I recently was going through some old letters I had written to my folks back in '69.

My Dad, a sea going Marine had manned a 20 mm onboard CV11 Intrepid during "Divine Wind" attacks in the S. Pacific and asked about us encountering enemy AAA during our CAS missions.

Guess the two tail #'s I crewed as gunner flew under a protection order from above as best as I can call it, having been mostly free of holes not inherent to the airframes for over ten months.

We were lucky compared to other crews I trained with losing several to the NVA's deadly "Flak Traps ". One can't say enough about the courage of our Air Rescue and Recovery troops as well as those that covered their 6..


FLACK TRAPS

By John T. Correll
May 10, 2008

On the afternoon of Nov. 8, 1967, a 12-man team of American and South Vietnamese soldiers returning from a secret road-watch and reconnaissance mission on the Ho Chi Minh Trail was ambushed and mauled by a North Vietnamese Army battalion.

The team was assigned to Military Assistance Command Vietnam’s “Studies and Observation Group.” The name was intentionally vague. MACV/SOG was an unconventional warfare task force that had been conducting cross-border operations in the Laotian Panhandle—where the United States did not admit it had any military forces—since October 1965.

Some contemporary reports give the location of the ambush as Vietnam’s Quang Tri Province, but the actual site was a mountainside, surrounded by dense jungle, a few miles inside Laos. It was not far from the US Marine Corps base at Khe Sanh, which lay to the northeast on the other side of the border.

At first, the soldiers thought they had run into a reinforced company, but it turned out to be the main body of an enemy battalion.

The team leader, a US Army Special Forces sergeant, called for help—just as the North Vietnamese expected him to do. They were setting up what was known as a “flak trap.”

In the Vietnam War, the United States made an unprecedented effort to rescue those shot down or in trouble in hostile territory. The North Vietnamese knew it, too, and took advantage of it. They often held back from finishing off the survivors of a crash or an attack, preferring to use the Americans as bait. Helicopters and other aircraft would be coming soon and the aircraft would make fat targets as they moved in for the rescue.

The first effort to pick up the SOG team was by a South Vietnamese Air Force H-34, escorted by a US Army UH-1B “Huey” gunship. The North Vietnamese held their fire as the two helicopters approached.

The Huey went in first and hosed down the surrounding area with rockets and guns. The enemy guns were silent until the H-34 pulled into position above the hillside and a sudden fusillade blew him out of the sky. The Huey attacked again, and again the ground fire stopped. The Huey pilot decided to try the rescue himself, and his helicopter was promptly shot down as well.

The NVA battalion could have made short work of the beleaguered patrol, but chose instead to wait for more aircraft to be drawn into the flak trap, which was still baited.

The second rescue force got there around midnight. There were two Air Force HH-3E “Jolly Green Giant” helicopters from Da Nang, an Air Force C-130 flare ship, and three Army helicopter gunships.

Flares from the C-130 lit up the whole area and the Hueys pounded the enemy positions with their rockets and guns. The first HH-3E, call sign Jolly Green 29, maneuvered into position on the slope and picked up two American soldiers and three South Vietnamese. However, enemy fire from a nearby ridge took its toll and Jolly Green 29 pulled away leaking fuel and hydraulic fluid and headed for an emergency landing at Khe Sanh, the closest airstrip.

The pilot of Jolly Green 29 advised the second helicopter, Jolly Green 26, to pull out. The ground fire on the mountainside was intense, and the enemy guns were too numerous for the Hueys to suppress. The Rescue Center agreed and told Jolly Green 26 to return to Da Nang although there were more survivors left on the ground.

The pilot of Jolly Green 26, Capt. Gerald O. Young, didn’t like that order. He talked it over with his crew and they all wanted to stay. Expressing the sentiments of them all, the copilot, Capt. Ralph W. Brower, said that “we’re airborne and hot to trot.” Young appealed the order to return and the Rescue Center authorized them to see what they could do.

Young, 37, had a lot of flying experience behind him. He had dropped out of high school and joined the Navy in 1947. In the Navy, he obtained a General Educational Development diploma and got a private pilot’s license. After a break in service, he again joined the Navy. In 1956, he moved over to the Air Force, where he earned his commission through the Aviation Cadets, went to flight training, and became a helicopter pilot. In August 1967, he was assigned to the 37th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron at Da Nang Air Base in South Vietnam. On Nov. 9, Young was on his 60th combat mission.

Jolly Green 26 went in fast, with the gunships strafing the jungle on both sides. It was a tricky hover. Young rested the right main wheel on the slope while holding the other two wheels in the air and avoiding rotor contact with the ground. Brower directed the gunship fire. The pararescue jumper, Sgt. Larry W. Maysey, hopped to the ground and lifted two American sergeants, both of them wounded, up to the flight engineer, SSgt. Eugene L. Clay, who pulled them aboard.

As Young applied power to lift off, enemy troops appeared at point-blank range and raked Jolly Green 26 with automatic weapons fire. A rifle-launched grenade struck the right engine, which caught fire and exploded. The big helicopter flipped over on its back, burst into flames, and crashed down the hillside into a ravine.

17 Hours

Young was suspended by his seat belt, hanging upside down, and his clothing was afire. He managed to kick out the right window, get out of his straps, and reach the ground. He rolled farther down the embankment and beat out the fire in his clothes. The burns already covered a fourth of his body.

He found another survivor, one of the Army sergeants, who had also been thrown clear. He was unconscious. Young put out the fire in the sergeant’s clothing with his bare hands. He tried to reach others in the wreckage, but was driven back by the heat.

About 3:30 a.m., two A-1Es, Sandy 07 and 08, arrived from a base in Thailand to direct the continuing rescue effort. At this point, at least seven Americans and South Vietnamese were still alive on the hillside.

According to Maj. Jimmy Kilbourne, the pilot of Sandy 07, the rescue team could not talk with Young on the radio because there were “three ‘beepers’ broadcasting on the emergency radio frequency, making voice contact with the survivors impossible. … The beepers blocked the voice transmissions.” The scene below was illuminated, Kilbourne said, by the three helicopters, which formed a “fiery triangle” within 100 yards of each other.

Sandy 07, who was directing the rescue team, decided to wait until first light and bring in more Sandys, fighters, and gunships before the next attempt. “The plan,” Kilbourne said, “was to go in early, locate the survivors, and draw enemy fire by flying low and slow over the area.” Sandy 07 would then put fire from gunships and fighters on the enemy positions and “escort the Jolly Green Giants in for the pickup while all four A-1Es formed a firing ‘daisy chain’ around them.”

At daybreak, Young came out of hiding long enough to fire a pen gun flare. He wanted to warn the Sandys that they were circling a flak trap. Sandy 07, making a low, slow pass, saw Young. The Sandys made about 40 passes, “trolling” for ground fire, but drew none.

At 7 a.m., Sandys 05 and 06 relieved Sandys 07 and 08, who were low on fuel. Sandy 05 spotted five survivors near the wreckage of one of the helicopters. Two hours had passed with no sign of the enemy, so the Sandys led Army and VNAF helicopters in for the pickup. They were not fired upon. Apparently, the enemy had pulled back for the night and had not yet returned. Sandy 05 was on the verge of sending in a Jolly Green to pick up Young and the sergeant when the North Vietnamese troops reappeared.

Young saw the enemy force approaching from the south. He hid the wounded man and decided he would lead the North Vietnamese away from the crash site if he could.

Injured and suffering from second and third degree burns, he drifted into shock from time to time. He used his survival maps to cover the worst of his burns.

“When enemy troops approached the crash scene, he led them away from the wounded sergeant hidden in the underbrush,” an Air Force historical summary said. “He took off through the brush, enemy troops following him. Young knew that the only way rescue helicopters would be able to reach the scene and recover any remaining survivors was if they could see and have time to operate without encountering enemy fire. Young was determined to give them that time by luring his pursuers farther and farther from the wreckage. In his condition, that meant almost certain capture or death. After stumbling for six miles, he eluded the North Vietnamese troops in pursuit.”

Young came to an open field, dragged himself out, signaled the helicopters circling overhead, and was picked up. He had been on the ground for 17 hours.

Medal of Honor

Back at the crash site, US and VNAF aircraft pounded the enemy with rockets, cannon, and machine gun fire. The NVA gunners got a piece of Sandy 07—who had since returned and resumed control—and kept on shooting.

Eventually, a 100-man ground party landed, remained overnight, rescued another survivor, picked up bodies, and destroyed ordnance on the Army gunship. The eight helicopters working the extraction had to avoid the flak trap, but they took no more losses.

Accounts vary of how many people got off the hillside. According to an article written in 1969 for Airman, the official magazine of the Air Force, by Sandy 07 pilot Kilbourne, “seven survivors and the remains of six men were recovered.” The bodies of Brower, Maysey, and Clay were not recovered.

Young was treated for his wounds at Da Nang and flown back to the United States for further treatment and skin grafts. He spent six months in hospitals recovering from burns before he returned to active duty.

The Medal of Honor was presented to Young by President Lyndon B. Johnson at the Pentagon, May 14, 1968, in ceremonies dedicating the Pentagon’s new Hall of Heroes. The other members of the Jolly Green 26 crew, Capt. Ralph W. Brower, SSgt. Eugene L. Clay, and Sgt. Larry W. Maysey, were awarded the Air Force Cross posthumously. The four Sandy pilots received the Silver Star.

I have a "Participation Trophy" from a similar but smaller engagement. I was also a secret society member of MACV/SOG and placed small teams on the ground in Cambodia to count trucks on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. Most of the time, our "exfils" or extractions of those teams went hot. Sometimes very hot, and often as baited traps. By '71 we no longer used Americans on those teams, but did use South Vietnamese, Montagnards, and even Chinese mercenaries. We carried a "robin" or translator of similar lineage to make communication possible with the team. Possible, but very difficult as often enough the translator could understand what the team said but had little or no ability to explain it to us in English - especially when things got really hot.

Anyway, the same drama play as described above was still going on regularly while I flew that mission. We lost about a third of those small teams. Some during hot extractions, some in botched inserts, and quite a few that we put down - and never heard from again. Hot extractions were often baited traps, either because the NVA had discovered the team but left them as bait or through what we always suspected was leaked intel.

Trolling for ground fire was one of the more effective but "interesting" techniques employed by guys like me in our Cessna SkySmashers.

I remember how these brave men and thousands others were treated after they returned home, makes me want to puke.

It's water down the Mekong long ago.

Brave men!

Having arrived in country on the tail end of the AC-47 missions we were somewhat restricted with a new set of engagement SOP's having lost a number of crews in previous years to the topic of this thread..Our last aircraft lost was Sept of '69 although we continued to fly into early 1970 before transitioning the remaining aircraft to VNAF. .Engagements during this time were solely up to threat assessments by ground commanders for pilots to weigh the risk for fixed wing intervention vs rotary, however many times it required throwing away all protocols committing every available asset to the fight as was presented in this article.

Our security briefs outlined specific details of letters home containing no references to squadrons,locations, air ops or associated info beneficial to the enemy..After going through a pile of letters I found one I wrote several days after our Hill 474 encounter with Jim ET Martin & company..Had to laugh with the vague description I gave of that night's adventure,

Got to dance that dance a few times. It weren’t fun.

Great stories, FlyboyFlem. Thanks for sharing.

My late older brother flew Huey’s in the delta country 69/70.

While duck hunting with him one day, we had several birds come into our set in flooded timber.
We knocked several down, but my brother just watched and was silent.
When I asked him what he thought of that (shooting the birds) he said - “It reminds me of flying into a hot pick up zone”.

I appreciate the OP’s article and really appreciate you VN Veterans 🇺🇸

I like learning first hand, thanks for teaching me.

I was in high school during those ops. I certainly knew the war was going on but I can’t believe I knew so little about what was REALLY going on.

I have a huge amount of respect, more like admiration, for guys like Rocky and Dan who gave us our targeting information. From 20K feet or more in a B-52, the places they worked were just a set of coordinates, or maybe, if we were lucky, a landmark of some sort for the Radar Nav (Bombardier) to aim at. Of course, the 37,500 pounds of high explosives each plane carried could do a massive amount of "urban renewal" if we got enough info to get on target. If it really, unquestionably needed to be destroyed RIGHT NOW, a 3-ship flight would hit the same target. That was 112,500 pounds of "Have A Bad Day" for the other side! We called that a "Gang Bang"!
Jerry

Well, I appreciated what you fellas did. Never once took fire from a grid you fellas sanitized. And I got some laffs now and then when I saw packs and boots/sandals and parts hanging from tree limbs.

Now you guys did it. My memories have been jogged! I have questions. Rocky, I think you have answered a question I have never been able to get answers for.
In the fall of 1968 I flew 40 Blind Bat missions with my crew on C-130's out of Ubon. Of course all of our missions were concentrated on the Ho Chi Minh trail looking for trucks with a starlight scope and furnishing light for the fighter/bomber acft. to destroy the trucks.
The main question is, that before each mission we had an Escape and Evasion briefing showing us the area we would be flaring that night. What got me, is every night we looked at fresh pictures of the area we were going to and what damage had been done the night before or recently. I always wonder who took those pictures. I think I now know or think I know how those people got there etc.
Also, one night when we flew the late mission ( midnight to daylight), we got called to a nearby area (Barrel Roll) I think to flare for some English speaking guys that were surrounded by the enemy. We stayed on station and provided light until we ran out of flares ---300+, 27 lb ,3'ft.magnesium 2 million candle power flares, and were running low on fuel and it was almost daylight. We headed straight back to Ubon in daylight and one of the engines quit, and the low fuel lights were on.
We made it to Ubon on 3 engines and ran out of fuel while taxiing to our parking spot. We all went to the snack bar and had beer and scrambled eggs for breakfast.
So, the main question is, do you know who took the pictures on the ground? Also, years later when I had a gun shop, I met a guy that was a semi professional photographer
and he said he was in the Peace Corp in Cambodia or Laos during the war. I accused him of being CIA or something similar and he wouldn't give me a straight answer.
What do you think?
Sorry about the long post, but I have never met anybody that knows what I am talking about.

Ken Viet Nam --1967-1970 C-130 A's and C-130 E's

It wouldn't surprise me if at least some of those photos came from the SR-71's that "weren't there" for many years at Kadena AFB Okinawa. From 1970-72 when I was on B-52 flying status as an electronic maintenance REMF, we could usually figure out where the SR's were going by how many KC-135Q tankers we launched. If they were headed across several countries and planning to land in Turkey that day, we only launched three tankers. On a local run, with repeated sorties over Viet Nam and areas nearby, we would launch NINE tankers! Getting down low and slow enough to refuel and then getting back up to SAM-proof altitude and speed for another photo run took a massive amount of fuel. The JP-7 that the Blackbird ran and the JP-4 to run the tanker's engines couldn't be mixed. The Q models had special fuel manifolds to keep them separated. I've also got a good friend who flew photo recon in an F-4 as a Marine aviator. His call sign was "N-N"- - - - -"Nutty Ned". I've always believed that anybody willing to strap a blowtorch on his butt and let people shoot at him has got to be a certifiable nutcase- - - - -I'm glad they're on our side!
Jerry

I knew a pilot from my home town that flew KC-135's out of Kadena while I was stationed at Naha. That was in 67,68, & 69.
I do think some of the pictures were taken from the SR-71s. but most of them were ground level with dead drivers in them . Some drivers were chained to the steering column.
There where KC's at CCK when I was stationed there also.

Ken those photos may well have come from a team like those we inserted. In that timeframe, they could have been US Green Berets, with a couple of "little guys" along to interrogate any survivors. In practice, they'd be inserted a few miles away and a couple days ahead of time. Immediately after the airstrike, they'd sneak in, do a Bomb Damage Assessment, take any living prisoner and quickly sneak back to their insert site or a different site for extraction.

In my time there, we no longer used US assets in Cambodia (the Prez had stated firmly that we had no US in Cambodia - but we sure had guys like me OVER it!) I inserted teams of five to seven guys, who then moved to some part of the HCMT to verify it was in use or not at that time. If it was, they collected data, counted trucks, listened to NVA conversations, took photos, but stayed hidden. We would fly cover for them every day, and they'd make interim reports in code to the little guy in my right seat. After a number of says, they'd withdraw to be extracted. That assumes they had not been discovered, of course.

At that point, it became a search and rescue op for me. They'd transmit (in code again) where they thought they were, and I'd have to find them without arousing the interest of the NVA by circling any one spot. Once I did, I'd call in Vietnamese helicopters (the REALLY brave guys in all this) and pick them up. If the NVA got wind of all this and had the team surrounded, it became a flak trap and a firefight. In support of the Vietnamese KingBee helos, we also had Green Hornets from the 20th Special Ops flying twin-engine N-model Hueys as gun ships (rockets and GE miniguns both sides).

Sometimes we got the teams out, and sometimes not. KingBees always took hits in hot extracts, casualties were common, and we lost a couple of them. All of us took hits on some bad ones.

Same here. Didn't like how returning servicemen were treated, although growing up in OK, we didn't have, or at least I didn't see a lot of the morons who were on full display on the coasts.

Thank you all for the work you did and the service to our country.

Hats off to all you guys who went over there. I served but never at the tip end of the spear like you. I am humbled and thankful for what you did.

Rocky we were never worked by any FAC that I recall, maybe earlier in the war but being "children of the night" as we were sometimes called most AAA threats were primarily daylight from mobile ZSU 24's and their 23mm cannons. The big guns 37 & 57 mm were mainly up North around Hanoi...

However, in my experiences we feared small arms AK fire because of our low altitude or an occasional stunt shooter flinging an RPG hail Mary but the deadliest adversary was the 12.7 mm heavy machine guns which could rip you open in a split second..

Gunship missions could be quite boring at times burning up gas and just making yourself know to the bad guys..Case in point we were called in to provide CAS for many special forces base camps at sundown illuminating their perimeters but never firing a shot all through the night..

There were night FACs on rocket patrol around some bases, and in fact I flew a couple of night "team cover" missions and one very ill-fated night parachute team insert! The Nail FACs flying out of Thailand also flew night FAC missions over the Trail in Laos, but those are about all.

We quickly abandoned our night missions for several reasons. We flew them with two pilots, an observer, full fuel tanks, full rockets and a flare rack - which made us almost 25% over maximum allowable takeoff weight. THOSE were scary takeoffs. Second, our airfield was closed at night, meaning we had to land on a blacked-out runway - it was like descending into a black pit and was extremely dangerous. Lastly, since the rescue helos couldn't fly at night, there was absolutely nothing we could if a team went hot except listen to them die.

The night parachute fiasco was "another agency" (ahem) that had the hots to do something out there, and since it was our sandbox, we had to have a plane there. The radio frequencies got screwed up, I never did contact them, and we later learned that they got scared and dropped the team from a higher altitude - ABOVE me! They probably fell all around me in the dark. Two of them got skewered on tree limbs, and we never learned what happened to the rest of them, but it could not have been good.

Anyway, the night did in fact belong to the NVA. That was the real impetus to us developing night vision for individual troops, not just "search" devices like Starlight Scopes.

The price of freedom, is a value the protected shall never know. Thanks for having brass balls, gents...hope this thread keeps going...and devoid of the ingrates...

Sheesh!

Chills... dammit that hit home.

Writing this stuff also has me reliving it in my mind, of course. And it scares the poop out of me worse than when I was doing it.

LOL! You are getting a clue as to how crazy it sounds to the rest of us!

Maybe, but I get it double-barreled!

Tyrone, maybe a clue, maybe the cold sweats at 3 in the morning. Stuff I wrote on the topic in days past was a regurgitation that left me more at peace, nothing more. Life as the designated bait in a team effort was never boring.

I loved the smell of napalm....anytime.

Amen, Dan. Writing about it was the catharsis that ended my long period of PTSD or whatever it was.

Love the stories, always enjoy hearing the stories from you guys. I'm curious if any of you flew any ops near Firebase Ripcord in 1970?

http://wordpress.ripcordassociation.com/facts-about-ripcord/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fire_Support_Base_Ripcord

Nope. My time in hell was Feb to Dec '71.

Another interesting mission I was involved in was maintaining a somewhat experimental air drop system for C-130's known as AWADS. "All Weather Air Drop System". It used what was essentially a bomb-navigation system for cargo, where a ground based controller projected a signal similar to an instrument landing system beam. The computer equipment on the supply bird would intercept the signal, compute the plane's altitude and ground speed, and punch the cargo out of the back of the plane at the appropriate time. It was supposed to be able to hit a designated drop zone 100 yards in diameter, even if the supply ship couldn't see the ground. We had our own little operating area, tucked away near the end of the runway at U-Tapao Thailand with barracks, maintenance facilities, and even our own beer bar. The main ops were run from Clark AFB Philippines, with aircrews and maintenance people on 60 day TDY's to Thailand. One advantage to that arrangement was a steady supply of San Miguel beer, brought in on the weekly resupply plane! We were supposedly dropping food and ammo to guys who "weren't there" outside of Viet Nam. We referred to ourselves as the "Cambodian Gunrunners"- - - - -one load of rice, three loads of ammo!

Years later I was shooting the bull with a friend who had been a member of some sort of black ops team, doing super secret spook stuff in places they weren't supposed to be, and I happened to mention those AWADS flights. He commented "So you were the guys who missed the drop zone on a regular basis!" Small world!
Jerry

Yep. My unit had quite a bit to do with that fracas and we lost some good boys in the process. I rotated back to the states just about the time it reached a full boil.

The world is indeed tiny, HR. I mentioned the Green Hornets of the 20th Special Ops Squadron up above. VERY small unit, VERY covert, as were we. One day a while back, I struck up a casual conversation with a couple walking past my driveway. Both Air Force. Both pilots. Both 'Nam. Where at? "Nowhere you've heard of" we both said. "Ban Me Thuot." Long stares. He was a Green Hornet. A year before me, but still...

Jerry, in my experience the AWADS crews were stunningly precise with placement. The only miss I saw was intended for the top of a razorback ridge and was off about 50 meters. It landed on the slope over a NVA underground field hospital. Our grunts stopped counting bodies in the north side of 400.

Small indeed! When I took my Marine grandson to the USAF museum at Wright-Patterson, I showed him the B-52D on display there. I remember working on that plane when it was at Okinawa- - - -remembered the tail number. There was a diagram showing the battle damage repairs that had been made on the plane- - - -some of which I remember being done by the sheet metal guys at Kadena. About a year later, I met the next door neighbor of my sis-in-law in Dayton Ohio whose late husband had been a navigator on that plane!
Jerry

Dan, did you ever see a C-130 do a LAPES run? ("Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System") The idea was to fly low over an area too shot-up to actually land, and yank the cargo out of the back of the plane with a parachute. One pilot I knew who ran those missions claimed he couldn't fly low enough with the landing gear down, so they always went in gear up, and usually under fire, to make the drop. Guys like that probably need a wheelbarrow to carry their balls around with!
Jerry

Wasn't me I flew my last missions a month prior to Ripcord but could have been several of our remaining aircraft since we had three at Phucat when I left.. Two were constantly up on airborne night watch and the third was on the ground for standby alert perimeter defense if needed however there were several 119's just activated so trading tail #'s. with our sister base at Pleiku was SOP of that timeline.

Jerry, more than a few times. Extra large wheelbarrow.

One of the evolutions of the war came to pass with the onset of the Spring Offensive in ‘72. The nature of our ops changed dramatically and the maneuvering that led to AA traps was replaced with full blown in-your-face use of AA and AAA throughout SVN. 12.7, 23 & 37mm augmented by SA7 missiles was the new deal. If you came home without green stains in your skids you were flying too high.

One of my buddies took out a ZSU23-2 on his own with an OH6 and a minigun. Any of you fellas that know anything about the ZSU’s capability will understand that what he did was impossible. At least that’s what Nguyên thought.

When I first go to Naha I would be out working --or whatever on my plane (C-130 A model) tail number 56-475, while the acft crews were practicing their LAPES drops between the active runway and the taxi way . Some of the time they used old surplus battle damaged Jeeps from Viet Nam . I think most had gear down, but it was neat to watch.
Later on in Jan 68 (Tet), I talked the flight crew into letting me tag along on a days missions out of Cam Ranh Bay. I had no idea what to expect, but I got in on one LAPES drop at Katum and several moving off-loads at several other bases . Just lowered the ramp and pushed the pallets of 105's w/fuses off on the run while taxiing.
I didn't know it then, but that day was the start of the historic Tet Offensive and everywhere we went was under attack. The last mission of the day was back at Katum going in for an assault landing to off load more ammo the normal way. We got hit with 13 rounds of 30 cal. ammo that I saw coming out of the jungle which was pretty common, but this time a round went right through one of the main tanks on the left wing. We landed and got off-loaded while JP-4 was running on the ground. My crew chief and I plugged the hole with some dowels we stole from the fuel cell shop , and then had to transfer fuel from the other side(wing) to level the plane. Of course we had to run the GTC (gas turbine compressor) for power. Six hundred degree exhaust blowing over a huge pool of fuel made it way more interesting.
Anyway, the last mission of the day was flying back to Cam Ranh Bay and get the fuel leak fixed for a one time flight back to Okinawa.
Again, I apologize for getting so long winded, but the things that happened in my 33 months over there didn't scare me a bit then, but after all of these years, it is good to talk to somebody about what I did that might have an idea what I am talking about.
Thanks for listening,
Ken

Gutsy move Cloaking device ?

Ken, I was maintaining SAC aircraft at Kadena from early 1970 to late 72. My daughter was born there. It used to rattle her cage when I told people I had a kid made in Japan! It's possible we might have been on Okinawa at about the same time. Just a bit of Okinawa trivia- - - - -my grandfather's younger brother died on the beach there in 1945- - - -caught a piece of shrapnel in the forehead. I got there 25 years later.
Jerry

Thank you for your service Dan. My dad was on Ripcord with C/2-506th and always spoke highly of the air crews that supported them...

My younger brother used to parachute into Laos as part of a two or three man observation team. He was the communication component. After bailing out of a C119, they would spend a week or longer watching the roads and trails. If something significant came along, they would call for a B52 strike.
Extraction was usually by helicopter. Sometimes by a Fixed wing craft. Exciting times.

For those not up on weaponry, the ZSU23-2 was a towed anti-aircraft weapon sporting two 23mm cannon with a normal rate of fire of 400 rounds per minute, each. It could be deployed from towed to firing in less than a minute, and had a range to two kilometers - or surface to about 6,000 feet altitude. Deadly. We called it "The Golden Hose" because the tracers formed a near solid stream of yellow-orange fire in the sky.

To get one with a helo, you'd have to zoom in from behind and pop up to shoot before they could swing the guns around. IF they hadn't heard you coming.

When I took my AIT at Fort Rucker (67A10)they told us that a basic helicopter mechanic was nothing but a door gunner in Nam..It horrified us and the stories told were no better..Glad I never had to go.

Small world hey? Your dad had a better seat, trust me. The view from the top was spectacular.

Woody, he had bullet proof balls We called him The Baby Killer, only because he never had to shave. He was special, and I mean that in a good way. There might have been more deadly scout pilots during his tour but I never heard the tales.

The first few minutes of this video is artillery on Ripcord softening up Hill 1000 on 08Jul1970. A little while later in the day, my dad and what was left of C/2-506 went up the hill and things didn't turn out too good for them...

Dan one of my pilots I briefly flew with had similar talents, a LTC who was reactivated for the gunship program early on.during R&D ...Having flown C-47's during Korea we always kidded him about his John Wayne style of flying and didn't have to remind him the "A" proceeding C-47 meant attack. One night shortly after takeoff we had an engine overheating but he pressed on,we dropped flares,hung around long enough for help to arrive then diverted to Pleiku with a feathered prop.

Great vid, these high quality accounts are priceless !

Thanks to all of you, I come to Fire because of you.

One day, all of us "Nammies" here on the 'Fire need to have a get-together and "There I was..." fest.

DEADLY for low fliers. Hopefully Pugs (or resident ECM expert) will chime in, but it's millimeter-wave radar makes it almost impossible to Jam...

We better hurry Rocky Mr.G. Reaper is closing on our six !

Jorge, I think it was the ZSU23-4 that was radar-aimed. The dash2 was optical and mechanical - but still a mudderfooker.

FF, may I suggest something mid-country and next summer? Kansas City BBQ, beer, and BS!

And it should be recorded and video'd.

I feel like a freshman who's been allowed to listen to a bunch of All Americans talk about their positions. I hope this thread lives a long time.

The -2 did not use radar. Dunno they brought any of the -4s to the party down south.

Don't think so, either, Dan. I was sent out twice to "verify" reported sites of a ZSU23-4 on one mission and a 37mm site on another. Both times, I elected to go in "crop duster" style at five feet and all I could get out of my Oscar Douche. Luckily, both times, they had either been moved or the intel was bad. One as likely as the other. We did know there were -2 variants as far south as mid-Cambodia, though.

I've hosted an annual informal shootfest over Memorial Day Weekend for members of an outdoor website where I'm no longer welcome, for the past 15 years. The shoot is still happening, even if a few donkeyhole moderators aren't invited. Consider this to be an official invitation to any and all of my fellow vets on the fire! We start gathering at my farm in south central Tennessee about mid-week, and the "official" shoot is on Saturday. I think the record attendance was 56 people one year. There's lots of room for tent camping or self-contained RV's and discounted accommodations are available at a nearby motel. We have a "campfire circle" with adult beverages and all sorts of jackassery included on Saturday night after the range closes! Obviously, the range (up to 300 yards) is a "no alcohol zone".
Jerry

Well, a pic of the 23-2. The important parts anyway. The barrels are aligned and it is a small pic, so it isn't obvious it was a twin. The whole package was more than a Huey could lift so they blew the turret and brought back the important parts.

The guns were set in a concrete slab in front of the 2/17th ACS Ops Center.

And for the record, I'd be tickled chittless to get together with you fellas.

Wonderful invite, Jerry, but I'm thinking more of a "just us" dozen or so somewhere. Unless I'm outvoted, in which case, I'd be delighted.

I'm up for either one- - - - -The F-4 recon cameraman I mentioned is a regular at the shoot I host, and there are a few others from the VN era who attend. If a smaller, more veteran-oriented meeting happens, count me in! I make a lot of Patriot Guard Rider escort missions on my elderly Harley soft tail, but it's always more fun when the guest of honor is still breathing!
Jerry

Old souvenirs from days gone by...



Of course there's always a flip side, right?


Anyone that's wondered what a 12.7mm will do to a chopper here's some graphics. First thing to keep in mind is the bullet does not slow down as it passes thru a LOH, or anything else for that matter.

If you look closely you will see the first contact hole and the exit. The gray plate beside the cockpit opening is armor plate and it works dandy with .30 caliber stuff. It just got nicked here and the rather remarkable aspect of all of this is neither the pilot or gunner in the back cabin were injured.


Same aircraft, a hit thru the main rotor blade. Where it penetrated contains a steel D spar that runs the length of the blade. Fella came within a wee small step of losing that half of the blade and nobody could understand a word he said on the flight back due to the violent vibrations that resulted. We could hear him 10 miles out however.


Sorry to say that the pilot, our platoon leader, and one of my favorite gunners were killed during action related to the siege of FSB Ripcord. Names were Sensing and Staton for the record.

In my first in-country assignment, with the 173rd Airborne, one of our guys went up on a "familiarization" flight with an Army O-1 artillery spotter (a kind of almost FAC) and took three hits from a 12.7mm. Two in the left wing, and one through the right wing flap. One on either side of him in the back seat, in other words. The back seat in an Army O-1 is a canvas sling. He did not volunteer for that kind of ride again.

Would this gathering be open to Grunts or is it fly boys only?

Osky

Sounds like the cyclic rate of the 12.7 saved his life!

Sometimes mechanical or electrical malfunctions can be just as deadly as ground fire. A B-52D has two wing-mounted fuel tanks, in between the outboard engine nacelles and the wingtip. Those tanks can be jettisoned with explosive bolts if necessary. About halfway from Okinawa to the target area on a bombing mission, the starboard wing tank on one of our birds suddenly departed the plane- - - -full of fuel. That made the other wing a few thousand pounds heavy, and the pilots did some fancy flying to avoid getting upside down. OK- - - -we've got plenty of fuel to get home, once we jettison the bomb load and kill a few fish- - - -let's pickle the other tank and get the weight and balance back in the ballpark! Nope- - - - -that one won't go! They flew for quite a while with both pilots holding hard right wheel and all the trim they could crank in to keep the bird wings level while they transferred fuel out of the remaining drop tank. After landing safely back at Kadena, they discovered the cause of the problem. There was about a 4-foot hole in the right wing where an exhaust turbine-driven hydraulic pump used to be. It seems that in the process of blowing up the hydraulic pack, the wires to the drop tank had gotten shorted together and initiated the drop sequence and in the process, it had disabled the rest of the drop circuits for the other tank.

Then there was another BUF that got home with the right front wheel well on fire, couldn't lower that landing gear, and made a 3-wheel landing instead of 4. The well-cooked remains of a rat were found in a wire harness in that area of the fuselage!
Jerry

Osky, welcome aboard!

Flak Traps took a number of different forms as one might imagine. The dinks were a cunning and scurrilous lot.

FSB Rendezvous sat at the end of a dirt road that connected the A Shau Valley with Hue and overlooked the central portion of the valley. We flew over it routinely to and from missions in that area of operations. So one day out of the blue, one of the birds gets plinked with a 12.7mm. One shot, one hit. No idea where it came from in specific terms, so we carried on. Time passed and over the course of a month or so two more birds got the same treatment while flying about 3,000' above ground level. The jerk behind the trigger was hot, no doubt about it.

The day came where it was decided to find this little miscreant and put an end to the frivolities. I was the bait. Before takeoff I recalled a cautionary tale my brother had related about one of his classmates in school who had decided to be a rotorhead and wound up flying C model Huey gunships and had done the same thing. He got shot down but survived....barely. Well, I figured we were not flying stuff from the Jurassic Era and I was AIR CAV(!) and therefore bullet proof.

Over Rendezvous I broke formation and spiraled down to the deck over the abandoned site and broke north up a ridge. My intention was to make a low fast pass over the high terrain then work the lower elevations if nothing happened. Hey, something happened. I had just cleared the little knob hill just north of the fire base and there was a steep drop into a deep narrow valley on the far side. A battalion strong element of NVA opened up on me. AK's, RPD's, and a 12.7 from my 4 o'clock. I cannot describe the volume of fire other than to say there was a solid wall of tracers ahead and to my right. I clicked into slow motion reality and saw my gunner lean out and start zapping dinks, one after another as I screamed "Taking Fire!" to the gun birds and broke left down the hill. I knew, without a shadow of doubt that we were both dead men.

Then a very curious thing happened. They quit shooting. Neither of us could talk for a moment, I looked back over my shoulder and saw he was OK and as I started climbing back to altitude a very familiar voice chimed in on UHF. It was one of the Bilk FACs and he asked if he could be of help. Yes, those guys had a very dry wit, I kid you not. Rocky won't deny it.

Well, it turned out that Mr. Bilk had a section of 4 F4's coming off a mission abort in Laos with a full bomb load and since they were going to dump it anyway before landing at DaNang, did we have a target?

The Blue Angels would have been proud. Bilk marked the target with a WP rocket and the boys made a straight in approach in the most lovely diamond formation you ever saw. You see, they were Bingo on fuel and weren't hanging around to talk about it. The entire flight pickled their bombs as one at the same time. I'm talking about 12,000# of ordinance from each plane in the most divine formation imaginable. After the drop they climbed straight ahead without changing course.

We were circling about 6-7 klicks to the southwest and when that load detonated it felt like someone had bitch slapped me, that's how strong the concussion was. Holy nuclear shockwave!

Well, the end of the party had me take a stroll thru the carnage, a leisurely stroll I might add. Took no fire at all. Guns wanted a body count and I told him he was out of luck. Weren't nothing left except parts. Stuff hanging in nearby trees, like legs etc. Back packs doing the same. It was a mess wiped clean. One shot Charlie was never heard from again, nor did we ever take any fire from the vicinity of FSB Rendezvous. I washed my flight suit twice after we got back to base. We did not get hit, not a single time.

People always wonder why Army aviators did what they did - in my case (and I was just little younger than the average helicopter pilot) I can definitely blame it on the vagaries of youth - the attached fifty-year old picture was taken the month before I left for Vietnam - 19 years old and full of piss and vinegar - and typical of the "high school to flight school" warrant officer flight program back in those days. Super vision and reflexes are what saved my ass when what limited good sense I did possess was constantly overcome by peer pressure and that overriding sense of obligation to do all you possibly can to get your buds out of the [bleep]. Don't get me wrong - I'm not patting myself on the back; my point is that I honestly don't know if I could have done the same if I had been 5 or 6 years older.

Thanks fellas for all your input !

Many of you remember these pics and a few of you were a big part of our reunion.

I brought back a box full of memorabilia, had a blanket made from a chute however my most prized possession was finding my war brother Jim [ ET ] Martin here on the Fire..

For those of you who don't know me Jim & I shared an evening on and above Hill 474 in early 1970..Thanks to brother Keith [ EH76 ] he put together the most memorable reunion hunt two old soldiers could ask for..

Several of you that joined us are still here posting, I will always cherish this short time we shared !


Our first meeting at the airport got a little misty even for the gal that was so gracious to take our pictures.



From another lifetime..Jim's the kool dude in the middle.


Jim and I had several of these 7.62 cases I had saved and marked from that night's engagement engraved.




I loaded several cases,borrowed a 308 then Jim & I took our antelope with the very cases shot that night in 1970..

Our lives came full circle, I thank all those involved for all the hard work to make this happen..



One of the hardest goodbyes of my life putting him on the plane back to NY.

My Dad got 2 books sometime after WWII - a company book and a division book. They are each histories of the respective unit's actions during the war written by involved officers.

Did you Nam vets get anything like that?

Don't know about the rest of the guys but I received nothing except a notification at one morning's ops brief I was no longer attached to a tail number then 48 hours later I was in Japan headed stateside .

Tyrone, I have one from the 1st Cav but not the 101st.

These are fairly common but written many years later; for instance there is a 5-volumn history of the Air Force C-7 Caribous but only written within the last few years. If you look around on ebay or Amazon you can find quite a few other unit histories. The Air Force Office of History published several highly detailed books describing different aspects of Air Force operations in Vietnam, you can still occasionally find these on ebay. For instance, there is one on the gunship ops and another on tactical airlift.

Nothing like that in the Air Force.

To this day, even though it was finally declassified, there is no official record of the mission we operated while attached to MACV/SOG. We didn't exist then, and therefore there's no record of it at all. One of our commanders is putting together a history of it, but he may never finish because all of it was so tightly compartmentalized that even he can't ferret out many details. My second book is perhaps the closest we're going to get, and it is written from a single point of reference with no bigger picture - and all the people's names are changed besides.

I got to tag along on one of those reunions- - - -Dad located his top turret gunner from his B-17 crew, and they spent a couple of days together in Oregon in the late 1980's. Somewhere stashed away on a photo CD I've got pics of them at the "Bomber" restaurant museum in Portland, where the remains of a B-17 was on display over a gas station for many years. It was the first time they had been together since the mid-1940's. They're both gone now.
Jerry

I was just thinking about that. Your situation was totally different than an Army division or even company. It's not like you and 200+ of your friends went to one place and accomplished one objective. It was usually just you working with a few other people whom you may not have had much contact with beyond the one mission. Odds in your case aren't good that even one person is not only going to know enough, but be motivated and talented enough to write about the big picture. The fact that we've had you to write anything is pretty much a miracle.

You're probably right. When I worked with the 173rd Airborne, there were only four of us FACs. At Ban Me Thuot, six. And we always worked alone. At BMT, that meant 100 miles deep into Cambodia, often out of radio contact, and dawdling over a few thousand of our best enemies!

Miracle might apply.

I’m surprised there’s no mention of “Unit History” books for you guys.

My late brother flew out of Vinh Long airfield, south of Saigon for the 114 AHC. Red Knights.
I have of unit history book titled “Knights over the Delta. Vietnam 1963-72.
It tells the history of course and a lot of stories from those that were there.

I’m aware that some of you were involved in operations that were/are classified and therefore no written word retained to tell your stories. That’s a shame.

When my son returned from Iraq, I handed him a “book”.... copies of every email conversation we had during that time plus any newspaper clippings regarding his units deployment. They were Oregon National Guard.

A book called “The Devils Sandbox” was written detailing their tour in detail. He has that, too and a sizable pile of pictures he took. So someday, his two boys (or anyone that’s interested) can see the pictures and read about his entire tour as it happened.

I just re-read the whole thread. It's a damn shame that the Great Covidiocy prevented us from even planning a "Nammies Getogether" But if any of you are interested, I'd be delighted to hear options. I'll still propose a mid-country place like Kansas City - or someplace else that hasn't gone woke.

I'd consider looking into hosting it here in Ogden. We have Hill AF and the excellent museum there, plus the Browning Museum for times when we aren't BSing. Flights into SLC are plentiful and you can ride the trains from the airport to Ogden if you don't rent a car.

Burns can be your guest speaker...Then we can set him on fire...

Tag for later reading

In Honor of Viet Nam Veterans Day yesterday I'd like to post a thread that's related to this one where EvilTwin <ET> tells the story how FlyboyFlem ah, assisted ET and his fellow soldiers.

When I read this years ago <2011> I was awestruck by what you Soldiers did in Viet Nam. Bless All of you. I did not serve as I was a too young punk at the time and was never directed to the service by parents and so forth.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/12579839/1

Rocky, thanks for bringing this thread to the top again. I really enjoyed reading through it.

Thanks to all of you brave men and to your missing comrades for your service and sacrifices.

I’m interested, but have much background noise at present. Will join up with y’all if I can.

Rocky, after surviving six days in intensive care with Covid blood clots in both lungs almost two years ago, I'd love to be part of a meet & greet somewhere in reasonable driving distance of middle Tennessee. I'm not exactly 100% since then, but things are almost back to normal. Let's keep this thread going, or start a new one dedicated to making something happen before many more of us end up on the brown side of the grass.

I just read this whole thread. Outstanding guys. You all have my complete admiration and gratitude for all you've been through and done. I hope you can all get together soon and pull a few corks. The world would be a much lesser place without you all in it. God bless.

Bob

I feel honored just to have the ability to even read this thread, You guys that were in the deep of these operations,

My hats off to you, True warriors.

Best thread in a long time, Thank you.

Very forward conversation. Those I have known who were there only spoke bits and pieces; then only to friends. I am of your generation but did not serve. I also did not dishonor those who did. Never would and never will. In the deep South I suppose it was quite different than some other places. The long hairs and partiers I hung around with worked for a living, shot guns, hunted and fished. We listened to rock music, drank beer, ate beans greens and cornbread. No one I was around even considered being the kind of [bleep] that would give chit to warriors. Hell, we partied together.

Thank you all, and your partners, for what you gave. If ever we’re together I’ll shine your shoes.

About that "bits and pieces" comment...

It is true of all wars, but everyone's experience is unique. Each of us was but one pixel in the big picture. None of us can answer questions like "Was it worth it?" or "What was it all about?" We can only describe what happened to us.

I read somewhere that only about 10% of the people who went to Vietnam actually saw combat. If that's true, it is still very misleading. There were no battle lines in Vietnam, no "rear areas" and nowhere that was truly safe. The enemy could and did strike anywhere, from major engagements down to some cute little kid dropping a grenade into your jeep or the barber slitting your throat (both of which happened at one of my duty stations.) Rockets and artillery could strike anywhere at any time. Booby traps were everywhere. If you were there, you had reason to be fearful.

Many thanks to all of you guys for what you did. My Weekend at Padre Island when Rocky was there is one of my cherrished memories. Miles

Mine too, Miles.

Hard facts right there, and well said. I can't count the number of times I wound up face down in the dirt at 0'dark thirty to the sound of sirens or WHUMP of incoming artillery. And I know a fella that shot one of those "cute little kids" who blew up a few seconds later. And he shot the fella that gave the kid the grenade too. There was no secure ground anywhere.

It seems that we haven't learned much about our real enemies over the past couple of hundred years. The battles of the future aren't likely to happen halfway around the world. I wonder if some of our descendants will discuss what happened in Chicago, Houston, St. Louis, San Francisco, Portland, Austin, Atlanta, Washington DC, and a few other hellholes right here at home? Those of us who went to southeast Asia might have accomplished more if we'd stayed home and dealt with the politicians who hung us out to dry, declared "victory", and slunk away like the jackals that they were (and still are). Which was the worse defeat- - - -Saigon, or Afghanistan half a century later?

I have long maintained that we did win in Vietnam. Today, Vietnam has a roaring economy based on free enterprise. They are still nominally Commie, but it is capitalist in practice.

Rocky is correct. The Paris Peace Accords were signed in '73. The north ignored the accords and attacked the south after we had vacated the affair. The "loss", if you want to call it that, rests on the shoulders of what was then the South's leadership. I note the Vietnamese and Chinese have been at each other's throats for many, many years. Based on my readings this goes back to around 1,000 years ago. The Chinks have not prevailed, and in point of fact failed again shortly after the fall of the South. Today's Vietnam is much more oriented to a Capitalist endeavors than Commie.

Double FACT.

They used to have a reunion in Indiana for members of the Green Hornets and other units. We attended this event with my wife’s immediate family. My father-in-law Lt Col D. E. Oldenburg (then Major Oldenburg) was a Huey gunship pilot in 68-69 flying with Operation Pony Express which provided arial gunnery support of team insertions and extractions of US special forces and Montagnard teams with the 20th SOS 14th Special Operations Wing. Their mission has since been declassified, and in the meantime (over 30 years since I first met him) he didn’t talk about it. However we did get him to open up a bit when his wife shared the collection of awards he received including Distinguished Flying Cross and Purple Heart for injuries he sustained from small arms ground fire rounds that passed through the cockpit, as well as other parts of the aircraft. In one his many missions recalled in the book “Secret Green Beret Commandos in Cambodia” by Lt Col Fred S. Lindsay, Major Oldenburg silenced an enemy machine gun nest with a shot from his tube fired rocket and continued close support and suppressing fire amongst continued heavy ground fire. When I asked him about this particular mission, he simply stated in his low key manner, “it was a lucky shot.”

You all are hero’s and we don’t get enough chances to say thank you for your service to our country. Hearing of their bravery and accomplishments are inspiring. Rocky, the books you graciously sent us based on your experiences are greatly appreciated by Del and his family.

After Vietnam my father-in-law flew Leer jets for a private company and then retired from Northwest airlines when he worked as a 757 simulator trainig protocol designer and instructor. He is now 91 and still driving very well (often like a pilot). He is a solid rock of the Christian faith, and for his family.

I am deeply honored whenever anyone benefits from my books. Please convey a crisp salute and a handshake to Del. The "Horny Greenets" (as we called them) were iron men.

If you have not read Rocky’s two books, you need to. They may be just a small snapshot of the war but eye opening nevertheless. Thank you Rocky for writing them.

HR talked about the AWADS system on the C-130. By the time I served as a navigator on them, we updated the system using onboard radar. We were able to get within 100 yards most of the time even dropping in clouds. The AWADS went out in the late 80’s.

Thanks to all you Vietnam guys. You’re all heroes in my book.

Off the subject just a bit, but this has me thinking. I could be way wrong, but the meaning I am seeing here is that warfare may not necessarily settle anything definitively, but it will change the course of history and sometimes in ways we can't foresee.

I seriously suspect the motives of those who ran that war, but the perspectives shared here really do give me pause for thought. I don't think I'll ever think it was worth the lives of 58000 young men, but those lives are spent and I'd rather believe that something of value was acquired than nothing at all...that notion makes my insides ache.

You guys that went were just a couple of years ahead of me. What you did and what you went through spared me having to experience the same. A simple thank you is not enough, but that's all I got.

To most that is enough, and more than a lot of Americans never gave. miles

Warriors of your ilk trained me during my humble enlistment in B2/75. I never tire of the stories and would hope I get to buy you gents a beer some day, if not in this life , then the next. Slow hand salute, gentlemen!

Not ready for the slow salute yet, thank goodness. That's for the lost warriors.

I render it to all the warriors I know, doesn't mean they have to be in a hurry to get somewhere!

Woody, Rocky, Dan, Mr York, et al.

Thank you Gentlemen for your service and what you boys did over in Vietnam and thank the Good Lord for Bringing you home.

I spent two years on a Huey medevac crew in the post Vietnam era, so it certainly gives me a closer idea of the bravery you gentlemen gave in doing the missions you did in Vietnam.

Woody, thanks for sharing that.

and Rocky, I think I've read and re read the two books I got off you at least 6 or 7 times. Thank you for those.

to the rest of the campfire members who served over there... Thank you for putting your lives on the line for our nation.
A Salute of Respect and Appreciation.

The men who served did more than was asked of them. The failures of Vietnam were the politicians, as usual.