77 years ago today, they ceased to exist... I asked about a dozen sailors, chiefs and officers here on base what was today and NOT ONE had a clue.....

Well that is kind of a tough one. I have read many WWII books, and a few on Midway, yet if somebody asked what day it was, that would not have popped into mind.

Had you asked when the Battle of Midway took place, I could tell you.

A quick fly over of the island on the way back to the boat.

I bet my father would have known the answer. (WWII Navy, though not involved in that action.)

And very cool that Fighting 31 was on Enterprise for Midway.

Something the USAF does better than the Navy is establish and maintain their squadron lineage.

I asked the bridge watch on the Vancouver in 1983 to let me know when we passed through the Surigao Straits. They asked why and I replied because of the battle here in 1944. They had no f*******n idea what i was talking about..




....and a hand salute to Wade McClusky.

Somebody asked me years ago if I knew the names of the carriers downed at Midway..I did, of course.

My wife looked at me ( not the first time...) like "Why in the hell would you know that...?"

One of my favorite war movies of all time! And a great moment in history, a great gathering of “what if’s”!

What an amazing day: four enemy carriers sunk. A few minutes before the first carrier went down, by any measure the US was losing that battle. The stubborn continued attack by US pilots despite losing whole units won the day, and turned the war. Gutsy men in those planes.

And by dive bomber no less! Some damn brave men.

The movie The Final Countdown has ingrained in me the names of the Japanese carriers (at Pearl Harbor).

A true testament to damage control.

My buddy is an E7 in the M-div on subs.

I asked him what the first job they learned how to do?

Fight fire he said.

There's NOBODY that can touch is in damage control and it that regard, the japs were notoriously bad. Striking when you consider the quality of their naval aviation had no equal at the time..

That was a cool “what-if” movie. I can still hear James Farantino running down the list!!

Because you are a student of history.

Our country could use a lot more of that..

Many planes...

Does anyone how many aircraft we lost?

Yes, Jimmy Thatch and Butch O'Hare were Tomcatters and made the most of the Wildcat.

At one point I was the PAO and refined our squadron history to really include all the events and aircraft throughout the squadron's history. 2nd oldest fighter squadron in the Navy. VF-14 Tophatters being the oldest.

japs:
four carriers 322 aircraft
USN:
One carrier, 147 aircraft.

When the movie Midway first came out, I went to see it, and thought it was OK. Then I went to see it again with a friend who was a graduate of Annapolis, and knew the battle in detail. Whole different experience.

Determination, bravery, some dang fine strategy, and a big helping of good luck changed the course of the war in the Pacific.

I'm not sure, but suspect we would have been happy to just break even and hold onto the island. Breaking the back of the IJN had to be success beyond expectations.

The Guadalcanal campaign would have been very different if the Japanese had a few more carriers and aircrews to use.

That would be a good Jeopardy question.

I've thought that identifying the names of the Japanese carriers would be a good question. "What were..."?

On one show a question was "On what day of the week did the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor"? Not a single contestant knew it was Sunday. Hell, that was a major part of the Japanese strategy, catching the Americans off guard on a day of rest.

Ignorance of history abounds.

Paul

Unit history questions were always part of the E5 and E6 boards.
We would have BN and BDE formations and runs on historic dates everywhere I got stationed.


Lots of MI signals deception in the battle of midday
From the water supply transmissions
To false radio traffic to the Yorktown " still in the coral sea area"
That stuff allowed us to prestage on the sunsabytches big time.

Jap admiral trying to decide and squeeze time to the minute rearming, refueling landing and launching. Really worked to our benefit.

Biggest turning point in the Pacific naval war!

There would not have bee a Guadalcanal campaign, at least not then had we lost at Midway. Be that as it may, they still kicked our ass at Savo Island and had they pressed their attack could have probably won.

Thanks, JorgeI, as a previous post stated we were getting our asses handed to us until that first carrier was hit. Gutsy bunch of pilots we had.

We were lucky. LCDR Wade McCluskey on a hunch turned NW and at the limit of his fuel, found the carriers in the process of re-configuring their ordnance loads and their fighter coverage had been "pulled down" chasing (and destroying) Torpedo Bombing Squadron 8 . A young LT, name Dick Best, scored the first hit...

Sad, that...


Yep - I read about that in the book "The Big E".. I must have read that book about a hundred times..

And, two years ago, at Arlington, I was waiting for a shuttle bus and turned around on the bench and saw this:




IMHO one of the best Admirals in the war...

And some 300-odd of Japan's finest naval combat pilots. Irreplaceable.

Very neat. If you want to read the BEST book on the battle, get "Shattered Sword"... paperback on Amazon. incredible read..

Those Jap ship names sounded familiar. Used to play WWII board games as a kid.



Blitzkrieg was a good one too . . . Irwin Rommel - the Desert Fox

Ordered - and on the way.. Thanks jorge....

Actually, most of the aviators survived, it was the support element, crew chiefs, mechanics, etc who suffered terrible casualties when their ships went up like roman candles.

If you don't like it, send me the bill!

Thanks for the reminder Jorge. Important day that should be remembered.

Yes, that is my thought, it would have setback our timetable for the offensive and made the war much longer. It’s amazing that the Japanese were so timid with their Guadalcanal strategy, they could have won it early by being bold. Victory disease I guess.

Men of true grit, conviction, and determination..............The Greatest Generation.

Simply put, Badasses.

In the big scheme of things, Japan lost the war when the first bomb (or torpedo) came off the rails on December 7th...

You think that’s bad?

I was in a deli the other day and not a single kid knew who Shadrach, Meshach or Abendego were.

Are you going to force me to look that up? No way I was going to ask about the names, just what happened on 04 June, 1942...

An English translation of the Japanese carrier names:

From the Combined Fleet web page.

Hosho class
Hosho: "How a phoenix dives", implies power

Kaga class
Kaga: "Increased Joy", a province name (Kaga was originally laid down as a battleship)

Akagi class
Akagi: "Red Castle", a volcano in the Kanto area (Akagi was originally laid down as a battlecruiser)

Ryujo class
Ryujo: "Such as a dragon builds", "Sacred Dragon"

Soryu class
Soryu: "Blue-gray dragon"
Hiryu: "Dragon Flying in Heaven"

Zuiho class
Zuiho: "Lucky or Auspicious Phoenix"
Shoho: "Luckbringing Phoenix"

Ryuho class
Ryuho: "Dragon and Phoenix"

Shokaku class
Shokaku: "Crane Flying in Heaven" (also "Happy Crane")
Zuikaku: "Lucky or Fortunate or Auspicious Crane"

Hiyo class
Hiyo: "A Falcon Flying Away"
Junyo: "Wandering Falcon"

Taiho class
Taiho: "Great or Greater Phoenix"

Shinano class
Shinano: A province, containing Nagano City (Shinano was originally laid down as a battleship); also the longest river in Japan

Unryu class
Unryu: "Cloud of a Heaven-flying dragon", "Dragon in Clouds"
Amagi: "Heaven castle," a volcano
Katsuragi "Katsura Castle," a mountain

Chitose class
Chitose: "1000 Years," or, "Long Life", a city
Chiyoda: "That which will live 1000 years or 1000 generations", "Like the Fields" (also the name of the Imperial palace in Tokyo)

Taiyo class
Taiyo: "Greater falcon"
Unyo: "Cloud falcon"
Chuyo "High Seas Falcon"

Kaiyo class
Kaiyo "Sea falcon"

Shinyo class
Shinyo: "Condor"

Mizuho class
Mizuho: Juicy rice ears

Nisshin class
Nisshin: Daily fort patrol

It’s just an old Jew story.

Back to this sociological experiment though...

I didn’t understand you said the DATE. That is pathetic.

Even I know that one.

And I’m no history buff by any stretch.

I read it last week, very very good book! The authors make it seem they are speaking to you!

Very, pathetic. And even Pearl Harbor and D-Day are iffy.

New policy:

Every time someone can’t answer correctly there will be a follow up question.

“Well then, can you tell me the capitol of Thailand?”

IMHO that's due to our esteemed 'public education system' that refuses to teach any real history any longer...

democrat-matriarchy....

I think stuff like that should be engrained at basic. That’s a cultural thing the Navy should be instilling.

Yes....I can......as I turn to the side.....

Nope.

Be a man Jim.

Have you read the Bible my son?

Can you read?

Can try a block or is it hands behind my back?

The month of June was unkind to the Axis. Midway was the end for Japan, though it took them awhile to realize that.

Apparently there is an new movie about the battle coming out later this year. Woody Harrelson as Nimitz...Really?

Why not the capital of Kiana fasa?

Of course I have. I just told the fugkin story!

This past several months have had me really looking at this battle. Here are some USN reports on interrogations of Japanese survivors of the battle. I found it interesting.

How did it all happen

Some good info on order of what, and number of Japanese pilots lost etc...

One often overlooked fact of this battle is that it is the first time the Thach weave was used by F4 pilots and first time IJN fighters got their asses handed to them in dogfights. But it wasn't only that-

Here is some recounting of the air fight.
Wildcat vs Zero....and another account of the Battle.

Enjoy.

Truth!!

Years ago, can't remember exactly how long but both kids were in elementary or middle school, on Dec 7th I asked them what happened on that day in history.... neither one knew it. So I filled them in and I try to teach them a little here and there as to our nations history seeing as how our education system is obviously failing.

King Kong isn't it?

Well, it is better than the upchucking reflex I had from seeing Arec Barrwin as Doolittle!

regarding salvo, one of my experiences. some years ago i had a book laying on my office desk on the battle of salvo island. older gentleman came in to do some business, and saw the book, asked me if i was reading it, yes, and proceded to cry. I asked him what the matter was. He was on that destroyer cut in half by the jap cruiser at night. He and some others floated around just hundreds of yards from the canal, afraid to put ashore due to japanese troops. ships would not stop due to fear of japanest artillery. after about a week, they finally rowed ashore after dark and made in to american postitions. It's something to read in a book, then run into a man that was in the actual engagement.
I was cleaning up an estate just recently, ran into a photo of a guy's navy boot camp graduation. He was on the U.S.S. stennis, a dd destroyer that participated in the battle of the sargasso sea, off the phillipines if i spelled it correctly. Last and biggest battleship confrontation where the U.S. had some atvantage having some radar. As i read it, a japanese battleship was bracketed on the first salvo at over 12miles at night.
the Stennis was envolved in that confrontation. His widow had given me his navy dogtags some years ago. At one time i had client that were in the air over okinawa, in the marines, that hit the beach, and in the navy at okinawa. One regret is i should have put them together and bought them a communal lunch.

At the WWII Memorial in D.C.

and if you want something wierd, as i was typing this my cellphone went off indicating an email i just got, hawking a book on the battle of midway. go figure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd8_vO5zrjo

well worth watching

Shokaku and Zuikaku were not at Midway because of the Coral Sea battle. Those two got there's later in the war. If six carriers had been present history would most likely be much different. A lot of history swings on single critical points. Breaking Japanese code, the fake message about the water shortage, the sub contact creating the trail McClusky followed back to the carriers, the sacrifice of the torpedo planes, Nagumos indecision about which target to rearm for, the delay of the Jap scout plane launches, etc., each little point critical to the outcome.

So after running out of ways to name a carrier after a falcon or a Phoenix their next option is "juicy rice ears"? No wonder we kicked their ass.

I'm always amazed at history and the way major battles and even the results of wars have turned on seeming minor events.

Midway when a Destroyer was sent to look for a American sub and was spotted trying to return to the fleet.

Gettysburg, when a Officer decided his unit had retreated far enough that day and he liked the ground he was standing on.

Time after time.

Had to look that up. Ingenious.

Breaking the Japanese code is what won the battle of Midway. Our carriers were out to sea waiting on the attack. If they had been in Pearl Harbor Midway would have fallen.

Some pretty dark days in early 1942. Other than Doolitles raid, the folks on the home front had little to cheer about. Not only did our boys break the back of the Japanese Imperial Navy that day, but they gave America hope and the confidence that we're going to win this thing. Service branches like the Marines in the Pacific Islands, Army starting in North Africa, Sicily, and crossing the channel into Normandy, the Army Air Corps in Europe, the Navy on the seven seas, along with American civilian might certainly combined to the war.

But on that June day in 1942, at great sacrifice, the tide was turned. And that was all we needed. God Bless the U.S. Navy and her brave men.

Thank you for the recommendation, I also ordered it

This has been a great thread.

Thanks for the education.

True. All the cards fell into place, and at the right time too, for us to prevail like we did. We were very fortunate, because at that stage in the war, we were still very short on carriers, and the odds were pretty much on the side of the Japs.

I was born in 1950, so when I was growing up, it wasn't all that many years after WW2. I can still remember people talking about where they were, and what they were doing when they heard about Pearl Harbor.

The only thing we've had to compare it to since was 9/11, and even though that was a very tragic event, I don't think it left the impression on people like Pearl Harbor did of that generation.

Yes, i agree, I meant the Japanese could have won at Guadalcanal by being more aggressive early. If Mikawa has turned against the transports he could have wreaked havoc, If they had sortied a larger group of battleships for the early night battles, I guess they had trouble fueling them though. Hindsight.

Me too

g5m recently posted a good video giving the events at Midway from the Japanese perspective, prior to that I had not appreciated the role the continuous, if unsuccessful, American attacks by land-based aircraft played in stalling the Japanese attack.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/13838850/Searchpage/1/Main/935813/Words/%2BJapanese/Search/true/the-battle-of-midway-from-the-japanese-perspective#Post13838850

9-11 did not destroy half of the US Navy.

Midway may have turned out differently if Shokaku had not been damaged at Coral Sea and therefore unavailble at Midway.

Gents, if this topic interests you read Craig L. Symonds
World War II at Sea: A Global History.

Former Professor at Annapolis IIRC.

GREAT read.

Enjoyable thread. Howie Carr on NewsMax today mentioned the date and its significance on his show and outlined briefly a lot of what you all said today. Only talking head I've heard to mention it today.

[
9-11 did not destroy half of the US Navy.[/quote
Nor did the attack on Pearl Harbor. We lost a bunch of near antique battleships but not one of the Queens of naval battle for WWII. The battle wagons that got raised and used for shore bombardment were too slow and too fuel inefficient for the carrier war in the pacific.

Japan would not have won the war no matter what the outcome of Midway or Guadalcanal. It might have taken longer, but the outcome in the end would be the same. The Japanese ran out of oil, raw materials and ideas. their industrial output was a fraction of America's. Their population was much smaller. The nuclear bomb was going to happen regardless.

Midway...
That was a real thing.
My Uncle was in all that.
They buried him at Arlington last summer.
He was the last one.
Dad and 5 uncle's fought down there. All dead.
America's glory lay in the dust. Look at what we have become.

Those brave men flew planes that were no match for the enemy but they did it anyway. They fought as best they could and held them until the carriers could finish them off. We owe them a debt of gratitude.

True statement.

I read Fuchida's account, and it read like a "I told you so!" Monday morning quarterback talking head. I was particularly fascinated by the description of IJN carrier deck operations, as well as damage control (or lack thereof).

Another series of (unrelated to Midway specifically) books worth reading are Hornfischer's series of books, as well as those by Ian Toll (especially Six Frigates).

I can vouch for both authors. I'm waiting for Toll's third and concluding book on the Pacific war. Hornfischer's Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors is also superb.

Jorge. Thanks for posting.

Been thinking of these brave airmen all day.

The Marines who flew off of Midway in their Navy hand me down Buffalo fighters, and were cut down in droves.

The men of the torpedo squadrons, VT8, VT6, and VT5 who flew their obsolete Devestators to slaughter.

Men like John Waldron, the commander of VT8 who took his squadron to where he knew the Japanese would be contrary to orders from the airgroup commander, telling him "to hell with you" over the radio. He found the Japanese and died for his effort, while the airgroup commander Stanhope Ring flew to an empty ocean.

Hard to think of people who embody the word DUTY to country more than those who served and so many who died on this date 77 years ago. Thank you for your sacrifice.

Great thread!!!

I met Mitsuo Fuchida in the 1950's. Obviously a very interesting man and memorable for a kid.

As to the movie.

There is a Battle of Midway Roundtable,
www.midway42.org

an internet group that has been around for 22 years and includes all of the authors of the books mentioned, and participation with actual participants of the battle, including a few who are still with us.

The movie crew actively sought out experts from this forum to consult on aspects of the movie, and mock ups of the planes. The movie is due out in November 2019, for Veterans Day.

It will be a product of Hollywood, and a general production feature movie rather than a documentary, take it as such.

Fingers crossed that it will honor their memories true to form. At the very least, someone is remembering what they have done and expended the effort to obtain the resources to recognize their extroadary sacrifice and make a feature movie about them.

I know I will be shelling out the money to see it in the theater, and will try to overlook any warts that might be present, and hope that it will be enough of a hit that it will inspire a new generation to remember the Heroes Of Midway.

thrown in the fire but they never got burned!

However, IIRC, we lost more folks on 9/11 -than at Pearl.
Many don't realize this. That's sad!