I pride myself on being logical guy. Engineer, aviator responsible and accountable for what I say and do but I realize that I have a wide romantic streak when it comes to my outdoor activities and it seems to be growing as I accelerate through my mid-50’s

Pat Powell pointed in a recent thread, quit accurately, that no serious clay shooter would use a side by side shotgun and while I do use an over and under for clays (a 30 year old Beretta 682), I’d much rather carry a two trigger side by side in the field even though it likely hurts my bird to shell ratio.

I was doing some 6.5x55 Swede reloading this afternoon and looking over the stack of dies, I realized, with the sole exception of the 7-08, that the cartridges I load for are all 60+ years old and a couple are closing rapidly on a century or in the case of the Swede and the .22 HP more than.

When fishing there is little place I’d rather be than on a trout stream with dry flies and a bamboo rod even though I know that unless there is an active hatch that most of the trout are likely to ignore me.

I do make compromises, good scopes to deal with middle aged eyes, an ultra-light vice the fly rod when fishing from the kayak, modern bullets and certainly modern dry/light clothing but I find when thinking about the best of times in the outdoors it seems to be something I prefer to look backwards instead of forward. Perhaps too much reading of Ruark, Buckingham and Traver and Sparse Grey Hackle as an impressionable youth?

How about you? (and note when I say "romantic notions, it doesn't mean the .223AI )

This is exactly why I will never own a 6.5 Creedmoor...

Yep.

Guilty. Sxs shotguns, Mauser and Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles. Wooden boats, cork decoys. I've got it bad. Hammer guns, damascus guns, Gordon Setters. I'm a dinosaur.

I mean if people would just stop talking about all this new stuff.....I might take a look at it.


Of course, my stubbornness and pride have made it so I miss out on neat and fun things in the past....and no doubt will in the future.


I am good with that.


They got this new thing out now.....bacon that comes already sliced!!!!


I would not get to use my Grandfather's "bacon knife" if I bought that schit!

This^^^. Im too good to need one, and that doesnt mean im good, either. Im just a whole lot better than i was before range finders.

I shoot our 5-stand sporting clays and skeet leagues w/a 20ga Beretta SxS (626), and I hunt pheasants and sharptails with it as well. My hunting rifles are mainly SS Classic Winchester actions in McMillans, new twist on an old classic maybe?

I always think about Bell when hunting with my 7x57

I was expecting pictures of your nearly naked sweetheart and a story about doing the beast with two backs in the outdoors. What happened?

Well, I have the Swede as well as other romantic notions, such as courtesy, Liberty, and even sometimes chivalry. I revere woodsmoke and camaraderie, birdsong and sunrises. I love being in the elements, but respect - make that fear- the bitter cold. I do like wool and leather but understand the need for the best materials for the worst occasions.

I still carry my M2 lensatic compass. two sources of ignition, and a knife, though it seems I can't get out of sight of my garage. I still get excited when I can hear the river when hiking to it. My old platoon mates are coming over and old Sammy, the Samoan SF NCO, is going to cook a pig in a pit, Island style. The pit is going to be dug in my backyard and the most romantic notion so far is that I can still do it all by myself. Just give me three days.

I was hoping to cook my own wild pig from Texas, felled by my own cast 45-70 bullets but my failing marriage put that off for a year. I won't that stop me from dreaming of a hunt or two in the wild, me trudging along with rifle in hand, stoked with my own handloads.

Note Well: I have no romantic notions of mosquitos, field dressing the game, hauling it out, or crapping in the field.

Sorry about your marriage.

No worries. I still have the 'Fire and the outdoors. I have another romantic notion that I can survive her mood swings and her girlfriend's material influences long enough for reality and maturity to calm her down. The good news is that she knows something is wrong with her and she will see a doctor. In the meantime, I am here for the kids to help them weather their mother's emotional storm. The best news of all is that they like going out to the woods with me. My the eleven year old loved that photo of your daughter on horseback, and she is hoping to start riding this year. After I get the money to fix the settling house and replace the windows.

Best wishes!!!

Does that answer yopur question?

What a worthless bait and switch thread title.

I hope things work out for you Ranger Green!

Thats a fairly realistic looking stunt COCK rooster next to your shotgun Charlie.


Where on earth did you find that?


No way you killed it with a SxS!

Likewise RG.

Tough times, RG. I hope she comes around for ya.





Yep - my favorite tools are the old ones. I'll take new tech when it's needed and makes sense, but I see no reason to ditch the old stuff that works.

You are always welcome to come up and ride our horses!

On the romance of the outdoors, I side with Pugs. Backpacked, or at least hiked much of NM mostly carrying a camera as an archeologist and just for the fun of it. Certainly appreciate the lure of antiquity, learned to fly fish in NM and became hooked. Dry fly fishing (including poppers for pan fish) is the most fun even if it is not the most productive but I am not a purist will fish with any gear. I like the thrill of hunting of getting as close as possible, I guess the romance of pursuit which is why I just don't get the whole LR gig. Some how the latest high tech doesn't have as much allure to me.

I dabble in Taxidermy in my spare time.

The SXS is the only shotgun I own now....SamO bought my O&U a few years ago..

Pretty sure our possessions mirror our aspirations. Getting old and being beautifully functional.


I love damascus barrels, roll crimps, burnt nitro in paper hulls and all my inherited gun from three generations, both sides.

I'm another who prefers the older stuff.
Most of my scattergunning the last few years has been with a 16ga double triggered SxS.
Most of the practice and plinking I do is with a 110+ year old Marlin 25-20WCF and a newer rebored Marlin in 38-55. Both shooting home cast bullets. Been playing with 1959 JC Higgans 51-L (Husky HVA action) 308 lately. Got 180 gr cast bullets up to 2350 with decent accuracy, the .310 groove dia. and worn and oversized throat took some playing to get there.
Both the deer I shot last fall fell to 250-3000s, one a 1953 M99R and the other a 1975 Ruger M77 Tang Safety. They may get the call if I draw the antelope tags I applied for in Wyoming this fall. An early M77 MkII 257 Robert has taken the lions share of my game the last several years though.
Currently only own one handgun, no plastic gun this one though. Again, cast bullets through a 1911 does everything I ask. Have been thinking I could make use of a 45 Colt Blackhawk though.
The AR just doesn't see much use.

Thanks everyone. Noting like a dame to spoil a good time.

It's not all doom and gloom. for example two years ago I had a hunt on the Rio Grande near Marfa lined up. I was bringing some old friends out before they got too old! Well one of them had to cancel last second. He was my last platoon sergeant and had a great career, mostly in the 82ND. Since the trip was going to happen anyway, I told him to give his seat to his kid. Junior was working as a security guard two years earlier when I talked him into joining my Police Department (It's a wonder he still speaks to me).Bubba Ray and I picked up the kid and headed out west.

I was a bit self-indulgent. I made my buds check out northern Arizona and Show Low. I drove down highway 60 through New Mexico. The Quemado group knows this road. I swear it is the most underrated and prettiest drives in the southwest. We met elk hunters while gassing up in Quemado. We laughed at the "Congested Traffic Ahead" sign in Pietown. As we drove through the Datil Mountains I thought Randolph Scot would ride around the next bend. We then cruised across the Plains of San Augustin on our way to Socorro. We doglegged across the I 25, crossed the Rio Grande, and headed out for Lincoln County, of Billy the Kid fame.

Night time would find us in the west Texas town of El Paso. We did not fall in love with anyone that looked like they might be the daughters of Cartel overlords, but did check out the Lucesse boot outlet. Our last partner linked up with us and we headed out to near Marfa. Camping at 4100 feet above sea level on a moonless night in the high desert is unforgettable. The milky way looked like a support beam for the billions of stars. The coyotes serenaded each other and we listened in. You could tell the Mexican ones from their American cousins 'cuz the Mexican ones trilled their "r"s. I fell asleep on the sandy desert floor. As dawn hinted (BEMT to all you grunts) we hiked into position. The coyotes were gone, according to my friends driven off by my snoring. So was the game, but campfires and camaraderie were a consolation. We got skunked on the hunt but the best part was just starting.

A couple of days later we headed back into the big city. Despite the hot showers and warm chow, we missed the field. We split up the next day as Bubba Ray had to fly home to take care of family matters. Mensa Mike drove back to Florida. I talked Junior into meandering trail back home. After one last stop at the boot outlets we headed into New Mexico. Back up to Socorro and highway 60. This time the Datils had a light dusting of snow. As we hit Quemado I talked the kid into heading up to El Morro, Inscription Rock, which I last saw 25 years ago. I knew it was north of here, and so we headed up county roads into the unknown. Junior admitted later that he was nervous when losing his cell phone signal ten minutes out of town and had to trust my dead reckoning and twenty plus year old memories. A half hour later we rounded a bend in the road and nearly ran into a cattle roundup. Four men on horseback were pushing at least thirty cattle towards some pens. We halted until they passed. Junior laughed.

He stopped laughing at Ventana Arch, on the backside of the Acoma reservation. It was 'effin gorgeous. We skirted the malpais and eventually made it to I 40. After two hours of dead reckoning I missed El Morro by about forty miles, but soon we rolled into the parking lot. We got out and walked the trail to the bluff. You could easily see carvings in the stone, from native petroglyphs to Spanish inscriptions left by explorers from the 1600s. And the air! Every breath was scented by juniper and pinon pine. We finished there and swore to return and got back onto the road.We crossed the Zuni reservation and some more malpais on the way to Gallup. We provisioned up at the Walmart there, where Junior wisely bought a road atlas. He took over driving as night fell. I no longer have romantic notions of driving in the night with these old eyes. We drove across the Navajo reservation through the night until I guided him to the Monument Valley. We had to wake the security guard in order to pay for a camping spot. Sadly, a million dollar hotel had been built on the spot where I had last camped there, about fourteen years ago. We made camp in the RV parking lot. A weather front moved though, bring cold winds and clouds, so no light show from the higher elevation of the valley floor.

The morning came and the sun crept under the clouds, who politely broke their pattern and let light onto the valley floor. We broke camp and red dust covered made our way into the hotel lobby and cafeteria. We paid too much for warm food, but the ladies were delighted by Junior and his cowboy boots. There is noting like having an Irish kid with a slight brogue telling the rich tourists about the west, and boot outlets. Even the Navajo smiled. We headed back onto the road, and I took the wheel and steered us north to the San Juan, and the famous Goosenecks therein. we stood where John Wayne threw the whisky bottle into the gorge in "Fort Apache". But I could see more mesas calling me so I drug Junior up the Mokee dugway towards Muley Point. The Mokee dugway is one of those "E ticket" rides. it is a gravel switchback that crabs straight up about sic hundred feet. it is not scary until your wheels lose traction and you are looking straight down. I scared the hell out of the kid. But Muley Point was worth it. It is unbelievable in good weather, and we lucked out. Panoramic can't capture it.

We headed back to Mexican Hat and got fry bread and honey. We drove across the reservation to Marble Canyon, Lee's Ferry, and the incomparable Vermilion Cliffs. We came onto a rollover accident and Junior jumped out with his aid pack and was all business until being relieved by the Arizona Highway patrol. His old man trained him well. We gassed up at Freedonia, at the famous "Guns, Lotto, Ammo, beer" sign. Night fell as I chased the sun so the kid really didn't see much of the Kaibab plateau. I crawled into St. George and we holed up in a cheap hotel.

We choked down breakfast at the only hipster cafe in St. George, which was the only one open that early. The hipster waitress gave us attitude and I immediately going back to San Francisco, where we work. We headed up to Cedar City and then west into the Great Basin. A few hours later my twelve year old Xterra with two hundred and fifteen thousand miles labored over the pass near Wheelers Peak. Snow flurries buffeted us and AI remembered it was eighty degrees in El Paso four days earlier. Just short of Ely we stopped for a quick bite at the Pony Express Cafe. As yo walked though the door you went back about a hundred years. "Old School" Mormons owned the place and their clothing was not costumes. Everyone doted on the Irish Kid until we went back onto the road.

Nearing California people got ruder and more aggressive, a sign we were almost home. There is no joy in telling the last leg of the trip. But there is comfort in reminiscence of the Great road Trip of 2017.

God Bless America!

How old is that horn (the brass one) Bob ?

Great write up!

I got me some of the older guns and even shoot them on occaision...

It would actually cost me less to outfit myself with new glitzy stuff...but hey, I like older gear.

And as for the "romance of the outdoors", from my experience it is uncomfortable, hot, and generally hard work...but it beats the living heck out of being in town.

You didn't take the shortcut. But you have a good eye for the country.

Yep.

Some people like nostalgia, and some people like the best of the best, whatever your definition of that may be.

I like both concepts, and my choice of rifles and gear reflects that. I use a 6.5x284 NORMA every bit as much as a .300 H&H. I wear old fashioned 100% wool while packing my ultra modern 6.5x284.
I'll pack high end modern optics while hunting with my 1917 .22 hi-power.

I guess I just use what I want when I feel like it. It may or may not cost me some animals, but that's OK.

Me too

And I like his odds

I’d rather go into any kind of fight with a guy who thinks we’ll win than the downtrodden.


Back to hunting, i don’t have any romantic notions about trapper Nelson packboards or other [bleep] packs, I take nylon and polypropylene & other synthetics, over down, leather & wool, I love lightweight rifles, great optics, lightweight rain impervious shelters.

Gimme that new chit baby !

The game remains the same, you vs. the elements and your prey. We just have better arrows and I love em.


Tucked under a lil tarp w a hat fire going, yep that’ll always stay with me, no matter how new the rest of the gear is.

I like wool but it seems the weather is never cold enough anymore during deer season to wear it where I hunt. I don’t miss cotton long underwear or wool that itches. The new synthetics and Gore-Tex are much better than the fabrics they replaced. I got to grow up when Connecticut wasn’t a communist enclave and real craftsmen and artists were employed at Winchester, Marlin and Remington . I know this because I knew those men. A close family friend was Art Burns who helped design the .444, and I could have purchased his personal .444 before he passed away but foolishly declined. When a model 12 or 336 Marlin needed attention we knew people (club members) who could repair them. They are mostly gone now and those that are left are pretty old.

We hunted stocked pheasants but you would put up an occasional partridge or woodcock to make it interesting. Those places are gone, turned into subdivisions and strip malls. We even had kids bringing firearms to school on the rifle team and shotguns were routinely kept in our trunks for duck hunting after school. Felonies today.

I live more in the past, the time of my youth. Today is just not where I want to be. It's not a romantic thing, just how I view the world. Today's music, TV, movies, food trends, fashion, just don't interest me.
I like to bird hunt with a 1938 Ithaca 20 ga SxS. I do my hog and deer killing with an old .44 mag Marlin lever rifle.

How old is that horn (the brass one) Bob ?

Neal, it’s not an old one. They still use ones like this in Germany. I would guess less that 20 or 30 years at the most.

Pipes?

As far as looks go, there is not much any nicer to look at than a walnut stocked, blued steel gun, that is put together nicely. A lot of my years in the field have been spent with such guns. But, wet weather and such guns do not go together very good, and I've also spent a lot of time drying them off and cleaning them up after a rainy day hunt.

I'm not into doing that anymore. These days, every rifle that I hunt with, with one exception, is synthetic stocked, and most likely stainless barreled. I also hunt with several guns that are wrapped camo barrel and action, with synthetic stocks. Also, though I do love the nostalgia of the older cartridges, and own several.....45 Colt, 35 Rem, 7X57, 270....I am usually hunting with something more modern.....223, 22-250, 243, and yes, the 6.5 Creedmoor.

I hunt nothing larger than whitetail deer, and have bad shoulders. I don't want or need anything that has any recoil whatsoever. So, I can use a lightweight rifle, and the 243 or the 6.5 CM perfectly fits the bill. Every now and then, for the sake of nostalgia, I'll take out a rifle with a wood stock. Otherwise, that's it.

As far as hunting clothes and other gear goes, what's on the market today is a 100 times better than what I grew up using. I've spent enough freezing my butt off on a deer stand, and thanks to what's out there today, that's a thing of the past.

Hoo boy! The parallels are eerie, right down to the toxic friends. Truth be told I call her my ex and she might as well be but I ain’t actually pulled the plug. The reasons I haven’t concern our son and granddaughter. She could outlive me by 20 years, during which time it’s gonna be just the three of them.

Time for a little Tom T. Hall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk64JluO4CI. Sorry, I don't know how to post the actual video.

Most reenactors ain’t actually shooters, much less hunters, but I gotta say there is something intrinsically relaxing about camping out pre-1840 style.

Only reservation I have is the limits of the old weaponry need to be kept in mind to minimize the chances of non-lethal hits on game.

There's nothing wrong with people being romantics about shooting and using old cartridges, black powder, etc.

Problems sometimes break out when those romantics are uninformed or lie about the capability of those weapons compared to modern equipment.

Words right out of my mouth and excellent, well-reasoned post, Pugs...

Enjoying the outdoors and lack of civilization is the common bond. I enjoy it more when dry and warm and like carrying gear that works under the most adverse conditions. The only items I now use that I was using 10 years ago are a compass and a knife. As I deteriorate I'll take every advantage that I can find.



mike r

Yeah, I know. People saying how the 6.5 Creemoor is a better elk cartridge than a 300 (anything) gets kinda old...

I am definitely not a technology guy, the phone is a struggle.
Myself, I am pretty traditional and unless something is practicle, I don't go for it.
Some look at me as a relic, no camo, digital stuff in the bush and never go outside without a felt hat or straw hat, jeans or wool pants, long sleeve shirt etc.
I am usually horseback out there, have some form of leather leggings, neckerchief and leather gloves.
I prefer leverguns not because of romance but because they work better for me , but use some more modern leverguns and chamberings.
I honour my families history and stick to traditional ways, and leather bags etc help keep some of them working for a living. Don't import any of this stuff from China and Mexican quality is less than I want.
Standing in a spot on the mountain where my Great Grandad did, hunting the same basin, the same way ,tugs at my heart.

Don Currie, who is a Level III Sporting Clays instructor and head coach of the National Sporting Clays Association, says there is no disadvantage using a side by side vs. an over/under. That's because the right way to shoot is to mount from a low gun position, so you can see the bird, and not occlude the bird with the barrels anyway. That said, he usually shoots an O/U, maybe because he gets one free and free shells. Also his side by side is choked full and full with no tubes. But he won the side by side championship with his Fausti.

My definition of "rifle" includes something with a walnut stock and blued metal, though I took a plastic stocked stainless barrel rifle to Alaska, where it seems to rain for three hours every three hours.

I do not appreciate the "tacticool" trend. I don't think AR15s are very good for hunting because of all the sharp pointy things sticking out all over, even though they're fun to shoot and useful for protection.

Let me know when the .308s have a premium bonded bullet that exceeds the BC and SD of the .264 160gr protected point Weldcore. And then let's see how fast they can drive it.

Until you can show me such a bullet, the .308s are just inferior for elk and that's all there is to it

Llame Bob. I wish I were as much a genius as you. You will not get me to be nostalgic about the Crapmore. Hunt with it if you wish, but Shrap and the rest of us who like to shoot old guns will drop things on our hunts with alacrity using all lead bullets much of the time. And we won't waste all that modern powder doing it. Try a Savage 99 in 303 or 300 Savage make about ten kills,and then tell me what you think. Excuse me while I load for my 9X56 Mannlicher. Be Well. Rusty

I was expecting a mixture of coitus and poison ivy when I opened this thread.

Nothing wrong with preferring "old school."

There's nothing wrong with O/U shotguns if your eyes are so arranged!

OK first: Pat...no serious clay shooter would ever use a beat to hell Rem 870 express with a bent barrel....( granted no one can outshoot him with that gun...but still.....) The ONLY proper shotgun to shoot at anything outdoors has two barrels, side by side, and two triggers.

Second I do shoot a .223AI

But if big game is afoot...I use the .275 Rigby......hows that?

The closest I can afford to being romantic in the outdoors is sleeping on the ground. But I love your tastes in the finer things.

Head games....

I need a F-1 car like a hole in the head, but without it, I’d be driving a Model A.

I like old guns, but have a couple plastic stock rifles.

Imagining a huge bull tusker charging out of the TX brush............................. I could imagine that too wielding a 7x57.................

aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh romance. Color me a victim of my imagination.

I think that as we get older, we long for the simpler days of our youth. Therefore, we like to use the type of equipment that we used in that period.

Recently watched a man with a CSMC side-by-side in 16 ga. run a clays course. He seldom missed. Seemed like a serious enough fellow.

A two trigger SXS improves my bird to shell ratio. Might lower the final count of bag at end of day tho.

Jim - Me too. I see "tactical" and go blind.... read/look no farther.

Was in Anchorage Cabelas a week or so ago on way to backpack caribou hunting among the ATV's. Haven't been in there in a year or so, but needed a couple sets of slings and sling mounts and a scope cover. (I have them, somewhere- disappeared during family room renovation- probably in the bottom of a box of wife's stuff....) I bought one sling swivel set and re-rigged an old military leather sling for the wife to carry the .260 Rem 725 with broken extractor. Hey, it took 2 bulls as a single shot! Gotta get that replacement extractor in before moose season!

What a bunch of crap in Cabelas. They had a bunch of military/tactical/combat slings and some other POS stuff. No scope covers worth spit. I ended up hand carrying the 10.3 pound (ithout ammo or sling - I weighed it after!) M98. And here I thought it was just "pushing 10# fully loaded and slung".. It does put 'em into one inch at 300 yards tho.

There is more to this , but not here... Point being Cabelas has gone to hell in their stores. Have to lookonline to see if they still carry the sling and scope covers I want. .

I am SxS guy, particularly this one, because it fits me perfectly. Winter “double” on wild birds:

My dad stepped off the technology train sometime in the 1960's. He refused to use anything new. He never figured out how to operate a TV remote, refused to use a cell phone, and I even had to change the time on his clocks twice a year for him because he wouldn't learn how. Of course he got it honest. His dad got a draft notice during WW-1, but was sent home because as a farmer it was determined he was more helpful to the war effort on the farm. Dad was drafted and served in WW-2. When he came home his dad refused to modernize and expected dad to still plow behind a mule. Dad wanted nothing of it and moved on.

I refuse to be "that guy". I'm not quick to jump on the gimmick band wagon. But if something newer proves better I use it. After watching a wood stock split in a rain I bought a Brown Precision stock in 1983.
I haven't hunted with a wood stocked bolt gun in 36 years. I have no intention of going back. I'm neutral on SS. Some have SS, others are blue, but I want no part of wood on a rifle.

I was late to the 6.5 world, but have come to appreciate the caliber. For those who have been using the 6.5X55 for years I compliment you on being smarter than I and recognizing the round early. If you have a rifle you like then there is little reason to change. But as a new 6.5 owner there is no reason for me go with anything other than the 6.5 CM. Hate it if you must, but it just works.

Tom T RULES; Stone Mtn too:

I share your sentiments about SxS's, blued steel and walnut, and wool. But how about us bowhunters? Longbows and one-piece recurves, turkey feathers on my arrows, and taking the time to sharpen my Zwickey broad heads with a file. And practicing all year for that one shot opportunity that I hope comes my way.

Op describes my challenges with synthetic stocks.

I love shooting stuff as much as the next guy but tags have become excuses for me to wander gorgeous places with a gun... nearly always a blued one with a wood stock...

Still feel pretty good about using a canoe to access some special brook trout spots.
Got a 20 ga OU about 35 years ago that has delivered consistent magic on pheasant and grouse over the decades, walnut & blued steel.
Used a Savage 1899 in 300 Savage, with a couple new fangled Nosler Partitions, to take a bull moose last fall, plus a whitetail buck. More walnut & blued steel.
Still dangerous with a 40 year old S&W mod 19, sports a pair of Herrett grips.........made out of walnut, to go with the blued steel.
My grandsons have been using my near 50 year old Rem 700 in 270 Win over several recent seasons. It's on its 4th stock and 2nd barrel. Yet more walnut and blued steel.

Speaking of handguns, I much prefer the Colt Single Action Army model of 18 and 73 except for concealed carry. And in caliber .45 Long Colt.

I could care less about the latest 9mm or AR15 clone that the gun rags have an orgasm about because the maker bought some advertising.

As for the 6.5 Creedmoor, Hmmmph. I can't think of a single thing it can do, in a real hunting situation, that some other cartridge, 50 years older, can't do better. All it is is a 6.5-06 Short, with a sexier name.

I luv my Quakies @ 9K'

oh my........did you mention the 223AI ?

recent dog slayin' mission

handguns ?

didn't have an FN 40

Romance notions and the outdoors! My first thought was the girlfriend On the tailgate ...well forget that. Yep I hunt with an 06 and SxS Ithaca most of the time. Wouldn't call it romance, just what fits best.

Romance, I am incurable.

I don't own a single deer rifle that was designed in the 20th century. Mausers, Savage Model 99's and a Hawkins front stuffer. I'm just not a big fan of the newer stuff.