How do Douglas barrels rate for a hunting rig compared to other barrel makes out there? Is there any truth that cut rifle barrels are faster then button rifled barrels?

Douglas works just fine.....

My Douglas cleans easy and is accurate.

I have two 6mm BRs, one has a Kreiger and the other has a Hart barrel. There is about 150 FPS diff. between the two.

They shoot almost the same load, but I will amit that the faster one does have .2 tenths more powder.

Some barrels are faster than others and that is facts, even from the same maker.

I have several makes of custom barrels and can not tell you one is better than the other. I do like some makers better than others but can't tell you why.

I have a # 4 SS Douglas chambered in 6BR that will consistently shoot sub 1/2 inch groups (.2's) if I do my part.

As others have said, all barrels will show velocity variances . I think the arguments over cut vs button rifling is mostly theoretical.

Consider this. Both Mickey Coleman and Melvin Forbes, gunsmiths renowned for producing extremely accurate rifles, use the Douglas as the "house" brand for their creations of rifled perfection.

HBB

I am probably one of the few who have not had good luck with Douglas barrels. Never had one that would shoot as good as I thought it should. Mine fouled considerably more than higher end tubes.

Cut vs. Button really comes down to personal preference. My current favorites are all cut, but that could be due to the fact that I personally like the guys I buy from, and they all make cut rifled barrels. Most cut rifled barrels come from small one man shops. The guy whose name is on the shingle hanging out front usually has a much bigger stake in making sure that the product is superb.

It all plays out in the fact that I have nver heard of a single instance of a bad barrel coming from a cut rifled shop.

Button rifled barrels have dominated BR for a while now (though Krieger is making inroads), so an argument could be made that buttoned barrels are more accurate.

I've tried most makes of barrel available today, and have observed that cut rifles tend to shoot more loads well, for a longer life. Buttoned barrels tend to shoot their favorite loads marginally more accurately than cut rifled barrels, but they seem to be a bit mroe finicky about specific loads and load changes.

The differance in price is small, so why not get a top of the line barrle from a company like Lilja, Broughton, Kreiger, etc?
My smith wont touch a Dougals barrel and he has more than a few guns in the Benchrest hall of fame.
BTW take a peek at the equipment list for one of the mjor benchrest matches and I think it will be a eye opener.

I have a custom rifle in 270 Wby, that is built on a 98 Mauser with a twenty-four inch Douglas Supreme barrel. The rifle was barrelled up more than forty years ago. It has shot extremely well from the day it went to work.

It gets over 3500 fps with 130 gr Speer, Hornady and Nosler bullets, and will still put all three brands under an inch at 100 yds.

This in an eight pound, scoped, walnut-stocked hunting rifle.

I'm happy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Cut or button...and add in "hammer-forged" for good measure! Which is better? I have no idea! I am personally leaning toward the "cut" rifle barrels these days. I recently had the opportunity to visit with Dan Pedersen of Classic Barrel and Gun Works (www.cutrifle.com) in Prescott, AZ. He does "cut" rifle barrels and also re-boring on his Pratt & Whitney Sine Bar rifling machine. Here is a pic of Dan & I standing behind the machine (Dan is on the right). A really fine gentleman and a great machinest!

Ol' John

Cut or button...and add in "hammer-forged" for good measure! Which is better? I have no idea! I am personally leaning toward the "cut" rifle barrels these days. I recently had the opportunity to visit with Dan Pedersen of Classic Barrel and Gun Works in Prescott, AZ. He does "cut" rifle barrels and also re-boring on his Pratt & Whitney Sine Bar rifling machine. Here is a pic of Dan & I standing behind the machine (Dan is on the right). A really fine gentleman and a great machinest!

Ol' John

Douglas makes a great hunting barrel. I've got about six of 'em,all smithed by Mickey Coleman.

I believe that Tony Boyer won a major event last year with a lowly Douglas...

I haave a win model 70 factory gun thats shoots under .75 inch with a few loads, but that doesnt mean Winchester barrels are the be all and end all of barrels.
Day in day out I believe other makers turn out a higher quality product than Douglas and like I said before the cost differance is min in the scheme of things.

The cook is more important than the ingredients....

+1 on that...

I figure my newly Douglas barreled 30 cal. is gonna do just fine...if I can get it back in time to work a load before September...

I currently have three chambered for different rounds, and all are superbly accurate and fould very little.

Very true! There are many things that go into a successful hunt. Benchrest grade accuracy ain't one of 'em....

Check out these groups they were shot with a Douglas barrel
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...p;page=0#108976

Maybe that grade of hunting accuracy ain't good enough for some. It's plenty good for me.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

The cook is very important no doubt, but you cant polish a dog turd. The best smith use the best components, just like the best chefs use the best ingrediants.

I guess some pretty crappy smith's have put together my rifles. Imagine them silly bastard's using Douglas tubes on my rifles. Wonder if I can return them....

Don't forget about the nut behind the trigger...

As far as a dog turd is concerned I have 4 rifles with Krieger match grade barrels and my 300 win has a Douglas and it shoots as good as my best Kreiger and better the others.The only rifle that I had to send back because of a barrel that did not shoot was a Krieger.I am not saying that Douglas is better just in my experience they are not dog turds.

All those bench rest competitors must be nutz paying extra money for those other non-Douglas barrels.

Don't know about their santity,just know the results that I have seen.Chech out these groups they were shot at 300 yards with a Douglas barrel in 300 Win this is a medium weight sporter not a bench rest gun
http://longrangehunting.com/ubbthreads/s...p;page=0#108976

Here is what Gale McMillan thinks on the subject. I think he might just have a little more insight than the " I got one and it shots fine crowd".
"Posted: 01-12-2000 08:56
This is how a barrel maker would judge them.. Hart the oldest and one of the best. Buttons his barrels and uses the push method which relies on
lubrication to maintain steady twist so some times shows a little accuracy problem A second generation family business. Shilen is the second oldest
company and is also a second generation business. They are capable of producing good rifle barrels. Douglas . is just a production barrel company
and you will get a barrel that has never had a human eye look through it! Good enough for a hunting rifle---Sometimes! You never know what you will
get.. Obermyer , \Kriegerthe and K and P are a cut barrel maker, As far as I am concerned that's enough said! Schnider learned his trade in the
McMillan shop and takes an engineers approach to making barrels. The other choice is. Lilja .. The above choice is based on what I think can make a
barrel which will shoot the best!"

The original question was would a Douglas barrel work on a hunting rifle not what barrel would be best for a bench gun. Personaly I wanted Krieger,but my smith had the Douglas and guarented it to .5moa or better which it does.I think that a Douglas would work well on a hunting rifle if you do not that is fine by me.I know how barrels are made and personally prefer a cut barrel for the reasons someone stated earlier,but that does not mean that they are a must.I think that I will try a Rock barrel next.

I've never had a Douglas not shoot,but their interior finish isn't on par with the upper echelon offerings.

PacNor easily remains my favorite and I think highly of Hart.......................

"They are capable of producing good rifle barrels. Douglas . is just a production barrel company
and you will get a barrel that has never had a human eye look through it!"
**********************************************************

I know for a fact this is not correct. They (Douglas) look through every barrel to pick out the straight ones. I can carry you to the spot in the shop where this is done. This has to be one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. Makes you wonder what Gale McMillan had as an agenda when he made that statement.

One thing to remember: just because a person has been in a business for years and has a well known name is no guarantee they are entirely objective. Everybody has prejudices against something or someone. It's just human nature. I don't like Schneider barrels because I don't like Gary Schneider. He's one of the rudest people I've ever met and I'm not going to do business with rude people.
Has nothing to do with his barrels but I can buy a good barrel without dealing with him.

Admire your sand.....................

You can look through a Douglas barrel and see reamer marks but they can't be measured...only seen because they're a slightly darker color. Tim Gardner, owner of Douglas barrels, is a close friend and I've asked him a lot of questions about barrels one of which is why don't they lap barrels.

Now Tim is not exempt from having his prejudices just as I mentioned in the thread about McMillan. His reply is, "If you know how to make a barrel you don't have to lap them."

Stop and think about it for a minute. The carbide button actually moves steel to form the lands. This means that the maker has to calculate what size to ream the hole so there will be just enough metal displaced to form the lands.
This, naturally, induces much stress into a barrel so it must be stress relieved after rifling and before it is contoured.

I noticed that Gary Schneider put in his ads that he pulls the button through his barrels. I asked Tim why did Schneider pull his buttons and Tim's reply was that Schneider hadn't learned how to push the button yet.

Douglas uses a certain lubricant on his button and P.J. Hart has tried for years to find out what it is and Douglas won't tell him. Hart uses copper as a lubricant for the carbide button, unless they've changed in the past few years, and they lapped to make sure the bore was uniform AND to get all the copper out of the barrel. When a barrel is air gauged it tells that the bore size is uniform to .0001 inch from one end to the other. How on earth can a lead lap with lapping compound improve on that?

I like Douglas barrels because they perform well and I get good service. Try to get Hart to replace a barrel sometimes! I had Douglas replace a barrel I thought was bad and it was replaced with no questions asked. Turns out the guy had a bad Kahles scope.

As for benchresters not using Douglas you need to understand that benchrest shooters are really lemmings that have not fallen off the cliff yet. It's a case of 'monkey see-monkey do'. Seely Masker made the comment once that if he won the Super Shoot with a small paddle wheel on the side of his rifle you would see half the guns on the line with paddle wheels at the next Super Shoot.

I have a lot of customers specify things and when I ask them why they made that choice it turns out that most of the time they base their decision on something they read and have no idea if it will help or not. We shooters are a strange bunch sometimes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

My Douglas, #5 XXX shoots easily 1/2 inch groups on my 240 wby. I do agree with Stick that looking down the interier looks rough, but it shoots very good.

Am guessing I have 20 rifles wearing Douglas,right now.

They just require more maintenance and I'm largely done with them,due to that sole reason.

Never had a single Douglas,that compared to any of my Harts,for fending fouling and I'm wayyyyyyyyyy deeper in Douglas than Hart tubes.

My Schneider's didn't foul either......................

Thanks, Stick.
You take care and don't get turned into bear scat.

I second that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Mickey, like we talked about, you're definitely building my next project rifle (even if you're not so fond of Winnies), and I won't make a fuss about the details, lest I end up being called a lemming or some such creature... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate that. Just so you'll know that I'm a mere mortal, too, I have my 'areas' where I've been a lemming. When I got started in benchrest I did what I saw all the 'old hands' do. It's the smart way to start because they've tried and discarded a lot of things that just don't work and that keeps us from having to blaze our own trail through some bad territory but after awhile you have to learn how to separate fly specks from black pepper yourself.

For instance, if you clean a Douglas barrel a couple of times and look through a borescope and check it out you'll find that they make beautiful barrels.

When you get ready for the rifle I'll build it like you want. You're the wagonmaster and I'm just another 'mule'. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, that was the original question. I also posed the question why buy a Douglas when you can have a better barrel for a neglible cost increase?
If its just a hunting gun and quality doesnt matter why not barrel it with a Rem or Win take off or how about a Adams and Bennet?
The truth is it does matter and chances are your going to keep the gun for a long time so why not spend $100 more bucks give or take and get top of the line quality?

Mickey, respectfully I do not think Douglas has a leg up on anyone in regards to the way they make barrels. Tooling marks and barrels that need frequant cleaning are not exceptable IMO on a custom rifle.
As for your comment on Benchresters. The lemming thing maybe true to a degree but Lilja, Krieger, Shilen, Hart, and a few others have been building winning barrels for years. They are not some fad thats taken up and quickly dropped and there longetivitiy in the game bares this out.

Assuming it is screwed on straight and chambered correctly, just dump some powder in a case, seat a bullet, and go shoot something in the blinker..........

I've not found that Douglas barrels have to be cleaned any more frequently than any other but I clean my barrels quite often anyway. The tooling marks you speak of (have you ever actually looked at them through a borescope?) are not larger than the longitudenal scratches left by lapping compound. The button leaves a 5-7 micron finish which is pretty slick. After you clean a Douglas barrel you can't see any marks at all.

[/Quote/]
I've not found that Douglas barrels have to be cleaned any more frequently than any other but I clean my barrels quite often anyway. The tooling marks you speak of (have you ever actually looked at them through a borescope?) are not larger than the longitudenal scratches left by lapping compound. The button leaves a 5-7 micron finish which is pretty slick. After you clean a Douglas barrel you can't see any marks at all.[Quote/]

I agree my Douglas barrel cleans just as easy as my Krieger hand lapped barrels

I've yet to establish a predictable relationship between smoothness/roughness and accuracy.......

I feel more better now than I ever did about my '06 project coming home with a Douglas on it...thanks guys!

Mickey, that's the one I talked to you about Cerekoting the aluminum trigger guard.....I'll go get that next weekend and it will be on it's way.

My 6BR Douglas barrel cleans up more easily than the Shilen barrel on my .280 AI (And the Shilen isn't at all tough to clean or bad to foul).

HBB

MC,

I like Garys barrels.Very much so. Have a couple HV tubes of his laying around here.They shot as good as any that ive tried.
I never considered him to be rude.Ive always said he is,
"hard to talk to", <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />,Actually now a days we have a great relationship.I send him a check with a description of what I want.And 6 weeks later a barrel shows up.
I dont think we have to worrie about him winning any Mr. Personality contest.But he does what he says he going to do,Thats all I require.
dave

I've got rifles with Hart,Shilen,K&P,Lilja,Broughton,Lilja,
Kreiger,Chanlyn,Pac-Nor,Wise-Mcmillian,Douglas,Gillard plus afew others. My first rifle I had rebarrel was back in the 60's and I am by no means an expert in barrels.
I've only had two bad barrels and I never got to shoot them gunsmith called me said he had to make a speical pilot for his reamers since he didn't have one large enough, they were being chamber for my Br rifle in 6ppc. One was a McMillian other Pac-Nor both barrels were replaced.
I think it was Dick Wright who used a Douglas barrel in his 22 short BR rifle for awhile. I've got one of Douglas xx barrels on a sako action in 243 and it's a good shooter, barrel broke in real nice. Got one of Forbes Ultra Light Model 24 rifle with a Douglas barrel again good shooter solid 1/2" at 100yd same as my other hunting rifles with a Lilja,Kreiger,Kostshyn or K&P barrels. If Douglas made a 1/14 twist 6mm XX barrel I would try it in one of my tight neck rifles to see how it shoots.
I don't own a bore scope so really cann't comment on what inside on any of my barrels other than they shoot. Some barrels doesn't mater who's barrel might take alittle long to finally settle in and shoot same with cleaning.
I've got button and cut barrels in same caliber, one rifle I used same gunsmith so had same barrel lenght,twist and chamber the cut was faster by 30fps on same load.
You can get a good barrel but takes a good gunsmith to chamber one so to me the barrel is 10% other 90 goes to the gunsmith. Just my .02

Douglas makes a 1-14 twist 6mm barrel. I shot them for years on my benchrest rifle. In fact, I have one on a Shilen DGA right now.

Gary loaded with me and a couple of other guys at the Super Shoot once. We loaded under the same awning for a week and he was rude the entire week. Homer Culver was there at the time and Gary sucked up to Homer like a teeny-bopper around the captain of the football team.

Allan Hall tells of the time he visited Gary's shop and asked to see Gary's operation. Gary refused to show him around which was kinda insulting. It would be like Charlie Sisk coming to see me and I wouldn't let him in my shop. Gary may make a good barrel. I was shooting one of his barrels at that Super Shoot but that was the last one I ever bought. If a customer wanted a Schneider barrel I'd buy one in a heartbeat because I'm here to serve the customer but none for me.

I like Douglas barrels. But I like Hart, Shilen, and most factory barrels too. I think that most factory and after-market barrels have the capability to produce good groups if the they are installed properly, good loading technique is used, and the guy behind the trigger can actually shoot. I believe that NULA uses Douglas barrels and they are known to be pretty accurate rifles.

FWIW, when I buy Douglas barrels directly from Douglas, I always pay a little extra to buy XX air-gaged select barrels.

Jeff

[/quote]


As for benchresters not using Douglas you need to understand that benchrest shooters are really lemmings that have not fallen off the cliff yet. It's a case of 'monkey see-monkey do'. Seely Masker made the comment once that if he won the Super Shoot with a small paddle wheel on the side of his rifle you would see half the guns on the line with paddle wheels at the next Super Shoot.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> [/quote]

I know of one "Lemming" who is in the BR HOF and one of the countries best gunsmiths who has forgotten more about the building of precision rifles than you will ever know. Please be careful how you cast aspersions as your ignorance of the subject is readily apparent.

BH,

try as I might, I can't see the point of your post. Its not important that you "know of" a Hall of Famer, neither is it relevant that you may know the best gunsmith that ever lived. Was there any intended purpose to your statement?

Whoa Hoss!

Your calling Mickey Coleman ignorant on the subject building precision rifles leads me to believe that you don't know a buttstock from a brickbat.

What's your purpose in making such an asinine statement?


HBB

Well I do realize some people are not as sharp as others so I will make this crystal for you:


The individual I speak of is Speedy Gonzalez who is in the BR HOF and one of the best Smiths in the country and have quite a few of his rifles in my safe. I have spent hundreds of hours in his shop and have never seen a new Douglas barrel being chambered in a competition or hunting rifle. To cast aspersions about a class of people one is not familiar with is not responsible. Maybe this individual is just jealous or does not posses the knowledge, skill, experience or equipment to take advantage of the best materials and equipment required to make precision rifles I don�t know�sounds like a hacksmith to me.

Are we clear now or do you need further information?

Please continue speaking about yourself as I believe Mickey is "familiar with the BR Crowd".......

Hey gents, don't feed the trolls. Just ignore the fool.

All you will hear is how he is best friends with Speedy, Speedy is the only smith who knows how to chamber a barrel, you hunt behind a high fence, blah, blah, blah.

Not really worth the time, IMHO.

Those that matter know Mickey's reputation.

The only Speedy Gonzalez I know is a little mexican mouse on the Tune Network....my kids get a kick out of him....

Mickey Coleman will build my next Rifle.....

How 'bout it Mick? Wanna do a 25 Souper with a Douglas Tube?

'Course it'll be a lowly huntin' rifle....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know very well who Mickey is been on his site (I was being sarcastic) before but kind of pisses me off to be referred to as a "lemming" even though I do compete at 1k most of my shooting is done at the ranch. When people make a statement about their clientele it would seem that it would be rather hard on business but maybe he does this as a hobby for him and does not care if he pisses off business. This is why we live in a county that you can spend your money with who you choose.

People from Kalifornia who hunt high fence really don't count. Go back to Starbucks and then out for some Toro. While you are here every weekend stroking your barrel so to speak I am out shooting most weekends and working on the ranch. This last weekend besides lighting off some very large piles of cedar and other hard woods I found time to shoot a couple of hundred rounds at the 600 and 1200 yard gong targets--how was your weekend? Next weekend will be doing more shooting as we are done with the burning for this year.

Well gee.....

I do believe that Mr. Coleman was talking with tongue planted firmly in cheek. I certainly thought that I understood the context with which he meant.

It would appear (to me at least) that his simple attempt at levity was certainly lost on some of the responedees herewith. I certainly got a chuckle out of it. Too bad that others failed to see the humor in it.

I do hope the esteemed Mr. Coleman is not as thin-skinned as it appears that others so obviously are.

As far as Douglas bbls go, it seems to me that not everyone wishes to build or can afford a $3K custom rifle. For those good folks, I would think that Douglas bbls are certainly adequate. I believe that I might have 2 or 3 my own self. They sit in the safe amoungst the Kreigers, Pac-Nors, Liljas, Shilens, et.al and I haven't heard any complaints! They are not my barrel of choice, unless I'm building a toy on the cheap. But for a hunting rifle, I can't see that it matters who pushes or pulls the spud down the hole. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> JMHO.

Grasshopper

The barrel is the cheapest piece of the puzzle. There generally isn't $100 difference in price,within the Makes thus far mentioned.

I can't cuss Douglas,nor are they my first choice....................

Exactly, so why not just buy the best available?
Benchrest guys do not use douglas barrels because they are the best going or even comparable with the better makes. As with many things you pay for what you get.
BTW not to name drop, but my smith is in the BHOF or has guns in it( I cant recall which). I wouldnt call him a lemming at all and he is not a BS'er either. When he builds hunting guns his first choice is Lilja, for bench guns Lilja, Broughton and Krieger. He along with many other quality smiths do not have anything good to say about Douglas.

BTW I dont have anything against a guy building a budget gun, but call a spade a spade. Douglas is a lower eschelon barrel maker. Cast in this light why not just go with a Adams & Bennet, which is much cheaper than most barrels?

The beauty of Douglas barrels is that Mickey likes them. Mickey's got my business and I'll use the barrel he recommeds. Have you not noticed that he's gone to bat for Douglas? I'll bet (and it'd be a safe bet) that if I was not satisfied with the barrel that it would be replaced with little to no cost for me. If a gunsmith swears by a barrel you better know I'll use it. That way if its a dog there's a better chance he can work it out with the barrel maker. I've a feeling that if I had Mickey barrel a Schneider and it didnt work out he'd tell me to shove it up my ass. Well, maybe Mickey wouldnt but most others would. For me, Douglas is cheap insurance!

Dude... You're special.....

I wasn't going to jump in this fight,but...
What eschelon are you talking about?
I got a Douglas barrel that came from Hill Country that is a one holer...What echelon is better than that?
How many Douglas barrels do you have?
Oh yeah...I could give a fugg about "Your Smith"being in any hall of anything...
I guess that experience don't count when YOUR talking echelons.......
Bart

Bart you are wasting your time talking to the br Elite (you know the monkey see monkey do crowd) no different than trying to reason with the oppertunist elitist

I know...But damn...They are the ones' that should know
that nothing is absoloute in shooting...Remember the guy
that won a 1000yrd comp a couple of years ago with a Savage/Hart combo? Amazing how the ELITE are full of it...
Bart

I only wish Tikka marketed barrels...........

Hart makes a good tube.
This "My douglas barrled gun shoots .1'' groups at 1500 yards so they are the best" crap is laughable.
I have a Remington 700 PSS that shoots very tight groups, but I would consider remington a top of the line barrel maker.

The upper eschelon I am talking about is the makers of the majority of the benchrest shooters barrels. Hart, Lilja, Krieger, Broughton, Schneider, Shilen. Oberymeyer, Mike Rock, Border and a few others make good barrels as well.

Who is exactly the benchrest elite?
I dont think anyone in this thread has claimed to be a a BR'er besides Micky Coleman.
Looking at the equipment bench rest shooters use is a good way to benchmark performance however. As with any competition they use what works best.

Ain't figgered how what they use applies to a hunting rifle?

Actually very simple--------taper is the only difference in the actual barrel or maybe fluting. Now after the Smith gets finished with it could be significant for example, I have many hunting rifles that use the same chambers and necks as my BR guns the only difference being the taper and maybe a brake. Some people like it that way some don�t but the steel with the hole in it is the same just a little smaller taper. When I have reamers made I always use them for my hunting rifles as well that way I can do the same brass preparation as my competition chamberings.

A higher qualtity barrel in general will shoot better on a hunting rig and a BR rig.
Again if barrel quality doesnt matter why not use a take off or a A&B?

Why not? A good many folks do.

Some of those barrels shoot plenty well.

Of course, some shoot like [bleep], and those get replaced.

If a barrel shoots well, very well, and plenty for it's intended purpose, wtf does it matter whether it's a Savage factory barrel, or a custom barrel (like a Spencer)?

The biggest difference in accuracy isn't the barrel, but the guy behind the trigger. Fix those problems first, then worry about something else.

IMHO, fixing the problems behind the trigger solves about 99.9% of all accuracy/hunting related problems.

Of course, ymmv...

If "hunting" accuracy is the level of performance expected, why not use a Remington take-off or an A&B? I have Remington take-off barrels that shoot really good "hunting" accuracy groups and A&B barrels in 22-250, 257 Roberts, and 260 that are very accurate.

The type of accuracy required to be competitive in the BR shooting game is, IMO, exponentially greater than the type of accuracy required to shoot anything bigger than a 'chuck within "typical" hunting ranges out to 400+/- yards. It does take a higher grade of accuracy to shoot pdogs at longer ranges, but still not the level required on a BR range. Besides, most people aren't building hunting rifles around Niska Bay or Stolle actions, or at least I don't recall seeing either action on a rifle in the field.

Jeff

Exactly.

Apples to oranges.

Almost everyone hear is talking about hunting, with a few constantly bringing up BR shooting. Different critters altogether.

"I do hope the esteemed Mr. Coleman is not as thin-skinned as it appears that others so obviously are."

Grasshopper, I've been in the insurance business for 45 years. I can promise you my skin is not thin.

In benchrest shooting there are, usually, only about 20-30 people who are considered serious contenders for first place at a major match. Granted, sometimes another shooter comes from out of nowhere to win but seldom are they near the top the next year. They are like Bart Sauter referred to me once, 'comets' that flash across the sky once in a great while.

I was never a serious threat to win major shoots even though I have placed well a few times. I just don't have the drive and mindset to pay the price you must pay to stay at the top.

Smiley Hensley set a world record aggregate shooting Douglas barrels once but doesn't shoot them now. Two years ago Tony Boyer told me that he bought four Douglas barrels and two of them were great barrels. His comment was, "that's a lot better percentage than I ever got with Shilens". Why Tony is not still trying Douglas I can't tell you other than he goes from maker to maker always searching for that 'hummer' barrel. I do know that 4 years ago he had Dwight Scott chamber up 22 Shilen barrels and he only kept 2 or 3 of them. That ain't too high a percentage of 'keepers'.

For the rest of the shooters who are really the reasons benchrest continues to thrive, they really do behave as lemmings. Whatever the winners shoot or use, that's what they're going to use. They (and I did the same) depend on the winners to try different things and kinda sift through for them. To paraphrase Sen. Hollings, 'there ain't a whole lot of innovatin' goin' on out dere!'

Barrels are about as good as they can get. Scopes are the weak link in accuracy now.

From time to time barrel makers will make the comment through one of their guys that 'Boy! We've got a great heat of steel in and it's doing fantastic!' If this statement is made at the Nationals or Super Shoot I can guarantee you they will take orders for a bunch of barrels at that shoot. I've seen it happen many times. It's a good sales technique.

One word from Tony Boyer, Dwight Scott, Mike Ratigan, Wayne Campbell or a dozen or so other good shooters about any product will produce sales. That is the 'lemming mentality'. It was not meant as a slur and, properly interpreted, would not have been read thusly. It helps for readers to know the meanings of words if we're to communicate properly.

Why are the following points so hard to understand?
A. Douglas barrels are not widely used in competitive shooting because they are not as good as some of the other makes.
B. Hunting rifles benifit from a good barrel just like a BR gun does.
c. The cost differance between a truly good barrel and a lower quality one are minimal. Around $100 or less.

BTW Mickey I dont have any ax to grind with you personaly and have never heard anything negative about your work so dont take it that way.

Perhaps I have completely missed the entire point of this thread, but what I thought was being pointed out by the Pro-high end barrel crowd was that going high end to begin with eliminates a whole bunch of risk.

Sure, the difference between a top quality barrel and a medicore barrel may be significant to some. I think that is a false economy.

Regardless of how you do it, you are going to have a minimum of $1500 into any rifle with a custom tube, Douglas or otherwise. $100 is beans when compared to the big picture.

I am sure that Douglas is great about replacing a dud barrel, but who is going to replace the cost of having it fitted and chambered? Can the smith really be held responsible for bearing the cost of putting it back on? He didn't make the bum barrel, nor would he have any way to checking to ensure it wasn't bum before he put it on. Someone has to bear the cost of putting the replacement barrel on.

By starting with the best barrel you can buy, and spending the extra few bucks to get it, you minimize the risk of a bad barrel by a huge amount. That doesn't even take into account the extra time and effort Douglas barrels take in the cleaning department (at least mine have). Nor does it factor in the fact that Douglas barrels don't last as long as some other top brands (at least mine and a handful of others I am familiar with didn't).

Bottom line is that you can buy the best barrel in the world for less than $300.00. When compared with the total cost of a build, why skimp on a few bucks?






Taking the rifle as a unit unto itself, and removing human interference, the barrel is probably the single most important factor in accuracy. A rifle is never going to shoot better than it's mechanical limitations, so it boggles my mind why one would intentionally set a lower limit for potential accuracy by going with a less than exceptional barrel.

David Tubb pretty much has the "nut behind the trigger" figured out, and I can guaran-damn-tee you that he would not be in the position that he is if he'd run sub-optimal equipment for his entire career.

Handicapping one's self with sub-optimal equipment strikes me as a perfect way to lengthen the learning curve. Start with good stuff, and it is almost silly how easy this can be.

Exactly. Truth be told, it's the rare factory rifle that won't deliver acceptable hunting accuracy. Truth be told, it's the rare shooter that's happy with factory rifle accuracy. It's just human nature to want to do 'just a little better'. There is absolutely no need for the level of accuracy needed to win benchrest in hunting situations but when the subject of barrels comes up invariable somebody is going to say, "If Douglas barrels are so great why ain't the benchrest shooters using 'em?"

The statement was made that you can buy a Hart for just under $100 more so why not spend it? That's about 30% more but if that were an argument that we carried over to all facets of our life Wal-Mart would not be in business today.
I'd be willing to bet (and I don't how any of us could prove this) out of 100 barrels from Hart, Krieger, Shilen, Douglas or Schneider we could not tell the difference in a blind test.

A statement made by Gale McMillan was used to put down Douglas barrels and was apparently accepted as 'written in stone'. How does anybody know but what G. R. Douglas and Gale McMillan got into a spat at one time and McMillan was just being hateful or was he trying to eliminate some competition for his brother who was making barrels at the time. Who knows if Gale McMillan actually said that? Who knows?

"I am sure that Douglas is great about replacing a dud barrel, but who is going to replace the cost of having it fitted and chambered?"

Charley, the barrel that Douglas replaced for me I chambered it and fitted it at no cost to the customer and, as it turned out, it was his scope and not the barrel. I still have the barrel in the shop.

CAS, I couldnt have summed it up better.
Garbage in, garbage out.

Gale Mcmillan did say that and I believe his brother was out of the barrel business by then.
Gale is by no means the only gunsmith to hold Douglas in low esteem. Google Douglas barrels and you will find all sorts of negative crap.

Why are the following points so hard to understand?
A. Douglas barrels are not widely used in competitive shooting because they are not as good as some of the other makes.
*********************************************************

Just what competiton are you referencing? It's true that Douglas is not used by many benchrest shooters but in a lot of other disciplines they have ruled for years. In scheutzen competion they have been 'king' for many years. Those shooters are just a serious about winning as benchrest shooters.

No offense was taken on my part. Lest my postings be misinterpreted let me say that I have no problem whatsoever if a person wants to use another brand barrel. I tell my customers that I'll use any barrel they choose but if I were building the rifle for my own use I would use a Douglas simply because I know they are the equal of any barrel. Price has nothing to do with it. If another person has more confidence in Broughton barrels then that's what they should use but to make a statement that barrel 'A' is not as good as barrel 'B' is not a valid position. In fact, barrel 'A' from Douglas may not be as good as barrel 'B' from Douglas. Nobody knows why this is so but it is a fact. If it were not so then Tony Boyer (who spares no expense in shooting) would not pay Dwight Scott (one of the premier gunsmiths in benchrest) to chamber 22 Shilen barrels and then only keep 2-3 of them. He would keep 20 of them, would he not? Shilen has been mentioned here as one of the good barrels used by benchrest shooters.

Agreed...

If it makes you feel better knowing your barrel was hand cut by Peruvian Monks while chanting gregorian hymns then good luck to you.

The original question was whether Douglas made good hunting barrels. This from a New York Still Hunter. Do you actually think he is gonna measure his load development groups to the nearest 0.0001" ????

BenchRest Competition is a great sport but has very little to do with actual hunting. National Highpower is a much closer related sport and there, Douglas Barrels are quite popular....

That is a pretty bold statement about the art of barrel making--10 years ago would you have laughed at the thought of Tim's 5C product? Scopes are and always be a weak point.

Understood as I should have known you were using the term in the abstract my error----one thing that has not been in this discussion is that the majority of folks who are reading this are not really capable of fully evaluating a load that is shot out of any barrel at long range esp (relative term I know) lets say 300yds because the wind and the shooters ability to read it will make the difference in knowing if a barrel is a hummer or a tire iron. Many times I have seen people who do not know how to read the conditions and make poor choices in when to pull the trigger and then read the corresponding result on the target as �what a POS barrel or load�. I am talking about friends who just want the factory Remmy to shoot little holes. I have taken the same rifle using the same loads explain how to use the wind drift chart and much of the time will cut the group size considerably. In the wind if you have a prevailing condition at 7oclock the bullet will strike low and a little to the right of center but many do not fully understand this dynamic and how it works. Should you want to properly evaluate the new barrel you had better understand this. It is a given that many other variables besides the above are involved but this is one of the most overlooked.

When I am evaluating loads (I use the 600yd range for the first evaluation) it must be in at least a 5mph wind preferably 10 to 15 (blows the sky screens around a little) so as to completely understand how the bullet will perform in actual conditions. It does not matter weather you are shooting at the target of record or a trophy deer you still have to get the bullet to the intended target. I have been shooting 1k yards at the ranch off and on for over 30 years but as a result of competition and the instruction of many people have improved my shooting skills many fold.

If you cannot properly evaluate the product you are buying then does it even make sense to spend the $500.00 or so dollars to install a premium barrel? Your money your choice.

The LV 100 5-shot group record,goes back to '73.

I think today were are blessed with exceptional componetry,across the board. Barrels and bullets fall squarely within that statement.

As a rule,you'll never meet someone who's a better shot than they THINK they are.........................(grin)

Not necessarily, depending on who's building your rifle. I know that Mickey and Melvin will both satisfy your accuracy expectations if using Douglas barrels at no additional cost to the purchaser. There is no risk to eliminate. That is the sole reason I use Douglas barrels when dealing with Mickey. He takes the risk, not me. I'd be foolish to use any other barrel when dealing with Mickey.

Uh........................................ Not really. Tim got the concept from Boots Obermeyer, who has been doing it since before Tim even dreamed about getting in the business. Granted, Tim buttons his barrels (as opposed to Boots cutting his), but even that concept is not new.

Mickey,

I remember reading about that before. It doesn't change the fact that the cost of replacing a barrel is still borne by someone. There aren't a whole lot of smiths that would do what you did, which probably explains why you have such a stellar reputation and have an easy time pushing Douglas barrels.

By guaranteeing the work to that extent, you assume the risk that would otherwise be shouldered by the consumer.

(Please tell me that didn't just push my project to the back of the line <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Kind of like saying Lockheed got the idea of the F-22A from the Wright Brothers. Go get back behind the high fence as the deer you have tied up is ready to be shot! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

There is very little "new" in the way of barrels,be it canted or radiused rifling profiles,or polygonal.

Boots ain't to be slighted............................

Why don't you call Tim and ask him where he got the idea. Buttoning as oposed to cutting is a LONG ways from your analogy. Of course, comprehension ain't your long suit.

Please keep up the cracks about high fence hunting. Coming from a fat Texan who hunts over a feeder, that is friggin hilarious, especially since there isn't a SINGLE high fence operation in all of California.

Besides, he aint tied up, he was kneecapped as a fawn so that I could keep an eye on him.

jfsag, someone please post up the winners of the top-end BR matches for, say, the last 5 years, and their rigs... barrels, actions, builders, scopes.... and put in there the lengths of the barrels and overall weights of those things, too.

Just curious...

Thats a piss poor analogy.
Tim North, the president of Broughton barrels even says the the 5c groove profile is simular to the one obermeyer has used for years.
http://www.6mmbr.com/BroughtonProfile.html


I am not knocking Broughton barrels in any way as I actually have a Broughton being chambered in .300 Win mag as we speek.

I have 4 of them including the one on my 338 Lapua AI 1k gun my 338 Lapua AI hunting rifle a 6x284 and a 6.5x284and I am well aware of what you cut and pasted. I have talked to Tim about this subject before and the differences are there. Your vast and very extensive knowledge base may just not be aware of them.

Your splitting hairs. In general the concept and purpose for both is the same. Maybe a better term would be to say 5C is a refinment of 5R.

I'm willing to bet my SUCKS lefty with the 2x7 Nikon and the new Douglas factory contour barrel is gonna blast 168 TSX's right thru the next Whitetail I put the crosshairs on...

If the Bear Gods are smiling...it will happen to a good bear before that...

Can't wait to get to it.....

Well coming from a Kommie Kalifornian who hunts high fence that is some statement. I do not hunt over feeders even though we do have them and something else you are totally clueless about is Wildlife Management and what is required to help the anmials ( I have not shot any Whitetail but a cull for 5 years lots of pigs and other vermin I do not even shoot Turkey any more). I have spent more time with the Texas DPW Biologist, Game Wardens, US Department of the Interior Fish and Wildlife Service Biologists and Endangered Species Coordinator than you have pasting money to your body for the High Fence Ranch Owners to pillage. The difference between you hunting and when I hunt it is I hunt whereas you just go to a high fence area to �get your monies worth� then pay someone else to haul and process your animal only because the law requires otherwise, you would just cut off the horns and let it lay <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. Now I feel that was a pretty accurate assessment of your conservation activities. When you walk up to a guide with <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />money <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> strapped all over you ride to the �stand� behind the high fence and they let the animal out of the cage you get all excited don�t you�tell the truth you do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

You may have more money to spend on your high fence hunting than I do but in the end I have contributed more to the enhancement of habitat and the indigenous wildlife species in our area than all of your money going into the High Fence Ranch Owner who only purchases the best for you to shoot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Question----HAVE YOU OR HAVE YOU NOT EVER HUNTED IN ANY AREA WHERE A FENCE PREVENTED THE GAME FROM MOVING FREELY FROM ONE AREA TO ANOTHER--HAVE YOU EVER HUNTED HIGH FENCE??? You do know that B&C will not let you list your pen shot anmials with their Club.

"I'm willing to bet my SUCKS lefty with the 2x7 Nikon and the new Douglas factory contour barrel is gonna blast 168 TSX's right thru the next Whitetail I put the crosshairs on..."
So would one off the shelf from Walmart......

Cas,
I'll bet you a kajillion million bucks (and a 10' black bear rug AND the Cullinan diamond, and, and,...... ) that this dude ain't DFC <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

badger

Yep--and you also get to live in a hunters dream!

What is DFC?

Badger,

You made my day with that crack. Thank you!

We are on the same wavelength <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He was provoking fond memories of Ol' Danny Boy. At least Danny had something intelligent and correct to offer on rare circumstances, even if he was a complete waste of good oxygen.

I await the revelation,that he's his own Grandpa,after the Treatise on his sister's girlfriend's cousin's BIL,is in the BHOF,give or take,kinda/sorta.

Compelling.......................

Thanks---Oh are you going to answer the question about high fence???

What do high fences have to do with barrels?

Ain't frettin' what Wal-Mart might could WANT to sell me...if there's even any left sellin' guns.....

FWIW...I shot out a factory .270 barrel on a realy nice and sentimentally valuable rifle..one of my favorite hunting rifles... chose to upgrade caliber size to 30-06. My smith, a very good friend of mine suggested a Douglas...

I'm going that route and I'm gonna be tickled to hunt with it again.......like I said, can't wait.

Thats what I thought--lower than pond scum. He stated that I hunted feeders and I answered I do not--what does that have to do with barrels I ask you my friend?

That Douglas should make a good factory replacement.

I ain't worried 'bout nuthin'...

I'll hunt behind a fence and love every minute of it. Same goes for open range. I'm just a killer and not too prejudice. But WTF does that have to do with knowledge of barrels. Charlie Sisk will hunt behind a fence, I guess he don't know [bleep] either.

No one here, or anywhere else, knows dick about anything firearm related except Boss_Hoss and his compadre Speedy.

I reckon the sooner the rest of us dsmf'ers figure that out, the better, huh?

yeah...

You said it not me Yankee! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've never even seen a high fence operation, nor do I have any desire to. High fenced operations do not exist in California.

I've never paid an outfitter, guide, or trespass fee to hunt.

I know just enough about "game management" to know that I want no part of it. God did a pretty good job of creating critters that can fend for themselves, and those are the types that I want to hunt.

Views like this don't exist behind a high fence:

Fair enough---and you made the statement before about �Game Management� and this in not the place to do it but that statement is just about the most ignorant thing I have ever read posted by someone who is a hunter as we are all responsible for this. You may not like what I have said but if you value hunting you better embrace this concept or the only hunting you may be doing is in your pants! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> If it were not for �Game Management� at the Private, State and Federal Level you would be doing most of your hunting at the zoo <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />. That is a stone cold fact my friend. Here is an excerpt from a letter from the US Department of the Interior to me dated 15 August 2005:

�I enjoyed meeting you and viewing the xxxxxxxx Ranch (xxxxxx County) last week. Your and the xxxxxxxxx family�s commitment to the conservation of natural resources was very evident. One topic of discussion was how to improve the habitat value portions of the Ranch for the endangered�------skip to closing-----� We certainly appreciate your interest in the partners for fish and wildlife program. If you wish to discuss potential GCW and other wildlife habitat improvement activities or have any questions, please call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx�

Xxxxx Xxxxxx
State Cordinator, PFW Program


If we as hunters and outdoorsmen don't do it then who will? Be responsible and put back a little of what you take. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Please tell me that didn't just push my project to the back of the line )

What project? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

DoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooH! (in my best Homer Simpson voice)

That's low man. Low. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hunters and Outdoorsman do a fine job,on the average.

It's the State and Federal Managers that are the clueless selfserving bureaucrats....................

+1 Stick....

Sorry guys I have worked with some of them for years and at the local level at least the ones I deal with are Outstanding!! I can understand how people who do not work with these people on a frequent basis can develop these types of opinions. Mine have been developed over years of frequent interaction. At the top of some of thse agencies they are baffons!

+2, 'Stick.

Yankee, huh?

Yeah... sure, dipsh!t, whatever you say...

I'm not talking personalities,I'm talking results.

Need some Wolves transplanted?.......................(grin)

Or Trapping banned,or Hounds banned or Does killed when numbers are already dismal?

Hey,how about some non-indigenous Fish species infecting Native strains?...................

Not only is he an expert on Custom BR rifles, he's an expert on Wildlife Management too....NOT <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


HBB

Hey...I wonder how long Yellowstone will burn,if we let it?!!?.....................(grin)

Jealous people can be ugly at times! Try and not let it show not saying I don't understand as you may be one of the "internet" shooters or hunters who only have experience thru reading the hunting and shooting rags. It's ok---take a deep breath.

Best way I know to get a Bars and Stars boy stirred up!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If you were a fish you have been caught and gaffed!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, whatever you say... dipsh!t...

So far I have gathered that:

1. you can see tooling marks with the naked eye in a Douglas barrel "but they don't matter".

2. A Douglas is good enough for hunting...but so is a rifle from Wal-mart that costs less than a Douglas blank.

3. A Douglas may foul more than the other top names, but it doesn't matter, it is the shooter that makes a gun accurate.

4. A Douglas costs near as much as the others, but there is no need to spend another $100 even though you are already $1500 deep.

5. Douglas is not usually listed in the winner's circle, but that is because the winners are lemmings. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Wrong, on a lot of counts....

Is everyone in your part of the world the abrasive and inarticulate offspring of first degree familial relations or are you just an exceptional example?


And why would I be jealous of a brain dead lout like you?


HBB

Careful HBB, ya might get accused of bein' a yankee by the geographically and historically illiterate ....

Then again, none of us know [bleep] anyway. Just ask him, he'll be glad to tell us how we haven't learned what we have, and how we can't know what we know... 'cause he disagrees, and well, you know......

I don't know you are the one who is jealous and dates his sister. Take a deep breath it will be ok!!

Hoss, your village called... not only are they one idiot short, but your bridge is unoccupied. Time you remedied both of those problems....

Just a wild guess here but I bet you are single lets say--not surprised but I can understand all of this pent up hostility you have.

I've been called a lot worse by a lot better men than that ignorant redneck peckerwood.

HBB

Let me guess you're about 14 or 15, your mom and dad are gone out for the evening and you're feeling your oats on the Internet....Its bedtime junior

HBB

+1 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

wtf does my marital status have to do with anything, you piss-ant, no-account, lowlife, dumbsh!t, troll?

And, yeah, I'm single, divorced, actually, but very much involved with an incredible woman the likes of whom you could never know... and I'll be marrying her soon... and living (quite happily) with her right now.

As for any pent up frustration, that's called stress... you know, the resistance of the urge one feels to knock the living [bleep] out of those you really need it... particularly inbred, horse-theivin', Texican lowlifes...

Your village is still on the line, dipsh!t... why don't you get on back under that bridge you crawled out from under... so the swamp things can have their daddy/uncle/brother/play-toy back, and so your hometown can have just one more inbred idiot to round out the lot...

I was always instructed to be nice to people who are not at the top of the gene pool--you are the quintessential embodiment of this advice. Peckerwood---I love it! I am trying to be nice!

Seems this [bleep] registered about the same time as a few other trolls (HEY, STETSON!), and his post count went up considerably when they went away... or changed names...

Go to bed Junior


HBB

How's the fishin' HBB..??

catchin' anything from under the bridge?

Looks like we have flushed out another TROLL. Maybe if we quit feeding it the varmint will slink back to its slimy lair.

HBB

Looks like I hooked a big SUCKER <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

Yeah so it seems.......

wildswalker, you gotten out for any more turkey huntin' lately?

Hmmmm--forgot our Meds today I see well maybe you should take them before the little lovely decides to send you along your way(she calls me precious when she catches her breath). I would suggest a strong ice coffee enema! You really should reconsider your decision to carry a firearm because you may not be mentally capable of handling the stress of such an awesome responsibility. Now go to bed and take your meds as tomorrow is a new day. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Now you have been caught, gaffed, and mounted and currently reside on the wall in my master bathroom over my toilet so you can see the water <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Not mammas prize boy are you--oh well have a nice night<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

wtf...

You are a piece of work, troll.

BT/DT on things you can only wonder at. And, you are gonna lecture me? TFF...

You couldn't handle me on my worst day, and I suspect you know it, too. Hide behind your imaginary friend Speedy, and all will be well in your little world. Under the bridge... troll...

HBB; You up for a little varmint huntin' this summer?

Sounds good .. I'll know more about my schedule, etc. in about two weeks Then we can work out the logistics.

HBB

Got out before daylight Saturday just to get soaked to the bone...box and slate ain't conducive to a downpour...

Birds were quiet down in the bottoms where I took my boy, talked to an old geezer out on the road when we left and he said he had one bird gobble once up on the ridge first off but that was it....

Try again next Sunday as I better work a shift this coming Saturday...<not grinnin'>

Mr. Hoss,
You're not doing yourself any favors here. You are making yourself look like an ass...No a JACKASS!!! Listen up...No one here is gonna take you seriously on anything that you post...Face it..You are an A-Hole...And no one wants to be talked to like you are spewing...
Spitt'n teeth comes to mind...This is advice,not a slam...Back off...You would never talk to VANimrod to his face like you are here...There are definatly more than a few here that think that I'm a A-Hole as well,and they don't talk to me or even jump in on anything that I an invloved in...another hint...
Bart

Hey Bart...how goes it down in Lone Star...?

Look maybe things are different where you live but I am not gay so please pick someone that is. Could be why she left you some ladies do not like to share! Make sure you work thru these not so latent tendencies to indirectly solicit male companionship or you may find yourself in need of Counsel again.

However, if you are threatening my person in a public forum such as this then you have indeed shown yourself to be unstable. Maybe this behavior warrants some more discovery--please do carry on! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

90 degrees with 90 percent humidity...
Worked 10.5 hours today and climed 3 poles...
I'm pooped <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />...
Bart

Well I'll have you know it's been up in the upper 70's here and near 80 tomorrow is called for....'bout time....

We need some more rain though....Saturday wasn't near enough.....first real rain we had in two weeks......

Dry.....

I think we're outta the snow for a couple months.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Snow? What the hell is that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
We got 8 inches of rain in the past week in a half...
These gray skies ain't good for my soul...
Summers' coming... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Bart

Hi guys, new to the forum and this is the first thread I have read...have enjoyed most of it. Do have a couple questions/things to say.

Are the threads routinely hijacked by people like the individual from Texas, who apparently is unable to engage in a gentlemenly disagreement without getting obnoxious?

As for Mr. Coleman's "lemming" comment, I think it was pretty close to spot on, and could identify with it. When I first got into accurate rifles, my main source of information was Precision Shooting. I chose a Hart barrel for my first (and second, and third, and...) "custom" rifle as that is what seemed to be winning the majority of the bench rest matches. In a couple of years, thanks in large part to Tony Boyer, Shilen seemed to be taking a large portion of hardware home. Strangely enough, at about this time, I ended up with a Shilen barrel. Of recently, I have noticed a number of Krieger's in the match results. I imagine Krieger presence in the BR game will continue to increase, and I will probably at some point end up with one. I don't think this shift is caused by Hart making a bad product, followed by Shilen, followed by etc. Someone has a hot shooting barrel or two made by company X, other people are going to try it, and if enough people try it, there's bound to be some winners. I'm seeing a lot of BAT actions popping up lately and winning. Same thing. Are they any better than Stolle's, Hall's, etc? I don't know...but they sure are pretty and I'd love to have one. PS used to, and still occasionaly does print equipment surveys/results from the BR game/SuperShoot, and it's interesting to watch the equipment trends. So I think the lemming analogy has a bit of merit. I'm one. Of course, Mr. Coleman, if you can come up with a different, but applicable analogy, that does not involve a rather stupid bird that throws itself off of cliffs and often plummets to it's death, it would do my already low self esteem a bit of good!

And Seely Masker's comment about the paddle wheel was hillarious! Now let's see...this Hall of Fame stuff. Seely had 4 BR Hall of Fame points. Speedy Gonzales has 13...making him smarter and better than Seely according to our Texas friends "Benchrest Hall of Fame Intellegence Quotient". But Seely built a few guns for Dr. Richard Maretzo, who has 14 points, 1 more than Speedy making the good doctor, smarter and better than Speedy. But wait...Smiley Hensley, who if I'm not mistaken shot Douglas barrels a couple years back, has 15 HOF points, making him smarter than all of the above. Alas, poor Mr. Coleman has 0 BRHOF points, and therefore does not know his arse from a #6 contour(Douglas) barrel, and is a total dumptruck as a gunsmith. But he is a gentleman, and can work on my guns anytime.

Now if you'll excuse me, this Kalifornia boy hears a Starbucks Non-fat Vanilla Latte calling my name.

Thanks,
Justin

Zebra;

Welcome to the 'Fire. Thread hi-jacking is a very common occurence. Stick around, you'll see it quite often.

What you won't see (hopefully) is the juvenile and obnoxious behavior of certain types of folks. They normally self-regulate, once no one else pays much attention to them any longer (dftft; "don't feed the f'king trolls").

Your observations about the BR competitions and merits of a certain gentleman gunsmith around here, tongue-in-cheek that they are, are spot on, and funny as hell...

I suspect you'll get along fine 'round here... even for a Kalifornicator.

Justin,
Many thanks for your kind words. At the risk of lowering your self esteem further I must, in keeping with trying to be accurate, point out that lemmings are not birds, but mammals, resembling, if my memory (or what's left of it) serves correctly, something akin to a cross between a rat and a woodchuck.

Anyway, I do appreciate you stepping into the fray. I had decided to just back out of it. There's an old saying that you shouldn't wrestle in the mud with a pig. You only get dirty and the pig is enjoying it.

By the way. One rule around the campfire is that you call me 'Mickey'. Good to have you here.
Warmest regards,

Zebra,

Welcome to the Fire. Good post, I liked it, and you obviously got the point and intent of Mr. Coleman's remarks. I guess some did not.

Yes, many posts get hijacked, and we do get the occasional troll.

I mainly sit back and politely ask for someone to pass the popcorn!

Chris

If you read the thread and what is actually in print you will not find any negative comments by the undersigned about any of the people (BR Shooters) you have mentioned save one. The comment made about said individual was hasty and was a little on the harsh side and would probably have rephrased the comment if the humor meant by his comment was fully appreciated at the time. When you make the inference that people are somehow placed in a higher level worth according to the number of HOF points by me that is an incorrect assumption and we both know what happens when you assume. The other comments were just poking fun at a few of the ignorant who do not know any better and that can be fixed given time as not everyone has the good fortune to have the do what I do (a Lot of money and time go into this activity and we are not talking about building or buying guns but rather buying, maintaining, the equipment and materials required to bring the land and habitat goals to fruition). If I am one of the few who puts my money where my mouth then so be it. Some just want to pay their money and kill something----no law against that as long as they comply with the regulations.

Talk is cheap and some of my views are jaded by the lease hunters who hunt on the fence lines which I have no issue with as it is free range rules and high fence is nothing more than hunting at the zoo. I have had many cited for trespassing that I have caught and when you see fences cut so that game can be drug under the bottom wire it makes one a little calloused. So in short I see a side of hunting some do not.


Enjoy your Starbucks and say hi to <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />Barbara <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dang, you rebel boys are brutal,lol. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

tyjtynjtynjty

For the edification of the masses <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Lemmings

HBB

Welcome to the Campfire. Its usually much more civilized than this thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

So what I'm getting is BH is a Zoo Keeper,who operates behind high fences and feels threatened by those that do not.

To "justify" that,he lashes at the free ranging folk that Hunt less a safety net?!!?

And to frost the cake,the Zoo Keeper needs to put his money where his mouth is?!!?

One can only imagine where both the money and the mouth have been and how they aligned.

This,is good stuff...........................

Your radar and mine must be locked on the same coordinates.

His initials are DM, he works in the aeronautics field and, I believe, works for Lockheed-Martin. I don't disagree with his points on high-fence hunting but don't really agree, either. Most high fence ventures contain many hundreds or thousands acres and those animals are, for all intents and purposes, free ranging. Still hard to hunt.

They're no different than planting food plots to attract deer and we all do that....or put out feeders.

I was taught to not be rude to others. Seems not everybody was.

I could care less,what someone does with their fence,on their property.

I've no hidden fence agenda,which causes me uncontrollable Fence Envy,that compells me to touch another man's fence in a malicious manner.

I can't care that someone wishes to ride herd on his feeder,until one of his fenced Critters strolls by within range.

I'm just digging the convoluted rant,by the Fence Meister and the obvious insecurities harbored within the Zoo Keeper's melon.

Also digging the lack of firsthand experiences,the feeble attempt to name drop and the oral fixations of the fiscal nature.

This,is good stuff.........................

'Stick,

You do have a way with words..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

G.H.

For the grey matter challenged the fences are barbed wire that keep cattle out or in---you know 4 legs and go MOOOO!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Keep fishing!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I needn't fish.......................

Stick, i have a twin in the DFW area, Prof at a University down there, seems the hot weather cooks everyones gray matter to mush, so you have to be gentle with the locals. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've no anti-Texan Agenda.

Fact is,the last one I met I handed my 338Ultra to,because he had broken his 7mm's synthetic injection stock.

Had never seen him before,saw he was in a pickle and handed him the rifle and a box of shells and sent him on his way.

He brought it back a week later and the Ultra had another dead bear under it's belt.

I believe his appreciation to have been genuine........................

Does anyone believe someone using the handle "Boss Hoss" has no ego issues?
Maytag

What about some azzhole that calls himself "Big Stick"?!!?

'Course,there is some rhyme and reason there................

i'd say boss hoss is, indeed, a teenaged ...




girl.
the exclamation points give her away. maybe college-age, but still on daddy's checking account. i figure the handle comes from the decal on her daddy's ford truck.
mercy, what a thread.

Hmmmmm---did not know you wanted to jump in here!

No quarter asked for none given!

Know what a teenage girl from Birmingham, Alabama says after her first "experience"? DADDY get off of me you are crushing my cigarettes!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

nope. not in my house.
i figure that started as an aggie joke, made the rounds as a tennessee joke, arkansas joke, west virginia joke, kentucky joke, blah, blah, blah, the usual appalachia-plus-texas circuit.
i stand by my exclamation point analysis. the proof is in the posts.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Demon Come Out--SMACK IN THE HEAD!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Close---UT not A&M. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

appreciate the jibe. figured i had a 50-50 chance of being right on the school - and the gender.

but the ignore list has grown by one more ...

Thank You!! I thought that would do it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This pissin' match still goin' on......?

Hell, Boss....you made your impression for shore......

Naw, she's gettin' tired....

How's the turkey huntin'?

Toms is henned up and quiet.......

If I had a say it should start two weeks earlier than it does......

One more reason to appreciate Appalachia....

saw a nice hen this morning driving in from the fishcamp.

Yep, and early and long season.... and rifle friendly.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Every time I took a rifle out in Va for turkey killin'...the dang things would want to sit on my lap...

Turkeys must be clairvoyant. Every time I go turkey hunting the critters pack up and move to the next county before I arrive at the hunt site. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Got to do some stuff....be back on later.....


Don't let the Trolls out from under the Bridge...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The Varmit probably won't show up for a bit lest she get her pointy little ears pinned back again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


HBB

You like to take pictures. Prove it!


Roads

Man.. Roads don't encourage him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

awww.... [bleep].... another elmo thread on the way...

The lemming analogy is interesting. You see it at the top of any human endeavor. There's an anecdote by George Attla, the chainsmoking Huslia Hustler who dominated sprint dog racing at the end of the last century. He said if he went to a race and stuck a lit cigarette up his dogs' azzes, next race he went to everyone would be sticking lit cigarettes up their dogs' azzes.

Hey Mickey,

I would have replied sooner, but had to spend some time on my therapists (us Kalifornians all have therapists) couch repairing my damaged inner psyche after the sound thrashing I got from you in regards to mammalogy, ornithology, and the way of the lemming. In my first post, defending the "Coleman BenchRest Lemming Theory", I cited trends in barrels to support this. Do you think barrel chambering methods have been affected by the Lemming Theory? The trend seems to be away from the old school chuck/steadyrest/tailstock method to the through the headstock method. Yet every gunsmith I've ever heard opine on chambering has said good guns can be built either way, and that one way isn't any better than the other. What do you think?

Big Stick...your comment about some azzhole who calls himself "BigStick" caused me to shoot a good part of my Starbucks vanilla latte out of my nose.

BossHoss...of all the tasteless, tactless, rude things you've said on this thread, your comment about me saying "hi" to Barbara is by far the worst. I would rather flatten my balls with a framing hammer than say hi to her. I think you have a serious misconception about us Kalifornians being all uppity, wacko, left wing elitist. I't just not true...most of us are uppity, wacko, left wing elitist, but a few of us are what the rest of the 49 would call normal. A few of us even like to hunt and shoot. And no...not behind game fences. In fact, this Kalifornian doesn't hunt big game with a rifle. I hunt strictly with a traditional recurve bow...which means I'm into it for the hunt...and I eat of lot of vegetables as a result. Kalifornia is a beautiful state...the high Sierras, the beaches, the forests of NorCal. The problem is LA and SF. If one had a giant jig saw, and could cut out these two problem areas and set them adrift in the Pacific, you might not want to live anywhere else.

I gotta go...I'm late for a tanning booth appointment,
Justin

damn...... he's good.....

This one is gonna fit in pretty well 'round here....

Even if he is a Kalifornicator from the People's Republik of Kalifornistan... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

+1

badger

Yep, he's Good <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

HBB

Yes I know about the Golden Bear State---spend a lot of time out there on business. Tough to decide but if you held me to it-----San Diego out towards Scripps Ranch. Prices are nuts but may be stabilizing a bit now. If I had unlimited funding--------I would have a house on the hill side above the PCH in Laguna and a BIG ASSED Boat (dual Cats desalination etc) in Newport Beach. Almost moved out there 10 years ago but with what I like to do it would not be possible given land prices and the politics that exist. I guess the B comment was pretty ugly and I will apologize for it as the hammer sounds painful�you are not so upset that you are going to need therapy are you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />? I was out there almost 2 months ago in LA---best frigging restaurant I have ever eaten at period was---Patina!! I go to Burlingame some as well---- great food and wines you cannot even get here but a little flakey for me.

Nope you would not have to twist my arm real hard to move to Cali but then I would not be able to hunt and shoot any weekend I wanted.

nice, zebra, nice.
the specific detail about the type of hammer really painted a picture ...

gotta like a man who paints the whole picture of self torture. should be one of the gang fast round here

Justin,
I chamber through the headstock. I simply don't trust a steady rest but I suppose there are those rests that are spring loaded that work. Mine are the ones that came with the lathe that have bronze tips. As the barrel turns in them the wear that takes place always lets some slack get in the setup and that means the barrel can flop around to some degree and the chamber gets bigger at the back. Can't stand it.

I know you've heard people say that they had a Wilson seater that their cases would stick when they seated a bullet. I'd be willing to bet those were fired in a chamber that was cut in a steady rest. I have never chambered a rifle where the cases would stick in a Wilson seater......never. From what I read I think most benchrest gunsmiths chamber in the headstock.

You must recognize that gunsmiths are a 'quirky' bunch and are loathe to change their ways. I'm not much different because I finally found a method that works for me with minimum 'fuss' and simply don't see any reason to change. No lemming blood in my veins.........much. I've bought a ton of 'gadgets' when shooting benchrest simply because a good shooter was using it and I figgered that he had settled on what he considered the best and I just let him try things out for me. That was smart of me, wasn't it? I only spent fortyleven hundred dollars outsmarting them guys.

Mickey,
Thank you for the response. What you said makes total sense to me. I just chambered my first barrel a couple of weeks ago(thunderous applause erupts), and used the chuck/steady/tailstock method, as I have a big lathe and the barrel was for an XP-100. My steady has the brass pads also, but I stayed on that steady like a bum on a balogna sandwich throughout the fitting/chambering process. I had done enough prior experimenting with old barrels to know that if you don't, you'll start hearing "clack-clack-clack"...which would be mildy disconcerting when one is trying to do precision fit/chamber job. I must have done it right/got lucky as my Interapid tenth indicator showed about a tenth runout in the chamber when it was all said and done. I then immediately began engineering a roller bearing retrofit for my steady. However, I will probably sell my current lathe and purchase something smaller, which would allow through the headstock chambering. Both chambering methods might turn out equaly accurate rifles, but the through the headstock method, to me, appears to be the way to go. It is rigid, and one does not have to worry about the variables of the steady rest and tailstock. Plus, it is basically single set up machining...which if one wants dead nuts, that is the way to go, IMHO.

Thanks,
Justin

Justin,
In chambering a barrel for an XP there's just no way around using a steady rest. I'll use one when forced but that's the only time and I stay on top of it just as you did.

Grizzly makes a 12x36 belt drive lathe with a 1 7/16 spindle bore that I would love to own. It's about $2100 and I'd bet it will do a good job. You really don't need a SpaceShuttle Special in a lathe to do quality work.

I've been on the road for a few days and see this thread has some interesting twists to it.

I've some time, so I am gonna reveal my thoughts/experiences in and around Douglas. Not trying in any way or shape or form to bring people around to my way of thinking. Not that we would ever be for doing that on this forum eh!?

I respect all thoughts on this thread, well most all should I say...(grins) and of course appreciate the same with mine.

So, to the point:

I've been around my fair share of tubes over the years, and have worn out/shot out more than my fair share. I've worked with a lot of different ones, and like some out there have to come to opinion via my experiences.

I've come to really like Schneider, Lija, Krieger, Shilen, Hart and Chanlin.

I've heard tons of good on this forum of PN and my old Mashburn is gonna make a trip there this Dec for a new tube.

My personal thoughts on what makes a great tube is this.

I want a tube that will break in quickly and clean up well and shoot well right from the get go.
I want a tube to be able to have a good life and during the life to be able to come clean quickly and to shoot accurately and to my personal standards. And lastly I want a tube that is gonna end well.

I do not look for advice from those out there that have not had the time in behind the trigger to wear out tubes.

And, quite honestly I really only want to talk with and hear opinions from those that have done this with multiple tubes and from multiple makers. If people have not worn multiples of them out and from multiple makers then I personally feel that they should sit back and listen. Just my thoughts.

Note I did not say those have lots of rifles tubed up I personally want to hear from those that are wearing them out. Heck I know tons of folk with lots of ponies in the corral. That aint tough to find in this world. I care to hear from those that have road them from start to finish.

I am more than sort of amazed at supporters of this and or that tube when they say "look at this group and see how mine shoots"...who cares!

Now as for my personal experience (this does not count the ones that others have owned, and I've more than one friend that has a Douglas in the corner), I've had 4 Douglas tubes.

One was a 416 Taylor which found a very good home well b4 I could give it a serious go. And it was one of the best chuck rifles I ever road.

The others were a 25/06 and two 7 Mashburn Supers.

All 3 of them went pretty much like this.

Broke in a bit rough and never truly got around to cleaning up in a manner in which I was personally comfy with.

None of the 3 shot worth a hoot until I had somewhere close to 150 rounds thru them.

All 3 of them shot quite well until I neared the 1K mark. Although none of them really ever cleaned up the way I liked during this period, and have come to expect from other tube makers.

All 3 of them puked and died b4 I hit the 1K round mark.

Now it could be I just had the 3 worst tubes that Douglas ever put out and it was just a bad deal. But I just don't believe this is the case. But....I could be wrong. I think I've been wrong b4..

I did call the people at Douglas and tried to have a nice and professional conversation with them. Now keep in mind that to them I am a nobody, this is to say that I don't do business with them on a fairly continual basis as a smith would and or could.

I started the conversation off in a very nice and inquisitive manner, and the fella came out of the corner right off on the fight just like we would if we were in the Octogon.

I told him how all 3 tubes had whimpered very easily and was curious as to what he thought about it.

He said in a pretty rough and non professional manner, "hey I've burned out STW tubes in 75 rounds or less so shut up!".

Personally I found him to be a world class butt and if he had been in the same room as me I would of been sorely tempted to revert to my days of youth and bitch slapped him silly!

Ah but age has given me some good things I guess so I shut up and decided not to ever deal with them again and to do my part to steer others in a different way.

Some say, don't let your friends drive drunk, I don't let my friends drive Douglas!

This is just the way I look at tubes, to those of you driving them and liking them I say more power to you.

I've been to the ball game with them and have had 3 strikes plus our little conversation so I want no part of them anymo.

Life for me is too short to shoot/carry a tube that I don't care for.

Not trying to change anyone over to my way of thinking, it is your cheddar and you spend it how you wish.

Shoot straight, and make it your best day!

Mark D

Mark my experience varys from your in that I have only owned one Douglas an air guaged XX and it shoots in the .3's.The only barrel that I have had a less than positive results with was a Krieger match grade hand lapped 270 barrel,but I have other Krieger barrels that were great and I still consider Krieger a top barrel maker

Mark, I couldnt have said it in a more clear manner.

I guess my interpretation of a custom built gun is different than a lot of Douglas shooters here. I think basically, "custom" means a gun with an aftermarket barrel. So you are paying for the barrel, and the rest of the price is the smith's labor to chamber, true action and install. Your smith is going to charge you the same amount to install a Douglas as he will to install a Lilja etc. So why not buy the best barrel?

Who makes Hart's barrels? I have heard that Douglas Makes Hart barrels and that Hart hand lapps. What's the scoop

That's not accurate. Hart makes their own barrels. There have been instances when Hart had an order for a barrel they didn't make and they would get one from Douglas but that doesn't happen very often. I was told this by a person at Douglas.

Thanks

I may have said something like that once? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

While Dan's tubes are smoother,I cain't quantify that they "outshoot" Douglas...................

Yeah, the Savage barrel on my 30-06 feels like 60 grit, and is a copper fouling monster, yet it shoots sub MOA. That being said, I still wouldn't opt for a Savage barrel on a custom rig, LOL.

IMHO,Douglas and Lilja are largely birds of a feather and that isn't condemnation...................

But so are a Chevette and a Corvette,lol.
The thing I cant get over with this issue is the miniscule price differance between the differant makes. Why not buy the best? Why have to settle for a barrel that fouls? Why not have the piece of mind that the barrel your buying is going to clean easy and shoot well the first time?

I've learned a few things over time and my preferences now are based solely on my firsthand accounting.

I certainly wouldn't rank either Douglas or Lilja as "the best",despite the disparity in their pricing.

PacNor remains my favorite,I think highly of Hart,Shilen seems sorta hit and miss and I'd like to try a few more Rock tubes.........................

Curious as to your thoughts on krieger?

I've no Kreigers in the stable and can't really know why. Obviously they enjoy a very nice reputation and it would suprise me if the wares,didn't rate the billing.

Might throw one on the next 223AI or 22-250AI,for the hell of it......................

On my competition and hunting rifles Krieger and Broughton make up 90% of my barrels with Krieger getting the majority by far.

Stick-do I hear the possible making of that 22/250 AI 8 Twist in a Krieger coming up.......It would be a gas to build and then go and blow up Marvin the Moose with it come fall (or at least a Sitka).

Just a thought

Mark D

I've most the parts for the next 22-250AI,on hand(modest contour/length,housed in a Classic handle) and am contemplating if I need another(beefed contour/24" length,housed in an A5).

I'm bad that way,when I get going on a chambering,I typically build 3 rifles to support it. A small,medium and large.

Sister doting upon Momma's Pink 25-284,sorta took some heat away from fretting her Deer Rifle,so I've managed to reach the top of the prority list,once again.................(grin)

Should add,I've already done a pair of 22-250AI "mediums",but both were twisted 14"....................

Then I think you should be on the phone and order yourself a 8, you got a birthday coming up (like we need a reason) and should spoil yourself just a bit......grins

Think they'll buy into it?

Mark D

Mike makes a wicked good 22 caliber tube. Food for thought.

Don't tell him I sent you though, he hates making them.

have had five Douglass barrels done, never had one that would not shoot as soon as I found the right recipe.

The OP's been waiting 15 years for your opinion. Some like to thoroughly mull a question over before answering - I guess.

Well he did me a favor by digging up an old thread, otherwise I'd likely not have seen it. I'm barrel shopping.