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Not that I will buy another Ford anyway, but this is bad.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...iftng-us-car-production-mexico/90355146/

Quote
CEO Mark Fields told investors the move is part of plans to make production simpler and less expensive.

Ford is shifting all North American small-car production from the U.S. to Mexico, CEO Mark Fields told investors today in Dearborn.

"Over the next two to three years, we will have migrated all of our small-car production to Mexico and out of the United States," Fields said.

The industry has known for decades that domestic manufacturers struggle to make a profit on small cars. Shifting their assembly to Mexico can reduce costs to a point. But some of these cars are over-engineered.

For example, Field said the current Ford Focus can be ordered in 300 different configurations of options and colors. Ford wants to reduce that to 30, which will make the production process simpler and less expensive.

But Americans prefer larger vehicles, especially pickups and higher-riding SUVs and crossover vehicles for their personal use.

The future of smaller cars in the U.S. may depend on the ability to electrify their powertrains and introduce them to ride-sharing fleets where they can generate revenue from fares paid by multiple riders.

Along those lines, Fields and other Ford executives Wednesday outlined an aggressive plan to invest $4.5 billion over the next four years. These will include new models in segments such as commercial vehicles, trucks, SUVs and performance vehicles.

Ford also reiterated its commitment to developing an autonomous vehicle by 2021. The company believes that autonomous vehicles could account for up to 20% of vehicle sales by 2030.

Ford continues to present its corporate strategy to more than 100 analyst and investors throughout the day. The meeting comes as the U.S. auto industry's six-year recovery is cooling, while the U.K.'s exit from the European Union has presented a new challenge to Ford's rebound in Europe.
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Not that I will buy another Ford anyway, but this is bad.

http://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...iftng-us-car-production-mexico/90355146/

Quote
CEO Mark Fields told investors the move is part of plans to make production simpler and less expensive.

Ford is shifting all North American small-car production from the U.S. to Mexico, CEO Mark Fields told investors today in Dearborn.

"Over the next two to three years, we will have migrated all of our small-car production to Mexico and out of the United States," Fields said.

The industry has known for decades that domestic manufacturers struggle to make a profit on small cars. Shifting their assembly to Mexico can reduce costs to a point. But some of these cars are over-engineered.

For example, Field said the current Ford Focus can be ordered in 300 different configurations of options and colors. Ford wants to reduce that to 30, which will make the production process simpler and less expensive.

But Americans prefer larger vehicles, especially pickups and higher-riding SUVs and crossover vehicles for their personal use.

The future of smaller cars in the U.S. may depend on the ability to electrify their powertrains and introduce them to ride-sharing fleets where they can generate revenue from fares paid by multiple riders.

Along those lines, Fields and other Ford executives Wednesday outlined an aggressive plan to invest $4.5 billion over the next four years. These will include new models in segments such as commercial vehicles, trucks, SUVs and performance vehicles.

Ford also reiterated its commitment to developing an autonomous vehicle by 2021. The company believes that autonomous vehicles could account for up to 20% of vehicle sales by 2030.

Ford continues to present its corporate strategy to more than 100 analyst and investors throughout the day. The meeting comes as the U.S. auto industry's six-year recovery is cooling, while the U.K.'s exit from the European Union has presented a new challenge to Ford's rebound in Europe.


Perhaps "The Donald" can bring back the manufacturing before the wall is built? Along with bringing back Oreo production to the USA. I miss USA made Oreos.

Geno

With all of Trumps talk about building an economic wall with Mexico, you have to wonder if the top guys at Ford know something we don't.
Originally Posted by Valsdad

Perhaps "The Donald" can bring back the manufacturing before the wall is built? Along with bringing back Oreo production to the USA. I miss USA made Oreos.

Geno



WTF?!?!

Oreos are NOT made in America any more? When did this happen?!

Okay, Muslims immigrating I can take.
BLM hypocrisy, I can manage.
Democratic/Hillary lies, a minor annoyance at most.

But Oreos not made in America?!?!?!

That's the last f*cking straw!! To arms, to arms!! Who do I shoot first?! mad mad mad
"CEO Mark Fields told investors the move is part of plans to make production simpler and less expensive."

Makes perfect sense to me...Just as long as we add a proportionate tariff to their crap being sold here..
Originally Posted by jorgeI
"CEO Mark Fields told investors the move is part of plans to make production simpler and less expensive."

Makes perfect sense to me...Just as long as we add a proportionate tariff to their crap being sold here..
And then some!!!

But what politicians are going to oppose him? They're too busy asking him for campaign contributions.
Course, this will lead to fleets of self driving cars - all made in Mexico.

The 21st Century is not turning out like I had hoped.
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by Valsdad

Perhaps "The Donald" can bring back the manufacturing before the wall is built? Along with bringing back Oreo production to the USA. I miss USA made Oreos.

Geno



WTF?!?!

Oreos are NOT made in America any more? When did this happen?!

Okay, Muslims immigrating I can take.
BLM hypocrisy, I can manage.
Democratic/Hillary lies, a minor annoyance at most.

But Oreos not made in America?!?!?!

That's the last f*cking straw!! To arms, to arms!! Who do I shoot first?! mad mad mad
The female CEO of Kraft foods broke the Chicago cookie makers union by eliminating their 600 jobs and moving the whole thing to Mexico. She's a ruthless bitch from what I've read.
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The female CEO of Kraft foods broke the Chicago cookie makers union by eliminating their 600 jobs and moving the whole thing to Mexico. She's a ruthless bitch from what I've read.

Something else to blame on Chicago..
My work car, a 1997 Escort Wagon, was made in Mexico. I hope all the cars I will own will be as tough and reliable as it is.
Having said that, I wish more manufacturing would stay in the U.S. since we seem to have 94m people who need jobs.
moving to Mexico turned Volkswagen into junk
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The female CEO of Kraft foods broke the Chicago cookie makers union by eliminating their 600 jobs and moving the whole thing to Mexico. She's a ruthless bitch from what I've read.

Something else to blame on Chicago..


Nope,the unions. All of the recent moves out of the USA were union based companies. You can't pay the overinflated salaries union workers get for not working and producing and at the same time keep a company in business.
Blue Oval Tijuana Taxi....



So the Ford Fiesta will come with a piñata, a burrito, a kilo of cocaine and a Fast & Furious weapon under the back seat??
if Ford and the other American makers don't get rid of the UAW, they will collapse. The unions, the EPA, OSHA, and taxes are what is driving all manufacturing off shore.
Ford must be counting on an H-Dog win... blush

DF
I work in Mexico every other week. My company is a food processor, it is easier for us to produce in the country we are selling in. We are growing/adding inside the US as well as in Europe.

Anyways, drive by the monstrous GM plant last Thursday. Mile and half long or so? Hundreds of GM trucks staged for shipping. Probably 50 buses parked there for transporting workers to/from the plant. I asked the cabbie what the wages were there. He guessed $120/week. That's on par with the other manufacturing in the park our plant is. With Pirelli, vw, and all the other Japanese and German manufacturing plants there. Breakfast buffet at the hotel looks like a tour of the world.
Originally Posted by Cheesy
I work in Mexico every other week. My company is a food processor, it is easier for us to produce in the country we are selling in. We are growing/adding inside the US as well as in Europe.

Anyways, drive by the monstrous GM plant last Thursday. Mile and half long or so? Hundreds of GM trucks staged for shipping. Probably 50 buses parked there for transporting workers to/from the plant. I asked the cabbie what the wages were there. He guessed $120/week. That's on par with the other manufacturing in the park our plant is. With Pirelli, vw, and all the other Japanese and German manufacturing plants there. Breakfast buffet at the hotel looks like a tour of the world.


$3/hr vs. $34/hr + benefits.

People can get all pissed off about shipping jobs overseas, but the truth is manufacturing follows labor and energy costs. Once one maker does, the other must follow or lose the competitive balance.

Making jobs in Mexico does keep Mexicans on that side of the border. wink

Truth is, I'd much rather have these jobs here. Would they be here at $22 per hour instead of $34? I don;'t know, but it is very expensive to move production.
Always keep in mind that Trump has everything he sells built in the lowest cost country so this trend will not change if Trump were to win. The man is who he is period, history show us that to be true.
Who's working in those plants. Looks to me all the Mexicans are in the USA. Hasbeen
Originally Posted by hatari
Originally Posted by Cheesy
I work in Mexico every other week. My company is a food processor, it is easier for us to produce in the country we are selling in. We are growing/adding inside the US as well as in Europe.

Anyways, drive by the monstrous GM plant last Thursday. Mile and half long or so? Hundreds of GM trucks staged for shipping. Probably 50 buses parked there for transporting workers to/from the plant. I asked the cabbie what the wages were there. He guessed $120/week. That's on par with the other manufacturing in the park our plant is. With Pirelli, vw, and all the other Japanese and German manufacturing plants there. Breakfast buffet at the hotel looks like a tour of the world.


$3/hr vs. $34/hr + benefits.

People can get all pissed off about shipping jobs overseas, but the truth is manufacturing follows labor and energy costs. Once one maker does, the other must follow or lose the competitive balance.

Making jobs in Mexico does keep Mexicans on that side of the border. wink

Truth is, I'd much rather have these jobs here. Would they be here at $22 per hour instead of $34? I don;'t know, but it is very expensive to move production.


To add to that, this is a city/area of 2Million plus residents. Lots of industry (mostly foreign). Industrial parks are top notch, manicured, beautfiul places. Better than most parks I've seen domestically.

The hotel area we stay at is top notch, as are the restaurants around the hotel. The 30 minute ride between the two is total slums.

With our expansion we'd hire 8 workers, and 7 would quit. There is just so much competition there now for workers that they can get choosy in where they work. We have had a plant there for 20+ years. The old plant was very manual process, very simple electronic stuff. The new plant is top notch, high level automation. It takes a completely different level of worker to run that equipment as well as to maintain it. That drives up the wages, which drives up the competition. Vicious circle.
Did the article say anyone would be losing their job in the U.S.? No, it didn't. That's because this move will pave the way for production of the new Ford Bronco and Ford Ranger in the U.S.
I'll probably get tarred and feathered for saying this but:
Americans are going to have to down grade our way of life if we expect to keep up with the rest of the world. It's a global economy and a global market. It's far too easy to manufacture things in other countries and ship them here to be sold. It's just not realistic anymore for the average worker to expect that they are going to live in a 4000sqft house with 4 cars and a boat and 4 wheelers and go skiing in Jackson Hole every year with a family of 4. Janitors can't expect to live in a single family home in the suburbs. Same with McDonalds workers. They CAN expect to have the opportunity to better themselves to EARN a position in the company that will allow them those things however.

At any rate I just think the "american dream" needs to be re-evaluated.

Taxes need to be lowered as well.

I also think that corporations need to get leaner and less top heavy. Less white collar types and more blue collar types. The folks at the top need to make less in salaries and bonuses, and more of that money needs to be plowed back into the business or stored away for a rainy day.
No tar and feathers here. But not only is there a world of cheap labor out there, here come the robots.

Folks might not all agree with Fred's conclusions but he brings up some good topics to ponder. A bit of a read here but not too long. For the internet attention spans, his points are:
- Manufacturers love robots, they're cheaper in the long run and more reliable than humans.
- Ergo, more and more robots replace more and more human workers.
- Ergo, more goods are produced more cheaply.
- However, more humans are out of work.
- Without working humans, who buys the stuff robots make?

http://fredoneverything.org/ready-new-rossiters-universal-robots-toward-a-most-minimal-wage/



"Being as I am a curmudgeon, and delight in human folly and thoughts of huge asteroids, tsunamis, incurable plagues, continent-shattering volcanoes, and the Hillary administration, I follow the advance of robots with hope. They may finally end civilization as we know it. Currently they spread like kudzu. Herewith a few notes from my favorite technical publication, the Drudge Report. It may convince you that the robots are upon us like ants on a sandwich.

Navy building autonomous sub-hunting submarine. Robots deliver food to your door. China’s use of robots set to surge. Amazon uses 30,000 robots in warehouses. AMBER lab robot jogs like human. Japanese farming robots. Burger-flipping robot. World’s first sex-robot. China’s robot cop. China’s road to self-driving cars. Bloomberg uses robot story-writers. In theme park, robots make food and drinks. SCHAFT unveils new robot in Japan. Boston Dynamics has several ominous robots paid for by the Pentagon. Robot does soft-tissue surgery better than humans. Robotic KFC outlet in Shanghai. And of course everybody and his dog are working on self-driving vehicles.

People seldom click on links. This one, Atlas, from Boston Dynamics, is truly worth a click. Think of him coming through your door by night. Many similar critters exist, often in Asia.

These machines either work well or come very close, and impinge on manufacturing, delivery, war, policing, the restaurant industry, journalism, and service industries perhaps soon to include prostitution. We ought to think forethoughtedly about what to do with these machines. We won’t.

Amazon Robot

Photo: Amazon’s robots. Video. These orange devils carry heavy racks to humans who pick ordered goods from them for shipment. Amazon is working on robots that can do the picking. Who will be left? In principle, 30,000 robots can work 90,000 shifts, plus weekends. With a predictability that makes sunrise look like a long shot, the company says that the robots do not replace but “help” humans. If you believe this, I’d like to sell you stock in my venture to make radioactive dog-food on Mars.

Automation of course means more than robots. As newspaper after newspaper goes all-digital, less pulpwood will be needed to make less newsprint, pressmen will be fired, delivery trucks will no longer needed, and so on. Such ripple effects get little attention. They should.

The capitalist paradigm in which companies think only about themselves, seeking to increase productivity and reduce costs, is going to work decreasingly well. Replacing well-paid workers with robots means replacing customers with a lot of money with customers with little money. People who are not paid much do not buy much. Robots buy even less.

The first crucial question of coming decades: Who is going to buy the stuff pouring from robotic factories?

The current notion is that when a yoyo factory automates and lays off most of its workers, they will find other well-paid jobs and continue to buy yoyos. But as well-paid jobs everywhere go automated, where will the money come from to buy yoyos? Today participation in the work force is at all- time lows and we have a large and growing number of young who, unable to find good jobs, live with their parents. They are not buying houses or renting apartments. (They may, given the intellectual level of today’s young, be buying yoyos.)

Enthusiasts of the free market say that I do not understand economics, that there will always be work for people who want to work. But there isn’t. There won’t be. There is less all the time. Again, look at the falling participation in the work force, the growing numbers in part-time badly paid jobs. Short of governmentally imposed minimums, wages are determined by the market, meaning that if a robot works for a dollar an hour, a human will have to work for ninety-five cents an hour to compete , or find a job a robot can’t do–and these get scarcer.

From a businessman’s point of view, robots are superb employees. They don’t strike, demand raises, call in sick, get disgruntled and do a sloppy job, or require benefits. Building factories that are robotic from the gitgo means not having to lay workers off, which is politically easier than firing existing workers. Using robots obviates the Chinese advantage in wages, especially if America can make better robots–good for companies, but not for workers in either country. That is, production may return to the US, but jobs will not. In countries with declining populations, having robots do the work may reduce the attractiveness of importing uncivilizable bomb-chucking morons from the bush world.

A second crucial question: What will we do with people who have nothing to do? This has been a hidden problem for a long time, solved to date by child-labor laws, compulsory attendance in high school, the growth of universities as holding tanks, welfare populations, and vast bureaucracies of people who pretend to be employed. Few of these do anything productive, but are supported and kept off the job market by the rest of us. But there are limits to the capacity of Starbuck’s to soak up college graduates. (The economic fate of America may depend on our consumption of overpriced coffee.)

As time goes on and fewer and fewer people can find work, and particularly the less intelligent, something will have to give. We won’t see it coming. We never see anything coming. Businessmen will observe productivity going up and labor costs going down. What could be wrong with that? Businessmen do not concern themselves with social questions. Methinks, however, that social questions are about to concern themselves with businessmen.

As standards of living decrease, unrest will come. I will guess that much of Donald Trump’s popularity arises from the sending of factories to China by the corporations that rule America. Now the robots are going to take the remaining jobs. Economists will chatter of this principle and that curve and what Aristotle said about Veblen, but in a free market for labor, robots will win. If we have a high minimum wage, business will automate. If we have a low minimum wage, they will automate, but a few years later.

The obvious solution, one I think inevitable within a few decades unless we want a revolution, is a guaranteed minimum income, enough to live on comfortably, for everyone. Whether this is a good idea can be debated, but it seems likely to be the only idea. Capitalists will tell me that I do not understand markets, or capital flows or pricing mechanisms, and that I am against freedom. I will respond that they need to wake up and look around. And I will point out that economics has become a tedious form of Left-Right metaphysics, Keynes versus the Austrian School, capitalism versus socialism, all unconnected to onrushing reality.

What would be the effects of a guaranteed income? Godawful, I would guess. Some people, probably including those who read columns on the web, would read, listen to music, drink wine and talk with friends, hike in the Himalayas, scuba dive, and earn doctorates in physics. But most would get up every morning, bored, without purpose, anticipating just another of unending days of television, beer, tedium, no driving desire to do anything but discontent with nothing to do. Would the young even go to school? They would have no need. What has happened among the welfare populations that in effect have a guaranteed minimum income?

See? We are doomed. It warms the cockles of a curmudgeon’s heart. Whatever a cockle is."
The ford fusion I bought couple yrs ago was made in Mexico and the motor was made in Romania. I still kick myself in the ass for not buying a Toyota camry.
Meanwhile Toyota seems to be doing just fine building their cars here in the united states makes no sense at all.
So what? Does anybody have a choice anymore? All the Union workers (who drove the businesses overseas) are Democrats and all the people who own the businesses (including Trump) are Republicans.
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek
Just makes me think of when people talk [bleep] about Toyota saying "buy American." Well my Japanese truck was built in Texas. Your American car/truck was built in Mexico
Originally Posted by KentuckyMountainMan
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


You bet,

I just brought our 2003 Matrix over here from my wife's place. It's such a piece of junk. Can you believe it, we actually had to replace the clutch with only 198000 miles on it.

Oh, My '01 Tacoma only has 230000 on the odometer, I just replaced the shocks and inner tie rod ends. I get the oil analyzed every year after about 4 oil changes. It keeps coming back as "normal". Junk, I'm thinking it should come back excellent or something, normal's not good is it?

Our 86 Toyota Pick up ONLY got 250000 miles on it before I decided to rebuild the motor because the head gasket was finally going. Sure was a POS truck, that one was. I even had to change the springs and shocks at almost 300K miles. I sold it at close to 325K and it was still running a year later as I saw it in town. What a crappy truck.

Dam n, those Toyotas suck so much we just went out and bought a brand new RAV4 for my wife. I hope that one gets way more than 200000 miles before we have issues with it. I'm tired of not getting my money's worth. wink

Geno
Originally Posted by Taco280AI
Just makes me think of when people talk [bleep] about Toyota saying "buy American." Well my Japanese truck was built in Texas. Your American car/truck was built in Mexico


Very good point!
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by Valsdad

Perhaps "The Donald" can bring back the manufacturing before the wall is built? Along with bringing back Oreo production to the USA. I miss USA made Oreos.

Geno



WTF?!?!

Oreos are NOT made in America any more? When did this happen?!

Okay, Muslims immigrating I can take.
BLM hypocrisy, I can manage.
Democratic/Hillary lies, a minor annoyance at most.

But Oreos not made in America?!?!?!

That's the last f*cking straw!! To arms, to arms!! Who do I shoot first?! mad mad mad


You may want to check the RItz cracker box too, maybe the graham crackers, and a few other "goodies".

Or not, .......................you sound like you're ready to start the next Mexican-American war! laugh

Geno

PS, Bugs me a bit, or maybe more than a bit too.
Originally Posted by ltppowell
So what? Does anybody have a choice anymore? All the Union workers (who drove the businesses overseas) are Democrats and all the people who own the businesses (including Trump) are Republicans.


That's a popular belief, but it ain't necessarily so. Firstly, most corporations are publicly owned, by investors, various investment funds, non-profits, retirement funds, etc. Lots of old money people are big Dems as evidenced by the contributions they make as are most of the big money Wall Streeters and banking executives. Union organizations almost always endorse Democrats and funnel lots of money that they've sweated from their membership (75% of the dues I paid when I was a union member went to political contributions) to them, but the rank and file don't always toe the line at election time. Union wages and benefits are a factor in driving work out of the country, but taxes, eco-rules, and government-mandated health care, safety regs, anti-discrimination training etc, are huge costs that go away when manufacturing crosses the border.

Something else to ponder is why foreign-manufactured products from American companies seem to cost just as much as the stuff made here. Could it be that the real purpose for going across the border is to maximize profit, not keep prices down?
Originally Posted by Pappy348
. Could it be that the real purpose for going across the border is to maximize profit, not keep prices down?



Think about your statement carefully for a moment. With that statement, you scream at the top of your virtual lungs "I have never been a business owner" beyond a lemonade stand. The sole purpose of any business is to turn a profit. If you are not profitable, you are a charity.

Of course you want to maximize profit. Otherwise, you are a poor business leader. Jeez.
Originally Posted by KentuckyMountainMan
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


Rubbish. I have bought hundreds of thousands of tons of steel from China with perfect results. This in the oil and gas industry.
A CEO's role, every CEO, is to deliver value to the shareholder, nothing more. Oh, and yes we do live in a world, not just the US.
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Something else to ponder is why foreign-manufactured products from American companies seem to cost just as much as the stuff made here. Could it be that the real purpose for going across the border is to maximize profit, not keep prices down?


You make that sound like a bad thing. Unless you work at The People's Tractor Factory #2 that is indeed the purpose of a business.

Own your own business and you can decide how magnanimous to be with your profits and big car manufactures are hostage to many interests, although Ford is still majority owned by the Ford family. For a fascinating read of how Ford made it's way through the period of automotive meltdown I suggest Saving the Icon I learned a tremendous amount about the auto industry, how Detroit works and how evil the Democrats are.
Companies move out of the US to avoid the EPA, Unions, taxes, and business regulations.

So for all you long headed pards who hammered GMC for accepting bailouts and swearing never to buy another GMC product. Which is worse?

Moving production across the border or taking .gov money?

Based on previous posts everyone should now be buying a Toyota!! Right!!?? laugh


Originally Posted by byc
So for all you long headed pards who hammered GMC for accepting bailouts and swearing never to buy another GMC product. Which is worse?

Moving production across the border or taking .gov money?

Based on previous posts everyone should now be buying a Toyota!! Right!!?? laugh


Taking .gov money is far worse. I bought a Toyota 4Runner (in 08) and it's been a great vehicle with zero defects but my next truck will be an F-150. I will never buy another GM or Dodge/Jeep vehicle (and I have had several).

The American industrial dream is built on building (and selling) a "better" mouse trap. That trap may be more effective or cheaper. The use of .gov to create an unfair playing field in an industry as punishment for not "taking the soup" as it were isn't what I can support.
Originally Posted by Valsdad
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
Originally Posted by Valsdad

Perhaps "The Donald" can bring back the manufacturing before the wall is built? Along with bringing back Oreo production to the USA. I miss USA made Oreos.

Geno



WTF?!?!

Oreos are NOT made in America any more? When did this happen?!

Okay, Muslims immigrating I can take.
BLM hypocrisy, I can manage.
Democratic/Hillary lies, a minor annoyance at most.

But Oreos not made in America?!?!?!

That's the last f*cking straw!! To arms, to arms!! Who do I shoot first?! mad mad mad


You may want to check the RItz cracker box too, maybe the graham crackers, and a few other "goodies".

Or not, .......................you sound like you're ready to start the next Mexican-American war! laugh

Geno

PS, Bugs me a bit, or maybe more than a bit too.


Here is the Oreo replacement: hydrox are back

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by byc
So for all you long headed pards who hammered GMC for accepting bailouts and swearing never to buy another GMC product. Which is worse?

Moving production across the border or taking .gov money?

Based on previous posts everyone should now be buying a Toyota!! Right!!?? laugh




That's what I do.
they're moving their low margin production to mexico, so they can fill those plants with high margin products (trucks and SUVs) because they have less re-work, and are 2x as productive as mexico's work force. The UAW isn't going to loose any jobs, and they're actually LOOSING their 2 teir wage system (which for them is good) that means that the people that were making those small cars, who's ceiling was limited at 19/hr are able to make more money by being moved into A. tier. This will create billions and billions of dollars in construction here in the US. Our local chyrsler plant is shipping the dart to mexico, and replacing the compas with the Jeep cherokee, they are putting on a 500 worker 3rd shift, to support this, 2 suppliers are building 400,000 sq ft mfg facilities that will employ another 500 each, them moving the [bleep] boxes to mexico is allowing them to invest in their high profit, high value employees, this is why you don't hear the UAW bitching about it.
Whatever. Nobody needs to convince me why Ford beats GM, day in, day out. They just do. In every aspect.
Originally Posted by Snake River Marksman
I'll probably get tarred and feathered for saying this but:
Americans are going to have to down grade our way of life if we expect to keep up with the rest of the world. It's a global economy and a global market.


The global economy is making a global standard of living which is going to suck for the average American.
Originally Posted by Whiptail
Originally Posted by Snake River Marksman
I'll probably get tarred and feathered for saying this but:
Americans are going to have to down grade our way of life if we expect to keep up with the rest of the world. It's a global economy and a global market.


The global economy is making a global standard of living which is going to suck for the average American.


Yes.
Maybe we should all move to Mexico.
That wouldn't be that much different than moving to America 500 years ago...other than the neighbors.
Originally Posted by Whiptail
Originally Posted by Snake River Marksman
I'll probably get tarred and feathered for saying this but:
Americans are going to have to down grade our way of life if we expect to keep up with the rest of the world. It's a global economy and a global market.


The global economy is making a global standard of living which is going to suck for the average American.


So if you have children you should be driving them to be greater than average, right?
Originally Posted by Taco280AI
Just makes me think of when people talk [bleep] about Toyota saying "buy American." Well my Japanese truck was built in Texas. Your American car/truck was built in Mexico



Nope, Louisville, Kentucky.
my f250 was built in louisville and my subaru outback was built in indiana.
Originally Posted by EdM
A CEO's role, every CEO, is to deliver value to the shareholder, nothing more. Oh, and yes we do live in a world, not just the US.


no argument from me, but they also have an obligation as an American citizen - not to the American worker but to the future strength and reliability of this country.

You may build cars in Mexico but you sell them to Americans. CEOs are overvalued and overpaid, especially when their only solution to maximizing profits is not to innovate but to outsource.
Ford and others need that cheap labor for a huge profit margin. How else are they going pay those Union retirements.
Originally Posted by KFWA
Originally Posted by EdM
A CEO's role, every CEO, is to deliver value to the shareholder, nothing more. Oh, and yes we do live in a world, not just the US.


no argument from me, but they also have an obligation as an American citizen - not to the American worker but to the future strength and reliability of this country.

You may build cars in Mexico but you sell them to Americans. CEOs are overvalued and overpaid, especially when their only solution to maximizing profits is not to innovate but to outsource.


Seriously? An obligation to American's? The world wide shareholders don't buy that (pun intended). Ford has not innovated? In my mind they are the most innovative US car company these days.
I said an obligation as an American citizen, not to Americans

This idea that corporations have an obligation to maximize shareholder profit is actually relatively new - Milton Friedman pushed the concept in the 70's that a corporations only obligation to society is to increase its profits. This also led the way to justify pay salary to stock prices.

Compare that to the Business Roundtable who was saying

"“Corporations have a responsibility, first of all, to make available to the public quality goods and services at fair prices, thereby earning a profit that attracts ­investment to continue and enhance the enterprise, provide jobs, and build the economy,”

“The long-term viability of the corporation depends upon its responsibility to the society of which it is a part. And the well-being of society depends upon profitable and responsible business enterprises.”"
---------

Henry Ford said "“The owner, the employees, and the buying public are all one and the same, and unless an industry can so manage itself as to keep wages high and prices low it destroys itself, for otherwise it limits the number of its customers. One’s own employees ought to be one’s own best customers.”"

Maybe he questioned the logic of trying to sell $30K cars to Americans while paying Mexicans $120 a week to build them.
The Business Roundtable? Of course that is what they would claim. They ain't dummies. What is it the member CEO's do?
I think you (and Pugs) mistake my meaning. I'm not anti-business or against profit in any way. I do think that it's popular to blame "lazy, greedy, American workers, especially union workers for the loss of American manufacturing jobs but that's far from the whole story. The textile and furniture industry in North Carolina was almost if not entirely non-union, and by no means highly paid, but it's still pretty much gone overseas. If the government wasn't so heavy-handed, a lot of those jobs might still be here.

I'm not a huge fan of unions either. I was in our union for over 20 years, but as soon as I was moved to a right-to-work state I got out, mostly because as I mentioned earlier, our union spent 75% of the dues on contributions to Democrats. They also were more concerned with union security than worker concerns. Unions have definitely priced their members out of work in a lot of cases. I am vehemently against stuff like card-check and other forms of gangster tactics the unions use, like the guy I know who was shot by union thugs just because he was a guard at a non-union mine.

I'd like to see more manufacturing here, because I think it makes the country stronger (and richer), but it's going to take some compromise and innovation from a number of players to make it happen. All things considered, I'm not sure it's ever going to happen.
It's as simple as the biggest bang for the buck. Keep the share holders happy.
Quote
Rubbish. I have bought hundreds of thousands of tons of steel from China with perfect results. This in the oil and gas industry.


Many years ago I was on a raft trip in Alaska which passed under the Alaska Oil Pipeline and painted on the Pipeline and the bridge which held it was the following...Made in Japan....Keep in mind this was back in 1990 and the pipeline was built in the late 70's early 80's but do you get the picture here?
Originally Posted by rem141r
my f250 was built in louisville and my subaru outback was built in indiana.


So are they American autos?
Originally Posted by EdM
The Business Roundtable? Of course that is what they would claim. They ain't dummies. What is it the member CEO's do?


They changed their viewpoint over time as the mantra maximizing shareholder profit came into vogue. With the advent of 401Ks replacing pension plans, employees had a vested interest in pushing for maximum value to the stockholders...as long as someone elses job was getting outsourced to a 3rd world country.

I'm just pointing out that wasn't always the case in America.

In the 1960's, IBM CEO Thomas Watson held a similar belief

"IBM’s philosophy could be contained in three beliefs: One, the most important, was respect for the individual employee; the second, a commitment to customer service; and third, achieving excellence.

"Balancing profits between the well-being of employees and the nation’s interest is a necessary duty for companies.We acknowledge our obligation as a business institution to help improve the quality of the society we are part of,” read the text of IBM’s corporate values."

-----

When it becomes about earnings per share - and not growing the business, its not innovation - it not even good corporate leadership.
I guess Fords and Oreo cookies will just cost 35% more.
For certain, and that's how we got the crapmobiles of the '70s, '80s, and '90s that created the market for quality foreign-built cars, subsidized in some cases by the governments of the countries producing them to make them even more desireable.

In the '90s, GM and the union agreed to try a different way of doing things and came up with Saturn, built in a new plant in TN, I believe. I bought one in '94, possbly the biggest POS on wheels I've ever owned (and I owned a Chevette!)

I go back to my original post. We don't have to like it. Just face it rather than whine. It shouldn't be so hard.
Originally Posted by northwestalaska
Quote
Rubbish. I have bought hundreds of thousands of tons of steel from China with perfect results. This in the oil and gas industry.


Many years ago I was on a raft trip in Alaska which passed under the Alaska Oil Pipeline and painted on the Pipeline and the bridge which held it was the following...Made in Japan....Keep in mind this was back in 1990 and the pipeline was built in the late 70's early 80's but do you get the picture here?


I was thinking that I once saw that the pipeline, two different types, came from two different sources, one being Korea. However, the latest current info shows this:

Originally Posted by http://www.alyeska-pipe.com/TAPS/PipelineFacts


PIPE:
The pipe for TAPS was manufactured in Japan (Italy
for Atigun floodplain pipe replacement project).
• Diameter, outside: 48 inches (122 cm).
• Lengths, standard: 40 feet and 60 feet.
• Pieces required for pipeline: More than 100,000.
Originally Posted by EdM
Originally Posted by KentuckyMountainMan
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


Rubbish. I have bought hundreds of thousands of tons of steel from China with perfect results. This in the oil and gas industry.


And like a lot of Japanese steel, it probably originates in the USA as scrap. smirk
Nope. We spent the money to assure the supply chain. There is big money to be saved in structural steel on O&G projects.
Quote
Based on previous posts everyone should now be buying a Toyota!! Right!!??


That is what I drive. I have bought 2 since Zero screwed the GM stockholders and gave it to the Unions. I will never buy another GM product, no matter what they make or do. Hell with them. May add Ford to the list. Too early to know now. miles
At some point there will be too few workers paying taxes, and the Government will not be able to borrow enough, and it will all collapse. I do not know when, but unless it changes it is inevitable. miles
Originally Posted by headhunter130
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
The female CEO of Kraft foods broke the Chicago cookie makers union by eliminating their 600 jobs and moving the whole thing to Mexico. She's a ruthless bitch from what I've read.

Something else to blame on Chicago..


Nope,the unions. All of the recent moves out of the USA were union based companies. You can't pay the overinflated salaries union workers get for not working and producing and at the same time keep a company in business.
That...
Oreo is the world’s favorite cookie and the best selling cookie brand of the 21st century, with nearly $2.9 billion in global annual revenues in 2015.

Every year, more than 40 billion Oreo cookies are being produced in 18 countries around the world.

Mondelez, the company behind Oreo and Chips Ahoy cookies, said its profit in the first quarter nearly doubled as it raised prices for its products and cut costs.

Shares of Mondelez International Inc. rose $1.91, or 5.2 percent, to $38.71 in afternoon trading Wednesday(April 2015).

The company said it raised prices due to higher costs to make products. Its overall costs, however, fell 15 percent to $1.9 billion.

It reported first-quarter net income of $324 million (2015), or 19 cents per share, compared with $163 million, or 9 cents per share, a year ago(2014).
Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
Based on previous posts everyone should now be buying a Toyota!! Right!!??


That is what I drive. I have bought 2 since Zero screwed the GM stockholders and gave it to the Unions. I will never buy another GM product, no matter what they make or do. Hell with them. May add Ford to the list. Too early to know now. miles


A lot of the Screwees were employees and retirees who had invested in the company (bad idea to tie your investments to the source of your income). The same thing happened to Lucent employees when management ran that company into the dirt. Sometimes, especially years ago, 401K investment options were largely limited to investing in the parent company which left the accounts exposed to excess risk.

The next car I buy will be the best I can afford, regardless of the source. My obligation to my family to spend our resources wisely overrides any other consideration.
Originally Posted by mtnsnake
I guess Fords and Oreo cookies will just cost 35% more.


OUCH!
There is a cookie maker union???
In Chicago????

How come nobody tells me these things???
Originally Posted by milespatton
At some point there will be too few workers paying taxes, and the Government will not be able to borrow enough, and it will all collapse. I do not know when, but unless it changes it is inevitable. miles


I agree.

Sooner or later when all the real muscle is gone it will implode. We already see the signs.

The Germans had better small arms and more troops, better tanks, excellent non-coms, (perhaps the best the world ever saw), courage, audacity and on and on. To a large extent it was our industrial production that defeated them. We armed the commie Russians. We armed the socialist Brits. How will we do that next go round??? All the small towns that used to have tons of machinists making stuff... a lot of that is GONE.

It is bad.

Let the corporations that make cell phones man up with M1-Garands next time... But they be too busy playing Pokemon or whatever that is
Originally Posted by walt501
Did the article say anyone would be losing their job in the U.S.? No, it didn't. That's because this move will pave the way for production of the new Ford Bronco and Ford Ranger in the U.S.


I was told that the cars moving to mexico are small margin . They will keep the current UAW workers and use them to build Trucks and SUV's with a larger profit margin. That is why the UAW is not complaining.
Originally Posted by northwestalaska
Always keep in mind that Trump has everything he sells built in the lowest cost country so this trend will not change if Trump were to win. The man is who he is period, history show us that to be true.


You truly ar one very dumb [bleep].Who feeds you and dresses you? Why are you even bringing Trump into this?

Trump never said he would stop trade anywhere all he said was the trade deals had to be solid and favor the US not the other way around. Is that so hard to understand you [bleep] pos?

Your Candidate is 6 points down , cannot wait to see you cry a river in November you [bleep] loser.

There are 2 government workers for every private sector worker. Let that sink in for a few minutes
Originally Posted by 79S
Meanwhile Toyota seems to be doing just fine building their cars here in the united states makes no sense at all.



That's because they are NOT a union shop.


Simple Really.


Clyde
"Did someone say "sucking sound"?????"-----Ross Perot
"It used to be cars were made in Flint, MI and you couldn't drink the water in Mexico. Now you can't drink the water in Flint and the cars are made in Mexico". - Trump
Originally Posted by Pappy348
The next car I buy will be the best I can afford, regardless of the source. My obligation to my family to spend our resources wisely overrides any other consideration.


A good plan and all we can really do. Buy the best vehicle we like for a myriad of reasons for the best price within our values model. If a manufacture finds that they are not hitting those marks they will change or go out of business.
Originally Posted by TBREW401
Companies move out of the US to avoid the EPA, Unions, taxes, and business regulations.


Partly true, but even if you do away with unions you're not going to get US workers for the $3 an hour they pay in Mexico. Make no mistake about it, it's the cheap labor they're after & those defending Ford would likely sing a different tune if THEIR job was being outsourced to the third world at $3 an hour.

Yeah, it's a global economy & we're seeing the results of it. We've gutted our manufacturing because we cheer companies like Ford sending jobs offshore in the name of corporate profits then we wonder why someone like Obama wins elections by promising welfare & food stamps for everyone. It's a great economic plan, offshore jobs, get the out of work people on welfare so they'll vote democrat, then tax the hell out of anyone left with a job to pay for it. The democrats are laughing all the way to the White House while the republicans are patting themselves on the back because their 401k went up a bit.

If you put your middle class in direct competition for jobs with Mexico & China then don't let it surprise you when they end up living like Mexicans & Chinese. There's no free lunch.
Originally Posted by Pugs
Originally Posted by Pappy348
The next car I buy will be the best I can afford, regardless of the source. My obligation to my family to spend our resources wisely overrides any other consideration.


A good plan and all we can really do. Buy the best vehicle we like for a myriad of reasons for the best price within our values model. If a manufacture finds that they are not hitting those marks they will change or go out of business.


Goes for guns too, BTW.
Yesterday CNN ran a headline that pretty much said the sky is falling because all Ford small car production is moving to Mexico.

Today when Trump echoed CNN's headline story CNN accuses Trump of lying - even when he is using CNN's own reporting.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/15/news/companies/ford-trump-jobs/index.html
My Toyota was made in the USA by Mexicans being supervised by Japanese.



Travis
Originally Posted by Valsdad
Originally Posted by KentuckyMountainMan
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


You bet,

I just brought our 2003 Matrix over here from my wife's place. It's such a piece of junk. Can you believe it, we actually had to replace the clutch with only 198000 miles on it.

Oh, My '01 Tacoma only has 230000 on the odometer, I just replaced the shocks and inner tie rod ends. I get the oil analyzed every year after about 4 oil changes. It keeps coming back as "normal". Junk, I'm thinking it should come back excellent or something, normal's not good is it?

Our 86 Toyota Pick up ONLY got 250000 miles on it before I decided to rebuild the motor because the head gasket was finally going. Sure was a POS truck, that one was. I even had to change the springs and shocks at almost 300K miles. I sold it at close to 325K and it was still running a year later as I saw it in town. What a crappy truck.

Dam n, those Toyotas suck so much we just went out and bought a brand new RAV4 for my wife. I hope that one gets way more than 200000 miles before we have issues with it. I'm tired of not getting my money's worth. wink

Geno
Toyota make fine automobiles, they don't make a truck yet! A Tacoma is just an alleged truck.
Originally Posted by Heym06
Originally Posted by Valsdad
Originally Posted by KentuckyMountainMan
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


You bet,

I just brought our 2003 Matrix over here from my wife's place. It's such a piece of junk. Can you believe it, we actually had to replace the clutch with only 198000 miles on it.

Oh, My '01 Tacoma only has 230000 on the odometer, I just replaced the shocks and inner tie rod ends. I get the oil analyzed every year after about 4 oil changes. It keeps coming back as "normal". Junk, I'm thinking it should come back excellent or something, normal's not good is it?

Our 86 Toyota Pick up ONLY got 250000 miles on it before I decided to rebuild the motor because the head gasket was finally going. Sure was a POS truck, that one was. I even had to change the springs and shocks at almost 300K miles. I sold it at close to 325K and it was still running a year later as I saw it in town. What a crappy truck.

Dam n, those Toyotas suck so much we just went out and bought a brand new RAV4 for my wife. I hope that one gets way more than 200000 miles before we have issues with it. I'm tired of not getting my money's worth. wink

Geno
Toyota make fine automobiles, they don't make a truck yet! A Tacoma is just an alleged truck.



And a Tundra is.........


Clyde
Originally Posted by walt501
Did the article say anyone would be losing their job in the U.S.? No, it didn't. That's because this move will pave the way for production of the new Ford Bronco and Ford Ranger in the U.S.


......until such time as those models can be sent south of the border also!!
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by walt501
Did the article say anyone would be losing their job in the U.S.? No, it didn't. That's because this move will pave the way for production of the new Ford Bronco and Ford Ranger in the U.S.


I was told that the cars moving to mexico are small margin . They will keep the current UAW workers and use them to build Trucks and SUV's with a larger profit margin. That is why the UAW is not complaining.

If true, that's a good thing, but they missed a golden opportunity to earn good press by not building a plant in a right-to-work state and keeping the jobs here. Again, the burdens our government puts on business here are a major motivator for going offshore. Lots of corporations, not just manufacturers, are reloacating to places like Canada and Ireland to escape onerous taxes.
Originally Posted by deflave
My Toyota was made in the USA by Mexicans being supervised by Japanese.



Travis



I know some of the Toyota workers in Georgetown KY. They ain't Mexican, don't speak Mexican, and are good people You are right about the supervisors, though.

My wife's Camry is one helluva car, regardless.
Originally Posted by Jim in Idaho
No tar and feathers here. But not only is there a world of cheap labor out there, here come the robots.

Folks might not all agree with Fred's conclusions but he brings up some good topics to ponder. A bit of a read here but not too long. For the internet attention spans, his points are:
- Manufacturers love robots, they're cheaper in the long run and more reliable than humans.
- Ergo, more and more robots replace more and more human workers.
- Ergo, more goods are produced more cheaply.
- However, more humans are out of work.
- Without working humans, who buys the stuff robots make?

http://fredoneverything.org/ready-new-rossiters-universal-robots-toward-a-most-minimal-wage/



"Being as I am a curmudgeon, and delight in human folly and thoughts of huge asteroids, tsunamis, incurable plagues, continent-shattering volcanoes, and the Hillary administration, I follow the advance of robots with hope. They may finally end civilization as we know it. Currently they spread like kudzu. Herewith a few notes from my favorite technical publication, the Drudge Report. It may convince you that the robots are upon us like ants on a sandwich.

Navy building autonomous sub-hunting submarine. Robots deliver food to your door. China’s use of robots set to surge. Amazon uses 30,000 robots in warehouses. AMBER lab robot jogs like human. Japanese farming robots. Burger-flipping robot. World’s first sex-robot. China’s robot cop. China’s road to self-driving cars. Bloomberg uses robot story-writers. In theme park, robots make food and drinks. SCHAFT unveils new robot in Japan. Boston Dynamics has several ominous robots paid for by the Pentagon. Robot does soft-tissue surgery better than humans. Robotic KFC outlet in Shanghai. And of course everybody and his dog are working on self-driving vehicles.

People seldom click on links. This one, Atlas, from Boston Dynamics, is truly worth a click. Think of him coming through your door by night. Many similar critters exist, often in Asia.

These machines either work well or come very close, and impinge on manufacturing, delivery, war, policing, the restaurant industry, journalism, and service industries perhaps soon to include prostitution. We ought to think forethoughtedly about what to do with these machines. We won’t.

Amazon Robot

Photo: Amazon’s robots. Video. These orange devils carry heavy racks to humans who pick ordered goods from them for shipment. Amazon is working on robots that can do the picking. Who will be left? In principle, 30,000 robots can work 90,000 shifts, plus weekends. With a predictability that makes sunrise look like a long shot, the company says that the robots do not replace but “help” humans. If you believe this, I’d like to sell you stock in my venture to make radioactive dog-food on Mars.

Automation of course means more than robots. As newspaper after newspaper goes all-digital, less pulpwood will be needed to make less newsprint, pressmen will be fired, delivery trucks will no longer needed, and so on. Such ripple effects get little attention. They should.

The capitalist paradigm in which companies think only about themselves, seeking to increase productivity and reduce costs, is going to work decreasingly well. Replacing well-paid workers with robots means replacing customers with a lot of money with customers with little money. People who are not paid much do not buy much. Robots buy even less.

The first crucial question of coming decades: Who is going to buy the stuff pouring from robotic factories?

The current notion is that when a yoyo factory automates and lays off most of its workers, they will find other well-paid jobs and continue to buy yoyos. But as well-paid jobs everywhere go automated, where will the money come from to buy yoyos? Today participation in the work force is at all- time lows and we have a large and growing number of young who, unable to find good jobs, live with their parents. They are not buying houses or renting apartments. (They may, given the intellectual level of today’s young, be buying yoyos.)

Enthusiasts of the free market say that I do not understand economics, that there will always be work for people who want to work. But there isn’t. There won’t be. There is less all the time. Again, look at the falling participation in the work force, the growing numbers in part-time badly paid jobs. Short of governmentally imposed minimums, wages are determined by the market, meaning that if a robot works for a dollar an hour, a human will have to work for ninety-five cents an hour to compete , or find a job a robot can’t do–and these get scarcer.

From a businessman’s point of view, robots are superb employees. They don’t strike, demand raises, call in sick, get disgruntled and do a sloppy job, or require benefits. Building factories that are robotic from the gitgo means not having to lay workers off, which is politically easier than firing existing workers. Using robots obviates the Chinese advantage in wages, especially if America can make better robots–good for companies, but not for workers in either country. That is, production may return to the US, but jobs will not. In countries with declining populations, having robots do the work may reduce the attractiveness of importing uncivilizable bomb-chucking morons from the bush world.

A second crucial question: What will we do with people who have nothing to do? This has been a hidden problem for a long time, solved to date by child-labor laws, compulsory attendance in high school, the growth of universities as holding tanks, welfare populations, and vast bureaucracies of people who pretend to be employed. Few of these do anything productive, but are supported and kept off the job market by the rest of us. But there are limits to the capacity of Starbuck’s to soak up college graduates. (The economic fate of America may depend on our consumption of overpriced coffee.)

As time goes on and fewer and fewer people can find work, and particularly the less intelligent, something will have to give. We won’t see it coming. We never see anything coming. Businessmen will observe productivity going up and labor costs going down. What could be wrong with that? Businessmen do not concern themselves with social questions. Methinks, however, that social questions are about to concern themselves with businessmen.

As standards of living decrease, unrest will come. I will guess that much of Donald Trump’s popularity arises from the sending of factories to China by the corporations that rule America. Now the robots are going to take the remaining jobs. Economists will chatter of this principle and that curve and what Aristotle said about Veblen, but in a free market for labor, robots will win. If we have a high minimum wage, business will automate. If we have a low minimum wage, they will automate, but a few years later.

The obvious solution, one I think inevitable within a few decades unless we want a revolution, is a guaranteed minimum income, enough to live on comfortably, for everyone. Whether this is a good idea can be debated, but it seems likely to be the only idea. Capitalists will tell me that I do not understand markets, or capital flows or pricing mechanisms, and that I am against freedom. I will respond that they need to wake up and look around. And I will point out that economics has become a tedious form of Left-Right metaphysics, Keynes versus the Austrian School, capitalism versus socialism, all unconnected to onrushing reality.

What would be the effects of a guaranteed income? Godawful, I would guess. Some people, probably including those who read columns on the web, would read, listen to music, drink wine and talk with friends, hike in the Himalayas, scuba dive, and earn doctorates in physics. But most would get up every morning, bored, without purpose, anticipating just another of unending days of television, beer, tedium, no driving desire to do anything but discontent with nothing to do. Would the young even go to school? They would have no need. What has happened among the welfare populations that in effect have a guaranteed minimum income?

See? We are doomed. It warms the cockles of a curmudgeon’s heart. Whatever a cockle is."


a cockle is the plural of cackle, see hilldawgs legs.
I was just talking a gun related, stock market, thingie this morning with a friend, retired G.M. engineer, back in the detroit area. You would like him. I told him of this article. His comment was who pays the majority of taxes in this country? corporate, that's who. and most big business has relocated offshore to avoid this. You can blame gooberment with taxes, regulations, epa and the rest of it for companies moving. You just can't compete unless that is done.


Let the corporations that make cell phones man up with M1-Garands next time... But they be too busy playing Pokemon or whatever that is


Those guys don't make anything; they design the stuff here and have it made in Asian sweatshops, just like sneakers and treestands.
Originally Posted by KentuckyMountainMan
I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


That's odd. My 2007 Tundra has no rust. My FIL'S 2009 F150 has a rusted out cab corner and I see plenty of Chevy and Dodge trucks from the mid to late 2000's with bubbling fender wells and hoods.
Originally Posted by bruinruin
[quote=KentuckyMountainMan]I have a cousin that works in the body shop at Toyota's Georgetown Ky plant....According to Him Toyota uses the cheapest Chinese steel they can get to build there Cars....Pure Junk...He drives a New Chevy.. eek


That's odd. My 2007 Tundra has no rust. My FIL'S 2009 F150 has a rusted out cab corner and I see plenty of Chevy and Dodge trucks from the mid to late 2000's with bubbling fender wells and hoods. [/quote. Didn't Toyota recall a binch of trucks because of frames rusting out. ]
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out
What nobody seems to be talking about is the millions being made by the top guys at Ford but yet $34 is too much to pay the hands on blue collar workers. Blue collar worker's living in a 200k house with a truck they helped build seems to be too luxurious. But the 6 million dollar home with millions in the bank is not enough for the ceo to survive on
Originally Posted by Pahunter69
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out


ASKING for somebody else to back your inuendo ?

Hey,... you're bringing it up, so it's your baby,....post some links to that problem,...

First I've EVER heard of this,. so all ears and eyes here, Bud.

GTC
Screw Ford screw Mexico, that's all I have to say about that.
Originally Posted by Pahunter69
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out


Yep, certain production years of Tundra and Tacoma pickups and some other models as well.

Lots of info and videos available via Google search on Toyota frame rust recalls.

Originally Posted by joken2
Originally Posted by Pahunter69
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out


Yep, certain production years of Tundra and Tacoma pickups and some other models as well.

Lots of info and videos available via Google search on Toyota frame rust recalls.



Never heard of a frame rust issue on a Tundra. My 2006 Tacoma was subject to a recall which was a joke.
Originally Posted by ratsmacker
Originally Posted by deflave
My Toyota was made in the USA by Mexicans being supervised by Japanese.



Travis



I know some of the Toyota workers in Georgetown KY. They ain't Mexican, don't speak Mexican, and are good people You are right about the supervisors, though.

My wife's Camry is one helluva car, regardless.


He writes of the Tundra, made here in San Antonio.
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by joken2
Originally Posted by Pahunter69
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out


Yep, certain production years of Tundra and Tacoma pickups and some other models as well.

Lots of info and videos available via Google search on Toyota frame rust recalls.



Never heard of a frame rust issue on a Tundra. My 2006 Tacoma was subject to a recall which was a joke.



A friend of mine had his 2006 Tundra recalled, and they put a whole new frame under his truck. He said it was a completely new vehicle when he got it back.

He has since bought an Eco-Boost F-150, but not because Toyota didn't do right by him, he just wanted a new truck.
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
Originally Posted by Pahunter69
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out


ASKING for somebody else to back your inuendo ?

Hey,... you're bringing it up, so it's your baby,....post some links to that problem,...

First I've EVER heard of this,. so all ears and eyes here, Bud.

GTC
I'm not a an Internet genius so not good at links. But a simple Google search TUNDRA FRAME RUST RECALL will give you all the info you need
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by joken2
Originally Posted by Pahunter69
Didn't Toyota recall there tundra for frame rusting out


Yep, certain production years of Tundra and Tacoma pickups and some other models as well.

Lots of info and videos available via Google search on Toyota frame rust recalls.



Never heard of a frame rust issue on a Tundra. My 2006 Tacoma was subject to a recall which was a joke.


http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.co...e-Eligible-for-10-000-Frame-Replacement/

http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/toyota-rust-problems/

http://www.tundraheadquarters.com/blog/tundra-frame-rust-photos/

Video of Tundra frame replacements consecutive # 71, 72, and 73 by this particular garage.

Thanks joken2. I'm an Internet moron on top of other things
Good thing Ford, Chevy, and Dodge never had any recalls. This is very damning evidence Toyota sucks.
Originally Posted by Stickfight
Good thing Ford, Chevy, and Dodge never had any recalls. This is very damning evidence Toyota sucks.


Toyota's SOP is to recall and fix things that aren't up to their standards. They don't want issues damaging their reputation for quality.

Ford, Chevy, and Dodge's SOP is to deny there's a problem then wait for the warranty period to expire so they're off the hook. Most of the time it's successful for them unless it's a safety issue and the NTSB gets involved to force a recall.

A good example of this is Ford's 6.0 diesel engine from 2003-2007 which was one of the worst engines ever put in a vehicle. Ford never admitted any problems with it although they were obvious.

Another example is the fuel lift pump in 98.5-2002 dodge ram diesels, of which I have one. The lift pump is a bad design in the wrong place and it's 100% guaranteed to fail. There are no symptoms until the injection pump dies from fuel starvation and you have a $2000 repair bill. Dodge ignored the problem until the warranties ran out, never admitting to this day that there was a problem.

Either of these would have been recalled and fixed by any company with a shred of ethics but that's not Ford or Chrysler. Toyota would have never let those problems continue.
Originally Posted by Crow hunter

A good example of this is Ford's 6.0 diesel engine from 2003-2007 which was one of the worst engines ever put in a vehicle. Ford never admitted any problems with it although they were obvious.



And Navistar told Ford the design wouldn't work but for whatever reason Ford pushed it through.


Wasn't it emissions? I can't remember.

My 6.0 has only left me stranded one time, Easter Sunday(in town). Couldn't have happened at a better moment.


They are a cold blooded POS in the winter time but I like 'em the other 3 seasons.


When they stop making this in the USA it will truly be a sad day.

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Originally Posted by SamOlson
Originally Posted by Crow hunter

A good example of this is Ford's 6.0 diesel engine from 2003-2007 which was one of the worst engines ever put in a vehicle. Ford never admitted any problems with it although they were obvious.



And Navistar told Ford the design wouldn't work but for whatever reason Ford pushed it through.


Wasn't it emissions? I can't remember.


Yes and No. The root problem was plugged oil coolers, which are inside the V of the block. Sand left in the castings was part of it, and Ford's insistence that their Gold coolant be used (which has silicates). These combined to plug the oil cooler, which would then cause overheating of the EGR cooler, which would rupture and allow coolant into cylinders and blow head gaskets. That's a simplified overview, but is the crux of it. The HEUI injectors are a pretty solid design, but depend on a clean oil system. The 6.0 is pretty picky about maintenance. The 2003 and early 2004 models had the most issues, but some of them ( like the EGR cooler and plugging oil cooler) were never corrected. The TTY bolts used for the cylinder heads (and the use of only 4 per cylinder) is another potential issue, but some trucks go several hundred K miles on them. A common practice is to replace them with studs.

There was a lot of finger pointing between Ford and Navistar. The VT365 (Navistar version of the 6.0) has a reputation for being much more reliable, but it's rated at 225 HP. Ford insisted the 6.0 be at least 325 HP to compete with Dodge and GM, and some things were rushed. The good part about the 6.0 is that all of the fixes are known and well established at this point (see: Bulletproofing). There are lots of suppliers and parts have come down in price. If you do your own work they aren't too bad to fix. Like a lot of engines, some are pretty darned solid and just run and run, others not so much. A lot of drama can be avoided on the 6.0 if you monitor the vitals to avoid oil cooler/EGR cooler/head gasket issues.
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