Ok, so a friend of our family is going thru a tough situation right now. They committed & were convicted of a crime. Although not violent, because of the nature of it, it was splashed all over local and state papers, and was kept front page here for an unusually long time. As such, this person cannot get help of ANY type here, save a small amount from our church, and handouts from the ex. amazing that in this day and age, a person worries DAILY about getting just two meals per day, not to mention the other very basic things of life.

So my question is, really, SERIOUSLY, when is this person forgiven? Not by Jesus, but by society? When they are dead? When they are starved to nothing, and then dead? When they become so desperate that they commit a crime, and then become prisoners / de-facto wards of the state?

Really would like some serious answers to this, thanks

True friendship doesn't ever require forgiveness.

Sounds like a problem with some people in the community. They will not forgive this person no matter what.

Forgiveness is a personal matter.......not a group one.

You are talking about earning peoples trust.Thats a hard one.Long time.

I wish I could help.

I struggle often with the difference between forgiveness and forgetfulness. I am able to forgive, but I admit to having trouble with forgetfulness.

I realize that your family's friend is human. I am human as well.

It is my hope that he soon sees an easier road, and that the people in your community find the wisdom to be better than I am.

Sorry I cannot give you a better answer.
CT

Are they doing jail time?

I'd have to know more specifics of the actual crime and conviction before even venturing a guess. If it's a non-violent, non person-to-person crime, I'm far more likely to forgive and forget. Even at that, if it involved taking someone's livelihood or bilking someone out of their life savings, not so much.

It must not be something real petty, or odds are you would've mentioned it, and odds are it wouldn't have been/remained headline news.

Jesus taught in parables. They have relevance to spiritual people and are nothing but stories to anyone else. When he taught the adulteress he spoke to her and not the masses. When he had finished they were alone and she was sent on her way to live her life without condemnation provided she understood his teachings.

We could all learn a lesson from this, but sadly, it is sometimes easier to be critical than forgiving. There s a higher law, we need to remember that and respect one another's dignity and hope for the same consideration when we fail...

Tell that to the guy I used to work with who was best friends with this [bleep], even stood by his side at the first press conference when she was still considered a "missing and endangered person".

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/family/mark_hacking/index.html

They tore apart the Salt Lake Landfill with heavy equipment searching for her body, which they eventually found and determined she was pregnant. It hit the media a while after the sick [bleep] had been in prison that he was going by the nickname "dozer" and had a tattoo of a bulldozer put on his back. Forgiveness, nah.

+1

SAGE advice.

Your getting the definition of forgiveness wrong I think.

I can forgive someone of a trespass, but I don't ever have to trust him again.

For example, if I let someone babysit my kids and they moleste them somehow, that's a trespass against them and my whole family.

Now (assuming I don't kill them right away) I might forgive them in my heart. Meaning I won't hunt them down and string them up. And I won't wish them ill will of any kind.

But do ya think I would, or should, allow them to babysit again?

I'm sorry for the situation your friend is in! I sure can understand it though! I've been disabled for quite some time, not enough according to Uncle Sam for disability and I sure can't work! After almost 10 years of no income, I have nothing at all left! I can understand completely having no options left and wondering if crime might be the only way out! I'm lucky though in a way since I'm way to feeble to be a criminal and have no wife or kids to worry about! If I had I may have done something desperate long ago!

If your friend committed a felony I'm afraid it's going to follow him the rest of his days! Even if it wasn't a felony the community will never forget and he'll always be that guy that ....(whatever he did)!
When your really down and out, prison doesn't sound all that bad! 3 meals a day, a bunk, a roof over your head and heat in the winter! Some of us can't get all that even after working all their lives!

Bad things happen to us all but what really matters is how we deal with it! Maybe after while, if your friend is healthy and willing maybe he can start to do some kind of community service and if he gets back on his feet maybe helping others to show all that he's not the crook folks think he is!

BUT sometimes communities never forget or forgive! If that's the case he may want to move on and start over elsewhere!

I tell ya all this not for a boo hoo woo is me but to show ya that any of us could be in that exact situation at almost any time!

I hope you can help your friend and I hope it doesn't come back to bite ya in the butt!

When they stop gouging 22 ammo in the classified's

The answer is never and it is best to go make a new start elsewhere.

Unless they are a kiddy-fiddler in which case they should just shut their mouth and suffer.

Well it depends on you this person is and what he or she did I suppose. If its just a local thing, then maybe a compete break and move someplace else and start over might be the best thing to do. A felony conviction that going to make life difficult no matter were he or she ends up. In time if the record can be expunged then it might be something to look at.

iambrb---as you know I'm also located in the upstate. PM if there's something I can assist with.

Especially, with job assistance.

David

Earning trust sometimes can be tough. But to lose it and then attempt to regain it is an entire different kettle of fish.

What kind of help does this person need? Is this person unable to work? Is it impossible to get a job because of the past offence? Possibly a move is in order.

if he is getting help from the church get a recomendation from the Pastor to a church in a new town where a member may be able to hire him with the understanding that there is a 30-60-90- day or what ever conditional period so that a trust can be built and the man can get some security and work satisfaction , takes time to build a trust but he'll die before he gets it where he is

I strongly disagree. True friendship means that forgiveness is rapidly and seriously given, not ignored. Lack of forgiveness has destroyed many a true friendship.

I understand your slant, completely. What I was trying to articulate is that with true friendship, nothing could happen which required forgiveness.

The formula is Contrition times Time (C x T = F) equals public forgiveness. KInda silly, but it is what I see.

There may be no more forgiving culture in the world than ours, but open contrition and time for healing are a must. Think about our relationships with Japan and Germany.

Has anyone noticed what has happened in Korea over the ferry tragedy? Forgiveness does not appear to be anything to be personally expected. The principal hanged himself and the PM is offering to resign.

No. family had to sell possessions to pay the debt required, it was swindling. Was felony level though

So he is a thief...never is the answer for that.

Thanks Shrap. Should have taken you up on that Thanksgiving dinner I said I was going to crash some years ago, but the commute from SC was a bit long.

Seriously, have really been pondering this. In my deepening walk with Christ, I am finding myself seriously thinking about addict recovery or prison ministry, with strong leanings towards the latter. The advice given here by others as to forgiveness is sage, would really like to hear more (an not saying that to keep the thread going, I promise!)

But things do happen, often unintentionally. We're human and humans screw up, even with their friends.

One very destructive example was the infamous quote from 'Love Story' - 'love means never having to say you're sorry'. I wonder how many marriages were destroyed because people actually believed that crap.

You get this one.A friend will not only not hurt you but will get hurt so you dont.

It sounds to me like it's time for the chap to just leave town and get a fresh start.

When they are convinced he has repented.Not a minute sooner.

But things do happen, often unintentionally. We're human and humans screw up, even with their friends.
===============

Saying I'm sorry for whatever reason is one thing but,to me, seeking forgiveness is a level of confession well above that.

Seeking forgiveness should never happen with one considered a true friend.

There's your problem. There are few things humans are less likely to forget and that is thievery using trust to accomplish.

And it's not forgiveness he's seeking. It that he wants the community at large to forget. Or at least give a second chance. Different things

The first step in deserving and receiving forgiveness is true repentance. You do not mention anything that equates to that in your post. Has he confessed the crime? Is he truly sorry for committing the crime? (Being sorry you were caught does not count). Has he changed his behavior? Has he tried to make restitution? Until those things happen, forgiveness will surely elude him.

I do not forgive or forget when a knowing person purposely does wrong, especially if it affects others or is out of greed.

Gunner

A thief was forgivin on a cross right next to Christ,we some times forget That Christ is the answer and everything else is

just a bandaid.

Bob

I agree.

Forgiveness and trust are two different things.

Just an FYI.


Travis

As there are peeps on here that live in this area, I just cannot/will not say what happened enuff to figure any of it out, suffice to say the individual took money over time, and that can add up, and trust me, it did. restitution, the term I could not come up with earlier, completely wiped them out. This person has a degree from a prestigious Southeastern school, and is multi-lingual....and Mcdonalds will not hire them. Wal-mart 3rd shift stock either, they tried. You can only handout fish for so long, and it sure can be hard to give a fishing pole when society keeps breaking the pole!

To the individuals that stated move and make a new start, that might at first seem to make sense, but the issue is their only familial support network is here and a minor child is involved, so being able to move is not as easy as at first perceived.

That makes no sense. McDonalds may not hire him to manage a location, but they'll hire him to cook fries.

He can find a job. It just may not be the job he wants.



Travis

A whole lot easier said than done. Especially, if one is confined to quarters due to a felony court ruling. And of course the family ties might be all the person in question has, which matters greatly. Especially, in the South.

You need money to live. That's priority #1, always and forever.



Travis

Big time YUP!

I'd advise an individual to correct that. Quick.



Travis

Trav, I agree it makes no sense, but at the McDonalds in this area, being convicted of a money-handling crime here in SC means you are skeeee-rewed with them, which is odd, since they do hire out of 2 major prisons in the area...go figure

Can't argue with that either.

Well then tell him to try Taco Bell, or a factory, or a job placement center (they've seen it all) or tell him to sell weed under a viaduct.

Do something. Even if it's wrong. Do something.



Travis

Who needs forgiveness. The shallow people of today's society will forget this person's sins or humilation rather quickly.

Our society is me-first, apathetic, agoraphobic, complacent and just too lazy to remember to not grant forgiveness. Hell, they've forgotten 911.

Only a super-hero dickweed 'Christian' would harbor a lasting grudge of proportions large enough to stymie man's resolve to get on with his life. Unless you got some bitch trying to "cindy sheehan" a brotha and keep him down.

Depends on the situation and the crime.

For instance...

I have a sibling that is in deep kimchee for committing and trying to commit very heinous crimes.

Do I forgive him? Of course.

However, I understand that he is a sociopath and some things are unlikely to change. My concern is for his needs... he needs to be out of society and he needs a lot therapy to even have a slim chance of being healthy.

I had a superior call me that. I had to google it.

Not very complimentary.



Travis

I know folks in this area who landed jobs with what appear to be more severe rulings than your buddy. Are you looking to attain community forgiveness for this person or a new beginning/restart? Two entirely different objectives.

Again, I'm willing to assist as I have done in the past with others. In fact, I'm even helping (with a certain other Fire good guy) a couple of folks to expunge their bad history. But community forgiveness is up to he or she.

Hey byc, thanks, I will PM you shortly related tot his and some other stuff too. FWIW, they was a restart, not community forgiveness

\\

No it's not.

He nails 8 of the top ten indicators.

Sure is able to fool a lot of folks, some for years

My fundamentalist bible thumping neighbor hasn't forgiven a soul in her life and is quick to scoff at catholics going to confession but ain't askeered to be "born again" when her transgressions become known.

Hope it comes to a just ending for your families friend.

Denny.

Pffft!!!!

McDonalds??? Screw that.

If i was a felon, I would get in with a roofing crew, block layers, land scapers.... Along that line.

In just a few months, a with a ladder and a pickup truck could strike out on his own, knock neighborhood doors and sell gutter cleanings, ventilation jobs, roof patches,minor exterior painting work.

Mthfkers are lazy. They will pay a handyman to do all these things.
$200-300 a day easily for 4-6 hours work. Almost no overhead.

Hell any moron can cut and sell firewood. Make $200 a day cutting and delivering that chit.

Fugga a bunch of burger flippin for some POS GED NOO sassy mouf idiot shift manager at mickey dees

I agree. Jobs like roofing, lawn care, etc. Lots of money to be made.



Travis

I think the hardest part for someone trying to restart is living with the scrutiny they will be under at work and in life in general if it is a smaller community and being able to come out on top.

I am not sure that most of us would be able to be squeaky clean under such scrutiny.

I work with ex-offenders all the time.

"Society" will never forgive an ex-offender, because ex-offenders are one of a politician's favorite horses to ride into office. An ex-offender somewhere will re-offend, and a politician will say, "We've got to keep these scum in prison longer to make sure this never happens again." That's a completely logic-free argument, of course, but politicians don't need to make logical arguments, only emotional ones.

A politician who rides rich people ("...need to pay their fair share!") into office finds out that rich people have a lot of political power. A politician who rides old people into office finds out that old people have a lot of political power. But a politician who rides criminals into office discovers that criminals can't vote, so it's a consequence-free situation.

Stupid arguments, inconsistent arguments, false arguments, doesn't matter: as long as it makes prisoners the bad guys, nobody is going to stick up for them, and it's real easy to make folks believe that if a criminal was bad in one way at one time, he's bad in all ways at all times. (For example, there are probably a bunch of folks right here on the Campfire who believe that, on the basis of no direct experience, just emotional propaganda from politicians and their media lackeys.)

It could be argued that this is an unjust situation, but regardless of how that argument turns out, the fact of the matter is that it's the way things are, and the way things are is what we have to deal with in real life. Whining about it won't help; spending a lot of time designing ways for other people to change their thinking won't help. One must play the hand one is dealt.

My experience with ex-offenders is that their success rate is abysmally low unless they get support on the outside--and not government or government-funded support. The government can't do it--and I'm not talking here about government incompetence or government corruption or even government indifference. I'm saying that the way government programs must by law be set up, they're necessarily ineffective or counterproductive when it comes to support for ex-offenders.

So...I'd recommend that you find a charitable organization that ministers especially to ex-offenders to get your friend hooked up with. Find a place that has a rule against giving "material support" to ex-offenders (that is, money, clothing, housing, etc.), but will do things like counseling, job-search assistance, mentoring, and accountability grouping.

I'd further recommend that you avoid giving your friend material support, just as a non-personal matter of practice. It can be really really tempting, but it's a very quick way to get conned out of all your resources and have important relationships destroyed. Offer a listening ear, wise advice, and an open heart, not money.

Maybe some irregular transportation (that is, to job interviews but not regularly to work), or even some temporary shelter. Temporary! Have him sleep on the couch or on the floor, and make him tear down his bedding every morning and set it up again every night. An occasional meal, if it's appropriate. But nothing regular, and no money under any circumstances.

On the dark side, there's the fact that your friend will need to look for a job in a completely different manner than he's used to, because almost nobody will hire an ex-offender, and--especially if he used to be white-collar--he'll probably have to enter an entirely new line of work.

On the bright side is the fact that there are a few employers out there who recognize that the right ex-offender can make an excellent employee, because 1) he's grateful to have the opportunity of a job, 2) he knows that if he gets fired he's unlikely to find another job, and 3) he'll work harder for less money than a non-ex-offender.

Good luck to you and your friend.

This is quite a bit different from how it sounded at first! Anyone can get in a spot and some might break the law to get out of it but this now sounds like these folks had everything going for them. Prestigious Southeastern schools aren't cheap and it sounds like they had family that would help if they needed it! Sounds to me like this is just greed pure and simple! A silver spoon child that got caught!! Hell he ought to get into politics! They reward criminals with promotions!

Kinda pisses me off now that I told ya my story! I thought it would help someone who'd been crushed by life but it turns out to be a silver spoon that got caught! Good luck with your quest but I'll bet he'll be stealing again before long!

First this person needs a job, any job! Looking for handouts won't help people to forgive. All they will see is someone still trying to get something for nothing (thief).

Second this person needs to be in a good church every time the doors are opened. Let the community see repentance and that they are trying to be a better person. Salvation and repentance would be first but that's a subject in itself.

Third this person needs to be giving to the community in every way possible. In effect sowing seeds for a harvest of good will. Mow some grass for free. Pick up trash off the street. In general just be a blessing to anyone and everyone possible. When good seeds are sown they will produce a good harvest.

I like your use of the term "ex-offenders". I especially like the parts I put in bold, which is pretty much exactly what I'd expect from a prison bible-thumper. Do you have any idea what the nationwide recidivism rate is for felons? How about in your own state?

I hate it when The Man keeps a brutha down, who is just trying to better himself.

This in a big time way!!!!

Wouldn't expect anything else from you. Thanks for not disappointing me.


Of course I do. I probably know them better than you do. For example, do you know what kind of a felon is most likely to re-offend? Least likely? It's not only nothing like what the media claims, it's also interestingly consistent.

But it's irrelevant. Recidivism rates are averages, and it's the government that deals in averages. I don't deal in averages, I deal in individuals. Sounds like the OP is interested in an individual as well.

Was the word megalomaniac used in the same assessment?

Maybe I missed it, but I don' recall you saying anything about how this person behaved when he was caught or the circumstances that led to the theft.

I think that people can be very understanding about someone in a bind stealing to feed his family or keep their home, but if the theft was motivated by sheer greed, then not so much.

Was this person contrite and cooperate with the authorities? Did he personally apologize to the people he stole from? The attitude of an offender has a tremendous effect on how people view the offense.

The victims and friends of this person may well forgive the offense, for personal peace, if nothing else, but it's very unlikely that he will ever be trusted again and should probably, as others suggested, try to make a living independently and rebuild his reputation by honest work and community service.

Some things should not be forgotten.

Of course you don't like those statistics. It's to daunting to think of a work product with a 95% failure rate.

Or they worked the streets for 17 years and kept investigating crimes that led to the same offenders time and time again. The only time they weren't offending the general public was when they were in jail or prison. Once in jail or prison many continued to victimize their fellow inmates.

I will never forgive Hilary and Tyrant Obama for their betrayal and murder (by depraved indifference) of our people in Benghazi. Or for their lying to the families of their victims and the country after the attack.

I will never forgive Tyrant Obama the Lying Betrayer for his destruction of our country, his lies and his violations of our constitution.

a person who is loved by someone is never forgiven

Aha! You see, you're dealing in individuals now too, but on the other end.

Yes, there are individuals who are definitely going to re-offend and re-offend and re-offend, because either they really don't care whether they're in prison or not, or they actually prefer prison because life is better for them there than it is on the outside. There are a lot of people like that.

Those people I wouldn't even consider trying to get into a job, an apartment, or anything else, both because it would be a waste of time and because it would damage or destroy my reputation with the employers and landlords who by now believe I know what I'm talking about when I recommend somebody to them.

I'm interested in the folks who are going to do everything they possibly can to stay out of prison--something which turns out to be much more difficult in the real world than perhaps you think it is. And just as you've developed a sense that says, "I dunno why they even let him out, that one's going to be right back in before the end of the week," I've developed a sense that says, "You should take a closer look at this one: he might be serious." Unlike the government's, my resources are limited, and I don't spend them where they're obviously going to be wasted.

An analogy: you've heard that 50% of marriages end in divorce, yes? But have you also heard that 70% of first marriages last until the death of one spouse? It's true. How can that be? It's because some people screw it up over and over and bring the average down for everybody. It's the same for recidivism.

I have zero tolerance for someone that pucks up and commits a felony. Family, friend or acquaintance. Zero. Life's too short to waste time on them when you can be spending it with someone worthy. Done.

That about sums it up for me too.

Same/same here

This is quite a bit different from how it sounded at first! Anyone can get in a spot and some might break the law to get out of it but this now sounds like these folks had everything going for them. Prestigious Southeastern schools aren't cheap and it sounds like they had family that would help if they needed it! Sounds to me like this is just greed pure and simple! A silver spoon child that got caught!! Hell he ought to get into politics! They reward criminals with promotions!


Kinda pisses me off now that I told ya my story! I thought it would help someone who'd been crushed by life but it turns out to be a silver spoon that got caught! Good luck with your quest but I'll bet he'll be stealing again before long! [/quote]

Actually Sir, it is not, and I thank you for the story, honestly. If I tell much more than I have, then a simple goggle search will figger it out, you guys have to trust me there is a very good reason this person cannot get a job say 'roofin', as it is known here, but that is not to say that they cannot get a blue collar / manual labor job. Lack of support exterior to our area limits travel options to some degree. Child custody laws here are pretty strict too, again in certain ways limiting what they can do as far as travel or work times/shifts. I can assure and promise you that it is not related to laziness or greed. Just because they were well educated does not by any means mean that they have ever had a silver spoon

See, a bunch of different answers that mean nothing because we ain't living with him, near him nor hiring him.

Then you should probably read this book, just in self-defense, before it becomes necessary.

You should probably put your head on a railroad track. Oops, I forgot, you did try to kill yourself that way once before but were too [bleep] stupid to make it work.

Forgiveness is not given, forgiveness is earned.
The individual who refuses to forgive and forget, is only harming themselves.


Jim

lol...really?

[i][/i]

Just a quick perusal of the chapter titles tells me all I need to know about the book - the chapter that is titled "Following (or harassing) the money." The only cases I worked, or was aware of, where following the money (who has the most to gain from the commission of the offense) were those murders committed by true sociopaths who had psycho-sexual fantasies. The sociopath would select an appropriate target to act out his fantasy with, then he would strike. In the cases I was aware of the perpetrator didn't give a shhit about money. When investigating a offence the first step is to try and discover who had the most to gain or lose - depends on the context.

We all have it bad but haven't resorted to stealing! Your continual hiding of what they did only makes them look so guilty of something really bad! I couldn't really care WHY they can't get a job! Honest people can't get jobs either!

I understand your calling is God and forgiveness but expecting a whole town to turn the other cheek just isn't going to happen! If ya really want to help them, let them work for you!

It grinds me even more that while your here gathering support for a criminal, honest folks are hungry and homeless! They have kids suffering thru things also! Where's their forgiveness!

Just a quick perusal of the chapter titles tells me all I need to know about the book - the chapter that is titled "Following (or harassing) the money." The only cases I worked, or was aware of, where following the money (who has the most to gain from the commission of the offense) was useless were those murders committed by true sociopaths who had psycho-sexual fantasies. The sociopath would select an appropriate target to act out his fantasy with, then he would strike. In the cases I was aware of the perpetrator didn't give a shhit about money. When investigating a offence the first step is to try and discover who had the most to gain or lose - depends on the context.

The thesis of the book is that you have almost certainly already committed some act, most likely many of them, for which a prosecutor, should he take it into his head to do so, can get you arrested, indicted, convicted, and imprisoned.

I'm not talking about crimes you have committed that you're pretty sure nobody knows about.

I'm not talking about things you've done that you didn't know were illegal at the time.

I'm not talking about things you've done that were probably legal but may have at times approached the boundary of illegality.

If you've ever done any of those things, this book isn't about you.

This is about people who didn't do anything even approaching an illegal act, but who were still successfully convicted of felonies by prosecutors and judges with axes to grind.

The point to be made here is not that there are preparations you should make if you want to stay out of prison. That ship has sailed. If a prosecutor or a judge wants you in prison, you'll end up in prison no matter who you are or what you have or haven't done. As they say in the field, any halfway decent prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich. It's no longer clear that a defense lawyer is even worth the expense anymore.

The point to be made here is that the fact that somebody else ended up in prison is a reliable indicator of...pretty much nothing at all.

Lots of folks act as though it is, but there's a significant amount of money to be made and business to be done and competitors to be fleeced by people who understand that it isn't.

EXACLTY...where is it? an no, I did not expect a town to, just enough for the person to get a foothold to a new start

Didn't read the whole thread so don't know if this has been covered�.but a for instance is my ex-wife, who cheated on me.

When will she be forgiven?


Easy���never.




I pretty much take that approach to most malfeasance.

Actually I'm very sorry if I've said anything that may have offended you! Your trying to do good things and I sure respect ya for it! I'm going thru a lot myself and this morning I have to do something I've dreaded for a long time and its very painful!

I hope ya can help this fella, and I hope even more that your kindness and caring will also help non criminals to get on their feet also!

Exactly what I was trying to say in my post above, dang I envy you eloquent speakers. smile

Gunner

Perfect people demanding the company of perfect people........

Good luck with that.

No Dutch, it's very simple, I'm not ever gonna:

Try to screw your wife
stab you in the back on a business deal
steal from you
commit crimes against others

If people would pull their fu-kin heads outta their asses and do the right thing they wouldnt be asking for forgivness, plus, I AINT GOD, and I aint in the forgivin business.

Gunner

I don't know if it's because it's Sunday or what, but I find this post very confusing.


Travis

When you break the social and moral contract with a community you will likely NEVER be "forgiven".

Nor should it be as the individual has demonstrated and proven that they are not worthy of the trust and respect given to those who follow the laws and standards.

It sounds like much more than "I made a mistake".

It's very easy for a man to do wrong on all fronts everyday, keep your head in the path of the straight and narrow young buck.

Gunner

Nice touch on your keyboard,Gunny. You nailed it.

Good advice, Gunner....
for both my heads.

Thanks Bob and 'Slave, testosterone in an evil being all it's own. lol

Gunner

The small one is deaf.
I forgive.

Confucius say, man who eat cracker in bed have very crumby sleep.

Gunner

I've been straight my whole life but I can't say I've always picked the narrow one.

50/50 ain't bad.

Thanks Gunner.


Travis

'flave say:

"Don't break."



Travis

My pleasure and thank you to 'Flave.

Gunner

I have never forgiven flame for his April fools jokes. WWJD?

lmao

Gunner

Jesus believed. And so should you.



Dave

I remember that case. She was a beautiful woman. I hope that [bleep] is enjoying his time in prison. I hope Bubba is bending him over (forcibly, hopefully) every day of the week.

I can't even write what I'm thinking

Smells like dat babys diaper is LOADED.

Gunner

OK�let me try this again:

This post begs a couple questions:

1. What have you been doing with that child?

and

2. If Jesus believed, what did HE believe in?

I think he's trying to put he/she in the trash can.

WTF kinda lawyer are you???



Travis

Jesus Christ you guys are dumb.

1.) I'm doing the same thing every other dad does with a baby. Giving it back to its mother!

2.) He believed in 'flave. Duh.


Travis

Hey! Bobs a good guy!

He's got that " Lawyer" look, but is otherwise OK�.

No way. I love all my children.

I just refuse to interact with them until they stop schitting their pants and learn to speak english.

This is life. There are rules.


Travis

One more question then: did he shout your name during sex?

=============

A respectful one.

The first thought that came to mind was "phone home".

Fixt it for you.

Jokes?........WTF?
You a non-believer?

Is he going by 'flame now?

Did you change my quote? i NEVER misspell, and spelchek never fuggs with me�.

Kawi could understand it�.just sayin�..

And what business is that of yours ?

Denny.

ingwe has much to learn about fatherhooding.




Travis

Moving may not help. My son had an arrest as a stupid 19 year old. He made restitution and did unsupervised probation. His record shows a dismissed/redacted misdemeanor. No jail time. Since his arrest was by a major retailer they kept only the arrest on a separate Consumer Reporting data base. It took 2 years to get it cleared after it was dismissed in court. His background checks come in clean unless he applies for a .gov job and then it will show a dismissal. The major retailer has no report of him ever working there now. It was a huge headache over a dismissed "crime".
Now, something that bugs me is his cousin had a DUI and never had problems getting work as long as it wasn't a driving job. He put the public safety at risk and that seemed to be OK with employers.

When he earns it. Has he earned it?

Waputi, I did a little research on this case this morning. Mark Hacking wept in court, apologized to the victim's mother and begged her forgiveness. Hacking's father said he "never loved his son more" than when he took responsibility for killing his wife (who was the quintessence of innocence and beauty and who was pregnant at the time). Hacking's claim (through his lawyer) was that his lies had brought such pain to his wife, that he had to kill her; he killed her to end her emotional suffering. It was also argued that he had mental problems (unspecified), was depressed and didn't really understand what he was doing (he was in a fog when he killed her, so to speak); not his normal self.

In other words, we should have some understanding and show some mercy on him for this heinous killing. There is more here than meets the eye; there are some mitigating factors here, right?

Well guess what? The POS is now selling, over the internet, pieces of his mustache, and other murder "memorabilia" to earn money for himself in prison. He has gotten a prison tat of a bulldozer on his chest (they had to search for his dead wife's body at a landfill using bulldozers) and now goes by the prison moniker "Dozer". In other words, the guy is well and truly a complete piece of [bleep].Wonder how "proud" of his son the old man is now?


You got to be really careful who and when you forgive, seems to me.

Jordan

Where is the family in all of this? When a person commits a crime in a small town, it ruins their reputation for a VERY long time. Sometimes, when it is bad enough, they just have to leave and get a fresh start somewhere else.

When they are so Rich that everyone kisses their butt regardless of what they did!!!!

Family is certainly not wealthy, but they are doing what they can.

Getting back to your original question, which was when does society forgive this person.

What has he done, so far as you can see, to earn forgiveness?

Jezzus forgives

The name for them isn't ex-offenders it's criminals/felons and they are the bad guys.

He should move.

If its hard for him to move, so what, he made a bed and now he's gonna lie in it.

some times you just have to move, to start over. Different State, different people, no one knows you, or cares.

I can't imagine having the nerve to fugg over a person, or a bunch of people, and then asking them for forgiveness.

Get gone.

You're expecting way too much from humans.

Relax: it's a term of art. An incarcerated felon is a prisoner, and a released felon is an ex-offender.

And thanks for demonstrating the truth of my earlier prediction.

Sad to say that the 24HCF is loaded with self righteous folks.

Denny.

Well said.

did you strangle all those cats?

I wonder if what you are describing is a forgiveness issue or a trust issue? I don't think the two come about simultaniously.

...dang I envy you eloquent speakers.

Me.

Sure you do. lol

Gunner

"Ex-offender" is a term of art for social workers who need to document the success of the programs that employ them.

So I can't tell: are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

Not common I find agreement with Dutch. But this is one.

Any of you self-righteous dudes that are so tightly-wound that they would not cross a "line-in-the-sand" when crossing that line would be the right thing to do, law notwithstanding, get no respect from me.

This comment is a generic comment directed toward the self-righteous crowd, not the guy referenced in the OP.

I've always seen it as a form of symbiosis, this
"Social Worker / Felon" dance.

It's WRONG that this dance party is subsidized to the degree that it currently is.

...Play Dick Clark with your own $$.

GTC

I can forgive people just fine.

I can't understand fugging someone over and then asking them for something, even forgiveness. That is just plain fugged up.

Understand that position.

What I can't reconcile is someone stating they would never have anything to do with a felon.

It takes pretty much a lot to make me turn people away. In the last ten years i have had to fire a number of relatives, close ones, that I will never be around or talk to again. Life is better for it.
Slav's are like that. You get them mad, and they remember it for hundreds of years.
I have no regrets for firing these people given what they did. If God wants to forgive them, doubtful, he can.

I agree. Matter of fact, I'm about to give a conference presentation on that very argument.

Rehabilitation is not and cannot be a government function, even if you think the government is beneficent and infallible. Governments have to deal with people in groups with bureaucrats according to rules that can be gamed; rehabilitation must be done with individuals by individuals who can be personally invested and much harder to game. Resources should not be spent on those who are not yet ready to do the work.

Well, okay, either that or the rehabilee is competent enough to rehabilitate himself with little or no assistance; that happens occasionally, but it's rare because folks with that kind of constitution generally don't get into too much trouble.

Saturday, my wife made a cake using a recipe from convicted felon Martha Stewart.

I don't know if these means I forgive Martha Stewart, but I ate several pieces of the cake.

Yah...there are more felons around than most of us realize, given that over one percent of our population is in prison at any given time and most of them are eventually released, several each day from every prison. More than likely each of us has interacted with at least one felon during the past week.

Hacksaw blade, gem stone hammer, or shank in the mix? Makes a difference.