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Lennie: I have seen Grizzled Bears in that area several times in the past.
A few years ago I even witnessed a Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks crew "unloading" (dumping!) a Grizzly Bear from a trailered trap there in the Gravelly's!
Sadly that unloading (dumping!) of a Grizzly Bear was within sight of a large flock of domestic sheep being tended to by a Basque sheep herder as well as my travel companion and myself.
Big Game guide I know was so troubled by Grizzlies near there, last year, that he loaded up his camp and clients and left the area!
He told me he had seen at least 11 different Grizzly Bears in less than a week and some of them more than once!
It was just to dangerous for him and his dudes to camp/Hunt Elk/Deer there!
And that is saying something.
He also relayed to me that the Bears were "fearless"!
Not good, this.
I think a Hunting season, on the now "fearless" Grizzlies, would do some good and cut down on the Bear inflicted injuries/deaths of humans.
Beautiful country there that is closed now - sad.
I actually saw a Grizzly Bear chasing a small herd of Elk in that area several years ago.
Hoping no more humans are munched!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

News Flash, grizzlies are wild, free, and eat elk. They are also at the top of the food chain, do what they were created to do, and I’m happy for that... Wilderness is not the same without them. I’ll also be happy for their numbers to be thinned down a bit with a limited draw hunt, but I won’t be the one pulling the trigger. I have no desire to do so, though I won’t begrudge someone else the opportunity.

After all it is Montana. I would love to hunt one.

If you don’t like grizzlies on the landscape I would suggest you move somewhere more civilized.

Only in the Lesser 48 could a grizzly bear shut down a hunting area.

I’ll pass on bow hunting an area with 20 griz snacking on cow carcasses. It’s a big state and there’s better ways to die.

Most of us would like to see one hunt you.

Major New Flash:
If evolution is true grizzlies lost in the struggle for existence. If creation is true grizzlies lost in the struggle for existence. Why do do-gooders go against nature and reintroduce them?

My guess is that fearless Apex predators to the extent we see them today is a product of recent times. By many accounts the Indians kept pretty messy camps that must have reeked of food odors, yet one does not read of their camps been regularly stormed by hungry bears.

I’m inclined to think that most bear/human interactions back then usually worked out badly for the bear, getting stuck by arrows even if not immediately fatal, can’t have been a good thing. The bravest Indians even went out of their way to pick fights with grizzly bears in the same way that over in Africa Masai warriors would go out and pick fights with adult male lions.

Surely the 20 grizzly bears in question are in serious need of an attitude adjustment.

I hunted that area for 20 years and the last couple years I was out the griz really gotten brazen. One older gentleman from the area told me when he was young the only part of a griz you would ever see was his hind end because the bear was hightailing out of there when it caught a whiff or sight of a human. They need to regain that fear with a season on them.

Not vs Man with a rifle who can shoot. MAN is at the top of the food chain.


Jerry

If they become a problem - S S S

This

Eastern tenderfeet are funny.

Its real simple, don't hunt around dead cows.

Have to turn off add blocker to read the article.

That's a pretty common misconception... a season doesn't "educate" bears, or put fear in them. It just kills the few that can be harvested. Bears can't log-on to the internet and read hunting regs.

Again, I'm happy they're here, but would also like to see their numbers reduced slightly.

So all the intervention we humans do in nature to undo population loss due to our own activities is a waste of time? We obviously shouldn't have reintroduced elk, bighorn sheep, mountain goats... we should have just shot them into oblivion like the bison, then turned on to something else to destroy? Of course we shouldn't have preserved wild lands, we should have just mined, logged, farmed those lands... after all, we're the top predator, and we can do what we like, right?

Yeah, phug all those "do-gooders"...

How does a season on many other species work to introduce fear of man? Most critters in Yellowstone show almost no fear of humans. I saw a guy at the grand canyon hugging an elk. Lots of urban deer have little fear of people.

Do they have as much trouble with grizzlies in places where they are hunted? With the very limited numbers of bears that would be harvested it might take quite a while. And it would probably also help if we had more ways to deal with problem bears.

Anyone that has hunted for any length of time has observed how animals seem to sense a person in what I call "predator mode." Not sure how animals know a person with a bow or gun is seeking their life, but they seem to know.

Again, individual bears spread out over thousands of square miles getting "educated" by a season defies reason. An individual bear may sense you intend to take its life, and when it's done, how does this education he just experienced prior to his death spread to other bears?

There's some folks over the hill to the West of that area that better hope those bears don't get a hankerin' for Buffalo!

Again, how do hunting season's educate every other hunted species and other populations of grizzly bears?

You are talking maybe 5 bear hunters looking for 5 bears. The bulk of the grizzly population would never know they were being hunted. The few that get seen will get shot, all the while the bulk of the population had no idea anyone is looking for them.

You ever take a piss in the woods? You think you might leave some scent?

Oh never mind. No one here ever has a light bulb moment and suddenly gets it.

Can the grizzly bear tell the difference between a hunter that is after him taking a piss or the thousands of guys that hunt elk in the exact same area taking a piss? Guys that have never been in grizzly country really have no clue.

So in your scenario "prey" animals are the same as solo predators?

Animals acclimate to a magnified human presence no doubt... that doesn't relate to solo predators outside the park and away from the presence of daily human contact, nor can you transfer how a prey animal acts to the top predator on four legs.

While a single grizzly "might" be able to be educated by some means (likely being shot and wounded), the idea that all those individual bears spread out over 1000's of square miles will be educated is preposterous.

"Educating" grizzlies is a myth. They're going to do what they want. They aren't prey animals, and don't think or act as such.

I just want them delisted and protections taken away. Would be neat to be able to get a tag, but I'd be happy if I could shoot one out of my chicken coop without going to prison.

No one has mentioned the best part of the link. There are 5 related topics to this article and all of them are the Butte obituaries.

Grizzlies shutdown a big hunting area a long time ago, for sensible people. It's called the Parts of the World Grizzly Bears Live At.

A season may not educate anything. But ongoing pressure will as moms educate their young over time. A number of seasons will educate bears provided their numbers support that--but that taking place appears extremely unlikely.

Government stepped in and put up a fence. Expect more of the same, a precedent is set. The expansion of the urban population mindset in Montana will only encourage it as a bad bear will become a celebrity.

During the recent wolf expansion in the UP, the greater numbers of wolves led to pack education, as boldness (like eating pet dogs on a chain in the yard) eventually ends up pissing off involved people who take matters into their own hands---regardless of what the newspaper editors in Detroit furiously wrote.

Grizzlies don't run in packs, Montana doesn't have a bridge and it sure is a lot harder to dig a hole on a big rock unnoticed.

Guys that support liberal causes really have no clue, as in zero, none.

I support a grizzly season, is that a liberal cause? How many days have you spent in grizzly country? I don't mean the Portland zoo.

Oregon is as liberal as it gets, light blub.

So much for indigenous.

Callnumb
What state are you in?

No in my scenario animals learn over time that humans are to be feared or not. A source of food or not. And it won't change overnight either. We didn't get into this situation overnight. But you pointed out exactly one way that it will happen. Admittedly slowly. How do grizzlies act towards people where they are hunted?

Good question. How do hunted bears behave compared tp park bears?

According to those I have talked to, those bears that are hunted act exactly like the non-hunted here in Montana. One guy I know killed over 50 problem bears as an outfitter in the Yukon... he said they act the same as they do here. Some are aggressive, some aren't. They're all individuals.

There's no "education" that is going to take place with hunting. All we can do as hunters is reduce the numbers, and thereby reduce potential conflict. These are predators, not prey.

now some are not going to like what i feel would be better in the lower 48. > we don`t need wolves, grizzly bears or people with towels on their head in the lower 48

I'd support $5 over the counter resident tags and $10,000 non-resident draw for the shidt eating grizzles. How do you feel about that?

better lower the price on non-resident tags if you want the wolves and bears killed .

Shutting down a hunting area due to the numbers of Grizzlies? LOL!!

TFF.

Pete will just buy the $5 tag and only hunt on federally owned ground. That'll show you resident hicks!

Wish they'd export some to Chicago, New Orleans, Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, San Francisco, Memphis, and Monroe La.

Yeah, I think that's kinda crazy.

All over CA. Historical range. And hands off. If they area nuisance then relocate them 20 miles away. No euthanizing. Might help the homeless population issues. And the illegal pot grows will crumble, because they'll shoot the bears and then they'll really get serious about funding LE to wipe them out.

yes i agree , maybe down by the border too ?

Selective breeding; fearless bears get culled from the population, those that are innately afraid of humans survive.

This is what I believe happened over the millenia when humans routinely carried weapons in the woods and knew how to use them, and men confronted apex predators on a point of honor.

Dog breeders used ruthless culling to minimize unwanted behaviors in their dog lines until recent times. It works.

Bird, you stole my thunder.

I live in NW Montana and have had a number of "meets" with grizzly bears. Most were no big deal, but three were heart-rate boosters, and one was SCARY, with the bear on hind legs, and moving CLOSER. Wow, what a buzz that was when I finally felt the door handle of the pickup. Holy %*#. Couldn't beleive it, with the injectors rattling on the engine and the door slamming and tool banging?

Bears are smart. It only takes one event to food-condition the bear's reward center. One gutpile, one whatever, especially during hunting season and late fall when the bears are hypephagic and just big stomachs. And there are aggro bears, and sissy bears. The aggro bears got killed, or they got hurt and learned. The sissy bears stayed under cover or a safe distance away, and the sows taught their cubs how to behave.

But killing overly aggressive, or plain stupid, bears works for me. Get them out of the gene pool just like it happened for thousands of years.

All that crap about Montana being "wilder" because of bears? That's lame hooey. Tracking data shows bears don't care about humans or roads all that much, in fact, that most bears adapt their behavior to human use. And to human mistakes. I'm okay having them around, but I'm not going to be a casualty.

"men confronted apex predators on a point of honor". Give me a break, maybe for the rush, or to gain a rep or make a buck or because that was part of their adaptation to their environment. Societies rewarded successful hunters because they provided, good earners get more rewards.


mike r

Only a Texan would compare dog breeding to grizzly hunting.

You must have lots experience with grizzlies down there in Texas huh BW?

Typical liberal arrogance.

The only grizzly I have seen while hunting was in a remote area of Alaska while hunting Dall sheep. We saw a mother with 2 cubs coming our way and we started shouting at her. She at first stood up and looked us over and then dropped on all fours and started trotting our way. About 150 yards out she got our scent turned tail and she and her cubs ran away. The last we saw of her and the cubs was as they disappeared over a distant hill. That was a smart bear.

You live in your world while the rest of us live in the real world.

You believe the earth is 6,000 years old, and yet I don’t live in the “real world”... gotchya.

Yes. That's correct. You live in imagination.

Recently I watched a video called "How long were the Israelites in Egypt?". It changed my mind to about 7,000 years.

As my dad once told me, “don’t shoot a man who’s hanging himself”...

I like having the grizzlies out there, would also like a chance to hunt them.....

They keep Montana wild....

Yes. I hope they munch on dimocraps.

He could feed them and save an elk.

Where do you buy the dead cow location maps?

Oh, of course, you can smell a dead cow even while upwind, right?

You are living proof wild Indians were not the only wilderness inhabitants which didnt attack and kill folks who were "touched".

They need apes and grizz?

Outside of the social insects humans are about the only species where members of the group, especially males, routinely and voluntarily place themselves in extreme danger often to the point of death to protect the members of their social group.

You can believe that Indians in particular and/or all humans over the last 100,000 years had no sense of honor if ya want.

FWIW
I've been reading the actual diaries of Meriwether Lewis and William Clark on their journey with the Corps of Discovery. Loved reading Undaunted Courage, but this is the real deal penned in their own hands. It's a tough slog reading this combined diary full of strange spelling and turns of phrase but it helps me go to sleep.

Anyway, I wish I'd kept track of how many "white bears" they've already killed on the westward journey. It's a lot, and they're not even in the Rockies yet. The bears harassed them to no end and they'd hunt them just so they could sleep at night.

California was crawling with grizzlies back in the early 1800's The Golden Bear.

They're all gone now, but I read the state wants to reintroduce the grizzly into California. Yeah, good idea. Disarm the population and introduce an apex predator.

The concept of the presence of grizzly bears closing a HUNTING area IS just a little strange but with the increasing pussification of modern man, it's not real surprising. Here, just like much of northern Montana, we live with grizzlies and it is almost unusual, during a mountain hunt, not to see at least one. In general, we try to avoid them when we can and, if we can't, we can shoot them (I have not been in a position to have to do so, mind you). To me, not having large predators where we hunt would diminish the experience. It seems ridiculous though, to stop hunting just because there are grizzlies in an area.
As to whether hunting grizzly would change their behavior, I cannot really say. I know that Val Giest thinks it does but I'm not so sure.
Was it the Masai who, as a rite of passage, would challenge a lion and kill it with spears? Since this was a structured hunt, would there not be honor in doing it right? Honor is recognized by a society or a tribe. Their criteria for and honorable act may not be exactly the same as ours but it is their judgement to make. GD

Well you're sorta right. It's more conditioning rather than breeding. It's true the fearless don't last long. When we get a dumpster diver in town, we put a load of Remington Nitro Steel in their ass. Usually that pretty much runs them off for good. Sometimes the oddball shows back up an we may hit them again or just dump him as a DLP kill. I helped skin and flesh one that had steel shot in his hide of about three different ages. There were bright, shiney pellets. There were dull grey pellets, and there were rusting, dissolving pellets. He'd been smacked three times in about a month and half period to two months before he was killed. What I learned from the guy that killed him was that he exhibited wary and skittish behavior when he heard metallic clicks or if there was obvious human activity nearby. He's unass the area and sneak back in after about thirty minutes. That's basically what we want to accomplish. To have them be wary of people after getting burned. He turned out to just over nine feet. I had to file divots out of my fleshing knife afterwards.

How dare you forget New York, Detroit, Chicago, Seattle and Portland......I'm sure there are many more communities needing to be listed.

Just wondering aloud, Do you think running bears w/hounds would educate them? Not shooting/killing/hurting them, just harassing them enough w/hounds that they move to places where they're less likely to encounter the hounds/humans. I'm not a hound-guy, maybe Griz don't give a hoot about hounds and just kill them rather than run?

It is not the act--it is the repetition of the act, i.e. pressure. Consider it nagging--how much will you take?

Probably just kill the hounds.

No chance hunting them will educate them. You do realize that if there ever is a season again it will likely be a handful of hunters across their range in Montana. This isn't like hunting deer where they're being persued by thousands upon thousands of people. The number of human encounters likely won't change from what it currently is during hunting season. The difference being, now some of the bears that have encounters will be dead.

horse1,

I would guess this would be a much more effective way to change their behavior.

I was trying to guess how folks would mitigate bear encounters during the Westward expansion of the 1800's and a pack of hounds seemed likely. Now, of course bears treed/cornered were likely killed during those days, but, there had to be some that slipped away and learned that nothing good can come from human contact. Those bears that survived would've been "trained" to avoid the sounds/smells of humans (and hounds) and females would've trained their offspring similarly.

We're mighty short on Griz population here in ND and I don't have any hounds, so, as I said earlier, mostly just wondering aloud.

As an aside, IMO, anyone involved in policy-making or legal decision-making regarding Griz (or wolves) should have to live within 25Mi of a documented population of same.

Grizzlies can’t climb trees, so they will turn on dogs and defend themselves. Normally this involves the dogs turning tail and running back to the handler with the bear in pursuit.

I have a real problem with the feds shutting down areas because they see a grizz. I thought this land was our land,this land was your land. How can the feds just see a grizz and shut down entire areas?? What law gives them the right to do this??

As to dogs, I have 2 that run loose on my place. I had one pile of black bear shidt on my side of the fence a year or 2 ago. Nothing else. Neighbor is a houndsman and has a pile of the barking fiends, but all in kennels or chained up. He's had grizzlies demolish his chicken coop and be a general pain in the ass. I have plenty of sign and trail cam pics of the cock suckers cruising past, but not into my place, at least as yet. I have absolutely no doubt my dogs are the only reason I haven't had issues. yet.

I agree on your last sentence there horse1.

Constant and relatively predictable noise doesn't really bother any wild animals. We have deer and turkeys stand out on our range while people are shooting. So, it doesn't surprise me that bears will maraud the roundsman's place. It's just noise, not physical harassment. We have coyote tracks @ the range, but never see them, and the one and only raccoon I've ever seen there was haulin' tail for cover.

Nobody shoots @ the deer or turkeys on the range. I don't think there are any members who WOULDN'T shoot at raccoons or coyotes. The deer and turkeys just amble off into the woods if someone walks or drives down to one of the targets but they're never in much of a hurry about anything.

BGG, what I'm getting at is that I think you're right in that your dogs being loose and able to harass the bears are the reason they move on.

I was not aware of that, then I remembered soldiers and cops and firefighters etc. You too choose to live in your own world. Anyone who lives an honorable life probably has a sense of honor, this often varies w/in societies. Some embrace "honor killings" of their own families. Killing apex predators may just be a survival strategy for some. Romanticizing history is probably fun for many.


mike r

It would seem that Dogs can be used to educate Bears.

Karelien Bear Dogs

It would be nice if guys would read the ESA as it pertains to grizzlies. It would also be great if guys understood what a grizzly season structure in Montana and Wyoming would look like if the Feds ever delist. Without very strict season structures the bears will just end up back on the endangered specie list.

Heck you can't even run black bears with dogs in Montana, suggesting running grizzlies with dogs is just plain silly.

I realize you can't bait or run bears in MT. My ? wasn't as much about hunting bears as it was about harassing them until they learn/decide that hearing/smelling humans isn't a dinner-bell.

I agree that a hunting season isn't going to really educate any bears as the limited number of tags and enormous range of griz country would pretty much ensure that. Most likely it'd be boars only which pretty much ensures that it isn't going to do much to the overall population either. Again, thinking more along the lines of how does one get a bear to think it's better to be where human activity isn't?

Karelians are well known to worry bears out of yards and camps.

An employee at Yellowstone this past summer told me that a squad of Park Rangers on horseback mount up on horses to aggressively harass bears that repeatedly start returning yp camping areas in a proactive approach. Dunno the truth or extent of it.

Cops, Firefighters and the Military Arms merely codify common and innate human values in place probably as long as there have been humans. If we accept that for probably more than 90,000 years Homo sapiens survived as Hunter-Gatherers, it would make sense if we were innately wired for that lifestyle. The average modern person may live in a community of millions, but commonly socially interacts with around 30 to 50 friends and relatives, about the size of a representative nomadic H-G band.

Within this close knit band an innate emphasis is placed on cooperation and sharing, to the point it becomes socially uncomfortable to NOT share food at least with group members when eating. In our free time we like to get together with the members of our social group and act like hunter-gatherers ie, light a fire, cook food and share it.

H-G groups had well defined gender roles, such that male and female roles complemented each other to the extent that a bonded male/female pair could survive better than either gender alone. Even today, elimination of innate gender roles is proving maddeningly difficult for progressives.

For early populations, a ratio of one male of combat age to four children/women/elderly was the approximate norm. Hence 30 - 50 humans give a combat/hunting band of about six to ten. No coincidence that most team sports field about that range of numbers on the field at any given time. Human males especially are wired to operate efficiently in groups of that range. In modern combat this relates to the size of an infantry squad.

The Biological Imperative to protect those bearing one's own genes is well understood. This applies most strongly to one's own children, extending in lesser degrees to other relatives. Within their social group, the group of combat/hunting age males will pretty much universally refer to themselves as "brothers" even if no blood kinship exists. And as every combat vet seems to affirm, in actual combat ya don't fight for some lofty cause, you fight to protect your band of brothers, blood kin or not.

Throughout most of human history, for almost all populations, death at the hands of other humans has always ranked right up there with starvation and disease as a cause of death. Note, for death at the hands of other humans, almost always from rival groups, to be a major cause of death people don't gotta die every week. If one lives 30 years before this happens to them, then one murder in 30 years is all it took for that particular individual.

A willingness to engage in combat with rival groups or dangerous predators on the part of the males had great survival value for the group, and was lauded and idealized in almost every society. Likewise in many societies adult males were taught to at least verbalize a contempt for their own death, and about every society recognized and revered the ultimate sacrifice.

Anyways, just throwing that out there for discussion. All of the above speaking in generalities of course.

I should also add every society we know about since the beginning of time presumably had a small minority of either gender who preferred to live to varying degrees as the opposite sex. For women this would be tough, and combat was unforgiving even for men.

Those are awesome dogs. Great idea to boot.

Deserving grizzly bears get a pack of mother-in-laws!

They gotta be bombproof horses and conditioned to being around bears. As prey animals, that’s generally outside their wheelhouse.

My horses have a ‘winney of dire concern’ that will get me out of the tent with a rifle and the bigass spotlight.