The conversation about the other 30 cal semi auto combat rifles brought back to my mind the nasty or insidious looking Dragunov rifles in 7.62x54R. Almost identical in power to the 308/7.62x51 rifles, how good is the reliability, function under duress or hard conditions and ergo's etc. on these? I have zero experience with them but note that they are a bit less expensive to buy than the FN/FAL, a new AR-10 type rifle etc. and the ammo is, so far, pretty common and cheap. I am hoping that some here have a bit of hands on experience with them. Did they serve the USSR in thier battles with the Afghan's? Serve with distinction or known to be troublesome?

The SVD is a superlative weapon, but nigh impossible to find in the states and damned expensive. What you will find are PSK. They are decent, but not nearly the level of an SVD.

The SVD's we played with were far from "superlative"..Cocking them sound like rattling a box of spanners and accuracy while "ok" was not in the same league as Brit or American sniper rifles we also had..Reliability was a bit mixed but that may be down to the fact they had seen a hard life by their original owners..

In todays parlance, I'd say it was more of a "designated marksmans" rifle than a true sniper rifle...

I had one sometime back, never liked the trigger. A long take up without a stop, it was almost like a trigger on a toy gun. It was not stiff, but had no 2nd stage and needed one. The optics were sturdy, but nothing to write home about. At the time, .310 bullets were not available, so it was either .308 or .311. Factory ammo produced 1" to 1 1/2" groups at 100 yards on a good day. Never got better with handloads.

A shooting friend bought one of the Chinese varients. I'd rate his weapon rates some where between junk and wall hanger. This rifles best quality is, it will throw brass some where into the next county.

Jim

They are difficult to shoot well. Just think, no free floating barrel - every difference in hold (sling, rest, bipod, etc) gives a different POI.

Safariman,

What do you actually want a rifle to do, as you're contemplating all manner of different platforms?

Owned a SVD and FPK. Shot them, sold them.
Coolness factor is off the charts, usefulness factor non-existent.


I equate them to shooting a 2x4 with a scope on it.

Fair question.

I am deciding if the CETME in my safe is the best thing to have on hand for the SHTF day we all hope never comes. It would be a plus if the rifle was fun to shoot and thusly often went with me on shooting days for practice.

At my age and current condition I am not going to be running or jumping much of anywhere so weight is a non factor so long as I can swing a second rifle light enough for my petite frame wife to use and shoot. So, I guess this search is for a stationary use rifle for keeping groups of bad folks away from my pretty wife and food/water/medicine supplies. The low liklihood of this kind of mess happening in my remaining lifetime means that if a rifle is accurate enough and has a trigger decent enough for a little hunting or coyote calling, so much the better.

With just a little bit of shooting, I have come to the conclusion others have mentioned in my other thread that my short barreled CETME is a bit too loud, and loses a bunch of the 7.62x51's velocity and power advantage with its too short barrel. As it sits, it is more of a really heavy and very loud 300 Savage. Not all that bad, but better is out there.

Last on my list of possible scenario's is the very low probability that we as a nation may be forced take back our country by force, and a good battle tested rifle is something that I think EVERY household should have on hand.

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it is my philosophy.

I do not have the money to buy examples of each of these and try them out so am VERY grateful for the knowledge and experience that has been shed here. As it is, might be a while before I will be able to snag my new choice and hope of an FN/FAL rifle. I was curious as to whether the SVD would be a decent choice and it seems as though this is not the case.

Truth be told, I would actually be pretty well served with a good running AR-15, but I like the cool factor and "oh wow, check out THIS bad mamma-jamma" factor in a rifle. As well, for big game hunting here the bullet has to be a minimum of .243 in diameter so being able to hunt some with this rifle is a plus for me.

My wife does not hunt, and is not of a frame makeup to be able to handle a 10-12lb 308 so she will soon be picking out an AR-15 with a GOOD reflex sight atop. She likes and shoots this platform much better than that of the M-1 carbine we had here for a while.

We both hope that these guns, like our daily carry pieces, are never fired because we HAVE to fire them. That every round we put through them is for practice, fun or putting game meat on the table. But still.......

My wife is deadly with my para fal.
The combo device on the end, is also a muzzle brake.
It has but a 17 3/8" barrel and is not a hindrance at distant targets.
It also has a folding stock for tight spaces.
I ran a course once, shooting at bad guy targets going down a narrow hall, shooting out windows.
One bad guy target was just out a window on the ground. I just stuck the para out the window and fired it like a pistol.
The target had to be replaced cuz the muzzle blast blew a big hole in it.
Do not underestimate a person who knows their weapon!
ap ammo adds another level to 7.62x51 ammo!!

I've owned and shot them. Had a Chinese SVD when they first came out, then someone offered me way too much money and I parted with it; wish I still had it. If I had one today, I'd NEVER let it go.

But these days a real Russian SVD goes anywhere from 6-10 thousand dollars, and the Chinese ones are 4-6 thousand. They're cool, but they're collector�s items, big time.

The SVD is actually an excellent weapon for its intended purpose. The Russian/Soviet infantry squad was very different from a US infantry squad (but not anymore). In an infantry squad you'll have 6-8 guys with AK's, two guys with RPK's or RPD's, and two guys with SVD's. The "sniper" in a Russian unit is really a designated marksman by our standards. Actually, the US finally caught onto the concept when the wars in the Middle East got going. The Russians had a lot of things right and the mix of weapons in a squad was one of them. These days a US unit packs a load-out quite similar, just much better quality. The Marines have even ordered up a magazine fed Squad Auto version of the M16, think of it as an M16 version of the RPK. We�re just copying what the Russians got quite right.

So given its mission in the Russian infantry unit, the SVD performs very well.

The SVD is strongly disliked by Westerners because it�s 100% Russian and reflects their thoughts on infantry weapons, not ours. Don�t confuse that to think it doesn�t do its job well. They are sufficiently accurate to make kills at 700m (which is a long shot for a DMR), and they�re extremely reliable. During the Afghanistan war Soviet �snipers� made shots out to 1,000m quite often, but that�s honestly pushing the design and intent of the weapon a little beyond. Balance is odd by western standards, they�re very muzzle heavy. Ergonomics are adequate but that�s about all you can say. The optics are low powered and lack the clarity of western optics, but they are supremely durable (made of magnesium) and the SVD reticle is very slick when you get used to it; perfect for its intended purpose. It�s very quick for range finding and getting onto target. From 100-600m you typically don�t even have to adjust a turret. Just figure your range, and hold on the proper stadia line�it�s very quick. Once I got used to the SVD scope, I came to really like the system.

The SVD only holds 10 rounds and there are not any larger magazines (that I�m aware of). So if you found yourself in a closer firefight, you�d be at a distinct disadvantage. But again, it�s the mindset that the man with the SVD will be supported by a squad, not alone. Russians have more traditional �hunt and kill� snipers, but they use a bolt action, not the SVD. My SVD was a 3.5 MOA weapon all day long with Russian �special long range� ammunition (I believe it was a 180 grain bullet vs. the normal 150).

The SVD is NOT an AK derivative, it�s a completely different rifle despite the visual similarities. It has far more in common with an SKS than the AK. It uses a fully machined receiver and a gas system that�s multi-piece and rather unique. IIRC the trigger mechanism is a copy of the SKS.

Then there�s the Romanian PSL. Despite the similarity in looks to the SVD, it�s a completely different rifle. Literally the only parts that would interchange are the scope and the sling. The PSL is basically an over-sized, beefed up and accurized AK. The rifle is based on an RPK 1.5mm thick stamped receiver, and everything else is straight up AK. Accuracy is typically 4MOA which is sufficient for 600m hits consistently. The PSL�s are supremely reliable and sufficiently accurate for their intended purpose. Again it�s a DMR, not a �sniper� rifle. The butt stocks on the PSL�s are WAAAY too short, I don�t know who they were designed for, but a smallish Chinese guy would find them slightly awkward; but there are other options in that department. The great thing about the PSL�s was the cost, but they are going up in cost pretty quick. Nowadays you can often find a surplus parts DSA built FAL for less than you can buy a PSL and the FAL is a better rifle in every conceivable manner.

Typically you find SVD�s in service with Eastern European former Warsaw Pact nations, and you find PSL�s all over the 3rd world. Pretty much anywhere you find armed conflict, you�ll find a PSL�Africa is thick with them.

Your requirements scream AR-15 HBAR, maybe a flat top with a scope.

Within the parameters as set, I would firmly be in the AR15 camp.

If caliber/weight concerned me much (double duty hunting) I would look at a 6.8 variant and at reasonable ranges I wouldn't feel undergunned running a 300BO with a good quality 110-130gr bullet.

If distances dictate more power I have bolt guns for that and plenty of time to transition to the carbine if ranges shorten.

Alright, first for some very cold water and to burst your fantasy.

If SHTF, you're dead and damned fast. Period; end of discussion. With your health problems you've laid out here, chapter and verse, you'd dead or incapacitated as soon as your pills run out or low. If you're on 90 day supplies, you have at most that long; 30 day supplies, at most that long. Murphy's law will dictate that SHTF not the day after you get a refill, though. So, you're a dead man and quickly.

Before that happens, you'll run out of food or water. I don't gather that you farm yourself, or that you live in an area where you're on a well. The water goes out; you're dead, because you damned sure can't get access to other water without exposing yourself and you're in no physical condition to be carrying water. That "pretty, petite little wife" of yours, that you love to brag about, is a target then and one you likely can't cover (you won't have fuel, and you can't walk that well or cover your supplies at home); unless you can cover her hauling water to/from the house, you're dead.

Even if you do engage groups trying to take what stuff you do have, how long do you really think you can hold out? Is your house in an area where you can see for considerable distances without any cover/concealment near it? Do you have a strong structure on the roof to hide behind and the ability to get to/from it without exposing yourself to cover the perimeter? Odds are, no, you aren't in a strategic position for defense, and you're a sitting duck.

I could continue, but please, just throw that "white hat, protecting his woman and home" BS right out the window. You're a very dead man, very soon, if SHTF and that "pretty little wife" of yours will have to fend for herself. You'd better be putting time and energy into shoring up her relations with her family, if you really think that SHTF comes in your lifetime. They MIGHT have a chance at protecting her; you don't have a prayer.

Hell, even if you did survive the first waves, you're dead when the meds run out, and there ain't a damned thing you can do about that, and nowhere either of the two of you are getting to before those meds run out that will be any better. If S really does HTF, there's no cavalry coming and no reprieve.

Now, with that out of the way, get two AR-15 lowers. Hers should be an M4 variant in 5.56. Set one up for yourself the same, as then she'll know yours as well as hers (they'll both be hers eventually anyway). If you want more horsepower for hunting, a second upper on yours is easy and you can run up to WSSMs through there.

Just concentrate on the plinking, varmint shooting, and maybe some big game hunting. SHTF is the last thing you should be considering, because you wouldn't last long enough to even get past the first splatter from the fan.

Good points, all.

Since I am not going to be running or jumping anywhere, maybe a heavy and somewhat longer barreled AR that can double as a rodent blaster, a better compromise. Fast twist of course so as to be able to use the heavier slugs on large, determined targets.

I am not a signee to any PACT, Warsaw or otherwise so no reason a box of magazines could not be stashed away filled with ammo sporting a 69-75gr expanding bullets.

As well, while I dig the cool factor of some of the big 30 cal battle rifles, I as a citizen only trying to keep my home and family safe am not going to be engaging anything or anybody 500 meters or yards out. Only immediate threats. As I think this whole thing through (thanks to all who have offered thier thoughts and experience) a pair of AR's, one heavy and one light, might make the most sense. Commonality of magazines, parts, ammo etc. ain't a bad thing even of my "squad" is only two people or a couple more (son, daughters etc).

Cool factor at the range and to folks coming over to see some toys ain't gonna be of any help if we ever really DO come to the real, true SHTF circumstance.

I, too have bolt guns that can take a vehicle out of service in most cases.

Once again, Lord may we never actually see and live such days. May there be at least one more great revival or awakening of our Nation to you and your principles as well as to a constitutional republic. Send us men and women, and help us elect them, who will help us return to these things. And perhaps another Billy Graham or DL Moody to help spark a spiritual awakening once again. Amen.

4Ager,

You are spot on about my being dead as soon as my pills run out, if not sooner. Thusly, I need to concentrate upon what I need to get through only a short period of crisis. Even if I get a Kidney Transplant soon, which is a best possible outcome for me save a divine healing (which I still believe can happen) I will be on some very strong anti rejection medicines. My lifespan once those are out, whether my pre transplant meds now being taken or my post transplant meds, is measured in days.

Many of us though, including myself, are trying to prepare for the more likely scenarios (and more survivable) of short term crisis caused by natural disasters or unfortunate political events which cause some amount of rioting and looting. Maybe as a last resort a certain suicide mission against the capitol if a leader did not step down at the end of his or her term etc.

I have 'some' long term storage food and a year 'round creek. The water from which would not be hard to make palatable and safe. This with my generators and stored supplies should get us through short term crisis, if one strikes.

If some basic preparation like I am doing will not get us through, not sure surviving is the best option.

Lastly, even if the need for such battle rifles is a very low chance scenario - as I believe it is - it is FUN to have a discussion about the best possible preparation in terms of a firearm and ammo etc.

I am no Zombie hunter or extreme prepper by any stretch. But it doesn't hurt to be prepared for the scenario's that CAN be survived and made more comfortable which can be prepared for.

Not much any of us can do to prepare against a nuclear attack etc. or even an armored all out invasion. But there are things that we can do for problems that come upon us which are short of that. This is where we find, in my opinion, the disscussions of reasonable men.

I don't know what meds you're on causing you to state stuff like that highlighted part in public, on an open forum, or what meds you ought to be on to prevent you from doing so, but you really ought to THINK more before you type.

The discussions of reasonable men would start with figuring out how to take care of hearth and home FIRST, especially with your well stated financial problems, and worry about acquiring more firearms LAST.

Weren't you, in fact, just very recently complaining of being so broke you couldn't pay attention and being forced to sell things off just to pay bills? And now you're contemplating BUYING TWO new rifles?

Hey Mark,
A 20" , fluted, bushmaster v-match, might be just what your looking for?

[/quote]
The discussions of reasonable men would start with figuring out how to take care of hearth and home FIRST, especially with your well stated financial problems, and worry about acquiring more firearms LAST. [/quote]

Hearth and home are A.O.K right now, but thanks for your concern. Financial problems have not been brought up here in a fairly long time as the situation is much improved compared to 2 and 3 years ago. But, your point is valid. If a different firearm is introduced to the home, it would be at the expense of one or more that live here already. Increasing the net value of the small pile on hand is not in the cards for a good while. But one of my nice pre Garcia Sako actioned custom rifles in varmint calibers, for example, could become gun show trading fodder some day. Either of them or the existing CETME would be fair game to become a good FN/FAL or heavy barreled AR with some ammo etc. if we decide to take such a turn. Thus, this discussion and the other like it.

And, since when did discussion topics here have to be about only the most practical and immediate matters? I don't think that any of us is going to build a replica of that 1912 300HP Fiat land speed record car, but it is sure fun to look at and Speculate over! Same thing with discussions about whether the Mitsubishi Zero was superior to the P-51 Mustang or some other warbird. Jap bikes VS Harleys and Victories etc. etc.

Whether I trade into a different firearm or 2 or not, the discussion has been fun (in my opinion anyway) and I learned some things. All good, as I see it.

2 or 3 years ago? you were b!tching about them mid-OCtober.........

YESSIREE! Want a pretty custom Mauser in 220 Swift?

No thanks.
Scopes on l1a1's work great too.

Great photos! And you have some fine shootin irons, for sure! Thanks for sharing them here with the pics.

And as to your recoil issues, notice no muzzle climb!

A Para Fal is pretty small for me!

Or maybe something like this would be better suited to what your thinking?




Going thru my photobucket, picking out pics, instead of taking new ones.

Yep, FAL's are the lightest recoiling, best handling .308's out there. To me at least, the handling characteristics are night and day with the FAL vs. everything else. Recoil is so mild in a FAL to the point to where if you compare it to a M14 you'd wonder if they were both firing the same round.

OK, now you have gone and done it! I am officially in the hunt for an FN/FAL. I will wait for a bit and sell off something I have or try to work a trade deal at a gun show, but the CETME is going to become an FN/FAL rifle. I probably have too many varmint only bolt actions, so one. of them can turn into one or more AR-15's as well.

Splattermatic, I am 6'3" and 245lbs. Are we close in size? I often find that rifles considered too big or too heavy for some folks are quite comfortable in my hands. I almost never can find gloves that fit my mitts, I am guessing from the photos that you suffer from the same ailments.

If you ever want one of your good semi automatics to become a really nice sporting or varminting rifle with great wood and barrel etc. PM me. I also have a synthetic stocked Remmy pump in 35 Whelen that could be sacrificed to the tools of battle.

Thanks so much for sharing your insight and experience.

GunGeek/Kevin, I much appreciate your insights here as well. You have added much value to these discussions. One of my first 'bucket list' post Kidney transplant hopes is a long ride on my Harley and the back highways from SE Oregon to Reno that I drove via car once are a prime candidate for that trip. Look for a turbocharged hot Rod Sportster down your way topped by a big guy with a mile wide grin from a new lease on life to stop by and take you out for burgers and beer. I 'might' just maybe, let you go for a spin on the beast, too

No thanks Mark, I've got way too many toys to begin with.
Also, as a side note, Springfield Armory, did import Sar 4800's (Imbel made) fal's in 5.56, that take ar mags!

A Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle, about 8-9 ten round magazines, and a trip to Randy Cain's Practical Rifle Course, if you're physically up to it, would be my Rx.

Randy's favorite "practical" rifle is a Win model 70 Compact in 308 with a 1-4x Leupold. Put a Ching Sling on it and learn to run it hard and fast.

An FR-8 Mauser, if you find one, and if the barrel isn't shot out of it, with a scout scope mount from XS, and a bunch of 762 stripper clips would do nicely, but they're getting hard to find.

Except for the Paras. They will thump you.

Big, long, bulky rifle. Fun to shoot. Plenty accurate for it's planned use.
Built well, and parts are not readily available. True SVD's seem to run from $5,000 to somewhere around $15,000 (for an apparent Russian bringback from some war zone). Also there's the sporter version that has a shorter barrel and was very available in the US about 15 years ago for about $600 to $1300 or so and that now sells foe $3,000- $6,000 depending on accessories.

Fun rifles.

Much nicer than the Romanian PSL's which are sometimes marked 'Dragunov' on their receivers but which are not by any stretch true Dragunovs. But, they are also a fun rifle.
I'd rather have a nice AR type 308 nowadays.


Read splattermatic's post.

4321,
no they don't. no more recoil than a standard model. pussies think so.

The sporter "drag" was called a tiger.

Yep, they spelled it "TIGR" on the receiver I think.

With the prices you guys are quoting for a real Dragunov, I am sure now that I was seeing something else being called a Dragunov but which was clearly not.

Any other decent semi auto's in 7.62x54R made that someone could dress up to look like a Draagunov? IF so, that is probably what I have been seeing for sale. Makes my question a different animal as a real Dragunov would cost about as much as a used Barrett m-82, a far better and cooler piece of furniture if that is what one is after.

Maybe I was looking at a TIGR that was being represented as a Draagunov? Were/are the TIGR's less expensive?

your seeing the Yugo and similar rifles on a stamped, not milled receiver....

DPMS .LR-308

That shoots like this.


Damn phone and spell check.

A TIGR is a Dragunov. It's not the SVD version. The SVD is the full military version. Longer, skinny, whippy barrel.

Dragunov is the name of the designer. It's a lot like an AR where there can be a longer barrel version and the shorter barrel version. A few differences. Different muzzle device and sights. The American import rifles for the most part did not have an internal safety sear-- the BATFE apparently considered it an auto sear but it's function is to prevent an out of battery fire. Stocks are interchangeable but military type stock is much cooler. Gas tubes are different.

There's also a shorter version called the SVDS. None of these imported but some made up from kits and fabrication of parts. Very nice. Very pricey.

All of these are Dragunovs.

And yes, the TIGR's are less expensive. Here, at least. But, in Europe and Russia reportedly the TIGR's are more expensive and preferred by many shooters.

Turn out a brake like this one and it won't have any muzzle climb!

Unfortunately, the buttstock'll jump up and kick ya in the head every time you pull the trigger. That Magnaport stuff don't do on a FAL.



But it was pretty!,...and that barrel is the classiest tomato stake in the garden.

Probably what you want is a PSL. At least that's the name I'm most familiar with.
I think there's a PSK also. You will want to be aware that there are differences as to where they were manufactured, also. There were some put together by Tennessee Guns, IIRC, and also, Century maybe. Sorry, but I've forgotten the details. Generally the true Romanian versions are preferred. Although the work can be iffy there, too.

Then the bayonet wouldn't fit!
The apple corer is a mighty wicked sticker.

I wouldn't screw around with Soviet or Chinese weapons. You should buy 2 ARs, 2 semi-auto pistols and get 2,000 rounds of ammo for each. ARs are much better quality than the other weapons and they are not all that expensive. Put a reddot or low power variable (1-4 or 2-8) leupold on them. 223 ammo is light and very effect for self defense and you can use 30 round mags. ARs are pretty light too. Might also get AR pistols with single point harnesses

You don't need to plan for long disasters. It could be something like the Rodney King riots where you have to fight a large mob.

Those are the kinds of scenarios I was more thinking of.

If that's what you're thinking about don't waste time and money on the neat but uncommon rifles - Drag and PSL types-on this thread.
I'd suggest AR, FAL, M1A. Any would serve well.

I would just build my own Gatling gun. Cast and load up a ton of 45-70 rounds and set it up in a turret built on the side of your house.

This was my thought as well. The stuff we played with was used hard and old though. And who knows if "good" ammo would help a lot.

Think scoped M14 instead of M40.

They don't bother me much, but recoil is much more noticable due to the stock design. The standard fixed stock is an excellent design where recoil is concerned. The butt plate is nice and wide, distributes recoil all over the shoulder; especially the rubber butt plates.

The folder while an excellent design has about 1/4 the surface area, so all that is focused onto a much smaller section of your shoulder, so it's MUCH more noticable.

In fact for me at least, I never even noticed FAL recoil until I fired a folder. It doesn't bother me at all, but I do notice it.

What you're seeing is either a PSL (Romanian), VEPR, or Saiga. The VEPR's and Saiga's are actually rather good rifles, the weak point being their magazines which are decent, but certainly not what I'd call "military grade". If you found something like a 20" VEPR or Saiga for around a grand that would be a downright decent rifle allowing you to use that super cheap 7.62x54, which allows you to shoot a lot.

SWEET Izzy dood!!

7.62x54R is more in line with the 30-06 than the .308

So what's the bad news on this for him then?