Anyone notice that @ 3:21 just after the first gun shot the standing cop on the left kicks the cop on the ground right in the face?
Why no blue lights? Do these cops not even own a set of cuffs? Fk! What melee. I've been in some brawls at at NCO clubs but you have to start cuffing folk. I think once the spray was introduced the cops were diminished and resorted to deadly force. The cop that got shot in the leg got shot by the cop on the left. The same one that kicked him in the face.
The WalTrash were completely out of control, and no matter what happened, the only thing on their minds was fighting and resisting. I have no doubt that there could have been a couple or more cops shot and killed had things gone the other way for a few seconds.
The whole scene is a bad nightmare.
The danger is paramount with those fighting, moving around, appearing to surrender, then getting back into the fight from another angle. WAY too much going on there to cover anyone's back for very long. They needed back-up, and lots of it. But, being a small town, it wasn't available.
Anyone notice that @ 3:21 just after the first gun shot the standing cop on the left kicks the cop on the ground right in the face?
Why no blue lights? Do these cops not even own a set of cuffs? Fk! What melee. I've been in some brawls at at NCO clubs but you have to start cuffing folk. I think once the spray was introduced the cops were diminished and resorted to deadly force.
Pavlovian response. It is the assumption that anyone on the ground is a civilian.
The danger is paramount with those fighting, moving around, appearing to surrender, then getting back into the fight from another angle. WAY too much going on there to cover anyone's back for very long. They needed back-up, and lots of it. But, being a small town, it wasn't available.
This. As seen with the North Charlston incident one officer can deal with someone running away:
but if the civilians are staying in the area, there needs to be at least 10 officers to every civilian for the police to triumph as seen here.
The cop that got shot was shot by his own officer.
I'll bet this is all stemming from a shoplifting. When ballistic come it'll show the cop on the left at 3:17, was pepper sprayed, shot his own officer. Fkin Christians.
The cop that got shot was shot by his own officer.
I'll bet this is all stemming from a shoplifting. When ballistic come it'll show the cop on the left at 3:17, was pepper sprayed, shot his own officer. Fkin Christians.
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They also had been taught to roll after they were shot with stun guns in order to break the wires and stop the shock, and to appear to give up by putting their hands in the air in order to get close to attack again. The family refused orders to "get on the ground" and eventually overpowered Daniels. Two of the suspects, including Enoch Graver, battled the officer for his gun, which went off and wounded him in the leg.
The cop that got shot was shot by his own officer.
I'll bet this is all stemming from a shoplifting. When ballistic come it'll show the cop on the left at 3:17, was pepper sprayed, shot his own officer. Fkin Christians.
No, you are wrong. Watch it again. The officer on the ground is the one who is shot in the leg, you can see the shot happen at 3:10 in the video, you see the flash of the pistol held up against his left thigh. The cop is wrestling with 3 of the derelicts for his gun and it goes off. It was not another cop, you can clearly see the shot.
At 3:17 is when the officer fires the first of two shots to clear the derelicts off the downed officer. The first hit the guy in the dark sweatshirt I believe, the second is at 3:20 the officer shoots a derelict in the face that was still attacking the officer who had been shot. 3 shots fired total, first was in the struggle for the officer's gun between him and at least 3 derelicts. The second two shots hit 2 derelicts, one in the stomach the other in the face. The third shot was the fatal one.
It was not a shoplifting, officers responded to a call by Walmart because the derelicts were in the store and physically assaulted an employee. They were camped out in their Suburban. When the fight breaks out there are 9 derelicts total, 7 fighting males against 4 officers and one civilian.
"It was not a shoplifting, officers responded to a call by Walmart because the derelicts were in the store and physically assaulted an employee. They were camped out in their Suburban. When the fight breaks out there are 9 derelicts total, 7 fighting males against 4 officers and one civilian."
This is a situation where the cops would have been justified in approaching with drawn guns and shooting the first person who engaged them, or failed to follow their order to stop fighting.
Wow ! Walmart shoppers and incompetent police. How more didn't get killed is amazing. Cops escalated the situation out of control being overly aggressive without even the first thought put into it. Then , not one of them puts any of the idiots in cuffs before moving on to the next guy. Completely justified shooting and honestly they could have shot a couple more with justification. The saying play stupid games win stupid prizes applies to both the family and the police. I will give the police credit for not being eager to shoot the idiots. Numbers were not in the police's favor so why go directly to grabbing people ? The first officer was handling it without it turning into a melee and a moment to consult with him and assess the situation probably would have ended with nobody dead and a reasonably quiet arrest. We'll never know and the idiot son who went for the gun is dead.
Wow ! Walmart shoppers and incompetent police. How more didn't get killed is amazing. Cops escalated the situation out of control being overly aggressive without even the first thought put into it. Then , not one of them puts any of the idiots in cuffs before moving on to the next guy. Completely justified shooting and honestly they could have shot a couple more with justification. The saying play stupid games win stupid prizes applies to both the family and the police. I will give the police credit for not being eager to shoot the idiots. Numbers were not in the police's favor so why go directly to grabbing people ? The first officer was handling it without it turning into a melee and a moment to consult with him and assess the situation probably would have ended with nobody dead and a reasonably quiet arrest. We'll never know and the idiot father who went for the gun is dead.
Pretty good QB skills.
If you watch it with sound you can hear the cop say they need to separate for questioning. This is met by immediate response that is not happening. The cops didn't "just start grabbing people" they derelicts were agitated, circling and not complying and hadn't been before the video starts. Then the fight breaks out. The cops did not start it.
regarding cuffing, the officers were outnumbered and being doubleteamed most of the time. And the derelicts were fighting and resisting arrest. It maybe wasn't as easy as you think to "just cuff them."
I am Monday morning QBing but the fight started when the cop laid hands on the son. It was a bad situation from the start and a moment to access without jumping in might have told them to wait longer for more help. It was coming and they new that. If it had been me in those officer's shoes there would have been three dead sons so give them credit for restraint. I just read the accompanying story and I was assuming it was a shoplifting when I wrote the first post. Knowing now that it was an assult call I would have been even more wary of getting into it without more backup. In no way am I second guessing the shooting though. It was just a bad situation to arrive to and I don't think that the officer barking orders and putting hands on the son was well thought out. A moment to talk them down and wait for more help I believe would have resulted in nobody dead or in the hospital. I suspect the officer who set that off wishes he'd been a little calmer and patient too. The incompetent comment is a too harsh but it wasn't handled well and arriving backup was way over confident in their ability to handle things.
Indeed they can ! And pepper spray and tazing and batton hits. They didn't have much quit in them. After I had sprayed them , tazed them , hit them and they came back and tried to assult me again I'd have just shot them rather that risk injury again. You've already used all your non lethal force at that point and you are running a big risk of injury or death.
Indeed they can ! And pepper spray and tazing and batton hits. They didn't have much quit in them. After I had sprayed them , tazed them , hit them and they came back and tried to assult me again I'd have just shot them rather that risk injury again. You've already used all your non lethal force at that point and you are running a big risk of injury or death.
Dave, I may have missed this previously, but did you mind me asking are you a currently serving, or an ex, LEO?
Indeed they can ! And pepper spray and tazing and batton hits. They didn't have much quit in them. After I had sprayed them , tazed them , hit them and they came back and tried to assult me again I'd have just shot them rather that risk injury again. You've already used all your non lethal force at that point and you are running a big risk of injury or death.
Now all but one has moved on to assault and terrorize others.
I suspect the officer who set that off wishes he'd been a little calmer and patient too.
Which one "set it off?"
One cop says something like "we need to seperate these people for questioning" and then dad says something like "that is not happening." Fight breaks out. I guess I'm not seeing anything that says one officer "set this off." Something happened behind the group to set the fight off, reports are that a derelict threw a punch. Responsibility for this event is squarely on the band of derelicts.
I suspect the officer who set that off wishes he'd been a little calmer and patient too.
Which one "set it off?"
One cop says something like "we need to seperate these people for questioning" and then dad says something like "that is not happening." Fight breaks out. I guess I'm not seeing anything that says one officer "set this off." Something happened behind the group to set the fight off, reports are that a derelict threw a punch. Responsibility for this event is squarely on the band of derelicts.
That is always the case. It is always the fault of the civilian(s).
"Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you. Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me."
here is an incident where the perp got what they asked for when they pushed the officer:
No. I knew damned well I didn't have the temperament for it. I'd have shot three of the brothers for sure . I'm pretty critical of the police but they don't owe anyone proven to be wanting to do them harm. I'm not a fan of the over the top aggressive control everything attitude in policing and I believe that in many instances it would serve them and the people they interact with better if they used a less confrontational approach. That situation could have been streched over time and it would have allowed more backup and possibly a non violent arrest. They were already talking to the first officer so there was reason to believe that you could stall longer to put the man power number into your odds and end it peacefully. Knowing now that they were religious nuts waiting for the end times makes me think it would still have ended in a struggle but if they had waited for more backup and gone into the arrest expecting resistance they would have fared much better. LEO or not , getting into it when your outnumbered is a bad call and should be avoided if at all possible.
Backup arrived and the fight broke out immediately after they got there. Regarding more backup, the entire Cottonwood PD at night is 8 men. As soon as 3 and 4 showed up the fight broke out. All 8 responed eventually, the fight went on longer after the cruiser with the cam left with the shot officer but the worst of it was what is on camera I think.
I'm just saying it's easy to second guess everything but you don't expect a family to start throwing punches when asked to separate for questioning. I don't see evidence that they "knowingly got into it", the brawl was taken to them before officers 3 and 4 had time to sort anything out. The fight was boiling as they got there.
The danger is paramount with those fighting, moving around, appearing to surrender, then getting back into the fight from another angle. WAY too much going on there to cover anyone's back for very long. They needed back-up, and lots of it. But, being a small town, it wasn't available.
Exactly right, half the force was there at the beginning of the fight. Watch you can see guns come out, hands go up, derelicts move off, gun gets holstered, derelicts resume fighting. You can see them rolling out of the taser. You can see them gouging eyes and always going for officers' heads. You can see one guy open up his eyes after getting pepper sprayed so the pepper runs out faster. It sure looks like a fight with the cops is something this family has talked about before.
The cop that got shot was shot by his own officer.
I'll bet this is all stemming from a shoplifting. When ballistic come it'll show the cop on the left at 3:17, was pepper sprayed, shot his own officer. Fkin Christians.
You should try it. Theres nothing more fun than when I get a few of my Baptist bro's on a Friday night, get drunk playing poker, go to Wally World, steal beer, asaault store employees and fight with the cops.
I watched it. I doubt if I would have waited as long as the cops did before shooting one of them.
The cops used as much restraint as any human should have to.
According to the article I read, the cop who did the shooting was put on administrative leave, then the chief saw the video and said "fuggit",...you can go on back to work if you want to".
I think that was the correct call to make on the matter.
Anyone notice that @ 3:21 just after the first gun shot the standing cop on the left kicks the cop on the ground right in the face?
Why no blue lights? Do these cops not even own a set of cuffs? Fk! What melee. I've been in some brawls at at NCO clubs but you have to start cuffing folk. I think once the spray was introduced the cops were diminished and resorted to deadly force.
Pavlovian response. It is the assumption that anyone on the ground is a civilian.
I see our resident cop hater had to put his two cents in.
I agree that it's easy to second guess and I agree that there was a fight coming but when the two officers arrived they were approaching when the order to separate them was announced in a loud and confrontational tone and the father then said thats not going to happen. As the approaching officer reaches them he puts hands on one and it's on. Waiting for them to actually reach the family and letting the arriving officers time to see the cast and assess the situation before trying to separate them may have given them the time and information to realize they needed more help. It had to be overwhelming once the fight started and trying to keep track of it was impossible for them. Three more officers there before the fight started would have been much better and I think they blew that chance by being too aggressive too quickly. Bottom line is that the responsibility for the fight and the death rests solely with the family but we're not discussing just how criminally stupid the family was but the professionalism and competence of the officers in responding. I don't think any of the officers did anything punishable wrong but I do think they missed big chances for a better result by being aggressive and rushing.
Fair enough Daveinjax, I hear you, and hindsight is always 20/20,
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As the approaching officer reaches them he puts hands on one and it's on.
About this though I would argue that officer did not want the derelict to get behind him since he was responding to a call for immediate backup for combative persons and they were still outnumbered. Suppose he'd have let that guy go by and got clocked from behind? Or suppose he'd been armed and stuck a shank as he came behind the officer? That perp should have just stopped instead of being combative, I think he had every right to stop him from getting behind him.
I 'chased' (escourted) prisoners and was inside guard for prisoners waiting court martial while in the USMC. I learned then that there was no way I could do that in the civilian world!
35 years later I worked security at the Bufflao Chip Campground for the Sturgis Ralley. My USMC attitude returned. I should have never accepted that job. Good thing it only lasted a week or I would have surely gone to jail for over-reacting. Nothing like drunken bikers who thought they could take on the world and those on all sorts of mind altering drugs to push my buttons.
Eyeball , I don't know about Arizona law but in Florida the whole family could be charged with murder I believe. Here , if some dies while you are participating in the crime you can be charged with their death even if you were not the trigger man. You could be waiting in the getaway car outside and you're still on the hook for the murder. In Florida they all could be put away for life if they had participated in assaulting the officers.
Anyone notice that @ 3:21 just after the first gun shot the standing cop on the left kicks the cop on the ground right in the face?
Why no blue lights? Do these cops not even own a set of cuffs? Fk! What melee. I've been in some brawls at at NCO clubs but you have to start cuffing folk. I think once the spray was introduced the cops were diminished and resorted to deadly force.
Pavlovian response. It is the assumption that anyone on the ground is a civilian.
I see our resident cop hater had to put his two cents in.
Not a cop hater at all. I didn't say there was anything wrong with officers taking that view or action did I?
Proof an ASP is the second worst tool ever given to LE. And I agree, they showed a lot more restraint than they should've in shooting a few more of them.
Fair enough Daveinjax, I hear you, and hindsight is always 20/20,
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As the approaching officer reaches them he puts hands on one and it's on.
About this though I would argue that officer did not want the derelict to get behind him since he was responding to a call for immediate backup for combative persons and they were still outnumbered. Suppose he'd have let that guy go by and got clocked from behind? Or suppose he'd been armed and stuck a shank as he came behind the officer? That perp should have just stopped instead of being combative, I think he had every right to stop him from getting behind him.
Or what if the derelicts vehicle was just a giant IED and they were luring as many officers as possible in to the kill zone. All the more reason for agencies to get MRAPs.
Eyeball , I don't know about Arizona law but in Florida the whole family could be charged with murder I believe. Here , if some dies while you are participating in the crime you can be charged with their death even if you were not the trigger man. You could be waiting in the getaway car outside and you're still on the hook for the murder. In Florida they all could be put away for life if they had participated in assaulting the officers.
Darn. Now what am I going to do for fun on a Friday night?
in arizona, you can be charged, if participant in an event that results in murder charges being filed.
It was convenient where it happened in the sense the county jail is real close.
This is not the type of thing that typically happens in cottonwood, az. and i am sure the responding officers were to some extent caught off guard.
Having been in a situation where at the time another officer and I were facing about 12 drunk bikers with weapons, faced them down, and arrested all of them, I can tell you the pucker factor is pretty high. Second guessing is just that.
As to the alaska bush people, jerome is just right up the hill. An original mining town, now kind of hippy center, draws a lot of wierd people.
I went back and watched it over and over and there is so much going on I can hardly keep track of it and I can back the video up. I can't tell what is happening in front of the center approaching officer but the far officer tackles the aggressive son who is putting his finger in the face of the officer on the far left. Don't know what was happening but all the officers are moving in at that point but they're outnumbered and I'd have tried to stall for time and help. If walmart security guy hadn't joined in it could have been a lot worse for the cops.
Wrassel with the cops for their gun you usually win a stupid prize.
I only have two questions, what the hell are the Alaska Bush people doing in Arizona? And does the Discovery channel know about this?
Definitely in the "Win stupid prizes" category.
So, has anyone figured out if the Bush folks were drunk, on meth, or just pain stupid?
As for charging them all with Felony Murder, I'm ok with that. I don't see any societal benefit to having these Bush Gypsies wandering the country.
Yes, good to charge all civilians on scene with a crime, but under no circumstances charge all police on scene no matter their actions or for what ever they claim in the after action reports.
I went back and watched it over and over and there is so much going on I can hardly keep track of it and I can back the video up. I can't tell what is happening in front of the center approaching officer but the far officer tackles the aggressive son who is putting his finger in the face of the officer on the far left. Don't know what was happening but all the officers are moving in at that point but they're outnumbered and I'd have tried to stall for time and help. If walmart security guy hadn't joined in it could have been a lot worse for the cops.
Here's a slowed down version with commentary from the chief. I have not watched it (at work) but my brother says it's good and you can tell what's going on better:
I went back and watched it over and over and there is so much going on I can hardly keep track of it and I can back the video up. I can't tell what is happening in front of the center approaching officer but the far officer tackles the aggressive son who is putting his finger in the face of the officer on the far left. Don't know what was happening but all the officers are moving in at that point but they're outnumbered and I'd have tried to stall for time and help. If walmart security guy hadn't joined in it could have been a lot worse for the cops.
Here's a slowed down version with commentary from the chief. I have not watched it (at work) but my brother says it's good and you can tell what's going on better:
Yes, the leader never lies. I doubt Chief Flynn could have done any better.
Anyone notice after the one officer shoots the guy on top of the officer on the ground, another lunatic is fighting over the officers gun, the officer pulls his gun away, and even after being shot has the sense to clear a malfunction and re-engage?
Anyone notice after the one officer shoots the guy on top of the officer on the ground, another lunatic is fighting over the officers gun, the officer pulls his gun away, and even after being shot has the sense to clear a malfunction and re-engage?
GW, I didn't watch it as close as you did, but here's what I saw.
I saw several officers approach what looked like a Gypsie camp. Based on the officer demeanor, it appeared they intended to ask some questions, and conduct an investigation in a calm reasonable manner. Then the Gypsies just go Nucking Futs.
I would of liked to have seen the officers attempt to form up and peal the gypsies off one at a time and cuff them, but I doubt this small departments received much in the way of psudo-riot training, and even then, it may have been tough for them to pull it off, especially after one of their own was on the ground.
Overall, it was a tough situation and I suspect many departments will look to this video for possible lessons.
Did you listen to the audio? As the other officers arrive (car dash cam view was from), that officer exits his vehicle and says they need to separate them for questioning, then you can hear the patriarch of the bunch saying they're not separating anyone and the fighting begins.
Tough to train for every situation. I'll bet the officer with the ASP was wishing he had 4 feet of hickory instead.
Back in the 90's I was a PR24 instructor and ground fighting techniques instructor. There should have been a lot of broken forearms? A man isn't much inclined to fight once you shatter his arms.
Did you listen to the audio? As the other officers arrive (car dash cam view was from), that officer exits his vehicle and says they need to separate them for questioning, then you can hear the patriarch of the bunch saying they're not separating anyone and the fighting begins.
Tough to train for every situation. I'll bet the officer with the ASP was wishing he had 4 feet of hickory instead.
My volume was down at the beginning of the video, so no I didn't hear it, but I'd say it support my hypothesis that the officers were trying to conduct a low key investigation when the Bush Gypsies went off.
Yes, 4 foot hickory and shield would of been much preferred for that situation, but I don't think anyone had much time to make it back to their vehicles....
I was surprised the officers managed to bag all 7 belligerents, so someone came through with a plan.
Back in the 90's I was a PR24 instructor and ground fighting techniques instructor. There should have been a lot of broken forearms? A man isn't much inclined to fight once you shatter his arms.
As you probably already know, PR24's are pretty much a thing of the past and were replaced by the mostly worthless ASP. Whoever came up with the ASP should be severely beat about the head and genitals with one!
Did you listen to the audio? As the other officers arrive (car dash cam view was from), that officer exits his vehicle and says they need to separate them for questioning, then you can hear the patriarch of the bunch saying they're not separating anyone and the fighting begins.
Tough to train for every situation. I'll bet the officer with the ASP was wishing he had 4 feet of hickory instead.
My volume was down at the beginning of the video, so no I didn't hear it, but I'd say it support my hypothesis that the officers were trying to conduct a low key investigation when the Bush Gypsies went off.
Yes, 4 foot hickory and shield would of been much preferred for that situation, but I don't think anyone had much time to make it back to their vehicles....
I was surprised the officers managed to bag all 7 belligerents, so someone came through with a plan.
Nice move to say you didn't hear something, but then claim what you didn't hear supports your position. Can I use that one?
Back in the 90's I was a PR24 instructor and ground fighting techniques instructor. There should have been a lot of broken forearms? A man isn't much inclined to fight once you shatter his arms.
As you probably already know, PR24's are pretty much a thing of the past and were replaced by the mostly worthless ASP. Whoever came up with the ASP should be severely beat about the head and genitals with one!
I never had a problem with the ASP. Matter of fact i've seen acoupke of altercations where they were the deciding factor. You break a man's femur, he don't wanna fight no mo
Sad situation indeed when folks blame the people trying to protect them instead of the criminals. Take the side of transient religious nutbags that attack police officers after strong-arming a female employee of Wal-Mart. It wasn't relatively calm, that's why backup was called. The derelicts pushed down a special needs female employee in a public store. Hell yes cops were called. 2 show up to investigate and a nutjob family of 9 becomes combative, they call for backup. Backup arrives and the derelicts start fighting instead of cooperating.
If only you had been there to save the day.
The police were not the ones being "unprofessional." Those "Keystone Cops" have little kids and wives and families too, just like you. They are good guys. My little brother is one of them. His wife and I have elk tags together this year. I'm glad he got to come home to his wife and kids after that sh*t. His little girl, my niece, turns one year old tomorrow. She'd melt your heart, cute as a button.
Tell you what though... Those two big boys were dropping some bombs on each other for a minute there. Hard to watch the background with " thirilla in vanilla" going on.
By the end, I was getting pissed by the one kid who kept getting up! I was ready to shoot him, I guess cuffing would have been better.
AAR, would have been better to back off when they started getting frisky, until the whole posse showed up.
Midnight, pretty hard to round up backup from other jurisdictions in that neighborhood, good thing they had the shift change going for them (internally).
I am sure the malefactors were cut some slack because they were white and christian, black muslims wouldn't have lasted 3 weeks at the cottonwood Walmart
Probably wouldn't have made any money and left!
I think the family is nutz, as in mentally ill. I don't think they represent poor whites, or people from Idaho, or even people that camp at Walmart, or panhandle.
Although I would guess that veteran hitchhikers, now days, and full time panhandlers, have a few screws loose, at least the vast majority of them.
As much as people like to bitch about cops and "militarization" of cops (and I occasionally slip into that way of thinking myself, if not posting) is that in general, a much wider swath of local small town cops, are more experienced, and more well trained, than they would have been 40 years ago. Standards are higher, for entry, education, training, procedures, legal, etc.
I do not know what to make of all the damn shooting lately. Is it more? Or are we hearing about it more?
I do believe there are places, like ABQ, where the department has been allowed to get off the tracks. I don't doubt there are other places just as bad or worse.
I think those Cottonwood cops have to deal with some meth heads, and some whiteboyz on heroin everyday. They are not just a bunch of Barney fifes. But the town is small enough, if the department was a mess, there would be a cleanup (I believe)
It would be hard for me to not think about pulling my gun on every traffic stop for a long time after a deal like that.
Huntinaz, glad to hear your brother is OK, hope you guys have a great hunt!
I'll bet the officer with the ASP was wishing he had 4 feet of hickory instead.
Originally Posted by gitem_12
I never had a problem with the ASP. Matter of fact i've seen acoupke of altercations where they were the deciding factor. You break a man's femur, he don't wanna fight no mo
If you listen to the commentary by the Police Chief in the second video, apparently the father did have his arm broken, but continued to fight..At different points in the brawl, the same guys was also pepper sprayed and tazered, each time returning to the fight within a minute or so..
I've never used an asp, but I am shocked how ineffective the blows appeared to be..
Given the situation, would the Officers have been justified to start cracking skulls seeing as body blow were ineffective?
Also, do the Police wear steel toe capped shoes/boots over there?
Looks like a hooptie loaded with white Negros, Neanderthals is a better word.
Just for S&Gs how would you cop haters handle the matter? They showed more restraint than I would have..
I prob'ly qualify as a "cop hater" on the forum.
If I was a cop that had been called for backup, I would have been carrying my shotgun. They could submit and be cuffed. They could run away, or they could show fight and get shot.
If I was a cop supervisor, I'd explain to my troops that I didn't buy guns for them to be getting in scuffles and wrestling matches.
As long as you've got a 12 ga. trained on them, you ARE IN CONTROL of them. They can yell and cuss, but they are no threat to you.
When you got 8 or 10 adversaries...... THAT'S a riot, and it calls for a riot gun.
I'll bet the officer with the ASP was wishing he had 4 feet of hickory instead.
Originally Posted by gitem_12
I never had a problem with the ASP. Matter of fact i've seen acoupke of altercations where they were the deciding factor. You break a man's femur, he don't wanna fight no mo
If you listen to the commentary by the Police Chief in the second video, apparently the father did have his arm broken, but continued to fight..At different points in the brawl, the same guys was also pepper sprayed and tazered, each time returning to the fight within a minute or so..
I've never used an asp, but I am shocked how ineffective the blows appeared to be..
Given the situation, would the Officers have been justified to start cracking skulls seeing as body blow were ineffective?
Also, do the Police wear steel toe capped shoes/boots over there?
All bets were off a minute into that free for all. The only person who got a solid kick to the head was the officer who ended up shot. His partner put a boot square to his face in the heat of battle.
The way I see it is, once they ignored orders and went hands on knocking officers off their feet, it's a deadly force situation. One officer goes down and out and there's a loaded gun and other weapons available.
Completely inept police officers. Pretty tuff bunch of dudes that weren't having what the dipschit coppers were selling. They are responsible for the guy dying and not giving aid to the guy that was shot. The bald cop with the asp should be put in jail for the rest of his life. The police escalated this from the get go and they are responsible for the outcome. If you think I'm wrong,follow the case and see who gets paid and who gets the blame. There are some millionaires to be in that video.
All bets were off a minute into that free for all. The only person who got a solid kick to the head was the officer who ended up shot. His partner put a boot square to his face in the heat of battle.
The way I see it is, once they ignored orders and went hands on knocking officers off their feet, it's a deadly force situation. One officer goes down and out and there's a loaded gun and other weapons available.
I think a couple of the Officers did draw and reholster their sidearms simply because they could not get in a clear safe shot..
I have only ever had to break up 3 or 4 brawls and with a four person team the SOP was for two to go forward and grab somebody and drag them out backward, while the other two covered the extraction to prevent any interference..
Thing never quite went as smoothly as that, but it worked fairly well and avoided the situation where the team ends up in four separate scuffles and is essentially out numbered..
Completely inept police officers. Pretty tuff bunch of dudes that weren't having what the dipschit coppers were selling. They are responsible for the guy dying and not giving aid to the guy that was shot. The bald cop with the asp should be put in jail for the rest of his life. The police escalated this from the get go and they are responsible for the outcome. If you think I'm wrong,follow the case and see who gets paid and who gets the blame. There are some millionaires to be in that video.
Police got sucked into the fight, but they did not start it..They tried to separate the gypsies and they refused and kicked off on the Officers..
All bets were off a minute into that free for all. The only person who got a solid kick to the head was the officer who ended up shot. His partner put a boot square to his face in the heat of battle.
When you watch it at quarter speed, he clipped the officer and got the derelict he was aiming for. Then he gets the derelict again. Watch the video I posted, you see a lot more at quarter speed.
Originally Posted by BrotherBart
Completely inept police officers. Pretty tuff bunch of dudes that weren't having what the dipschit coppers were selling. They are responsible for the guy dying and not giving aid to the guy that was shot. The bald cop with the asp should be put in jail for the rest of his life. The police escalated this from the get go and they are responsible for the outcome. If you think I'm wrong,follow the case and see who gets paid and who gets the blame. There are some millionaires to be in that video.
Those derelicts are going to jail where they belong. The only millionaire to be is you, if you can suck enough dick. I bet you make it, 5 bucks shot about what you charge?
Completely inept police officers. Pretty tuff bunch of dudes that weren't having what the dipschit coppers were selling. They are responsible for the guy dying and not giving aid to the guy that was shot. The bald cop with the asp should be put in jail for the rest of his life. The police escalated this from the get go and they are responsible for the outcome. If you think I'm wrong,follow the case and see who gets paid and who gets the blame. There are some millionaires to be in that video.
Police got sucked into the fight, but they did not start it..They tried to separate the gypsies and they refused and kicked off on the Officers..
Absolutely 100% the cops are completely responsible the that fracas. Those people have been in the area a long time with out trouble that I am aware of. Friendly easy going is what is heard.
No idea what the employee problem was, but without a doubt the fight in the parking lot that lead to a death was caused by the police's overbearing forceful actions.
Any one of the fighting males could have been justifiably killed. There were 7 people begging for suicide by cop. Only one lost his life. You cop haters should actually like this video. Those officers are good men, all of them.
Absolutely 100% the cops are completely responsible the that fracas. Those people have been in the area a long time with out trouble that I am aware of. Friendly easy going is what is heard.
No idea what the employee problem was, but without a doubt the fight in the parking lot that lead to a death was caused by the police's overbearing forceful actions.
They shoved a mentally handicapped female employee to the ground who was trying to access the restroom they were occupying. Friendly and easy going, video totally supports that. Some of you guys are unbelievable.
All bets were off a minute into that free for all. The only person who got a solid kick to the head was the officer who ended up shot. His partner put a boot square to his face in the heat of battle.
When you watch it at quarter speed, he clipped the officer and got the derelict he was aiming for. Then he gets the derelict again. Watch the video I posted, you see a lot more at quarter speed.
Originally Posted by BrotherBart
Completely inept police officers. Pretty tuff bunch of dudes that weren't having what the dipschit coppers were selling. They are responsible for the guy dying and not giving aid to the guy that was shot. The bald cop with the asp should be put in jail for the rest of his life. The police escalated this from the get go and they are responsible for the outcome. If you think I'm wrong,follow the case and see who gets paid and who gets the blame. There are some millionaires to be in that video.
Those derelicts are going to jail where they belong. The only millionaire to be is you, if you can suck enough dick. I bet you make it, 5 bucks shot about what you charge?
Yep, your one of the cop brother's aren't you? Birds of a feather
I look for a reason to find fault in a cop's actions in these kinds of videos.
I can't find any here - other than perhaps they should have waited for backup but I doubt they suspected the ferocity of these people at not cooperating with police questioning.
I would say those people are very lucky to only lose one family member (not sure what happened to the guy gutshot) given their continual "don't shoot me" then attack mode they were doing.
Because 99% of agencies have gone to ASP's for convenience, which is a mistake, IMO.
Not convenience. Lawyers convinced juries a long time ago that hitting people with a hickory "club" was mean. Next it was asps, then Tasers. Liberals won't be happy until scumbuckets are being beat to death with fairy wands.
All bets were off a minute into that free for all. The only person who got a solid kick to the head was the officer who ended up shot. His partner put a boot square to his face in the heat of battle.
When you watch it at quarter speed, he clipped the officer and got the derelict he was aiming for. Then he gets the derelict again. Watch the video I posted, you see a lot more at quarter speed.
Originally Posted by BrotherBart
Completely inept police officers. Pretty tuff bunch of dudes that weren't having what the dipschit coppers were selling. They are responsible for the guy dying and not giving aid to the guy that was shot. The bald cop with the asp should be put in jail for the rest of his life. The police escalated this from the get go and they are responsible for the outcome. If you think I'm wrong,follow the case and see who gets paid and who gets the blame. There are some millionaires to be in that video.
Those derelicts are going to jail where they belong. The only millionaire to be is you, if you can suck enough dick. I bet you make it, 5 bucks shot about what you charge?
Yep, your one of the cop brother's aren't you? Birds of a feather
Damn straight. Doubt your brother would admit the same about you. Strong-armed any retarded girls lately?
Handled wrong from the beginning. Them cops are lucky them douche-bags were retards. Them douche-bags were lucky them cops were retards... I get why a cop would want to try to intimidate a group to try and gain control. But the cops [bleep] that up from the get go. Don't get me wrong. I like/respect cops..
I tend to agree with a poster earlier here who said someone needed to get out of the car with a shotgun. If used properly ie fired the second someone determined deadly force, and the officer not try to fight with the cumbersome scattergun flailing along, the fight would have lasted all of 30 seconds. Slugs and buckshot put big holes and end engagements quickly.
I have tons of admiration for Officer Stearley, as you can clearly see him looking to engage a subject with his duty weapon, but can not get a clear shot so he holsters and gets back in the fight.
I also have tons of admiration for the officer who was shot. If you watch him, he not only clears a malfunction from his weapon, but the entire time he is being worked on he stands guard with his pistol at the ready. The officer was wounded but never out of the fight and not afraid to protect himself and his officers.
The biggest amount of admiration though, goes to the Wal-Mart associate who was there dropping bombs and helping the police officers when he did not need to. He can't fight for schit, but he traded blows with the other big boy and helped out immensely. I heard he received a civilian Act of Valor, and rightfully so. There is a strong possibility he saved lives that night.
Biggest thing I don't understand is why the local SO or DPS never showed up. I doubt they were THAT far out on respond time.
For you cop haters, if you A. Weren't there or B. Have never worn the badge, you need to STFU. I feel if one has never walked that thin blue line, one should not commentate on actions taken by brave men and women who volunteer their lives to protect and serve against things that go bump in the night. Protecting the lives, rights and safety of those very same people who will critique their every action, and say, based one one side of the story how it 'should' have, or say "That's not how I would have handled that situation" when it makes local paper and news the following morning. It is almost always easier to come up with a more "perfect" solution to the situation the following morning while sipping coffee on the couch of your home after a full nights peaceful rest.
"For you cop haters, if you A. Weren't there or B. Have never worn the badge, you need to STFU. I feel if one has never walked that thin blue line, one should not commentate on actions taken by brave men and women who volunteer their lives to protect and serve against things that go bump in the night."
I'm the "cop hater" who offered the "shotgun solution".
But, you're right........... we should all shut up on these type threads and let you HEROES have the floor.
I tend to agree with a poster earlier here who said someone needed to get out of the car with a shotgun. If used properly ie fired the second someone determined deadly force, and the officer not try to fight with the cumbersome scattergun flailing along, the fight would have lasted all of 30 seconds. Slugs and buckshot put big holes and end engagements quickly.
I have tons of admiration for Officer Stearley, as you can clearly see him looking to engage a subject with his duty weapon, but can not get a clear shot so he holsters and gets back in the fight.
I also have tons of admiration for the officer who was shot. If you watch him, he not only clears a malfunction from his weapon, but the entire time he is being worked on he stands guard with his pistol at the ready. The officer was wounded but never out of the fight and not afraid to protect himself and his officers.
The biggest amount of admiration though, goes to the Wal-Mart associate who was there dropping bombs and helping the police officers when he did not need to. He can't fight for schit, but he traded blows with the other big boy and helped out immensely. I heard he received a civilian Act of Valor, and rightfully so. There is a strong possibility he saved lives that night.
Biggest thing I don't understand is why the local SO or DPS never showed up. I doubt they were THAT far out on respond time.
For you cop haters, if you A. Weren't there or B. Have never worn the badge, you need to STFU. I feel if one has never walked that thin blue line, one should not commentate on actions taken by brave men and women who volunteer their lives to protect and serve against things that go bump in the night. Protecting the lives, rights and safety of those very same people who will critique their every action, and say, based one one side of the story how it 'should' have, or say "That's not how I would have handled that situation" when it makes local paper and news the following morning. It is almost always easier to come up with a more "perfect" solution to the situation the following morning while sipping coffee on the couch of your home after a full nights peaceful rest.
Brother I need your help the next time an officer who was forced to commit rape or confiscate cash/property for their personal use comes up. You and I know that was all the officer could do at that moment and it is wrong for those who have never been police to say it was anything other than the correct action.
Here's the deal. Was a crime committed initially? Yes. Simple assault by one person against a Walmart employee. That person needed to be pulled out. The instant that any other person interfered with that happening that person is under arrest. Handcuffs are much easier to sell that force on. Dad was the leader. "May, I talk to you sir. Please, everyone just wait your turn...your all going to have a chance to tell your side, I promise. SIR, your son is being accused of simple assault on an employee of the store. I need him to go over there and speak to officer ssmith and make a statement. If everything is above board we are good and y'all can be on your way, alright? Separate the son. Now I know your all upset and this isn't what you had planned tonight, please bear with me and we will get this over with and you can be on your way. Officer smith is taking your brothers stament. Did anyone else here actually see what happened? ..great. Could you PLEASE come over here and tell officer Jones what you saw only. Thank you."
The Walmart employee needs to be in the back of a patrol car. The primary suspect is separated. Dad is calmed and in turn back up is very near.
" Sir, may I speak to again pleas? I am going to have a few other officers come take ataments to help get everyone's story and help your family get on your way tonight, OK? Great, if you'll just tell your folks. I don't want them to be alarmed by a bunch of police cars (laugh, smile, hand on shoulder)" You've got to use psychology. Its selling handcuffs. Does it make you look weak? I never though so. It is an easier transition, being nice. The way the cops rolled in there was no way to deescalate into any form of mutual respect and way to open a line of communication. Aggression begets aggression.
And the truth is, you have no idea who your rolling up on. What they may have just done, what warrants they may have. They may have just got out of prison on a second bid. They might have a bomb or a body in the trunk. They may be some whacked out group of doomsday cultists. You don't know. Might be a fkin ninja UFC ultimate warrior. You don't know. Being nice works. I used to play dumb redneck Barney Phief. I didn't want them to see me as a threat. I wanted them to think I was the Forrest Bump of LE. I can't tell you how many dumfounded people have set in the back seat, cuffed, with their drugs bagged and tagged, shaking their heads in disbelief when the veil was lifted and the figured out the ruse.
For you cop haters, if you A. Weren't there or B. Have never worn the badge, you need to STFU. I feel if one has never walked that thin blue line, one should not commentate on actions taken by brave men and women who volunteer their lives to protect and serve against things that go bump in the night. Protecting the lives, rights and safety of those very same people who will critique their every action, and say, based one one side of the story how it 'should' have, or say "That's not how I would have handled that situation" when it makes local paper and news the following morning. It is almost always easier to come up with a more "perfect" solution to the situation the following morning while sipping coffee on the couch of your home after a full nights peaceful rest.
that is horseshit - if you can't do the job, then f'ing quit.
In this case I'm completely in support of the police but there are too many instances where cops just overstep their position and if you're gonna sit there and tell the public at large they shouldn't comment on it because they've never been a cop, no one is going to listen.
This idea that cops should be given a free pass because they risk their lives ain't happening. Its a volunteer paid position, they know the rules going in.
Biggest thing I don't understand is why the local SO or DPS never showed up. I doubt they were THAT far out on respond time
could have been, cottonwood is 20 miles from the freeway, and there are not that many dps in that area any given time. As to the SO, I actually did patrol that area at one time for the SO. Often times any backup I had was even further away. It was a long time ago, but some times there were only a couple of us for a county the size of some states.
DPS did show up, the video is 8 minutes long. The vehicle recording left to take the wounded officer to the hospital. Fighting commenced and help showed up and got the derelicts put away.
Ringworm: This started before the vehicle recording got there too. I wasn't there and it's not on video but we have no reason to believe polite requests to separate weren't met with combativeness. Those derelicts were not cooperating from the get go, that's why backup was called. When the recording vehicle gets there those derelicts are already boiling for a fight.
Put the shoe on the other foot. The public has responsibility too. They committed a crime and were confronted by authority. They could just have easily said "Hey officers, this is a misunderstanding, we didn't know..." or whatever their story is. Instead they said "you will not separate us" and started fighting with the police. I can't see blame going any other way in this instance, the derelicts were the ones being combative and the blame is pretty squarely on them.
During your Barney Fife routine, if somebody didn't buy it and started resisting arrest I'm guessing you didn't give up. If you had the authority to separate for questioning or make an arrest then I bet that's what happened in the end.
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In this case I'm completely in support of the police but there are too many instances where cops just overstep their position and if you're gonna sit there and tell the public at large they shouldn't comment on it because they've never been a cop, no one is going to listen.
This idea that cops should be given a free pass because they risk their lives ain't happening. Its a volunteer paid position, they know the rules going in.
I agree with you, one of the great things about this country is that the police force is subject to follow rules and isn't out of control. The public should be able to talk about it, and there are definite instances where they overstep their bounds and that's not OK.
The police have rules to follow and so does the public. My argument here is that the public knows the rules and know what authority the police have. Police ask you to separate for questioning, that's what happens. Everyone knows that what you DON'T do is start a fight with police and then attempt to gain control of their weapons. The police have the right to use force during times of resisting arrest or other assault directed at them and this is not a secret. Simple sh*t. Those derelicts should have complied and they'd all be alive. Instead they chose to fight, that's on them. It was their actions that got them where they are. Cops didn't provoke anything, they knew the score. Everyone here knows that if you swing at the cops they will be met with force.
Everything I ever needed to know about police work I learned from Sun Tzu. He said something to the effect of... To surround the enemy entirely is to invite a battle to the death, always give your enemy an escape but make it the route you control to your advantage." And Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.”
"For you cop haters, if you A. Weren't there or B. Have never worn the badge, you need to STFU. I feel if one has never walked that thin blue line, one should not commentate on actions taken by brave men and women who volunteer their lives to protect and serve against things that go bump in the night."
I'm the "cop hater" who offered the "shotgun solution".
But, you're right........... we should all shut up on these type threads and let you HEROES have the floor.
I wasn't there, and I've never worn a badge, but if I see reason to criticize a cop I will because this is America, and I have a constitutional right to do so.
In this instance, I don't see any major reason to criticized, but of those who do, please respect their right to express their opinion. When that opinion is wrong, such as in this instance, just show they why it is wrong....
To bad Ringworm or some one like him was not the lead there, as there is an excellent chance this encounter would have never been heard of outside of Cottonwood.
My question is, why, when the police were not succeeding in subduing the family, did the cops not escalate their physicality?
There should have been heads knocked with the asp. Smack some of these guys right across the ear and they would go down. There should have been some knees taken out. Especially the big guy who was trying to help, he easily could have destroyed the dad's knee when the dad re-engaged and the walmart employee came back in from the side. I believe some of the LEOs also had that opportunity when they engaged family members who were attacking other LEOs.
I agree the tactics of the police might not have been up to snuff when dealing with a combative group like this. But I think they did ok. I am honestly surprised more family members weren't shot. Amazed really after the first shot was fired, more LEOs didn't follow suit and I would not have blamed them one bit.
I agree with the idea a shotgun would have helped tremendously, but what police expects a simple assault in a walmart to require a shotgun?
The combination of a police requirement for clean backgrounds and college education ...in addition to the socialization experiment that there is no justifiable reason to use violence has produced in this generation a crop of "men" who have never been in a real fist fight. The best blows landed in the entire mele were by the fat loss prevention officer.
The combination of a police requirement for clean backgrounds and college education ...in addition to the socialization experiment that there is no justifiable reason to use violence has produced in this generation a crop of "men" who have never been in a real fist fight. The best blows landed in the entire melee were by the fat loss prevention officer.
I can see that.I believe it also might stem from the incessant soft-touch training. Don't want to be seen as brutes. Don't want to offend the sensibilities of the masses so the police are constantly drilled to be extra cautious in their use of force.
To me it is just like the constant training kids receive to not go to blows when dealing with someone attacking them or bullying them. But when these kids have finally reached that tipping point and turn loose, they often cannot control their response and go overboard. Just like what we see with some police going over the top when they reach their tipping point.
The combination of a police requirement for clean backgrounds and college education ...in addition to the socialization experiment that there is no justifiable reason to use violence has produced in this generation a crop of "men" who have never been in a real fist fight. The best blows landed in the entire mele were by the fat loss prevention officer.
I have never been in that position these LEOs found themselves in. But I can tell you, watching that, my BP shot through the roof and I was hollering at the fat walmart guy, "Take out his knee!". Yelling at cops, "strike them upside the fricken head!". And finally, "Shoot! Shoot them! Drill him!".
I have nothing against these cops. Think they did admirably given the entire context, but I also think things could have gone a lot better, but they most always could have when looking back in time.
I've been in knockdown drag outs at several NCO clubs. Drunk Marines fighting drunk Marines who join forces when MPs show up. And we were under orders to go light. Broken bones effect deployment. Sometimes you are better off taking a few blows to the back and you and a partner beating one down, cuffing them and moving on to another a doing the same. Didn't seem like much teamwork going on. A line needed to be drawn. It should have been more than obvious that after the first swing those folks were not going to comply and that they were going to have to be restrained en mass. SOP for single or multiple suspects should have been transitioned to mob/riot type scenario. Regroup, draw a lone of demarcation and force them to attract fronaly...circle the wagons, so to speak. The big cans of OC should have been brought out APAS!!!
Sometimes you are better off taking a few blows to the back and you and a partner beating one down, cuffing them and moving on to another a doing the same. Didn't seem like much teamwork going on. A line needed to be drawn.
SOP for single or multiple suspects should have been transitioned to mob/riot type scenario. Regroup, draw a lone of demarcation and force them to attract frontally...circle the wagons, so to speak. The big cans of OC should have been brought out APAS!!!
Like I mentioned before, I don't think this department had been through much NCO Club/Riot training....
Obviously impossible to train for every imaginable scenario. But the dojo ain't the street and most rubber mat black belts find out the hard way what happen on asphalt is a total different game.
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I should have never accepted that job. Good thing it only lasted a week or I would have surely gone to jail for over-reacting. Nothing like drunken bikers who thought they could take on the world and those on all sorts of mind altering drugs to push my buttons.
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