I think it was Prarie Home Companion that used to have a regular spot called "Mister Worst Case Scenario." They'd give him a simple plan like "I'm going away on vaction next week." Mister WCS would then give a list of everything that could go wrong. I need a visit from Mister WCS.

My neighbor came up to the porch on Sunday with the idea for a fishing lake. He wants to damn the creek that runs through our properties and build a 4+ acre impoundment.



I've marked the current property line. Red is property with road frontage that I would receive in trade. Blue is what I would give him in return. It's the side of a hill, most of which he owns. We'd fix things so that we both own down to the creek. I've also plotted the minimum encompassed by the new impoundment. It would probably be wider than that; I'm being conservative. It's fed by a spring behind his house.

There is loggable timber in the blue area. We figure we'll use the proceeds from that to help fund the dam. He thinks the dam can be done for about $20K. I've offered to go in half up to $10K. I've offered the land trade before, without the idea of the lake entering into it.
The blue property is an area we've hardly ever gone to in the 19 years we've been there; it's hard to get to. I hiked it last about 5 years ago.


Plusses for me:

1) I get the road frontage directly across the road from my front porch. I'll control the view. I may let my sons build on it later so they have lake-front cabins.
2) I'll get better than 1/3 of the lake frontage at the widest part.
3) I'll be able to sit on my front porch and see a lake.
4) I'd also figured I'd build a pond once I retire there and I'd figured a budget of $10K to get it done. This gives me a much bigger lake than I'd planned for about the same budget.

Plusses for him:
1) He gets the rest of the hill he currently owns
2) He gets a lake directly behind the house-- maybe 8 feet deep.
3) It cleans up a boundary that his father disputed with me from the day we met. He claimed about 5 acres on the other side of the current boundary and removed the survey stakes that had been placed when we bought the place.

So, Mister Worst Case Scenario, wherever you are, tell me what can possibly go wrong.

That would piss me off no end and put the kibosh on all co-operation forever...I refuse to deal with thieves.

The DNR would never let it fly, in Minnesota.

Normally, I would agree.

Even when his Dad was alive, his son never held to the claim. In fact, he and I went out over a decade ago and I found a couple remaining stakes. He's in construction and brought out a theodolite and between us, we came within 20 yards of each other and decided that we were not going to argue over it. He told his father to STFU. The good news is the father never made a serious move on the property. He died of cancer in 2015, and his son has been doing his best to make up for it.

Part of the reason I'm doing this is to get the boundary to a mutually-beneficial line that offers something for both of us. The original line was completely arbitrary, set when my father and I bought the place. It's just where 200 acres came to. The first time I sat on the front porch, I realized the mistake. There is no zoning, so conceivably they could put up a trailer or a pig lot across the road from me, and I could do nothing. My neighbor gets more woods for deer hunting.

For reasons too complicated to go into, I'm already bound to do this through an attorney. We'll get clear title or it is nogo.

Can you be more specific on the reasons why?

Supposedly, my neighbor has gotten an okay from the state in a general way. He's promised to take me back over all he's done so far. The dam is going to be higher than normal. It will require a special permit.

Even if the lake falls through, I'd be inclined to go through with the property swap.

Wi DNR either......they'd be all over you like stink on schitt.......

Has to do with altering natural water flow in simple terms.

That lake might get bigger than you think during one of the frequent flash floods that pass through this part of the country.

My guess is, the first time you got a good gully washer the lake would start to flow around each side of the dam until it had eroded enough land away on each side of it that the dam would get washed away.

I agree. The ponds around us have serious spillways.

The good news on that front is that the gully that we're damming empties into a creek that flows through an uninhabited part of the county. If there were trouble, the most that might happen is a few cows might get swept away. This isn't going to be the Johnstown Flood.

Contact your county extension office. They can give you most of the info you need about the construction, and if it will be possible or even legal on that site.

Better do your research, find out all the costs on both ends and definitely lawyer up. Dealing with property disputes turn people crazy, even to the point of kin killing kin! Whatever you do, I'd tread lightly.

Good luck, but ime dealing with the king, the kings men decide what water can be damned up, well other than beavers, they don’t give a chit about the kings men.

My brother dammed a runoff on his property near Shelbyville to create a pond and the state didn't care. I think they may have even given him some fish.

What's your liability downstream if your dam fails?

Sounds like a win win situation. You get a lake you want and land you can use for land you have no use for. You also end a possible land dispute that could cost a fortune in legal fees. I’d do the land swap regardless of the lake. Usable land vs land you struggle to access and ending a possible legal fight. I’d also try to give him the Damn property also. Make the liability of the lake his problem and give the $10,000 as payment for the more valuable road front property not as a portion of the damn building cost and its liability. You won’t be completely off the liability hook because you will be signing off on the project but you would have some defense from ongoing maintenance liabilities.

Worst Case (in my opinion):

Some fool interloper trespasser decides to go fishing or swimming and hurts themselves.
Court decides the pond is an "attractive nuisance".
You are held liable.

Who pays for insurance and liability?

Hope it works out well for everyone.

Sounds like a fair trade on the surface but still I'd suggest taking as much time as needed to deeper investigate possible legal and personal unforeseen pitfalls before I formally committed to anything binding.

The lake sounds nice but could come with it's own future issues as well.

Nothing against your current neighbor but good neighbors today may not always be so good or maybe not your neighbor later on.

Have you had any sort of survey done to see where the waterline would be at different depths? It is pretty hard to estimate that sort of thing. How much water flows through the creek now and how much does it vary season to season? With flowing water you will have to have some sort of control structure that will handle the volume and also an emergency spillway to keep the dam from getting washed out in case of a deluge. I would think estimating that could get pretty complicated depending on the size of the watershed.

You should have some sort of agreement on sharing the maintenance and liability as well as usage or it could get ugly in the future.

It would be pretty cool to have a semi private bass lake! Go for it!


Jerry

In my experience, several .gov agencies like to get their fingers into something like this where you are messing with stream flow, even if it is on your own place. Better check into this in depth before moving any dirt.

I have what is called a blue line stream running through my farm. The water in it eventually ends up in the Cumberland River, then into the Ohio, into the Mississippi. , then of course into the Gulf of Mexico. Anyway, because it is considered a blue line stream, I was told that I could not do anything that would impede it's flow. It floods a portion of some of my fields in a period of heavy rain, and I was going to do some work on it to prevent that.

I'd check with the Natural Resources people at your local Farm Service Agency before I did anything to a running stream of water.

Make sure you have the right to fish/use the entire lake. I know of a small private lake where all the land owners properties extends to the creek channel and they are only allowed to fish on there property, without written permission. Wasn't always like that but some snotty neighbors got to complaining about people trespassing on their property, even tho they were in a boat fishing. Snotty neighbors wanted to fish all over the lake, but didn't want anyone to fish on their property. Wound up in court and court decided to limit all property owners to only the property they own. If you have written permission, you can fish on other property, just like hunting. Everyone on the lake gave written permission to all the other property owners, except the snotty one. Pizzed them off something bad. Last I knew, they were trying to sue all the other land owners for excluding them.

I moved and dont know what ever became of it, but I imagine the court threw it out.

FWIW, I lived about 1/4 mile from the lake and was not one of the landowners, but I did have written permission to fish the lake, from everyone except the snotty one.

Luckily this is is not a blue-line. It does not even hold water seasonally. It's currently just a drainage gully that empties into a blue-line stream about 100 yards after it leaves my property. My land touches blue-lines in several places, and yes! I'd play hell trying to do anything along them. As it is, I've been told by the neighbor that all we have to do is stay 40 feet back from the property line when we build the dam. Me? I'd go even further up the flowage before I started digging, but these are all issues to hash out later. For now, I want my neighbor to take me back over all the places he's contacted. I want the same people to tell me the same things before I let someone dig.

Didn't read it all but if I was you I would check with the Shore Line Protection Act and it's accompanying bills for navigable waterway. You might not want the headache.

When you called it a creek, I assumed you meant flowing water. It is probably a lot less restrictive to put a dam on a gully but it isn't going to make much of a fishing lake. Maybe a catfish pond. May turn into a mudhole in dry weather.



Jerry

Judging from what's happened with neighbors, these impoundments usually fill up in a year or so with run-off. It's taking the water from around 35 acres-- give-or-take. We'd be able to stock it after it one winter's precip filling it. Max depth as my neighbor planned it is 40+ feet at the dam. I think he's not being realistic-- the state might let 20-30 feet go. We'll adjust to fit reality.

Here's a lake we see on the way into Falmouth that's smaller, but has some of the same feel.






You can see from the aerial view the dam itself is pretty deep.

About a decade ago, or so,..*all* of Falmouth was a lake.

https://www.wvxu.org/post/20-years-...ky-flood-and-rebuilding-efforts#stream/0

Cool thread! You need to calculate your watershed area and make sure you’re not too big or small. If done correctly you should be fine, an emergency spillway will save the dam should you get too much rain. I built one 5 years ago and have absolutely no regrets except not taking out more trees around it. Leaves are not good for a pond, especially oak!

Worst case scenarios: neighbor uses logged off hillside for body dump starting with yours, pond breeds new hybrid mosquito that gives you west Nile virus and Ebola, neighbor strikes oil on the hillside, moves to Hawaii, wife leaves you for the other guy because she misses the hillside, red area is already a body dump, you go to prison for murder, you and the neighbor become best friends but his wife laughs like a pterodactyl so for the rest of your life you eat 1 or 2 meals a week with a woman who laughs like a pterodactyl.

You win!

you'll have a lake close to the house. you will want to buy a boat. the first boat will not be big enough so you will buy a bigger fancier boat. this will cost you untold thousands and endless aggravation when it ultimately fails just out of warranty. you'll begin to resent the boat and the lake and the neighbor. pretty soon you'll blame him for all your problems and the bickering and fighting will begin. one thing leads to another and you shoot him dead and end up in jail. and then a muslim buys your property for pennies on the dollar and opens a mosque. so now you're in jail for life and the whole county hates you for being a murdering, muslin loving piece of schit.

I remember this well. We're about 10 miles away; my lowest elevation is in the 690's. The house is up above 800. The Licking River is 2 miles away and sitting in the 570's at its closest approach. At Falmouth the elevation is 540. The Licking could flood to a depth of 200 feet at Falmouth, and my toes would still be high and dry. Poor Falmouth. What you don't see is that there is a South Branch of the Licking that merges with the main branch at Falmouth. The south branch is emptying from way down past Cynthiana and the main branch empties out of Cave Run Lake, 5 counties east of here. All that water came down to that one little spot and had nowhere to go, because the Ohio River was flooding as well. Yikes!


Regarding boats: I already have 3. One is a nice little ski boat without a motor that 's sitting idle in my barn. I figure I'll just find a way to drag it down there and hook a trolling motor to the back.

Who owns the water rights?

That's a good question. To be completely honest, I don't know. However, around these parts of the world, water is not considered a problem as far as quantity, only quality. Folks are encouraged to build ponds to hold back water to discourage flash flooding. I know this is quite different elsewhere. I've got multiple ravines on my place as big or bigger than the one we're planning on damming. When there's a heavy rain, they make noticeable roar for a day or so; you know you just need to stay out of there. Ownership? I'm sure someone will tell us as soon as we start asking what to do.

Is the branch slate bottom? If so a “key hole” cut will need to be made across the slate to keep water from seeping underneath. I had an amazingly strong spring and was considering a nice pond when I lived in Adair. I fixed that urge by selling the property. :-)

This is in the Trans-Bluegrass, north of Lexington. It's all limestone and clay. The clay is so impermeable that we all have to have ponds instead of leach fields for our sewage. The problem lies in the limestone-- if there's a gap, it can leak badly. Most recently, two locals have tried ponds. One went perfect. The other failed to hold water in the test dig and the project was abandoned. The two ponds are less than 1/4 mile apart, and to the eyeball looked identical.

In that case, you should dig out the dam/ key way first to see if you can hold water at the dam. If you are building in a natural ravine you can always pack clay over any area that might show limestone. We hit sand when we were digging my dam. This was after all the trees and roots were removed. I ended up mining about 30 truckloads of sand and plugging the seam with clay. Added about 5k to the job. I believe if you go over 25’ high at the dam or 3/4 of an acre in surface area you will need permits and permission.
Here we are packing clay in the keyway under the dam.

Sounds like a nice project...

Be careful the "split $20k in construction/fees" etc. doesn't turn into $100k and you are in for half... unless you have already thought of that.

IMHO, be very clear $10k is written down as your max available contribution.

Things may go very well and y'all get everything done for under $20k... then again much is unknown and projects can creep badly.

I quite agree. I know he was spitballing the $20K figure. I'm willing to get into a little creepage, but I've also been reading Chapter 150 of the KY Revised Code this AM, along with all the other attendant stuff. Yikes! I don't know how we'll get a qualified engineer to perform all those tests AND get a dam built for $20K.

Move some Beavers in....(grin)

I seriously asked about beavers a while back. I've got some places on the farm that would be ideal beaver habitat, and I know beaver ponds are also good for deer and turkey. I was told by folks here and elsewhere that encouraging beavers would be the worst possible idea. I have to admit, in the places I've encountered them, they appear rather indiscriminate in what they chew down.

I am sure there are plenty of PEs on 24HC that would help you out for some hunting/fishing rights... and some pay.

I would, but I am in VA and slam busy with my own chaos.

Good thoughts. That may very well be an area of significant risk. If your neighbor thinks he can “cowboy” the design and construction and it goes sideways, how are you protected? If the thing leaks like crazy and has recurring maintenance issues, what happens? It’s good you’re trying to think thru all this.

I would not do it. You hold ALL of the liability with a man made damn as the landowner that has it and your neighbor gets the benefit of a lake. If anything happens with that damn, then you are liable. Even if it is just a cow or two now, what happens in the future. You expect that damn to be there for more than a few years, so what happens if there is a pre-school build down stream in the future?

Also, if he is in a boat, you cannot keep him off 'your' part of the lake water. You put in a lot of work to make an underwater structure on your side and he does nothing other than get in a boat and fish your spot.

Fences make better neighbors (especially with the jerk history you have with his family).

Sounds like it is fairly common in your area so you should be able to find a civil engineer with some experience on this type of project. A consultation might save you a lot of headaches and regret.

On the other hand, you could just pick up a used dozer somewhere and have at it. Sounds like fun!


Jerry

Being a man of precious little property I may be scarcely qualified to contribute.

But it seems to me the land swap and the proposed dam are two entirely different issues, the land swap being far more pressing. Get that done while it can be done.

As for the dam, no one lives downstream now, but that too is subject to change at any time. You have to consider the probability that it WILL eventually fail.

Worse case scenario; that little lake has just enough water too attract nesting cattle egrets, which don’t feed around water but do nest around water. Before long you have 300 pairs of cattle egrets nesting in back of your home, their dropping stink up the place every summer and foul the lake, the resulting algae turning the water green, dying and using up all the oxygen and killing all the fish, the lake becoming a foul green morass speckled with dead fish. What’s left is ideal for breeding mosquitoes, the egrets carry West Nile.

Can’t touch the egrets they’re a protected species.

Meanwhile all the hundreds of baby egrets that get kicked/fall out of the nest wander pathetically around your back lawn, gathering against the house while slowly starving, their emaciated corpses forming fly-blown windrows.

I can show you three cattle egret colonies in San Antonio alone just like this.

The hog farm opens across the street and they complain about you.

The state will never let him dam up that stream, if it is in fact a stream.

That said, get some beavers.

Pretty much standard practice in Appalachia. Mostly when it's an outsider moving in. They're usually considered an enemy and considered fair game.

DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the first cleanups I worked was a new pond created by back-flooding a ravine. As the water rose an oil sheen appeared on the surface, then an oil skim. A previous owner had worked as a metal drum recycler and instead of disposing of wastes properly he re-drummed everything and buried them in the ravine.

The cost of that cleanup was a couple million bucks. The landowner couldn't afford the legal battle and let the bank foreclose on the property.

There are large portions of the Appalachians where representatives of govt offices don't [bleep] with.

Had a friend who worked as an EMT, got a call to a home up in a hollow (hollar). Woman was beat damn near to death and when they tried to take her to the hospital the husband retrieved a shotgun and threatened them. Friend got a call out to the local sheriff's dept who waited for state police back up (chicken schits) when they got there they talked him into allowing them to take her. When she asked why the hell they didn't arrest him, they told her there was only one road out and they'd never make it out of there alive with him in the back seat in custody.

I see many good comments here. My suggestion is to have the bottom property line come out just above the letter M at the damn. Have the entire land under the damn his. Widen your red section across the road to offset it. I would also include all of the drainage below the damn on his part of the property. You still can access the lake where it encroaches on your land. The entire maintenance and liability for the damn is 100% on his side. Yes, he could remove said damn in the future. But you have gained fully another piece of property. You might want a second small piece of land on the property directly across the road so you could have your son or anyone build there. Thus, I would not just do a lot line adjustment to the new boundaries but if you want a lot line adjustment do it only on the land you are giving up for the damn and below the damn. You would have part of your original piece shrink and gain a total new second piece. You might consider offering 12k toward the second piece and the agreement clearly states his is 100% responsible to build and maintain the damn, but you have access rights as an addendum to your deed. I think the damn should have a spillway. I also think there should be a built in gate to allowing draining. If in the future you get some nuisance animals (the birds mentioned above) then just let it fully drain down. A few months after nesting time you could close the drain and the spring and rain run off would fill it back up. Looks like this could be a good win win.

Shared ponds/lakes with more than one owner can become a nightmare with disagreements on how to manage the BOW, the fish, and who has access to the fishing. Not saying that it would happen, but your neighbor might have completely different goals for the fishery than you do. It also might be harder to sell your property in the future due to the pond being shared and potential buyers not being able to have full control over what goes on at the pond.

I’m reminded of the saying, “Freedom isn’t free.” Hopefully, ole’ Junebug makes it out to vote.