Done right, yes:

Airsoft IPSC looks fun. The “real” IPSC is an expensive hobby.
It’s such a “game” that full house guns don’t even make sense.

I know diaper boy liked his Airsoft. :shudder:

Lots of people shoot USPSA with guns that are pretty much stock, primarily in the Production division. IPSC is the international version of the sport and is somewhat different. IDPA is almost completely stock guns.

I know some very good USPSA and IDPA shooters who practice with Airsoft guns.

Ban it.

It was IPSC in the day and always will be. Why the USPSA thing started I don’t know. There were 2 classes when I first started and now a pile. I Don’t Practice Anymore is too commando for my tastes.

10 round 22 LR pistol games is where it shoulda gone in my opinion.

$5,000 comp guns are nuts.

You hungover?😂

A bit!

That maybe he just forgot the sarcasm font.

Some people do get carried away with equipment. But if they enjoy it and can afford to do so, who cares? I take a different approach and shoot a stock Glock 34.

That’s one way to look at it, but the equipment race always sucked, especially in the 90’s. Granted that was ages ago. I had a buddy shooting a 17L in Major 9. And that’s when the power factor was 175.

Shooter ready....standby....(Duck!)

The rim height in a park is the same as the NBA. Balls the same too. For perspective.

The “joke” was “no matter how fast you think you’re shooting, you still ain’t shooting Open”

But yeah, you’ve got the right idea. G34 and a 5 gallon bucket of ammo and forget the rest.

Major 9 in a Glock at 175 power factor sounds a little scary to me. I have no interest in that. I just want to have some fun and keep my skills sharp with something fairly similar to my carry gun.

You ain’t kidding....

IPSC got crazy there for awhile. I remember when Jerry Barnhart won the Nationals with an optic and everyone went ape schit looking for Aimpoints. My buddy developed the C-More and you know the rest of that story. From what I’ve seen the stages get quite long and complicated these days.

I’ve been in and out of it several times and would love to play again with a set up like yours, but I’ve got busy kids these days.

When I get the bug I mess with steel plates and a 22LR top end on my 1911. Couple hundred rounds and ithe bug goes away.

Question , will paintballers have the nerve and required judgement in a real world showdown with real bullets flying their way?

those two alleged paintballer skilled perps in Canada didn't seem ready and willing for a gunfight.

Cover tactics maybe, shooting....doubtful.

Their toys don't accurately simulate real weapons in feel or weight.
which is important for weapons handling.

although SIMs is only available to military, LE and accredited training providers,

another co. .UTM , do now make available a civilian version product called CTA
which you feed into your converted AR.

Watch the video.

I have already, video says the little jap shoots better than most of LE & Mil guys,,
I guess that means its well time he explored his options and sent applications to all the gov contract
private security providers in the middle east and Afghanistan.

I wonder how many airsoft trained credential operatives they have on the books, any idea?

unfortunately the video does not tell us anything about us what his real world effective worth is in an actual gunfight.

a better shooter on paper does not necessarily mean you can count on him when it counts.

A weapons operator becomes good when the operating of the machine or following of the procedures alone
is not enough to produce a desired successful conclusion. A shooter worth his real world salt can be relied
on to demonstrate that he can deliver outside the luxury of non life threatening controlled circumstances range.

nObody knows if he is capable of proficiently switching to his sidearm when his primary jams
or if he will just fumble/panic when under the pressure of real bad guys will real bullets.

I’d rather be shot at by a cop, than a guy that shoots IPSC.

Good thing gamer nonsense doesn’t have anything to do with “real” duty guns....




Oh wait....







While it’s fashionable to bag on “gamers” and open class- without them we wouldn’t be using red dots, compensators, tricked out triggers, magwells, match barrels, or big sticks. We wouldn’t have a hundredth of the ability to place bullets accurately at extreme speed, wouldn’t have near the processing speed or ability, ability to “see”, decide, and plan on the fly, or come up with novel solutions to near the level we can now.


Those pictures are from 3 years ago. There are now quite a few legitimate users of STI 9mm double stack open guns as duty pistols. That makes sense. The gun that can be shot the most accurate and fastest should be carried and used. Half the people I work with carry concealed pistols with red dots, triggers, match barrels, magwells, and compensators.

Isn’t that the truth.


There’s such a disconnect from rational thought when it comes to guns and fighting. The idea that shooting a pistol fast and accurately is some how different depending upon what the target is. I suppose it stems from ego. Most know they are not, and will not be high level competitors, but they have this belief that they really could be “good in a gunfight”. I guess the ego can’t handle the reality that if you can’t compete with them on a flat range, there’s no magic that will allow you to compete with them under “stress”. So people fabricate that the shooting is different and doesn’t translate.


Sure Usain Bolt can run 100m on a track in 9.5 seconds when there’s “no stress, but in “ real life” the fat 300 pound donut eating cop who gets out of breath walking to the mailbox, will totally dominate....

I've thought about using a carry gun with a red dot. I've been shooting Carry Optics for about 6 months and am liking it because the dot is a lot clearer for me than the front sight on an iron sighted gun. I'm still not as confident about the reliability of dots though. Maybe the new Aimpoint will change that, but I've seen a number of cases where slide mounted dots break after a few thousand rounds.

As far as competition shooters being able to shoot well in a self defense situation, I'd say they have a big advantage, because they regularly shoot under pressure and tend to have a much higher base level of skills. The range I usually shoot at is used by most of the LE in my area for training, so I see cops shoot all the time. On average, their level of skills is not very high, although the cops who also shoot in competition tend to be very skilled.

Opposing points of view, Formi's, a result of current real world experience, and the starfish's screed based on, who knows? He constantly refuses to discuss the training and background that would support his posts.

Those that believe that high level practice and gear are not beneficial need to attend a local match and see what ordinary people can accomplish. A B class shooter would be a formidable opponent in a gunfight and the big boys have to be seen to be believed. Those that shoot Production class well prove that the gun only enhances existing skills.

Does competition make a warrior, maybe not but a warrior with those skills takes his job seriously.

Airsoft can be useful for trained persons to practice FoF scenarios if realistically crafted and monitored.

Simunition training is available to civilians and instructors can be certified by Simunitions with as little as NRA instructor credentials.

There has never been a better time for the average citizen to become competent at self defense.


mike r

Form...

I should have had my “open envy” font on. I shot open class initially and as soon as I finally got it built out the way I wanted it....it was a $3k paperweight. I was young lad, 19 at the time and lived, ate, and drank the stuff. Sold everything I owned including my car....then felt the need for college instead of another 5k primers. Returned years later to Limited (STI Edge 40) then along came baby #1. Still remember the last match I was going to shoot before telling my wife that I was hanging it up. Funny, I told myself “just go slow, get A’s, and enjoy every bit of it”....

Well, schit.....almost won the damn thing. But, everything went to the blocks. The night I sold the last of my gear, I handed her an envelope full of cash and said “take what you want to get yourself something, we’ll put the rest in the bank...time for babies. That was that....

Had I never tried to run like a mad man, I’d never had to leave it. But that’s the way the cookie crumbles. You’re 100% on point with the need for open/gaming.

Open Class= F1
Limited = NASCAR
Production = Saturday night dirt track


Top class is ALWAYS where the growth is and everything follows.

So now......I’m my smart years....I plink. All or nothing tends to get you nothing, and I’m all about 80% return on 20% effort.

I do watch the living schit outta F-1 racing. Damn this summer break!

My last two years on the job we started using air soft guns for force on force training. Starfish's idea that the guns dnt realisticically match the size and weight of carry firearms tells me he spends more time with his lovers dick in his hand than an actual gun. The dog airsoft guns we used were every bit as "real" feeling as the 226s we carried

That's funny right there.

I wonder how many shots he gets before a reload?

Most dots are garbage and break in very few rounds. The Trijicon Type 2 RMR and Aimpoint Acro are the only true professional use pistol red dots right now.

Gen 3 with SI modded slide and barrel and RMR Type 2 on the right. Around 20k on the dot, well over 140,000 rounds on the pistol. On the left is the latest 19M/Gen 5 Glock with Acro. Only about 500 rounds on the gun so far. Both are quite accurate... for Glocks- 3in at 25 for 10 consistently.


Type 2 RMR’s go around 15-20k before any issues that I’ve seen. Multiple examples of Acros on Glocks, Sigs, 2011’s. 20-25k rounds. No issues other than reduced battery life.







Mike/16b,

Yep to all. Some of the best pistol shooters on the planet only train/practice with airsoft and then come to the US a week before nationals to shoot real guns a bit. They are very, very good.


Re shooting ability of competitive shooters versus military and police.... they’re so far apart it might as well not even be the same event. I have been apart of a rather large project to actually measure the military’s ability. It’s bad. The best shooters, from the absolute best 1-2 units in existence are at best C Class level UNLESS they compete outside work. The BEST special operations users are no better at shooting then what amounts to a beginner in competition.


There’s no comparison between a weekend warrior dedicated USPSA shooter, and police or military personnel. If you don’t compete- you’re probably garbage.

In your dreams.

To clarify, the top military people can and will shoot to that level no matter what. It’s still not where it should be in general, but their skill is “durable”.

The most popular slide mounted red dot in USPSA right now is the Leupold Delta Point Pro, but I think most serious competitors have a backup so that if one goes down they can use the backup. These have a pretty wide field of view which can be important in competition. But I don't think the Leupold is a durable as the two you mention.

Have had boxes full of DP Pros. They last between 2k and 4K rounds on average. The newest prototypes seem to be better, but I keep in mind it’s leupold.

I will throw in something I saw (many years ago now) at a Menton Week event.

1st SFG does an event every year with the Canadian Military called Menton Week. The first one I participated in I watched an SF Team Sergeant go through approximately 2 1/2 mags of M9 ammo trying to clear a plate rack at 12 yards. This was a stage on the 3 gun match they were running. The event while fun was a testament to what Formidilosus stated about the general level of military shooting.

I also saw the same thing at the Ft Benning International Sniper Match on 3 separate occasions. Teams made up of people who competed in civilian events were levels above guys who didn't compete.

Any gun will help you become a better shooter if you use it a lot.

That includes even non firing weapons.

Even an unloaded cap gun, when using proper form and technique for practice will help you with target acquisition time, reflexes, and proper posture.


Now... The pro-grade airsofts are a good training tool. They look, function, and feel like the real weapon. But you have to have enough time with the real one too.

Never thought C-Mores would ever have any competition.

People still use frame mounted C-More's on open guns. The new micro dots are slide mounted so they need to be pretty light to survive all that pounding.

It’s hard to believe they can take the beating.

They can make ya a better runner.

bunch of vids .
Air soft sniper rifle set up
Shooting cheaters in the battles they have
Making some hellacious shots on em

I'll bet you remember MILES gear.



mike r

Miles gear
Arrrgh...
I used ta get into so fugging many realism arguments at AAR s with OC,s and OPFOR fuggs.
Schitt like
Tell me how your guy standing up behind an 8 inch jack pine hiding his miles gear behind it on his body was able to be alive after one of my 240,s layed down 5or6 7rd burst dead on him before he even got a shot off
And then killed my whole crew
And the OC watched it all
If that was real world he woulda been full of lead and pine tree.
Just schit like that.

My whole company got basically wiped out by a opfor mark 19 on Peason ridge one time
AAR
I said so the opfor with the oc,s approval allow a whole company to get fired up cause you guys mount a direct fire lasar system on a indirect fire wpn at 600 to 700 meters
And have a saw and 240 next to it to help it fire its lasar faster due to it's slow rate of fire.

I was told to shut up...
I brought it up to the division CSM when he showed days later
Direct fire LOS lasar on a indirect fire wpn system and how it was bullschitt
( also helped the DIV CSM was one of my PSG,s back in the day and didnt play bullschitt games...

The opfor mk19 ceased to exist about a week later.
Then......

The opfor bubbafied made a quad .50 in the back of a fugging ice cream truck as spite in its place
With 4 miles lasers on it
Just some schit they threw together with spare barrels and mounted on a .50 Tripod and T&E welded to the floor of the truck
And a fugging gas gun activating the lasars..
Fugging wpn system dont even exist anymore.

Fughing quad 50 in the back of a ice cream truck
GMAFB...

Used ta get guys pcs into line dog world from opfor units
Most were not worth a schit and didnt know squat.
Specially ones that been their as their 1st duty station.
Get a fugging e5 or e6 opfor type.
I had pfc,s and spc,s that knew more about TTP,s than them

Do their one year of line time , get their nco ER and do everything they could to leave the line.


Rant about opfor over...
Hahahaha!!!!



Ultimate air soft is 9mm and 5.56 blue bullets at shugart gordon at Polk
Or Pat Cassidy on ftcky
Getting hit with outside of the armour like on the legs
Shin bone or knee cap espeically

FUGGING SUCKS...

Thank god we didnt have 7.62 blue bullets
M240,s only had blanks thank god.

I have no clue what you just said, it either sounds fun as [bleep] or your keyboard is sticking.

We were running some SOT-A guys through the shoot house one time, FOF with Sim rounds.

Their stack went through a 4 way intersection without clearing to the right side and one our guys stepped out behind them and dumped a whole mag of M9 Sim rounds into the trail guy from about 10 feet. All the shots were into the back of the thigh or butt.

He went to hollering and pushed the whole stack into the next room. I watched that and about fell over I was laughing so hard.

Q./
Would an airsoft background have turned the Parkland Broward deputies into responders willing to engage?

veteran of two wars and famous hunter WDM Bell, repeatedly dry-fired his rifle when walking many miles each day,
He said it was beneficial with helping stay familiar and conditioned with your weapon, but I dont recall him writing that
it was responsible for giving him the mental nerve /cool head needed to pursue and brain charging elephants from just
a few yards or less away. He attributed white hunters getting killed by game largely to their inability to maintain their nerve...
others words,.. marksmanship typically goes out the window when you lose your schitt.

there was a guy [on another forum] showing everyone how fast and good he was killing cardboard dangerous game
with his SxS rifle, he lauded how he could put 4 shots in 4 seconds in the kill zone..!
unfortunately for him some PHs tuned-in to say that what recreational hunters can do on paper too often translates
very differently in the field.

Do you want that Japanese Airsofter shooting at you?

Why don't you answer my airsoft/ Broward deputies question?



Is he even willing and capable of engaging in real world exchange of fire?

Nice Red Herring.

It's already been covered here:

The little Jap has been in a real gunfight where people were really trying to kill him?

again; would airsoft have given Broward deputies the required willingness to engage the perp?

That would suck.......
Fugging welts from em ache bad
I took a 5.56 on the inner flat of my right shin.
That schitt sucked for 2 days.

Yeah it welted him up pretty good, but he learned a valuable lesson about 360 degree security. Pus all the hooting and hollering as he tried to et the stack to move into the room was funny as hell.

Beatings will continue
Until the standard is met.

Hahahaha!!!!

They are two separate things. One is drive, one is skill. To consistently have exceptional outcomes requires both. Competition, including airsoft, is a skill component and done correctly can be a conditioning component under stress. But it is half the coin. Does working on a track make someone Usain Bolt? No, but you can not be Usain Bolt without the track training.

Sometimes pure anger without skill can work, often it ends horribly. People who hide while inocents are being harmed are cowards, and that has nothing to do with skill at arms.


Yes, I can take airsoft alone and create significant emotional experiences that condition and drive a person to do whatever I want them to do under stress.

I agree and have said nothing to the contrary.




I believe that's my point...Airsoft may well not translate to being mentally able/willing to engage.

With the example of the little Jap., we don't really what he's got as a package.



with regards to randomly pulling the average/typical airsofter out ,
what would you trust then as being capable of at that point?

starfish continues to waffle like the fat girl that couldn't catch the bouquet. Please enlighten us as to the experience that would cause you to contest Formi's hard won reality.


mike r

LOL...Im not contesting Formidilosus.

IVmiker...are you sober?

Guys that shoot under pressure know how to shoot under pressure. Obviously rounds coming back would be a higher level of pressure. Never had that problem.

But understanding present tense shooting and knowing you ain’t gonna miss is a warm and fuzzy.

Anyone that’s shot IPSC enough can tell you where every shot went.

There is “nothing” by itself that translates to mentally being willing to engage. It is a choice.

I'm just waiting on him to relate all of his tactical training, as well as his experience in confronting and dealing with armed individuals.

I imagine we'll be here for awhile, holding our breath....

Standing in the open firing a pistol real fast gets you killed while standing around in the open shooting a pistol real fast. That's the problem. You're gonna do what you did while training. Don't train for bad tactics. That's why I including hauling ass outta there after the shooting part of the drill. Standing and fighting or advancing solo ain't happening for the average fella if he plans to survive.

Any hunters considering a need for training up for home defense, run some drills with your rabbit or grouse gun. Learning you're already fast and deadly just putting birdshot in faces calms it down a bit. Which is good because dedicating a lot of time to tactical training for the average fella is mall ninja nonsense anyhow. Too much focus on guns and not the majority of what goes on.