I apologize on the front end of this post for my lack of understanding for many things within this question. I just don’t understand the “Why”...If you want to flame me for my ignorance, enjoy yourself 😎
Why would the Federal Government consider bailing out any corporations at this moment who are being adversely affected by COVID-19 when many of these companies have made billions of dollars in profits from all of us during our lifetime?
If these corporations have had multiple million dollar profits per quarter, why can’t the Feds say: We the government of the people are going to require all profitable corporations to dip into your profitable portfolios and continue to pay all your current workers their salaries and wages until the situation is under control.
If corporations have investors or companies have Angel Money, everyone knows there is risks involved running an organization, some seen and some unforeseen, but it’s a system of risk and reward.
This situation, though unfortunate and unforeseen is likely temporary - Why then should the American people have to bail out anyone who still has profitable paper?
So, what if they’re yearly numbers are tanked compared to their original forecasts for profits and growth?....Investors don’t get a check, Angel Money won’t see a return on their investments for a longer period of time.....It all was a gamble to begin with.
If a corporation spends their profits keeping their employees paid and then have a negative balance sheet...America probably wouldn’t have such a bad taste in our mouth when the Federal Government agrees to offer financial assistance to help them recover....But, not back to a point where the rich are more enriched....Remembering business is a gamble.
That’s my short version of question...Hoping some will understand the “Gist” of what I’m asking....😎
Example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...signs-Boeing-board-airlines-bailout.html
Yeah, I understand we need certain infrastructure and it's in the nation's best interest to support it, but the airlines getting a bailout really ticks me off. The industry as a whole pays their CEOs hundreds of millions a year, every year. At the same time they have offered worse customer service and more fees. It's not that I'm against corporate greed, I'm just against taxpayers propping them up in the rare times they aren't making obscene amounts of money.
Airlines are always a boom or bust operation. They're either making money hand over fist or in bankruptcy, there doesn't seem to be any in between. When times are good, like they have been for the last 10 years or so for them, they give their executives huge bonuses and use the extra money on things like stock buyback schemes. They know a downturn is inevitable and they should be stockpiling cash to deal with it, but the greed is too strong and they know they can just run to the government for a bailout or declare bankruptcy to get out from under their obligations and screw their employees. The options for government bailouts need to be taken off the table for these guys, it's a pattern just like welfare for single mothers that keep spitting out kids they can't pay for when they know the government will just give them money.
Privatize profits, nationalize debt, a sure recipe to take down a nation
Did you forget you started this ? 😂
Airlines are always a boom or bust operation. They're either making money hand over fist or in bankruptcy, there doesn't seem to be any in between. When times are good, like they have been for the last 10 years or so for them, they give their executives huge bonuses and use the extra money on things like stock buyback schemes. They know a downturn is inevitable and they should be stockpiling cash to deal with it, but the greed is too strong and they know they can just run to the government for a bailout or declare bankruptcy to get out from under their obligations and screw their employees. The options for government bailouts need to be taken off the table for these guys, it's a pattern just like welfare for single mothers that keep spitting out kids they can't pay for when they know the government will just give them money.
This seems about right, for a lot of corporations...Pay your fûckn people, you greedy bastards...😎
Did you forget you started this ? 😂
Laffin.....Trying to catch a fish...😎
In times like this.....the private sector must lay employees off......the public sector employees just take time off on the taxpayer dime.......full pay and benefits.
And corporations are evil.
If you have a good thing going.....always expect company. There are exceptions, but competition normally minimizes profits. No so with the public sector.
Corporations are the cash cow at the Federal, State, and local levels. Manufacturing facility property taxes alone, independent of property values. They just increase every year.
Why does the paycheck to paycheck working stiff deserve a payment?
Flame on.....may be a few hours til response.
I don't think anyone should get bailed out except arguably depositors in banks because that has been going on since 1933 and has given stability to the financial system bigly.
As you said, people who engage in business or buy stocks need to put on their big boy pants and understand that its a gamble. Sometimes it does not work out. Being back stopped by the man with the magic printing press leads to reckless behavior which leads to the need for more bailouts. Bankruptcy does not mean that companies necessarily disappear. Someone buys up the assets cheap, the debt and equity gets cancelled and they start over. See GM in 2009.
Had they let the system go belly up in 2009, financially responsible people would have been able to buy houses and other assets for pennies on the dollar and the Dow would have gone to about 3000. It would have been 1929 all over again but we eventually got over that. It could have come back on solid footing instead of the debt laden mess it is now.
Instead, they reflated it, rewarded irresponsible behavior, and now its needs bailing again. That is not capitalism. A whole generation of people think it is, see the inherent unfairness of it, and are apt to think socialism is better.
All that said, the thing that IS different now is that the government, rightly or wrongly, has completely lost their [bleep] over this virus. They created the recovery we have had since 2009 and now have created the bust of 2020.
First you must understand who owns corporations and where their profits go.
Just to keep it short, if you own a 401K, an IRA, or a pension plan, YOU are a corporation owner.
Full pay and benefits on unemployment?
Corporations didn’t build a city on rock and roll...It’s the workers who built it, fed the machine with their tax dollars, and keeps the machine oiled and running with their paychecks....Not the corporate big wheels who give huge bonuses when times are good and play hide the salami when shtf, and come groveling to the American people for bailout....Fûck um all 😎
First you must understand who owns corporations and where their profits go.
Just to keep it short, if you own a 401K, an IRA, or a pension plan, YOU are a corporation owner.
Didn’t see this Steve...So, you’re saying that corporations profits and losses are tied into large, bundled pensions and if they sink, so does a lot of people who are retired? 😎
The government did a lot of baling in 2008
There are so many in this country who believe any type of catastrophe, disaster or strife needs to be remedied somehow by our government. This is crap. Provide emergency services? Yes, absolutely. Replace people's lost income, property, home, etc.? No way, including mine. The only extent to which the government should be involved in such things is through, eliminating its own interference. The government should be involved in emergency services during such times. I think most agree with that. Beyond that, they should create or, better stated, get out of the way of a business and economic environment that will allow people to succeed.
On an ancillary topic, if the government were to cede back to private charities that which is more appropriately handled there than through government programs, a lot of the "trials and tribulations" associated with situations like this would be much better handled. It is amazing what can be done at the local level.
I think much of this isn't protecting the corporations. It's to keep the stock market from collapsing even more. I know my IRA has dropped 22% in the last couple of weeks.
First you must understand who owns corporations and where their profits go.
Just to keep it short, if you own a 401K, an IRA, or a pension plan, YOU are a corporation owner.
That is true but those people have invested in equities and made a speculative bet as to their values, usually without doing much homework. Same with people who buy houses with a mortgage which is essentially being long the house on margin. Under an actual capitalistic system, they are not owed a positive outcome by fellow taxpayers and future generations. Under whatever it is we have now its come to be expected.
I bet a lot of the "capitalists" with their hands out now and in 2008 hate welfare for poor people. Young people are not stupid. They see the hypocrisy of what we are doing and that is why they are vulnerable to a full blown communism and are liable to one day vote it in and take us with them.
Privatize profits, nationalize debt, a sure recipe to take down a nation
A lot of it starts with illegal takings.
If workers are not paid, if workers can get a better job elsewhere, or they do not like the working conditions-they will seek employment elsewhere.
If capital is not paid, if it can earn more elsewhere, or it doesn't like working conditions (ie regulatory or tax policy-it will seek employment elsewhere.
Without capital, labor has no job. Without labor, capital has no job.
The amount of corporations that can stop making money, totally, for 2-3 months and survive is small. Yes, some biggies can, but expenses remain, airlines still have to maintain planes, pay fees for gate slots in airports around the world, etc. If they conserve cash by laying off people, that has an effect as well. Taking an airline CEO's bonus and applying it to salary for the company sounds good, and would work, for about a week or 2.
Smaller companies simply can't afford to stop income for months while maintaining staff.
The economy is a system, changes in one piece have effects on other pieces, feel good moves, like tell them to pay people even without income, or raise minimum wage while they look and sound good, have effects. I fully expect forced sick leave to result in layoffs as the small companies simply can't afford it.
Add in the stock market where people worry about money and panic buy/sell just makes it worse. Decisions made for the good of the economy aren't always good for the individual.
First you must understand who owns corporations and where their profits go.
Just to keep it short, if you own a 401K, an IRA, or a pension plan, YOU are a corporation owner.
That is true but those people have invested in equities and made a speculative bet as to their values, usually without doing much homework. Same with people who buy houses with a mortgage which is essentially being long the house on margin. Under an actual capitalistic system, they are not owed a positive outcome by fellow taxpayers and future generations. Under whatever it is we have now its come to be expected.
I bet a lot of the "capitalists" with their hands out now and in 2008 hate welfare for poor people. Young people are not stupid. They see the hypocrisy of what we are doing and that is why they are vulnerable to a full blown communism and are liable to one day vote it in and take us with them.
Nice post !
Capitalism for the lil guy, Socialism for big biz when times get rough, capitalism for them when times are good.
The govt along w other private sources encourages folks to set aside enough supplies & cash to get through a rough patch like we’re seeing now. Why not the same for big biz ?
I'm not a fan of gov't bailouts, but I get SOME of the rationale.
First of all, recognize that if these big corps fail, you are going to pay one way or another. So do you want to pay the corporations to keep employing people or do you want to pay unemployment for how many tens-hundred thousands for how many months?
If they fail, you will have a lasting drag on the overall economy. High unemployment kills retail jobs, which add to unemployment, which kills demand for manufacturing, which leads to more unemployment and more unemployment leads to more unemployment claims.
The government is going to be spending money. It's just a matter of where. Unemployment benefits and stimulus packages vs. propping up big employers.
Next, all business runs on profit margins. In 2018, Delta Airlines had gross revenue of $44 billion. Their net profit was $1.4 billion. The haters here will be chit-ting all over themselves screaming "Delta make $1.4 BILLION. Phouc them! They don't deserve help! Rich capitalists pigs! Vote Bernie!" The reality is that is about a 4% profit margin. Four percent is a slim profit margin. Planes are damned expensive to buy, maintain and equip.
None of these anti-capitalists cried in 2009 when Delta LOST $1.2 BILLION
So when someone throws out at you the idea that some really large corp makes a billion in profit, first ask them what that is as a percent of total revenue and then what happens when sales fall? How much do they lose and where do they get a billion dollars to cover losses? Is single digit profit acceptable to them?
This goes back to your question. "Business is a gamble" - yep. Failure in extraordinary circumstances happens. Recognize that if many major employers go belly up, it will be very painful and lasting to the economy as a whole. Think Great Depression painful.
Next part of your question goes to back to the profit margin. I use Delta for example because I have the numbers handy and they are large. 4% isn't a big spread. Sales go off 10% for a whole year and they go BILLIONS in the hole. Hope they have money on hand to cover that.
To the last part of your question (hope I understand all of your question, sorry if I misinterpreted) is "why should the gov't bail out any industry that is still afloat?"
I wouldn't But, I will venture a guess that this admin is trying to get ahead of it and prevent 7-8-9% unemployment.
That's my perspective on the subject, at least for right now. Hope it helps.
I apologize on the front end of this post for my lack of understanding for many things within this question. I just don’t understand the “Why”...If you want to flame me for my ignorance, enjoy yourself 😎
Why would the Federal Government consider bailing out any corporations at this moment who are being adversely affected by COVID-19 when many of these companies have made billions of dollars in profits from all of us during our lifetime?
If these corporations have had multiple million dollar profits per quarter, why can’t the Feds say: We the government of the people are going to require all profitable corporations to dip into your profitable portfolios and continue to pay all your current workers their salaries and wages until the situation is under control.
If corporations have investors or companies have Angel Money, everyone knows there is risks involved running an organization, some seen and some unforeseen, but it’s a system of risk and reward.
This situation, though unfortunate and unforeseen is likely temporary - Why then should the American people have to bail out anyone who still has profitable paper?
So, what if they’re yearly numbers are tanked compared to their original forecasts for profits and growth?....Investors don’t get a check, Angel Money won’t see a return on their investments for a longer period of time.....It all was a gamble to begin with.
If a corporation spends their profits keeping their employees paid and then have a negative balance sheet...America probably wouldn’t have such a bad taste in our mouth when the Federal Government agrees to offer financial assistance to help them recover....But, not back to a point where the rich are more enriched....Remembering business is a gamble.
That’s my short version of question...Hoping some will understand the jest of what I’m asking....😎
Example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...signs-Boeing-board-airlines-bailout.html
They should sue all the media companies for losses caused by their intentional acts to cause disruption of the American economy.
Trade and money flow keeps them in business and the stocks strong. This means tax money to the government also. If we want people to have a job to go back to after this blows away, and for the goods and services these companies provide to be available, they need to survive and have a chance. Let's face it, economies in good times are like a house of cards, and something like this can knock things down to a point of no return for a smaller company. There will be companies either fold or re-organized over this mess even with some help.
I gotta disagree...
Governor’s, especially the Liberal ones with poorly run balance sheets - see State of Oregon, are always trying to distance themselves from the FedGov whenever a different party than there’s is in the WH, until really bad things happen...
Then they all sound like a fat baby being told mamas tit ain’t his anymore...Now, they want the federal government to do more, including fix their local fûck-ups for not being better prepared with a solid plan from all those disaster trainings they supposedly run.
I agree ...Government shouldn’t be paying workers special wages when private sector money that is stuffed in portfolios is available to assist the people who worked for them up until 4 days ago...😎
Some corporations do make millions per quarter or in some cases, per day. Depending on what they have invested, that may be a great deal, or a disaster. A rough example, if a corporation has a billion invested, and makes five million a quarter, they would be far better off, laying off all the employees, closing the doors, and investing the money in a balanced portfolio of investments.
Bailouts for Corps. is total BS - and paying Gov't workers who already get pensions/benefits that the vast majority of the private sector don't is BS . Agree with Mike Werner - you'll never see a working stiff get anything .
Get out there and fight it out trying to make a living all you tradesmen/private sector scum and small business owners and pay your damn taxes so the gov't workers can get their check every week on time without fail .
As stated - this crap is showing the millenial/Gen Z citizens that SOCIALISM IS GREAT , we all work together and share . Don't worry about standing on your own two feet - if anything happens there is always the safety net to fend off hardship for all . Yeh yippee -- bring back bernie .
if i just wrote the same exact thing as others it's because it took me 20min. to type it due too eating drinking coffee talking on the phone and typing with one finger .
First you must understand who owns corporations and where their profits go.
Just to keep it short, if you own a 401K, an IRA, or a pension plan, YOU are a corporation owner.
That is true but those people have invested in equities and made a speculative bet as to their values, usually without doing much homework. Same with people who buy houses with a mortgage which is essentially being long the house on margin. Under an actual capitalistic system, they are not owed a positive outcome by fellow taxpayers and future generations. Under whatever it is we have now its come to be expected.
I bet a lot of the "capitalists" with their hands out now and in 2008 hate welfare for poor people. Young people are not stupid. They see the hypocrisy of what we are doing and that is why they are vulnerable to a full blown communism and are liable to one day vote it in and take us with them.
Winner Chicken Dinner....We need to correct this by helping corporations learn they either survive or die without bailout money...Run your businesses better...😎
That's part of my point Beav. There has to be some private sector responsibility for their own well-being. I completely see people thinking the government has a part to play in economic stimulation through an influx of cash somehow in a time of economic emergency such as this. I'm not smart enough to know how that should or even can be done appropriately (subjective) and effectively. We've simply created a monster wherein Uncle Sugar always comes to the rescue of business. We've set a bad precedent in the past.
That's part of my point Beav. There has to be some private sector responsibility for their own well-being. I completely see people thinking the government has a part to play in economic stimulation through an influx of cash somehow in a time of economic emergency such as this. I'm not smart enough to know how that should or even can be done appropriately (subjective) and effectively.
I’m not smart enough either...I believe after seeing the bailout of Wall Street has sickened most of us...Bailout is a nasty word when big bonuses get paid to the select few who can navigate a room of political influencers better than others and fly home with a fat bailout check forthcoming for their company or industry...I admit, it’s a helluva salesman who can make those pig fat deals happen.
😎
You have to get back to the fundamental reason that caused the issue we are in today which is reckless use of debt at all levels of society. Business people in "the greatest generation" came through war and depression and understood that debt can bite you in the ass and were very conservative with it. Managers of corporations did not borrow multiples of their equity and lenders sure as heck would not lend them that much. The people who are running America these days have only seen prosperity for the most part and only see debt as a way to goose their returns. The most far thing from the minds of consumers now days is foregoing current consumption in order to have something better in the future......they want it NOW and THEN and lenders are more than happy to let them borrow to get it. So here we are.
To hats point....There must be something necessary about doing it, since it’s had bipartisan hands writing these checks from the Oval Office in the past and apparently again, in the near future....Back to what I first wrote. “I pretty clueless about why it is, this way” 😎
To hats point....There must be something necessary about doing it, since it’s had bipartisan hands writing these checks from the Oval Office in the past and apparently again, in the near future....Back to what I first wrote. “I pretty clueless about why it is, this way” 😎
What is the last thing any POTUS wants to go down as? The next Herbert Hoover. There is your answer.
There must be something necessary about doing it, since it’s had bipartisan hands writing these checks
Because having the world’s largest economy has tremendous advantages. The US can advance its interests like no other country simply due to that, and when our economic weight doesn’t work directly it also allows us to afford to build and maintain 11 active aircraft carriers while second place has 2.
Some relatively small investment now keeps what has been built from falling totally apart, and pays back orders of magnitude later by not having to be rebuilt from scratch or run the very real risk that it would be lost to somewhere like China forever.
LOLberterians and laissez faire types are like the black plague. They’ve been very nearly eradicated by mankind’s progress, but every once in a while they experience a tiny little resurgence.
In times like this.....the private sector must lay employees off......the public sector employees just take time off on the taxpayer dime.......full pay and benefits.
And corporations are evil.
If you have a good thing going.....always expect company. There are exceptions, but competition normally minimizes profits. No so with the public sector.
Corporations are the cash cow at the Federal, State, and local levels. Manufacturing facility property taxes alone, independent of property values. They just increase every year.
Why does the paycheck to paycheck working stiff deserve a payment?
Flame on.....may be a few hours til response.
Maybe because, if is wasn't for that paycheck to paycheck working the stiff, that CEO wouldn't be getting his 10 million salary. While there is a lot of fat in the public sector, there is a whole bunch in the private sector too. Every private company that actually produces something dreams of the government contract so they can cash in on the taxes those working stiffs pay. GD
Once folks realize that the stock market isn’t guaranteed to go up forever, the stock market will really be in trouble
Beav, the horse really left the barn with the meltdown. Once the Govt does something it never stops doing the same thing over and over.
To hats point....There must be something necessary about doing it, since it’s had bipartisan hands writing these checks from the Oval Office in the past and apparently again, in the near future....Back to what I first wrote. “I pretty clueless about why it is, this way” 😎
What is the last thing any POTUS wants to go down as? The next Herbert Hoover. There is your answer.
Let's add to that Herbert Hoover point. After Hoover, Dems controlled the White House for the next 20 years. They Controlled the House from '32 to '94 and the Senate the same save for a couple of short periods with a slim majority. Don't want to see that again!
It doesn't matter now since the deed is done, but.....
There should be no bailouts, to anyone, corporate or private citizen. This has the potential to destroy the economy for years to come. It was already in the mix but was just thrown on the fast track.
The fed was running $23 trillion in debt before covid19 and the market crash. We are now looking at possibly $30 trillion plus by the end of the year. Consumer debt was a record $14 trillion+ before co19 and now with the panic buying(most on credit cards) and little to no income for many, possibly for months? Do the math. Corp. debt has been at record highs above that in 2008-2009...again, do the math.
Show me one country that has either taxed or borrowed its way into long term prosperity and I'll show you some ocean front property in Two Dot Montana I'd like to sell.
Beav, the horse really left the barn with the meltdown. Once the Govt does something it never stops doing the same thing over and over.
History repeats itself....Some historians put forth that people should pay attention to the past, so not to repeat it failures.
Our system is just plain corrupt and broken...America is the greatest nation on earth because of us, the American people.
I was reading Hookeye post recently...He’s been laid off work for a little while. The guy is getting by, making adjustments to his situation by cutting back on needs and wants....But, not a single bitch or blame from him about his situation...If anything, more about optimism and foreword thinking.
Kinda like a good ole American boy. Shît happens, let’s just get on with it until I can make things better.
Just an observation...😎
Beav, the horse really left the barn with the meltdown. Once the Govt does something it never stops doing the same thing over and over.
History repeats itself....Some historians put forth that people should pay attention to the past, so not to repeat it failures.
Our system is just plain corrupt and broken...America is the greatest nation on earth because of us, the American people.
I was reading Hookeye post recently...He’s been laid off work for a little while. The guy is getting by, making adjustments to his situation by cutting back on needs and wants....But, not a single bitch or blame from him about his situation...If anything, more about optimism and foreword thinking.
Kinda like a good ole American boy. Shît happens, let’s just get on with it until I can make things better.
Just an observation...😎
Yep, a rare commodity.
Too many people now days want someone else to cover their a$$ when things go bad.
The learning curve is going to be very steep for a lot of people in the near future.
A lot of Boeing’s problems seem self inflicted, but we say we want to be independent for security reasons and not rely on manufacturing from other countries. How many other jet manufacturers are in the US?
You can honestly say the private sector has the fat to trim, compared to the public sector?
You are living on fantasy island. Not every corporation lives off government contracts.
Why send money to government employees....that are currently getting a free vacation, with full wage and benefits? I always had a problem with that during government shutdowns. They always got full pay for not working.
Most corporations that receive government contracts are required to meet stipulations......pay rates included.
Don’t send me borrowed gov’t money, period. I don’t need it...... but will be ticked when means testing starts on Social Security.
Send it to those in need only. Definitely not gov’t employees getting a free tax-payer-funded vacation.
Mr. Obvious always says: The private sector pulls the wagon....the public sector rides in the wagon.
In times like this.....the private sector must lay employees off......the public sector employees just take time off on the taxpayer dime.......full pay and benefits.
And corporations are evil.
If you have a good thing going.....always expect company. There are exceptions, but competition normally minimizes profits. No so with the public sector.
Corporations are the cash cow at the Federal, State, and local levels. Manufacturing facility property taxes alone, independent of property values. They just increase every year.
Why does the paycheck to paycheck working stiff deserve a payment?
Flame on.....may be a few hours til response.
Maybe because, if is wasn't for that paycheck to paycheck working the stiff, that CEO wouldn't be getting his 10 million salary. While there is a lot of fat in the public sector, there is a whole bunch in the private sector too. Every private company that actually produces something dreams of the government contract so they can cash in on the taxes those working stiffs pay. GD
There are so many in this country who believe any type of catastrophe, disaster or strife needs to be remedied somehow by our government. This is crap. Provide emergency services? Yes, absolutely. Replace people's lost income, property, home, etc.? No way, including mine. The only extent to which the government should be involved in such things is through, eliminating its own interference. The government should be involved in emergency services during such times. I think most agree with that. Beyond that, they should create or, better stated, get out of the way of a business and economic environment that will allow people to succeed.
On an ancillary topic, if the government were to cede back to private charities that which is more appropriately handled there than through government programs, a lot of the "trials and tribulations" associated with situations like this would be much better handled. It is amazing what can be done at the local level.
Very very well said.
I’ll add just a couple comments...
Last time around they said “too big to fail” but I’d have suggested it was more like “too big NOT to fail”.
I’d also say corporations are us... they’re legal entities made up of people to serve our interests... not the other way around.
This country’s ruling class has been allowed to become corrupted. We need to stop.
Here's a number for you.
If Boeing goes under, 2 million people loose their job.
Did you forget you started this ? 😂
Laffin.....Trying to catch a fish...😎
OK, I'll bite.
Did you mean what you said in your OP?
Hoping some will understand the jest of what I’m asking....😎
Gist buddy, gist...........
unless you really meant the whole thing as a joke?
Geno
Looks like the ponzi scheme they have created may be collapsing.... I sure as hell hope so
Here's a number for you.
If Boeing goes under, 2 million people loose their job.
Folks have mentioned on the 'fire a few times the past couple of days, the Fed govt "taking over" industry during our World Wars.
Could not "We the People" take over Boing and a select few others that are "too big to fail" (remember that from that little banking crisis?). Just for a while? Boing could keep their employees working making medical ventilator parts or something? Polished aluminum backscratchers? AR receivers? "Mag wheels"? Custom monogrammed aluminum TP holders, sized just right for their neighbor Costco's bundles of TP? Anything to keep them employed. And when the situation normalizes again, and travel starts, and planes are necessary, they get to go back into business?
Seems better to me than just handing out "bail out" money.
I need a new backscratcher and don't want to get another bamboo one from...................................China!
Geno
I like the way you think Geno.......
Make them earn it!
I apologize on the front end of this post for my lack of understanding for many things within this question. I just don’t understand the “Why”...If you want to flame me for my ignorance, enjoy yourself 😎
Why would the Federal Government consider bailing out any corporations at this moment who are being adversely affected by COVID-19 when many of these companies have made billions of dollars in profits from all of us during our lifetime?
If these corporations have had multiple million dollar profits per quarter, why can’t the Feds say: We the government of the people are going to require all profitable corporations to dip into your profitable portfolios and continue to pay all your current workers their salaries and wages until the situation is under control.
If corporations have investors or companies have Angel Money, everyone knows there is risks involved running an organization, some seen and some unforeseen, but it’s a system of risk and reward.
This situation, though unfortunate and unforeseen is likely temporary - Why then should the American people have to bail out anyone who still has profitable paper?
So, what if they’re yearly numbers are tanked compared to their original forecasts for profits and growth?....Investors don’t get a check, Angel Money won’t see a return on their investments for a longer period of time.....It all was a gamble to begin with.
If a corporation spends their profits keeping their employees paid and then have a negative balance sheet...America probably wouldn’t have such a bad taste in our mouth when the Federal Government agrees to offer financial assistance to help them recover....But, not back to a point where the rich are more enriched....Remembering business is a gamble.
That’s my short version of question...Hoping some will understand the jest of what I’m asking....😎
Example.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...signs-Boeing-board-airlines-bailout.html............................Well I will try and answer that for you. Making billions of $$$$ gross income does not mean billions of $$$$ on the net income side with billions of $$$$ in the bank.....This holds true with any large company or corporation.
Secondly, after this virus crises is over, then you hope to bring back as many employees as possible who were laid off. As business increases more employees can return to work. If these major corporations such as the airlines as well as all others DO NOT have enough working capital in which to operate fully then you can expect a much longer time period to bring all of their employees back...
So let us assume that no major corporations get a bailout, a grant or whatever. And let us further assume that the federal govt pays the reported $1200 per person x 2 if married plus $500 per child for income earners up to $75K or $100K, $150K or whatever and that is all the payouts from the govt........ So let me ask you this. If these corporations who collectively did employ thousand multiplied by thousands more before the virus, did NOT get any financial assistance, then can you expect all of their laid off employees to return to work ASAP? The answer is no.
Why? Because it takes alot of time to build up working capital and therefore the economy would grow at a much slower rate....Any major corporation has a certain budget in which to operate. If not enough capital then you can expect a slower return of employees until business gets back to normal which could take years......So who suffers if the major corporations cannot return its employees back to work ASAP or bring them back in stages to get them back to work ASAP? Remember too, that it is corporations who EMPLOY people, not the other way around. So they must be on a solid foundation with business moving in order to serve the employees.......Many demCRAPS chastise corporations as being greedy or this or that. All the demCRAPS are doing by blasting corporations,,, is to appeal to their radical socialist anti corporation, anti capitalism nut job base........
Everything mentioned above, also applies to smaller companies as well.....The last thing you want is a much slower or stagnant economic recovery with little to no growth..
Well I guess my economics degree out of college still has some benefits.......lol.....
^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^
The idea is to prop up business and the economy in general, so when this short term crisis is over, business will be largely intact, thus minimizing restart time.
^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^
The idea is to prop up business and the economy in general, so when this short term crisis is over, business will be largely intact, thus minimizing restart time.
...............Dats right!!!
Keynesian economic theory believed during down turns in the economy the government should step in with infusions of cash to prime the pump so to speak and keep the economic machine running.
Then during economic good times the government would curtail spending and allow the machine to make hay.
Well the politicians latched onto this and bastardized it and used it as an excuse to spend during good times and bad. Hard to lose an election when you are Santa Claus.... free schit is an easy sale.
Here's a number for you.
If Boeing goes under, 2 million people loose their job.
Folks have mentioned on the 'fire a few times the past couple of days, the Fed govt "taking over" industry during our World Wars.
Could not "We the People" take over Boing and a select few others that are "too big to fail" (remember that from that little banking crisis?). Just for a while? Boing could keep their employees working making medical ventilator parts or something? Polished aluminum backscratchers? AR receivers? "Mag wheels"? Custom monogrammed aluminum TP holders, sized just right for their neighbor Costco's bundles of TP? Anything to keep them employed. And when the situation normalizes again, and travel starts, and planes are necessary, they get to go back into business?
Seems better to me than just handing out "bail out" money.
I need a new backscratcher and don't want to get another bamboo one from...................................China!
Geno
Great idea! The first thing that crossed my mind, was retooling to what ever they decide to produce. During WW2 the government helped pay for retooling. And who eats the cost to retool again when this passes! To me it's just a bail out , that keeps people working! Not all bad but still a bailout. Since we're not at war, I have a problem with the government being in business. Kind of goes against what I believe our government is supposed to do!
It doesn't matter now since the deed is done, but.....
There should be no bailouts, to anyone, corporate or private citizen. This has the potential to destroy the economy for years to come. It was already in the mix but was just thrown on the fast track.
The fed was running $23 trillion in debt before covid19 and the market crash. We are now looking at possibly $30 trillion plus by the end of the year. Consumer debt was a record $14 trillion+ before co19 and now with the panic buying(most on credit cards) and little to no income for many, possibly for months? Do the math. Corp. debt has been at record highs above that in 2008-2009...again, do the math.
Show me one country that has either taxed or borrowed its way into long term prosperity and I'll show you some ocean front property in Two Dot Montana I'd like to sell.
We should bill China for this mess and scrub it from our debt. They were not good neighbors.
If I owe $5000 dollars I have a problem..... if I owe 50 billion dollars China has a problem... bwahahahahaha
If I owe $5000 dollars I have a problem..... if I owe 50 billion dollars China has a problem... bwahahahahaha
Pretty much.
Here's a number for you.
If Boeing goes under, 2 million people loose their job.
Folks have mentioned on the 'fire a few times the past couple of days, the Fed govt "taking over" industry during our World Wars.
Could not "We the People" take over Boing and a select few others that are "too big to fail" (remember that from that little banking crisis?). Just for a while? Boing could keep their employees working making medical ventilator parts or something? Polished aluminum backscratchers? AR receivers? "Mag wheels"? Custom monogrammed aluminum TP holders, sized just right for their neighbor Costco's bundles of TP? Anything to keep them employed. And when the situation normalizes again, and travel starts, and planes are necessary, they get to go back into business?
Seems better to me than just handing out "bail out" money.
I need a new backscratcher and don't want to get another bamboo one from...................................China!
Geno
Great idea! The first thing that crossed my mind, was retooling to what ever they decide to produce. During WW2 the government helped pay for retooling. And who eats the cost to retool again when this passes! To me it's just a bail out , that keeps people working! Not all bad but still a bailout. Since we're not at war, I have a problem with the government being in business. Kind of goes against what I believe our government is supposed to do!
Remember AIG and GM??
Tax payers made money on both of them.
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
Damn straight........ good post
First you must understand who owns corporations and where their profits go.
Just to keep it short, if you own a 401K, an IRA, or a pension plan, YOU are a corporation owner.
+1
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
...................Understand.......But if you wish for a thriving economy ASAP with a very low unemployment rate, there are no other options.....Like for all of us, this virus blinded sided everyone unexpectedly. Besides. Trump has not asked for any tax increases at any income level to help pay for all this. The economy needs to be jump started in a huge way, and the only way is with an in-flux of capital to those corporations and smaller businesses who EMPLOY lots of people.
It doesn't matter now since the deed is done, but.....
There should be no bailouts, to anyone, corporate or private citizen. This has the potential to destroy the economy for years to come. It was already in the mix but was just thrown on the fast track.
The fed was running $23 trillion in debt before covid19 and the market crash. We are now looking at possibly $30 trillion plus by the end of the year. Consumer debt was a record $14 trillion+ before co19 and now with the panic buying(most on credit cards) and little to no income for many, possibly for months? Do the math. Corp. debt has been at record highs above that in 2008-2009...again, do the math.
Show me one country that has either taxed or borrowed its way into long term prosperity and I'll show you some ocean front property in Two Dot Montana I'd like to sell.
We should bill China for this mess and scrub it from our debt. They were not good neighbors.
Better move the manufacturing of critical goods back over here before you send them the bill, they fully understand the concept of blackmail.
And then, you will see a revenue surge to the federal govt........Gotta have the revenue. And from where does the govt get its revenue? From working taxpayers. Gotta have them employed.
I understand that Boeing is strategically and economically important. Perhaps a bailout is justified. However, they also bought back many billions of their own stock in the past number of years. They have horribly mismanaged the 737 Max debacle, long before the current crisis.
So how about they reissue the stock they bought back to whoever wants, most likely the US Government, at a price reflective of the appropriate dilution from current market price. The current shareholders (owners) are going to take a huge (50%+) haircut, but at least they won’t entirely lose their investment. When Boeing is out of the woods and the economy is better, the government can sell their ownership over time, hopefully making a fair return for the taxpayers, saving Boeing, and a whole lot of jobs.
I am very much against giving away money at the taxpayer expense. Unless something like I describe is done, we are simply letting Boeing and it’s shareholders privatize the profits and then socialize the losses to the American taxpayer. There needs to be a price for mismanagement and malfeasance.
Shame of it is some states require you to be incorperated even if your a one man operation depending on your trade
Don’t corporations pay State governments for unemployment insurance?
Who pays the public sector unemployment insurance? Normally they are never laid-off, but who has paid.....when they are?
And then, you will see a revenue surge to the federal govt........Gotta have the revenue. And from where does the govt get its revenue? From working taxpayers. Gotta have them employed.
I understand that Boeing is strategically and economically important. Perhaps a bailout is justified. However, they also bought back many billions of their own stock in the past number of years. They have horribly mismanaged the 737 Max debacle, long before the current crisis.
So how about they reissue the stock they bought back to whoever wants, most likely the US Government, at a price reflective of the appropriate dilution from current market price. The current shareholders (owners) are going to take a huge (50%+) haircut, but at least they won’t entirely lose their investment. When Boeing is out of the woods and the economy is better, the government can sell their ownership over time, hopefully making a fair return for the taxpayers, saving Boeing, and a whole lot of jobs.
I am very much against giving away money at the taxpayer expense. Unless something like I describe is done, we are simply letting Boeing and it’s shareholders privatize the profits and then socialize the losses to the American taxpayer. There needs to be a price for mismanagement and malfeasance.
Agreement in spades......😎
Your way is very painful fir a lot of people.
Just sayin
Like “experience is the best teacher”
Sure, but the lessons can be hard.
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
Maybe look up Pyrrhic Victory
You can win and still lose.
You can be right and still be wrong
Don’t corporations pay State governments for unemployment insurance?
Who pays the public sector unemployment insurance? Normally they are never laid-off, but who has paid.....when they are?
And then, you will see a revenue surge to the federal govt........Gotta have the revenue. And from where does the govt get its revenue? From working taxpayers. Gotta have them employed.
...............Yes they do.....Companies and corporations pay more than what is always propagandized by the libTURD left..The funny thing is, is that I can guarantee ya, that millions of demCRAPS within this country work for large companies and corporations. The very people that the libtard left always demonize.......
It should be painful. A kid doesn't avoid touching a stove if he/she didn't feel the pain from burning themselves the first time. Sucks for the kid at the time, but it gives them a lesson that serves them the rest of their life. In reality, it probably teaches a lesson that passes on for generations. My folks went through a lot of hardship (My Dad's folks lost their store in the depression and my mom grew up in Great Britain during WW2). My folks lived their life understanding restraint and responsibility and they passed the trait on to me.
Your 100% correct that we've migrated away from having to face any kind of hardship. I'll admit, I see it in my own young kids too. That's the inherent fault of being a parent, you never want to let your child fail, so therefore you never let them learn a hard lesson.
We need a culture shift back to people feeling the results of their actions, rather than someone else feeling the result of their actions. The same holds true for businesses. Before any of them have really made any effort to weather any storm, they're already crying for federal bailouts.
Your way is very painful fir a lot of people.
Just sayin
Like “experience is the best teacher”
Sure, but the lessons can be hard.
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
It should be painful. A kid doesn't avoid touching a stove if he/she didn't feel the pain from burning themselves the first time. Sucks for the kid at the time, but it gives them a lesson that serves them the rest of their life. In reality, it probably teaches a lesson that passes on for generations. My folks went through a lot of hardship (My Dad's folks lost their store in the depression and my mom grew up in Great Britain during WW2). My folks lived their life understanding restraint and responsibility and they passed the trait on to me.
Your 100% correct that we've migrated away from having to face any kind of hardship. I'll admit, I see it in my own young kids too. That's the inherent fault of being a parent, you never want to let your child fail, so therefore you never let them learn a hard lesson.
We need a culture shift back to people feeling the results of their actions, rather than someone else feeling the result of their actions. The same holds true for businesses. Before any of them have really made any effort to weather any storm, they're already crying for federal bailouts.
Your way is very painful for a lot of people.
Just sayin
Like “experience is the best teacher”
Sure, but the lessons can be hard.
I've been amazed (well not really) during this latest crisis of the lack of preparedness of both people and corporations. I grew up with parents that always had the attitude of being prepared for the worst and if you run into difficulty, you had some basic preparedness and then you worked your way through or around it. I listen to the radio or television of folks that expect at the first sign of adversity or hardship, there should be someone or some entity that's there to get them through it.
I remember as a single guy when I bought my first house. The bank told be I qualified for a mortgage of $1200/mo. I thought they were out of their minds and went and found a house where my mortgage was $725/mo. An amount that if things went down the crapper, I could pay for it by working at a 7-11 to scrape by until I got back on my feet. That's no longer the case with people. They live their lives on the edge and then expect someone to bail them out when it all doesn't go their utopian way.
I'm tired of bailing people out for their bad choices and lack of preparedness. If you borrowed too much for college, shame on you, quit asking me to pay it off with my taxes. If you built a house on the coast and get blasted by a storm, quit asking me to help subsidize your risk with my taxes so you can rebuild. If your business plan didn't address risk mitigation or plan for a rainy day fund, quit asking me prop you up with my taxes.
Folks need to start assuming more responsibility for their own risky deeds and either be prepared to absorb the risk or be prepared to live with the loss from their risk.
You're tough!
My granddad used to say "America needs another good recession to teach people the value of work!"
I asked him, "did you enjoy the Great Depression, really?"
He said "Hell no!"
"So you want to do that all over again?"
He smiled, and at 19 years old, I won respect from a tough man.
In theory, i can relate to what you are saying, but a lot of people will suffer needlessly. Is that worth it?
I don't think anyone should get bailed out except arguably depositors in banks because that has been going on since 1933 and has given stability to the financial system bigly.
As you said, people who engage in business or buy stocks need to put on their big boy pants and understand that its a gamble. Sometimes it does not work out. Being back stopped by the man with the magic printing press leads to reckless behavior which leads to the need for more bailouts. Bankruptcy does not mean that companies necessarily disappear. Someone buys up the assets cheap, the debt and equity gets cancelled and they start over. See GM in 2009.
Had they let the system go belly up in 2009, financially responsible people would have been able to buy houses and other assets for pennies on the dollar and the Dow would have gone to about 3000. It would have been 1929 all over again but we eventually got over that. It could have come back on solid footing instead of the debt laden mess it is now.
Instead, they reflated it, rewarded irresponsible behavior, and now its needs bailing again. That is not capitalism. A whole generation of people think it is, see the inherent unfairness of it, and are apt to think socialism is better.
All that said, the thing that IS different now is that the government, rightly or wrongly, has completely lost their [bleep] over this virus. They created the recovery we have had since 2009 and now have created the bust of 2020.
This.
I will add, every business that wants a bailout should be required to run every employee through E-Verify before any money is handed over.
In theory, i can relate to what you are saying, but a lot of people will suffer needlessly. Is that worth it?
Someone is going to have to suffer sooner or later.
Our approach to all this reminds me of how we have “managed forests” against fire as fuel builds to the point that when there is a fire the soil burns and there is nothing left but a wasteland.
Our unwillingness to suffer discomfort in the last crisis will cause us to make tougher choices now, but we’ll take the easy way again, punting to the next generation...
Eventually we’ll burn to such an extent recovery will be more like mad max than the great depression.