Anyone shoot them ?

I am giving thought to buying one,not wanting to spend a lot.
Just something to play around with, occasionally plinking

I am 60 years old and have shot and hunted with Many Muzzleloaders But have only shot a few Cap and Ball pistols throughout my years.

I would appreciate some experienced input as to what might be a good model for me to get (I like shorter barrels on my handguns)so something in the 4 -5 inch barrel range would be nice, Also something historically correct would be great.

Also where are the cheapest places to buy from ?

Thanks

I shoot them and own about 2 dozen. Depending on your hand size I would look at a Colt's Navy model. The '61 being my absolute favorite. However, for ease of operation and dependability, the Remington Army(44 cal) or Navy(36 cal) are the most reliable. The problem with Colt's is caps tend to fall off after firing and jam up the cylinder. Not a big deal but it takes some time and practice to learn to quickly clear it and continue shooting. The Remington doesnt really have that problem since it is not an open top style revolver. Shorter barrel models are made as they got popular with the cowboy action shooters. 36 caliber models are sweet shooters, but even 44 cal pistols have very little recoil and they fit larger hands a little better.

Personally I would stick with Uberti. I have several different makes made in the 1960's thru the 90's and the Uberti made are the best quality. Colt's blackpowder series are great but pricey. I also shoot only real black powder. Nothing like a nice stinky smoke cloud from the holy black!!

I have some tips and tricks for initial cleaning, break in, and seasoning if you care to hear it, PM me and I'll giv you the rundown.

Also, if you want the look but not the hassell, Uberti makes some great cartridge conversion replicas of Colt's Army and Navy models as well as Remington's Army model. I own and shoot those as well, but they dont really compare to the cap and ball versions to me. It comes down to what sits well in your hand and which model suites your eye. Along with the Colt's and Remington's, you can also find some Confederate models as well as some lessor known makers replicas. Cap and ball pistols are great fun and really take you back in time when shooting them. And if you shoot at a public range be prepared to be the center of attention!!

https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/blackpowder-revolvers.html

I had three cap and ball reproduction Colt revolvers years ago. Armi San Marco reproductions of the 1851, 1860 and 3rd model Dragoon, Armi San Marco made the Colt 2nd generation Colt revolver parts which were finished in Hartford, Conn. Armi San Marco closed up years ago.

I had a local gunsmith who specialized in working on cap and ball revolvers for the crowd who shot at the muzzleloading matches held in Winchester, Virginia bore out the cylinders of the Colt 1860 and 3rd model Dragoon to .470 which matched the bore diameter. This required a custom mold to be made to drop a .475 ball. It is very common for the cylinder diameters for the round balls are sized and the bore diameters NOT to be sized correctly. I also had a dovetailed drift front sight installed on all three revolvers. The original design of the Colt factory sights was to hold the sights on the belly button for a center chest hit...hits about a foot high. Hence why I had drift sight pins installed. Place a pistol stock on a Colt 1860 Army if the revolver grip has the cuts outs for a stock and an extended frame pin the gun... will shoot dead on out to 40 yards which factory sights as originally designed. Not sure why this is the case.

Once the cylinders were bored out , each revolver was in my opinion was scary accurate. Touching holes with a cylinder was fairly common....the 1860 would shoot right along my S&W 686.. When I shared the pistol range with other shooters many were amazed such old guns could shoot so well. I did kill a deer with the 3rd model Dragoon using 40 grains of black 3F and a .475 ball, shot completely through a deer at 40 yards.

In my opinion the Colt 1860 Army grip is the best revolver grip EVER designed and placed on a six shooter. Ergonomically correct in every way.

If I ever where to buy another cap and ball revolver it would be a Remington 1858 copy in 36 caliber. I would have the cylinder bore out to 40 caliber, have a 40 caliber barrel
installed and buy .40 caliber round balls in bulk and go have some fun.

Uberti is probably the best as far as new makers. Pietta is adequate. The best will cost more. The best importer will be either Uberti or Cimarron.

Stay away from brass frames and go with all steel for longevity. The steel framed models generally cost more, apples to apples. This is unless you want a replica of a Confederate made gun. If you do and you want accuracy, read up first. There are brass framed guns out there that were never made in yesteryear and are replicas of nothing.

The cheapest and most common will be replicas of Colt's models 1851 and 1860. The 1860 has a longer grip frame whereas the 1851 (and 1861) have the exact same frame as the Colt SAA and will duplicate its handling. The '61 replicas are more scarce and thus will probably cost you a bit more. The other common and cheaper replicas will be Remington "1858" Armies. The Remington and Colt 1860's are ".44 caliber", actually nominally .451 bore size whereas the 1851/1861 "Navy" models are .36 caliber.

IME the Colt replicas are less likely to jam up due to spent caps than are the Remingtons since the Remingtons have the topstrap which tends to catch caps after they are blown to hell. Cock either make with a flourish as Phil Spangenbarger would say, and you will have less problems.

Personally, I'd get a Colt 1860 Army, steel framed replica made by Uberti and imported by them or Cimarron.

IMHO Uberti is the only way to go.

The best one I ever had function-wise was a .44 1858 Remington. My first handgun in fact after I moved to Texas from NY to go to Grad School (and therefore did not qualify for Texas residency). I found it used, it had been worked over before I got it. In particular the clumsily long front sight post they seem to come with had been filed down topoint of aim.

I shot the heck out of that thing. Some years later I gifted it off to the teenage son of a friend out West who worked summers on a dude ranch. He used it in their fake shootouts and running battles. Liked it so much in turn that later on it became his pickup truck gun, left loaded in the glove compartment.

Meanwhile I had bought a NIB Colt Signiature Series .44 1860 Army. My gosh what a beautiful gun! Charcoal blued like the originals. So very pretty I could never bring myself to shoot it. That same young man out West got it as a wedding present 🙂 Said it was the best wedding present ever

The most trouble free models are the Remington 1858 models. The Colts are cool, but are more problem prone, such as spent caps falling into the works and jamming things up.

When you’re shooting a number cylinder fulls in a row and the action gets stiff because of the fouling around the cylinder, do not force it by applying more force when cocking the hammer. The weakest point of the action is the pawl (hand????) where it engages the notches on the back of the cylinder to rotate it to the next cylinder.

I Chewed the heck out of the notches on my first Remington cylinder. IIRC I got a replacement cylinder from Dixie Gun Works.

Go big. Go powerful...

https://www.cimarron-firearms.com/cimarron-whitneyville-dragoon-44-cal-7-1-2.html

There’s a bunch of cheaper cap and ball revolvers, typically by “Traditions” (made by Pietta)that were never made back then, often brass framed and marketed as “Confederate”.

In particular anything marked “1851 Navy” in .44 never happened, the metallurgy of the time wouldn’t allow it. Which is why the game-changing ‘51 Navy was a .36.

The invention of “silver steel” in the 1850’s allowed Colt to squeeze a .44 cylinder into a .51 Navy-sized frame, hence the step-down on the back end of the Colt 1860 Army cylinders.

In the .51 Navy Sam Colt finally perfected the production line manufacturing system on a gun with fully-interchangeable parts. Efficiency and volume brought the price down to the point that common folks could a) find one and b) be able to afford it.

Demand for the gun was such that Colt even set up shop in London, completely rattling the hidebound British gun industry. Not merely firearms, IIRC in its day Colt’s efficiency of production and interchangeable parts set the standard for manufacturing in general.

Because of the genius of its size and proportions I think of the ‘51 Navy as the world’s first practical fighting handgun. Demand was such that IIRC the ‘51 Navy was in production clear to 1873, total production numbers over that 22 year span exceeding any other Colt revolver.

So if I was gonna get another Colt it would be a ‘51 Navy, I had one for a while, in the earlier square back trigger guard form (and correct for1850’s Texas). A great handling and historically significant gun, but I just didn’t like the primitive wedge system of holding the gun assembled. Eventually I traded it off after my interests centered upon 1830’s Texas.

I had one of those piece of shît .44 navy something remington bullshît wahoo $88 ones from gander mountain.


Haha

I started putting .429 jhp in it.

Shot a deer in the neck with it lol, pissed him off.

Dang, c&b’s have gotten spendy.

It ain’t a Uberti but the brass framed one that interests me is the .36 Spiller & Burr replica. A true Confederate gun, and the closed-top frame design combined with modest caliber apparently doesn’t stretch over time.

The reviews speak well of it.

Dixie Gun Works has it for $255, the link wont cut and paste. The is as close as I can get......

www.dixiegunworks.com

I have had quite a few cap and ball pistols over the years. I bought my first one in the hall of Chamblee High School, during class change, from a buddy of mine, in 1966. I don't think that would go over too well today. It was a Colt Navy. That was a nice pistol.

I have bought two of these in the past few years, the 1858 Remington by Pietta.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/837352151

I do have several Uberti guns and they are top quality. Pietta quality has fluctuated over the years but this is a top quality gun and just as good as my Ubertis. If you dig around some, you can find one cheaper than this one on Gunbroker.

I do prefer the Remington style over the Colt, as the Remington has the top strap and is a stronger design. When Colt came out with the classic cartridge pistol, the 1873 Colt .45, it had a top strap, so obviously Remington had a more advanced design.

Bill Hickok's choice, even years into the cartridge era. Yes, it was the first practical carrying handgun. Before that, revolvers were mainly for holstering on your horse's saddle, as they were too heavy to carry on a belt for any length of time. Pepper-boxes and derringers were for carrying on your person, before the 1851 Navy.

I like Remington's over Colt. I don't like the way the barrel wedge peens the cylinder pin.

Yes Wild Bill carried the .36 Colt and he killed a man in a gunfight at 76 yards with a single shot to the chest.
And whatever the .36 will do, the .44 will do better.
These guns are proven man killers and I have one right here for household defense, a Remington .44

Interesting.

Any particular reason, given the advent of modern handguns?

I have several guns for household defense, but here in the living room drawer I have the old time pistol.
I live in a log cabin that I built, it is new, but it looks like it was built in 1822. I hunt deer with a percussion rifle that I built and the patched round ball is a very good deer killer.

So, for old times sake I do have one of the old time pistols loaded and ready to go. I have read many reports from cavalry battles in the Civil War at what a good man-killer the old cap and ball pistols are. True it only has 5 shots but they are 5 badass shots.

Sounds like it would be fun to shoot!

IIRC soft lead RB have always performed way better than they should, including .36 and .44 at handgun velocities.

Prob’ly significant though that when Sam Colt and Samuel Walker set out to design a fighting handgun better than the .36 Patterson it was a .44, and Colt himself shoehorned a .44 cylinder into a ‘51 sized frame to creat the 1860 Army just as soon as metallurgy permitted.

I have a 58 Remington copy. It is as accurate a handgun as I own, and fun to shoot. I would, however, prefer to wash and wax a large motorhome as to clean it after shooting.

Here in Texas the legendary Ranger Jack Hays could reportedly shoot the head off a chicken across the street with his .36 Colt Pattersons.

I’m wondering what Wild Bill Hickok’s earlier experiences had been with the ‘51 Navy during his earlier days. How many men did he actually kill and when?

The late gun writer Elmer Keith (1898 - 1984) wrote a book, "Sixguns" in the mid 1950s. In it, he included a chapter on cap and ball revolvers.
Keith learned how to load and shoot these revolvers from Civil War veterans when he grew up in Helena, Montana. In 1912, at the age of 14, he began carrying a Colt 1851 Navy in .36 caliber.
Keith recommended FFFG black powder for the .28 and .31 caliber revolvers, and FFG black powder for theh .36 and .44 guns.
He didn't list loads by weight, but he instructed to pour in the powder until it almost filled the chamber, leaving room for a greased felt wad.
Keith punched felt wads from an old hat, and soaked them in a lubricant made of melted beeswax and tallow.

This wad was placed over the powder, then the ball rammed down with it until the ball was slightly below flush of the chamber.
Keith noted, "A percussion sixgun thus loaded will shoot clean all day if you blow your breath through the bore a few times after each six rounds are fired. It will also shoot very accurately if it is a good gun."
"I had one .36 Navy Colt that had a pitted barrel, but with the above load it would cut clover leaves for its six shots, at 20 yards, all day with seated back and head rest and two hands used between the knees to further holding," Keith wrote.

"For its size and weight nothing is so deadly as the round ball of pure lead when driven at fairly good velocity," Keith wrote. "Maximum loads give these slugs fairly high velocity from a 7-1/2 inch barrel gun.
Keith knew two Civil War cavalrymen who had seen an enormous amount of battle in the Civil War. Major R. E. Stratton fought in the Confederacy's 1st Texas Regiment. Samuel H. Fletcher fought in the Union's 2nd Illinois Cavalry.

"Both Maj. Stratton and Sam Fletcher told me the .36 Navy with full loads was a far better man killer than any .38 Special they had ever seen used in gun fights," Keith wrote.
"Maj. Stratton said that for a man stopper he preferred the round ball with chamber full of FFG to the pointed conical bullet," Keith wrote. "Sam Fletcher also told me he preferred a pure lead round ball in his Navy Colts with chamber full of black powder, to the issued conical ball load.
"Fletcher claimed the round ball dropped enemy cavalrymen much better and took all the fight out of them, whereas the pointed bullet at times would only wound and leave them fighting.
"Fletcher stated, however, that when foraging and shooting cattle for meat, the pointed bullet was the best for body shots that had to be taken where penetration was needed. But that on all frontal shots on beef, the old round ball was plenty good and would reach the brain --- even on bulls.

I know what you mean. Love to shoot the old pistols but what a PITA to clean.

Great post, tks

Here’s a thought, a .44 RB contains about 180% of the lead a .36 cal ball does, and even today .44 RBs cost about 40% more. Likewise a full .44 cal charge burns about half again more powder than a .36.

Most folks weren’t rolling in money back then, simple economics combined with inherent accuracy and sufficient performance could explain the longevity and popularity of the ‘51 Navy. More bang for the buck.

Dixie Gun Works is selling NIB Uberti ‘51 Navies for $295, .44 1860 Colt Armys for $310 and 1858 Remingtons for $315. Plus they stock spare parts and extra cylinders.

Any one of these is a good deal IMHO. The 1860 especially is a beautiful handgun. The Outlaw Josie Wales apparently thought so.

Midway has Uberti on sale right now, all the models are right around $300. They do this once or twice a year.

I'd say, never get a brass frame for a shooter

I'd go with Uberti, but even some of the ubertis need some attention, like deburring rough edges, when you first get them.

.36 revolvers are nice, '51 Navy is THE classic.

the pocket models have even more problems with cap jams than the full sized. There are some gimmicks to avoid it, I'm just learning.

There are a bunch of facebook groups dedicated to C&B revolvers, and a bunch of dedicated websites, google for them. Several interesting youtube channels including one from Hungary called capandball.

a bunch of guys are making and shooting the 1850's style paper cartridges, lot of work, but fun. There are tools to form the paper available.

I would never mess with a cartridge conversion cylinder. use your modern guns if you want to shoot metal cartridges.

put ONE HOUR or more into your afternoon/evening schedule to clean up the SAME DAY you go shooting for EACH C&B revolver you shoot that day.

have fun!

Poole

I have two, one is a Colt, 1860 Army, SN says 1862, the other is a New in the Box Colt Black Powder Series 3rd Dragoon. Both could be shot, but just don't want to clean up the mess.

Pietta Remington Sheriff's Model, 1858

For me the problem is that it takes so long to reload the things. That's why I don't shoot mine as often as I would like to.

As far as cleaning them goes after I remove the cylinder I poor hot soapy water through the chambers and bore. This cleans out the fowling fast and for good measure I treat these same areas with T17 Foaming Bore Cleaner. This leaves the said areas clean like new and does not take long at all.

I shoot two replicas. An 1851 Navy and an 1858 Remington. I prefer the Remington replica because it is much easier to take apart for cleaning and shoots to point of aim.

You can get any model that suits you. Make sure it's a Uberti.

Wife's Colt 1851 Navy "squareback" reissue shown with my Grandpa's circa 1900 saddle, my Douglass Kidd holster and the wife's M1860 Cavalry sabre.

Edited to add: Mexican belt courtesy of Walmart.

I've owned a brass-framed .44 cal Navy Arms revolver since 1972 (cost $50, I think) and have shot a bazillion rounds through it. You couldn't blow it up if you tried because [1] it's black powder (very low pressure) and [2] the chambers will (obviously) only accommodate a limited amount of powder. Accordingly, cautionary statements about the durability of steel-framed black powder revolvers are overblown. Brass-framed revolvers are also cheaper to buy and look great as the brass ages.

Black powder revolvers are fun to shoot and, if you see a brass-framed model that you like, buy it and don't look back.

Walker?

Yes.

Williamson .36 brass frame, uses the .380 ball. $49 at Woolworths in 69
Had to change nipples years ago. Soft caps disappear on mine si it seldom jams. Reloading is the least handy oart, i have thought if trying to make paper cartridges
The sights are a notch in the hammer and a brass bead. Since it is a fun only gun there is no reason to load hot or large caliber. I have administered coup on 2 deer with it

Great looking revolver
I ordered one today,along with an extra black powder cylinder.
$353.00 shipped with taxes from Cabellas for both .


Now I have to figure out the best powder to use and what brand and size of caps ,which lube
Make a holster for it and a belt pouch for the extra cylinder.
Maybe experiment paper cartridges.

Get an extra cylinder and a loading tool for it. Those short barrel C&B's can be a biotch to seat a ball in because of the short seating lever.

How about a proper sized length of steel pipe to slip over the end of the loading lever, adding as much extra leverage as you need?

Saw a Ruger Old Army Blackpowder Revolver some idiot did that to and tried to return at the LGS. Bent the schitt out of it.

That would mean that no amount of hand pressure would have been sufficient to work the lever without breaking it (i.e., Superman wouldn't have been able to compress the ball into the chamber). What went wrong to cause that?

I got an 1849 pattern 31 pocket revolver made in 1854 for $445 in pawn shop in 2017.
It was a glob of rust with missing grips, hand, trigger spring, and some screws.
I found some old repair parts and timed the revolver.

Last week, my brother in Montana bought some # 10 percussion caps and lead balls for it.

Haven't got around to shooting either one of these yet, probably cause I gotta clean them afterwords.
Bob

Very nice pair!

Those are awesome. We'll have to schedule a duel over in the optic forum!

Most of the cylinder-jamming problems from cap debris on those open-tops can be avoided by simply pointing the muzzle straight up while cocking the hammer for the next round.
Jerry

I've never played with black powder revolvers. But I spent some time shooting 000 buckshot out of Martini Cadets. Those little .323 round balls at 1700 fps had a lot more shock that I would have expected. My intention was to work up a small game load with them,....and I suppose one could. But you need to keep them very slow.

I shot some grapefruits at 50 yards with them and a good center hit with a 000 buckshot at 1700 fps would simply make them disappear. I'm fairly certain that a rabbit or squirrel shot with one of them wouldn't leave enough meat to bother with.

Mine takes #10 caps, which are problematic to find around these parts. I will be roundly chastised for this, but after cleaning melted a Crisco out of my holster, I quit using any lube. When seating a round ball, mine cuts a nice little lead ring from the round ball. I can’t imagine improving on that seal, and have yet to experience anything resembling the mythical chainfire.

I bought a matched pair of the Pietta 1851's with the short 5" barrels. Steel case hardened frame and 44cal bore are not historically correct necessarily, but they work for me. Cant overload them and with a flush round ball and 30 gr Pyrodex there is almost no recoil. Accuracy is not target, but with period sights and less than stellar trigger pulls, you cant expect much more. I think they are neat.

Switch to the shooter now--a stainless Ruger Old Army I've had since the late 70's. Loaded with 40 gr of Pyrodex and the 457 round ball, it shoots two inch groups at 25 yards all day and the recoil is enough that you know it has some punch. About like a factory 45 lc. The Ruger is so much easier to clean because of the stainless steel. Just dump it in a tub of warm soapy water and a toothbrush and a bristle bore brush and its clean! Rinse it in the hottest water you can get out of your faucet, shake or blow it dry, and you're done. Dont even have to oil it. Only downside is its size and weight--about 50% heavier than the Piettas. Wouldnt want to carry it in a belt rig all day.

Back in the 1970s and 1980s, I kept coming close to "pulling the trigger" on buying one of those Ruger Old Army revolvers. Next thing I knew, I heard they discontinued them. Wish I had bought one.

Fun to watched fired about dusk.

They just did a limited run of them about a year ago.
You can still find a decent deal on them at a Gunshow once in a while.

Was reading to see if I should post that. No need now!

I'll have to try that. I have an 1860 Army.

Some of these posts remind me, I did send you down the Primrose Path a little bit with that gun.
I have had this loading stand for so long that I just take it for granted.



Some of the guys were saying it might be hard to load that gun with that short lever on the gun. I never use that anyway I just use my loading stand. I'm sure you can get one at Cabelas or Dixie Gun Works.

Someone was saying what a great pistol the Ruger Old Army is, but it is barrel-heavy. I couldn't agree more.
So I fixed mine up.



I got my favorite gunsmithing tool, the Sawzall. BE SURE to use the metal cutting blade.
I removed the loading lever and cut the barrel down to 5 1/2 inches, the gun handles well now.

bcraig, the reason I didn't recommend the ROA for you, is that it is not a copy of anything. Ruger just designed their own model of a cap and ball revolver, it has adjustable sights etc., so you wanted something historically accurate so this is not the gun for you.
This pistol is made in America and it is top quality, really a beautifully made gun.

The Ruger Old Army is no longer manufactured, but it is easy to buy one. They are all over Gunbroker.

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=ruger%20old%20army

It is like a time machine there are lots of them on there, 40 year old pistol New In Box. I got a brand new one, in box, for $510.

I think Ruger at the time, wanted to make the best cap and ball revolver ever, and maybe they did.

I came into a 32 caliber pocket pistol years ago.

It is not a fancy thing,cheap kit gun.

When me and my Daughter were shooting it a while back it was a hoot.

One could not get enough black powder in the cylinders to blow it up.

At a distance of about 20 yards shooting at a stack of oak firewood them little balls would sometimes bounce back and hit the bed on my 92 f250.

Had one hit me at the belt line and i had been hit harder by a rock thrown by some friends in a war when i was a young man.

Cleaning was easy.
Filled a pot with hot soapy water and all of the fouling came out easy.

After drying just put a light wipe of oil and it was put up.

By the way powder lasts a long time it those little things.

I know it is a Purty thang ! So I will forgive you for leading me down that path !
I read in one place that the revolver needs .451 balls and another place that it should use .454 balls ?
I am not really wanting to use the bore butter route as It looks like a good way to get it all over everything and in the holster I am going to make for it and the spare cylinder.

What kind of powder would you recommend for it and how would you load it for good accuracy without Much chance for Hang fires or Chain fires ?
Which caps are best etc.
I am thinking somewhere around 30 grains maybe 35 grains would be fine ?

|I might look into getting one of those loading stands but I am going to see how difficult it is to use the loading lever first.
Sure looks like the work you did to the Ruger made it a lot more Compact and balance better,easy to carry,and from what I understand does not really result in a meaningful loss of velocity using round balls.


Thanks

I've got that 36 caliber---sheriffs model. It's fun to shoot but I really don't like the cleanup after a short shooting session at the range. It mostly sits in the gun cabinet.

Bass Pro showed up as having #10 Caps if you are located close to one.

I am with you that as long as you have a nice solid ring all the way around on all the holes that should keep a chain fire from Starting at the front of the cylinder,and a nice fitting cap Should keep it from starting at the rear.
I say SHOULD because I sure don't know for sure as I have no experience just been reading on youtube and different forums for the better part of 10 hours

SOUNDED like it made sense !!
But Maybe the old hands with a lot of actual hands on experience will chime in concerning chainfires.

Are you using .451 balls or .454 balls ?

Sweet,I bet that the 36 has almost no recoil at all.
What kind of accuracy do you get out of it ?

It will shoot better than what I can. I wanted a 36 because everything else was a 44. Besides Wild Bill used a 36.

Some of the other guys were recommending Uberti. I can't argue with that I have a Uberti and it is a great pistol.
However this little Pietta is really made well, I will be interested to see what you think about the quality.
With the short 5 1/2 inch barrel it handles nicely, and I even left the loading lever on it.

I bought one of these Sheriff's two years ago and I liked it so much, I bought another one a week later.

I haven't loaded mine in a year, but I used at least 30 grains fffg. I say pack that cylinder full, you can't blow the gun up with black powder. If you load a chamber with 30 grains, and load it and see there is more room there, try 35 grains in the next chamber.
I use Remington #10 caps. I use .454 balls I want a tight fit.
I buy Wonder Wads, and I make my own lube, which is what the calvary troops used in the Civil War. I take equal parts of bees wax and mutton tallow, and melt that. Then I dump all 100 Wonder Wads in the melted lube, pull them out and put them on a paper towel to dry.

I put in the powder, then the wad and then the ball. The wad keeps the barrel lubed up and you can shoot a while without needing to clean it.

Those wads ought to help prevent chain fires. Chain fires are a mystery to me. With the .454 ball you shave a lead ring when you load it.
So that is a very tight seal. And the cap seals the chamber at the other end. I don't understand how they can happen I never have had one.

Years ago, I mean like 50 years ago, it was common for people to say you had to grease the front of the chambers with lard or Crisco to prevent chain fires. I remember reading back then it being suggested that using a cake decorating device loaded with Crisco was the ideal tool for this. So, I did so and very soon learned that after firing two or three chambers, all of the Crisco melted and I had a mess of melted Crisco mixed with charcoal-like black powder residue all over the front of my pistol. Black powder sparks melt Crisco pretty easily. I figured out real quick that this was not right. I noticed, as others have pointed out here, that when loading a ball there was a fair sized ring of lead shaved off that was indicating a very good tight seal of the chamber. I could not see how any sparks could possibly get around the ball if it was the correct size. I abandoned the greasing the front of the chambers and have never had an issue with a chain fire when loaded with lead. Now, firing blanks at a WBTS reenactment when there is not any lead seal on the front is a different situation and other steps need to be taken. Also, I have done rather extensive research over the last 50 some odd years and I have never seen any indication or even suggestion that in the 1850s, 60s, or 70s that anyone ever greased the chambers nor have I found that any of the surviving paper cartridges issued by either Federal or Confederate arsenals nor private companies issued or provided for chamber grease or wads. In practice some individuals may have added a wad of some sort between the powder and ball, but there was no such item as an ordnance issue, nor any reference to such in contemporary ordnance manuals. I have reprints of the original manuals from that time period. Having said that, I do think that is a good idea to include a wad, but not necessary.

Along those lines, Colt produced a five shot revolving rifle of .52 caliber during the war. Yankees at the Battle of Chickamauga armed with these gave the Confederates fits defending Snodgrass Hill against Confederate assaults there. In doing research on a particular Confederate unit engaged there, I found in some memoirs written by a soldier's captain that picked one of these up during the battle as a replacement for his single shot muzzle loader rifle, carrying it through the remainder of the war. Most of their regiment was armed with either .577 caliber British Enfields or .54 caliber Austrian rifles. The soldier was able to use the available .54 caliber minie bullets in this .52 caliber Colt revolving rifle as it loaded the same as a Colt pistol, shaving off the excess lead at the front of the chambers when rammed in.

Also, a tip to those who clean the cylinder of these by dunking well in hot soapy water and spraying with oil when dry: unscrew the nipples (cones) from the cylinder and clean and oil the threads as well. If you don't, they will in time weld themselves to the cylinder and you might get them out maybe after heating them with a propane torch and some serious cussing. It's a hassle, but worth avoiding a bigger hassle later. Burnt black powder is not friendly to iron/steel.

Cool info and of course a good tip about the nipples, one of those things one might assume everybody knows but of course some won’t.

I used to remove them when cleaning, clean them with the rest of the revolver, and then oil the threads before putting them back.

I have tried to find Goex Powder here Locally and cannot find any thing.
So I am either going to have to Make a 5 hour Round trip to Dixie Gunworks Or order online and Pay outlandish Shipping and Haz Mat charges or Just Use Pyrodex P.
From what I remember using in rifles the Pyrodex was actually harder to clean up than real black powder.
What is your take on this ?

Well I got it in along with the extra cylinder and it looks great to me.
The trigger pull varies between 3 -1/2 to 4-1/4 pounds but has some creep so I am going to take it apart and smooth it up and remove any burrs inside

When you say you use the Wonder Wads do you just Lube over the existing lube or do they also make some without the Lube?
How thick are the wads?

I already have some beeswax and am thinking about using 2 parts beeswax and 1 Part either Crisco or Canola oil.
I think that would be stiff enough to use as an under the ball wad without any worry about any worry about powder contamination during hot weather and still enough lube for colder temps to keep the powder fouling soft.

I Just got 300 of the Hornady .454 Balls in from cheaper than dirt,I already had some reward points from prior purchases and they had free shipping so my total cost was only $7.02.
Found some local Remington #10 caps for $6.41 tax and all.

Going to bite the bullet and order some Goex FFFG online and pay the Haz Mat and Shipping.

Trying to make my mind up whether to buy some wads and lube them or buying a punch and just making my own wads then lubing.
Maybe try making some with Toilet paper or Paper towels.

If you use Wonder Wads between powder and ball, you don't need any additional lube or grease to prevent chain fires.

I make my own cast bullet lube using a toilet bowl wax ring (beeswax) and a few tablespoons of general purpose automotive chassis grease (NOT wheel bearing grease) plus enough jelly jar sealing parrafin to get the right stiffness for my Lyman Lubersizer. Just melt all the ingredients in a double boiler, stir well, and pour the liquid lube into the lube chamber of the Lubersizer instead of using an expensive hollow lube stick. I believe some variation of the same formula would be good for making cap and ball lube wads.
Jerry
.

I am not so worried about chain fires as I am about getting plenty of lube in the barrel to keep the fouling soft and keeping some lube in the cylinder base pin so there will be plenty of lube there to aid in cylinder rotation for longer strings of shooting before the cylinder starts getting sluggish to turn.
Also thinking about taking a file to the base pin and putting about 4 shallow grooves on top and bottom to aid in keeping lube there..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbrJ95NapjY

Dixie Gum Works is well worth the drive. Be sure to check out their museum while you are there.

Good post, simonkenton. I mostly agree. By way of establishing my bona fides, I competed regularly in SASS matches for about 10 years (and still do, sporadically) in "Frontiersman" Class... which means you have to shoot cap n ball revolvers, and your rifle and shotgun must use cartridges loaded with black powder (BP) or a BP substitute like American Pioneer.

I started out with Uberti Remington replicas, but quickly learned the cylinders bind on the cylinder pin before I could ever complete a match, so I switched to a pair of Uberti .44 caliber Colt 1860 Army revolvers, and then a pair of Pietta .36 caliber 1862 Police revolvers. I have used both the 1860's and the 1862's in multiple matches. I don't particularly care if I win or lose a match, as any Frontiersman is miles behind the cartridge gun shooters. I try to shoot each match as authentically as I can, and shoot it "clean" (as in no misses, no way a feller can shoot 200+ rounds of black powder and not be filthy!). I use the 44's in shorter/smaller matches, mostly because I love the smoke and roar of the big pistolas, but they are not as quick to fire as the 36 caliber Pietta pistols, and despite the longer barrels I find them no more accurate. My 1862's also have the bonus of being nickel plated, which seems to be less vulnerable to cylinder bind-up on long matches.

But to your point: I don't think there's much to distinguish between Pietta and Uberti in terms of quality. Both require work to bring them up to the reliability and accuracy potential proven by the old Colt's and Remington C&B guns of the 19th century. There are articles online on how any reasonably handy person can do this work to his own guns. They do not need to be sent to a gunsmith unless you want to bore out cylinders, which for purposes of cowboy shoots and plinking isn't strictly necessary. Numrich and Brownells sell almost all the parts you could need.

I also have a Ruger Old Army revolver, which is an entirely different animal: capable of handling loads that rival the old Colt Walker, it's in a class of its own. I would like to take a deer or hog with it, and it's more than capable of that. But it's not a competition or plinking gun, really.



I don't weigh out grains. I have a couple of copper powder flasks from Dixie Gun Works, the ones with the long brass nozzle and the spring-loaded valve. You turn them upside down, hold your finger over the end, open the valve, and the nozzle fills with the correct amount of powder. You cut the length of the nozzle for your particular guns. I have one for the .36 calibers, which holds about 33 gr of FFg, or about 34 gr of FFFg, and another one for the .44's, which holds about 36 gr of FFg. I use round balls, pure lead, that I cast myself, using Lee moulds. They're about .005 caliber overbore. I also use #10 caps, which don't fall off the nipples as much as #11's when you cock the hammer. Also: aftermarket nipples are available from several makers, which improve reliability considerably. I use SlixSprings.



I do the same, but with a 1:1 mixture of beeswax and Crisco. Works well, in all my BP guns. My Sharps bullets are lubed with the same stuff.




Wonder Wads will prevent a chain fire event, I've heard. But I've never met anyone who's had a chain fire, and I've met a LOT of BP revolver shooters over the years, so I have to wonder if this is something real or merely a modern legend.
EDITED TO ADD: I typed that remark last night without really thinking beyond the superficial fact. I did NOT intend for anyone to take it as me saying it's ok to shoot your C&B revolvers without lube or wads. There are some excellent Youtube videos showing chainfires occuring, and one in particular...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne4VgCdAy7Y

... shows how to make one happen.

Just use Wonder Wads. As previously noted, I've fired thousands of C&B rounds in matches and for plinking without a chainfire, but I've used Wonder Wads or homemade equivalent throughout my BP sixgun shooting.

Sorry for the stupid mistake in last night's post.

Dayom, James, I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything you haven't done.

Never had sex with a man or a four-legged animal. A couple of 2-legged animals, yes. One a blonde and one a redhead. But no quadrupeds.

I have VERY limited experience with cap and ball revolvers. Think I've shot one, once, and watched one shot another time.

When I shot the revolver, the owner explained about greasing the cylinder chambers to prevent a chain fire.

When I watched one shot (later on), I asked about greasing the cylinder chambers to prevent a chain fire. The owner told me "That doesn't happen with this one".

On shot "3 we heard multiple shots. He packed things up and left the range.

Those are things for dimocraps. Yep, I knew you haven't tried being dimocrap.

lolol

I use regular Wonder Wads yes they are lubed, but very lightly. I don't know how thick they are.
Then I get mutton tallow and bees wax and melt it, and lube 'em up.

Chain firing is not urban legend. Absent some preventative measure (Wonder Wads or greasing the chambers) it is highly likely to occur.

A brace of Pietta reproduction Colt .36 Cal Police Pocket 5.5 inch

These are no longer manufactured by Pietta. Real nice guns. Always like the fluted cylinders.

we were down at crossfire ops place one day doing a little shooting. Gregg had a ruger old army.
he filled it full of powder then used a lead slug originally made for a 45.70 to fill it up. must of weighted 400grains.
didn't move to fast but it went "thunk" when it hit something.
My experience, what little there is, it would fire a ball rather fast, and i know it was accurate on pop cans out to 20-25 yards.

Sounds like the fit of the ball is very Important.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrfBOJnw06U&t=4s

I've heard of cases where the ball is tightly fit, even producing the ring of lead upon loading, and getting chain fires.

Yes and in this video he addresses this issue.

In addition even if one were to get the shaved ring it would not necessarily mean much as if there were a burr on the end of the cylinder the burr could shave the ball but still be a loose fit behind in the cylinder.
Possibly fooling the shooter into the belief that Because it was showing a ring of lead that the ball was a tight fit to the cylinder chamber when in fact it was only being shave by the burr around the edge.

I think that a slight chamfer would alleviate that issue.
I will see if I can research that issue and when I find Something I will post it.

I found where I read about the chamfering of the Cylinder.
It is on Page 2
I find all the Pages very interesting.But read them all,will really make a man put his thinking cap on !
A Long but very enlightening series of helpful information.

http://www.geojohn.org/BlackPowder/bps2.html

I just use Crisco, no wads. Melt it and pour it into an empty Elmer's glue squeeze bottle. Neat & easy!
Crisco washes off in hot tap water too.

Good idea.

All this stuff makes me want to keep my two Colts unfired...
Bob

Well, it seems you are absolutely correct on that. I guess the BP guys I've shot with, who like me have never seen a chain fire, must be doing it right to not have seen one happen.

There's a bunch of videos on Youtube of just such events happening. I have edited my post from last night in which I made the "urban legend" comment. Please excuse the brain fart.

You look at all the old pics of Civil War folk, 49er's, etc. and they never have any grease in the chambers. You just see round balls in the cylinders with the barrels usually pointed obliquely at the cameraman.

I've wondered the same thing..."urban legend" probably being as good a term as any, since it sure seems the bullet or ball makes a pretty good seal, having to shave it with the loading lever. However, I always use grease or a wonder wad. I don't bother with greasing the wonder wads though-that being the whole point of them. Much cleaner, IOW.

When i was a lad i went to the colorado history museum ( the old one that really displayed things( the civil war didplay had a clearly loaded revolver, there was no grease visible. I was old enough to notice but young enough to not realize the whole import. Later the balls were gon on that one. no idea about caps .
I had 2 holes go off once. Second went down the side. I have read they can get a spark through the caps too with powder on the cylinder. I still grease mine, lubriplate in a tube

EE, yes, I just use the regular Wonder Wads too, for the most part. I used to make my own from felt with beeswax-Crisco lube, but WW's are cheap and easy to get... and yes, MUCH cleaner. If you use "loose" lube in front of your balls, you end up with black grease everywhere.

I like the pic you posted. IIRC, that's George Maddox, of Quantrill's Raiders. I have that pic framed and hanging in my game room.

Maybe your pic shows the balls in the cylinders better than the one I posted. IIRC I've seen several of the balls and they don't appear greased in any way. Nor do I ever remember reading about the boys greasing their cylinders in the olden days of yore. I, like you and TRH, think it's still a good idea though as there is just too much modern evidence of chain fires.

It is George Maddox, Col. Quantrill's Chief of Scouts. He and his brother served under Quantrill and I believe he is buried in Joplin, Missouri. I've been to Quantrill's "grave" as well as Bloody Bill's, George Todd's and some others. General Jo Shelby is buried right in Kansas City, Missouri.



My beautiful wife looked Maddox up and I was mistaken. He is instead, buried in Missouri's capitol, Jefferson City. He was captured near the end of the war and then kidnapped to stand trial in Lawrence for his participation in the battle there. Surprisingly, he was acquitted and then lived about forty miles from my location in Nevada, Missouri (home of THE Bushwhacker Museum) and worked for the railroad before moving to Jeff City and being a Guard at the Missouri State Pen. Evidently, he died in 1906.

The Ruger Old Army will hold about 40 gr of BP and that's about it. As I recall, in John Taffin's book "Sixguns", he described getting his cylinders bored deeper so as to hold more powder, but I think if I was going to do that I'd just buy one of these cylinders:
http://www.classicballistx.com/our_cylinder.html

The old Colt Walker would hold 60+ gr of BP, though I doubt the repro guns from Uberti or others will hold that much powder.

EE... Well, dang, that's a better outcome to ol' George's story than I had heard! The book I have the pic from stated he did not survive the War. I always thought a fella that looked that good ought to have lived longer. Glad to know he did.

There is a guy in Texas (GB Enterprises) who will convert about anything (legally) to cartridges. He will convert your Walker to a semi-historically accurate 45 Colt or to a proprietary cartridge holding 60 grains of Black Powder, called the "45-60-250 Brimstone".

Well, who knows for sure, but there is a pic of his grave on Find-a-Grave. I don't know what happened to his brother Dick. A surprising number of Confederate Partisan Rangers did survive and as you may know, held reunions in and around Kansas City for many years. Some turned against Frank James when he went Republican. I don't remember for certain, in support of which Republican President, but I think Grover Cleveland. It was New Jersey's Grover Cleveland who finally ended Reconstruction in the South, IIRC.

Quantrill murdered women and children in Lawrence Kansas.

Says LaBoeuf. LOL.

And Rooster told him it was a damned lie. lol The historical record supports Rooster.

This guy loaded chambers with tight-fitting balls and shone a bore light through the nipple aperture. He saw light around the edges of some of these balls - from slightly assymetrical chambers.

Quite right.

Evidently that's it.

Amen.

Meanwhile from guys who did see chain fires. It has always been said in print that Berdan’s Sharpshooters in the War of Seccession were first issued .56 cal five shot Colt Revolving Rifles which they found highly unsatisfactory, in no small part due to fear of chain fires. Tho browsing around I can only find one second-hand reference to a shooter losing fingers of his support hand.

Mike, a fellow member at my old gun club in Wisconsin bought one of those repro revolving rifles in our early days of SASS matches. He only used it in one match, mostly because the rifle stages usually call for 10 shots, and of course his revolving carbine only held 6 shots, so he had to forfeit 4 misses on each stage.

But more significantly, the barrel-cylinder flash from his cylinder was so fierce it flame-cut into his jacket sleeve and burned his supporting forearm. He eventually found he could shoot it with a heavy piece of saddle leather around his forearm, but that burn took a lot of the joy out of shooting that thing.

I would damn sure never shoot one of those Colt's Revolving Rifles without it being highly greased. Now that you mention it, I HAVE read of chain fires resulting in digit loss from the old days.

Color me jealous! 🤠

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yroLHtjFowI

Mike Belleveau has a lot of pretty good BP videos on Youtube. He knows his stuff. That's a good one!

FWIW, he demonstrates in this video how easy it is to switch out cylinders on the Remington New Army. I have a couple spare cylinders for mine, and it does make for quick "reloads".... however, the Remington's cylinder binds up with soot much faster than the open-top Colt revolvers do. I've rarely been able to fire more than 3 cylinders worth out of my New Army's without having to disassemble and do a fast clean-and-lube job to get them back into action. It's a pain in the butt to do during a match, which is why I switched to the Colt clones.

Have you tried putting 3 or 4 shallow grooves on the top and bottom of the base pin with a file to hold more lube ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbrJ95NapjY&t=33s

Mod for base pin in link above