Anyone ever go through the process? Not so easy to do.

Which two churches are merging?

It was a PITA when all Lutheran wanted to. But the MS stayed out. IIRC the LCA and ALC merged but MS could not agree to all theology. Which is not wrong, just how it went.

Churches are much to political if thats the right word....

This thing is pretty simple, Christianity. But people have to complicate it will all kinds of nuances.

You are spot on rost. Man kind make everything hard.

Wabigoon,

I work with churches all day, everyday. Nothing about churches is easy.

What are you trying to accomplish with the merger? What difficulties are you running into?

I am very interested in your experience!

Thank You!

They are closing quite a few rural UMCs here in N.C. The district closes them without negotiation and directs the members to the UMC that the DISTRICT favors. It looks to be backfiring on them, as it should. Lots of corruption and behind the scenes strategy. These little churches get shot clean out the saddle before they know anything is going on. The members tend to buck the system and go the opposite direction, from the direction of the district. It isn’t a pretty thing to watch happen. This is playing out as we speak in our community.

Richard, are you talking two different denominations merging or two churches of the same denomination? The church that a friend's mother attends merged with another of the same denomination. They built (overbuilt - "You always wish you had built bigger the first time!"} a new church upon which they are unable to keep up the mortgage.

Never been through a merger, been through a split though, no fun whatsoever.

Who was right?

Honest question from one who really has no opinion on the matter, and got hammered watching the debate tonight.

Why must one go to church to worship God/Christ/Holy trinity/ghost or whatever? I mean y'all can read I assume, why does someone gotta read it to you at an appointed time on Sunday? I miss the rules that were handed out or something?

OK, I am done stirring chit up. I'll leave this out there: On the day of rest, I'm frigging resting. I want to worship, I'll be good and rested when I wake up. Discuss amongst yourselves. I'm not disparaging any religion. Honest questions, from someone who had to go to early Sunday service, simply because it was shorter. And later found out my parents did not truly believe.

Impossible to answer.

Realistically, differences of opinion are inevitable and often legitimate, I just wish people would be honest and above board about it all. (And that probably isn't realistic)

Sounds like he’s talking about the Methodist decisions this year and split from UMC. Some churches are finding out they don’t own their property, etc. it’s held by them for the interest of the UMC. I’m fairly active in local UMC but have been blessed with some abilities to personally support Youth Trips, etc. so without being an official member get to cast aspersions from the couch.

I understand that they sided with their growing community on key issues. I understand they don’t want to split the larger church on ideological grounds if that’s the right phrase. One might argue they don’t want to lose 50% of their circle of influence. I don’t support the parent structure pulling the “We own your physical property” card.

It’s not a popular theory here but I’m of the stance if I can’t reach a group and others can I don’t judge. I’ve been the Recipient of Grace way beyond what I deserve and don’t deny anyone else the same. It’s not my place to rank sin and I’ve no right to do so. It’s all one root sin anyway. I like what others have said. We try to over complicate the simple. Or as I’ve recently heard Rationalize = Rational lies of which I’m extremely guilty.

Of course, ideology is probably a first world problem. With the benefit of multiple viewpoints based on experience and somewhat fortunate, or at least a semi-stabile Financial situation, I don’t feel I am experienced enough in the hardships to say what the path looks like. I hope your part is illuminated but regardless of how it plays out remember one thing.

Your church is the people and not the place. If your not focused on making Disciples that make Disciples your potentially just part of a social club. Easy to talk to, harder to hold that standard in a non-judge mental, empathetic way.

Apologies in advance if I screw up this explanation. You ever notice when your around certain people your habits and speech reflects them? Could be in just a minor, shared experiences kind of way. You surround yourself with those who share an interest or passion. Hunting clubs, shooting, etc. The “Word” is a map and a mirror not a lens. As soon as some realize that it could reverse the current course. It’s an impossible standard that shows the need for a Savior. You don’t attend church, support charities, etc. for others. You do it as a reflection and in response to the grace you’ve received. It’s a response to a gift, not a fearful obligation. I hope I’ve done some justice to the explanation but fear I haven’t. I tend to over communicate and yet not explain.

Put shorter and directly, if your not offended by anything you read in the Bible you might be worshiping your own ideals and not God’s scripture.

Great question, considering that you are drunk and have mental trauma from the debate. Corporate worship, i.e., going to church, is one part of living a Christ centered life. Your daily devotions and prayer life will be more beneficial than 90 minutes at a convenient time once a week. That must have been very painful to find out your parents don't believe. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

For a good many years, we attended a UMC church, even though I am Baptist and never joined the Methodist church. My wife was raised a Methodist, and besides, it's not your denomination that will get you into Heaven. One woman tried to run the church, partly because that's how she was, and partly because her ancestors had donated the land on which the church was built.

For years, the church was on a circuit, sharing a pastor with another church. This is a Methodist thing, and has both it's good points and bad ones. Anyway, as church attendance kept dropping, the UMC officials suggested the 2 churches merge, but both churches rejected it. The church we attended was in very good financial shape, with a lot of money in the bank, and a very nice building and other property, while the other church was not in either good financial condition, nor had a nice building.

There was a lot of suspicion on the part of members that the UMC was trying do something in the hopes that one or both of the churches would close, and they could then get the money that would be there as a result. The 2 churches then voted to go their separate ways, and do their own thing. The church we were attending is still shrinking in attendance, while the other is growing. We left that church because of the turmoil and the way certain members were acting, and then after seeing the direction the UMC appears to be heading, we are attending the Southern Baptist church that I have been a member of all my life.

I feel somewhat sorry for the small churches, as they have a tough row to hoe. Church attendance is dropping, and the small ones are hit the hardest. The UMC has not helped matters any by the way they're acting, with what appears to be a split coming at some point in time. The smaller rural churches are the ones who are usually the most conservative, and are most likely the ones in the worst financial condition, and therefore, will probably be the hardest hit. Most of the time, people attend a particular church because they feel in tune with the way the other people in that church feel, both in a spiritual sense, and in a sense of community. I would think it would be very difficult to merge 2 churches into one, and to believe everything would go smoothly. But, it might be practical to do so, as far as keeping the doors of a local church open. I guess the hard part would be in deciding which one closed it's doors, and which one remained open.

I hope things work out well for your church Wabigoon.

After living through a church kicking 3 pastors out and a new church forming from that episode I’d say run far away; if it’s a couple of church congregations there will likely be a lot of settling pains. If denominations, I’d suggest going the route that preserves a proper view of justification, law and gospel. Either way there will be a lot of growing pains and hurt feelings within the groups involved.

Sadly, our little Reformed Church of America congregation shut down a couple years ago. A poor decision by the pastor regarding one of our members lead to the church's demise. My wife and I have been looking for a church with the same belief structure we have, and have yet to find a good match. I hate church shopping. These break ups and mergers are never easy.

A question; Do the churches, the real estate, belong to the community or do the belong to the the state national organization?

Pete, at our meeting last night, it was explained to us by the district superintend and this is Iowa, and it may be different in different states with the United Methodist church, real-estate, and other assets are "held in trust" by the local church. Held in trust but owned by the head body.

My bank had what was billed as a “merger of equals” several years ago. The institution is been a part of was clearly making an acquisition in spite of the linguistic niceties. Everyone knew that; our signs went on all the offices, our HQ became THE HQ, and all senior posts were quickly filled by members of our culture.

I tend to believe all “mergers” go this way; one group needs the “union” most and has to acquiesce, sacrificing their culture in order to survive. Not sure it’s good or bad (I think it’s probably both) but it is what it is.

I’ve never been through an ecclesiastical merger but can’t imagine it’d be fun. Likely one heck of a growth experience tho. A lot of sacred cows that need slaughtered in my life, and heaven knows I’ve grown through learning to accept the sacred cows of others.

Church is all about a community in the process of being redeemed and transformed into the likeness of One who took up a cross upon which those who would benefit from His sacrifice hung Him up to die. That’s what we sign up for so, like it or not I get to sing songs printed in the bulletin rather than Psalms from the denominational “red book” under my seat.

High class problems but annoying as hell !

Mainline denominations are committing suicide and the grassroots supporters/members are paying the price. ‘Tis a genuine shame.

The Methodist church we attend is shrinking also, no young people join.

My suspicion is the main church organizations is finding the paying of current and retired clergy salaries and retirement money. Closing churches and selling that real estate off to get the money is the game plan.. Remember religion is a business.

That's not just a Methodist problem. The one we were attending had several young couples that were very involved in the church, but the old people, in particular one old biddy, resented them having any say-so as to what went on in the church. She wanted the final word, and the young folks finally left.

That is one of the biggest problems I have with the Methodist church. The property that the local church has acquired should not end up in the hands of the international body.

This is the case here in N.C. It is how they get away with closing churches so easily. Church cemeteries cause them a bit of aggravation, both they are learning to get around that. The District does what it wants to do. They find a preacher and congregation members that are down with the cause, and they execute their plan. The deal is already done before the rank and file members know what’s going on. It leaves many live long members crushed. Like I said earlier.....it ain’t pretty to watch.

These institutional structures have a tendency to become entities which serve only themselves & the interests of the bureaucrats who run them who over time have decreasing connection to the congregants in the pews.

Free Methodism has managed to hold closer to the Bible and has avoided the amazing shrinkage of the mainline. Coincidence? No way!

That is a legal question. It would seem that it would depend on how the title is written. The county court house can answer that. If title is held by the local body they should be able to keep the property.

More than likely the state or national group helped fund the startup and had title to the property. You should check.

Denominations, to include the Catholic church, are the bain of Christianity. Jesus left this earth with one Church and He's coming back for one Church, not for foolish people wanting to chose what to believe so their comfort levels are not exceeded.

So if a church (of any kind) decides to go out of business and sell all their assets who gets the money?

corporate worship is a way to keep an eye on folks, to press onward. To be able to say where were you last week. You didn't give us enough money. You need to act better, often while someone in upper management screws someone else.. literally or figuratively.

Book says where 2 or more gather. Until my wife dies or I die, I figure we are ok.

And I"m all ok with Congregational too, I just don't want to really ever be tied down to one place and all the time again, its getting in a rut that seems to eventually do the most damage

If I were methodist, the biggest problem I'd have is the anti gun stance.

It depends on the church and who they are affiliated with. With many it would revert back to the headquarters of the denomination.

If it's an unaffiliated church, likely back to those who attended or those who initially put the money up to start it. Most would have a document that would define what was to happen.

Which is one of the reasons we left the Methodists, along with them wanting to promote the queer agenda.

Corporate worship is about meeting together and making community around a shared ideal who, in the Christian Church, is Christ.

Toward that end I need people to keep an eye on me. My heart is prone to wander from the God I claim and therefore regular check-ins for purposes of reorientation are a must.

Doing my own thing on a Sunday morning, for me, is tantamount to making myself the ideal. I’ve been there, done that, got the friggin t-shirt and don’t want any part of that. Idolatry is my pre-programmed “go to” and proves harmful for me and those around me. God is calling for Himself a redeemed community as such. Putting up with all this BS is part of the deal cuz we’re all full of it... and yet He has called us. That’s grace.

Others’ mileage may vary, but I had to toss in my .02 to provide a counter position to the typical individualistic drivel typical of these threads.

The property issue lays the foundation (no pun intended) for the kind of centralized power that allows the firearm one to stand.

SOME of the Methodists want to promote the queer agenda. No support for that in my neck of the woods. It is possibly why they are purging the most rural, small churches. Get the conservative vote out of the room.

People are mostly social by nature. Churches used to have a larger role filling a social role in their community. With the advent of social media, Facebook and forums such as this are performing this task of social interaction. It's easier to stare at your screen than interact in person.

I'll go along with that .

It seems that all denominations are willing to compromise scripture. What I look to start happening if it hasn't already started are for those people in these denominations who aren't willing to compromise to start independent groups with members of the other denominations who feel the same way. It's been discussed at our church.

A group of local UMC churches did that in my neck of the woods. The old buildings located in rural, small villages were costing a fortune to maintain. Each one may have had 20 or so congregants, one of them had a dozen. The goal was to sell them all and build one large modern church.

One church bucked and has stayed open with a 1/4 pastor. They have a Thrift Shop and a Pre School Program that keeps them a float. They might only have 20 congregants or less in a large brick church.

Out the remaining churches only one church has sold, one is being used and I don't know the status of the other two. I think they were vacated and on the market.

Dan

I look at church on Sunday as a sort of family reunion with my brothers and sisters, we all have the same Father. Even if crazy Uncle Joe may be a PITA family reunions are by and large joyful and uplifting. There's more to it than that but that much seems applicable to all Christian denominations.

As for the property I suppose it depends on the church constitution. All churches should have a founding document that addresses this. Don't know but suspect it's necessary for tax exempt status.

You know, I had not thought of it that way but I believe you are right. Some folks do need the unity, the watchful eye etc... we are all driven differently.

Me, If I dont' get to a church, its ok, I do my best to live it every day. I don't have much doubt, but there is always some, but being out in nature every day in my work, you see the works all around you. And in my spare time I"m constantly talking to others, and helping those that need help and so I'm gonna say we do just fine without.

But as you noted, YMMV, and I often forget that.

If all churches always were just about helping others, speaking and spreading the word and not getting panties in a wad over minor technical issues, then it would definitely be a better thing.

Of course bottom line, I'm somewhat anti people to start with, while I deal with folks every day, and smile, and enjoy that, I'm never unhappy to get home, where I don't have to see anyone else etc... social is not my ticket for sure.

Interesting take on the reunion thing. Cousins of mine and my wife family somewhat think the same... we make sure we see and do with the ones we get along with, the others, if I don't see them all year long, then the need to see them once a year or such just is not there, as it should not be IMHO

I, and we hope, and pray it works well. Merging is the only hope other than just shutting down, and going elsewhere.

Prayers for you in this mission, from N.C. Clearly your situation is much different that we are experiencing in our area.

The key to a churches survival is ownership of the property. With respect to church bldgs, grounds, etc. I believe in most cases the UMC owns the property. Thus they can dictate when property is no longer of use to the UMC as a denomination. Years ago I and some others saw the liberal direction the UMC was taking, and we left the church to form another denomination. Since the UMC owned the UMC church we attended, we had no choice but to walk away, gather funds, and buy/build our own church, which we did. I have known of denominations (or associations as some are structured) who had several small churches in a geographical area which were struggling. In every case, if the denomination owned the property, they dictated a merger. If they didn't own the property, the people of the church could decide whether they wanted to remain with the denomination or go off own their own. The UMC is in a struggle for its life now. They recently voted (as a denomination) during their annual conference to reject homosexual ordination, gay marriage, and a few more. However, the vote was very close and there is a significant movement within the UMC which favors liberalizing the UMC and allowing gay pastors, homosexual/lesbian marriages, etc. This opposition has pledged to get the votes needed to bring about this liberal agenda, and I believe they will be successful. Once this happens, the UMC as a denomination will split. Of this there is no doubt as a significant part of the UMC is in Africa, and not one African church is pro gay anything. They have already said they will leave the denomination if the pro gay agenda is approved. Here at home, there are now gay/lesbian pastors in the UMC, and some UMC churches have already held gay marriages. I expect the trend to only worsen. I suggest anyone who has an interest in the UMC google this recent conference.