Yeah, if she didn’t want a dead husband, she shouldn’t have been egging him on to attack two guys with guns. Looks to me like self defense, since they were where they had a right to be when the large angry man at least menacingly approached them, and perhaps actually attacked the father (not clear in video). Previous threats were apparently why the duo armed themselves on their trip to the common dumpster. No further analysis should be needed, eg., such as duty to retreat since I assume Texas is at least as good as Florida on that point.
Yeah, if she didn’t want a dead husband, she shouldn’t have been egging him on to attack two guys with guns. Looks to me like self defense, since they were where they had a right to be, and the large man attacked them. Previous threats were apparently why the duo armed themselves on their trip to the common dumpster. No further analysis should be needed, eg., such as duty to retreat since I assume Texas is at least as good as Florida on that point.
I don't know about self defense, what happened was stupid on the part of everyone involved. Had it occurred on the property of the shooters, I'd agree on the self defense, but it appears that they were in an "alley", which was probably not owned by any of them. To me, this is a hard one to justify, but it was also a case that should never have happened in the first place. It just shows how frigging stupid some people really are.
The old man with the pistol appeared calm as hell throughout the chit-show. And the yelling guy that got shot must have been a former Marine, because he's yelling in that gruff voice like all Marine drill instructors do the first week of basic training.
I would be a bit more judgmental if I had never got PO’d about stupid crap. I have heard about enough situations tho never to dare anyone with a drawn gun to shoot me like loud guy was in-effect doing.
Sad deal all around. One guy dead, kids with no father, albeit a loud and stupid father.
I’m thinking at the very least Tubbs and Tubbs Jr are gonna lose what little they have to defense lawyers before all is said and done. Otherwise they appear to be so stupid I dunno if having killed someone in an avoidable situation will ever trouble them.
I can’t hear audio on this IPad but I can say I’ve been in two confrontations similar to this since Texas allowed Concealed Carry and I didn’t shoot the other guy.
The bail is set pretty low for a killing.
Abilene is about 90 Miles from me so folks are not much different from me and my neighbors so I’ll make this prediction...... If the PA really wants to work at it, he can get a second degree murder conviction.
If the back story leads him to think the killing is justified, he can get a “ no true bill” from the Grand Jury.
Report seems to indicate that the loud mouthed leaker had a baseball bat (deadly force) and made multiple death threats, and moved in on pistol packing papa when jr fired. (In defense of another).
Unfortunate situation, but I think they will both walk free, in the end.
If I were on the jury ....I would convict .....All involved were idiots....One died for it...The others should serve time......Max sentence for the charge....
I'm sure this wasn't their first run in with each other. This was probably the boiling point.
If I were the shooters and had a problem with the mattress, I would have called the city or the trash company. Maybe they had the guns to protect themselves because the guy was threatening them and probably wasn't the first time.
If I was the dead guy or his girl friend and two guys pulled guns on me over a mattress, I would have gone inside and called the cops.
If I were on the jury ....I would convict .....All involved were idiots....One died for it...The others should serve time......Max sentence for the charge....
You'd be instructed that you can only convict if they went beyond their lawful right to defend themselves, which they did not. A baseball bat is a deadly weapon within the range this occurred. The duo were in a place where they had a right to be, i.e., they were not trespassing.
I think it's likely that the father had his pistol in his pocket when he went out there, and the son with the shotgun likely remained on their property just to make sure his dad had backup in case the nutcase attacked him. Nothing wrong with any of that, if the circumstances justify it. No one is going to call the cops every time they need to go to the dumpster to protect them from the crazy neighbor. Certainly not in Texas.
Right after the first 2 shots the camera shows the old man clutching the side of his head as if he was hit with something, that's grounds there, to shoot one of the 4 idiots at the scene. I loved the part when Ed was telling the shooter how he was going to take the gun and kill him, Cool hand Luke's reply, was simple yet direct, " I doubt it"
Watching this video was like watching a one legged man at a sac race !
There should be no charges filed in this one, the badass who got owned by pappy and jr threatened both of them with their lives multiple times and then went and got a baseball bat and attempted to alleviate pappy, then he protected himself from the threat and dispensed this badass mofo down to a pile of ruble. I’d say both walk free in self defense.
There should be no charges filed in this one, the badass who got owned by pappy and jr threatened both of them with their lives multiple times and then went and got a baseball bat and attempted to alleviate pappy, then he protected himself from the threat and dispensed this badass mofo down to a pile of ruble. I’d say both walk free in self defense.
I see a lot of stupid and self defense. Orange shirt guy worked really hard at getting killed. If as is said he picked up a baseball bat and stepped towards the old guy he got exactly what he deserved. U
There should be no charges filed in this one, the badass who got owned by pappy and jr threatened both of them with their lives multiple times and then went and got a baseball bat and attempted to alleviate pappy, then he protected himself from the threat and dispensed this badass mofo down to a pile of ruble. I’d say both walk free in self defense.
That's how I saw it.
Words do matter.
Something that escapes a lot of people when they opine about CC footage.
There should be no charges filed in this one, the badass who got owned by pappy and jr threatened both of them with their lives multiple times and then went and got a baseball bat and attempted to alleviate pappy, then he protected himself from the threat and dispensed this badass mofo down to a pile of ruble. I’d say both walk free in self defense.
That's how I saw it.
I am no legal expert but I have seen it stated more than once that someone can not start the confrontation and then claim self defense/stand your ground. Did they go into the alley to confront dead Ed and that is being considered as they started it? Is this the DA's take on this situation?
No grown ups involved so a man dies for no reason. Armed individuals should have walked back onto their property. That would have helped their case, I think.
This happened in my home town. The neighbors had never met and this was there first confrontation. The guy who was killed was not armed when they shot him. The dead guys wife threw the baseball bat at the father son team that was armed. So the bat was already out of the picture. So since the guy was no longer armed, personally, I don’t think the shooters were justified. All of them were too damn stupid to just walk a way, IMO. I’m not killing my neighbor over a damn mattress. Both shooters are out on $25K bond. It will go before the grand jury soon, so we will see if they are indicted or no billed. I didn’t know any of the party’s involved, but I do know several of the investigating officers. Local rumors are that our Chief of Police is pushing the DA for prosecution.
Like I said, stupidity by all parties involved imo. .
Did we somehow lose concept that this was over a mattress in a dumpster??
Doesn't matter. All that matters is they had a right to be there, i.e., they weren't trespassing, and that they were attacked by someone presenting a deadly and imminent threat. If someone pulled a knife on me because he thought I cheated at Poker, would you say that it's only a $6.00 pot, so I had no right to draw my gun and dispatch the attacker?
There should be no charges filed in this one, the badass who got owned by pappy and jr threatened both of them with their lives multiple times and then went and got a baseball bat and attempted to alleviate pappy, then he protected himself from the threat and dispensed this badass mofo down to a pile of ruble. I’d say both walk free in self defense.
That's how I saw it.
I am no legal expert but I have seen it stated more than once that someone can not start the confrontation and then claim self defense/stand your ground. Did they go into the alley to confront dead Ed and that is being considered as they started it? Is this the DA's take on this situation?
You've got the law wrong. You cannot criminally assault someone (e.g., wrongfully shove them), and then claim self defense if the other guy responds with return force. The principle is that you need clean hands, i.e., you had not been behaving criminally just prior to the attack on you.
Best you can get if you criminally shove someone, and they draw a knife on you, is what's called imperfect self defense, which reduces murder to manslaughter, but these two men weren't behaving criminally when Ed attacked with his baseball bat (or, even if he had no weapon when he attacked), so they get the full right of lethal force self-defense (a punch from a fit adult man is potentially lethal, and you are not obliged to absorb one).
There should be no charges filed in this one, the badass who got owned by pappy and jr threatened both of them with their lives multiple times and then went and got a baseball bat and attempted to alleviate pappy, then he protected himself from the threat and dispensed this badass mofo down to a pile of ruble. I’d say both walk free in self defense.
That's how I saw it.
I am no legal expert but I have seen it stated more than once that someone can not start the confrontation and then claim self defense/stand your ground. Did they go into the alley to confront dead Ed and that is being considered as they started it? Is this the DA's take on this situation?
You've got the law wrong. You cannot criminally assault someone (e.g., wrongfully shove them), and then claim self defense if the other guy responds with return force. The principle is that you need clean hands, i.e., you had not been behaving criminally just prior to the attack on you.
Best you can get if you criminally shove someone, and they draw a knife on you, is what's called imperfect self defense, which reduces murder to manslaughter, but these two men weren't behaving criminally when Ed attacked with his baseball bat, so they get the full right of lethal force self-defense.
I am not saying that is how I see it. I am asking if that is how the DA is trying to frame it.
This happened in my home town. The neighbors had never met and this was there first confrontation. The guy who was killed was not armed when they shot him. The dead guys wife threw the baseball bat at the father son team that was armed. So the bat was already out of the picture. So since the guy was no longer armed, personally, I don’t think the shooters were justified. All of them were too damn stupid to just walk a way, IMO. I’m not killing my neighbor over a damn mattress. Both shooters are out on $25K bond. It will go before the grand jury soon, so we will see if they are indicted or no billed. I didn’t know any of the party’s involved, but I do know several of the investigating officers. Local rumors are that our Chief of Police is pushing the DA for prosecution.
Like I said, stupidity by all parties involved imo. .
You are not obliged to absorb any significant physical attack. Punches can also be deadly. Don't throw a punch at someone unless in self-defense, because an armed person can justifiably shoot you if they didn't in any way agree to a fist fight prior to your throwing a punch.
Last week I took my front end loader and heaved a freezer into the dumpster at a new construction custom home 1/4 mile up the road.
I didn't get shot, this afternoon I'm gonna unload some truck tars in that mofo. The pot heads siding the house usually knock off bout 2pm. Should be good. Yall pray for me. 😄
Be glad when they empty it. I need to get rid of a 24ft pool and a chicken coop.
TRH is right in that you can’t be the aggressor, or committed assault, then claim self defense. Like I said, plenty of stupidity by all party’s involved. Over a damn mattress in the trash in the alley. Just plain stupid.
It’s not “over a mattress “ . It’s over orange shirt repeatedly threatening to kill the old man and then trying to do so. Did you see the old man staggering to his left holding his head ? Maybe the old man took his weapon with him to the dumpster because he thought he might need it to defend himself from his violent insane neighbor ? I didn’t see the old man advance once. I did see him stand his ground and defend himself and I did see his son defend his father from an attacker. Ed was stupid , violent , and insane. Ed’s dead just as he should be.
Two lessons, first, in jest: Now we know why you don't rip the tag off of a mattress.
Second, in all seriousness, this is exactly why I tell those I teach, even if you have the ability, it doesn't mean you need to use it. Walk away. Walking away from an encounter like this takes a bigger man than it does to stand there until someone gets killed, unnecessarily.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
If the wife threw the bat at the old man then she needs to be put on trial for at least man slaughter. In Florida if someone is killed during a crime then all accomplices are on the hook for murder 1. Don’t know about Texas.
With the level of anger and violence exhibited by Ed I’m going to speculate that the reason Ed and his wife didn’t have a firearm is that they’re prohibited from owning one. I’d guess domestic violence charges and restraining orders. Just speculating but ....
With the level of anger and violence exhibited by Ed I’m going to speculate that the reason Ed and his wife didn’t have a firearm is that they’re prohibited from owning one. I’d guess domestic violence charges and restraining orders. Just speculating but ....
I’d say your spot on sir, ole ed had a helluva temper that cost him his life.
could any of you turned your back on Ed and trusted him to let you walk away? i wonder if the men with guns had back up even facing Ed would he have attacked? We all know people are often attacked when the first sign of weakness appears. Ed or I thought his name was Aaron gave me the perception that he was a violent person used to using his size to intimidate and perhaps harm people.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
And the civil suit she is going to file even if the other two hillbillies are cleared.
In Florida, and other states (perhaps Texas, too), if you are cleared based on justified self defense, you are immune to civil suit based on the events in question.
Two lessons, first, in jest: Now we know why you don't rip the tag off of a mattress.
Second, in all seriousness, this is exactly why I tell those I teach, even if you have the ability, it doesn't mean you need to use it. Walk away. Walking away from an encounter like this takes a bigger man than it does to stand there until someone gets killed, unnecessarily.
Yep, best to avoid problems. That's not to say the shooting in question wasn't justified in the law, though.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
If the wife threw the bat at the old man then she needs to be put on trial for at least man slaughter. In Florida if someone is killed during a crime then all accomplices are on the hook for murder 1. Don’t know about Texas.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
And the civil suit she is going to file even if the other two hillbillies are cleared.
In Florida, and other states (perhaps Texas, too), if you are cleared based on justified self defense, you are immune to civil suit based on the events in question.
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
And the civil suit she is going to file even if the other two hillbillies are cleared.
In Florida, and other states (perhaps Texas, too), if you are cleared based on justified self defense, you are immune to civil suit based on the events in question.
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
There probably ain’t a long line of Plantiff Lawyers wanting to go after all the assets of Pappy and Junior on a percentage deal.
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
Sued for what, LOL? They're in an ally with a "dumpster" which normally indicates rental property.
They might have a piggy bank???
They might have a new mattress???
Maybe the shooter is the property owner who was tired of people dumping trash in a dumpster he paid for and that is how the dispute started. Just guessing.
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
Sued for what, LOL? They're in an ally with a "dumpster" which normally indicates rental property.
They might have a piggy bank???
They might have a new mattress???
Maybe the shooter is the property owner who was tired of people dumping trash in a dumpster he paid for and that is how the dispute started. Just guessing.
If you go to live leak and look at the comments someone just posted a doz. mug shots that are supposed to be his and someone else took a screen shot that is supposed to be from his facebook page where he says he is basically crazy and on meds. Meaning Dead Ed
If you go to live leak and look at the comments someone just posted a doz. mug shots that are supposed to be his and someone else took a screen shot that is supposed to be from his facebook page where he says he is basically crazy and on meds. Meaning Dead Ed
That ole man has ice water in his veins, but he did let the idiot get way to close, but from the exit wound it looks like the shot was pretty close to center of the face !
Arron “Ed” Howard apparently has a long history of arrests. 12 mugshots someone dug up. A long rant of an obviously mentally ill person on Facebook complaining about the cops and his meds. Ed was cruising for a bad end and finally found it.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
And the civil suit she is going to file even if the other two hillbillies are cleared.
In Florida, and other states (perhaps Texas, too), if you are cleared based on justified self defense, you are immune to civil suit based on the events in question.
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
There probably ain’t a long line of Plantiff Lawyers wanting to go after all the assets of Pappy and Junior on a percentage deal.
True. Shirtless with a molester moustache are pretty good signs that someone’s judgment-proof.
Last week I took my front end loader and heaved a freezer into the dumpster at a new construction custom home 1/4 mile up the road.
I didn't get shot, this afternoon I'm gonna unload some truck tars in that mofo. The pot heads siding the house usually knock off bout 2pm. Should be good. Yall pray for me. 😄
Be glad when they empty it. I need to get rid of a 24ft pool and a chicken coop.
That's called "theft of services" and is punishable by law. Pick your battles wisely.
Arron “Ed” Howard apparently has a long history of arrests. 12 mugshots someone dug up. A long rant of an obviously mentally ill person on Facebook complaining about the cops and his meds. Ed was cruising for a bad end and finally found it.
Last week I took my front end loader and heaved a freezer into the dumpster at a new construction custom home 1/4 mile up the road.
I didn't get shot, this afternoon I'm gonna unload some truck tars in that mofo. The pot heads siding the house usually knock off bout 2pm. Should be good. Yall pray for me. 😄
Be glad when they empty it. I need to get rid of a 24ft pool and a chicken coop.
That's called "theft of services" and is punishable by law. Pick your battles wisely.
I put a covert deer camera on my dumpster, and it has paid dearly im restitution over the last couple of years, and it beats dumpster diving to see who's dumb enough to leave their mail, this way I just post their pictures on facebook and wait for their exe's to rat them out, and for a small fee I will remove their pictures, a thief is a thief..........
Arron “Ed” Howard apparently has a long history of arrests. 12 mugshots someone dug up. A long rant of an obviously mentally ill person on Facebook complaining about the cops and his meds. Ed was cruising for a bad end and finally found it.
of course none of that will be admissible as evidence
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
While technically, you can be sued, it's important to note the following:
CPRC § 83.001. Civil Immunity
A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
Arron “Ed” Howard apparently has a long history of arrests. 12 mugshots someone dug up. A long rant of an obviously mentally ill person on Facebook complaining about the cops and his meds. Ed was cruising for a bad end and finally found it.
of course none of that will be admissible as evidence
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
While technically, you can be sued, it's important to note the following:
CPRC § 83.001. Civil Immunity
A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
The really sad part is dead Ed's wife is still alive, with the possibility of continued breeding, she needs nutted, and soon.
And the civil suit she is going to file even if the other two hillbillies are cleared.
In Florida, and other states (perhaps Texas, too), if you are cleared based on justified self defense, you are immune to civil suit based on the events in question.
You've been miss-informed regarding Florida law.
I have personal involvement in a 2011 Florida Stand Your Ground case. There was never even a reason to go to the police department let alone jail. 100% clean shoot, 100% cleared by Florida's Stand Your Ground law.
2013 the wrongful death civil case was filed in Citrus County Florida, they had a 2 year time limit and filed on the last day possible.
2017 it was closed after all the ups and downs and appeals these cases offer. Even being heavily insured (1 million dollar liability umbrella) it still cost 75k over 4 years for attorneys fees over and above what services the insurance company law firms offered.
If the same situation was to present it's self again it would go differently just due to the nightmare the civil case became.
In TX, unfortunately you can still be sued in civil court even if the shooting was ruled to be justified.
While technically, you can be sued, it's important to note the following:
CPRC § 83.001. Civil Immunity
A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant’s use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
That's immunity, then. Sounds like Florida law.
I'm seeing where your misunderstanding of the law is at.
In the case I'm involved in they sued for "wrongful death" it all hinged on four shots being fired instead of one. Their claim was one shot would have stopped the threat, four shots was intention to kill.
Like I said, they lost their case, 4 years and 75k later....
If the Texas case goes in a similar fashion, from what could be seen in the video the kid with the shotgun don't stand a chance in criminal or civil court. Kinda just looked like he placed a kill shot. All that can be proven though...
Last week I took my front end loader and heaved a freezer into the dumpster at a new construction custom home 1/4 mile up the road.
I didn't get shot, this afternoon I'm gonna unload some truck tars in that mofo. The pot heads siding the house usually knock off bout 2pm. Should be good. Yall pray for me. 😄
Be glad when they empty it. I need to get rid of a 24ft pool and a chicken coop.
That's called "theft of services" and is punishable by law. Pick your battles wisely.
I put a covert deer camera on my dumpster, and it has paid dearly im restitution over the last couple of years, and it beats dumpster diving to see who's dumb enough to leave their mail, this way I just post their pictures on facebook and wait for their exe's to rat them out, and for a small fee I will remove their pictures, a thief is a thief..........
Yep, and dumb is dumb. Just because no one has complained yet, does not make it right or legal. Sooner or later it WILL bite you in the backside.
Last week I took my front end loader and heaved a freezer into the dumpster at a new construction custom home 1/4 mile up the road.
I didn't get shot, this afternoon I'm gonna unload some truck tars in that mofo. The pot heads siding the house usually knock off bout 2pm. Should be good. Yall pray for me. 😄
Be glad when they empty it. I need to get rid of a 24ft pool and a chicken coop.
That's called "theft of services" and is punishable by law. Pick your battles wisely.
I put a covert deer camera on my dumpster, and it has paid dearly im restitution over the last couple of years, and it beats dumpster diving to see who's dumb enough to leave their mail, this way I just post their pictures on facebook and wait for their exe's to rat them out, and for a small fee I will remove their pictures, a thief is a thief..........
Yep, and dumb is dumb. Just because no one has complained yet, does not make it right or legal. Sooner or later it WILL bite you in the backside.
It takes an azzhole to do that but it takes a fool to document it oinline...
Arron “Ed” Howard apparently has a long history of arrests. 12 mugshots someone dug up. A long rant of an obviously mentally ill person on Facebook complaining about the cops and his meds. Ed was cruising for a bad end and finally found it.
of course none of that will be admissible as evidence
I don’t know about the written law but I personally know of three different instances where a guy shot an unarmed guy and killed him. In all three instances the cases were no billed by Grand Juries and the prime reason was the dead guys were known bullies. These were before we had CC, Castle Doctrine or any of the new stuff. In two instances the shooter had to go somewhere to get a gun then returned to do the shooting.
Rural Texas is like rural most places I imagine.... you go around beating folks up and the Law figures you are paid for if somebody decides to kill you.
I can't imagine somebody getting so upset about what has been placed in a dumpster. In any event, when someone is holding a firearm and tells you that he's going to kill you if you approach him, it's downright crazy for one to repeatedly threaten him and his son's life, and then to move towards him.
Back in the old days,..on a few occasions, I've seen people get into fights at the bar I worked at and one combatant would scream in anger that he was going to kill the other. But generally speaking, everybody present knew that it was just an idle threat made in anger. Nothing close to a killing ever took place there.
But when a middle aged fellow holding a firearm tells someone who is throwing a fit that he's going to kill him if he comes toward him,..in a calm, measured voice, you better pay attention.
I could tell from the old fellow's demeanor that he wasn't just talking smack. His decision had been made and he was simply informing his aggressor of what it was.
The loudmouth guy is very bad at reading sign,..and he's dead because of it.
Check out 2:11 and 2:14 when she swings the camera left. Mr. and Mrs. OrangeShirt have somebody else on their side. Maybe that's one of the other folks she mentions in the news report.
So paw and sonny shirtless are also feeling outnumbered at least 3-to-2, which is going to be bearing on their mental state as well once things get hot.
I'm just trying to recon what the downside was in this interaction. One loudmouth degenerate retard gets smoked in a near peer engagement against two other mouth breathers in the back alley of the trailer park.
This happened in my home town. The neighbors had never met and this was there first confrontation. The guy who was killed was not armed when they shot him. The dead guys wife threw the baseball bat at the father son team that was armed. So the bat was already out of the picture. So since the guy was no longer armed, personally, I don’t think the shooters were justified. All of them were too damn stupid to just walk a way, IMO. I’m not killing my neighbor over a damn mattress. Both shooters are out on $25K bond. It will go before the grand jury soon, so we will see if they are indicted or no billed. I didn’t know any of the party’s involved, but I do know several of the investigating officers. Local rumors are that our Chief of Police is pushing the DA for prosecution.
Like I said, stupidity by all parties involved imo. .
Out around Crane Tx in the fifties, an old Rancher got thrown out of Pinky’s beer joint and unnecessarily roughed up by Pinky. He drove thirty miles to his place, retrieved his 30 30, drove back to the beer joint, walked in and shot Pinky dead.
He was indicted for murder and a jury was seated. The PA was making his opening statement when the Judge scolded the jury...” Y’all hush up talking and let young Phillip here say his piece.”
One of the jury answered,” we done talked this over, Sam, and decided that Somebody was gonna have to kill Pinky and it just happened to be Mr Holloway here...... we ain’t gonna do nothing to him but go ahead and have yourself a trial if you’ve a mind to.”
The PA finished his opening statement. The Defense Counsel did the same.
The PA rested.
The Defense rested.
The jury retired and came back in a short while with a not guilty verdict.
On September 1, 2018, the Abilene Police Department began investigating a shooting in the alley behind the 4300 block of Don Juan. It was determined that John Miller and Michael Miller discharged firearms at Aaron Howard after engaging in an argument about the placement of a box spring in the alley, killing him. When the first shots were fired, Aaron had a bat in his hand and was approximately seven feet from John Miller, who was the closest to him. When Michael Miller discharged his shotgun and John Miller fired the final two rounds from his pistol, Aaron Howard was unarmed. Both the Millers admitted to shooting Howard, who died after being transported to Hendrick Medical Center. Aaron Howard’s wife/girlfriend, Kara Box, recorded the incident on her cellphone and Detective Jordan Brown reviewed this video. He believes it is apparent from the video, combined with the interviews of the Millers, that they were tired of their neighbor, Aaron Howard, acting out and yelling and threatening them verbally. They brought out firearms during this argument and both Millers stood in the alley as Aaron Howard got more and more upset. As soon as he raised the bat while approximately seven or more feet away from John, John shot him
Both shooters re-arrested today by APD and their bonds raised from $25K to $250K after APD Chief and the DA pushed for an insufficient bond hearing. Seriously doubt either be can affect rd to post bail now.
Apparently, neither had the ability to remain silent, or took advantage of, if you wish for one and can not afford one, an attorney will be appointed for you. Idiots abound.
Apparently, neither had the ability to remain silent, or took advantage of, if you wish for one and can not afford one, an attorney will be appointed for you. Idiots abound.
This story has two kinds of idiots.
Those with guns and dead ones.
*Not counting the woman who is in a class ah by herseff.
Yeah - it blows my mind the white trash involved in that video....
Unreal it came to that. Completely different planet from reality....hope they rot in prison forever and the dead guys wife reconsiders who the hell the type of dude she was married to....
Yeah - it blows my mind the white trash involved in that video....
Unreal it came to that. Completely different planet from reality....hope they rot in prison forever and the dead guys wife reconsiders who the hell the type of dude she was married to....
Oh she'll be the biggest anti-gun activist you ever saw. Democrats will put her in front of a microphone the next time there's a push for un-Constitutional disarmament of the populace. Mark my words.
Junior was fixin' for a fight. Nipple rash on those hairy ta-ta's will do that to a man. Orange shirt was probably mortally wounded after the first shot. Junior felt the need to tune him up some more by racking that broom handle a coupe times. Over penetration of the cranial cavity.
1 dead and 2 others are gonna wear orange shirts for the rest of their natural lives. Honestly, society is better off with these 3 out of circulation. So I'm calling good shoot...for us.
Looks like the big guy threw the bat at the old man and then they shot him in response.
Quote above has the bat still in the deceased mans hand at the first shot.
I’d not be surprised if the dia-beetus twins walk. Wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t either though. I give 60/40 odds of them being home in the alley for next years swim suit season.
Yep, if a fella has been threating to kill you, then comes at you with a baseball bat in his hand, sounds like a good case for self defence. His wife's video may be the defences best witness. Ed is definitely a Darwin award candidate. Will be interesting to hear how this case ends.
“They brought out firearms during this argument and both Millers stood in the alley as Aaron Howard got more and more upset. As soon as he raised the bat while approximately seven or more feet away from John, John shot him.”
This is result oriented. Seven feet away with a baseball bat is like ¼ second away from death. If you don’t believe me, see what I can do to a coconut 7 feet away from me in ¼ second. And the “seven or more” means the article is written from a certain perspective. It didn’t state “8 feet or less” etc. … Clear suggestion of bias.
Apparently, neither had the ability to remain silent, or took advantage of, if you wish for one and can not afford one, an attorney will be appointed for you. Idiots abound.
Ya, Pops taunting the angry guy repeatedly with “go ahead, swing at me” after assuring him that “if you come inside of three feet I’m go’on a kill ya” is prob’ly going to cost both him and Lard Jr. big time.
“They brought out firearms during this argument and both Millers stood in the alley as Aaron Howard got more and more upset. As soon as he raised the bat while approximately seven or more feet away from John, John shot him.”
This is result oriented. Seven feet away with a baseball bat is like ¼ second away from death. If you don’t believe me, see what I can do to a coconut 7 feet away from me in ¼ second. And the “seven or more” means the article is written from a certain perspective. It didn’t state “8 feet or less” etc. … Clear suggestion of bias.
The defense would not have too hard a time convincing me the dead dude had "means" and had expressed "intent" if the statement about having the bat in his hand, raised, turns out to be true, especially after hearing him issue multiple threats of death to the armed dudes.
After all these screwed up shootings by cops where they get a pass on bad decisions, these untrained civilians need the benefit.
Any of them could have walked away, none did. I would have been afraid of Ed. Someone, at sometime was going to get bad hurt in a conflict with him. By killing him, they saved someone, maybe, someone close to them.
Ed should have recognized the danger that old man represented. In a situation like this, an out of control idiot in a rage will usually lose to the guy standing there, ice water in his viens, mind made up to kill.
Ed was a bully, if they hadn't been armed, he would have attacked, and may have. I kinda hope he did, these guys weren't smart, but we don't know the past, and I would bet many here could have ended up in the same position.
The Stupid is strong. Die over a dumpster. Ruin your life over a dumpster.
So, if someone takes a baseball bat to me over a hand of cards with $6.00 in the pot, and I dispatch him before the bat strikes me, then I'm rightly rebuked for ruining my life over a mere six dollars?
It's pretty tragic how our community (the gun rights advocates) eats its own when they actually find themselves in situations where they stand their ground against an aggressor and save their lives with a firearm. Do only fit people, sports gear models and the like, have a right to stand their ground against violent aggressors?
Go to https://www.google.com/alerts and type pertinent facts in like the names & place of this incident and every time Google finds an article with those search terms you'll get an email linking to it.
They took the mattress that “Ed” had thrown into the dumpster out and put it into his yard. I can guess the reason for this. In many apartment complexes and trailer parks the dumpsters are inadequate for the volume. It’s also usually against the rules. Someone throws a mattress or couch into the dumpster the dumpster overflows and the trash piles up around it. Now animals get at it and spread it around. It’s a real problem for the people who live by it. I was born with nothing and still have most of it left so I’ve lived in some of these situations. I’d be a real prick about someone throwing a mattress into the dumpster too.
After all these screwed up shootings by cops where they get a pass on bad decisions, these untrained civilians need the benefit.
Any of them could have walked away, none did. I would have been afraid of Ed. Someone, at sometime was going to get bad hurt in a conflict with him. By killing him, they saved someone, maybe, someone close to them.
Ed should have recognized the danger that old man represented. In a situation like this, an out of control idiot in a rage will usually lose to the guy standing there, ice water in his viens, mind made up to kill.
Ed was a bully, if they hadn't been armed, he would have attacked, and may have. I kinda hope he did, these guys weren't smart, but we don't know the past, and I would bet many here could have ended up in the same position.
Why is it that a cop can shoot someone under many different circumstances yet when a citizen does it he's headed for a murder rap .
Yeah maybe the guys are overweight maybe they should have walked away but as to what went down on video dead ed got 100% of what he needed .
And taking the words of a ''reporter'' is ''ridiculous'' . I'm 6'2" long arms baseball bat in hand reached outward the business end of the Bat will be no less than 2' from the old mans head . What would 2 cops have done to dead ed ? - why do citizens have to chance being killed while cops dump magazines into people who come at them with death threats . And dead ed would never have got within 20' of a cop without being shot to hell and back and I don't have a single problem with that .
Interested in hearing more details ''brought guns out'' & who went and got dead ed a baseball bat .
Fireball , you're probably right about the left propping dead ed's dumb wife up as a gun control advocate . Dress the hag up in some conservative classy looking clothes , hairdoo , manicure and tell her what to say , she be in the spotlight crying her eyes out , drunk every night taking a pain pill of three . All while raising some kids who ain't got a snowballs chance growing up with a mother like her .
After all these screwed up shootings by cops where they get a pass on bad decisions, these untrained civilians need the benefit.
Any of them could have walked away, none did. I would have been afraid of Ed. Someone, at sometime was going to get bad hurt in a conflict with him. By killing him, they saved someone, maybe, someone close to them.
Ed should have recognized the danger that old man represented. In a situation like this, an out of control idiot in a rage will usually lose to the guy standing there, ice water in his viens, mind made up to kill.
Ed was a bully, if they hadn't been armed, he would have attacked, and may have. I kinda hope he did, these guys weren't smart, but we don't know the past, and I would bet many here could have ended up in the same position.
Why is it that a cop can shoot someone under many different circumstances yet when a citizen does it he's headed for a murder rap .
Yeah maybe the guys are overweight maybe they should have walked away but as to what went down on video dead ed got 100% of what he needed .
And taking the words of a ''reporter'' is ''ridiculous'' . I'm 6'2" long arms baseball bat in hand reached outward the business end of the Bat will be no less than 2' from the old mans head . What would 2 cops have done to dead ed ? - why do citizens have to chance being killed while cops dump magazines into people who come at them with death threats . And dead ed would never have got within 20' of a cop without being shot to hell and back and I don't have a single problem with that .
Interested in hearing more details ''brought guns out'' & who went and got dead ed a baseball bat .
Fireball , you're probably right about the left propping dead ed's dumb wife up as a gun control advocate . Dress the hag up in some conservative classy looking clothes , hairdoo , manicure and tell her what to say , she be in the spotlight crying her eyes out , drunk every night taking a pain pill of three . All while raising some kids who ain't got a snowballs chance growing up with a mother like her .
Cops are special. They're up here (hold your hand up high), and we're down here (move your hand down to your knees). They can shoot whoever they want, in the name of public safety of course.
I run across any cops, I assume they're alcoholic loudmouths that get on internet forums and run people down because they have no social skills and their friends are the same. You can always spot em, they're up here, ^^^^^^ and we're down here, vvvvvvvvv.
After all these screwed up shootings by cops where they get a pass on bad decisions, these untrained civilians need the benefit.
Any of them could have walked away, none did. I would have been afraid of Ed. Someone, at sometime was going to get bad hurt in a conflict with him. By killing him, they saved someone, maybe, someone close to them.
Ed should have recognized the danger that old man represented. In a situation like this, an out of control idiot in a rage will usually lose to the guy standing there, ice water in his viens, mind made up to kill.
Ed was a bully, if they hadn't been armed, he would have attacked, and may have. I kinda hope he did, these guys weren't smart, but we don't know the past, and I would bet many here could have ended up in the same position.
Why is it that a cop can shoot someone under many different circumstances yet when a citizen does it he's headed for a murder rap .
Yeah maybe the guys are overweight maybe they should have walked away but as to what went down on video dead ed got 100% of what he needed .
And taking the words of a ''reporter'' is ''ridiculous'' . I'm 6'2" long arms baseball bat in hand reached outward the business end of the Bat will be no less than 2' from the old mans head . What would 2 cops have done to dead ed ? - why do citizens have to chance being killed while cops dump magazines into people who come at them with death threats . And dead ed would never have got within 20' of a cop without being shot to hell and back and I don't have a single problem with that .
Interested in hearing more details ''brought guns out'' & who went and got dead ed a baseball bat .
Fireball , you're probably right about the left propping dead ed's dumb wife up as a gun control advocate . Dress the hag up in some conservative classy looking clothes , hairdoo , manicure and tell her what to say , she be in the spotlight crying her eyes out , drunk every night taking a pain pill of three . All while raising some kids who ain't got a snowballs chance growing up with a mother like her .
Cops are special. They're up here (hold your hand up high), and we're down here (move your hand down to your knees). They can shoot whoever they want, in the name of public safety of course.
I run across any cops, I assume they're alcoholic loudmouths that get on internet forums and run people down because they have no social skills and their friends are the same. You can always spot em, they're up here, ^^^^^^ and we're down here, vvvvvvvvv.
The dialogue between OM and FB serves to confirm that FB is correct in his description of their place in the social/intellectual strata.
That conversation wasn't a shining example of culture and education. Well, good culture and education.
But watch these cop video's. Lots of F-bombs and other endearing niceties, flowing from our frequently college educated, upstanding officers.
Stress can do that, but it's ok if your wearing blue. If you are lower middle class, fat, standing in an alley, You are just trash.
Hell, why do you all care about the man boobs and their $$$, or lack of.
It could be the parking lot at the country club over a Porsche vs Benz in the spot at the door. The jerk in the orange Oxford needed shot by the guy in tennis gear.
Ho-li-phuc. You all are judgemental about chicken crap stuff. My guess is there are a lot of orange shirts around here.
That conversation wasn't a shining example of culture and education. Well, good culture and education.
But watch these cop video's. Lots of F-bombs and other endearing niceties, flowing from our frequently college educated, upstanding officers.
Stress can do that, but it's ok if your wearing blue. If you are lower middle class, fat, standing in an alley, You are just trash.
Hell, why do you all care about the man boobs and their $$$, or lack of.
It could be the parking lot at the country club over a Porsche vs Benz in the spot at the door. The jerk in the orange Oxford needed shot by the guy in tennis gear.
Ho-li-phuc. You all are judgemental about chicken crap stuff. My guess is there are a lot of orange shirts around here.
Garbage Guard wasn't there representing the city/county/state/feds. That's the difference from a legal perspective.
I took an old mattress left at one of my rentals one time. I could tell it was a good rig by all the springs and heaviness of it.
Carried it here to the farm and burned that mofo. Exposed all the springs, dug an impromptu bbq pit. Used that spring set to lay pork shoulders on. It was sweet!!! Meat was suspended 12" off the hickory coals. Lasted about a year and rusted pretty bad. I tossed it Wash Machine Holler up there hill on the back of the farm.
Guess them folks in that alley weren't industrious thinkers.
It's a really stupid way to die or stupid way to kill someone. Any or all could have just walked away at any time and prevented the killing.
I carry and will defend myself,but I would have walked away from those idiots real fast, even if I had been the one holding the gun.
Whoever decided to go get a gun and confront someone over garbage deserves prison.
I don't think it went like that. I suspect Ed had behaved threateningly in the recent past on the mattress issue, and these two thought it prudent to be armed when they had business there in case he decided to carry out his threats.
It's a really stupid way to die or stupid way to kill someone. Any or all could have just walked away at any time and prevented the killing.
I carry and will defend myself,but I would have walked away from those idiots real fast, even if I had been the one holding the gun.
Whoever decided to go get a gun and confront someone over garbage deserves prison.
I don't think it went like that. I suspect Ed had behaved threateningly in the recent past on the mattress issue, and these two thought it prudent to be armed when they had business there in case he decided to carry out his threats.
You telling me Ed wouldn't allow either of them back in their house? I'm saying,they might have had a right to be armed but they didn't have sense enough to be armed. If your attitude is."I'll kill any damn body that threatens me",you don't need a gun.
You do not understand the sequence of events. The old man did not seek conflict, he went out to throw away trash. He was armed at that time. Orange shirt had illegally dumped a mattress in the dumpster. This can be a health code problem, due to critters of all sorts. Old man removed the mattress that had not been desposed of properly (bulk pickup), and returned it to the offender's property. The load mouth confronted HIM, and it became heated. The son returned to the house for a shotgun to back up his father, and someone else armed orange shirt with a bat (lethal force and way too close). Loud mouth (orange) made death threats, and raised the bat to strike, and was shot by both defendants. One In defense of life, and one in defense of another. Orange shirt killed himself, by illegal dumping, then confronting an armed man, death threats, and attempted use of deadly force.
You telling me Ed wouldn't allow either of them back in their house? I'm saying,they might have had a right to be armed but they didn't have sense enough to be armed. If your attitude is."I'll kill any damn body that threatens me",you don't need a gun.
Not if he merely "threatens," but if someone is where he has a right to be (i.e., he is not trespassing), and someone attacks him in such a way as to put him in reasonable and imminent fear for his life or limb (such as Ed did here), his right to self defense permits him to act, and he has no duty to retreat (at least he has no duty to retreat under Florida law).
You do not understand the sequence of events. The old man did not seek conflict, he went out to throw away trash. He was armed at that time. Orange shirt had illegally dumped a mattress in the dumpster. This can be a health code problem, due to critters of all sorts. Old man removed the mattress that had not been desposed of properly (bulk pickup), and returned it to the offender's property. The load mouth confronted HIM, and it became heated. The son returned to the house for a shotgun to back up his father, and someone else armed orange shirt with a bat (lethal force and way too close). Loud mouth (orange) made death threats, and raised the bat to strike, and was shot by both defendants. One In defense of life, and one in defense of another. Orange shirt killed himself, by illegal dumping, then confronting an armed man, death threats, and attempted use of deadly force.
So dumbass and dumbass jr were playing dumpster cops, I hope they go for a different defense than that.
I'm not real sure........but I don't think self defense and stand your ground laws cover you under a situation you caused your self.
If the two surviving idiots get convicted and basically are removed from society - as was the dead idiot - it was a win for everyone not involved...
Why? Because they're overweight and not well to do?
No, because they're dumbasses and society is better off without them. If they do beat the rap though, you're free to move in next door to them if you like...
You do not understand the sequence of events. The old man did not seek conflict, he went out to throw away trash. He was armed at that time. Orange shirt had illegally dumped a mattress in the dumpster. This can be a health code problem, due to critters of all sorts. Old man removed the mattress that had not been desposed of properly (bulk pickup), and returned it to the offender's property. The load mouth confronted HIM, and it became heated. The son returned to the house for a shotgun to back up his father, and someone else armed orange shirt with a bat (lethal force and way too close). Loud mouth (orange) made death threats, and raised the bat to strike, and was shot by both defendants. One In defense of life, and one in defense of another. Orange shirt killed himself, by illegal dumping, then confronting an armed man, death threats, and attempted use of deadly force.
So dumbass and dumbass jr were playing dumpster cops, I hope they go for a different defense than that.
I'm not real sure........but I don't think self defense and stand your ground laws cover you under a situation you caused your self.
Nope, not dumpster cop, just the realities of living with group dumpsters. Had similar problems when I lived near OSU campus. I was armed for both two legged and four legged varmints, though in my case, it was with an axe handle. It is a prime location to get mugged, and animals are a major problem. I did the dance of death at the dumpster a couple of times. Once when I raised the lid I was attacked by 5 angry raccoons! It was touch and go for a while, my wife grabbed a butcher knife and ran out doors to the noise, and I broke that ash handle while fending off the swarm of attackers!. 4 went back into the dumpster dead. One ran for his life and never returned.
Geez guys, lighten up. He's not derailing anything. Very similar situation basically created by the shooter. You guys will pick a fight over anything, is everybody in a bad mood today or what?
Originally Posted by akasparky
Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Geez guys, lighten up. He's not derailing anything. Very similar situation basically created by the shooter. You guys will pick a fight over anything, is everybody in a bad mood today or what?
Geez guys, lighten up. He's not derailing anything. Very similar situation basically created by the shooter. You guys will pick a fight over anything, is everybody in a bad mood today or what? [
Thanks but don't pay him any mind.
Read back a little, he just don't like the term "Dumpster Cop".
Yet his reminiscing of how he saved his own life from a raccoon at a dumpster in Ohio is completely in lineament with the OP's story.
They took the mattress that “Ed” had thrown into the dumpster out and put it into his yard. I can guess the reason for this. In many apartment complexes and trailer parks the dumpsters are inadequate for the volume. It’s also usually against the rules. Someone throws a mattress or couch into the dumpster the dumpster overflows and the trash piles up around it. Now animals get at it and spread it around. It’s a real problem for the people who live by it. I was born with nothing and still have most of it left so I’ve lived in some of these situations. I’d be a real prick about someone throwing a mattress into the dumpster too.
Blubbergut started the trouble by taking box springs out of the dumpster and putting them in Mr Ed's yard. Even a self appointed Alley Cop doesn't have the right to put trash on someone else's property. The dumpster doesn't belong to Blubbergut and he has no authority to remove trash from it or place trash someone else's property even if it's a rental. Then instead of withdrawing he repeatedly taunted Mr Ed. Yes Blubber & Son had a right to be on public property, but no right to put trash in somebody else's yard and continue to provoke. There's also going to be a problem with the number and spacing of the gunshots. Can't imagine the last 2 we're needed to keep Mr Ed from boarding the Blubber Train.
They took the mattress that “Ed” had thrown into the dumpster out and put it into his yard. I can guess the reason for this. In many apartment complexes and trailer parks the dumpsters are inadequate for the volume. It’s also usually against the rules. Someone throws a mattress or couch into the dumpster the dumpster overflows and the trash piles up around it. Now animals get at it and spread it around. It’s a real problem for the people who live by it. I was born with nothing and still have most of it left so I’ve lived in some of these situations. I’d be a real prick about someone throwing a mattress into the dumpster too.
I would just not said a word, and waited until late one night and burned it on Ed's yard.
Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Yes, there is a great deal of difference. Your Florida shooter has decided to pick a fight over something that doesn't even effect him directly. The trash shooter is dealing with someone else's mess left in his way. It does effect him, and the guy who does it is unstable, so he feels the need to be prepared. He is going about his daily life, and is not seeking conflict. He is not picking a fight, and he didn't start the problem. He has gone over and above to remove the problem from the dumpster. It's not his fault, but it is his problem to solve, because it DOES effect him directly. The only two things these events have in common is an aggressor got shot, and the question after the fact of did stand your ground apply?
It would not matter here, because we do not have stand your ground, except in my own home. I would be forced to retreat as these guys should have done. It should not have come to a shooting, but the issue has nothing to do with the damn mattress. That was just the trigger. The issue is about agression and threat, and self defense. Not dumpster rules.
You do not understand the sequence of events. The old man did not seek conflict, he went out to throw away trash. He was armed at that time. Orange shirt had illegally dumped a mattress in the dumpster. This can be a health code problem, due to critters of all sorts. Old man removed the mattress that had not been desposed of properly (bulk pickup), and returned it to the offender's property. The load mouth confronted HIM, and it became heated. The son returned to the house for a shotgun to back up his father, and someone else armed orange shirt with a bat (lethal force and way too close). Loud mouth (orange) made death threats, and raised the bat to strike, and was shot by both defendants. One In defense of life, and one in defense of another. Orange shirt killed himself, by illegal dumping, then confronting an armed man, death threats, and attempted use of deadly force.
You do not understand the sequence of events. The old man did not seek conflict, he went out to throw away trash. He was armed at that time. Orange shirt had illegally dumped a mattress in the dumpster. This can be a health code problem, due to critters of all sorts. Old man removed the mattress that had not been desposed of properly (bulk pickup), and returned it to the offender's property. The load mouth confronted HIM, and it became heated. The son returned to the house for a shotgun to back up his father, and someone else armed orange shirt with a bat (lethal force and way too close). Loud mouth (orange) made death threats, and raised the bat to strike, and was shot by both defendants. One In defense of life, and one in defense of another. Orange shirt killed himself, by illegal dumping, then confronting an armed man, death threats, and attempted use of deadly force.
Whole lotta stupid going on in that video. As my brother in law, the retired Police Sargent occasionally says: "Everyone has the right to remain silent. Not everyone has the ability...."
Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Yes, there is a great deal of difference. Your Florida shooter has decided to pick a fight over something that doesn't even effect him directly. The trash shooter is dealing with someone else's mess left in his way. It does effect him, and the guy who does it is unstable, so he feels the need to be prepared. He is going about his daily life, and is not seeking conflict. He is not picking a fight, and he didn't start the problem. He has gone over and above to remove the problem from the dumpster. It's not his fault, but it is his problem to solve, because it DOES effect him directly. The only two things these events have in common is an aggressor got shot, and the question after the fact of did stand your ground apply?
It would not matter here, because we do not have stand your ground, except in my own home. I would be forced to retreat as these guys should have done. It should not have come to a shooting, but the issue has nothing to do with the damn mattress. That was just the trigger. The issue is about agression and threat, and self defense. Not dumpster rules.
Both the parking lot shooter and these two Rhodes scholars are in the same category if you ask me.
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think it was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed now was it?
I don't pretend to know what happened other than what I saw on the video, but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million different ways to do that - and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed was it? I don't tenor what happened other than what I saw on the video but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million ways to do that, and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
I have a next door neighbor who routinely left his garbage can on the corner of my front lawn. That's bad enough, but he left it there lidless, so it fills up with rain water and breeds mosquitoes. Finally, I had enough of this and dragged it over (they are on wheels) to be on his front lawn instead of mine, full about halfway with rain water, and loaded with mosquitoes. It never again returned to my property. He got the message.
Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Yes, there is a great deal of difference. Your Florida shooter has decided to pick a fight over something that doesn't even effect him directly. The trash shooter is dealing with someone else's mess left in his way. It does effect him, and the guy who does it is unstable, so he feels the need to be prepared. He is going about his daily life, and is not seeking conflict. He is not picking a fight, and he didn't start the problem. He has gone over and above to remove the problem from the dumpster. It's not his fault, but it is his problem to solve, because it DOES effect him directly. The only two things these events have in common is an aggressor got shot, and the question after the fact of did stand your ground apply?
It would not matter here, because we do not have stand your ground, except in my own home. I would be forced to retreat as these guys should have done. It should not have come to a shooting, but the issue has nothing to do with the damn mattress. That was just the trigger. The issue is about agression and threat, and self defense. Not dumpster rules.
Both the parking lot shooter and these two Rhodes scholars are in the same category if you ask me.
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed was it? I don't tenor what happened other than what I saw on the video but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million ways to do that, and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
It is not seeking conflict to deal with the mess someone else left behind. Case in point: if you feed stray cats, and it causes a problem in the neighborhood, I am not seeking conflict with you when I start trapping and drown the little bastages. You may not like it, but it ain't about you, its dealing with the problem you created. The old man dealt with the problem by removing the mattress. He didn't create the problem, but he did work to stop it. Loud mouth didn't like it, but it ain't about him. It's his problem to deal with his own mates legally, not to dump it on someone else.
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed was it? I don't tenor what happened other than what I saw on the video but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million ways to do that, and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
I have a next door neighbor who routinely left his garbage can on the corner of my front lawn. That's bad enough, but he left it there lidless, so it fills up with rain water and breeds mosquitoes. Finally, I had enough of this and dragged it over (they are on wheels) to be in front of his house instead of mine, full about halfway with rain water, and loaded with mosquitoes. It never again returned to my property. He got the message.
Would you say I was at fault for provoking him?
At fault for what? I've done exactly the same thing with my neighbors garbage can. This is an entirely different situation. He didn't leave his garbage can on his property.
Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Yes, there is a great deal of difference. Your Florida shooter has decided to pick a fight over something that doesn't even effect him directly. The trash shooter is dealing with someone else's mess left in his way. It does effect him, and the guy who does it is unstable, so he feels the need to be prepared. He is going about his daily life, and is not seeking conflict. He is not picking a fight, and he didn't start the problem. He has gone over and above to remove the problem from the dumpster. It's not his fault, but it is his problem to solve, because it DOES effect him directly. The only two things these events have in common is an aggressor got shot, and the question after the fact of did stand your ground apply?
It would not matter here, because we do not have stand your ground, except in my own home. I would be forced to retreat as these guys should have done. It should not have come to a shooting, but the issue has nothing to do with the damn mattress. That was just the trigger. The issue is about agression and threat, and self defense. Not dumpster rules.
Both the parking lot shooter and these two Rhodes scholars are in the same category if you ask me.
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed was it? I don't tenor what happened other than what I saw on the video but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million ways to do that, and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
It is not seeking conflict to deal with the mess someone else left behind. Case in point: if you feed stray cats, and it causes a problem in the neighborhood, I am not seeking conflict with you when I start trapping and drown the little bastages. You may not like it, but it ain't about you, its feeling with the problem you created. The old man dealt with the problem by removing the mattress. He didn't create the problem, but he did work to stop it. Loud mouth didn't like it, but it ain't about him. It's his problem to deal with his own mates legally, not to dump it on someone else.
We can argue ad nauseam about it but I doubt we'll convince each other. Let's just agree to disagree. By the way, I'd be the last guy in the neighborhood feeding stray cats...
Nope. He put his belongings on your property. The Alley Cops don't own the dumpster or the alley it's in.
It interfered with the normal use of the dumpster.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by shootem
Nope. He put his belongings on your property. The Alley Cops don't own the dumpster or the alley it's in.
It interfered with the normal use of the dumpster.
They don't own the dumpster or it's contents. No authority to enforce Dumpster Law so no authority to put trash in Mr Ed's yard whether it's his or not. Created the dispute then antagonized. Plenty of stoopid to go around but the Lardinlaws gonna pay.
Does the dumpster have any bearing on the guilt of dad and son?
Seems to me the crime that will be tried is the killing of Ed not the legal or illegal dumping and trash removal.
Ed threatened the defendants lives, was armed with a bat, and was the aggressor. At least that’s the way I saw it.
Me too, but some are suggesting that the father and son started it all by doing something wrong vis a vis the mattress. I don't see that they did anything wrong. The blame for Ed's death is on Ed and his wife who egged him on.
Does the dumpster have any bearing on the guilt of dad and son?
Seems to me the crime that will be tried is the killing of Ed not the legal or illegal dumping and trash removal.
Ed threatened the defendants lives, was armed with a bat, and was the aggressor. At least that’s the way I saw it.
Me too, but some are suggesting that the father and son started it all by doing something wrong vis a vis the mattress. I don't see that they did anything wrong. The blame for Ed's death is on Ed and his wife who egged him on.
The biggest mistake Ed made was bringing a fist to a gunfight.
Those guys all put themselves in a situation that was easily avoidable. The dead guy and the live ones are all to blame. The dead one already paid the price, now the two live ones should as well. Stupidity is no excuse and that is ultimately what caused the situation.
Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Yes, there is a great deal of difference. Your Florida shooter has decided to pick a fight over something that doesn't even effect him directly. The trash shooter is dealing with someone else's mess left in his way. It does effect him, and the guy who does it is unstable, so he feels the need to be prepared. He is going about his daily life, and is not seeking conflict. He is not picking a fight, and he didn't start the problem. He has gone over and above to remove the problem from the dumpster. It's not his fault, but it is his problem to solve, because it DOES effect him directly. The only two things these events have in common is an aggressor got shot, and the question after the fact of did stand your ground apply?
It would not matter here, because we do not have stand your ground, except in my own home. I would be forced to retreat as these guys should have done. It should not have come to a shooting, but the issue has nothing to do with the damn mattress. That was just the trigger. The issue is about agression and threat, and self defense. Not dumpster rules.
Both the parking lot shooter and these two Rhodes scholars are in the same category if you ask me.
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed was it? I don't tenor what happened other than what I saw on the video but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million ways to do that, and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
It is not seeking conflict to deal with the mess someone else left behind. Case in point: if you feed stray cats, and it causes a problem in the neighborhood, I am not seeking conflict with you when I start trapping and drown the little bastages. You may not like it, but it ain't about you, its feeling with the problem you created. The old man dealt with the problem by removing the mattress. He didn't create the problem, but he did work to stop it. Loud mouth didn't like it, but it ain't about him. It's his problem to deal with his own mates legally, not to dump it on someone else.
We can argue ad nauseam about it but I doubt we'll convince each other. Let's just agree to disagree. By the way, I'd be the last guy in the neighborhood feeding stray cats...
Ok, but you might be a known drunk with a mean streak. You've tied one on, and the street is littered with your beer bottles. I clean it up and dump it in your trash dumpster, where it belongs. Have I provoked you? Do I have any obligation to care about your mental state?
Ok, but you might be a known drunk with a mean streak. You've tied one on, and the street is littered with your beer bottles. I clean it up and dump it in your trash dumpster, where it belongs. Have I provoked you? Do I have any obligation to care about your mental state?
I have never had an issue with my neighbors after they cleaned up after me. Matter of fact, I encourage it.
[quote=akasparky]Yeah there is a ton of difference between a dumpster cop with a gun and a parking spot cop with a gun...
Yes, there is a great deal of difference. Your Florida shooter has decided to pick a fight over something that doesn't even effect him directly. The trash shooter is dealing with someone else's mess left in his way. It does effect him, and the guy who does it is unstable, so he feels the need to be prepared. He is going about his daily life, and is not seeking conflict. He is not picking a fight, and he didn't start the problem. He has gone over and above to remove the problem from the dumpster. It's not his fault, but it is his problem to solve, because it DOES effect him directly. The only two things these events have in common is an aggressor got shot, and the question after the fact of did stand your ground apply?
It would not matter here, because we do not have stand your ground, except in my own home. I would be forced to retreat as these guys should have done. It should not have come to a shooting, but the issue has nothing to do with the damn mattress. That was just the trigger. The issue is about agression and threat, and self defense. Not dumpster rules.
Both the parking lot shooter and these two Rhodes scholars are in the same category if you ask me.
You think Blubber boy was "not seeking conflict" by taking the mattress back out of the dumpster and dumping it back it in the admittedly "unstable" guy's yard? I don't think was exactly meant to endear him to crazy Ed was it? I don't tenor what happened other than what I saw on the video but IMHO, if he was truly trying to avoid the situation that ensued I can think of about a million ways to do that, and none of them involve what he actually did. Just saying. Your mileage may vary...
We can argue ad nauseam about it but I doubt we'll convince each other. Let's just agree to disagree. By the way, I'd be the last guy in the neighborhood feeding stray cats...
Ok, but you might be a known drunk with a mean streak. You've tied one on, and the street is littered with your beer bottles. I clean it up and dump it in your trash dumpster, where it belongs. Have I provoked you? Do I have any obligation to care about your mental state?
You guys keep bringing up this garbage thing but it is an entirely different situation. As a matter of fact they are the ones dumping illegally by doing what they did. The dumpster doesn't belong to either of them. It occupies an area that doesn't belong to either of them.
When fat boy took the mattress out of it and dumped it in Ed's yard he did something illegal. That's a fact. He had no right to do that regardless of the fact that the mattress' presence was inconveniencing him.
As I said, there are a million ways he could've handled the situation and avoided what happened. All of them better than dumping the trash in the lunatic's yard then waiting for him in the alley with a gun. I would hope ANY reasonable, thinking person could understand that.
If you can't see that then there's really no purpose in continuing the debate. As I said, let's just agree to disagree.
Come on down to Ed's Mattress Warehouse and give our beds a try free for 30 days! If you don't get the best sleep of your life, throw it in the dumpster out in the alley, just make sure your neighbor doesn't see ya!
How the argument started has nothing to do with the issues that will decide if it’s murder or self defense. Ed repeatedly threatened to kill the old man and son and then approached with a deadly weapon. There was no duty to retreat and it looks like self defense to me. There may be facts not known to any of us yet but the old man was very calm and I believe knew where he stood with the law. The police and local prosecutors may run them through the machine but I believe they will be vindicated in their use of deadly force. Not saying they all were not being stupid but obviously the father and son were waaayyyy smarter than Ed. Ed’s dead...
That part of town is. Every town has a hood, a barrio, and a white trash area too. We actually have a very low crime rate. Usually less than 5 or 6 murders a year here. Pretty low for a population of over 120K. Maybe your town is SPECIAL. 🤨
I'm just saying he wasn't wrong to put it back in his yard. Has nothing to do with the justification issue. It was justified because the father and son duo weren't in the wrong when Ed threatened to kill them, then got a baseball bat and appeared to be on his way to doing just that, then and there. That's what makes it justified. You don't need to even think about the dumpster. Only reason we're talking about the dumpster is because some folks here are suggesting that it in some way justified Ed's actions, thus making everyone equally wrong. The only criminal here was Ed.
! I’d say you’re correct !
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