I keep hearing about terrible things are..

I had to have an electrician come to the house to wire in a new outlet for my new stove. $80 hr.

Had to have a plumber come not long ago. $80hr.

Get my boat engine a tune up. $90 hr.

Have a welder weld anything out of aluminum. $80 hr.

Seems like the trades are the place to be?

$1200 to have a water heater installed. Although, I would up doing it myself with a contractor buddy at $40 an hour.

But yup I agree.

My company required me to charge $95 per hour plus one way mileage, but I sure didn't get anywhere near that much.
Truck and fuel costs, all the support people, and a bunch of other stuff had to be paid out of that.

Well let's see, of the $80 an hour the person preforming the work got paid 10 an hour, the government got between 8 and 10 an hour in payroll taxes, The rest went into overhead and a little profit for the owner.

Not a whole lot of money there when you break it down.

I'm a tradesman and can tell you that the actual workers only get paid a small piece of that pie. For instance, the company I work for charges $96/ hour for a service visit, but the employee might only get about $20/ hour plus very basic medical insurance. No optical or dental and no retirement or HSA, either.

Trades aren't a bad place to be for sure, but a guy isn't going to get rich doing it.

You forgot lawyers.

Hell, a lawyer will cost you $250/alleged hour.

The plumber is a bargain.

$80 an hour for a 8 hour work day.

$640 a day. Not a bad wage, if you ask me. Sure you have to pay taxes, but who doesn't? (ok, don't answer that)

Curious how much a .gov worker makes a day?

So, I'm curious what keeps a guy from branching out on his own, and charging a mere $60 an hour? You'd think people would be jumping at the chance to hire the guy?

Btw, all the guys I hired were independent. And when they ran for parts, which took a ridiculous amount of time, the clock was still ticking. I have a feeling I paid for a few coffee breaks.

Nope and neither do the owners from my experience.

Unfortunately thats the price of doing business to make a small profit...figure in labor,gas,vehicle maintance,insurance,workmans comp, advertising ect. and not much left

You were free to choose another contractor...free market and such.

Scott nailed it here:



So your numbers, corrected, are:




Anybody who runs a business will tell you that there is a HUGE difference between what's charged & what's made as profit.

HUGE.

Believe me, I'm not complaining. I knew exactly what was going to happen, before it happened.

BTW, in a remote town of 1200, on an island, in Alaska, you often can't choose another contractor. And they know it....(grin)

Amen to that!

Sounds like a business opportunity for you.

I'm talking averaging their corporate cost in.

Then learn how to do things yourself

It's funny how everybody rails on the .gov workers for how much they make, but if you point out that a plumber charges $80 an hour to unclog a toilet for an old lady, then it's game on. (grin)

I do most stuff myself. Stuff I needs to be up to code for home resale I'd rather just pay somebody to do. And no, I'm not complaining, just making an observation.

So you're telling me that a guy with a van and 10k in tools couldn't make a good wage charging $80 an hour?

It sure sounds like complaining

You think that is bad, last July I walked into an emergency room at a local hospital about 5:30 PM Friday afternoon for a blood clot in my leg. I got several test, MRI, etc. spent the night for observation, walked out around 2:30 PM Sat. afternoon with a couple prescriptions for meds.

Bill to the insurance company was over $20,000. So close to $1000 per hour average

Thats why its tough for a legitimate business to compete with a guy working out of the back of his pick up....but God forbid if some thing major goes wrong and he phuucks up your house cause he doesn't have insurance

My electrician charges $55 per hr. My plumber is $ 75 and I am $38- 42 per hr. I'm the General carpenter. Carpenters are a deal for some reason. Noone knows how I do it but I've never gone without paying a bill and never ran out of money. Plumbers are over paid. There isn't any more to it than carpentry. These are S.E. Wisconsin prices.

I estimate where I work. We figure that each guy in the shop total is about 2.5x what his actual hourly wage is. The rest of that goes into insurance, workers comp, unemployment etc...

Given those parameters - you're getting it cheap!

I live in a town with a metro pop of 200k, no island, lots of infrastructure and a low cost of living and 80 an hour for those guys would be a bargain.

Sounds to me like you picked the wrong profession

That's a good price for a general carpenter. Wish I could get you up here to redo the interior of my boat.

To answer your question, there are a number of reasons. Licensing, start up money, knowledge, confidence are some of the main reasons. Lots of guys work their whole career without learning how to estimate or manage jobs. Those aren't hard things to learn, but require someone willing to teach you and many owners aren't keen on teaching their employees enough to go into competition with them.

Personally, I'm very close to making the leap. I've stagnated at my current job and have a lot of frustration at how a bunch of trade ignorant paper pushers demand things be done. I'm pretty much topped out, wage-wise and need to be thinking seriously about retirement planning, something that isn't possible if I stay.

I have the knowledge and licensing, but not the $$$. My plan is to start small and avoid competition with my employer and see where it goes from there.

I'm curious, but can't a guy with a van get bonded and insurance? I understand that if you maintain a storefront, a gal at the front desk, etc that you are paying out the ass for things. Seems the way to go would be a van.

Nope, and in Alaska where I'm told the cost of living is high I'm surprised that's all he's charging.

So you're self employed. From that $80, subtract 15% for social security (self employment taxes) and another 20 to 30% for income taxes. Depending on what your trade is, you could have a shop to pay for or maybe a truck and fuel. You need to figure costs for tools and probably a bookkeeper or an accountant. You have health insurance to pay for and, unless you're a fool, some kind of retirement.

A former hunting partner of mine died about 5 years ago at 70. He was a chiropractor and still practicing. He didn't leave his wife hardly anything. He charged low rates because he wanted his services to be available to everyone. I told him many times to increase his rates a mere %$5/visit and put it into a retirement program. $5 wasn't going to bankrupt anyone and it would make for a decent retirement after 20 years or so. He never did it, though. Now his wife is paying the price.

Yeah, don't even get me started about that scam. If I had my way, every price would be listed on a menu, like when you went into MCD's. Then, you could make choices based on what you can afford. Not wait for the bill to show up. For what they charge to be in the hospital, I'd rather go sit in the outside in the parking lot, and have my wife wheel me in if something started to go wrong again.

Once you become legit the over head sky rockets and so does the cost of doing business and making a profit. Insurance and workmans comp is big$$$

Well, that's pretty much anybody who is self employed, or anybody working in general. I fit in the fisherman/farmer category.

Believe me, I think it's great they get $80 an hour. I was commenting on how good things are, that a plumber can demand such wages.

Things aren't that bad..

You gotta admit that it's funny. A person pays $80 an hour to have a $10 an hour employee show up and do work..(grin)

My forman makes $25 + benefits

Not really but that's the way it is.

Agreed. In my trade I've had to put in a number of years to qualify to take the state journeyman exam, then at least 2 more before being eligible to take the state Master's exam. On top of those tests I have to take and pass a state plumbing contractor's exam. All these tests cost money to take, then there are fees to pay for the actual license on a yearly or 3 year basis, depending on the license.

The fly-by-night operators duck a lot of these requirements and can work for less, but often doing shoddy work not having jobs inspected.

You are assuming that guy has a full book with no slowdown. And no operating costs. I have a good friend with a one man excavating business. He charges about $125 an hour. If he worked 60 hours a week he would consider himself lazy. I think he is lucky to clear $30/hr. at 40 hr. rate.

I can see excavating being an expensive business. Nothing cheap about buying/maintaining/running those machines.

So basically, it's because of gov regulation and taxes that the costs are $80 an hour?

The most city folk are out there the more they can charge.

I believe roofers pay 35% now for comp.

Calvin- I agree things are not nearly as bad as the doom and gloom crowd make them out to be. At least in regards to the economy.

Folks just have much different expectations these days. You constantly here the lament of the "middle class" from folks that are financed to the hilt living far beyond their means.

The fact is, people expect more and at a younger age and with less work put in.

The economy sucks. No getting around that fact

Prices will keep going up ... for lotsa reasons

Wow, Y'all are getting ripped off. Call Pedro's Anything For a Buck.

That and who really wants to be a plumber or electrician these days? All these kids want to do is play video games and live off daddy and the system. Disclaimer---I realize there are some good kids out there. Ours all work hard.

Calvin--you're luckey, in New Jersey the Mercury dealer charges $125/hour, most aren't even certified, please don't ask me how I know!

Sums it up... it's real bad in NY

I know a few electricians and plumbers, that do just that basically. They don't desire or need 100K a year in salary.

You do have a LOT of overhead folks don't think about. Advertising, insurance, taxes, time where you have to answer phones, deal with customers etc... but are not getting paid for that time. Bookeepers and so on.

But a few I know being an inspector, they don't work 40 a week all the time, hunt, fish etc... as they desire and make enough to pay their bills.

1250 to replace a 300 buck water heater gets to be nuts IMHO. Turn it off, drain it, haul it off, put new one in place, new service lines, maybe new valves... takes 2 hours maybe....

OTOH if I could have charged 500-600 for a deer head when I was trying to survive, instead of the market maybe bearing 300... I'd still be mounting, but with a grin on my face instead of day to day...

Sorry but you are both wrong. It is the cost and availability of 22 ammo...

I went to school for a while for taxidermy....you won't get rich doing that ...I tell my taxidermist he deserves every penny he charges

And inflation....

It seems that there are a lot of guys who can do good work wiring or plumbing but the number of them that can manage it as a business and manage their time, estimate jobs, keep a schedule, and all the other things a smoothly running business takes is a lot fewer.

Calvin is not complaining, rather he's saying the opportunity is there for a hard worker who is self-motivated to make a living wage in numerous trades. It's always been that way, but it takes somebody intelligent enough to run the business and willing to work hard all the time.

Wrong conclusion. These are skills we all need to have.

These are skills we all need to have.

What, you don't have these skills yet? I thought Alaskans knew everything!

I'm a government worker. Whats a skill set?

The amount of cluelessness about medical charges is laughable. Coupled with the fact that you are talking about your health. If you want to let things ride, be my guest but then when you are screwed and die, tell your family in no uncertain terms that they are not to file any sort of malpractice claims. And your beef is with the hospital, not the doctors. You would be shocked to know how little of that charge makes it to the doctor who actually saves your ass. Kind of like how little goes to the plumber who actually fixes your sink.

Hell, a lawyer will cost you $250/alleged hour.

The plumber is a bargain.


And there both full of [bleep]. Lol

The work doesn't start when the guy gets to your house ,first someone has to take your call , before that they had to advertise so you'd know who to call , then they drove out in a work vehicle that the insurance costs far more on than the same vehicle used for personal use.
The company will NOT fill each hour of an 8 hour day with an $80 charge .
If times are slow and competition is high and the trade guy has little or no work he will NOT get a check --a govt worker gets a check every week and health care and a retirement paid for by the people who come and work on your house. The guy who shows up will probably work until the day he dies paying taxes in so govt workers can retire with healthcare at age 40-50.

Don't forget a drive to their house to give a bid, Set up, and tear down after the job is completed.

Ignorance is bliss I suppose. As has been stated here on many threads, health care is not a single product you can buy. There is no such thing as a set price for a procedure. Everybody will require a certain set of things be done based on their needs. There is no way anyone could possibly know what those needs are until treatment starts. Personally, I think some should get the health care they demand. We wouldn't have to listen to their bitching for long.
It's funny to see people try to justify all the reasons a plumber should charge $80/hr or more, but yet can't get the concept of costs to run a hospital. All the many people required to be there and many millions of dollars worth of equipment and yet they only want to be charged for the one person who sees them.

i work in the oilfield but do flooring on my days off, i made $1900 weekend before last laying carpet and laminate.

How am I going to know how to stock my doctorin van?

Stock it with everything. Probably need two vans.

Dood; I am trying to keep medical treatments affordable

I figure a hack saw for surgery's

Duct tape for bandage

and some tequilla for sterilizer and anesthetic.

Maybe a flashlight or two for close up work.

How about paying for all of the extortion money to all of the insurances required to be in business.

I had a Construction Inspection company.

1 Mil. general liability ; 2 Mil. Errors and Omissions ; 1,000,000 for each vehicle that I drove onto the sites.
And that was before I left the house.

Then at the first of 2013 a client required me to bump up my insurance another 6 Mil.

The insurance company's need to be rained in as well as all of the Government Regulations.

Needles to say I do not have much of a business left

In that case duct tape and campho-phenique will take care of 99% of all problems. Time will take care of the other 1%.

That's one of the reasons jobs are leaving America.

I just installed my own water heater cost zero.
I wasn't going to hire an obama wank sucker.

Sears is having a sell on skill saw sets now.

Most employees have no idea what they cost their employer.

For an employee with benefits:

Wage: $10
Fica (employer portion) $0.75
Work comp $ 0.75
Medical ins. $ 7.00
Retirement (empl. share). $1.00
Vacation pay $1.00
Sick pay $0.50

Total DIRECT hourly costs $22. If they drive a truck, add vehicle expenses, plus commercial insurance rates.

Employing people is not for the timid...

So you branch out on your own. You have to do (think pay someone) to do all the required paperwork for a business by the federal government and the state. Then you have to have insurances for various forms of liability (since some of your customers are going to sue you, EVEN if you do good work all the time). If you hire other employees you have to have insurance for them, in case they get hurt on the job, and then any benefits you might pay. Health insurance for yourself (you could go without I suppose). Someone has to take all the calls (unless you have no business) and you have to have all the tools of the trade, transport, pay for gas.

And if someone doesn't like your work and sues you, guess what that costs. Or they just don't pay and you have to sue.

I think you will find that those rates are fairly good in the world we live in.

There are jobs around the house or on my vehicles that I could do but it makes more sense to hire them out even at $80 or whatever an hour.
By the time I go to town & get the parts & pieces & don't have the proper tools & try to make do with the tools I have & break something or forget something & have to go back to town to get the part I forgot.....

.....and then count MY time in the job.

I could easily have hours invested in a job that a professional could do in a hour or less , meanwhile I could have been doing something during those hours to make more money than the service cost.


Mike

In most cases; if you get an hourly rate for services, you'll save money over a bid.

that's why i can't work by the hr, I'd
never make any money, when i did work by the hr for a yr or when i was younger, i made my employer chits loads of money because i still worked like i would if i was getting paid by the job.

Not speaking for everybody, but for me, I get pissed about government "workers" because they're doing a job I don't care if it gets done, but I'm paying for anyway. If someone else needs a plumber or electrician, and pay for it themselves, I don't care what they charge.

I've never needed a tradesman to do anything around my house. The information for almost everything is available, and very few jobs require expensive tools that will only be used once. So, if I can do it, and the tools cost less than the labor rate, I'm doing it myself.

It's funny you feel that way. I work for the VA so I assume you don't care if we take care of veterans or not. Prior to the VA, I was a DA civilian taking care of active duty soldiers and their dependents. I'll assume you care the same for them. Before that I was active duty. Paid by the federal government. Them too?

It's funny you feel that way. I'm a disabled vet. I tried the VA. I pay for my own doctor now.

But in the context of the post I was replying to, he spoke of people complaining about how much govt "workers" make. I've never heard of anyone complaining about service members being overpaid. Except for that malcontent stripbuck something-or-other, and maybe a few others.

That's why I used quotes around workers. Those govt employees who are doing jobs that I don't care about, but I'm forced to pay for. If it were a job I cared about getting done, I would do it myself.

That's a big part of the 80 dollars.

As a Plumber, I wish I could afford a fishing charter in Alaska,

Frickkers are pricy.

im and electrician welder with nuclear structural certifications, as well as unlimited unescorted nuclear access (everywhere including the control room) I make 42.50/hr on the check, plus 16.18/hr into my retirement, as well as my healthcare paid for by the contractor. they charge 150/hr for me to be there because of he certs and quals that I posses. Its a damn good living, Id be fine with 30/hr on the check, i really could care less about that, as I can live just fine on 28-30/hr. But ill gut someone to keep the retirement. Im 30 and my favortie past time is looking at my fidelity account :-D. Trades are good and bad, very up and down. I only worked 8mos this year, but due to my wage i still made a middle class living.

Your company seems like they are billing you at a super low rate compared to what you make.

We bill more than $250/hour for a guy from the shop (a tacker) to go out to the plant and tack on a steel plate they broke during unloading and he might make $15-$20/hour and his biggest deal is he can pass a drug test and as a TWIC card lol.

doesnt everyone have a twic card ? lol Maybe thy charge more but i was told at one time it was 150/hr. for me to just be there (lot of standby). you'd be suprised how many people cant pass a drug test these days. Absolutely rediculous.

I don't have a TWIC card even tho it's required now. When I found out that TWIC card holders can escort up to 4 non holders I just started asking for someone to sign the escort sheet.

I'm not suprised how many people can't pass a drug test. The largest industry here is chemical plants and refineries and the associated contractors. The number one thing that keeps people from having a decent to great job is passing a drug test.

A self employed tradesman has to pay all expenses insurance and such.. 80/ hr is actually pretty reasonable.. You could no doubt get an electrition for 15/hr and your house would probbly burn down..

id love to find a decent job down south lol, but everyone i check on wants to pay me 18/hr with no benefits. The only good think about illinois is the money i make vs Cost of living. I literally HATE everything else about this state.

The shop next to ours has nuclear welders for the pipe side of the company. I'm not sure what they pay.

Our shop patys more than the average for the region I believe (from what the boss says, what the office guys make, and the fact that the average length of time at work there is currently 22 years and I'm the youngest at age 43 in the office), but it comes mostly from the time frame not the actual work. We're basically open 24/7 and can do it RIGHT NOW. Last week we even looked into have some plate cut in Michigan so it could fit onto a charter airplane to fly to us so we could start that day. Instead we hired a semi with 3 drivers to drive straight thru to the next day.

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but our company figures it cost them 2.5x a guys wage just to work here in the shop.

$80/hr is cheap for an electrician. In Anchorage, I was billed out at $120, and none of my customers complained. But yes, the trades are a good place to be right now.

A good general rule of thumb (at least for skilled trades), is that the employee only makes about 30% of what the client pays.

I didn't see anything on that list that I pay for now .....

"How am I going to know how to stock my doctorin van?"

All you need is about 12 more years of schooling.

as an inspector I don't make as much as the plumbers around here.

But I've yet to find a charter I couldn't afford. Probably are a lot out there though. But can always afford a trip or two here and there.

SALARY TABLE 2012-General Schedule for Federal Employees

http://archive.opm.gov/oca/12tables/html/gs.asp

GS- 4/5 usually requires college degree (B.A. or B.S.)
GS- 7/9 usually requires a master degree or being hired at GS 5 and promoted to 7 or hired at a GS-7 with years of experience and a master's degree (or a Ph.D.)

Some positions are special classifications - physicians, public health,attorneys, some engineers, scientists and information technology specialists etc.

Raises are only after three years of service, are only every other year, and only if by merit (i.e performance based)and the federal budget allows for salary adjustments (salaries were frozen from 2010 through 2013)

Promotions are also merit based and are limited and most positions have a ceiling on the GS rating for the position based on experience,required skills, knowledge, and ability (and maybe attitude)usually position descriptions will either top-out at GS-10 or GS-12

Above Grade 14 are rare and approved in Washington

Grade 16 basically Washington D.C. based usually require Senate Confirmation to be hired

Not even close to a logical comparison. Government workers produce absolutely nothing of real economic value. They are a drain on the economy SQUARED: first in the fact that they're paid w/ tax dollars, and then in the fact that by government's nature, their "job" is to impede or stop productive economic activity.

Hell, a lawyer will cost you $250/alleged hour.
=======

A first year lawyer, maybe.

No you're not.

Is that taking into consideration his contractual breaks. With a 4 hour minimum?

I will remember that next time 911 is dialed. Fire/EMS/LEO are actually impeding the situation and wasting my money.

No offense rost, but things went over your head so low and so loud I can't believe you missed it,

Let me set the stage for ya,

Calvin, the Charter Captain in Alaska, was commenting on Plumbers, and Plumbers wages/overhead, and yet Calvin apparently knows little about Plumbers or the costs associated with the business,,,,

Enter Ken, the Smartass Plumber in Wisconsin, who makes a funny about the cost of fishing charters (RE:Calvin) in Alaska, as if I have a clue what it cost's to operate a Commercial vessel in AK.

You savy this time?

Next time you hear a "woosh", look up, it might be an answer.

At least you can watch the electrician or plumber earn his $80+ an hour........the lawyer can bone you all day long with no watch dog

Nope. Didn't miss it. You were just being the typical smart azz you are.

Point is you afford what you need and want. You can afford the fishing trip. He can afford the water heater.

Better than CEO wages of most big company? I retired (37 years)as a electric lineman and made $42 bucks per hour.Is that to high of a wage?I think not when your up a 150ft transmission tower in the middle of the night.

Again, right over your head, Don't start a thread complaining about the operating cost of a business you're not familiar with, and then expect sympathy,

And your point about "afford", Wrong again.

I, and Calvin, could "afford" a $4,000 Water heater, That doesn't mean we would pay that .

Regarding your " typical smartass comment", Find your own material.

Rarely do honest service people get 8hrs chargeable in a 8hr day

This thread makes it very apparent that so many are ignorant to the operation of a business and the product that said business produces and sells. It is damn expensive to operate a business of any kind, and many are completely oblivious to costs associated with operating.

A service charge of $80/hr is fair as fair can be when you get down to the breakdown of what it is comprised of. Those costs have been mentioned already, and bottom line is if you can't afford it, or feel like bitching about, then either suck it up and pay for it, or , man up and learn how to do the [bleep] yourself.

Didn't you go on a guided sheep hunt? I'm sure you could afford a charter.

BTW, many of my clients are construction workers, electricians, plumbers, road builders, etc. They know how to have a hell of a time.

In fact, one of my most long time groups are a group of guys who deal with apartments and handle all the renters. Boy do they have some stories.

Really? You do realize that many .gov jobs actually involve some pretty technical skills, right?

What's honesty got to do with it?

Sure I went on a sheep hunt, couple of them in fact,

But I never started a thread anywhere implying the Outfitter didn't deserve his 15 grand,

How the hell do I know what the Super Cub costs? Repairs, Insurance, Compensation for the Guides, yada yada.......

Granted there are clear exceptions to the rule outlined above, but by and large it is a rule none the less. You can rely upon the exception to support your argument, but it's a weak support.

I can't speak for efw, Rost, but when I think of government workers, I think of pencil pushers who manufacture red tape, not the guys with the red lights on their vehicles. Folks in the emergency services obviously provide a needed service.

I'm betting that Eric feels the same.

I'm a tradesman who owns my own business. When folks complain about rates, I simply ask them 'how much should it cost?'

It's always funny to hear the answers.....

It's still flying over heads.....
TFF.




Employees are getting paid whether they are billing $80 per or $0.
As stated, you can't bill 8 hours everyday, but they get paid for 8 hours.
Calvin has to "overcharge" for his charter because he has months of no charters.
He lives off the "excess" during no work periods.
The plumber's employer is doing the same thing.
His fixed costs never go away.

Yes, but you rented the use of the hospital for the night. Expensive place to run. Ever price an MRI machine?

Lots of government 'pencil' pushers involved in the making of this. Seen lots of 'pencil' pushers work 16 hour days, right along side the guys in blue making sure everything worked.