I saw a thread here a few weeks ago about making hollow points out of standard ammunition. I did the research and found tools by Neal Waltz and Paco Kelly. The Waltz die seemed the best way to go, so I ordered one and made up some hollow points. It was easy to do and he claims it will make your 22 rimfire ammo more consistent and accurate. I like that, but making 22 longs into hollow points really sounds attractive. I did a box in a few minutes, now I need it to warm up enough to get out and see how they work in the old Winchesters I have chambered for the 22 long cartridge...

Nice. How much did the die cost you.

The luckiest shot I have ever seen made was with an old Remington pump and a 22 Long, first try and it was a miracle!

They make a nice looking hollow point.

That’d be handy for use w/ CCI standard velocity stuff & squirrel Ammo.

neat idea, but I have 20K+ plus already.

We always cut an X in the tip.Worked about the same

+1

Aren’t longs a little light already.....adding a hp, would seem to make them very light for caliber! Of course, penetration was probably “not” the desired outcome! memtb

Now, THAT's a hollowpoint.

I knew all that snow would drive you stir spendy.

Thats a pretty large hp.

I am not happy with the large hole HPs Federal started putting in their 22 mag ammo several years ago. They seem to lose accuracy and often put keyholes in paper at over 100 yds out of my Win 9422mag, Shrap.

And I thought I was the Village Loony.

You could almost put a small rifle primer in there....

Hollowpoint Longs?

I doubt you have any longs. They are hard to find at all and impossible with hollow points...

.

100 yards? I have a Hornet for those kind of shots...

Cool!!!!

We want a report on how they work on small critters.
That big Cavity looks like it just might work well.

What's the advantage? The long rifle HP that I buy for @ $20 a brick seems to kill prairie dogs just fine.

It doesn't remove metal it presses a bigger hollow point in & sizes each round .

.......Same here... Learned that one from some old timers back in the 1960's. That's what they did back in the pre-WWII days.

You did notice i said 22 Mag.

i shot a dove out of the air at about 100 yds. can't get much luckier than that !
don't have any idea if it was a hollow-point !

I bet after drilling out that .22 Long, they will zip right along!

Agreed.....It's certainly worth a try since HP Longs aren't available.

Ah Hah!

This proves that people snowed in for a while go stir-crazy.

















BTW, have a new boat for us to try when the snow melts and the fish get hot.

July???

Haven't seen .22 Longs on the shelf since the early 70s and they were scarce then..

technology continues to advance along. we humans mark the changes, and adapt as we are interested.

a flattened .22 rf tip could hit pretty hard. i think federal markets them as a small game ammo.

i have shot longs, but they cost as much as the long rifles, so i was forced to choose.

Those look good.
Hunting season closed in TN today.

If then... Talked to Gary MacDonald at MacDonald's Marina today about pulling my boat out. He just laughed and said "fine, if you can find the ramp". It was still snowing.

off-topic, but i really don't know why we have a system of hunting seasons anymore?

i mean, most folks no longer hunt, and those that do don't eat what they shoot.

pay some license fees to the gov't, and follow the rules i reckon.

long .22 is good, looks like the market has moved to .22LR?

I had Paco Kelly's version some years back, believe it got loaned out and not returned. Anyhow, we used to shoot gophers every weekend, there seemed to be an endless supply. I was never real impressed with standard hp .22 ammo, a good percentage of the gophers made it back down the hole. After using the Paco Kelly tool, the ammo was much more effective. The version I had came with two rods, one for hollowpointing a d one for doing a wide dished point. Both worked well, I used the HP rod most as it also widened the nose while making a wide deep hollowpoint. Far fewer runner with those bullets, wish I still had it....if we still had gophers to shoot I'd get another.

I looked at that tool, but to pound on the bottom to drive the hollow point into the bullet didn’t seem very safe. This die, although it isn’t cheap, does work easy and quickly. I need to get some of these shot to see just how well they work...

Looks bad azz!

I like RN rimfire ammo over HP though. Have seen better accuracy and the lead is usually soft enough to expand easily. My experience at least.

I looked at the .22 longs that I have, some are pretty old and some are newer, but none had a hollow point. I might have more upstairs in my main collection.

Shrapnel, Do you know if they EVER made HP .22 longs to your knowledge?

If they did, I never saw any. When I was a kid, I had a paper route and all my money went into 22 ammunition. Longs were cheaper than long rifles so we always bought 22 longs. Not only that, but you could get more rounds into a tube magazine with longs...

Yeah I'll admit it made me a bit nervous, but I was younger then. I did thousands of rounds with it, flattened some out so much I had load them singly by hand, and somehow managed to never touch one off. The system you have looks WAY better, if the gophers ever make a comeback I'd invest in that.
I did use the real wide flat nose I made on some beavers too, might have just been my imagination but I sure felt like they worked much better than they did out of the box.

AcesNeights;
Good evening to you sir, I hope that the winter has abated somewhat in your part of the world and this finds you and yours well tonight.

I see that I am not the only 'Fire member who collects rimfire ammo - though perhaps there's not a whole lot more of us with what might be a somewhat unique ailment?

In particular I try to find Canuck made ammo and also some from different lands like Argentina or South Africa.



I too would have to go look to see if I've got any HP Longs, somehow I want to say I don't actually.

Up here across the medicine line it's been years, likely decades really, since I've run across longs in a store - oh other than CB Longs which I picked up maybe 20 - 25 years back.

Also to the OP that's a really cool setup shrapnel, I'd likely get one if I found one up here, just to see what happens if nothing else.

All the best to you all as we hopefully head sooner than later into warmer weather.

Dwayne

I even have some of that Canuck stuff, if you want it, you are welcome to come down and shoot some varmints and pick it up...

shrapnel;
Thanks kindly for the reply and the invite sir - I would like nothing better than to meet you and shoot some rodents in the same trip.

Perhaps it's another thing to add to my retirement bucket list for sure.

On the CIL Canuck stuff, I want to say it'd be from the late '60's as they went to the Imperial brand in the early '70's - I think..... They're the ones directly to the right of the Canuck stuff on the shelf. The last Imperial production stuff is in the vertical box second to the left of the right side. The right side ones are older - prewar I believe, sold under the Dominion name but all made by the same company

The Canuck stuff you've got might well be a bit earlier than that too shrapnel, but it's not much later than that. I recall those boxes around various farms when I was a kid in the late '60's so that's why I'm guessing that time frame.

I wonder if "Troop 445" means it was Department of Defense stuff for air cadets or something similar? A buddy's father used to get some DOD marked stuff for air cadet use sometimes and sometimes it was just the Imperial stuff.

Thanks again and all the best to you as we head into spring shrapnel.

Dwayne

Making .22 hollow points.

I see you're enjoying your retirement. Good on ya, that's what it's all about.

already back from Arizona?

I have rolled two ducks with a round nose. One shot. Call it luck.

The watz is a great system,, a friend an I HP a bunch every year, they are absolutly devastating on small game, we kill 200-400 squirrels every year and shoot groups every other week or so,,If you want to eliminate crawl offs,due to a bad hit,and you want an increased wound channel this is the way to go, We use alot of subsonic/standard vel, our results with this dye is awsome,, even a sub sonic with a large hollow point like your pic will turn a squirrel head into a canoe,,, and as far as accuracy goes,, I shoot dime groups out to 70 yds consistantly,,with 3 diff rifles ,Ruger,Anschutz,and CZ,, Also Hollowpointing does not change the weight of the bullet ,40grain stays 40 grain it does displace the weight but so insignificantly,doest change the balance or lead densities in any of my tests,,

This is my understanding of the value of the die. It is supposed to swage the bullet as well as put the hollow cavity in the end of the bullet. Neal told me that the bullet will end up at .225 inches and will be consistent, which is an improvement over the stock bullet when they come from the factory.

I measured the finished bullets with a dial caliper and they were all at .225...

In my opinion ,,you will have a better bullet than 95% of the stock ou there,,

The most impressive thing about this undertaking is that you got them all back into that box just like they left the factory.

I seriously doubt that.

you would be wrong. I happen to like .22 long as a back yard squirrel round

I had to use longs on the property I had access to when I was a teenager. Uncle said they didn't carry as far and I guess he was right. Took all of east Texas small game up to foxes with the RN version never saw any HP's. I liked regular long rifles for turtle shooting!

I still see longs on the shelf, both the HV and CB/subsonic variety, as well as shorts. For some odd reason, our Walmart even stocks them. Now that they cost more than .22lr, they've lost most of their reason for existence, other than for old pre .22lr rifles, and for those who want a quiet round and can't use suppressors. But even my ancient family 1906 will run LRs, and CCI Quiet is readily available with more impact power, so even those niches are disappearing, sadly.

For those using the Waltz or Paco accurizer dies to bump up bullet diameter: do you have any trouble chambering rounds in tighter match/Anschutz/ Bentz chambers?

Waaay back in the pre internet days, it was rumored the longs were the most accurate of the three in hunting type rifles. I always shot Long Rifles because the old Model 90 Winchester I grew up with was chambered only for them. I only shot hollow points, and still do, because they will stick a headshot bullfrog right where he is sitting. Solid bullets result in a jump into the water at least half the time.

I saw an interesting YouTube video the other day testing penetration at 300 yards of high velocity 22 long rifle rounds. Shot completely through a 5 inch thick pork roast wrapped in denim. I was surprised.

Dwayne, It’s always nice hearing from you. Thanks for your reply and your picture of quite a collection. I have some of the Imperial.22 longs but not as many as you have. I checked some old boxes of Sears & Roebuck Sta-clean and a few others that have gone the way of the dinosaur and none have a hollow point. A few years back I took all my loose ammo and broken boxes and put them in a big plastic container. I now regret mixing the longs with the long rifles but our boys shoot a bolt action around the house and they don’t notice or care about the details, as long as it goes bang there’s usually a dead starling or other vermin that didn’t notice either. I know myself and I fear that I’ll be on a lifelong quest to find hollow point .22 longs.

All my best to you and yours Dwayne, I hope spring finds you guys earlier and summer isn’t fraught with wildfires but living out west I know that’s a tall order.

I kilt a bunch of skwerls with a 22.

I ain't seen a skwerl yet that could tell if it was a hollow point or a solid.

Am I killing 'em wrong ?


Mike

I’m curious...have any of you ever found a 22 rf that was not pretty accurate if you found the ammo it liked best?

I haven’t.

You have 20K HP Longs?

You trying to join me on his ignore list? ( it’s pretty crowded here)

Not that I can recall. Baring, of course, a defect in the barrel all the .22’s I’ve owned and shot have been very accurate. Some more accurate and less finicky than others but they all shot well.

He's a grumpy-grump.

I always enjoy dropping a grumpy in the toilet.

Rem ammo has always been s hit in my experience. Ftf, eject.......
cci has done me good.

What does the tool look like that makes the HP?
Is it that rod in the right rear back ground?
Just slip it over the round in the holder and give it a smack ?
You say it resize,s the round
Does it expand and move the ogive forward some when it compresses out the hollow point?
It looks like it did from original to the HP one in the pics.
Create more bearing surface on the bullet?

Kinda interested in it .

My gunsmith was a pretty well known Benchrest Shooter and he told me that if I had a 22 that wasn’t shooting good enough to suit me, I should buy a box of Eley Match ammo to see what it was capable of and then to buy a box each of several different cheaper brands to find which one it shot best. I found that to be good advice.

My old Winchester Model 69A shoots white box Winchester almost as good as it does the Ely. CCI standard velocity is next best and Remington not as good as the others.

I like cci velocitor, small game bullet, minimag 40,s and blazer.
Blazer will surprise ya if ya weigh it out.

Alot of what I found was the longer the bearing surface the more accurate and consistent the ammo was.

Aguilar rifle match is pretty good but dirty.

Blazer for its price and if ya weight it to 51.8 grains will amaze.
Be interesting to make some blazer HP,s.

Velocitor if weighed it is very accurate and hard hitting.


JMO.

Never shot many .22 Longs.

Not sure why they aren't more popular, even more widespread or manufactured. I guess demand is low.

Shouldn't be too hard to do. Isn't a Long just a LR case with a 22 short bullet?

Shrapnel, Does your die remove the lead thereby creating a lighter bullet or does it just slightly lengthen the bullet by displacing the the lead for the hollow point? It makes a nice wide and consistent “hole” in any case. 👍

My Ruger 77/22 will knock soda cans off the fence at 85 yards with Remington Viper's with ease

Ok .
Google fu.


Interesting this version use,s a reloading press and the other ya have ta hit

It does displace and modify bullet profile and increase bearing surface , which is a good thing.

It is extremely well machined. It has a top punch as well as a hole punch to make the hollow point. It is completely adjustable to how much of a hollow point you want in the bullet...

The die doesn't remove any weight.
It reshapes the lead.

It is not like the Forster setup that used a drill bit to make the hollow point. It swages the hollow point into the bullet and expands the diameter of the bullet to a constant diameter.

Ya I looked at a pretty lengthy article

I'm geussing the deeper you go it also offsets upward with the tooling adjustments and increase,s the bearing surface lenght to a max at a certain point.


Can probably find a sweet spot for really good accuracy experimenting with bearing surface lenght.

That article had alot of shot target results .
And a bunch of dead small game results

Pretty interesting.

I don't know why you'd bother buying a tool for it. Was posted earlier. Cut an X in the bullet and you're good to go. Swages the bullet to a uniform diameter and everything.

You aren’t making much sense there, just what are you trying to say?

With this generation’s geniuses you are only required to know what they mean. They are not required to articulate in order to convey.

It'll be interesting to see a before and after comparison on paper. The idea makes sense.

Have used a Neil Waltz size die set for 8 years it has a round nose, flat point and a hollow point nose dies. I have found for under 50 yards the flat point is a better killer, and will penetrate straight with a 65% meplat.
You will find out that if your gun has a Match chamber you will have a hard time extracting live rounds in semi-auto's.
Using the die set it can improve groups 30% with bulk ammo.

I tried chambering the cartridges in both the 1873 and low wall and there was no problem getting them chambered or extracted. I really didn’t expect any problems as nether gun would likely have a match chamber...

coyotewacker;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this finds you well and warm.

I've got to say that reading that article on the modified bullets and watching a couple videos was educational to say the least.

If you don't mind I'd be curious as to what game you're speaking of when you found the flat point killed better.

We'd mainly be targeting the very odd grouse with head shots, so the additional accuracy is what we'd be looking for, but once in awhile my daughter will take some snowshoe hare's home for her husband who makes fantastic rabbit stews with them.

Anyway, it appears I'm going to be saving for another shooting gizmo now - that is is Mr. Waltz can ship one across the medicine line.

Thanks in advance and thanks again to shrapnel for sending me down this path for an education!

All the best to you all as we hopefully head into spring.

Dwayne

Oooh.
Like a Hesh round......
What a grand idea.

And what generation would I be? lmao

I was making a barbed yet friendly poke to point that earlier in the thread was posted "we did the same thing by cutting x's in them back in the depression." Thus calling into issue the usefulness of Shrapnels' new tool. If one took the time to read or was familiar with the tool they do more than just put a cavity in the end of the bullet.

I hope you don't count yourself as a genius of whatever generation you may be, as having to paint by numbers explain things is rather counter indicative.

Dwayne....Were doing well up here.

I always have a 22LR on my hip or within arms reach for something for the pot or vermin.....I have found that round nose can make some crazy turns and at times tumble shooting in flesh and bone. Hollow Points just don't penetrate as deep as a round nose. Making a flat point on a 22LR and standard velocity ammo is just plan deadly and will penetrate deeper than a HP. Couple years ago we had a plague of red pine squirrels, they were every where. Some shot in the chest with a round nose would run 10-15 yards. Everyone shot with a flat point were DRT, even gut shot didn't go far. I shoot a couple dozen grouse a year, not all head shots, high at the wing joints puts them down on longer shots. Shots on running snowshoes in the chest puts them down. Chest shot coons and possums give their ghost reel quick. Trapped coyotes and cats head shot give up their ghost at the shot, minimal blood.

There's 2 companies I know of that make Flat Nose ammo. I've never tried either one.

CCI makes a Flat Point.....https://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=2&loadNo=0058
Eley makes a Flat Point....http://eley.co.uk/eley-edge/

My way of thinking 22 LR is similar to centerfire handgun ammo, no one is going to shoot Round Nose for defense or hunting. If your a cast bullet shooter its going to have a Flat Nose, you want a bullet to drive deep with minimum expansion, creating trauma in its path. Not many cast bullets have a hollow point.

You can actually hear the difference when the flat nose hits a rabbit or gopher. It has a distinct pop to it and does create a better killing factor on those critters. The Waltz tool has the nose flattening die in it to make a larger meplet on the 22 as well. I think I will stick to the hollow points as penetration in a rabbit or gopher isn't a real concern...

CCI SGB / small game bullet is very accurate.
Does 1235 fps along with the 40 gr mini mag and 40 gr blazer
All shoot to same POI
Mini mag being around .75 ish at 50 yards 10 shots
Blazer around .50 to .75
SGB consistent at .50

Out of savage mk11 fluted

They get even better ( espicallly blazer for its cost) if ya weight sort em to eliminate flyers that blow out groups.

Kinda wonder how blazer would do if ran thru the hollow point die set up Shrapnel has.

I had a set from Neal Waltz and gave it away as it is easier to just buy what i want without pissing about.

You can't find 22 longs hardly and none that are hollow points...

coyotewacker & shrapnel;
Top of the morning to both of you, I trust all is well with your respective lives on this first Sunday in March.

Thanks much to you both for the range reports, I appreciate it and would have to say it makes sense to me for sure.

I've sent an email query to Mr. Waltz to see if he can ship one north of the medicine line or not. One never knows these days anymore what may or may not be acceptable.

Thanks again and all the best to you both as we head into spring.

Dwayne

yes, how much did the set up cost?

You bring up a good point. I figure we will be doing a magazine article on this in the near future. To take all sorts of ammunition and run them through the die and then check before and after accuracy will be very revealing. I am with JSTUART on the messing around with ammo that is already made and works. I know different brands of ammo will shoot differently in many guns, to find out if this die changes that could be an interesting study...

Go for it .
Your retired.
Espically bulk ammo like the blazer.
Stuff is like 22- 23 a brick.

Point aside from the HP modification.


I got on the weighing thing after looking at vid clips doing Google fu

Lots of guys will find the lot # and the accurate weight of certain brands of bulk ammo
Then once that info is out their people are scrambling to find that lot number.
Alot of the lot numbers are also regional based distribution based on supply and demand.
And shoot said known accurate weight and just use the rest for plinking.
Actual links on the web with dudes posting data and weights and lot numbers.

Same goes for 50 and 100 boxes of said known tighter shooting lot numbers of various brands of .22

I have seen the variance in lot # accuracy from shooting , in group size and POI.
Makes ya feel , "like crap I shoulda bought 5 bricks of that instead of just 2 of em, 3 or 4 yrs ago".

I got tons I could test. I bought 22 ammo when it was still $8.00/brick and I don't even shoot the stuff. Just 22 longs in the cool old winchesters has me looking at this tool...

Running into being called out for sharing "tinkering around info" is also a "benefit".....
You will run into that eventually.

I didn't know that. Guess I've been doing it wrong for years.

It was $165.00...

I got mine for a smoking deal.....$2.50 at a barn sale.....guy cleaned out houses from foreclosures.....had milk crates of ammo and reloading equipment....bought everything he had 15 milk crates....$200 and 2 face cords of oak....