This guy shouldnt be allowed to carry a cap gun and his fine upstanding fellow officers telling him "you done what you had to do" arent any better... POS's

http://bearingarms.com/innocent-man-down-a-law-enforcement-training-failure/

Well, at least it wasn't a busy street with cars driving by or anything like that.

That's a tough one.

Yep, the cop culture (reflected in their training nowadays) is that the cop's survival is the paramount consideration, therefore in applying lethal force they are taught not to hesitate once they sense any level of threat. That absence of hesitation is getting innocent folks killed.

Risk is part of the job of being a cop. The problems is their effort in training to remove risk. Since it can't actually be removed, being an unavoidable aspect of the job, the way they accomplish making the job less risky for the cops is by shifting the unavoidable risk to the public at large by shooting first and asking questions later.

Terrible

Yea he really "did what he had to do" didn,t he ?
Just because he didn,t bow to the officers Authority(if he even heard the officer)is not reason to be shot.
Yes the old man reached for something BUT it was not pointed at the officer ,nor was it identified as a weapon .
Officer just took it upon himself (whether out of fear or training)to start ripping off shots .
Bad situation for both ,especially The old man and his wife.

This is a hard one.

On one hand I can hear the officer weeping, and telling the others what happened or he thought happened. And I believe the officer was sincere. I don't for one second think he just wanted to shoot an old man, or was on a power trip.

There are plenty of bad cops, bad cop videos, etc. They're scum should be culled, not just fired.

This particular officer had a split second, at night to react to what looked to be some sort of long gun being grabbed from the truck bed. The old feller driving the truck made a very, very bad decision doing what he did. Bad, bad deal, but this cop is not one of the bad guys, at least in this particular incident.

Save the bashing for those who truly deserve it. Jumping on this one helps the cause of the bad ones. Burn them down, every time, not those who don't deserve it.

No, but he was cowardly. That's the training now, to be scared shi tless of regular folks. They train on courses where ordinary people (toddling old men, mothers with young children, etc.) suddenly pull a gun and shoot, whereas they used to train to shoot classic "bad guy" images pointing a gun at them.

'Ironically, the only gun control in 19th century England was the policy forbidding police to have arms while on duty.' ~ Don B. Kates, Jr.


We are a frustrating species! While we are the only one known with the ability to record and convey the lessons that we learn from our errors so that we might avoid repeating them. We still insist on wasting great blood and treasure on the same errors.

Yeah, the last range day I scored several shots on an old man silhouette, couple on a lady, and one head shot on a child silhouette.

Give me a break. Where exactly do you get your vast knowledge of law enforcement training? Seriously. I want to know.

Well trained, then, given modern cop targets.

They have interactive "shoot - don't shoot" real time computer simulators now that they train on. I've seen them in action. They present the cop with all sorts of situations where people you'd never expect to pull a gun suddenly do, and the cop scores by shooting these folks before they get off a shot.

Yep, grabbing his cane so he could stand up, did him in. All old men should die that way.

The company can call itself whatever it wants, but I defy you to come to this area and find a target even remotely resembling those. Plan on a long stay......

'Hawk, what agency was running your theoretical simulator. I ran through a full day last year on the new Sim Primex installed (note: they're an insurance carrier for municipalities, to my knowledge there isn't an agency around that has their own) . As near as I can figure, they programmed it do the "bad guy" was as sterotypical a BG as you could imagine. Curious where the one you "observed" was.

Our school districts down here have Law Enforcement Academies for high school students wishing to prepare for a career in law enforcement. They are taught by teachers who are active cops who present them with all the latest training. I've seen them use the simulator.

Had to know the dove eye would be all over this thread....like a moth to a flame...

Okay, so no agency of note. They exist in your AO though and you folks are allowing these (according to you) reprehensible scenarios to be brought in front of students. I would think parents would be up in arms. Surely you said something!

Or did you?

Sounds like your area has the cops it wants.......or the story is different than presented.

the dove eye instigates....

The parents are all proud of these kids, and the program. They have regular tournaments where they compete against other academies and bring home trophies. Parents are involved.

That's outstanding, sounds positive all around. That says to me that the scenarios aren't as nefarious as you alluded to.

I watched the video a number of times.How could anyone confuse an old man with a cane with danger.How can anyone be that stupid much less a LEO.At no point in the video did I see anything but an old man with a cane.

I didn't say they were nefarious. The people who are shot were pulling a weapon in an effort to shoot the cop. The problem is that this type of training programs the mind to think of everyone as a potential shooter, despite normal stereotypes, and to instinctively draw and shoot at the first sign of trouble, i.e., without hesitation, without going through natural filters like "That's an old man ... it's not likely he's a threat, so let me reevaluate this situation and make sure I have it right."

I would want to see the scenarios myself prior to taking that leap. I know what I observed, but I also know the designers. The fact is, the bulk of the "actors " were active/ex-leos.

Hell, the next day I spent 8+ hours shooting the schit out of "active shooters" who were also cops. Ive apparently been programmed to shoot cops........

Actually this piglet was one of the better marksman I've seen, he got off six shots and actually scored a hit, usually it's at least a 12 to 1 ratio. Thank God most of the [bleep] can't shoot.

Yeah, dumbphuck, because everyone who pulls a gun has a certain "look", right? Thinking only gang bangers, bikers, and scumbags in general are the only ones packing guns is a good way to get yourself killed. But you'd never know that because you couldn't do the job and can only guess. Let's hear the excuses again as to why, it's always good for a laugh.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3608773

Wish I could find the dash cam online.

Everyone IS a potential shooter. I challenge you to describe for all LEOs what EXACTLY every shooter looks like.

For what it's worth, I've never seen the targets posted earlier. I have seen the simulators. We used to have a FATS machine. It's not training you to look at everyone as a threat. It's training you to not assume a small pregnant female wouldn't be.

In other words, it's training you to identify the threat. That's the gun if you haven't guessed yet. Not the person.

We don't JUST do shoot or don't shoot scenarios. There is much more training in negotiations, mental health issues, etc. We get more training in non lethal situations than lethal.

Back to the video. It's sad. Period. But the cop obviously believed he was coming under attack. It really is that simple. Tragic results, but it's not a perdect world. If it were, cops wouldn't be necessary.

I don't believe I will convince you or anyone else. Guess I've said my piece.

I'm curious, why did the old man get out of the truck in the first place? I was always told to stay in the vehicle unless instructed otherwise. I guess so as not to get hit by oncoming traffic just as one example, and officer safety for another.

Do bullet proof vests protect against cane attacks? Should civilians be wearing bullet proof vests as well?

Whatever the reason, do it, or get shot.

the only prerequisite for a cop to shoot people now days is his balls shriveling up, sad. Please explain to me why he did what he HAD to do, instead of taking cover if he thought it was necessary, and assessing the situation. He should be charged with attempted murder, period.

Bulletproof? Where do I sign up?

Just do as directed. No sudden moves, and you'll be fine. If your old and deaf, not our problem.

Was that your academy training?

If LEO's would take a stand against that kind of behavior among their own things would change rather than getting worse by the day... All I ever see is excuses and wagon circling tho..

Yep, stay in the car with your hands on the steering wheel at 10 o' clock and 2 o' clock...or be prepared for the consequences. It is a dangerous country anymore.

Maybe we are different ages (I am 54)or just from different geographical regions but Iremember growing up and being told to get out of the vehicle.

Regardless, the old man was in the lights of the officer,there was nothing pointed at the officer and he did not identify that either it was in fact a gun " Really how many carry a uncased shotgun in the back of their truck going down the interstate? and it even appears as though the tailgate is open or missing !" or if he was really in a life threatening situation.
If the officer is so damn jittery and fearfull he shouldn,t have become an officer in the first place.

Damn I remember "Serve and Protect "
NOT "Harras and Intimidate " And then shoot.
NO he didn,t "do what he had to do "
He did what he did and should now be fired and have a lawsuit put against him.

The driver of the truck should have never gotten out of the truck and reached into the bed of the truck at night. It sucks but damn, thats just ignorant

He wasn't a very good sheep was he. If he had been your dad or grand dad, would you write "he was ignorant" on his grave stone; or just send the cop a thank you letter?

I won't blame a cop for getting a split second decision wrong. It's a credit to the profession they don't get those decisions wrong more often. God knows they have to make enough of them.

I blame a system that decided at leisure that it was reasonable to enforce what amounts to a penny ante tax stamp at gunpoint, on the side of the road, at night.

Is there one good reason this couldn't have been dealt with via citation through the mail a week later?

Pow--Freeze isn't a decision.

The troops in afghanistan have to show much more restrain in an actual war zone. Cops must not have rules of engagement.

Well put. Not to mention monetary (especially traffic) fines within the criminal justice system help to fuel the onerous police presence we enjoy in our suburbs today.

The guy should go up for manslaughter.

Pathetic.

This was posted weeks ago and it was a bad shoot then. Still is.

"Sarge, this old guy simply won't stay in his truck with his hands on the wheel. And he can't stand without his cane. Can I shoot him?"

I am pretty cynical of the police, but I really have a hard time believing the cop was thinking what you wrote.

And as much as I hate even bringing this up, was this in the south? I think the cop is black and with an old white man getting out of the truck and reaching for something might have escalated the officers decision. Obviously NOW the wrong decision. Perhaps this officer is better suited to work in the police station, not in the field.

Ya, brave people let the guy with the shotgun shoot first


Old guy gets out of the truck and reaches for long, dark object in truck bed, completely ignoring officer, takes it out and swings around.

We had an officer killed about 40 miles from were I sit under exactly similar circumstances a few years back, except in that case IIRC the old guy got out of the car with a Mini 14. Routine traffic stop, safe area, out of the blue.

I'll give the Cop a pass on this one. Sad deal all around, I hope he says in the profession.

JMHO,
Birdwatcher

Old guy gets out of the truck, reaches in the truck for a long object and sets it on the ground to lean on; doesn't hear the officer's commands over the highway traffic noise, and gets a clip sprayed at/in him.

This is a classic shoot/don't shoot decision and the LEO fails miserably. Every time I watch one of these guys unleash with a semi-auto, I miss the old wheel gun days and measured shooting.

I don't want to see one LEO killed in the line of duty. It is a tough profession, just like soldiering, and sometimes extremely hazardous. I hope this one gets out of the profession. I don't want him out there with a gun.

That cuts both ways, except that white on black racial animus and violence is history and / or leftist mythology and black on white is epidemic.



What better way to exercise such animus and not only get away with it but make the old 'crackers' pay you for it than in uniform and under the color of law.

Seriously? I don't think brother man was having flashbacks to Jim Crow days. This reminds me of when Clinton said he remembered black churches burning in Arkansas in his youth. Someone checked and discovered that nothing like that had happened since he was hatched.

And everyone of us has only a split second to determine if the cop that has us pulled over is about to shoot us or not. Shoot first? Run? What's an innocent person supposed to do, just stand there and get killed by Barney Fife?

But OK. The got all weepy and said he was sorry. Guess he just keeps his job and his pension and lives to kill another day.

I have always had plenty of respect for the law-men and the job they have to do,
But it's plain to see there is deffinatly something broke in law enforcement these days, this kinda crap is getting way out of hand.
I'm starting to feel there's more to fear from the cops than anybody.

The problem starts with DOJ's head jackass and works its way down.

That's been my view for a while now.

No, it started with the war on drugs and accelerated with the war on terror. Both phony justifications for increased police statism under the pretense of addressing threats.