more organized than at any time in the past 100 years.
Who are these Federal forces? the FBI? Secret Service? Do you think that rag tag bunch of women and affirmative action hires wants to face off with a battle hardened NG Unit not long removed from Afghanistan and/or Iraq?
This is really a "Gus" type of thread, so it's not worth getting too worked up about, but the scenario would work something like one of the following.
A: Some politicians seriously propose secession and openly try to whip up support. As soon as they cross some legal line they would be arrested long before there was any real support for the idea.
B: Some politicians seriously propose secession and covertly try to whip up support. Someone blows the whistle and those politicians are arrested long before there was any real support for the idea.
C: Some politicians seriously propose secession and covertly whip up enough support to pass a secession bill in a surprise move. Only then would they find out how much public support they had and they might find there were lots of citizens that oppose them. Before they can get anything organized the Texas NG would be federalized (stroke of a pen) and all the regular military bases in Texas would go on alert. Federal agents would swoop in an arrest the secessionists. End of story.
D: On 12/21/2012 the world as we know it comes to an end per the Mayan prediction, but there's some remnant of civilization like in the movie "Postman". In that case breaking up the U.S. into smaller nations would make sense and there would be little if any resistance to secession from a nation that doesn't really exist anymore.
If you want to believe Texas and a few other states could secede without causing an all out civil war, that's fine with me. Each of us are entitled to our fantasies.
Well,
I guess after reading this thread I've gotten my daily dose of campfire Lunacy.
Complete with foreigners telling us how the country would be divided up...
There is a greater possibility of America making new Zealand a territory than Texas successfully seceding from the union.
Texas tried to go it alone once before and it didn't work out too well.
Some folks have too much time on their hands.
Not too many countries with the same borders today that they had 240 years ago. Probably will never happen, but it could.
Balkanization is probably more likely long term than us staying one homogenous nation. We're no longer a melting pot.
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
Actually, because of the last couple picnics in the sand box, State National Guard Units are stronger and more organized than at any time in the past 100 years.
Who are these Federal forces? the FBI? Secret Service? Do you think that rag tag bunch of women and affirmative action hires wants to face off with a battle hardened NG Unit not long removed from Afghanistan and/or Iraq?
As long as it was done in a reasonable and orderly fashion, it's hard to understand how the Feds could sell it to the rest of the country.
I heard Alaska is so much bigger than Texas and always bragging about it, that they'd just take care of our part of the debt. Mighty uh...white of them.
I would move there if they would have me.
Sorry TLee, we got quails, no cats allowed.
My cats don't leave the house, ever.
This is really a "Gus" type of thread, so it's not worth getting too worked up about, but the scenario would work something like one of the following.
A: Some politicians seriously propose secession and openly try to whip up support. As soon as they cross some legal line they would be arrested long before there was any real support for the idea.
B: Some politicians seriously propose secession and covertly try to whip up support. Someone blows the whistle and those politicians are arrested long before there was any real support for the idea.
C: Some politicians seriously propose secession and covertly whip up enough support to pass a secession bill in a surprise move. Only then would they find out how much public support they had and they might find there were lots of citizens that oppose them. Before they can get anything organized the Texas NG would be federalized (stroke of a pen) and all the regular military bases in Texas would go on alert. Federal agents would swoop in an arrest the secessionists. End of story.
D: On 12/21/2012 the world as we know it comes to an end per the Mayan prediction, but there's some remnant of civilization like in the movie "Postman". In that case breaking up the U.S. into smaller nations would make sense and there would be little if any resistance to secession from a nation that doesn't really exist anymore.
If you want to believe Texas and a few other states could secede without causing an all out civil war, that's fine with me. Each of us are entitled to our fantasies.
Truthfully, I don't think we're at the point where it could occur. People are still too fat, dumb and happy.
My point is really that drawing comparisons to the Civil War of 1860 isn't accurate. We are a far different country now and the military structure doesn't lend itself well to what Lincoln was able to do.
despite the wet dreams of the disaffected, there is not, nor will there be the popular support to disolve the Union.
Like it or not, there won't be any secession, or even any meaningful effort to do so.
This is serious stuff, not phantasy board or puter games you are playing at. Many of you are already over the line on the way to an insurrection indictment through your indiscriminate use of the inet. Pleading immaturity or mental deficiency is your only way out.
What chance do such mental giants have of succeeding at seccession?
There would be a civil war within your Confederacy to deal with before you even had to confront any outside force.
What looney would lead this pitiful bunch of sniveling wind ****ers!!
Do you think any foreign power except sworn enemies of yours would play ball with you to your advantage?
Anyone thought out economic and financial viabilty issues yet?
How would your Confederacy deal with the big social issues -- class and race tensions, organized crime, the failing educational system that created you...
How would you counter and stop successions from within the Confederacy once you have acted out your wet dream?
"The union now and foreever" was set deep into our history and system by bigger men than you ever will be.
Grow up.
1B
despite the wet dreams of the disaffected, there is not, nor will there be the popular support to disolve the Union.
Like it or not, there won't be any secession, or even any meaningful effort to do so.
be disaffected if this election goes to the Commies again.
This is serious stuff, not phantasy board or puter games you are playing at. Many of you are already over the line on the way to an insurrection indictment through your indiscriminate use of the inet. Pleading immaturity or mental deficiency is your only way out.
What chance do such mental giants have of succeeding at seccession?
There would be a civil war within your Confederacy to deal with before you even had to confront any outside force.
What looney would lead this pitiful bunch of sniveling wind ****ers!!
Do you think any foreign power except sworn enemies of yours would play ball with you to your advantage? Anyone thought of economic viabilty issues yet?
How would your Confederacy deal with the big social issues -- class and race tensions, organized crime, the failing educatioonal system that created you...
How would you counter and stop successions from within the Confederracy once you have acted out your wet dream?
"The union now and foreever" was set deep into our history and system by bigger men than you ever will be.
1B
bwaaaahahaaa Another Obama voter rears his head.
This is really a "Gus" type of thread, so it's not worth getting too worked up about, but the scenario would work something like one of the following.
A: Some politicians seriously propose secession and openly try to whip up support. As soon as they cross some legal line they would be arrested long before there was any real support for the idea.
B: Some politicians seriously propose secession and covertly try to whip up support. Someone blows the whistle and those politicians are arrested long before there was any real support for the idea.
C: Some politicians seriously propose secession and covertly whip up enough support to pass a secession bill in a surprise move. Only then would they find out how much public support they had and they might find there were lots of citizens that oppose them. Before they can get anything organized the Texas NG would be federalized (stroke of a pen) and all the regular military bases in Texas would go on alert. Federal agents would swoop in an arrest the secessionists. End of story.
D: On 12/21/2012 the world as we know it comes to an end per the Mayan prediction, but there's some remnant of civilization like in the movie "Postman". In that case breaking up the U.S. into smaller nations would make sense and there would be little if any resistance to secession from a nation that doesn't really exist anymore.
If you want to believe Texas and a few other states could secede without causing an all out civil war, that's fine with me. Each of us are entitled to our fantasies.
Truthfully, I don't think we're at the point where it could occur. People are still too fat, dumb and happy.
My point is really that drawing comparisons to the Civil War of 1860 isn't accurate. We are a far different country now and the military structure doesn't lend itself well to what Lincoln was able to do.
I could see people in these states voting for it. The impetus for the Feds stepping in would be to preserve the rights of the voters that didn't.
EE,
I've been voting against Democrats longer for 50 years. But I am sane.
1B
This is serious stuff, not phantasy board or puter games you are playing at. Many of you are already over the line on the way to an insurrection indictment through your indiscriminate use of the inet. Pleading immaturity or mental deficiency is your only way out.
What chance do such mental giants have of succeeding at seccession?
There would be a civil war within your Confederacy to deal with before you even had to confront any outside force.
What looney would lead this pitiful bunch of sniveling wind ****ers!!
Do you think any foreign power except sworn enemies of yours would play ball with you to your advantage?
Anyone thought out economic and financial viabilty issues yet?
How would your Confederacy deal with the big social issues -- class and race tensions, organized crime, the failing educational system that created you...
How would you counter and stop successions from within the Confederacy once you have acted out your wet dream?
"The union now and foreever" was set deep into our history and system by bigger men than you ever will be.
Grow up.
1B
You can't have a free country if those who created it aren't free to dissolve it just as they made it. Secession has never been ruled upon by the Supreme Court. That's why they never tried Jefferson Davis. The Chief Justice of the day admitted that if he were tried he would be vindicated and if he was vindicated secession would be legal. The whole war was and is a sham. It all hinges upon whether a union entered freely may be freely left. In a truly free country everybody knows the answer to that, except as Bristoe would say...the Knothead contingent.
This is serious stuff, not phantasy board or puter games you are playing at. Many of you are already over the line on the way to an insurrection indictment through your indiscriminate use of the inet. Pleading immaturity or mental deficiency is your only way out.
What chance do such mental giants have of succeeding at seccession?
There would be a civil war within your Confederacy to deal with before you even had to confront any outside force.
What looney would lead this pitiful bunch of sniveling wind ****ers!!
Do you think any foreign power except sworn enemies of yours would play ball with you to your advantage?
Anyone thought out economic and financial viabilty issues yet?
How would your Confederacy deal with the big social issues -- class and race tensions, organized crime, the failing educational system that created you...
How would you counter and stop successions from within the Confederacy once you have acted out your wet dream?
"The union now and foreever" was set deep into our history and system by bigger men than you ever will be.
Grow up.
1B
We're about 3 days from possibly re-electing the most anti-American President in history and you're lecturing us on Insurrection?
The 1st Amendment is still valid, at least for another year or two. No one has advocated any illegal activities in this thread. Discussing what would potentially happen, if a state tried to do such a thing, is not insurrection.
Lighten up, Francis.
EE,
I've been voting against Democrats longer for 50 years. But I am sane.
1B
I've worked with persons the state said were insane and almost to a man, they said they weren't.
So if you're sane and not an Obama voter, that would make you a Knothead.
taking, let's say, Oklahoma and Kansas with it. Maybe Louisiana too.
Texas couldn't afford it.
I heard Alaska is so much bigger than Texas and always bragging about it, that they'd just take care of our part of the debt.
My advice would be to hit up ron paul for a refund
Got an email yesterday from a friend who says if Obama wins he may move from PA to Texas because of their succession rumors.
There are two good votes for Mitt at that PA house.
Here in Missouri I voted last week, felt real good to put my mark down for Mitt who has never been my number one choice.
it would be kinda funny watching Texas become 'North Mexico'
You guys are crazy if you think the federal government is going to watch the oil/gas reserves, and 30+ refineries located in TX and LA separate from the union without a fight. That doesn't include the chemical plants that many make products that are ONLY made at that one chemical plant used by the rest of the country.
Look around the world and see how many other conflicts revolve a state with oil trying to get out from under another countries control and see how that goes.
it would be kinda funny watching Texas become 'North Mexico'
Too late for that.
Well,...if it's any consolation, the government is pretty much a joke these day,...but when our elected government no longer can claim any legitimacy, the real power brokers will stop the farce, step forward and make their presence known.
Of course,..before that happens the world will have gone to [bleep] to such a degree that it'll just be viewed as one more thing.
The exodus would be massive. All those sucking government titty would leave.
Of course the civil war didn't settle the legal question of succession. That war simply showed who was stronger. Just like the war, if a state is required to remain in the union it is under federal occupation. For a republic to truly work the states have to be free also. That also means the state has to be free to pursue its own destiny.
You guys are crazy if you think the federal government is going to watch the oil/gas reserves, and 30+ refineries located in TX and LA separate from the union without a fight. That doesn't include the chemical plants that many make products that are ONLY made at that one chemical plant used by the rest of the country.
Look around the world and see how many other conflicts revolve a state with oil trying to get out from under another countries control and see how that goes.
You're forgetting, Obama doesn't like oil wells. He'll just print money to build more windmills, Volts and solar panels.
Of course,..before that happens the world will have gone to [bleep] to such a degree that it'll just be viewed as one more thing.
I imagine the thought of detoxing scares the chit outa ya.
if a state is required to remain in the union it is under federal occupation.
,...been that way for quite some time.
There is no need to secede. All we have to do is burn the district of columbia to the ground and build Rick Perry a new white house in Austin.
Of course,..before that happens the world will have gone to [bleep] to such a degree that it'll just be viewed as one more thing.
I imagine the thought of detoxing scares the chit outa ya.
Mr Republican has arrived.
Yeah,..I had to give up the GOP when they told me that watch4bear was their poster child.
"But,...but", I say,..."He's got an IQ of 38".
"Exactly!", they replied.
You guys are crazy if you think the federal government is going to watch the oil/gas reserves, and 30+ refineries located in TX and LA separate from the union without a fight. That doesn't include the chemical plants that many make products that are ONLY made at that one chemical plant used by the rest of the country.
Look around the world and see how many other conflicts revolve a state with oil trying to get out from under another countries control and see how that goes.
You're forgetting, Obama doesn't like oil wells. He'll just print money to build more windmills, Volts and solar panels.
Doesn't matter. What people say and what people actually "do" are two different things. You think he would stay in power long when people get access to 1/20th the gasoline they have today and get to buy gas every 2 weeks at 10 times the price?
isn't this where you say "make love not war"?
Got to love Texans. Silly fools think the universe rotates around them...
Doesn't matter. What people say and what people actually "do" are two different things. You think he would stay in power long when people get access to 1/20th the gasoline they have today and get to buy gas every 2 weeks at 10 times the price?
Frog in the boiling pot.
He's this close to getting re-elected with gas prices double what they were when he took office.
Do you think Texas would stop producing crude? It would be no different than Brazil or Venezuela. A New Yorker doesn't care where his gas comes from, they still go to Citgo and Shell, don't they?
ALL of you guys need to get up, go outside, and go hunting. Where are you guys coming up with this crazy schitt at?!
ALL of you guys need to get up, go outside, and go hunting. Where are you guys coming up with this crazy schitt at?!
This is the campfire forum.. In case you haven't noticed, not many hunters here.
Try the General Hunting forum, deer, elk, rifles, reloading..
People have fun on those forums, too!
There is no need for Texas or any other state to secede from the union. We just need to secede from Washigton DC.
That's where the source of all the trouble is.
Paul B.
Just thinking about the response - if New Mexico joined.
Los Alamos Natl Lab
Sandia Natl Lab
White Sands Missile Range
Kirtland AFB
Holloman AFB
Cannon AFB
And a large geographical portion of FT Bliss
Bet THAT news would get a response!
Mark
(Note: all photos are clickable links)
As with many serious topics on the fire, the uneducated and ignorant spew their subjective opinions, based upon their shaded state sponsored education, instead of using the two ears and one mouth that God gave them. For the well read and informed population, the subject of modern day secession has been discussed and debated for years as the only peaceful way to solved the problem of "Mordor on the Potomac."
For those who are intelligent enough to read and learn, may I recommend you start with a book that clearly and logically lays out the current situation so that even the majority of our campfire members can understand the problem and the solution. This can all be done peacefully and within the legal confines of the Constitution. The bottom line is our population has grown too large for the Central Government to govern as a representative republic. That is the singular issue that secession would solve. This would allow the Central Government to concern itself with foreign affairs, declaring war, and regulating commerce. Everything else is left to the states.
![[Linked Image]]( http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51t-i8Q5xOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
As for the disinformation on secession and President Lincoln, may I recommend you start listening to the Sirius/XM radio program host
Mike Church who is a modern day scholar on American History dating back to the Revolution and the writings of the founding fathers. His informative and historical docu-drama "What Lincoln Killed"
![[Linked Image]](http://www.mikechurch.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/wlk-featured1-300x149.jpg)
explains that secession was not a foreign subject to the founders and was first seriously considered in 1803 by Timothy Pickering and the Northern States, (long before the Civil War,) which States were against the Louisiana Purchase; because they could see no benefit for themselves in paying for the purchase which directly benefitted the southern states.
In contrast to Steven Spielberg's new propaganda movie "Lincoln," consider reading
Professor Thomas DiLorenzo's two books on Lincoln for another viewpoint. If nothing else, you will no longer be considered ignorant nor uneducated on the topic of Constitutional secession.
![[Linked Image]](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41P5QCWB6FL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
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No thinking on the campfire forum, really!
This can all be done peacefully
I agree with a lot of your post,..but not this part.
Governments gather power through control.
No government will willingly cede any of its power.
Every war in history has been waged in order for governments to increase the scope of their control.
Czech Republic and Slovakia split amicably post Soviet meltdown, after being a single nation for all intents and purposes, for nearly the entire 20th century.
The Saar, which had historically been held by France and Germany at different times in history, was allowed to vote as to which country it wanted to be a part of, or if it wanted independence.
Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, both oil rich countries broke from the Soviet Union.
The Ukraine broke from Russia after hundreds of years of control.
The United States has allowed Puerto Rico to vote on independence.
There are dozens of such examples.
Well,
I guess after reading this thread I've gotten my daily dose of campfire Lunacy.
Complete with foreigners telling us how the country would be divided up...
There is a greater possibility of America making new Zealand a territory than Texas successfully seceding from the union
Texas tried to go it alone once before and it didn't work out too well.
Some folks have too much time on their hands.
I'd trade your dopey asss for Marrrty any day of the week. If he's representative of New Zealanders, it's a fine country. One can only hope you're not representative of Mississippians.
Ethan,
You're a loon.
Czech Republic and Slovakia split amicably post Soviet meltdown, after being a single nation for all intents and purposes, for nearly the entire 20th century.
The Saar, which had historically been held by France and Germany at different times in history, was allowed to vote as to which country it wanted to be a part of, or if it wanted independence.
Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan, both oil rich countries broke from the Soviet Union.
The Ukraine broke from Russia after hundreds of years of control.
,..all occurred as a result of the collapse of the centralized government which held control.
It didn't willingly collapse.
Not all. France won WWII, and later gave the Saar it's release. And the Saar was filled with people of French lineage.
The U.S. offered PR independence at the height of it's power.
England gave many of it's commonwealth possessions their Independence.
When my town split off from the city parish government they got a bill for all the stuff the city parish had built and the school system. Imagine the bill the feds would hand over for all the military bases etc....
This can all be done peacefully
I agree with a lot of your post,..but not this part.
Governments gather power through control.
No government will willingly cede any of its power.
Every war in history has been waged in order for governments to increase the scope of their control.
True 'Nuff
Nice presentation, Orange Okie, never happen, but sounds like a good read. Thanks.
A few things I see about this if it did happen:
1. Both economies would be F***ED. I mean seriously. Only our parents and grandparents who endured rationing during WWII and the depression can begin to understand. Or, people from third world countries. Entire life savings of US dollars worthless. Businesses collapsing. Chaos.
2. Someone said the 82nd Airborne would capture Dallas, etc. A few youtube videos of US Soldiers manhandling Dallasites would be very powerful propaganda tools, expecially in today's media society.
3. Once it happened, America's enemies around the globe would seize the opportunity to act up. The US gov't would have more to worry about than Texas.
44henry
Just for arguments sake, let's say some states seceded. Why would there be an economic collapse?
Texas has the same size economy as Australia
Florida's economy is bigger than Switzerland,
Georgia's economy is the same size as Austria.
Combine just those 3 states and you have the 5th largest economy in the world.
As long as there was no war that damaged resources, both the U.S. and any split off country would thrive economically.
A few things I see about this if it did happen:
1. Both economies would be F***ED. I mean seriously. Only our parents and grandparents who endured rationing during WWII and the depression can begin to understand. Or, people from third world countries. Entire life savings of US dollars worthless. Businesses collapsing. Chaos.
2. Someone said the 82nd Airborne would capture Dallas, etc. A few youtube videos of US Soldiers manhandling Dallasites would be very powerful propaganda tools, expecially in today's media society.
3. Once it happened, America's enemies around the globe would seize the opportunity to act up. The US gov't would have more to worry about than Texas.
44henry
I don't envision it this way. We would all still be American Citizens and a united republic. The only changes (albeit a pretty big deal) would be new unions of like minded states forming more manageable and governable republics. The general government would still have a legislative, judicial, and executive branch, but they would only be attending to the regulation of commerce, the declaration of war, and attending to foreign affairs, as outlined in the Constitution. All other government would be carried out within the newly formed republics of individual states. This would be much closer to the original intent of the founders. No longer would we have to suffer at the hands of an imperial general government, of which Jefferson wrote and warned in his 13 August 1800 letter to Gideon Granger:
"Our country is too large to have all of its affairs conducted by a single government. Public servants at such a distance and from under the eye of their constituents, must, from circumstances of distance, be unable to administer and overlook all details necessary for the good government of the citizens, and the same circumstances, by rendering detection impossible to their constituents, will invite the public agents to corruption, plunder, and waste. And I do verily believe, that if the principle were to prevail, of a common law being in force in the U.S., (which principle possesses the general government at once of all the powers of the State governments, and reduces us to a single consolidated government) it would become the most corrupt government on the earth."
We fought a bloody war to free ourselves from a foreign imperial general government . . . why allow ourselves to be enslaved under another on these shores?
taking, let's say, Oklahoma and Kansas with it. Maybe Louisiana too. If they were to secede after the election, what do y'all think would happen? I mean, lets say the impetus was simple math...the economy. Let's say these three or four states simply said they couldn't continue to do things economically, the way the Feds wanted to and also they didn't agree with the way things were going socially, let's say with the disregard to our borders and the constant clamor for gun control despite the Constitution, Supreme Court rulings and common sense. What would the Feds do about it? I mean, if the msm is truly enough in the pocket of the big boys, I'm sure something could be drummed up...Obama voters being kept down, racism, whatever. But seriously, there aren't any slaves now to free. How could it be spun? The world knows the United States claims to be free. How can a country claiming to be such prevent states that freely entered a union from freely leaving, when there is nobody to "protect"?
It would give us a reason to finally build that fence lol!
I wouldn't mind living in Texas. I always liked the area around College Station.
There's no standing army to oppose the Feds either. What would happen is that federal forces would arrest all the politicians who came up with such an idea and charge them with treason.
The issue was settled once and for all in 1865. Once in there's no taking your marbles and leaving just because you don't agree with the rest of the nation.
This
GTC
Actually, because of the last couple picnics in the sand box, State National Guard Units are stronger and more organized than at any time in the past 100 years.
Who are these Federal forces? the FBI? Secret Service? Do you think that rag tag bunch of women and affirmative action hires wants to face off with a battle hardened NG Unit not long removed from Afghanistan and/or Iraq?
It's a bigger stretch than Oprah's pantyhose, but I'm for the Republic of Texas rising to her independence, in L-shaped glory.
The L-shape is crucial, extending at least up the west slope of the Divide. Success of any southwestern empire would have little to do with oil/gas/coal, though they'd be great.
If you think,"independence from federalism" anywhere out of
hurricane-affected zones, you need to think,"water", before you even start. Control of access to the Rockies' watersheds would be
the success or failure of any attempt, which means the SW doesn't
secede w/o conquering the water-gulping urbanites. Let's start with Denver, and work south.
Never happen
The Current US gov would never let that happen.
It would lead to further Fragmentation.
And
For My beloved Texas... we would be embargoed...
No standing army or navy or Coast guard� the southern border in shambles�
It sounds bleak
Things would get better but I doubt the Republic would last long enough for that to happen.
And
There is corrupt politicians even here in Texas.
Got to love Texans. Silly fools think the universe rotates around them...
Are you saying it doesn�t?
I'm just building one of these...
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I'm just building one of these...
Good thing...
One way or another that would be handy
Snake
I think Tejas would make a fine foreign country to whup on.
Them big hats and belt buckles and bigger egos can be seen from space. Easy pickin's.
Let's not forget that Texas has the two biggest army bases in the United States (ft hood and ft bliss) both mechanized infantry divisions made up of many young texans that signed the dotted line right here in Texas. Chit would get interesting for sure!
Tough talk from the most effette, limp wristed state in the union. If a dork like you ever shows up in Texas, they'd have you wearing a dress and singing Mary Had a Little Lamb in under a minute.JeffO's presence here is proof positive we allow diversity here, he's our resident fairy princess.
Another ego geyser from our resident buffoon. Watch out around open flames and/or sharp objects there, y'old gasbag.
It's a bigger stretch than Oprah's pantyhose, but I'm for the Republic of Texas rising to her independence, in L-shaped glory.
The L-shape is crucial, extending at least up the west slope of the Divide. Success of any southwestern empire would have little to do with oil/gas/coal, though they'd be great.
If you think,"independence from federalism" anywhere out of
hurricane-affected zones, you need to think,"water", before you even start. Control of access to the Rockies' watersheds would be
the success or failure of any attempt, which means the SW doesn't
secede w/o conquering the water-gulping urbanites. Let's start with Denver, and work south.
Look up Texas as it originally was.It contained parts of N.M.,Co.,Ne.Kansas , and Ok. as I remember seeing on a map one time.
I stand corrected,we had part of Wy.,not Ne. [good trade]
These maps show the territory included in the Republic of Texas, which was much more expansive than the present day State of Texas. When the Republic of Texas was Annexed into the United States, its territory was split into different states. The original territory became the state of Texas, and parts of New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, Oklahoma and Kansas
I think Tejas would make a fine foreign country to whup on.
Them big hats and belt buckles and bigger egos can be seen from space. Easy pickin's.
Hey, quit starin' at my belt buckle.
I think Tejas would make a fine foreign country to whup on.
Them big hats and belt buckles and bigger egos can be seen from space. Easy pickin's.
Don't give up your day job cause you aren't a very good comedian..........
As far as your opinion of Jorge...you couldn't be more wrong. He is one of the finer people I have had the pleasure of meeting and hunting with.
Let's not forget that Texas has the two biggest army bases in the United States (ft hood and ft bliss) both mechanized infantry divisions made up of many young texans that signed the dotted line right here in Texas. Chit would get interesting for sure!
Those be federal troops. Maybe you forgot the "Foreign and Domestic" part. UCMJ would deal with those who opt out fairly quickly...
Let's not forget that Texas has the two biggest army bases in the United States (ft hood and ft bliss) both mechanized infantry divisions made up of many young texans that signed the dotted line right here in Texas. Chit would get interesting for sure!
True
I'm guesen we would be in for a porken Pert Darn Quick
It just would not be allowed.
There is no longer a good outcome
Snake
We'll just torture em with naked pictures of Renee Zellweger...
I'd like to see Obama try to tell these proud young men and women from Texas serving in the army that their friends,families and statesman are domestic threats, I'm thinking that wouldn't go over as we'll as you suggest! I don't believe the UCMJ would be convincing enough either.
For the boys named Bubba you may be right.
For all those troops named Gonzalez and Washington (and there were a bunch like that when I was in, I think the percentage may be even higher now), they may have a different point of view if offered a chance to whup on some white Southern rednecks.
For the boys named Bubba you may be right.
For all those troops named Gonzalez and Washington (and there were a bunch like that when I was in, I think the percentage may be even higher now), they may have a different point of view if offered a chance to whup on some white Southern rednecks.
"Chance" being the operative word here.
Southerners make up 41% of the U.S. military, even though their states only make up 25% of the country.
Southerners make up an even higher portion of fighting forces than their proportion of the military.
The Washington's make up a lower portion of U.S. fighting forces than their national demographic percentage.
The Gonzalez's make up an even lower portion of the overall military and a much lower portion of fighting forces, than their national demographic percentage.
White southerners are the largest block of the U.S. military fighting force. Why do you think Obama is doing his damnedest to prevent the military from voting?
Read your history.. the term "Redneck" came from the North,mostly Michigan,given to the farmers by other farmers,not meant in a negative manner,only to describe their hard work in the fields.
I don't know many farmers I would care to arm wrestle with myself.
The rest of the country uses it without regard to what it means.
Back to the Op's question, yes,I would bring as many of my guns and ammo and offer to watch a border in return for living in common sense..
I'm thinking those proud southern girls and boys, defending texas and thereabouts, would feel a little different when their paychecks aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
Read your history.. the term "Redneck" came from the North,mostly Michigan,given to the farmers by other farmers,not meant in a negative manner,only to describe their hard work in the fields.
I had not heard that theory before. The history I read said the term "Red Neck" came from the coal miners in West Virginia who wore red bandanas around their neck during an armed uprising in the early 20th Century.
Now I understand why BUFFs did so many low level penetrations into Texas.
Practice!
Lets take it to the next step. How about each county government seceding from Texas, then each city in that county seceding from the county government......................until we are left with 300,000,000 "free" people.
u can't u have to many people, tx..... we about gave it a go up here...then "our leader died"......
When my town split off from the city parish government they got a bill for all the stuff the city parish had built and the school system. Imagine the bill the feds would hand over for all the military bases etc....
Billin' ain't the same as collectin'
Mark
So, what would we call it, KOTEX? Run the tape from Wichita, through OKC to Dallas, right down the turnpike.
Me too, Id move there.....
I think Tejas would make a fine foreign country to whup on.
Them big hats and belt buckles and bigger egos can be seen from space. Easy pickin's.
You boys from the Pac NW can come on down as soon as you're ready.
Expat
...No need for a civil war. It wouldn't happen.
We're talking about peaceful, amicable, divorce.
So was Jeff Davis.
What do you do when the Feds won't withdraw the troops they have stationed on Tejas soil?
Wow, another rapier-like jeffobama putdown, but like dogshit, one just scrapse it off the bottom of one's Loveless boots and move on. Really I have to snicker at posts like yours. This from a guy who hid his lunch money when he went to school...