I voted Conservative this year. I thought that Canada's new Prime Minister would stand tall and protect Canadian interests around the globe. I voted for him in spite of warnings that he'd sell out Canadian interests to the USA. Now, I see, sadly - that is exactly what he's done.

He lets the USA keep 1 BILLION dollars in illegally gathered trade sanctions (illegal according to EVERY bi-partisan NAAFTA panel that has looked at it) and in spite of EVERY single appeal ruling in Canada's favour though the years. Haper's logic? Well, we are told - we'll get four billion dollars of the illegally taken monies back again! Wow! We only give up ONE BILLION to the country that broke the signed NAAFTA trade agreement! Gee whiz that's pretty great isn't it? NOT!

Every single time Canada appealed the US tariffs to the Noth American Free Trade Agreement court - we won. In every appeal that we filed to the World Trade Organization - we won. With both international trade bodies dispute settlement mechanisims ruling agains the US - they did exactly as you'd expect them to do when they don't like the decision. They refused to abide by the rulings - because they didn't agree with them. Even though, they agreed ahead of time, to the dispute mechanism - and to abide by it's rulings when they signed the GATT and NAFFTA agreements.

Oh, one more thing - Canada will AGREE (of all things!) to limit our sales to the American market to 34% - at the behest of the American lumber lobby. Wow! Isn't that great - that's why they call it FREE TRADE - it's free alright - as long as you don't get too much market penetration!

WWII should have taught us that when you try to appease rulers that flaunt international agreements - all you ever do is embolden them to break even more agreements. Will we never learn?

This is a black day for Canada, folks. Harper sold us out to American business interests - just like his critics warned us he'd do all along.

I'm ashamed now to say I voted for the man.

It is just the beginning, wait until he starts to sell off our water....

I voted for Harper, largely due to my hatred of the Lieberals and the NDP AND for the gun issue; I suspected that he would sell us out to the Yankees on resource issues and he has done so. I also think that he will renege on the gun issue as he is a slimey, little asskisser of a sniveling puke.

Face it, BCB, we NEED a REAL Canadian patriotic revolution and a return to our Nordic roots. We need a total re-vamp of our political system, re-patriation of many of the post-WWII immigrants and a "Canada First" attitude in all aspects of our lives.

I favour forcing a political block to the 52" pipeline for Alaskan gas to Chicago; why should we disrupt OUR landscape for the Yanks? While we are at it, let's end American hunting, fishing and other uses of OUR wilderness!

I have been warning about the water for the three years I have been on this type of forum; in fact, I was banned from one due to my patriotic comments. Let's hope enough Canucks WAKE UP NOW!

Go get 'em, BCB, it's time to fight back! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Brian,
Does this affect you or your family's welfare?
Do you have a personal interest in this?
Or are you just complaining about something that you read in the paper?
Bart

Don't worry BCB, our government will squander that billion so fast noone will even remember it..........and we won't have much to say about it either. You wouldn't have seen any more of that money than pink elephants even if your government did get it.

P.S. Keep your darn timber, we are drowning in the stuff down here already.

You have my TOTAL support on that one! It should come down the railbelt and terminate in Kenai. Agrium (even though that's a Canadian company <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) needs it, the LNG plant can use it as well as homes and businesses in southcentral.

HEY, I just figured out where the $100 gas tax refund is coming from..............cool, thanks BCB.

As a jesture of appreciation I would like to spend that $100 back into the Canadian economy by buying a firearm from one of you boys, er, that's right, you can't send them down here, oh well.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Maybe this would be the inspiration to repel the Jones Act, at least for ships with logs and lumber coming from Alaska... We'd keep Big Stick whacking trees for a long time if that blamed Act would go away.

That's got nothing but good for our Canuck neighbors, by the way. Least I think...???

I'm in the commodity wood business and would love to see Canada stop shipping any and all wood down here. 5 more OSB mills will be opening in the SE part of the states next year, with that extra production we don't need Canadian wood. Keep it to yourself, please. You don't like the way business is done, stop sending it across our border. Canadians have pissed in the commodity pot long enough and have ruined the market with their cheap wood.

It is interesting that the WTO ruled in favor of the USA on this matter.


Wetbacks with cheap labor coming from the south and Canooks with cheap wood from the north. You can both stay the heck out of my country.


We'll take your oil though... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

I have no problem with that philosophy, we can survive an end to American's buying Canadian lumber, etc. and I am totally opposed to the current raw log exports from B.C. to WA. state mills. I have not set foot across the border since '98 or '99 and am not likely to ever do so again.

The oil, gas and electricity exports can be eliminated by using our cheap hydropower to give Canadian industry a competitive edge over U.S. industry in the international market, I strongly favour this. If, the U.S. "Eastern Seaboard" and/or California suffers from "brownouts", too bad, it's business.

Now, since the Chinese and Indians are VERY interested in buying Canadian petro resources as well as forest products, we can simply expand our exports to them. We HAVE the resources and we can sell them as we see fit.

Given the huge increase in Chinese, Indian and European tourism, most of which is non-consumptive and not a drain on our rare wildlife, such as Stone's Sheep, I see no benefit in allowing Americans to hunt, fish, wilderness ski or climb in Canada.....yup, I have zero problems with staying out of your country as I have so much more here in mine!

kutenay;
You guys do have a nice place up there, why do you have to be so awnry ? You must know I was just ribbing Ol' BCB about his government being just as out of touch as ours, it seems good common sense is waning evertwhere...........

Mike
That's right, let's give Agrium all the gas at really cheap rates so when they use it all up making fertilizer we do not need we will get to see our natural gas bills skyrocket. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I believe a gas-fired generator in Prudhoe will be shipping juice South before we ever see a gas pipeline. Just the scrubbing is going to be pricey as the gas is getting dirtier by the minute and the engineers were largely ignored when they warned of souring the gas. Last numbers I heard included CO2 at over 12%... not many BTUs in 1/8 of the gas...
art

Ever heard of 54 40 or fight. B.C. is US territory anyway. B.C. is the only place worth a crap up there. Shove NAFTA where the sun don't shine.

I don't savvy the fighting between regular folks on whichever side of the US/Canada border......it's the meathead polititions on BOTH sides of the border that all of us regular folk have the most to loose to.

typical whiny canadian silliness. Canada has been dumping subsidized lumber on the American market for years. This settlement is short of what it should do though. Canada should pay damages to the US for its third world business practices.

Then why is a sheet of plywood so expensive? $14.00 or around that for 1/2 osb 4by8 sheet. It's been a while since I bought any partly because of the price. It's expensive to me anyway. kwg

Well, I think that things will get worse, much, much worse, where Canada-US relations are concerned, especially in trade issues. I live in the "riding" of the Trade and Industry Minister who signed off on this deal and he is NOT popular here.

While most Canadians are, generally speaking, not anti-American, the attitudes of some posters here, i.e., ...54-40 or fight...are familiar to us and tend to antagonize more and more people here. This, in turn, gives an impetus to the leftist people in Canadian politics/media who ARE and will remain anti-American; it also motivates nationalists to demand an end to the NAFTA farce.

In the long view, this situation is/will be good for Canada as it will tend to substantially lower our current levels of trade/involvment with the USA and will increase our trade in both resources and commodities with other nations, such as China and India. Certainly, there will be a difficult period of adjustment, however, that is already in progress and is working out fairly well.

My first reaction to this "deal" is to begin to lobby for the elimination of American hunting and fishing in Canada, especially B.C. as it really is of no economic benefit to us. My second is to lobby for the imposition of a very substantial export tax on ANY amount of oil, gas and electricity sold to the US.

Then, we declare the Columbia River Treaty null and void as well as institute a border tax on American goods shipped into Canada. We demand that Canadians wishing to travel, for any reason, in the USA have current passports to re-enter Canada and we also put a toll for Americans on the Alcan Highway and the Stewart-Cassiar Highway.

The export of raw timber, in any form, is halted and never re-instated while any agricultural exports to the US are taxed and US agricultural imports are banned. Yup, times would be tough, but, we could, would and should do these things and survive....it's business.

While we are at it, I favour a withdrawal from Norad, bringing home ALL Canadian military personnel except those that may be stationed/working in the U.K., Australia and New Zealand. There is little point in Canadians being active in the fight against those Islamists who threaten the USA, 'cause the Yanks are so tough and big and all that bullschitt that they can do it all themselves.....like they did in Vietnam.

Yup, there's a lot we can do and I kinda think much of this will happen, as the government that sold us out to the USA will NOT be in power long.

I wonder if this means Canadians will start boycotting Florida and Disney World.

We've become kind of used to having these friendly folks down here, regularly and often.

- TJM

Kuty, you are one feisty little guy! Only one problem with your latest rant. The turban heads you brought into your country will rule it before most of your rant ever comes to past here. Sorry for you mate, I really am. You have a great country that's going to the toilet.

In regards to Florida and Disney World, I know what you mean. I took my family down there a few years back and to our surprise we could not communicate with many people.
They all spoke French!

SU35:

I'm sure you met a lot of English-speaking Canadians, too. Unless you hear them say "out" or "about", you can hardly tell them from Americans.

- TJM

Kutenay, be realistic. The US is, what, 65% of your market. That's cutting off more than your nose. I, like SU35, am in the lumber business; have been for 35 years. I've seen a lot of changes and struggles between our countries over this issue. This whole situation, particularly over the last 12 years has degenerated to a lot of saber-rattling in order to preserve pride on both sides of the border. It has affected a lot of "bystanders" as a result. How many Canadian mills have had to close as a result? How many families have had to(try to) start over. Granted, there are other markets for Canadian species, Japan and the like, but those have proven cyclical and marginally dependable. Many of those markets have been grabbed by other exports from Australia, NZ and Central America as their resource bases have come to marketable maturity in the last 20 years. The single exception seems to be cedar, but the enviros have screwed that one up. Is isolationism really the answer? If that's your take on it, your interests are too narrow in scope. Just look at the difference in housing starts in Canada vs. the US. Even in poorer years, we have a huge appetite. Like it or not, we keep many of you employed. I'll be glad to see this govt. piss-fest go away and things get back to "normal". End of rant.

Well, I wrote a long and rather intelligent (if I say so myself) discussion on this however my computer tossed it into the cybergarbage can so I will do my best to rewrite it.

Kutenay,

You and I agree on a lot of things regarding Canada's natural resources which is why I am surprised at your reaction to this deal. I view this as a reason for Canada to begin developing finished products for export, rather then raw goods such as dimensional lumber. It's also a good reason for Canada to diversify it's markets into new countries. Like 8ball said, a huge amount of our exports go to the US. Diversifying into other countries will not only have a stabilizing effect on our own economy, it will prevent our livelyhoods from being as effected by US trade decisions and politics. This combined with the surge in the Canadian dollar against the US currency will likely result in Canada either exporting more to the Pacific Rim countries and Europe, or developing finished products for export rather then raw goods. However, we can not overreact to this decision by doing the things you suggest (rescinding NAFTA, pulling out of NORAD, taxing Americans going to Alaska, and blocking the Alaska pipeline.) To do these things immediately would invite economic disaster on Canada. Until we are no longer dependent on the export of commodities, we cannot simply shut the door to the US and try and go it alone. The key here is developing an economy that is not dependent on natural resources alone, but diversified with finished products for export. We live in a global economy and export must happen for Canada to become the leader that we both want it to be. As strong as our nationalistic feelings are, we can't afford to not deal globally. And that includes the US.



SS

+1

Not with disrespect to your thoughts on the matter as we all have politicians doing things we dispise, but my thoughts run in a different direction for the most part.

I do not now, nor did I ever support NAFTA. Nor do I embrace globalization at any level. I don't think the societies that comprise the planet's population are sophisticated enough, nor do I think a sufficient level of trust exists to allow such concepts to function. I doubt than mankind's nature regarding greed will ever allow it to be so, central point being there will never be social equality on Earth with the population we have. There aren't enough resources to allow that.

As too the politicians du jour, more often than not we vote for the lesser evil. I know I've been doing it all my life. The individuals aspiring to power are unworthy, those worthy have too much sense to step forward.

Regarding the timber industry, those of us on both side of the border have issues, and we've all been sold a bill of goods. It is my view that we are in a situation wherein supply far outstrips demand in this hemisphere as far as softwood goes. Overseas sales are likely to be your only recourse Brian.

On a personal note, the industry is it's own worst enemy due to clear cut practices in evidence here in the South, and to the degree I've seen it, out in the Rockies as well. Clean up the act and you may engender some sympathy from the average Joe. Sans that the issue remains in the clutches of politicians...the ones from Washington...the ones that are here to help. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Just FYI, the deal that was leaked to the media on wed (with the 34% cap) seems to not be the deal that is finally being endorsed. Now the deal is being grudgingly endorsed by most of the big players here in Canada.

But.... I heard a very astute comment by a Canadian logging company insider being interviewed... it galled him that 1 billion dollars of their money (the tariff's collected already) would probably be put in the hands of the american outfits to build a war chest for future lobbying and trade wars... so Cdn companys are literally paying the bill for the US resistence to free trade. I can see why that would irk them....

The only way canada will ever have the clout to push more favourable resolutions to trade disputes is when we have samething the US really wants (electricity/water whatever), and when our politicians have the nerve to link the trade of those commodities with some of the other disputed things. As Seinfeld says.... "We have no hand!!"

This post by D. Dan is among the best on any subject I have ever read on the 'net. I completely agree, NAFTA is great for the corporate elite and squads of useless bureaucraps and a total screwup for the average person in the USA or Canada.

But, this issue is going to continue to be very contentious on both sides of the 49th which gives us all lots to argue about!

I am with Sam Steele on this one, good friends of mine in Ontario have been hurt substantially by this dispute. As long as we want to depend on shipping natural resources out of Canada then we to some degree at the mercy of the other countries.
This dispute has gone on too long already, I am fully versed in all the reasons we are right and the US is wrong, but I don't care anymore. The bigger problem with the lumber industry is the various groups in Canada could never decide what they wanted the deal to look like. I say the lumber industry can now learn to live with a set of rules, not hang on for the day the dispute ends.

Nat gas to heat homes will not skyrocket if there is ample supply to southcentral. A line from the slope helps dwindling supplies from the Cook Inlet basin. Gas supply is certainly one of the factors for the current price rise in SC. Gas to Agrium may have only small benefit in the big city but here it is jobs, economy, local tax base and philanthropy to local organizations. It adds value to a resource before shipping it out of the state, rather than turning it into only CO2 and water.

Also I've heard the gas is needed/wanted for oil extraction of the Alberta tar sands. I'm not familiar with that process so don't know with certainty.

I like Canada and Canadiens, but have no more interest in them controlling our energy supplies (pipeline through Canada) than I do the Q-tips.

Are you suggesting saving the gas for electric generation and heating fuel?

Have heard that since Chevron bought out Unical, that they've done more seismic work in the inlet, and have found that there are signifigant reserves deeper down, and they have a 30 year plan on production. Pretty impressive considering many of the inlet rigs were on the borderline of being shutdown.

I gotta think with increased investment in exploration, they're going to find some more gas.

That's good news. I have not heard that yet but you seem to have some good contacts. At least two platforms were closed in - Baker and Dillon and other company's rigs too perhaps. Dillon is remob-ed for the summer.

When a plan is in place for who gets nat gas and when, it's serious.

It seems to me that there was a dumping of Canadian product at below market prices here and we said enough is enough. Like the Japanese steel a few years back. Sell for a fair price & you won't get your hand slapped. Neeeexxxxt....

The option opther than the one you describe and the one the OIL/GAS companies prefer is the Mackenzie valley pipeline which will come to Ft McMurray Alberta where the pipeline grid for western north america starts. Here natural gas is used to produce steam which is inturn is used to produce oil from the tar sands, the worlds largest oil reserve.. most of which is then sent to the US. The other by product of the steam production is huge amounts of cogen electricy which also goes into the grid serving western north america.
The fields they wish to exploit are connected, big parts are on the canadian side. As to the control over US oil production, most of the oil companies that produce in Canada are American, and unfetterred access to Oil and gas from Canada was the big prize in the Canada US free trade deal negotiated in the 80's.

I was thinking the gas was used as a solvent of sorts on the tar...thanks for the explanation Martin.

Unocal was running running the platforms like a 3rd world outfit, no money to invest, spend only pennies to get what production they can. Chevron has bigger $'s to invest, and are looking long term. I don't recall when they did the recent seismic work, or more in depth analysis, but they see deeper structure that looks promising. They're bringing a rig in this summer to drill down to those prospects.

There's been lot of formations in the state that have been known about for decades, but couldn't be profitably produced at nominal $20/bbl oil. I don't know what they calculate nominal crude prices at for future prospects, but whatever it is, those fields that weren't profitable under the old calculations now pencil out to a tidy profit, and are going to be produced in the next 3,5, 10 years.

I would like to see the gas from Prdhoe brought to market as well, but again, now might not be the best time. What is seldom mentioned is that gas which is constantly re-injected into the resevoirs has aided in extracting out the majority of the oil up there.

The MacKenzie Valley Pipeline should NEVER be built and NAFTA should be rejected by Canada; there is NO valid reason for we Canucks to remain in this travesty of a treaty. I favour a National Energy Policy for Canada that will allow Canadian industry to benefit from our petro-resources; I also favour an immediate end to electricity sales to the USA, for the same reasons.

Do unto others as they do unto you.

I see no benefit in allowing Americans to hunt, fish, wilderness ski or climb in Canada.....yup, I have zero problems with staying out of your country as I have so much more here in mine!

kutenay

Does that mean that Vancouver and Victoria will be off limits to all folks from the U.S? I would be interested in the amount of money dropped by American tourists in these two cities alone compared to the amount spent on hunting and fishing in B.C. I am betting that those two cities cannot afford to lose all the U.S. dollars spent there on tourism.

If you think too much of your wildlife is being sold to U.S. folks don't blame the folks hunting and fishing them, blame whoever is managing them. If the truth is known they probably would rather sell licenses to non-residents because they can charge higher prices.

I agree that NAFTA is a bad deal but I don't think Canada as a whole wants an "Iron Curtain" between them and the U.S. in the big scheme of things. I doubt if it would be a benefit in the long run for B.C. even.

kutenay- I've been reading your garbage now for quite a while and I'm getting a little sick and tired of your whining. Keep your wood, water and snow! We sure as hell don't need you. A few adjustments and we're fine. Whatcha gonna do with all that power you won't be selling us? Going broke most likely. Like it or not you depend on the cash generated by the sales of power. Stay the hell up there and keep the rest of your canucks up there too! You bitch and moan about lost jobs but how many lumbering jobs were lost in Maine when Irving Oil moved in and undercut all of the American outfits? Friends of mine lost everything when the canadian lumberjacks moved in! You can't get through a border town on a weekend with all you Canucks coming across and buying OUR gas cheaper that you can buy it there! The Walmarts there look more like New Brunswick reunions than American stores. Try to get to a beach in the summer - it looks like southern Canada! Most of the parks are packed with you refugees from the north pole. You want to stand on your own two feet? Then do it! For GOD's sake do it! You've been trying for years and can't figure it out yet! See how much the Asian's give you for your wood, you'll be lucky to get enough to cover the cost of shipping, never mind a profit! You can bitch all you want but you'd better face one little reality - like it or not we're stuck with each other and need to make the best of it. One more thing - most of us hate NAFTA! I've got nothing against Canada or even you but your rants have just pissed me off and I'm tired of just sitting here and taking it! As far as I'm concerned, the next disaster, natural or man-made, whoever or wherever it is in the world - F**K THEM! Figure it out yourselves! Take care of yourselves and leave us out of it! Rant over!

Boy, this "You're bad guys, no you're bad guys" garbage sure gets tiring. Don't we have better things to argue about? For instance, I think the 270 is FAR superior to the 280.

Mike
There was sufficient gas in the inlet to power AK for generations. To extract money at today's rates, rather than wait until extraction made sense, they started producing something which was not needed, but could be sold, fertilizer.

Bean-counters base decisions on things like the time-value of money. One of those equations says money not earned within seven years is nearly valueless. That is the reason the gas was converted into fertilizer rather than saved for today...

At the same time, manure and fish waste (among many other items) were becoming a dumping problem because they could not compete as cheap fertilizer. The price of corn is lower than the cost of producing it. Farmers cannot raise beef on corn they grow themselves because corn is so cheap.

Manure from stockyards is too hot and too salty for decent fertilizer without purifying, so petroleum-based fertilizers are used. If the Agrium fertilizer was not there it would only cost a trifle more to use the manure as fertilizer. Fish by-products could compete for use, also.

While Agrium provides a few perks for the locals the net cost is far higher than it appears. My natural gas bill has gone through the roof since the contracts for cheap gas started expiring and new ones written, for example. Finding new gas and signing long-term contracts for it will raise my bill a lot more.

As for local jobs, just how many North Kenai Residents do you want hanging about? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My problem with Agrium is based on all aspects of what they are doing and find it a criminal waste of the resource. YMMV
art

BigUglyMan - +1 Your right about that, bad day I guess... But your nuts if you think the 270's better than the 280! Why just the bullet selection alone.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> CEJ...

Ignorance such as yours can often be addressed through education, but, the type of stupidity demonstrated in your sniveling bullschitt is incurable. Forget your Prozac today?

Are you Hillary's son?? Nephew, maybe???

Got to be related somehow............

RO

I really liked it when he said"You want to stand on your own two feet? Then do it! For GOD's sake do it! You've been trying for years and can't figure it out yet!"
Hillary's kin..Don't think so...
Canada is not capable of much anymore......
Bart

Back to the original post; I'm of the opinion that the deal is about the best that we could expect to get - it's not necessarily fair, but then I don't remember there being any promises about fairness in politics, economics, or life itself, for that matter. Our next door neighbour is the Big Boy in the 'hood, and he tends to get what he wants, so I figure we came away from the party with at least something to show for our bitchin' - certainly more than we had two days ago, when Big Boy had the whole 5 billion.

Ergo, I'm not angry with S. Harper for cutting this deal with Dubbya; I think he did about as well as he could have and a whole hell of a lot better than Jean C. could/would do.

kutenay - re-read your bullshit and tell me who's whining! You lost a judgement and you go on a tirade! Your the one who needs the prozac or a good enema! River Otter, was your father that dimwitted frenchmen that just got voted out of office? You guys are worse then our Democraps, the guy's not in office for a year and your already want his blood and his resignation... Quebec's got the right idea, sucsession.. Bart, +1... Can't waste anymore time on this! Biguglyman and I have a debate going on the 270 vs the 280...

What would a urban wannabe who lives in a schitthole like Connecticut know about trees, lumber, mountains or anything worthwhile? You are just a typical mouthpiece who probably needs a "guide" to find a barren doe Whitetail in a zoo. We will win in the end and you will freeze in the dark without Canadian electricity, oil and gas. So, "fermez la bouche"!

BTW, regarding enemas, sorry, I don't share your homoerotic, anal obsession.

That's the kind of brainless reply I would have expected from someone like you... Have a nice day... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, at least your spelling is better in this post. However, you are still a wannabe and a bigot; it's not ...frenchmen..., it's "Quebecois".

I tend to avoid participating in this section of the forum, since the posts usually degenerate into a pissing contest. In this case, I cannot resist making a few comments.

First, I agree that Canadian lumber producers have been screwed by the latest deal on softwood lumber. Canadian producers, backed by their government, have consistently won every trade arbitration appeal, and American state and federal governments have just as consistently refused to abide by those arbitration decisions. The U.S. government did in fact illegally pocket $1 billion in lumber duties, which, if refunded, would not go to the Canadian government but to the companies that produced the lumber. This is not a question of whether the U.S. is in a position to flout its trade agreements, since there is obviously no enforcement mechanism that can ensure compliance with trade arbitration rulings, nor was the U.S. coerced into signing NAFTA. This is instead a question of whether flouting both solemnly-made agreements and international law is the right thing to do. I don't think that too many people would argue that reneging on a deal or ignoring the laws that make free and fair trade possible does not speak well of one's character.

Did the Prime Minister sell us out? Maybe. Maybe not. He might have held out for who know how many more years for a better deal. Why anyone thinks that he would be more successful at obtaining the agreement of the U.S. to abide by its trade agreements after repeated failuress by a succession of earlier governments is difficult to say. I also wonder why anyone believes that the U.S. will abide by this latest agreement when it has ignored its past commitments. Frankly, the agreement is probably not worth the paper on which it was printed.

Should Canada attempt to "punish" the U.S.? Yeah, right. Punish our closest ally and largest trading partner. There's a good idea. Should Canadian companies withdraw from the American market and seek a better deal by trading overseas with India and China? I think that our American neighbours could tell us a lot about what considerate friends and trade partners the Chinese are. If we are having difficulties making things work smoothly with the Americans, we might as well lube up and bend over once the Chinese have us where they want us.

The lesson here is that this is business, and business means negotiating the best deal possible for both sides. Good business practice is not a savage free-for-all, and good business practice reflects our character just as clearly as anything else we do in life. We now have a soft-wood lumber deal. If Canadian companies cannot sell lumber in the U.S. at a profit, they will have to look elsewhere for business. If American, home buyers cannot afford new homes because of the high cost of domestically produced lumber, maybe the U.S. government will take a closer look at the problem in the future. At the moment, however, this is likely the best deal possible, and both sides should in good faith try to make it work.

This is a very well written post, but, it typifies the attitude prevalent in Ontario and also the Canadian approach to international affairs that has got us into the current imbroglio. We in B.C. are suffering due to both the U.S. refusal to abide by the terms of the accursed NAFTA sellout and also by the attitude of Ontario concerning western Canada. The Chinese are out for what they can get, but, we CAN deal with them, if we STANDUP for ourselves.

This is funny.If you think that this is true...You're insane...
The U.S.A. doesn't rely on Canada for ANYTHING!
We are neighbors,that's it.Wow, you think alot of yourself...
Bart

Too much "Mescal" last night, Bart?????

long been a believer that about 5-10% of the population causes about 90% of the worlds problems.

It's discouraging to me that a few Canucks that are pizzed at our government, (welcome to the club boys, I ain't real fond of our government much of the time either) that want to jump on the Anti-American bandwagon can begin to create some of the hostility we're seeing here.

What little I know of the world, if I couldn't be a citizen of the USA, I've always figured Canada or Australia would be about the only places I'd stand a chance to fit in.

Maybe it's changed and maybe some of the posters bitterness towards the US is more prevalent in the Canadian genreal population than I wish against us, but I hope not.

My own personal experience is limited, but while traveling through Canada, I've met some of the nicest folks and have never been treated better anywhere by anyone. I've really enjoyed visiting with Canucks while on vacation in Mexico as well.

I really appreciate the thoughts expressed here by Big Ugly Man and Sam Steele, and hope those attitudes are more representative of how Canadadians really feel about the U.S.

Hell even my best friend and I don't see eye to eye on everything, and I am sure we both have had times where we felt we were getting the "short end of the stick" in our doings and relationship. But we normally have found a way to work past that and remain friends, instead of becoming enemies.

I hope we can do that as nations as well.

I guess it's what makes the news, but I think we give waaay too much attention to guys that like to thump their chest and make threats, whether they run a little country somewhere or just participate on an internet forum. YMMV

To the Canadians that our government has done wrong, I offer my apology, but hey boys, it ain't just you, I just sent in my tax return! And to you Canadians that realize we're more alike than we are different, even though we'll probably always have differences that need to be worked out,and still offer your friendship, mine is offered in return as I believe many Americans are.

It remains an amazement to me how this thread demonstrates that it only takes a little provocation by very few, to get friends ready to takes sides and do battle.

I hope that Canada and the U.S. remain allies and friends for generations to come. I've always lived a more rural setting, but common sense tells you it pays to get along with your neighbors, even if you don't see eye to eye on everything.

No...Can't do T'kill'ya...
Lighten up Kute...I know that you are one of the good guys...
But some of the things that you say are far-out...
Bart

I can't even LOOK at that stuff! O.K., a truce, BUT, only for the weekend!

Deal...
I'll bet you that I can be nice longer than you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />...
Bart

well thought out post, thank you for making the exception to participate this time.

Our government has a pretty dismal track record of living up to it's written contracts, whether it be what "income tax" is or what it is to be used for, or the purpose and use of SSN #'s. It's been a problem for as long as I can remember, if you don't believe me, ask a US Indian, if you can find one.

again, thanks for your post.

Very good post. A deal is a Deal, they never benefit all parties concerned equally. The lumber indistry and the govt in BC both support the deal, this fight has been very hard on the lumber industry. Now they have a framework, not perfect, but a Framework. Several large canadian producers would have gone under if a deal wasn't done sooner rather than later. Kutenay can bitch and moan all he wants, this was and is necessary.

The support for this here in B.C. is lukewarm, at best and it is "early days yet". But, WTF would I know, I only spent almost my entire working life in forestry, starting in '65.

The whole deal is just another corporate rip-off of the ordinary people of North America, look at the position of the organization representing U.S. homebuilders. The corporate elite are laughing, while working people will pay AND this same scenario will eventually come to pass in other resource sectors; we will see who moans and bitches then.

Gotta ditto John G on this one. 80 cents on the dollar recovery of the world's least enforceable court ruling is amazing to me. Cash the check, boys.

Looks to me like Harper's realpolitik and Emerson's smugly pragmatic walk has beaten Martin's cheapshot talk by 4 billion. Fair? In knife fights and international trade?

kutenay's suggestion of a toll on the Alcan tickles me. That would be fun, and fair (depending on what factors you allow into the fairness equation).

Alas, the only problem in a tit for tat war between Canada and the US is it is a total no win ultimately for Canada.

AwwRight Kutenay;

Now that you are aiming your little lazer pointer at "corporate ripoff" let's just take a moment and think..........


I think most of these horrible corporations of which you speak are publicly held, do you agree with that ?

I think these corporations are ran by executives who are hired by the board of directors, do you agree with that ?

I think the directors are elected by the shareholders, do you agree with that ?

I think the shareholders want as much return on their investment as they can get, so they vote in directors who will hire very efficient/agressive executives who will either show strong growth/profits, or be replaced........

I think the shareholders might be willing to overlook a few things their own corporation does to keep pace, after all, it's happening everywhere..........

I also think many of the shareholders do not even keep track of what their corporation does........as long as their returns are good......

I think sometimes shareholders bitch about corporate greed ruining their life, without understanding that they might be talking about their own corporation ! How many people know exactly what is in their mutual funds, how many people vote to make less on their retirement accounts to promote better stewardship of our planet ?

Art-
Good points regarding the true total cost of converting gas to a salable product. The whole idea of land-leases to "oil" companies is for some compensation to the state and allowing the oil comps to either sell the raw resource or sell a product from the resource. The process has you and me out of it right from the start. Since Agrium exists, and closing or shrinking it affects my community, neighbors, friends, schools etc, I'm in favor of bringing slope gas to the peninsula--Nort Roaders not withstanding. I also think that's a better idea than Mac River, Alcan or Valdez.

In doing that there will be gas available for both of us to heat our homes. I don't look favorably at rationing gas to my home. The price, like all HC fuels will likely stay high. One reason I'm cutting my consumption by using more wood then past years.

Providing nat gas for generations in the state could have been done with 2-3 inlet rigs (my guess) if that was the intention. A citizen co-op could have provided us with free gasoline from Prudhoe too I suppose.

ETA: If it's fertilizer you're looking for...there's a big pile out back here...come<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />