Playing off another thread, I was curious as to the opinions of the membership as to this question:

If your son or daughter told you they were gay and in love with someone of the same sex, would that somehow change the love you have for that child?

If your best friend said the same thing to you, would the friendship change?

IMO, true love and true friendship can not be impacted by such a dynamic. For those who believe it can, please help me to understand how that irreparable void occurs.

no it wouldn't.

Dono, never had any kids, traveled to damn much.

Buds would be out.

Gunner

Tell me why,amigo.

You know I respect your opinion. But really think it through.

Glad you didn't say, "Buds would be screwed."

To be as polite as possible, I consider one man corndogging another to be a great abomination and morally reprehensible, if they will do that, what else would they not do?

That would also identify said Bud as someone I only thought I knew.

Gunner

Gunner

isaac,

I have a daughter like that. The only thing that change is we don't do communion together anymore. I enjoy her male friends. I am too old to be cute to them so we are just friends.

what people do in their bedroom is none of my damn business, just as mine is none of their damn business.

if someone told me they were gay, i'd be sad for them because i know it's a hard life to live with so many people hating them and making things tough on them.

but no it wouldn't change a damn thing. unless it came with other changes which affected me or my loved ones.

as long as one's choices only affect oneself, then whatever. the moment it hurts someone else in some measurable way, you're done dude.

and no one holds the ability to make me mad or offended. i choose to be those things. i think a lot of gays are flamboyant to push their agenda and piss people off. who cares, if we all ignored them and treated them like everyone else i think things would be better.

You don't have to be polite with a trench fighting friend, like yourself.

Take your best friend now...life long...since you were kids..the one you'd bury bodies for and who'd help you burying bodies...he tells you such a thing tomorrow...he's done and gone then?

Don't worry Bob I'll always be your friend...glad you are coming out of the closet

Yessir, I'd be sad, but he'd be gone.

Gunner

BWAAHAHAHA!!!!!

Gunner

As one lawyer to another, I know you'll understand when I say, it depends.

For one thing, I'm not in love with my best friend.

I get that.

What I truly am curious about is how folks define true love or a true friendship.

For me personally, I have 2 male friends who have been there for me since I was a young teenager and 3 others who have been there for me since near the time I became a lawyer.

If they dropped that bombshell on me tomorrow and I bailed, is it a reflection of me as a person or of them?

==========

Let's not play semantics,ok?

You know what I'm addressing,1M.

My best friend did tell me that, and no it did not change things one itoa between us, she never judged my life, and I wasn't about to judge hers. She passed away about 18 months ago, from a torn aorta, God Bless her. Yes, I said it, God Bless her.

As for my children, they are MY children, but who they choose to love is not my business, unless that person seeks to harm them in ANY way. Other than that, they are mine, now, and always, period.

In my case it's being true to myself and my beliefs on what I believe to be right and wrong.

Painful as it may be, I'd have to stick to my guns, although, I've never had/needed friends there for me either.

Gunner

Hell it would save the cock blocking when you go out

Would you bail because they were gay or because they deceived you and kept it a secret from you?

Unfortunately, don't have any friends like that. Only thing comparable would be a guy that I went to HS with and then to college with.

If he pulled that, I don't think I'd be as mad at him for his lifestyle as I would be for living the lie.

I can't say what I'd do in that situation. I don't think there's anything that could prepare a person for that, unless you've been in "those" shoes.

Hopefully I'd forgo my Redneck First response and try to act Christ like..

Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner route, but things would probably never get back to the way they were....

Wouldn't change my love but it would likely change my relationship. With young children in my home I would have to be careful that it didn't seem to be something I approved of.

=========

Are you saying that which made him a trusted friend can no longer exist because of his disclosure?

Wouldn't change anything for me, I don't think. Hard to say until it happens, I guess, but I hope I wouldn't treat them different.

If I could add one thing, what would you do if they were a non-participating homosexual? Say they were gay but decided it was wrong so they didn't actually have a relationship? There are people who are celibate, so would that change your opinion, knowing that they wanted to but didn't? Is it just the act that would change your opinion of them?

Yes, Counselor.

Gunner

I think it's a reflection on the relationships. If my closest friends all 'came out' as gay, I'd wager I never really knew them very well...at all.

Would it matter? Yes, it would to me.

Guess I don't truly love anyone.

This^^^. Yep, never knew them.

If I could add one thing, what would you do if they were a non-participating homosexual? Say they were gay but decided it was wrong so they didn't actually have a relationship? There are people who are celibate, so would that change your opinion, knowing that they wanted to but didn't? Is it just the act that would change your opinion of them?
-------------------

If it were a loved one,family or true friend, should it even matter?

Friends would be out, I never knew them anyway if they turned out gay. I would pray for them.

They will always be my children and I would still love them but I would be so disappointed I'm not sure I could fellowship with them. I am raising my sons as Christians and seeing that God calls homosexuality an abomination that is what I teach them. I would continue to pray for them as I do for any other number of things.

A lot of interesting comments. I know exactly what I would do and what my wife would do if one of our friends turned out gay or lesbian. We would love them just as we loved them before.

Now before I get blasted because I am a Christian let me say this. I do not approve, I do not understand, I know God does not approve, but I would still love them.

I know this because in the last three years to woman we have known since they were kids have told us they are lesbians. There are also two gay men closely attached to our lives. I don't approve, I don't understand but they are both great guys and are welcome in my home and at my table.

Can True Love Be Conditional?

No - if it's conditional then it's not true. Conditional love would be a oxymoron.


Much of what is called love is just a form of addiction with the other person giving you something you want or need, whether emotional, spiritual or physical. When that other person no longer provides what you need then you "fall out of love" with them. A good yardstick I have read is that you know it is actually love when you don't want anything from the other person.

=========

You've always been a straight up man and respected by me and many others here, pard. I can't understand the ease by which someone could say "you're erased" to an acknowledged friend,though.

I don't have any gay friends; I don't think I do anyways. I do know what true friends I do have. They became such without more than the usual life long proven criteria. I'd hate losing such a thing for something I never concerned myself with in the first place.

So Bob, what if one of your friends said he was a pedophile?

We had a different, but instructive, situation in our family. My brother in law had cause to have his DNA tested. It turned out that he is 1/8 negro.

It didn't faze us in the slightest. He's still the same great guy I grew up with, the one who married my sister about 40 years ago.

His siblings are in serious denial though.

I struggle with this and have given it some thought. Humans tend to "rank" our sin from almost acceptable to downright despicable, with homos registering on the Super Evil end of the spectrum.

Does God view our sin that way.? What I get from scripture is, sin is sin is SIN...

We are all sinners, and sin all the time, even when we don't want to. Paul was struggling with sin in Romans 7. It makes me feel better that he was struggling with it as well...

While I find Homosexuality disgusting and a perversion of Nature, is it any more of a Sin than Coveting your neighbors possessions or having an affair with someone other than your wife.?

Just some tough questions that have crossed my mind lately...

==========

Really,doctor?

No, I don't think it should. I'm just curious what it is exactly that would cause some people to drop a loved one or someone close to them from their lives. Some say it's because homosexuality is an abomination, but does that change if the person didn't actually engage in the behaviour?

pedo ='s target, no?

Gunner

Unconditional love does not necessarily mean unconditional acceptance or approval.

Thanks Bob, same here, much of this may be geographical, and I know for fact it's stubborn traditional belief in my case.

Gunner

Either breaks His law, if not the law. His may carry a harsher verdict.

At least you're straight up honest with no twists and turns. I get it...even if I don't fully understand it.

What if it was your brother? Your sister?

Gunner...if it takes years to develop that bond worthy of being called friendship, how does one erase it nano-seconds after a "hey I suck dick" awkward enlightenment?

With friends I would still love them but would not support their choice and my home would be off limits. Not bringing that into my house and leaving a open door for whatever evil to come in, sorry. My friends know me and they know my beliefs so they could deal with it or move on. All my friends are like minded. Trick is don't befriend weirdos and all will be well.

My kids, I will never have to worry about that. 100% boys through and through! Both REALLY like girls. Thank god.

Homos gross me out.

Bro and Sis would be shunned, and as for turning off the switch on friends.........I'm not completely normal, it wouldn't be hard.

Gunner

If there is a true love it would be Gods love.
Many stories in the Bible tell us God may love all of mankind, but he will not necessarily accept some behavior. Sodom and Gomorrah are prime examples. Moses and the Egyptian's and many more examples are there for all to see

I have a step son that's a [bleep] . Wife won't let me kill him , but that's all the restrait I shown. She ain't real proud either, he was f'd up when the mrs and I got together too far down the tubes to pull him out , lost cause

Damn.

Gunner

Wow such vitriol

I'll leave God to do the judging

Oh I know I even thought about buying the guy a trip to Vegas or such and a couple hookers so manybe he see what he is missing, but my brither pointed out the step son would probably just want to try on the hookers clothes !! MOTHER F..............

If I were to believe in a God, I'd like to think he'd ask who the f**k I thought I was in judging others who differed from my preconceived notions.

I've had that conversation with my son.

I still love him, no conditions.

this cuts to the root of it I think. We all know how rare truly good friends are. And I believe it would say much more about me were I to turn my back. I have seen a few people struggle mightily with the weight and confusion of homosexuality before they decided to "come out". It weren't no walk in the park. Many of them have been thru hell already, Who the hell are we to judge anyway.

Quoting God's word is not judging, the word itself will judge us all. We are to love the sinner and hate the sin. Homosexuality like so many other things is a sin, according to God.

One sin is the same as the next in God's eyes.

I want to give you a definitive answer but there are too many variables. Some people in my life, it wouldn't matter but I would be disappointed personally. That's on me, not them. Others I just know we would drift apart.

I don't see a bunch of anger or negativity towards them.

That said, I'm sorry you and SH are having problems.

Okay, that's funny.

To me, love means always acting in a person's genuine best interest, as you understand it.

It does not preclude disagreement. Parents know this. Disagreement is not HATE!

It does not mean supporting or enabling all behavior.

That is real, not conditional love. It's honest.

I believe Christians are called to that kind of love, like it or not.

I hope I would be like this. I should be.

The only kind of people available to love are sinners. Can't wait for them to be perfect.

OT,

+1

Sycamore

I guess it depends on your world view. Our culture, our society, and our country is dying for lack of hearing right and wrong, absolute truth and untruth. It has been drinking the Kool aid of relative values for a half century now and the blood work is getting much worse. The patient is sick and getting sicker.

I have two adult daughters so I can role play here. As an earnestly "practicing" Christian, I read in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination to God. It has very clear words concerning this "lifestyle". There is no equivocating concerning this subject. If I were to learn this about either of my daughters and loving them as I do, I would engage them concerning their very serious moral position. At the same time I'd be exquisitely aware of some of my own sins that are just as abhorrent to God so would flee from taking any position of moral authority in doing so.

Thus, my love would not ebb nor would I banish them either physically or emotionally. While we can not judge hearts as God does, we can judge actions. We do all the time; I would judge the action but I would hope with a good deal of love.

Wouldn't change how I felt about my kids.

Good post

Well, if you truly believed in that God of the Bible, your preconceived notions would be those HE conceived. As the POTTER, HE has been known in times past "to take that tone" (if not those words) with us pots who differed with HIS notions. Though HE is forgiving and long suffering, there is a point beyond which that does not work out well.

Yea it can. Mostly because I don't spend time with people that don't think like me.


Travis

There you have it.

My youngest son "came out" when he was 17. I still love him but I cannot approve of his lifestyle.

Unconditional love is just that.

Ed

Love is first a choice, you choose to love them...or not.

If it's unconditional, you have chosen to love them regardless of whatever emotional whirlpools come.

The popular concept of "true love" is backwards...growth follows the choice, rather than movie version that it can be found.

Folks maintain relationship by standing on the past choices they have made after everything else has been washed away by the crisis.

I have a few friends and family who are gay... Althoght I may not agree with their lifestyle choices they are still my friends and family... and if ANYONE f'ck'd with them they'd be f'c'ing with me... Just my beliefs and choice... I'd NEVER turn my back on them just because I don't agree with their life choice... Just sayin'

Plenty of conditions on a real friendship. Being of like mind is certainly a condition of being a friend imo.

Have female friends, one my high school sweetheart, and relatives who are gay and it matters not to me. They are good people that would take care of me on a New York minute. Same would go for my children.

No.

No way an honest person could say their kid turning out a homo would not have an effect on them. It just goes so hard against the grain, smacks down any thought of grand kids, and makes you think where you went wrong.
Not saying the kid should be kicked out of a parent's heart or home, but it's unrealistic to say there would be no effect.

No doubt as to impact and effect, Sam. It's a comforting day when a dad sees his son bringing females over to the house.

For me, shunning a spouse is doable but not one of my children or best friends.

I'm grateful I've not been confronted with the dynamic. My wife has a 50 plus year old friend who is gay and she told us yesterday that her father hasn't spoken to her for over 20 years.
I found that remarkable. I tried to put myself into her father's shoes but they wouldn't fit.

At the same time, I understand Gunner's take on things. It's what makes for horse races, I guess.

Sure 'true' love can be conditional. I'll bet that Jeffery Dahmer's Mom saw him in a different light.
I think that the homosexual life style is a choice rather then a birth condition. Like the person who decides to live in the mountains, as native/mountain man, or decides to live in a commune, or some other less then optimal life choice. I'll not condem that choice nor will I get in the way of the consequences of those choices.

Jim

True love must be unconditional or else it is not love but some sort of a "prize" that must be won or kept by some act of the other person. Pure love, or agape love, is the love of God towards man.

Agape love does not mean freedom of punishment or consequences by the person loved, there are consequences but God loves us even while we're breaking His heart.

Ive only been around a few gay men, none that I can say I loved. One, a step uncle who I really never got to know. Because of his lifestyle, I kept my distance. Being honest, I think things would change, because I dont want to be around that type of thing.

That said, I did have a woman that I dated in school that after a failed marriage turned gay. Then bisexual. Now has come full circle and only likes men, again. We no longer talk because of some other issue that I spoke of here, but I never treated her any different. I asked myself why a couple times. And I cant answer that. And ive always had that double standard, treating gay men as filth yet gay/bisexual women as something to conquer. I no longer seek that lustful fantasy as I used to, long been fulfilled. But I still see the two on different planes. No love involved maybe? Who knows.

Deerwhacker, I agree with you on every point except that we sin all the time. For this to be true the Scripture that says "He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world" would have no meaning. In our goal to become more Christ like I believe that it is possible to go for quite some time without sinning. We are never totally free from our sin nature so long as we are alive but we are not slaves to sin once we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Think about it.

Wouldn't bother me, in fact I'd welcome it. My friend can now take my wife shoe shopping so I don't have to go....


How about a BEST friend that didn't honor his mother? A true friend that had an affair? A true friend that has seen a hot chick and lusted at her?

I'm pretty sure no one here would have a friend or family member they would talk to if 'picking' them was based on sin.


That said, much like anti-gun, anti-hunting, Obama types that I don't have anything in common with, I think I'd have a tough time with the in common thing with a gay friend.

I have been studying on this a spell, so my question is not all love conditional? There were some "conditions" that made you love them in the first place that likely varies from person to person, so there is probably some "condition" that will make you stop loving that person. Again what that condition is will likely vary from person. If there were not conditions to loving a person, then you would love everybody. miles

I likely could shun a child who, as a propensity, carried out hate on another but not one who simply loved differently than I do.

Family can be cull.

Yup,when someone is dead to me I have no problem breaking ties...
that course of action has nothing to do with ones sexual oriantaion

Agreed

"Normal" is a cycle on a washing machine. Your response to Bob's question will also serve as mine.

Some folks never learn to say "goodbye". In fact, the Dr. who was addressing his colleagues in his parting address as President of the American Psychiatrists Ass'n said "Our mental institutions are filled with people who never learned to say "goodbye".

Using that as criteria, you and I may be the only sane ones in this bunch!

Human beings are incapable of unconditional love. Even a mother's love is instinctual and the only instinct that can over ride the instinct for self preservation.

A little [presently] five year old girl taught me more about LOVE than all my other lessons combined.

Desi came into my life when she was 11 years old....... I married her mother.

She married and a few years later, Punkin was born. The wife and I kept her for the first year of her life since both her parents worked. She introduced me to "unselfish love".

I realized that the love I have for my biological children and grandchildren is tainted by pride, in the case of my grandchildren since they carry some of my genes, and responsibility in the case of my children.

I can just truly love Punkin for herself with no demands, hopes, or expectations on my part.

As a lawyer, Bob should know that no man can predict his actions with certainty in a hypothetical situation, but based on my history and inclinations, any of y'all who are queer can just invite yourself right out of my life.

Good question Bob.

I reckon it depends on how toxic they are to everyone else. I would have to say yes. Love is conditional.

I loved my mother for bringing me into the world but I lost all love for her as an individual.

Love is an opportunity that can be lost.

I think that you are using several different definitions in your idea of 'conditions'.

===========

I think I'd have to agree with that. I wish I would have included the description of "toxicity" 3 pages ago.

For me though, I don't know if I'd consider a child's choice as to who they love as toxic,should it not comport with how I feel it should be.

This thread has been an interesting learning experience.

These 'what if' threads are funny.

Yes, but doesn't the very idea of 'conditions' make it a variable? miles

Remember Bob, you only need to do what you feel/think is right concerning family and friends. After all, that is what true selfishness is about....

Human beings are incapable of unconditional love. Even a mother's love is instinctual and the only instinct that can over ride the instinct for self preservation.

A little [presently] five year old girl taught me more about LOVE than all my other lessons combined.

Desi came into my life when she was 11 years old....... I married her mother.

She married and a few years later, Punkin was born. The wife and I kept her for the first year of her life since both her parents worked. She introduced me to "unselfish love".
======

I get that. But, were she to come to you tomorrow with the proclamation of such a life change, do you change your reply?

No

No



Yes

I reckon that depends if Liberace's gonna be swimmin' in the creek with me.

With you or Liberace's dad?

I had a friend, a good one, that expected me to cover for his extra marital work.

Didn't happen, and now, whether angry or embarrassed, he doesn't correspond with me.

I had a problem with his actions, and he knew it, but it didn't become an issue until he expected me to be complicit.

That's where I draw the line.

I'll try to maintain any relationship under status quo until such time as I am asked to forego my personal ethics.

Family, friend, or bum on the street.

Maybe you can get some better answers here Bob.

http://www.gayoutdoors.org/cfforum/index.cfm

I never heard of that till now,Pat.

If it's a forum you founded, I can't love you as a friend any longer.

This is truth. When my son "came out" it caused everyone of those reactions and then some.

It has had an effect on our family and there is still some internal turmoil every time I see him with his partner because it goes against everything I believe in.

I won't support his lifestyle, but if he is sick or hurt or wants to share some joy in his life, I am there.

Ed

I could cop out by pointing out that she is only five and I'm seventy two, so that scenario is highly unlikely.

But, I won't. [keeping in mind what I said about answers to hypothetical questions]

The question becomes, could I devastate this child by condemning her?

No.

Much of what she knows of love, as an adult, will be because of her relationship with me as a child.

Am I willing to answer to the God that made me for introducing negativity into something I see as a gift from Him?

No.

ED...forum responses are easy until it's all right in front of your face, aren't they?

I respect your candor, Gene.

Well, I can't take credit for finding it, but the "Naked Places" forum is pretty good.

How could I shun such an awesome perv?

I frequently tell my children that I will always love them unconditionally. But that doesn't mean I won't punch you.



Travis

Unfortunately[to some] we found out that our niece[wifes sisters daughter] was a lesbian about the time her mother died after a long battle with cancer. She felt the need to inform her mother while she had the chance. I often suspected but her father confirmed to me privately in the days after the funeral as he just wanted to talk w/ someone about it. After some reflection, it really didn't matter to me. Hope[niece] was still Hope and I still love her unconditionally and I made that clear to her.

Amen. I could have abandoned my relationship with him when I first found out, but then, after significant processing, I realized that the greatest cause of my angst was the fact that I still loved him. If I had not, he would have been easy to walk away from.

Ed

No. I believe it was Shakespeare who said, "Love is not love which alters, when it alteration finds".

I don't believe he knew many of the people I have. J/K.

Seriously, if someone gives their love for certain reasons, why pull it away for others. It is perfectly legitimate that a relationship may not be able to continue due to changed circumstances, but why should that change love? Only for reasons of self and pride, it would seem to me.

Love and hate appear to be just an unfortunate event apart, for many. I take joy in having learned not to hate even those who might deserve it. Just as love can build you up, hate will tear you down.

"IMO, true love and true friendship can not be impacted by such a dynamic. For those who believe it can, please help me to understand how that irreparable void occurs."

Leaving the hypothetical question about homosexuality aside, just for a moment since it is a thought provoking question, I'll try to address the part I quoted:

There are those who love me because of the kind of person they are. "LOVE" is their default position with regard to others.

Others love me because of who I am. They don't love everybody.

Turning those observations toward myself, I have to admit that I belong in the second group. APATHY is my default position, I'm sorry to admit.

Once my "apathy wall" is breached and I feel concern for someone because of who they are, which is how I define "LOVE", it is hard to bring it back up when I've found that I was mistaken about "who they are". But it is what I must do. The alternative is to HATE them.

The "love" bestowed by those in the first group is largely theoretical in my opinion. Mother Teresa and her ilk are exceptions, but there's damn few of them and NONE are members here.

I define "love" by action. If you love someone, you do things for them. Praying for them makes one FEEL as if he has done something, but if he's hungry, it don't fill his belly.

Returning to the hypothetical question, what parent can be apathetic toward his own child? None can.

They must continue to love the homosexual child, or hate them.

But we CAN return to apathy where former friends are concerned.

And apathy, not hate, is the opposite of love.

To be honest Bob, I guess I won't really know until I'm put in that position. All I can attest to is how I hope that I'd respond...

I'm one of the unfortunate types that doesn't have any real life long friends as I've never been in one place very long. That makes it hard to develop solid long term relationships.

Even my military pards aren't as close as most military friendships turn out. I've never been with a unit for more than 2 years, and the turn over was intense. Just didn't get to know people on that level.

So, the only scenario that I have to go off of is my kids, and my 13 year old is girl crazy.

Love is a emotional state of mind.
Sometimes one can change their mind.

The best friend I have ever had in this life is my wife. I suspect it would be pretty devastating if she declared that from now on she was to be a practicing lesbian. I would definitely find it hard to love her the same as I do now.

My youngest daughter is married to a man who has a twin sister. The sister graduated High School and joined the Marines. She served two tours in Iraq and was severely wounded by an IED which detonated under the armored vehicle upon which she was manning a machine gun as a convoy escort.

This fine young woman got out of the service, got married, got pregnant, had an abortion, got divorced, and is now in a committed lesbian relationship.

I have to admit that I am not nearly as eager to wrap my arms around her and give her a hug as I was early in her married days.

Her parents and siblings, (with the exception of my daughter and SIL) totally shunned her for a couple years. They are now beginning to allow her and her "wife" into their lives on a limited basis.

My wife loves the girl like she were her own and gladly accepts her house mate as well.

For my wife, I am positive that lifestyle choice would have zero effect on Momma's relationship with her children. I am not as good as she is. I would not shun them, but I would have a serious problem holding them as dear as I now do.

I am not sure that my daughter's choices in life are any better than if she had become a lesbian. In the past fifteen years she has picked a succession of abusive alcoholic bums as her mates. I still love her and am desperately fond of the two girls produced by those unions.

Like some who have posted before, I also am wired a little differently. I have no problem culling family or other relationships.

When I discovered that my now deceased brother was in the habit of playing with 12 and 13 year old girls, I culled him from my life.
My sister, 365 days younger than I, grew up to have a personality completely offensive to me. I culled her from my life.
Girl friends? At the first sign they were not worthy of making my wife, I moved on and never looked back.
My cousin, shooting buddy, hunting partner? When he became a meth addict at the age of forty four, I moved on.


I never understood this concept. A man who would ask me to do something unlawful or possibly harmful to me or my family would not be much of a friend. Nor would I ask that of another.



I am not the Bible scholar that many here are. But I do remember that some sins were forgiven for the price of a few doves. Other sins demanded immediate death.



Since when is pedophilia a sin???????

Clear back to the time of Moses, Jews and more recently Christians have made a habit of marrying girls as young as twelve or thirteen. Often times more than one.

Nowhere have I ever seen an "age of consent" listed in the Bible.

On this point, I will be glad to stand with modern legislature.

Bob, this statement




REALLY surprises me��I find that impossible to understand??? Do you really value a friend more than a spouse??


I think unconditional love, among humans, is a myth��.no matter how much you love someone, there is ALWAYS something they could do that would change that feeling.

I had a similar conversation with a minister and his wife one time��his lesson was on unconditional love between spouses and I commented that it wasn't possible��.she took offense and said she had unconditional love for her husband��..so I asked her what would happen if her husband got busted for propositioning a male police officer��.she said she would divorce him in a heartbeat��I replied��well, there is your condition��..she shut up.


Could I walk away from a friend or child if I found out they were a practicing homosexual??? A friend would be no problem, a child would be more difficult, but I believe I could��..I could also walk away if they were drunks or drug addicts who refused help and were dragging others down with them.

That doesn't mean it wouldn't be painful.

BOB,i have a Niece that thinks she is gay.

She is trying it out with a friend from school that has some issues with being close to people.

I still love her but don't understand it.

I think that you choose to love or to not love.

Then again, I'm of the mindset that most emotions follow choices....

Without going back over all the posts on this thread, there are a couple of ideas presented that I liked, and probably define as much as possible for me, what my answer might be, IF the circumstance ever came and parked its rear-endish parts on my back step.

The thought about true love and unconditional love not always being about condoning certain behaviour, and not enabling certain behaviour rings very true. I can love my kids without condoning their errors in choices, and without enabling them to make other choices that would be wrong within my structure of beliefs.

The other thought I have is that there is a huge gap between love and hate -- not just one departure from one end or the other. I am completely capable of loving someone without liking them very much. I love who they are, and I dislike they way they behave. I do not hate them, per ce. I do not "like" their deeds.

A friend of mine, a guy a worked with, and who each of us has laid his bacon in the fire for the other on more than a few occasions, came to me one day and asked me if I ever wondered why he took 6 months off sick one time. I told him I figured if he wanted me to know, he'd tell me. He says, My oldest son just came out of the closet. It came as no surprise to me, as a matter of fact, I told him about 6 or 8 years before to start spending more time with the kid doing "manly stuff." His business took too much of his family life.

His wife defends her son's actions. I get that -- I had a mother too. My wife's take on it was about as good as anyone's I ever saw. She said, "Freddy's sin is no different than my sin (No, she's not a gear box). They both need to be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ. Amen! Sister Mary! My buddy couldn't handle the fact that HIS (he was a bit of a womanizer) son was a bunghole bandit. It hurt his pride. He loves his son. Good! He still has a hard time justifying his lifestyle, but he loves his son.

Where we part company on the deal is that he allows his son to bring his homo "lovers into his home. I would feel constrained to draw the line there, I think.

So, does unconditional love draw lines in the sand? Not the love, but the dislike of actions, the non-condoning of actions, the desire to take a stand against a reprehensible choice of life-style.

Sorry for rambling.

simple answer , is NO

A spouse would always be ahead of friends and children.

Same with me, but that's not what Bob posted��.just wondering if that is really what he meant??

Would not change the love I feel for a child; no. Disappointment for the fact that they're buying a false identity and potentially dooming themselves to a life of misery chasing something they weren't created to be? Most definitely. But change my love for and devotion to them? He!! No.

A friend? Same thing, though you worded the question differently asking, "would the friendship change?" To which I reply how could it NOT change? Would I abandon my relationship w/ them just for that alone? Probably not. But that is a lifestyle that typically comes with activities that don't thrill me with people who don't thrill me.

That's why agape love is unconditional. God loves because it is His nature to love. We are the blessed recipients of His love but some of us will keep Him at arms length when He really wants to hug us.

I honestly never knew how I would respond until a loved one confirmed that she is a lesbian. My love for her did not change one bit. Her lifestyle has absolutely no affect on my life.

I wanna be gay...just no touching other dudes. Ya'll is nasty.

Bob: Don't have any kids, don't need to think about it.

If my best friend said that to me, the friendship would not change.

Agree with your last statement.

pics tell another story entirely�..




just saying�.



XXXOXOOOXOXXX

You do look like a guy when you wear leopard.

Thanks!

When I accepted the death of Jesus Christ as the propitiation for my sin, I didn't have to get away from my old friends, they got away from me.

Can true love be conditional? Absolutely not!

I think he meant exactly what he said, and I agree with him.

Marriage is a unique personal relationship because you commit to the person AND the institution of marriage. The institution is what makes the Two into one. You don't become ONE with your kids or friends.

Once the marriage has deteriorated to the point it can't be considered as one, the commitment to the institution is gone and the commitment to the spouse goes with it.

In front of God, well for those of us that believe, not the Henry the VIII types.

Exactly�..and that's why I can't comprehend him saying he he could shun a spouse, but not his friend or his kid???

Wedding vows usually include the promise "til death do us part" ��.you don't make that promise to your child or your friend��can't see how you could blow off a commitment to a spouse easier than you could walk away from a relationship with a friend??

==================

I live my life in front of my brain and heart and how my parent's teachings molded them.

Something I don't believe in or have never seen couldn't possibly be the impetus for me doing the right things I'm capable of doing in this world.

In the grand scheme of things, as my world is concerned, I simply answer only to myself. No one else sleeps my conscious sleep,when I can have it.

Most psychiatrists say dysfunctional people find other dysfunctional people. What does that mean?

How many spouses have you had?

Back when I was single I tried being a lesbian. The girls didn't believe me. I think it was the mustache that put them off.

Jim

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Well rounded folks don't give a [bleep] what 3rd party quacks think, Michael.

I respect your opinion far more than some shrink I do not know.

===========

I did mean exactly what I said. A spouse,especially a 2nd spouse not the natural mom of a man's children, doesn't elevate to the level of blood children or life long friends I speak of in this thread. My wife of 14 years who I love dearly has not always been on the winning side of arguments with my male friends of 30 plus years. She's won and lost a few as it relates to my natural born son and our 3 step kids, as well.

That's just me, though. If I believed the answer was obvious and not subject to varied opinions, I wouldn't have posed the wonder to the membership.

All said, my tried and true male friends and my son have my unquestioned, unconditional love and loyalty...till I'm dead.

Well, I don't know.

But I do know I can't be the only one that thinks this whole thread is gay.

Of course true love is conditional. I try very hard to treat everyone with kindness and courtesy and even love, but there are plenty of people that I never will let in my home. My kids knew growing up that I would always love them, but if and when they didn't want to follow the rules about how we treated one another, or addictions or illegal activities, they could find other habitation.

I absolutely reserve the right to ban anyone from my home and family if I feel that they are a danger in any way to myself or my family. That applies to any of my family or friends.

Everyone should be treated fairly and with respect. No need to make homosexuals a special protected class of citizen. I don't care that you're gay.

Just don't wave your bedroom activities in my face and preach that your lifestyle is one I have to condone, support and shill for. Which bottom line is the final goal. Or at least every homosexual that I have talked to.

Henry...you are somewhat fence sitting.

If one of your kids said, "dad,I'm gay", how does your household rule take affect then?

And, as Mic Coleman who I greatly respect and others have pointed out for those who adhere to the teachings of a God, how can true love be conditional?

Time for a Winston Churchill story.

Some here may know he was a good friend of W. Somerset Maugham, the novelist, who was widely known during his lifetime to be homosexual. Not everyone approved of the friendship, and some were so bold as to advise Churchill to cut Maugham loose.

Churchill once replied to a critic: [Maugham] may be an old bugger, but he's never tried to bugger me.

That always cracks me up.

For humans, SOMETHING causes them to love someone.

So... Something can cause the love to go away.

Notice how people must "disown" their children, siblings, or parents, but not friends?

They must get rid of the "cause" of the love in the first place which was an accident of birth.

======

Tom...that's how I roll, as well.

And it took little reflection to feel this way.

My dad condemned homosexuality but he more condemned his children for being intolerant of that which didn't necessarily harm us.

It's OK for the GOP to live and let live.

True love is not TOLERANCE OF EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE! Which is what the media and everyone is doing their best to change the definition to.

I loved my kids enough to discipline and have high standards. I loved them enough to expect honesty and integrity from them. I loved them enough to expect hard work and treating those around them with common courtesy. True love has high expectations. To be trusted is more important than being loved.

Gay is just the current cause celeb. I have a lesbian cousin and she has never been treated any different by me or anyone in my household.

I still reserve the right to disagree. Though I firmly believe that in 20 years I will no longer have that right. Laws will have been enacted that unless my personal beliefs and religion believe what the Feds mandate I will no longer be able to work for any government entity. Whether that's a teacher, policeman or the janitor.

There have already been Canadian ministers arrested in their houses of worship for hate speech, because they verbally disagreed with homosexuality.

Jesus Christ, Henry...I was simply talking about our kids,not the next frikken millennium.

I can't speak for the other God follower's but what we call unconditional love the Greeks called Agape.

It's my understanding that there is only one being truly capable of genuine agape.





We all fail in living up to the standard of true love given here. For Christians, only God can perfectly love.

IMO, love is a choice. Every measure of it is based upon a behavior or action.

Think about it, why do you love some friends, and not others? Because you choose to.

You yourself even listed the condition for love in your life...



There was a condition for your commitment of love. They must be tried and true.

commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.� Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, �Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?� Jesus answered him, �If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father�s who sent me.


So, HAJ, how do you explain that last sentence?

To clarify, do you mean this sentence?

"And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me"

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly. Are you questioning how I explain that in light of the concept of the trinity or are you asking how it relates to the topic at hand?

I'll be glad to address either, I just am not clear on your exact question is all.

I also don't want to hijack Bob's thread, he has an interesting conversation going on here, so if it's the trinity question, I'd like to either PM you my thoughts or we can start another thread if it's okay with you.

Nice to see you pray! Now if twenty years is equal to 1000 years that really messes up history.

1Corinthians says "love never ends" so I guess I didn't love the first I married and will forever love the second. I guess also, I would continue to love a child or friend or relative I loved before the recognition of the fact. It would however, affect the relationship, HAJ.

Bob.

You are such a dumbass.

You know I mean that like a brother.

But you already answered your own phuqqeen question, which is the CORRECT answer. Anything these other jackasses want to add is just stirrin' the pot.

... oh, waitaminit... yer a lawyer, stirrin' the pot is what you do...

Ne' mind. As our great friend Bristoe says, it's only th' innanet.

Peace, my friend.

I agree. Relationships can be affected in numerous ways but we can still choose to love somebody in spite of those dynamics or even because of them.

What other people, including relatives, do is not a reflection on me. Nor is it my job to protect supposed adults from the consequences of their actions.
I get out of the way and let it happen.
Sure makes life simple.

Jim

One, for 33 years.

It would be a man of low character that would shun a loved one over such a revelation.

If one of my friends, my brothers, revealed to me a predilection to dabble in [bleep], I wouldn't love him any less.

Did someone Define "TRUE" love.

I was pretty sure there are multiple types of LOVE, so which one are we talking about.

Bob, if you really think this through about your Son there is no "conditional" love here. As a Christian or a Jew we love our children unconditionally.
You do not have to condone their actions or lifestyle or even their other life choices, but we love them for who they are. For they are children of God as we are.
Steve

True love ah yes and that's why all marriages last forever.

True is based on perceptions and definitions.

Both of which are subjective