This post is intended to help others survive a cold wet night or at least think about being prepared for the the worst. Salish had a good post on emergency nite out. It made me realize that even though I carry at all times survival gear in my day pack I really don't know how long I can survive. I was hoping that if others don't read Salish's post on emergency night out that they might take the time to participate on this post. I'm hoping that this post lasts a while and can maybe help save a life.
If at all possible if members could take pic's of their survival kits/gear that they carry in day packs and list suggestions for surviving a night or two or three in wet cold conditions that would be great. Even if you get some time this summer or spring or whenever to actually set up a shelter made from survival tarps blankets etc and post a pic that would be great. I think this backpacking/hunting forum here at the fire is my favorite forum of all. I have myself alot to learn about survival/surviving a cold wet nite and really look forward to seeing pics of day/packs and survival kits/gear. I have two boys I'm trying to teach as much about the outdoors and I have alot to learn. I'm very busy hunting/working and will myself try to post pics soon of what I carry for survival in my day pack. Thanks for participating Chuck
I keep this in my truck too when not in the field just incase bad things happen. I pack the stuff inside a near water proof little homemade Go-bag. Sil nylon body and gym bag strap. 3.4 oz. A extra bag is good for tons of stuff. It makes a nice daypack liner.
I included a red stuff sack so my critical gear will be easy to find after the bag is taken out of Daypack. 0.7 oz. This makes the bag more water proof for critical gear and a small bag is always good for forage and water storage etc.
A. Medical kit. It is a Daypack but I still wanted a semi good medical kit.
B. Light. The Aurora will give about 100 hours of usable light per set of batteries. I have two sets. The Web site says the light works 160 hours on low but I don�t know what they call usable light. In reality it is 100 hours.
1. Princeton Aurora Headlight including batteries. 2.8 oz 2. Small key LED light. 0.2 oz 3. Extra three AAA batteries. 1.2 oz
C. knives
1. Swiss army knife. This is one of their smaller models but it has all the stuff I use and none of the worthless junk than is never used by anyone. 2.1 oz 2. Gerber 600 larger Folder 4 oz
D. Fishing Gear. I know. It is silly but what the heck.
1. Drop line system. It has 30 yards of 6 lb test and 15 feet of near unbreakable Kevlar Line. The Kevlar line is for snagging fish and it makes some good snares. A drop line works by tossing the line out and winding it back to reel in. Total for drop line and tackle box is 1.5 oz
2 . Pill box Tackle kit. I like using small pill boxes to hold small gear like fishing hooks etc. They are made to be resistant to opening if dropped and sliding on flat surfaces. I have some small sinkers, a silver lure and assorted sized hooks including a treble hook for snagging and sizes down to #14. Why such a small hook? Most streams or small ponds have tinny dace or minnows. Being lower on the food chain their numbers are much greater than bass or trout. The only way to catch such tinny fish is with a fish trap or very small hook. It takes a good number for a meal but their numbers tend to be great
1. 100% Deet replant small pack size. 1.2 oz 2. Cheap camo face net. Anyone that thinks these cheap face nets will provide any protection on their own against Mosquitoes when asleep is dead wrong. But spraying the face net with Deet makes it very effective. In fact it is far more effective than spraying the Deet directly on your face as it remains on the bug netting longer and you don�t have that crap in your eyes. 0.7 oz
I am going to post a photo of the next 4 items. No real point in making separate photos of items most people have seen.
1. 50 feet camo cord. I got this more for the holder that makes a good drop line. But the cord is ok. I guess anyone could include the fishing line and Kevlar Line in the cordage list too. 1.9 oz
I. Navigation. I packed a small compass/thermometer combo 0.5 oz However I will upgrade this. Have a much better one in my main pack.
J. Signaling. If lost and need help I included a plastic signaling mirror. 0.6 oz. My headlight can flash for a night visual signal. I don�t care much for audio type signals.
K. Shelter System/Rain gear combo. Here is what I have come up with. You don�t get to see a heated poncho tarp every day. Shelter is 1 lb 3.3 oz for Poncho, Bivy, 4 Ti stakes and Thermal Blanket.
[img]http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n220/Daytraderwon/minibobshelter.jpg[/img] 1. A Golite Poncho tarp in sage green. Looks like a good natural color that will not stand out. 11.3 oz with stuff sack. I took 4 Ti tent stakes with my home made covers to protect the rest of my gear from the sharp ends. Just use fish tank air tubing. 1.6 oz 2. DWR Bivy/Bag liner. I can fill it up with grass etc for a sleeping pad and not worry so much about getting damp. Or if I could make a grass bed and fill the bivy with leaves or grass to make a blanket. If the bugs are heavy I can crawl into the bivy and put my Deet covered face net on. I have had to do this in Maine. It worked but there must have been a million mosquitoes so they kept me up anyways with the buzzing however I would have been sucked dry. No joke. 4.4 oz with stuff sack. Emergency thermal blanket. 1.9 oz.
1. Freezing to death is what scares me. I like to have a fire even in rain or snow without getting wet. Yea this is a Daypack but have no plains on dying of exposure if lost so I wanted a warmer shelter. The stove is made out of Ti foil and the pipe is made out of Stainless Foil. Everything is held together by Stainless wire. The heat output is totally insane. The stove body is about 12 inches long by 8 wide. I have an inline spark screen and a Ti damper. Total weight for Stove, 4-foot pipe, Wire rings, Ti Damper and spark arrestor is only 1 lb 10.7 oz plus the stove has an extra sil stuff sack that could be used for something else.
How does it all come together? I set up the Poncho as an A frame with the long length as the A frame�s width. This way I could lower the A frame to the ground and have room to sit up if the outside temp is very cold. I would need to sleep at an angle but could still stretch. In the photos I raised the A frame up some as the weather is warm. If there was lots of snow I would kick snow around the side and pile snow and brush to block one end. The stove would then be fired up. During cold nights a stove under a tarp will take the chill out of the air and dry a person off even in snow or rain. All I need do is tie the poncho�s head section closed to fully water proof the shelter.
1. 3 packs of MRE matches. 0.3 oz 2. Bic lighter sealed 0.8 oz 3. 25 cotton balls soaked in Vaseline w/ zip lock bag. 3.5 oz 4. Small Magnesium fire block with flint and striker. I am really more interested in the flint and sparker to ignite the cotton balls when the lighter fails.
1. Frontier Emergency Water Filter system. Will filter up to 20 gallons 0.8 oz. Just in case I need to drink and run. 2. Potable Aqua Tabs. Not the best tasting tabs and I didn�t have the neutralizer tabs but heck better than nothing and I could always used charcoal to sweeten the water. 1.2 oz 3. Platypus Water 80 oz water bag. 1.2 oz
1. Ti bowl 1.8 oz. It is large and works well for about everything. 2. MRE Spoon. Why not for only 0.2 oz
All this stuff comes in around 6.5 lbs. If it is summer the stove is not packed. If winter the Bug stuff is not packed but I do put a little sleeping hat inside the Daypack. I carry a canteen on my belt and toss in some trail mix before a hike. However starvation does not seem like a real risk but a little food can't hurt. Honestly I don't expect to catch and eat fish. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Well heres what I pack for what I think I might need just to make it through a cold wet night. I never leave the truck without my pack. And as I think it was Kute that said "not even to take a crap" I actually take my pack to "crap" cuz the toilet paper is in my pack! I started carrying a survival kit after a friend of mine jumped out of his truck to try to get a shot at a big buck. We didn't see him for 3 more days. he ended up losing a couple toes on each foot and fought for his life in the hospital for the next couple weeks. He isn't the same man he used to be and never has set foot in the woods again. And that was 11 yrs ago. I have never since that day left the truck without my day pack. I still have alot to learn about shelters and lightweight clothing and bivy/sleeping bags that are light enough to take in my day pack.
I keep in my pack at all times: stockingcap woolsocks/gloves survival tarp 100ft rope/cord saw waterfilter and purifier drops matches/lighter/newspaper/wax-woodchip discs flint,wood, magnesium scraper survival tool asprin/aleeve bursh trimmers with duct tape wrapprd on each handle gause trail marking tape hand held raido flashlight headlamp extra batteries for all three above compass My day pack is a Blacks Creek Alaskan 3200cbi
I'm hoping that with others suggestions I can learn more!! thanks Chuck
woodswalker, awesome you got some great stuff that I need to add to my kit. Really like the stove and cotton balls. I have heard that steel wool will burn easy also. The sil-poncho is also something I've been thinking about. Thanks for the pics..CD
The cotton balls soaked in Vaseline are by far the best. Each one will burn for 5 minutes even when wet. They don't need a match or lighter to start. Just a spark will do. I pull them apart before lighting. They work well for chapped lips too when the Chapstick turns up missing. Only down side is they stick to my fingers when very cold. Kinda something to think about when lighting the stove. I put one on a twig first.
Oh nice set up you have. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I would toss in a homemade med kit. Mine has helped with tons of cuts, stings and other less dangerous but more common things that happen on a day hike. The Imodium AD inside my kit is a must have.
That TI bowl is good for melting snow. Nothing sucks more than eating snow for water. It just helps drop your core temp faster. Warm water is a big help.
I did see some socks in your pack. I have room for some wool gloves that I add with the sleeping hat in winter but need to toss some socks in the thing. I forgot all about them. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
8x8 tarp (soon to be hex3 type shetler without the pole) 2 yards of fleece material that is 54" wide - compacts nicely and pretty light. coleman peak stove, gas and 1 dehydrated meal water rain jacket extra warmth layer (torso) winter hat extra gloves, socks dragging rope and smaller rope for tarp if need be logging tape, leatherman, extra compass, flashlight and extra batteries, knife sharpener, first aid kit, bag balm, matches, emergency blanket.
I also use an old camping mat, cut into 3rds that rolls up and gets strapped to the outside of my pack for a seat when on stand. Should I need to stay in the woods it will provide better insulation than the ground alone at least for my torso.
Once you get wet, especially in freezing weather, the most important things are lots of high-energy food, and the will power to keep moving to burn calories. I have known several hunters and outdoorsmen since 1972 who were very experienced, but died of hypothermia in the mountains or after falling overboard in the winter.
When you are cold, the tendency is to curl up and hunker down, and if the situation is not appropriate for that, you will die right there. A few years ago, several US Special Forces died in Florida in weather that was damp and in the 50 degree range.
I always carry 10,000 calories and 200 gram of protein in nuts, sunflower seeds, roasted soybeans, protein bars like Cliff. I also carry some dried soup, rice mix or Kraft macaroni and cheese that I can cook up for at least one hot meal in my 20 oz cup with handle or mess kit. My light mess kit is aluminum, old Swedish military, with stand, alcohol stove, fuel bottle and two pots all nested together. It also works as a twig stove.
Just my thoughts, but I would trade the matches for a second see-thru lighter, use Wet Tinder (tm) as a fire starter (absolute best I've used yet even in hard rain), and ditch both the saw and pruner, altogether.
I'd probably lose the metal-match thingy too and go with a 3rd see-thru lighter in a totally separate pocket if I was feeling truly paranoid. I had a ton of redundant fire-building gear for awhile too. Now that I've been into this more, it's all frivolous over-thinking, to me at least.
If 2 decent butane lighter go south at the same time, your luck already ran out before you stepped foot into the woods.
OK, this is just my opinion, so here goes. First, I adjust the contents of my pack to fit the area where I'm going. There is a big difference between surviving a night in the low desert where it is very dry, only gets down to the low 50's, and fire wood is abundant and doing same in an above timber line area with a storm coming in. Second, I leave everything out that I'm not sure I'll need. Why ? Because if you get into this "I'll take it just in case" attitude, you are going to be packing all sorts of stuff. That can lead to an attitude of leaving the whole pack behind instead of just taking a few things you must have. Lastly, I like to take stuff that will do double duty. Clothing is a good example. A warm cap or baclava. Gloves even though you may not need them. A extra warm fleece top. Synthetic, fast drying base layers that stay dry by allowing moisture to pass through it. And, above all, a first class shell. Lastly, be aware of where you are, what the weather is doing and what you need to do to stay safe. You can do much better if you get down into the timber rather than let nightfall find you on an exposed ridge with the wind kicking up. Start preparing to spend the night, or simply add clothing before you chill or get wet from the rain. And before it gets dark. I'm indebted to guys like Okanagan for showing me a few simple tricks. A thin foam pad, like a cut down, 5/16th's inch ensolite pad isn't a 2-3 inch mattress, but it is far lighter and more compact. It will keep the cold out. A nylon tarp or a light bivy sack in a semi sheltered grove of trees, or rocks, can be alot more comfortable than you'd think. Put all of your extra clothing on, and use his secret weapon - 7 hr., tear open chemical hand warmers. If you brought some extra food and have a water supply, you will be fine. If you can build a fire, so much the better. Make it 5-6 feet long and stock lots of wood before you turn in. My last suggestion, is try all of this out when the weather is nice and see how well it works for you. You may want to adjust the basics a bit. The bottom line is, you don't need much. If you plan well, pick stuff that can do double duty, and use your head, it works. Heck, just going to the trouble of finding a thick grove of trees, in lee of some natural feature and you are a long way to spending the night dry and warm. E
I have been through that experience at Eglan Florida and can tell you that staying dry and fed is the key. We were so wet and cold that we just shook for 10 days even though it was only 45 degrees. I was more comfortable at 10 degrees when I served on the DMZ in Korea. I routinely hump the following if I'm going to be any distance from our camp. I figure worst case is either an injury or a down elk that requires an overnight stay. Rather hump it than be without. You just get used to humpn the ruck and consider it part of the gig.
One Green Arc Teryx Ruck with 2 quart bladder.
Army Goretex set
Extra set of seal skin socks
Polypro Balaklava and extra glove inserts
Army goretex sleeping bag cover
One ultra light 3/4 length therma rest
One poncho liner
550 cord
one or two MRE
usual crap like knife, lighter, compass, GPS, topo map, folding saw, pogie bait, handi wipes, trihex heat tabs, 10 -12 rounds of ammo, steiner 8x30 binos, one laser RF, one weapon
The TIG stove burns longer and puts out more heat. The Kifaru stove is faster to set up and more durable. Also easier to cook on. For camping I use the Kifaru or my homemade stove. But the TIG is the only stove made that can fit in my little E&E and would be a life saver. I am looking at building a front annex for the ponch and a closed off back out of Sil tarp material. This would make me 100% cold proof. All I need do is keep the stove running and it would be clear over 100 inside the shelter at any temp. Or maybe a paratarp and annex butI don't have the money. For maybe 40 bucks in materials and a helping hand from my family I could have a total heated poncho A-frame.
Edit.
The door just slides on the top. I am going to drill some holes inside the door to make it take in air without screwing around with it. My TIG is a test stove so maybe the production model door is a bit better. Bare bones is what this stove is all about. Once I make a way to close off both sides of my poncho and put the pipe though my TIG stove jack the bigger risk would be over heating.
WW Looks like a scookum stove..I'm putting together the Sierra Designs Origami 4 with an added stove port. The TiG might be the stove to fit the intended use of this fast and light tipi. It's about the size of a six man Kifaru... Thanks for the pics....Bud
Stillhunter, The meat/bone saw can double as a tool for making shelter. I always carry the brush shears cuz I hunt in the blackberry devils club capital of the world. I just put duct tape on it to help adhere the gause if injured. But I hear ya and appreciate your input. I also carry an extra fleece coat. but now you all got me thinking about a small lightweight ground pad and also I'll be thinking about some sort of stove. to cook some rice or broth. My pack has a platypus 3 litre bladder. I also carry some meal replacement bars. I'm looking into some sort of sil shelter/poncho.
if you all have stove suggestions I'm all ears. someone mentioned a stove that will also burn wood?? Would a Pocket rocket and small canister be a good Idea? Whats the smallest type of pot or kettle I should get. I'd really like to keep it light. I never hunt without my day pack. Period. I also like the TI stakes. I hear ya on the match books. But I always grab a few at the quickstop in case. I keep em' in a dry container. But I'll add another lighter. I look forward to many more suggestions and pics!! Thanks
I have looked at that Tarp before. I think when set up as an enclosed tipi type tent it is much smaller than my old 6-man. But I can't get a fix on size for the best stove set up. Get the TIG stove jack. Worth the 35 bucks. I still like the Box type stoves for general camp life but thing the rounded ones are better for heat.
I'm glad to see that my daypack is similar to others. I have people tell me all the time that I am carrying too much stuff. As for head lamps, I have started using on that clips onto the brim of a cap. It is a LED that weighs 1.24 oz with 4 lithium batteries in it. Distributed by www.trailblazerproducts.com No way to attach it to a toque but I wear a ball cap even in winter and wear the toque over top. Brim helps protect my eyes from branches etc. And now holds my light.
Yeah I was just out in the garage looking at the 4 dogs and I think I'll start with that first trial. What's the turn around on the stove jack from TIG?
STILLHUNTER 73 - "If 2 decent butane lighter go south at the same time, your luck already ran out before you stepped foot into the woods."
Nahhh. That's when you pull out your old handy-dandy, works-every-time, won't-blow-out ZIPPO and fire it up, lighting your firestarting tender. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
To me, BICs are okay, so long as there isn't any wind to blow out the little flame before you can catch your tender. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
SUGGESTION : If you want a never-fail lighter which will save your bacon in the most extreme lighting conditions, stick a road flare in your pack. They'll light wet wood, etc., in a snowstorm.
Don't want to carry the weight?? Just cut one in half, seal the cut end with Krazy Glue, or like, opposite the striker fuse, tape over that glued end with a bit of electrical tape and then you're in business.
I've been in two situations where I desperately needed a fire RIGHT NOW!! and the only way I could get a fire started with the very damp/wet wood around was with my road flare.
I'm not sure but I think there are some road or boat flares out there now that are smaller. (?????)
One of the most interesting additions to a survival pack I have seen is a common or garden spring rat trap...The guy who showed it me was ex Rhodesian Light Infantry soldier & reckoned it had fed him often while operating in the bush...Depending on how where he set it and what he baited it with, he caught all manner of small critters...He also prefered to use his fishing kit for catching birds...very cruel indeed, but understandable in some of the situations he was in....
When I am out for a long time, I carry small, light net, 5x5 feet. It can be used to catch bait fish, eating fish, and birds.
A Conebear trap is light and will kill squirrels and rabbits instantly.
I always carry some fishing tackle. Mono, but also some 30-lb Spiderwire. No time for sport.
I also make my own snares from black nylon coated stainless steel saltwater wire fishing leader, with a large swivel on one end, and a smaller one that will pass through it on the other end, for tying to a branch.
Pretty good thread going here. I think this may be my first post here, but I have poked around a bit. Usually don't do a lot of posting anywhere except the Kifaru boards, and not a great deal there. After reading about the contents of some of the daypacks I went out into my shop and did a little playing around with some of my gear, just to see what I could stuff into the little pack I carry as a day pack.
In the Kifaru E&E, you can get the following:
Kifaru ParaStove SuperTarp/Annex Titanium pot and cup, spork, fuel canister and salt and pepper Pocket Rocket Stove In a small pullout I carry the following:
lighter compass speedy sharp Blast Match and film canister of Vaselined cotton balls Gps Scorpion flashlight head lamp Swiss army knife Leatherman
If you ditch the Super Tarp /Annex and substitute it with the original paratarp, you can also get a 1 liter nalgene bottle , head net, stocking cap and gloves, small bag of gravel and 2 packs of ramen noodles.
On the back I have added some shock cord threaded through the Pals webbing so I can strap on a military poncho. I also stick my Tomahawk through the compression straps.
You can also do away with the stove and tarp and substitute a Hennessee Hammock and a little bit of other stuff for a Summer kit. I have a list of stuff I carried on an overnight canoe trip this past summer if that interests anyone. I know this is kind of a winter gear thread.
Hopefully this info helps someone make a more informed descision, or saves sombody the trouble of spending hard earned money on things that might not fit in there current setup.
I didn't know you can fit a parastove and ST with annex in the E&E. One good thing about these small heated shelters is that they make you 100% safe from any cold. Just keep the stove running and overheating is the greatest risk. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Take a look at those Golite Sil ponchos on sale. I am getting some for holiday gifts but pack one all the time. Only 10oz.
I am at this point going to add the Go-lite poncho and The canister with vasalined cotton balls. I gotta decide on a small cooking stove and pot. Thanks again for the ideas.
That Golite poncho is a good deal. I'm tempted to buy it myself. Many uses for it.
Many are covering good material, and I find myself repeating stuff I've posted over the past few years. But I'll break my thoughts into two long posts and add them here.
Like somebody else posted, I don�t carry as much stuff as a good many here, and a lot of it is used routinely most days, not just carried for emergency use only. A big leaf size garbage bag is one of my basics. It will make a poncho as some have said, or cut open will make a ground sheet or small tarp. I�ve used them as ground sheets a lot, as improvised rain shelters several times also, hunkering out a rain storm under a tree or bush. Good trees are hard to find in sub alpine and of course non-existent higher.
I have two systems, one in my pockets that always are with me, and the other in a small daypack I have nearly always. My goals are to stay dry, stay warm, be able to start a fire if viable and to stay warm enough and dry enough to survive without a fire. My first line of survival gear is the clothes and layers that I wear to hike or hunt. With no cotton, a good insulation layer and weatherproof outer shell you are off to a good start in surviving a wet night.
The shirt & pants pocket gear has at minimum a butane lighter and a troxane tablet, compass and pocket knife which are part of my usual hunting gear. In a Gore-Tex parka pocket a garbage bag, 1/3 cup stainless steel measuring cup with an envelope of soup or oatmeal wadded up in it, and usually that is in a Ziploc with another envelope or two, a candle stub, troxane, waterproof matches, some Band-aids, Tylenol II and a space blanket. A couple of tear open chemical hand warmers and my usual cover for head, hands and neck go in the parka pockets if I�m not wearing them.
Toque (stocking cap), gloves or mittens, etc. are part of my constant use items. I hunted in falling snow yesterday and put on and took off my toque, neck gaiter and gloves four or five times as I walked and got hot or sat and got cold. My Taiga rain pants fold to the size of a bar of soap and sometimes I have those in my parka pocket.
Stepping up to daypack basics I always carry some way to insulate myself from the ground, usually a thin closed cell foam pad against my back. Some of mine are larger than needed to sit on, and others are folded double and open to almost a � length pad. As others have indicated, insulating yourself from the cold ground is more important than having a blanket or sleeping bag over you. In addition I usually carry an ultra light tarp as mentioned elsewhere, of spinnaker/kite cloth. Sometimes carry stove, Titanium pot, water filter, GPS, etc. but not always for any of these. Ditto for a bigger first aid kit, Moleskin, more food, etc.
From reading a survival situation in a plane crash, I got an idea that I partially used myself one night and now have improved, but it requires a fire. Heat rocks, then roll them under you as you sit or hunker with a poncho type shell around you that reaches to the ground. The heat from the rocks will rise, warming you, and be trapped inside the shell. Could be a long night, with little dozes at best between changing hot rocks, but would get heat from the fire to you more efficiently and keep a person alive. A pad on a small stump etc. would help to sit on.
I carry usually at least three ways to start a fire. My waterproof matches are in a plastic prescription bottle, separated from a strip of wet or dry emery cloth/sandpaper.
I only carry a saw when I�m planning on cutting antlers off, or sometimes when predator hunting and want to improve on nature a bit by trimming limbs. Ditto for pruning shears, excellent for improving impromptu stands, but wouldn�t carry them normally for survival. Each of us has different priorities.
Like Kutenay said, it�s best not to count on having to start a fire, though I sure hope to. In the whole NW WA and SE BC for the past few weeks, I�d defy 98% of humans to get a fire going in the bush using items carried in a daypack, and my real opinion is that 99.9% couldn�t do it tonight. In most locations near here tonight, I wouldn�t waste time trying to start or sustain a fire, but would put the effort on something else, like rain/wind protection and insulation.
Here is another pitch for the Golite poncho. A longer A-frame with bleak.
The Golite poncho does not make the best tarp but it is far better than nothing and it works good for a poncho and wind break. I would take the 36 dollar deal.
This is a mix of gear and anecdotes of using it in wet conditions.
A good friend of mine spent a night in sleet and high wind in a steep wet canyon right on the border northwest of Mt. Baker, (can you say wet?) a few years ago. He got rim rocked at dark dragging a buck down and wisely stayed put for the night. He spent the night propped against a big fir tree on a fearsomely steep slope of icy slick on frozen ground, no fire. He stayed warm and comfortable he said, and the uphill side of such trees usually have a small flat spot, big enough to sit on if not lie down. He had Gore-tex shell top and bottom over fleece and wool layers and some snack food for inner fuel. Don�t know if he used his space blanket but he had one. Horrible stormy night, everybody really worried about him though I told the search master at 3:00 AM that he was the best qualified to survive of anybody I knew, and if he hadn�t broken a femur or something like that, he was OK.
One of my routines is to be downright fanatical about not getting wet, if there is a chance that I may spend the night out. On backpack hunts away from a vehicle or fixed shelter, staying dry may be the single biggest difference in staying alive, no matter what you have in your pack. If I am quite sure I�ll be back in a dry warm place for the night, I don�t mind getting wet and hunt accordingly.
No cotton on my body is another rule I�m fanatical about, but I live on the wet side of the world. Buying and having several pairs of synthetic shorts and/or wool underwear, pants and shirts handy and routine for any outing makes that a reasonable deal, even for outings when you don�t plan to be away from your vehicle.
If and when you get really wet, the biggest and most immediate survival decision is whether to quickly head for someplace warm and dry or start that minute to do what you can to dry out on the spot. You are losing core body heat and mental abilities by the minute, so act while you can still use muscle and mind well. I.e. Salish, in his thread, decided to try to walk out and then to walk to a farm he could see in the distance (if I remember his account correctly.) It worked, especially as he met some warm, dry and helpful hunters on the way. With wet cotton clothes and no way to start a fire, he had little option other than walk out, unless he could find a hay stack. Golly hay is warm when you burrow into it or pull it over you.
I've waded to retrieve ducks in near zero F. temps andhad a partner swim to retrieve some. My pants froze like stovepipes with a crack at the knees. My friend stripped naked, swam to get the ducks, slicked off what water he could and dressed again. Teen agers. He was warming within minutes as we walked three miles home, which shows that dry clothes will warm you up again if your metabolisim is still functioning to generate heat.
As I look at the survival gear pictured on this thread, I would leave some out and lighten some of the rest, at least for hunting. I always hope to carry out a lot of meat, so take mininimal gear in my pack or day pack. For wet or winter camping just to be camping, I take more survival/comfort gear.
The fluorescent flagging tape is good, but a whole roll is heavy. Most of this we have posted at times in the past so please forgive the repeats. I wind several yards of the flagging tape on itself, so that there is no useless hefty center, and then cut it with a sharp knife around the roll, lengthwise. One cut in the center makes two half width tapes. I usually do two cuts to make one width of tape into three narrow ones. I put a rubber band or some adhesive tape on it to hold the roll together and usually put it in a small Ziploc bag with other items, like spare batteries. The tape weighs less, goes three times as far and I recognize my own from anybody else�s. You don�t need much if you are looking for it. I've only used it to mark down game or a route into a good place.
Most of my cord is now even thinner and lighter than parachute cord, still plenty strong for tying down a tarp or meat to a pack. I dye it bright orange if I can't buy bright colours, so I can find it on snow or dry ground. I don�t need to rappel with it, though I usually have one longer piece of parachute cord strength. For knives, I carry a smallish pocket knife and a lock blade light weight Buck folder, and unless it is a long multi day trip, no sharpener.
I often sit on my pack at impromptu stands, rather than take the pad out of it to sit on. The day pack itself will add to insulation, either under you, over you or with your feet and as much of your body stuck in as possible. Have bivvied that way, and one pack I have has an extra long extension top that I can pull up past my waist.
I carry two lighter weight flashlights, one a micro head lamp and the other a mini LED so I can see to change batteries in the headlamp. Had to change those one night just at the snow line while packing out a buck on a steep trail. With cold wet hands and dumb fuddled tired brain, I dropped one of the batteries. At that elevation, on the line between snow above and rain below, it was kind of a slushy rain on a muddy, steep, rocky, brushy trail. With the mini light I found the battery I dropped. Otherwise, the instant I dropped it, I knew that if I didn�t find it, I would spend the night right there, under the nearest tree.
During that stop I ate one of the little marathoner envelopes of energy gel and it seemed to give me a huge boost. Have tried them under less stressed situations and have not noticed any difference, but I carry one or two of them and save them for emergencies or the latter stage of a pack out.
If any of us spend a night out in the wet and cold, if we are wet, God help us and I hope we survive.
I agree with you wholeheartedly about the wet issue..I live in the UK and its pretty damn wet here too...Only in the height of summer do I hunt in anything other than breathable waterproofs...Its a policy which I believe has helped me avoid hypotheria many times...I also now tend to religiously carry a small head torch plus a 1W LED hand torch...Again this policy has meant I could walk off the hill when i've been caught out after dark, when otherwise it might have meant a night in the cold and wet..
Somebody mentioned a zippo as being a good survival firelighter, but I am affraid i disagree...They are great when they are fueled up, but they dry out relatively quickly if they are not used as they are not sealed as can't be left at the bottom of a pack and forgotten about...I really wish somebody would do a sealed version even if it had to have a screw top to it...the nearest i have seen is the so called perma-matches......
One of the *best* survival aids I have come across is a small strobe light. With one of these I can hunker down and get out of the weather as much as possbile, but leave that flashing away in a prominent place near by for rescuers to see..a whistle is another must for me as again it can be operatered from the confines of water ever shelter I can find...
If you do decide to buy a strobe check the switch arrangement as some are not protected and it would be easy for them to be turned on in your pack in error...
Okanagan, have you tried to light your waterproof matches with the emory cloth you use. A lot of safety type matches require a chemical in the striker or they won't work. Strike anywhere matches, obviously, are a different story. As to staying dry, I won't go into the bush here on the coast without my HH Impertech rain gear...nothing else like it. The stuff is bullet proof.
Okanagan, have you tried to light your waterproof matches with the emory cloth you use. A lot of safety type matches require a chemical in the striker or they won't work. Strike anywhere matches, obviously, are a different story.
Paul, you just explained an oddity to me. One time I had a batch of waterproof matches that I decided were defective so threw them away because they would not strike on hardly anything. Some did strike on the side of the box they came in but on nothing else, (and even on the box they had a poor percentage of lighting.) I didn't know about the striker requirements of some safety matches. The waterproof ones I have now strike well on many surfaces, but from now on I will make sure what I buy.
One time I cut the striker side off of a box of matches and put that in the pill bottle, but it didn't hold up as well as sandpaper, and especially the tougher emery cloth.
Thanks for the info! That could be a disaster to have matches that wouldn't strike. Same lesson again, down to the smallest detail, we need to test gear to make sure it all works.
Ordered the Golite poncho. Been wanting a poncho for some summer uses anyway and this one sounds ideal for some of the hunts and hikes I do. I'd also like a shortie poncho, waist length, for kayaking in the rain, which I love to do. I'll probably have to make that.
Beware of the so called waterproof matches that require the special striking surface.
On a couple of types I have tried over here, while the matches are waterproof, the striker surface is not! The ones i am thinking about come in small white bottles like pill containers with the stricker surface the exterior of the lid. I found that when it got damp, the surface tended to disintergrate/dissolve leaving you unable to use the matches.
If you use these it may be worth checking before you come to depend on them..
Its like a beak, but made in China! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
One of my favourite subjects. My survival kit is now just a few oz, and is about the size of two cigarette packets. I live in one of the wettest temperate climates in the world, easily 10 to 20 feet of rain a year (yes thats right - up to 8 metres). Gas lighters of any type can be a problem in a survival kit as over time they develop "issues", and just when you need them, they don't go - don't ask how I know this !! I use plain old matches in a film canister, and back that up with a few of the wind/waterproof supermatches.
The two most important items in my kit for getting a fire going are a bit of plain old motorcycle tyre tube, cut into the size of large rubber bands, or in one piece (mine is the outside wrap of my survival kit, and there are usually a few spare bits in my bum bag too) and knowlege/practise (oh bugger thats three things). Even in the wettest bush (forest) here you can always find some burnable stuff on the dry side of old trees, although it often takes a while, and requires experience in knowing where to look.
There is a potential problem in relying too much on "stuff" that may or may not be in your survival kit as every unexpected night out is different. Knowlege and confidence are much underated "tools" in dealing with problems in the mountains.
For example recognising early that you will not be back with your buddies for the night is real important, then you have time to seek shelter etc (getting out of the wind, and getting a fire going are 10 times more difficult after darkness falls), and you are much less likely to make further mistakes. Most people who die in our mountains don't just make one mistake, they usually start with a small one then compound it - mostly by getting hypothermia, which generally stuffs your decisionmaking capabilities anyway.
This has been an interesting thread and I will contribute my "mite" based on my experiences and the philosophy I have derived from them. Where I live it is extremely wet and also very cold with heavy snowfall, severe winds and temps. to -40*; the relatively small population, minimal emerg. services and weather all combine to make rescue in winter quite problematical.
So, since this is the situation, I have always felt that having a certain level of gear, skills, mental preparedness and foresight is really the best way to approach this problem and it has worked for me. I think that depending on one's ability to make a fire is not wise as some emergency bivys result from an injury such as a fractured leg and you will NOT move around to gather fuel or find tinder with such an injury, so, you need to succour yourself with gear you have with you.
If, someone carries a basic weatherproof bivy-bedroll plus hydration capability plus enough dry clothing to change out of any wet items they are wearing AND stays where they are, with simple signalling devices, they have an excellent chance of survival-rescue. However, failure to recognize the potential for injury that will preclude traditional "survival" skills being employed, such as those shown in a myriad of books on the topic, can and usually will end in the slow death of the person involved, happens here all year 'round.
My younger brother is an Emergency Med. Tec. aka "paramedic" and has flown in and helped pack out the corpses of quite a few "outdoorsmen" who would not carry adequate survival gear, broke an ankle ski-mountaineering and couldn't make a fire, so, they froze to death, slowly....not fun.
I do not take chances with minimal gear and my emerg. camp weighs about 25 lbs. all up, pack included. I can survive, easily, for a week with this and after seeing the corpses of personal friends, some VERY experienced BC wilderness enthusiasts, including professional guides and park rangers, I will not leave my transport without this gear, or, depend on a minimalist pocket pack. YMMV.
...recognising early that you will not be back with your buddies for the night is real important, then you have time to seek shelter etc (getting out of the wind, and getting a fire going are 10 times more difficult after darkness falls), and you are much less likely to make further mistakes. Most people who die in our mountains don't just make one mistake, they usually start with a small one then compound it - mostly by getting hypothermia, which generally stuffs your decisionmaking capabilities anyway.
Cheers - Foster
Wise words, for all of the reasons you list. They are hard words to heed for ourselves, when we are the one starting to get in trouble and want to keep trying to find our way out rather than take the safe, embarrassing route and use the last hour before dark to prepare for a long wet night. An old timer I used to hang out with in B.C. once told me abruptly one day,"The time to decide to spend an emergency night in the bush is an hour and a half before dark, not five minutes after."
I have followed that exact philosophy strictly since I dammed near died in Kokanee Glacier Provincial Park on my first solo wintercamping trip. I was 24, had a considerable amount of serious bush experience and had wintercamped, BUT, I was over-confident and pushed myself until dark on snowshoes which soaked me with sweat.
When I finally stoped to camp, it was black dark, my Svea was balky and LED headlamps didn't exist in 1970. I was wet through, found that my down bag was also completely saturated and my sleeping bag cover was missing. Fortunately, I am very comfortable alone in the bush and although scared, I knew what to do.
I gathered Cedar boughs, covered myself and the snow with them, changed into my dry socks with my pacs loosened and huddled under my bag as a shelter from the wind. Within an hour, I was warm, sleepy and just sat there until dawn and then snowshoed out to the highway. I was wearing "Mellofleece" merino wool union suit, wool sweater, pants and socks plus wool jackshirt, IF, I had either injured myself OR been wearing cotton or many synthetics, I would have died; I have been back there many times since and I still wear merino wool AND carry a bivy rig.
It is a good idea to check your matches at least yearly as they can deteriorate with time. Also to check the water proofness of your match case. They can crack and leak. Both happened to me this hunting season, (my pocket match case). I carry extra matches in my day pack and jacket pockets.
I my experience with disposable lighters has been that when the flint and sparking wheel get wet, it won't spark and light.
I don't rely on matches. Though I carry a few sealed up. Along with a couple of lighters bought new each season.
I carry a firestarting kit, in ziplocs, soon to be vaccum sealed. Contains wood wool, cedar bark, small squaw wood, and a block of gunpowder for a long burn. Powder melted with acetone and formed into blocks in an ice cube tray. This way I'm not scratching for dry tinder, I can actually rip the package open and hit my striker. I have an instant fire. All I have to chase is more squaw wood and larger stuff for the fuel. I've seen videos of guys that jump in water below freezing and show you how quickly you cannot find wood, manage to strike a match etc..... yet all I'd have to do is grab the package from the top of my pack, yank it out, pull out striker, rip package open and strike one time. Instant fire starting flames. Its a bit bulky, but I carry 2 packs like this at all times. I never knew till a couple of survival courses, how quick a sparker can start a fire, vs a match.
If you do decide to buy a strobe check the switch arrangement as some are not protected and it would be easy for them to be turned on in your pack in error...
Good point for all battery operated devices. I am really picky about flashlights, and will only buy serious ones for hunting or travel that are bombproof in terms of not accidentally having them turn on in a pack or suitcase and run down the batteries. I prefer waterproof switches that twist on. Exposed button switches are the worst, with sliding switches next. I used to reverse or remove a battery to keep such flashlights from running down their batteries, but in the dark, it is not alwasy easy to insert or reverse the batteries to get the light to work. OK, it's a pet peeve and I over react.
This is an expensive but very interesting process to produce a foolproof tinder. I use dryer lint mixed with fine steel wool saturated with Vasoline which is cheap and works well, the powder blocks would augment this and help to ignite damp wood such as is common here.....as Okanogan will attest.
Now, WHAT is this "striker", I have the magnesium type, but, is this something better??????
How does the steel wool augment the dryer lint for flammability? I'm always looking for cheap fire starting stuff and there is no shortage of dryer lint in my house...:)
Okanagan, I keep a tiny LED light clipped to my pack strap. Will allow the reversal of the real lights batteries..
Kutenay-- nothing special, just a normal stiker, something on a handle that has basically a cut down hard steel hacksaw blade, run along the edge, sparks galore. Got it in a survival class. Basically the same as on the magnesium strikers, its round like on the M but about as thick as 2 pencils. Or a blast match which is similar.
I've never cared much for the steel wool though it works. I prefer wood wool which catches instantly.
The powder blocks can burn for minutes depending on size. Which is great. Some packs I also put in a part block of the wax soaked stove starting blocks. Once lit they are good too.
One can never go wrong with vaseline soaked cotton balls.
I also carry a blow tube, plastic, O2 type tubing. Just be very careful not to inhale. But that sure can help a smoldering start.
I'll see if I can find more info on my striker. Had a link to the survival sight a year ago, don't know if I can find it back.
For some reason fine wire wool is very flammable and being what it is, is not affected by water as lint is...I suspect that it also burns at a higher temp than lint too...
You can ignite steel wool just be putting it across the terminals of a standard 9V battery...just tease it out a little and you will see the sparks flow through it when you connect to the terminals. You can also light it with a spark or flame in the usual manner...What I've never tried is with a magnify glass???
If you use a magnesium/flint fire set, a few shavings of magnesium onto your tender also makes it burn a lot hotter, but these firesets are very prone to corrosion, so seal them up well...
No, I don't think is an overreaction at all... I can only assume that the people who come up with some of these dumb designs have never actually had to rely on them in an emergency..
Steel wool burns hotter and longer than cotton or wood wool and will ignite and burn when WET, if saturated with Vasoline. The dryer lint ignites quicker and I have also used rubber bands mixed into this mess as they last and help ignite wood, BUT, they stink something awful, so, I quit using them.
I know about "bracket fungus" tinder and pine pitch and spruce gum and birch bark and Cedar shavings, I have used wood heat since I was an infant, grew up in the BC bush and one of my major forestry duties was "slashburning" in wet Oct.-Nov. Nothing I have used will work like this mess and it is about H20 proof, important here where it rains a little bit.......28 days out of 30 in Nov., except when it was snowing.
If, you have Cedar and this tinder and a reliable lighter, you will get a fire going and then you use Doug Fir to stoke it or Hemlock. This will last all night if banked with soil and covered with even wet wood, allowing air to enter.
Aside from keeping stick matches in a waterproof case, a couple of BICs, a large ferro rod & magnesium shavings in a film can (made at home), I always have my old ZIPPO lighter and two small Tobasco bottles of lighter fluid.
When it's windy and raining, etc., that old ZIPPO will always light. Stays lit in the wind, too.
I don't smoke -- quit in 1976 -- so it is used strictly in emergency situations where the other methods won't work.
I wrap a couple small strips of duct tape around the opening to seal it so the fluid doesn't evaporate for a long time. It has never failed me.
If for some reason the fluid ran dry, then I just refill from one of the small Tobasco bottles.
I also carry four homemade firestarters made by pouring melted beeswax in egg cartons. Beforehand, I soak pure, heavy cotton string in the beeswax (or parafin), lay it in the separate space of the egg carton, put in some rough shavings of dry pine and pour in the melted beeswax.
Once dry, I wrap these separately in wax paper, which also acts as a wick. Kept in a Ziplok bag, they'll burn hot for a long time.
A road flare or lifeboat flare will start wet wood in the most inclement weather. I used to carry two in my saddlebags. Had to use them on two occasions when I needed a fire RIGHT NOW! and everything in the forest was soaking and cold.
Now, in my daypack, I carry a half road flare. Cut one in two, put some Krazy Glue on the cut end and electric tape. Works like a charm. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
Gents, Like others have said, pack like you won't be able to build a fire, but make one if you can. I am a newbie when it comes to hunting, much less backpack hunting, but have spent some time in the woods. When you are mountain hunting, do you not pass through the forest on the way up? Do you ever pass evergreen blow downs, with some spikes sticking up from the stump? Those spikes are "lighter pine" or "fat wood", very flammable and pretty waterproof. Sometimes you'll see hard little stubs or knots where a branch has fallen or been broken off, same thing, but be careful when you dig them out as they are hard enough to chip your blade. White birch bark is also very flammable do to the oil content and can be gathered as you walk. Lighter pine is also available for purchase, Why not carry a sitck or three with you as instant tinder? Kute, Sparkers, come large and small. Can be found in BSA stores and many camping supplies. Lighters (Bics) frequently leak, and don't like cold much. Yes I carry several, but also carry matches in K&M match case and GI match cases and several sparker rods scattered about. Just my .02 FWIW. How many of you choose their hunting equipment as survival gear, or don't but carry some sort of kit or do both? Regards Jim Ps. Kute, Id love to see the insides of your pack. Pss. Great thread!!!
Shaq, my Brother spent a cold night misplaced (his words) in the Maine woods. At dawn, he fired shots until someone answered and walked out. I grew up with that information and have carried survival stuff all my days in the woods. I have a quart ziplock around a metal WW2 German infantryman's cup containing:
space blanket, poncho, emergency matches, fire starters, signal mirror, whistle, compass, dental floss, immodium, tylenol, eye drops, gauze, and tape, parachute cord, super glue, red flagging tape. There's also a razor sharp Benchmade Griptillian tied to the handle.
That's in my daypack along with whatever the season calls for. Spare hats, socks, gloves, raingear...
I am waiting for a product called Celox to hit the civilian market in early 2008. It's supposed to be the best clotting agent available. Emergency bleeding in the backwoods is my second greatest concern after freezing to death, and I can't wait to stuff a packet in my kit!
When you are cold, the tendency is to curl up and hunker down, and if the situation is not appropriate for that, you will die right there.
Really, knit-wit?! The general understanding (from those who routinely extract such victims) is that they tend toward counter clockwise traverses and shed clothing at various intervals. On balance, not a lot of "hunkering down" is seen during recovery.
A huge piece of the puzzle seems to be whether you intend to be above treeline or below.
Below treeline; screw it! You have ample wood to burn. 2 Mylar space blankets and cordage offer excellent shelter during the worst of the night.
Above treeline requires a fuel supply and a w/g stove, imo.
Clothing is conditional to the above contexts, but hardshells really aren't that hard to come by. Insulated layers are prerequisite and supported well by a decent fire.
Sir, Re. Celox, see Tratical Response Gear, under their Ventilated Operator Kits. Celox is available from them. Their VOC's might not be a bad addition to your emergency medical stuff as its lite, compact, and probably the best pre-made kit available to manage GSW type injuries (airway compromise, tension pneumothorax, and severe bleeding, the things that can kill you before help arrives). Designed for the street, it seems to me that they would be even more applicable in the back country. Regards, Jim
Those sparkers are available in a small plastic container with tinder tabs from backpackinglight.com.
I got to thinking once about the conditions under which you might need a kit...some of which might occur without a backpack (e.g., after an unexpected fall in a river that meant shucking your pack to swim, or after a bear has destroyed your pack and generally buggered up your day). And so I have started to look for sheaths that have a loop for a ferro rod, and I put together a very small kit (3.5"x5"x1.1", bigger than an Altoids tin, but not a lot) with: spare eyeglasses signal mirror (to be replaced with Mylar tape on lid) quart Ziploc bag for water, etc. sandwich size Ziploc for food, tinder, whatever. prophylactic for water (seriously, now) butate lighter with duct tape, needle, and forcep blade under wraps. O-ring under fuel lever prevents accidental discharge. thin whistle some floss button Brunton compass sparker/tinder kit in box (backpackinglight.com, fourseasonssurvival.com) small Kershaw knife Potable Aqua chorine dioxide tabs (7 or more) two larger needles, sealed in tape, for repair.
The container is aluminum and can be cooked in. The lid is o-ringed. It was not cheap ($25), but it's a great size, and I don't want my core gear crushed or wet. I got it from some aviation survival gear company on the Internet.
On the outside I have rubber bands securing a very thin plastic painter's drop cloth, a contractor's trash bag, and about 30' of a thin, waxed, braided nylon cord I got from an arborist supply house.
This rig easily slips into a pocket and is always on my person in the backcountry. I carry additional stuff (first aid kit, ID sil poncho, mylar Space Blanket sleeping bag, food, better compass, better knife, better water purification, ferro rod, more cord, wire saw, shell clothing, hat) in my fanny or back pack, but unless badly hurt I'd be in pretty reasonable shape with the small one. Bug dope, headnet, and half flare are only carried in specialized conditions.
This is all mildly anal, but I've spent a few unplanned nights out. The ones during which I could get good sleep were a lot easier and, I suspect, safer.
I like the sound of that Celox. I do carry Liquid Bandage or whatever they call that Crazy Glue stuff. Another item I really like in the med kit is 3M Micropore paper tape. It has replaced both cloth tape and moleskin and would certainly serve in some repairs. Good stuff. Some of my climbing and high mileage friends like something called Leukotape P better. I found some on the Internet and got it, but I haven't used it yet.
Oh, I forgot...I've got both a LED headlamp and a bigger, brighter, but low weight, Fenix (the Fenix is incredible, particularly the ones that work on CR-123 lithium cells; search on e-bay)flashlight in my hunting pack, but I'll probably slip one of those tiny button LED lamps in the small case. The ability to put one of them on SOS at night for aircraft is something that could save my injured butt sometime...And the post about marathoner's gel has me thinking about slipping one of those little packs in, too. I can think of a number of hunts gel really would have made a difference to my young son.
You guys would like this. We were watching "March of the Penguins" in a theatre in Missoula three or four years ago with some other kids and parents, including a woman I was seeing at the time. The scene of the winter blizzard came on--male penguins huddled together, balancing their eggs on their toes, shoulders and heads covered with snow. Too much time on the outer perimeter meant death, and the congregation was surrounded by dead individuals and abandoned eggs, rapidly disappearing in the snow accumulation. Very dramatic, and the movie theatre was silent...until my boy leaned forward and hissed, "Hey, Caroline! That's what elk hunting with Dad is like."
The front half of the theatre erupted in laughter.
You guys would like this. We were watching "March of the Penguins" in a theatre in Missoula three or four years ago with some other kids and parents, including a woman I was seeing at the time. The scene of the winter blizzard came on--male penguins huddled together, balancing their eggs on their toes, shoulders and heads covered with snow. Too much time on the outer perimeter meant death, and the congregation was surrounded by dead individuals and abandoned eggs, rapidly disappearing in the snow accumulation. Very dramatic, and the movie theatre was silent...until my boy leaned forward and hissed, "Hey, Caroline! That's what elk hunting with Dad is like."
The front half of the theatre erupted in laughter.
When I first saw this topic post the first thing that came to mind was keeping my body core temperature up.
As far as I know nothing beats wool in surviving a cold wet night.
agreed to a point, I love my wool long johns, but prefer fleece or synthetics on the outer layers. gonna get some spark holes but oh well. If I get really soaked and it stops I can take the stuff off wring it out and be dry pdq. plus it's not as heavy as wool.
but if I was gonna do the marathon i.e. gonna have to spend 10-12 days walkin out, wool would be high on my list, but most of my wool has long been replaced with stuff that drys faster and is lighter
I'm with TENTMAN here, we both hunt the wettest forest in the world as far as I know, and NZ hunting is all backpack hunting, you more or less have to be mentally prepared at least for a night out whenever you go. Ive done it and most everybody else has as well.
You guys seem way over geared. Just my impression.
Your hunting gear IS your survival gear.
As others have said - Wool clothing is the best. Even when its wet its still warm.
No cotton, and for me - no fleece.
Take a small flysheet, (I use the small one off a hennesey hammock sometimes. A fire kit for me is matches, lighter, the same strips of inner tube rubber that Tentman mentioned, and half a candle. Build as big a fire as you can. Make a cup of tea. I carry a tin cup tea and suger in my dayback. One must have ones tea you know...
But as he mentioned, you have to decide early that your out for the night, stumbling around in the dark limits your ability to do anything, and you shouldnt be doing it, thats when you break your ankle, or fall over a bluff you can't see, and get in real trouble.
A wet night out is no big deal unless your hurt, or get so stressed you get silly and you park up in a stupid place. Apart from the uncomfortable boredom and misery, but it doesnt matter what you do your going to have that. All you do is sit there and bear it and wait for the dawn. They will be the longest nights of your life.
If I had a flysheet and teabags and were hunting goat up high in the tundra of Montana's Beartooths, come the next thaw I'd be a tea flavored popsickle for some grizzly.
Taking minimal gear is nice and romantic, but as they say, "an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure". I'll be prepared for anything and be a bit overgeared thankyou. You might end up with sub zero temps or a freak storm and your screwed. Why risk it?
A wet night out is no big deal unless your hurt, or get so stressed you get silly and you park up in a stupid place. Apart from the uncomfortable boredom and misery, but it doesnt matter what you do your going to have that. All you do is sit there and bear it and wait for the dawn. They will be the longest nights of your life.
Your wettest forest in the world must be warmer than mine...we only average 13-15ft of rainfall per year, but a wet night out can be a very big deal. You won't be bored....
No. Wool is not the warmest, or the best. I've used wool alot longer than any of the synthetics I use. It is warm when wet. But it has only 50% of it thermal effeciency when wet. What's even more important is that it dries no where near as fast as the best synthetics. Try using a quality wool base layer and then try a Patagonia Capliene base layer in it's place. You'll notice that wool of the same thickness is a bit warmer, but it dries out no where near as fast as capliene. When it come to insulation layers, it also depends on whose synthetics you use. Just like the base layer. I've used quality wool as an insulation layer literally all my life. But nothing comes even close to Patagonia's Regulator series when it comes to warmth and ability to dry quickly. In otherwords, there is a wide variation as to how well fleece does the job. I've got several Polartec and Cabela's Fleece items. None of them dry nearly as fast or stay warm when really wet like wool. Like many have said, you need to stay dry. That means you need to deal with both the inner storm and the outer storm. The outer storm is far easier to deal with than the inner storm. E
Here it can rain, sleet or snow at literally any time of the year. (Granted your winters would be much harsher.) And when I say forest we are talking mountains and so forth - look up Himalayan tahr sometime... Maybe you guys should harden up or get out more...theres no need to be excessively cautious, or you'll never leave home
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that your hunting gear is your survival gear. You dont drag all this extra crap along 'just in case'. (And BTW - teabags are certainly an essential lifesaver.) I dont know about 'romantic' just practical. You can fill up your bag with excessive amounts of useless gear that will never be used. I tried to find a photo on an 'evil' weather day but cant at the moment, so a pleasant one will do. (Operating here would include a bivvy bag and thermerest pad)
I expect the wettest forest in the world, while formidable in its way, is also a lot less windy than some of the plains and mountains we hunt in. That wind...
I ran into a friend yesterday who was wading a river earlier this year, took a bad step, and had his whole quadriceps tear away from his knee--old sports injury, I guess. Put a hitch in his giddyup, but he's a calm guy and it worked out fine. I had another hunting friend have an Achilles go, and his whole calf rolled up behind his knee. Those are strange stories, but I'd hate to die of a broken or badly sprained ankle just because it took me three, four, or five nights to get out. That's why I carry redundant fire starter, water purification tabs, enough shelter to break the wind and stay dry from above and below, and some way to signal. The whole kit can be pretty darned light and make a huge difference.
Carlsen Highway sure is right about picking the right spot, though, and others nailed the importance of giving yourself time to find and prepare it. I've slipped through some pretty grim situations that way. I had my son in a grass-lined and grass-covered pit under a rock overhang in Idaho's Salmon River Breaks in January snow a couple of years ago. No tree cover in that country, and lots of air was moving. He was fine. Since I didn't have enough time to gather sufficient grass for myself before deep dark in that dry, cliff-filled place, my own night was a lot less pleasant.
Theres obviously vast differences between the way we hunt and the terrain, and I dont really mean to sound as condescending as I suspect I do above. But you guys should recognise what this kind of country is all about.
Maybe you guys should harden up or get out more...theres no need to be excessively cautious, or you'll never leave home
You know, it's funny. My New Years Resolution was to quit being such a prick on these forums but you make it really hard.
I'm not sure what gives you the idea that anyone really benefits from your bravado, but your cup doesn't really hold a whole lot of water since you aren't here doing it. I think you should go to Alaska with minimal gear during a "cold, wet night" and then tell everyone how overly cautious they are.
The particular forum you are spouting off on, happens to be replete with people who have set benchmarks in "minimalist". Nice pic of a real pretty day....
But you guys should recognise what this kind of country is all about.
That cuts both ways, laddie buck.
For my part, hearing how other people do bivy hunts, both in terms of technique and mindset, is of occasional interest to me. Claims that you are tougher than I, or Kiwis are tougher than Yanks and Canadians, aren't my idea of conversation.
uh dave, am thinking that spotting scope prolly didn't get there by helo, though who knows maybe that's legal transpo there.
have spent the night out with minimal gear and made it, but twas the lesson that prompted me to always go with the fanny/daypack gig.
I can be tough if need be I'm thinking, but it just seems stupid (to me) for when a few ounces more, I can be a whole lot more comfortable.
tis one of the real joys for me in life that when the unexpected happens I've taken some precautions that ensure me and those close to me some comfort.
no sense in any of us gettin in the long weiner competition, we each do our preparation to how we see fit, gear choices, weaponry, and kit and live with the consequences.
I've read and played around enough that I could probably get by a nite or two without capability to eat or make a fire, but I get just a real kick out of having a small kit that makes even those unexpected siwashes a comfortable affair.
In my opinion, the most important part of surviving a cold, wet night is making fire. The best training is making fires in all sorts of conditions. I think one of the best things to do, particularly with kids, is to make it a game. Look outside on a really miserable day and say, "I bet I can get a fire going." Or take a break while hunting and make a micro-fire. The more you build fires, the more you build confidence. Some guys will pack gear for years and never actually use it. The most important survival tool is the one sitting between your ears. The most valuable gear is confidence tempered by experience.
Honestly, guys, most of us are not going to end up like Robinson Crusoe having to trap to survive for weeks. The most likely scenario is we get "boogered up" by getting lost, hurt or trapped by weather or some combination thereof. Our job is to stay alive and give rescuers every possible edge in finding us. My approach is to plan to make fire, make shelter and make do. As for my one "trick," I pack Gaines burgers dog food. I only will eat them if I am pretty darn hungry... unlikely more palatable survival food. They will sit in my pack until the end of the year and then the dog gets a little bonus.
used to carry a power bar for the same reason, only going to eat if I'm starving, and after 5-6 years ended up throwing it away.
love the idea about making building fire a game.
fortunately we live in a place where fire making materials are abundant. Birch bark, spruce pitch, old man's beard and a little time and care spent gathering some dry wood and tinder and it's pretty hard to go wrong.
We've got a fire pit outside, and I'll often send the boys off to get stuff and get the fire going.
cause theirs a 5 year age difference in them there's natural competition. lil guy thinks he has to outdo big brother.
it is a good way to teach youngsters fire making skills, like playing ball, if you practice it enough taking the shot at the buzzer in the big game comes easier.
Yeah, kids love making fires and it's a valuable learning experience.
Good post Hampstead. Hard to overstate the importance of a fire. My personal survival plan for unexpected nights out here doesn't include one, but they sure nice...
I'm always interested in people's fire-starting tools and techniques. It's really, really difficult to get a fire going here sometimes, due to everything being soggy. There are times when it's either beyond my ability, or I'm just not willing/patient enough to do what it takes.
Today is one of those days, the rain has a life of it's own...
What you are displaying is not new to many of us. I can walk you to place like that in my own back yard. Weather like what you describe is also nothing new. I do like your basic point, that your clothing is your survival gear. There are lots of high quality items out there that can do double duty. I'll just add that a few simple items, like a light piece of 5/16th's ensolite foam and some tear open chemical hand warnmers would make a big difference. You are only talking about 4-6 ozs. here. BTW, if you get injuried, you may not be able to make a fire. Then a bivy sack, a tarp, or even a light poncho to roll up in can make a big difference as well. Ditto with having an ACE bandage along. Just the thing to split a broken leg. Again, just a couple of ozs. E
Hampstead-- Gainesburgers?!? Now, THAT is tough...I'm in awe. Guess I'll have to harden up some. Now, Milk Bones I have experience with, but they come from the better rendering plants.
Great post. I read somewhere a breakdown, by region, on lengths of time people were out before a SAR team got to them. I can't remember if it was broken down by successful and unsuccessful (that is, corpse extraction) exercises. Anyhow, in almost all cases they were really short term events; not many over 24 and damned few over 48 hours. The longer ones you read about in the paper. And they tend to be unsuccessful.
Pretty good justification for the focus on warmth, shelter, water, and signalling. First aid for emergencies. A very small amount of emergency food as a nice option. Everything else is just gravy.
Yeah, kids love making fires and it's a valuable learning experience.
Good post Hampstead. Hard to overstate the importance of a fire. My personal survival plan for unexpected nights out here doesn't include one, but they sure nice...
I'm always interested in people's fire-starting tools and techniques. It's really, really difficult to get a fire going here sometimes, due to everything being soggy. There are times when it's either beyond my ability, or I'm just not willing/patient enough to do what it takes.
Today is one of those days, the rain has a life of it's own...
Dave, while not spending much of any time in SE, I can see where you are coming from.
I'm sure it can be done if a guy needs to, but building fire there vs. here is a whole nuther kettle of fish.
have spent a fair amount of time in SW and there are places like that too, though in some ways even worse, there's not much timber to burn in some places and when the storms come thru, sometimes lasting weeks, things get pretty danged soggy.
Boy you guys sure do like to fight a lot. I made no claims to being 'tougher' nor was I comparing US against Kiwi or canadian, it was you guys that did that and I just thought you had made a mistake and picked up on the wet warm thing you guys mentioned. Some people think that becasue its in the south Pacific it must be all palm trees, thats what the picture was for.
I'm sure your all very tough mountain men types indeed. Now that we have all acknowledged that we are all collectivley tough hard mountain men we can speak as normal people
And no I didnt chopper that spotting scope up there. Never been in a chopper in my life in fact although I would very much like to. Too expensive for me, I have to walk up.
I just was trying to make a point about being overly 'gear focussed' although I suppose I screwed it up with my enthusiasm.
We have some pretty miserable weather on our coast range during elk season and it takes some serious effort and time to get a warming fire going and maintain it.
In Eastern Oregon there is generally some way to get a fire going and maintain it.
FWIW In either case we encourage new hunters to go to 1.Gather their materials together, 2. Use their garbage/space bag or other shelter and then make a fire while in it. Intent is to avoid getting chilled.
My dad used to say we kids could break an anvil with a rubber hammer. Well, we could melt an anvil with a couple of matches. Lord, we loved to make fires. Maybe it's being kids or maybe we're just wired for it. As the oldest, it was my job to start and keep the fire going in the basement. Of course, it's an easy job with dry tamarack and good kindling. It's a little tougher when it's raining in buckets out in the woods... but even in the wet woods a savvy woodsman can rustle up a little of this and a little of that. And as with most things, the more you practice the better you get.
The thing about fire is not only the heat and the light, it's a sense of mastery. A man with a fire is a man with possibilities, with hope. And a man with a Gaine's burger for dinner... we'll he's just a dog.
I loved making fires when I was a kid, in the interior. Seemed easy then.
I just got in from a (little) trapline...it's blowing hard enough that I probably shouldn't have been in the skiff, raining sideways, and generally miserable. Tough fire making conditions today, but while thinking of this thread, I poked around enough to find some relatively dry starter materials. Trouble is the next size up..that stuff is soaked, for the most part.
I don't post often on the backpacking forum, but I have always found it to be the most civil, helpful and "grounded" place around the Campfire. I think that when a guy straps his rig to his back and walks a piece, it renders some of the nonsense out of him.
As for a fire, it is and will always be one of the elemental pleasures of the woods. As for Gainesburgers, I suggest trying the ones with cheese.
but am thinking if I was stuck out in your locale, I'd spend a fair amount of time getting that starter stuff together, then get finger size dead limbs from downed trees and standing dead ones, break them to get to the dry stuff inside.
throw my poncho or space blanket over the small end of a downed tree, find a rock and wipe it with my hanky and put my fire makings on it under my shelter that I've weighted down to fight the wind.
lot's of prep work needed but then I'd find progressively bigger stuff a ton of it about wrist size and lay as much of it against the tree under my tarp/poncho.
I think a guy would have to have a ton of wood around that was dead to make it work, but i'd go get bigger stuff even if it was wet on the outside.
once I got my fire blazing (if that's what a guy wanted) I'd remove the tarp and just add fuel.
or keep the fire small and sit under the tarp next to the fire and keep feeding it and drying stuff as I moved it closer.
it's good stuff to do when you don't NEED to, just for grins and to build some confidence that you can.
then after doing all that they could come and drag my dead hypothermic azz outa there. grin
Let me add a few thoughts. Your standing wood is generally going to be drier and is often less rotten (or as we used say, "punky.") There's often dry stuff at the base of a heavy old spruce and it can be a decent place to make fire if the situation calls for it. When I'm hunting slow, I keep an eye out for tinder. I also look for old healed scars on pines that might yield some good, dry pitch. I keep a little plastic bag full of pitch for special occasions. Sure, the vaseline cotton balls work well (in a little tin) and I have them, but I am a fiend for pitch. There's plenty in Montana where I hunt, less here in Maryland. Once a guy gets a little fire going, I use the best, dry wood to get her strong and then stack the wetter wood both to reflect heat and dry the wood. Sometimes you just have to keep a small fire putting along until you can get the bigger wood ready. It's easy to get impatient and try to build a bigger fire too fast. Sometimes a fire just needs time to sort itself out. As for a real squall, that's hard on making fire. I have had mixed luck with the poncho deal because sometimes the wind is just too much. What I will look for is a root wad or something else massive to form a windbreak and the basis for a hasty shelter. I think of fire as a little baby... and you don't want the baby sitting out in the rain and wind and cold. You want the baby all tucked in someplace quiet.
Ive been considering getting one of those catalitic handwarmers that run off lighter fluid. I usaly carry a poncho and sitpad. Im thinking that the handwarmer might make a bit of difference if i had to spend the night leaning against a tree.
Ive been considering getting one of those catalitic handwarmers that run off lighter fluid. I usaly carry a poncho and sitpad. Im thinking that the handwarmer might make a bit of difference if i had to spend the night leaning against a tree.
I bought one of them last winter and finally tried it last month. Mine is the smaller model from jon-e. It lights up OK by following the instructions, but once I place it back in the little red Crown Royal bag fire will got out if I close the top at all. It does this just sitting on my coffee table while watching the tube, so I'd imagine the performance will be even worse when I try to stick it inside my coat. I intend to call the mfg and find out what's wrong.
While I love gadgets and gizmos as much as the next guy, I'm not a big fan of anything that runs on butane (lighter fluid). It doesn't do well in extreme cold. I'm not a big fan of the heating things with sticks. They feel heavy to me for the amount of warmth. If I wanted "canned" heat, I'd toss some tear-and-use chem heaters in my fanny pack. I'd probably use them by tucking one under each arm to help my core temperature.
The best way to have a "white man's fire" is to build your fire at the base of a good dry snag. Under the right (or wrong) conditions, you can get a 40' tall campfire. Don't ask me how I know this.
If you get a fire going, you can heat stones to act as body warmers. They can work pretty well and toss off a good amount of heat over the course of a cold night. I also think some guys neglect building a reflector. This not only throws more heat but it helps draw the smoke. (Some guys never figure out why smoke follows them.)
I suggest the rules of "three" when it comes to making fires. Always carry at least three separate ways to make fire. Always carry three separate tinders. Always carry firemarking supplies in three different places. Continuing on the theme of "Don't ask me how I know," but it is possible to tear off a fanny pack and scatter its contents over a hundred feet of steep mountainside. It's also possible to tear the pocket off a wool shirt or to fall in such a way as to empty one's pockets. It's also possible that a container that starts out at the beginning of day as "waterproof" can, through hard work and amazing luck, become "waterlogged." You may never need three ways to start a fire, but when you do, it's good go have them.
I'm with Hampstead, and have begun to carry a firestarter on my neck knife lanyard occasionally when I'm bowhunting.
Those tear-open chemical packs are fantastic, and light. A really nice feature is the ability to shut them off for later use by sticking them into a Ziploc bag. I'm not a big treestand guy, but I can stay in one all day in subzero temps and wind with the use of them. I even found a velcro pouch belt in a drugstore that places a large pack over each kidney...unbelievably effective.
A trick that a friend showed me might come in handy for you Copenhagen users. The wax that impregnates the cardboard portion of the snuff can will smoulder and burn for a while 10-15 minutes with the lid on, giving you a little pocket handwarmer. I'll keep my firestarter kit in a Copenhagen can for that possibility. Once all the wax is burned out after 2-3 relights, the cardboard makes for a good fire tinder.
90% of the time that Im in the woods its day hikeing in areas that that a large fire would be inapropriate. Though I like a good blaze a much as anyone, I would rather maintain my comfort zone for an unplanned bivioak, leaving no trace and choose who I fess up to than get "rescued" bye the fire department. Having a can of lighter fluid along with my other fire making stuff wont hurt If its time to start burning logs.
Well, I haven't carried a Zippo (naptha) lighter since my Navy days. Are guys still packing them? Nowadays, I think most guys carry Bic lighters or the fancier "storm proof" refillable lighters based fueled by liquid butane under pressure. Personally, I haven't had good luck with butane at very low temps and high altitudes. I did a little surfing and it looks like isobutane burns down to about 15 degree F. I also found a number of complaints about butane lighters that failed to work at above 9000 feet. I have a nice lighter as part of my gear (Christmas present years back) but I don't count on it.
As for large fires, back when I worked in the woods in NW Montana things were a bit more relaxed. When I am packing, I don't mind treading lightly and leave little sign of my passing. If I am jammed due to weather, an injury or other circumstances, I don't care if I have to clearcut a thicket and burn a cord of wood. The trees will grow back. As for 'fessing up, I agree with the line in the cheesy movie where the guys get caught in the Alaska bush. Shame will kill a man. If I need to be rescued, I'm not overly particular about who does it... as long as it gets done.
I'm a confessed gadget lover, and have wanted to try the little jon-e pocket warmers since I was in about the second grade, freezing my azz off helping my dad with farm chores in the cold, wet Willamette Valley winters. I don't need one now, but bought it out of curiousity, and as a possible option to keep my wifes mitts toasty should I be able to con her into coming outside with me. BTW, I'm not sure what the magic jon-e fluid is, but it kinda sticks while the warmer is burning.
I agree with having multiple means of starting a fire. I'm almos overboard with my "what if" thinking, but the only down-side to that is the additional gear weight. I gladly exchange that slight discomfort for the knowledge that I'll live like a king if I'm lost or otherwise hung up.
Try using a quality wool base layer and then try a Patagonia Capliene base layer in it's place. You'll notice that wool of the same thickness is a bit warmer, but it dries out no where near as fast as capliene.
Quick-drying is nice, but not much use if you're in conditions that don't give the chance to dry out.
The best way to have a "white man's fire" is to build your fire at the base of a good dry snag.
Good info Hampstead but I feel like I ought to say that building a fire against a tree and especially against a snag is dangerous. The fire will eat at the base of the standing tree and undercut it to fall toward you, right across the fire. That nearly killed a good friend of mine one night. It is tempting to build a fire against the base because it is such an effective reflector and fire sustainer. Old timers warned me about that.
Well, I wouldn't normally build a "white man's fire" on a snag and then bivvy out. For an unexpected night out, I like a fire about the right size that I can feed it by hand without getting up and losing thermal energy. Burn a snag and you might have to set back 20' to get comfy.
Years ago, I was moose hunting up near the NW Territories. The tracked rig meant to get us to base camp broke down. I made a nice little fire and slept in my woolies pretty comfortably. One of my best memories of the hunt was waking up to stoke the fire and seeing an artic fox looking at me.
Ah, the ol siwash. The last time I did this was above treeline on a walk in sheep hunt a couple years ago. We got a ram a couple drainages from our tent and it got dark on us before we could get back. Blowing, raining, cold. No way to build a fire. I just hunkered in next to a big ol rock, put on all my clothes, rain gear, wrapped up in a foil type survival blanket, laid down on my pack and curled up inside my extra large OR pack cover that doubles as an emergency bivy bag/tarp. If you have the right clothing and something to keep the rain off it's not that big of a deal. Oh, and there are better alternatives to Gaines burgers- I had salami and cheese for breakfast after that siwash.
I will eat cheese and salami when I'm hungry. I'll only eat Gaines burgers when I'm down to brass tacks. As making camp, a good way to teach woodscraft is to play "hunker." You walk for a spell in the woods with a kid and then you ask, "What's the best to hunker down that you've seen so far"? I've seen guys that don't think about a camp until its nigh on dark. It's an old habit, but as I hunt I always think about what might make a particularly good spot. It's a little mental game that helps me slow down in my hunting, feel the country a little better and once in a great while, it's nice to have seen a good spot because you need it.
When it is cold and wet I prefer to concentrate on the shelter aspect as a priority over the fire.
It is too easy to get hypothermic trying to get a fire going.
Bundle up first then pile some wood up in a sheltered place. If you then pull on an emergency bag and sit on your sitpad with your back against a shelter tree you can usually do ok.
It is a lot easier to start that fire without your teeth chattering and if you can't you can usually get by.
I got in a rain sleet storm one time and kept trying to start a fire a little too far out in the wind and got to shaking so bad I couldn't manage it or much else. I'm mnot sure what would have happened but it blew over and I got in the lee of some rocks and the sun warmed me up.
I've been in some pretty heavy weather and there haven't been many times I have given up on making fire. I like to find a little hidey-hole where I can hunker, get out of the weather and at least get little blaze working. Fire just isn't about heat. There's something that just makes a guy feel like anything is possible when there's a little fire working. As for body heat drying out clothes, sure, but I'm awful fond of fire.
I keep one of the cheap foil space sleeping bags in my pack, never used it. I have used a regular space blanket, noisy and reminded me of the tin man of Oz!
The Ptarmigan Bivy weighs only 6oz, might be a good idea to stuff one of these in a daypack for emergency use. A pard uses one under a tarp shelter as part of his sleep/shelter system and says it works well with his 30deg WM down bag.
I've always followed the idea of staying dry from the outer storm. I don't let that get me wet by much. What's always been a problem is getting too wet from the inner storm. That's what has always chilled me. Even if I stop and put on more clothing. Without taking off everything wet, being wet, especially at the base layer, I would chill. With the coming of Patagonia's Capliene, used in conjuction with pit zip outer shells, and/or fast drying insulation layers, I've always stayed dry enough before I'd chill using them. I've used wool for many years. Still do for some uses. But, even with super fast drying insulation layers and excellent venting shells, wool base layers still chills me where my Capliene base layers don't. I've used this stuff in heavy rain, working hard, and had it dry amazingly fast just from my body heat. Wool won't do that. I've used their super fast drying Regulator Fleece and found it much better as an insulating layer as well. E
I had some cheaper polypro stuff that I bought from Sierra Trading Post a few years back, but it started hitting the skids (pun there ), and on a recent hunt in the Sonoran desert, I wore some regular cotton underwear.
Welp, even in the desert, walking for a few miles I broke a sweat, and when the only cotton garment you're wearing is underwear, you quickly realize the difference the Capilene and good synthetics is making everywhere else on your body.
Even in mild weather, my nether regions got noticeably cold(er) as the cotton stayed damp and everything else dried. A light late afternoon breeze picked up, and there you go.
So now I'm back to full synthetic/wicking/fast-drying stuff, mostly Patagonia, as a first layer, from toes to neck.
I'm thinking this might be a great piece of emergency gear for spending a non campfire night out away from camp due to events: Kifaru Woobie
I talk to the designer of this poncho liner tonight and he said they are selling like hotcakes. It's fairly light and compressible, and could add therms to an existing sleeping bag/system. The Climashield Combat insulation needs no quilting due it's continuous filaments. Stuffed in one's daypack, a woobie might be a lifesaver against hypothermia.
Pitzips on a shell garment are meant to aid in diffusing heat and allowing cooler air to reach the torso, now, HOW can these act to assist with RETAINING body heat, one wonders?
Well, guess what, they DON'T as those of us who actually have some wilderness experience know very well. When was the last time anyone saw an Arctic parka with pitzips OR a commercial fisherman using them in his raingear?
My latest shell doesn't have them, thank gawd and it stays DRY as a bone in a driving BC coastal rainstorm, where my older Gore-Tex parkas with pitzips would allow such rain to get inside through them and make me wet. Fortunately, wearing merino wool kept me relatively warm, something quite crucial where cold and wet are a regular part of life.
As to amounts of rain, the BC coast has the highest average in North America, only a small area in SE Alaska is equal and I have found pitzips to be largely a waste of weight plus they interfere with pack straps.
For wet, cold, give me an eVent shell, for dry windly cold, I prefer a Ventile parka, although they are now very hard to find.
You ever wear a Balaclava? I have a fleece balaclava that really helps seal in the heat when stationary. If you're really brave, try sleeping with one inside a mummy bag. You'll be roasting in no time!
With properly vented outer clothing, your own body heat will dry them out. That means a parka with pit zips for starters. E
I'm talking a worst-case scenario--soaked to the bone, no fire, no shelter. If I'm going to be wet and stay wet, I want to be wearing wool.
let's add one more factor....and a 3 day hike to the truck.....
I used to feel the same way and I wore wool for many years hunting in Montana. The problem with wool is it is very heavy when wet and takes a long time to dry. I do however sometimes wear poly or acrylic wool blend, but less than half wool in the blend, drys much faster. With synthetic briefs, base layer, and fleece insulating layers you can still stay warm when wet. And, with good raingear on you can actually dry yourself from the inside out. Your body heat will push moisture through to the outside layers of fleece under your raingear. Wool has it's place but if I'm in the high country above treeline in a storm and 2 or 3 days hike from my rig I want synthetics.
I'm trying to get where I can take the older son (16years almost) for a three day/two night outing with minimum gear. I like the "Woobie." Gonna ask the boys who's used them next time at reserves.
I prefer pitzips myself , this NF goretex shell has them and i dont get any leakage , this is what u call wetted out.By the way this bou was in full velvet before i started packing him off the mtns in the background .
I've used wool for many years. Still do for some uses. But, even with super fast drying insulation layers and excellent venting shells, wool base layers still chills me where my Capliene base layers don't.
I have referred to the skin-chilling effect of synthetic base layers here on a number of occasions; this occurs because of it's rapid wicking which tends to produce a cooling by evaporation, making skin feel colder.
Now, it seems that Eremicus finds this true of wool, which is not my experience and I have never heard this from anyone using it. Funny that he has not mentioned this prior to now, must not be mentioned on the Patagucci label or promo material, I guess.
Concerning pitzips, of course they will vent body-warmed air, that is their major purpose and when excessively heated as with rdmtn's Caribou packout, they do help to cool you off, but, they will not vent all of the moisture or prevent cold water entering at the part of your body most susceptible to heat loss due to a lack of fat-muscle insulation, most heads excepted, of course.
Merino wool, not just any wool or blend, will work with eVent shells better in severe cold and in extreme wet, as well. I own and use both and have for years, the pitzips simply are extra weight and bulk and are rather inefficent technology compared with merino/eVent.
Synthetics work OK in moderate conditions, but, spending a week or more in the same base layer will soon teach you the overall superiority of virgin merino, especially Icebreaker. With this, I now do not have to carry a spare undershirt and only one spare gonch plus a pair of spare socks...a weight saving important to a 60+ backpacker.
What kinds of wool ? Penelton shirts, Woolrich shirts, cape shouldered shirts, and pants, Filson pants, Cabela's pants ( whipcord and 24 oz.) and lately Patagonia's Merino Wool base layer. I've also used wool union suits of brand(s) I can't remember years ago. E
I haven't mentioned the differences between the very best grades of Meriono Wool base layer, what you always recommmend, and Patagonia's Capliene because I've just started using it in the last year. The so called "skin chilling" effect of synthetic base layers is something that has been very short lived and never has chilled me simply because I open or close my pit zips as the need arises. I've even gone as far as getting myself good and wet while doing things like snowshoeing just to see if it would be a problem. Even when I don't peel my insulation layers and get good and wet, the stuff has always dried out faster than I can chill. Using the Merino Wool base layer under the same conditions, w/o even pushing it, I get wet and stay wet. Can't sit and glass for long, for instance, even with all my extra clothing on like I can with the Capliene base layer. I might add that this only applys to Patagonia's Capliene vs. their Merino Wool base layer clothing. It only applys to their Regulator insulation layers as well. Other types of fleece insulation doesn't dry nearly as well. If the insulation layer doesn't dry out, the base layer, even Capliene, doesn't dry out as well. I've used Capliene with wool insulation layers. It, the Capliene, doesn't work as efficently there either if the wool gets wet to any degree. It all has to work together if you want to see the best results. E
I have referred to the skin-chilling effect of synthetic base layers here on a number of occasions; this occurs because of it's rapid wicking which tends to produce a cooling by evaporation, making skin feel colder.
Kutenay, you're the first I've heard say this. I came to the same conclusion from use, yet when I said so, some of my backprack friends clad in name brand synthetics looked at me like I was speaking heresy. Moving water rapidly away from skin lowers the surface temp of the skin: that's simple physics. It is also the biology of sweat glands. I still wear them for most of my hunting, but I'm seldom in extremes.
I think Rick Bin has it right as to our differences in preferences: he's not in coastal BC, nor is redmtn. I owned one pit zip mtn parka and have avoided that feature since. On a hike in the north Cascades of WA in early Fall, fairly dry climate, it was a nice feature however.
My rule of thumb for any sewn or stitched item for use in long term, unrelieved wet is the fewer opening the better, and the fewer seams and stitch holes etc. the better.
FWIW, musing through this thread has given me a tentative stab at another rule of thumb: If an area will grow any kind of pine tree, it won't be too hard to start nor sustain a fire.
I'm not yet sure whether that is true, but it is close. Maybe I just don't remember but I don't recall pines growing in the truly sopping wet areas that never dry out, like Ocean Falls, B.C.
This is a great forum and a great thread. I even bought some gear because of it!
Added a few minutes later: Looks like E and I crossed posts and I was typing as you posted.
One other thing I've noticed is how wet the outside surface gets on any porous outer garment when I wear a synthetic like Capilene as a base layer. That must partly be a factor of humidity because in drier air it would evaporate fast enough not to notice I would think. Sure wish I was out using the stuff instead of here typing today.
What kinds of wool ? Penelton shirts, Woolrich shirts, cape shouldered shirts, and pants, Filson pants, Cabela's pants ( whipcord and 24 oz.) and lately Patagonia's Merino Wool base layer. I've also used wool union suits of brand(s) I can't remember years ago. E
Thanks, E. Was curious if you'd used the newer types of very thin wools such as Smartwool (the only one I've tried) or Icebreaker. I suppose the Patagonia is similar but haven't seen or tried it.
Personally, I've mainly used synthetic under layers with wool outer layers, and lately have wondered if that isn't backwards. Might it be better to to have something that's always warm closer to the skin, under a quick-drying synthetic outer layer?
I'll second Kutenay on the odor properties of even good synthetics. I used a Capilene shirt (among others) for quick-wash travel clothes in Africa and found it could get pretty ripe. Worse yet, I once wore an Under Armour Loose Gear T to work out in the D.C. summer heat, and forgot to take it out of my gym bag for a few days after that. It was nice and dry, but I probably should have been required to register it as a bacteriological weapon!
Redmtn, now that's a notable item on a resume. There can't be many people who actually lived at Ocean Falls.
A further thought on synthetic base layers: Even when the skin does not feel cold, the body is losing heat as the wicking material transfers out water. That's good, except in extreme cold or long exposure to cold. It amounts to burning calories to heat outside air, and sooner or later leads to loss of core body temp. I have felt that coming on while wearing a synthetic base and porous outer layer, and added an outer shell to stop the heat loss. That also stops the moisture loss, even with breathables if you are sweating heavy, but wet and warm is better than cold, wet or dry.
It is a classic trade-off. Keeping skin and inner clothing dry aids in keeping warm by not having insulation spaces fill with water and losing their insulation properties. But inner body heat is what drives this engine, cooking off moisture and heat. As long as you can fuel the body enough to lose heat at that rate without a drop on core temp, it works well. It will work well in most climates, especially for short forays.
John Frazer, your idea of reversing the wool to wear as a base layer and the wicking synthetic outside has intersting possibilities. I will have to try that.
From the military point of view, we like the ability to strip to the skin, whirl the polypro around in a fast circle, and the item is now almost moisture free.
put it back on, put on a wind barrier over that, head out.
I have referred to the skin-chilling effect of synthetic base layers here on a number of occasions; this occurs because of it's rapid wicking which tends to produce a cooling by evaporation, making skin feel colder.
Interesting concept. I've missed your posts regarding this as this is the first I've heard of it and have never experienced it. I don't believe I've ever had moisture wicked away TOO fast and usually wish it would go faster than it does.
Body moisture evaporation rates are proportional to the relative humidity. At a high RH like when it's raining, I can get as wet from inside as the outside. It's the wet conditions and being active when I wish for pit zips in garments that don't have it. I love my HH Impertech, but wish the jacket had pit zips. I think that would prevent condensation (or at least reduce it) on the inside of the jacket.
Just received a replacement Patagonia Micro-Burst pant. Going to put on my Ether Shell and these pants, and jump in the shower for a while to see what happens.
I'll wear dark cotton underneath so that I can easily find all leaks once I get out.
John Frazer, your idea of reversing the wool to wear as a base layer and the wicking synthetic outside has intersting possibilities. I will have to try that.
It's not at all original with me -- a friend who's a serious ultralight backpacker/trail runner/ice climber/SAR team member is a big devotee of wearing an Icebreaker or Smartwool base layer under a softshell jacket and pants. When he stops moving, he puts on a big puffy Primaloft jacket over top of everything.
He's in southwestern Colorado, so he's dealing with cold but dry conditions--at least externally dry. His activities would certainly create the "inner storm"!
Well, I've read with great interest all these posts.
I can't help but remember reading the journals of Lewis and Clark and other explorers of the North country including the native people who lived day in and day out in the kind of 'stuff' written about here. IMO, these men indurred more day to day 'emergencies' than I can begin to imagine and very likely more than many would care to admit here.
Granted, they most often had one thing not mentioned here and that is a horse or some other way of moving around in the wild country. So this is a back packing forum but I have to ask, "Has anyone ever looked into what the men carried before the days of Gortex, and the like"? What was used for boots by Lewis and Clark and their men when they crossed the contintental divide in deep snow? How did the Indians of the plains or anywhere for that matter, survive if caught out like is being talked about here? Sure some of them died but they learned fast or died. They learned from their fathers how to live in the wild every day.
In those days a man without a horse was a dead man for the most part and that's why horse thieves were shot on the spot by the 'white man'. Same holds true for Indians stealing horses from their enemies.
The one item that was indespendsable to these men was an oil skin (or the like) poncho with a hood. Getting soaked to the skin in the winter was avoided if at all possible. They wore oil skin chaps or like on their legs. Two layers of oil skin were on their shoulders in a cape like fashion. When they had to spend the night out in foul weather the poncho was their tent AND sleeping bag. They trapped their body heat inside with the hood. They kept dry to begin with.
How?
They went through the country and didn't sweat by adjusting to the outdoors as they walked.
All this talk about sweating and getting chilled from the moisture means to me that possibly some of us are moving too fast to begin with. I hunt chukars in very steep mountains in the winter and burn a lot of calories all day long. At the first sign of sweating I adjust my clothing and it's not unusual to have only a shirt on in cold weather...even just a long sleeved Capilene tee shirt!!! Yep, and the wind is howling around me but I'm comfortable. I can't even wear a hat most of the time. I don't wear long jons either. But I carry Filson chaps, a poncho that's rain proof and some extra clothing in my fanny pack. I stay dry and if I start to get cold I slip on more clothing.
But I stay dry to begin with. I'm 64 now and spent a fair amount of time in the steep country of Idaho in all seasons which included hunting elk with a framed back pack for a week usually. But I ALWAYS KNEW WHERE I WAS AND HOW TO GET TO A TRAIL should the weather turn ugly. I packed out enough elk to know what work it is and now with screwed up back from this I have to hunt with a fanny pack or get a horse.
This inner storm that's mentioned I've experienced from relying on a new Gortex down filled coat that almost got me killed. It'd started to snow way up in the high country and I'd just shot a deer that had to be gutted out before going back to camp. I was in my tee shirt from all the work and when finished put the jacket on and started back to camp. In no time at all the jacket was like tissue paper thin and I made it back OK long after dark (like 4 hours of hiking down a creek trail). I threw the jacket in the trash and went back to my poncho and carrying warm clothes in a big fanny pack.
I don't like these 'breathable' suits because they don't breathe enough for me. I sweat too easily and a poncho allows the heat to escape AND if my pants are kept dry with chaps I'm fine.
I understand Patagonia has made, and maybe still does make, base layer stuff that does not dry out as fast as Capliene. That was to promote the cooling effect by slowing the evaporation rate off of the base layer. I don't use Capliene in really hot weather simply because it's too warm. A light, loose fitting nylon or cotton shirt, that stays wet, works much better. I have no agrument with those that say as the moisture evaporates off of the body, it takes heat with it. My position is that the longer and the wetter the base layer garment gets, the worse this gets. Therefore, it is vital that it dry as fast as possible. Nobody uses cotton, for instance, as a base layer in cold weather. Stays wet too long and absorbs watter too much. Patagonia has lab tests which show the relative merits of each of it's base layers. The Merino Wool base layer stuff dries about 40% as fast as Capliene. But it is also much warmer. My thought in buying it is that I'd get both in one garmet. It didn't work out that way. Some of it might have to do with the area where I was - SW Montana on the east side of the Rockys. However, if it were going to dry out any where near as fast as Capliene, I would think that it would there. Might be that I couldn't get Capliene to dry out enough or fast enough if I spent days in very wet weather. However, I've used it for day long working in hard rain. Gets and stays dry if used it with a pit zip garment. Better than anything else I've used. That also depends on how warmly you are dressed overall. If too warm, anything will get wet quickly when exercising hard. So, maybe that's the important difference. Really wet, day after day wet weather. Where nothing can dry out might give the warmth edge to wool. I don't know. I do have some doubts. E
Really wet, day after day wet weather. Where nothing can dry out might give the warmth edge to wool. I don't know. I do have some doubts. E
E, nothing works well in day after day deep dampness if you can't throw it in a dryer each night. That's why the big majority of hunters who live anywhere near the wet coast go east of the mountains to hunt!
Idahochukar, What did the old timers like Lewis and Clark wear? Heavy stuff. The men who climbed Everest (or tried) 50-75 years ago wore horribly heavy clothes compared to what we have now.
As to wet, read the account of Lewis and Clark. They weren't in rain forest, just the northern Oregon coast. The elk hide clothes they wore rotted on their bodies. They had planned to stay in their winter camp much longer to let snow melt in the passes for their return, but they couldn't stand the wet conditions anymore and bugged out for Idaho early. Survive? Yes. Comfortable? No.
I like Capilene and wear it quite a bit. Nothing is perfect but we have some fabulous gear options compared to the previous few thousand years. And though I'm generally a conservative dinosaur about clothes and gear, I'm expecting us to develop a film or energy field that controls climate next to skin and would allow a man to climb Everst in a T-shirt and shorts, on one set of high energy batteries.
Having lived at Ocean Falls and worked in the bush all over the BC coast and Vancouver Island, plus in the "Wet Kootenays", I can say with certitude that virgin merino wool, under waterproof shells will out-perform ANYTHING now available in long-term, daily use.
I won't wear Gore-Tex in such conditions, waxed cotton and coated nylon are heavy and stiff, thus impeding pack fit, a serious issue for we who tote heavy packs. Nothing will work as well as eVent shells over m-wool or I would use it, I have no interest in using anything less than the most functional.
Now, working in heavy rain, is that like six weeks of 10-12 hour days planting trees in BC coastal March rain or how about an open 14 ft. boat on Georgia Strait in December-January alone on the open ocean? Maybe hiking in February in the Bella Coola-Ocean Falls area in continual rain and winds off the ocean?
Wet, yeah, in BC we KNOW about WET!!!
Climbing, BC is mostly either straight up or straight down and an ice axe, crampons and even ropes are a part of our alpine hunting. I am about to buy a lighter axe, my fourth and alloy crampons for Mule Deer and Bighorn hunting as these keep me safer from falls at my advanced age, I don't hunt on private ranches and close to cities with restaurants to eat in and almost never stay in cabins as the BCFS burnt almost all the old-time ones in the '70s to prevent use by draftdodgers growing dope.
I just had yet another thought, which is dangerous. Native people didn't wear much clothes when the weather permitted, so didn't have much to get wet nor to dry out. Skin dries easily and quickly because it has an inner heat source.
A lot of my days hunting early seasons I could do fine with boots and a jock strap. Leggings would be the only addition I'd want till it got cold, for brush and rock protection of lower legs.
Aboriginal peoples on the BC Coast and into the interior wore and prized "Chilcat Blankets", made of, you guessed it, WOOL from Rocky Mtn. Goats. Later, they made shawls and sweaters from lanolin retaining virgin wool and I wore these for years working in the worst weather of the coast....they work extremely well doen to minus 40 with a shell to cut the wind.
They also used waterproof capes or ponchos of finely woven Cedar rootlets to stay dry and these passed moisture out as vapour while keeping rain off their clothing/skin. Check the BC Museum or UBC Anthropology to see this.
Much of the Everest clothing of Merkel, Mallory and the other Everest greats was BETTER than most of what is now popular and this has recently been verified by use on an expedition. I have had two Ventile parkas and over merino wool and really fine down, they will out-perform ANY other shells in sub-zero cold and high winds.
Synthetics sell because they are cheap and do work quite well, but, if you live in real wilderness and are there for extended periods, you soon find what is best; it simply requires an open mind, independent use and actual experience in such conditions.
What about BUGS when tripping along au natural??? Worst damm sunburn I ever got was doing this on Bulldog Lookout one fine July Sunday in 1974.....ah, the good old days.....
I thought I read the original Everest explorers used a lot of egyption cotton in their layering, as well. Can't remember the book I read that explained that though.
Ventile IS the best grade of Egyptian cotton, very tightly woven and it ROCKS when made into a mountain parka. I have a Synergy Works Ventile Parka that I bought in 1977 and wore continuously until the late '80s, it is worn, but, STILL works although it is a bit tight as I am a bit "larger"than I used to be....time and the crabs and the sweethearting crib...as Dylan Thomas wrote....
NO high-tech parka I have had will compare in utility or versatility of temperature/conditions with this and I have had about every highend one available, I now will only wear eVent shells or a Ventile, if I could get another.
This stuff is mostly out of my area. I do use a lot of Filson Waxed cotton to work in the outdoors and it works well beyond the normal notions of cotton.
Filson is wonderful gear, but, waxed cotton is too heavy and too stiff in severe cold for my taste. I want one of their jackets for just walking my new and old Rottweiler, though, but, gotta wait until next year as I must buy a 4x4 this year and the new pup costs big coin.
With regard to first aid kits, you should take aspirin and nitro glycerin. Even though you may not have heart disease its a proven fact that a good percentage of the people who die each year from a heart attack do not have heart disease but rather die from a heart attack caused by a blood clot that came from somewhere else in the body. Aspirin will thin your blood and possibly help with the clot, and Nitro will help with the pain while you are making your way out, if you are still alive.
Nice to hear back from you. Anyone IMO who enjoys hunting in the rain and cold AND gets wet should have a "Come to Jesus meeting". They get what their craziness deserves. So they carry all this 'stuff' just in case they get stupid. Well, give me a freaken break. 'THERE IS NO SUBSTITUE FOR BRAINS'. How in God's name did we ever live before all this high tech stuff? How can a duck float in water???? Their feathers layer them to stay dry!!!
Too often we try to make the enviroment adjust to us by manipulating what we wear and it's totally against the way of nature. What do the deer and elk do in bad weather? They stay put but no, we intruders into their world want it our way. Go figure that one.
. . . I'm expecting us to develop a film or energy field that controls climate next to skin and would allow a man to climb Everst in a T-shirt and shorts, on one set of high energy batteries.
Now that is what I'm waiting for!!!! Except could you have it run on AA batteries so that the extra's I carry for my GPS could be used on this too?
And that's why I always had a plastic sheet about 12x12 with nylon cord to string between two trees. Put some small rocks in the corners and tie it off to the ground. Makes a comfortable hide out or tent to while away the hours of watching the fog roll in and the rain come down.
Maybe sleep good for a day but that [bleep] will drive you crazy when there's tags to be filled.
I've done 9 days in a very small Kelty Windfoil tent, that was the year of the Siberian Steamroller.
you know times are hard when you're trading paperback books for the 2nd time and it's the same books!
"hey we about outa food?"
my god that was miserable.
I always haul a paperback book when I am going to be in a tent for any length of time, that and nowadays, an Ipod. On some of those days, even 'War and Peace' or the 'Iliad' are interesting!
Boy do I AGREE on the Ipod. It was raining so hard it was driving me nuts. Turned up the Ipod and entered my own little world. Seriously thinking to purchase a solar charger.
For clarification, I don't carry an Ipod on backpack hunts but do like one in camp if the gear is hauled in.
I'm just beginning to wonder what weight you guys carry in these backpacs when hunting? I would occasionally make a spike camp out of my main camp where I would carry maybe 40#s of gear to the main camp. On a spike camp I'd carry my sleeping bag, food for a day and a plasitc sheet to hang b/t two trees. Fir boughs on the ground and I'd be fine.
I traded in my horse for a Rokon and now I'm in heaven at 64. What the hell is an Ipod? You're there in nature but can't give up what you left in civilization??? This is just crazy to me. Slow down for Christ's sake. You're there to enjoy what nature provides and if you regard happiness solely with a six point, then I feel sorry for you.
Forgot to mention: If you get bored with hanging around under a tree (heaven forbid) and you have a tent, put on your jock strap and boots and walk around nude in the woods. You won't be bored for sure
I'm just beginning to wonder what weight you guys carry in these backpacs when hunting? I would occasionally make a spike camp out of my main camp where I would carry maybe 40#s of gear to the main camp. On a spike camp I'd carry my sleeping bag, food for a day and a plasitc sheet to hang b/t two trees. Fir boughs on the ground and I'd be fine.
I traded in my horse for a Rokon and now I'm in heaven at 64. What the hell is an Ipod? You're there in nature but can't give up what you left in civilization??? This is just crazy to me. Slow down for Christ's sake. You're there to enjoy what nature provides and if you regard happiness solely with a six point, then I feel sorry for you.
Jake, hope all is going well, sensing a little hostility here. To answer your questions, I've nevered weighed my hunting pack but go through it before every hunt with a goal to make it as light as possible - never been caught out in the woods overnight but have returned to camp awfully late. I hunted for many years off a motorcycle spike camp, it take me two trips to haul my gear in and I'm guessing 50-60 pounds total but thats with a 4 man tent, tarp, large sleeping pad, stove,etc. I enjoy riding my bike and could see no reason to jam it all into one trip.
An Ipod is a solid state music player, sort of the current generation Walkman. FWIW, I don't like sitting in a tent when its pouring down rain and a little music is relaxing.
I have no clue what you mean by, "...if you regard happiness solely with a six point, then I feel sorry for you." Care to enlighten me?
I'd say it falls under the "different strokes for different folks" category.
old school likes to make the young bucks think they ain't getting it cause of the new fangled stuff.
plus I'd like to see WTF he'd do with a 12x12 sheet of plastic where I bp hunt, you got to walk a long ways down to find a tree!
I could care less of what anyone thinks of the way I hunt, if it makes me happy, mission accomplished.
I couldn't wait to get an Ipod, asked and received one for fathers day 3-4 years ago, skinny little white version that only plays songs, but lite as a feather (well heavy feather) and holds beaucoup songs on it (I guess) as I don't know, it's sitting right in front of me, have never downloaded a song on it and never taken it with me hunting.
you know, maybe I'll drop a few bucks and put some music on it, the boys would probably enjoy it while in the GC!
bender make yourself useful and tell me where to go to download songs, do I have to pay a buck for each one off Apple's site or are there cheaper alternatives that do as well for less?
That's how the wife and daughter get their music (I think). I think you can "burn"? your CDs onto an Ipod. I really shouldn't be speculatin' on dis chit as I don't have one. I had a mini, portable, cassette player one time (that's how old I am) It was hell on batteries and I don't really like being disconnected, and having music mainlined down my hearing holes. I'm more of a radio guy.
I'm just beginning to wonder what weight you guys carry in these backpacs when hunting?
Don't weigh my stuff usually but a good many years ago I carried 26 lbs. total gear for a two night three day late Fall hunt in the North Cascades of WA right along the US/Canadian border. That included rifle as well as sleeping bag, food etc.
I like to hunt with bivvy gear and sleep wherever the hunt takes me, but I don't do that as much as I used to. Last week, if I hadn't had a committment the next day I would have stayed on a lion track in snow and bivvied on his trail without sleeping bag if needed. Excellent opportunity but in the time I had, I never got close enough though I cut it from being 8 hours behind him down to two hours behind. Tried to call him twice but don't think he was within earshot either time.
The reason most of us here discuss gear is not to load up heavy but to take as little as possible within our preferences.
As to sweating, I use sweat as a gauge that I'm moving too fast (or wearing too much) when I'm still hunting timber. But on an approach hike of maybe 1 to 8 miles uphill to get to a place to start hunting, I sweat like a pig. Same when packing out meat. Like several here, I often hike up in minimal clothes then strip down, scrub down and put on my hunting clothes.
Good point, I agree and have found info. here that I have seen nowhere else that has helped my enormously in reducing pack weight and getting better gear, often LESS gear, to help my elderly bod hunt the hills.
That's how the wife and daughter get their music (I think). I think you can "burn"? your CDs onto an Ipod. I really shouldn't be speculatin' on dis chit as I don't have one. I had a mini, portable, cassette player one time (that's how old I am) It was hell on batteries and I don't really like being disconnected, and having music mainlined down my hearing holes. I'm more of a radio guy.
Some of the software for the IRiver at least(like an older Ipod, but with no hard drive) you can record directly from CD's but it is kind of slow. Generally, what I do, using the software supplied with the IRiver is just buy songs off of the internet, they load faster that way, seems like.
Mine is an older unit, I have around 150 songs on it, I think it will hold close to 300? I guess some of the new ones will hold several thousand!
You can import CDs into Imusic on your PC, if you're online at the time the track and albumn names get entered automatically when the song is imported. There a file called Music it all goes into. You can set up other files for each Ipod and click and drag the music from the Music library to your personal file. Then every time you synch the Ipod to your PC any new music loads onto it along with any software updates.
You have to download Imusic from Apple and if you have dialup forget it. You can find a high speed connection, download it, and then burn a CD to get it on your machine. Once you're set up you can take any or all of your CDs and put them on your Ipod for free.
22wrf and Gents, Good evening, A study I saw said, that while monitoring hunters, between the adrenalin rush and hauling kills, they saw worse rhythm abnormalities then they were able to elicit from the same individuals in a stress test. Check with your provider prior to starting an 81mg aspirin therapy. If you have a history of bleeds (ulcers, esophageal,stroke), they can be exacerbated by aspirin. I wouldn't screw with Nitro. It can lower your blood pressure to the point you pass out. It is used to treat chest pain in people with a history of angina or heart attacks. It's NOT to be used "recreationally". You should be talking with your provider at your yearly physical, and make sure he understands what you do. If your "out there", and develop symptoms of a heart attack, take 1 aspirin, sit your ass down and get help. If your having a heart attack, and you try to walk out, you have an excellent chance of dieing. Just hunker down and get help. PLB anyone? Regards,Jim
Ironbender, Ibuprofen,AKA Motrin, NSAID Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, used for low to medium level pain management. Good for sprains/strains,toothaches and your Ipod induced headache, but be careful,as extended use has been known to cause GI bleeds. :-) Regards, Jim
Your experiences and what and how you move in the wild is exactly like mine. I also use sweat as a guide to being comfortable and instantly change my activity in the cold. I wear a hankerchief around my neck (cotten) as a wind break and air trapper. Depending on the weather, it comes off and will get tied to my head to absorb sweat. In the spring, summer and early fall I have to put up with sweating somewhat. I live in the high desert with canyons and mountains as terrain to go into.
So often I find myself looking at the ground when walking-hiking and then I remind myself to walk and NOT look at the ground. It is something that quite a few people have a hard--- if not impossible time ---doing. It can get you in trouble with a stumble or two but go slow. Your walking speed has to slow down as we're not as sure footed as a 4 legged creature who never looks down at the ground when meandering.
WRT Ipods or anything else that's used by a companion sport, it makes no difference to me what goes on as long as I don't have to put up with it. I hate radios on camping-hunting trips except to check the weather channel. Now that you guys can plug into ear phones and I don't have to listen to it, GREAT
Yep, I'm from the old school....having read too much of mountain men and the like and what they experienced. And I'm in no way a tough old fart mountain man type who thinks the high tech stuff doesn't have a place. I am too hedonistic and don't like to be uncomfortable but to add to this I like to bivy out and a poncho always goes with me in the fall and winter....for sure. The music I listen to doesn't need batteries.
I've almost covered the whole trail Lewis and Clark made while in Idaho and I vicariously relive those fantastic times. It all started with reading Stephen Ambrose's "Undaunted Courage" and I've got to say it's wonderful reading, IMO. Check it out !!!
I found this bag while researching, might be the lightest most compact bag yet. This might be a great emergency bag to have in one's daypack, teamed up with a 6oz Ptarmigan bivy!
Yeah, Dose anyone have any experience with these? My first impression, never having handled/used one is that, considering they're not down, their small packed size and light weight are too good to be true. That said, I've been proved wrong before, and Kifaru had their jacket made by the same company with the same insulation (?), and Kute raves about his. Dose a good coat translate into great bags, I dunno, but would be interested in opinions. Regards, Jim
Plenty of reviews here on the Snugpak Softie. I don't think this bag would make a great standalone bag for fall hunting but if dayhunting waay out or with some additional layers it might make an unexpected night out more bearable. This bag has been around awhile and has been thru some refinements over the years.
Mtn. Hunter, 1.9 lbs. ? The WM Iroquois I use goes 1 lb., 9 ozs. in the long size and works well as my all around, hunting back pack bag. Stuffs into 6X12 inch stuff sack. I can use a nylon tarp, my OR bivy sack, or a poncho with it for a minimum, light weight camp. But not for emergency over night stays. Too much to carry and often not needed. I think you need to try out the ensolite pad, w/ bivy sacck or light tarp and the chemical hand warmer method. Try it out in mild weather, then work up to colder weather. I think you'll be surprised how well it works. But, more important, it will give you confidence you can do such a thing and get by if you get caught out over night. E
Well, this thread comes back to life. I guess Step 1 is always being mentally and physically prepared to spend a night out every time you go into the woods. While I enjoyed "Undaunted Courage," I recommend "Deep Survival " by Gonzales. A big part of surviving any situation is getting and keeping your head "right." I gave a copy of Deep Survival to each of my kids.
Gents, Good evening, sorry for resurrecting the dead, but I think this thread should be a sticky. So, Your outside where I live tonight. You have been working hard all day chasing whatever. It's probably around 12 degrees with a steady wind of about 10mph with gusts to 25mph yielding a wind chill in the single digits. Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that you have your Hexamine/flare/lighter pine/birch bark/etc. all nice and dry in your bag, but there isn't anything to burn (everything has been under 10' of water for a year prior to your arrival). In other words, can you survive, nae, be comfortable without a fire? What do you carry/wear that will keep you comfortable/alive when your injured or sick or the circumstances conspire against your finely honed ability at making a fire anywhere/any time? Not being contrary, I'm interested in your responses. I start with wool undies and move out from there. Best Regards, Jim
I read through the entire thread and I'm impressed.
I saw Jone-E handwarmers mentioned as a heat source and I concur that they can be troublesome. I had the same thing happen to me -- working great until you put them in the sack, then they go out.
Believe it or not, Zippo has a handwarmer similar to the Jone-E, but they seem to actually work. That is, they get too hot burning in the open and moderate somewhat in their little supplied sack.
Of course, these things burn fuel and make CO (I imagine), so you don't want one in a bivvy if you pull your head inside. My experiments show they work well if you leave your face exposed outside the bivvy. (Exhaled moisture from your breath doesn't help your insulation stay dry, anyway...)
These things might be an option to an external fire, especially in areas where they are hard to build due to 150" of annual rain.
One of the most inportant things to remember when choosing gear to pack in is (Try it before you trust it)
Take it out and use it in the brush and see if you like how it works, This thread is great. I just read it all today, thanks for bumping it. Threads like this can help in chosing gear and can savemoney for others.
The most important factor is being in physical shape, having a metabolism which has experienced severe cold so your subconcious system knows how to react to it, and having your body loaded with sufficient and proper fuel.
All the gear in the world is useless once you get soaking wet. Look at those Special Forces who died of exposure on a training exercise in Florida in temperatures of 54 degrees.
You have to keep some gear and clothing dry.
A friend and I got caught in a weather change from 55 degrees to freezing rain and 70 mph winds which shredded our tent. We loaded up and walked out in the dark, descending 4,000 feet in 18 miles that we had covered earlier that day. At one point, my partner had such severe hypothermia that he went blind, and we had to stop and huddle while our clothing froze. When the freezing rain and sleet turned to a warmer drizzle, we got up and made it to an Adirondack, where we shed our wet clothing and got into our dry sleeping bags and warmed up.
I certainly found out what worked and what didn't. If we had both not been in super physical conditioning and had the nuts, dried fruit, and jerky to eat, we could not have kept hiking and generating heat to stay alive.
Lee How do you get metabolism used to cold? I mean if we get a cold snap here its under 30... My wife is a triathlete and duathlete, IE in better shape than most folks and gets damn cold, much colder than I do. Her BP is athletic, IE 100/50 appx....
I hate to say it but I don't think it's possible to acclimate to the cold. It's not like we're going to grow fur or anything! A scientific argument would be that of homeostasis. Metabolism in the body is conducted at a very consistent 98.6 degrees. Turn the heat up or down, you're still going to be 98.6 degrees (unless you're fighting an infection). The body doesn't want to be anything else. That's why we shiver when we're cold and sweat when we're hot. The body puts up a good fight to resist change. That said, my cousin comes up from Florida and can't cry enough about how cold it is here. He also rants about how his blood got thin living in Florida and how all the hundred year olds Willard Scott says happy birthday to on tv are from up North here where the cold makes us more hardy people. I think it's BS.
I am usually not far from my 4X4 when hunting. I carry only a few basic items. I know the area where I hunt like the back of my hand, and don't really need much more than some TP, water, Cliff bar and a few knives.
If I am hiking on the Florida Scenic Trail, or the AT, its a different story.
I hate to say it but I don't think it's possible to acclimate to the cold. It's not like we're going to grow fur or anything! A scientific argument would be that of homeostasis. Metabolism in the body is conducted at a very consistent 98.6 degrees. Turn the heat up or down, you're still going to be 98.6 degrees (unless you're fighting an infection). The body doesn't want to be anything else. That's why we shiver when we're cold and sweat when we're hot. The body puts up a good fight to resist change. That said, my cousin comes up from Florida and can't cry enough about how cold it is here. He also rants about how his blood got thin living in Florida and how all the hundred year olds Willard Scott says happy birthday to on tv are from up North here where the cold makes us more hardy people. I think it's BS.
I'm not sure I totally agree with you here about acclimating to the cold. Perhaps the term "acclimation" is not entirely precise, but I'm pretty sure the basic concept is sound.
As you, yourself mentioned, people from warm climates tend to complain bitterly about even slightly cool temperatures, not to mention what they do when they get a chance to experience real cold. Such people also seem to be more prone to hypothermia than those who spend a lot of time in the cold. I routinely go outside and recreate in temperatures that would literally paralyze my younger brother (who lives in sunny southern Kalifornia).
People who live at higher altitudes (which are usually colder) generally have more red blood cells than do people living at lower altitudes. This is because the air there is thinner and so; more red blood cells are needed to get enough O2 to the body. Many endurance athletes purposely live and train at higher altitudes so that when they go down to lower altitudes to compete, their blood is thicker and can carry more O2, which in turn allows them to perform better. It's essentially a "legal" way to "blood-dope." Perhaps this higher quantity of red blood cells and subsequent higher levels of O2 also helps explain this idea of "acclimation to cold."
I've learned over time how to head out into the woods and survive for days without carrying too much weight. My pack used to weigh around 90lbs when I first got into backpacking. Now I just take basic nessesities. I also stopped lugging alot of water weight by using small water filters for drinking water while hiking and boiling water for camp use.Also I used to take canned foods which hold alot of water weight,now it's freeze dried foods,jerky (which can be rehydrated) and I find edible plants while camped. I also stopped using a typical tent for shelter,now I use a small bivy shelter and a fleece sleeping bag. For inclement weather I use a rainproof poncho and a fleece jacket and cap when it gets cold. My main focus is keeping weight down, it just slows me down.
I have lots of the same stuff, but since I clean my deer after taking out of the woods, I carry a saw that fits in a small can. I think they call it "pocket chain saw". I also carry a "BlastMatch", in addition to a lighter and water / wind proof matches. I always have my pack, because you never know what might happen and I have things that I need for the hunt anyway.
Rob- the body not only "gives a good fight" to resist being cold, it also adapts.
If I've been leading a "normal' lifestyle of interior-dwelling, then go on - say - a several day back-pack trip in sub- freezing temps, I'm cold the first hour or so, and dress and shed accordingly. Within an hour or two, however, my metabolism kicks into another gear (usually about an hour, with some adjustment thereafter), and after a day or so out there in the outdoors, when I come back into a 68 or 70 degree room, I have to strip to my undies to be comfortable for some hours afterward. (I have a reputation in the local McDonalds! )
30 years ago, in my first fall in the Arctic, it took exactly one October weekend trip to figure out that Coleman single-burner, with freeze-dried food was just not as good for a 3-day trip as a dozen 8" frozen tom-cod (eaten frozen, guts, feathers, and all!) and a 6 inch square of muktuk, also eaten frozen, but sliced into thin slivers, with a quarter to half-inch of blubber on the skin. (Them Eskimos have learned a thing or two over the centuries....)
The fish, I think, is mostly for mild protein gut-filler, while the muktuk contributes bookoo carbohydrate calories for heat. The Coleman (or other heater) is right handy for the "luxury" of brewing up some hot, heavily sugared tea, tho! I've used Jello similarily to the tea, in less harsh climes.
I think that the more one goes back and forth between indoors and out, the more readily the body adjusts to the differences.
Mental set also contributes. If you "know" you are going to miserable the whole time- you probably will be. If you "know" you will adjust shortly, it's gonna be a whole lot more pleasant of a misery.
The body definitely adjusts to heat and cold. It takes a while, but I know it happens, so I am convinced the subconcious regions of the brain which control things like breathing, blood flow, digestion, release of sugar and adrenalin, can learn from experiences and adjust the response of these systems.
Tests with people who have repeatedly endured extreme cold, like Navy divers and trappers in the North, have shown that their bodies ramp up the burning of sugars and fats to keep the core temperature much higher than normal people, so that they can survive in water below 40 degrees for more than an hour, and still think and function.
The same is true with heat and humidity. The body has to learn to sweat and to regulate its temperature.
You don't need a medical degree to know this. I know it from personal experience, and from studying experiments on how some people can become conditioned to surviving cold temperatures which would quickly kill most other people.
I also know it from being an engineer who helped develop vital signs monitors, and from participating in one of the early tests myself, which involved treading water in cold water for several hours.
Scientists use thermal imaging and internal sensors inserted through the nasal passage and esophagus to monitor core body temperatures.
Yeah, Dose anyone have any experience with these? My first impression, never having handled/used one is that, considering they're not down, their small packed size and light weight are too good to be true. That said, I've been proved wrong before, and Kifaru had their jacket made by the same company with the same insulation (?), and Kute raves about his. Dose a good coat translate into great bags, I dunno, but would be interested in opinions. Regards, Jim
If you want to read a biased opinion of Snugpack products but that I think is pretty accurate go over to www.wiggys.com and cruise through his archived newsletters from a few years ago. At the SHOT Show this year I asked one of the salesmen at Snugpack about laundering their products...bottom line was you will ruin any of their insulation if it is not professionally dry cleaned. I have a Wiggy's Desert Bag that is rated to 40* but have slept down to 28* in an unheated tent. Stuffed down it is about the size of a large loaf of bread. It has been washed no less than 10 times since purchased in 1995 and is still like new. The Wiggy's sweather and vest I have were purchased in 1997 and have been laundered 3-4 times a year..still good to -10 with no wind. I bought my brother a sweater for Christmas two years ago and it is all he ever wears now.
As to the original question about Surviving a Cold Wet Night... What I carry depends on where I am hunting/hiking. One thing I always have is a lightweight single ply GorTex rain jacket and pants. Over normal clothing it almost acts as a sleeping bag keeping in warmth.
The survival kit size varries depending how far I'll be from the nearest road when out... Some places it fits in a BDU pocket and other times it will be a large Mountaismith lumbar pack. Another thing always carried in addition to any food/snacks for the day is 2-3 energy bars that are never eaten except in case of emergency.
For those that don't think the body adjusts to the cold I suggst reading "The Long Walk" about escaping a Russian prison train...a great and inspiring read.
Old Indian saying "white man only face, Indian all face". Don't know who said it, but it means the native Americans were able to withstand the weather with less or little clothing compared to the pioneers of early days. I went on a week bow hunt in WVa and stayed in a tent. Used only the campfire for cooking and warmth. Started out wearing plenty of clothing then went to a hooded fleece pullover and light camo jacket. The ponds froze during the week and had some light snow. Went to eat at my friends Uncle's house later in the week. Walked inside and I thought needles were sticking me in the face. It was the heat in the house, which was awful. After a while I got used to inside and ate a fine meal. When we left to hike back across the mountain to camp, I thought I would freeze to death. We did take a small buck each that week...good times and good memories. Look at some of the "street people" in towns, they wear the same clothes year round and carry "packs" (gear)slung across one shoulder. Something to think about..
All good ideas, but one important thing is missing that everyone who ventures off road should carry. I always carry my PLB, Personal Locator Beacon. I have never had to use it, but it is comforting to know that if something really serious happens, I can push a button and save my life.
Some interesting bits of info here. I think this is only the 2nd time I've been to backpack hunting, but some very informative suggestions here; some I will certainly apply to my backpack. I'm not a novice to the woods, prarie, desert or open sage hills, but its always good to learn a few new things. Thanks to all you guys. Tom
Not sure if it was mentioned as I have not read the whole thread but I carry the small hot shots on all sheep hunts and put one at the foot of my sleeping bag every night, works like a darn...
Beware of the so called waterproof matches that require the special striking surface.
On a couple of types I have tried over here, while the matches are waterproof, the striker surface is not! The ones i am thinking about come in small white bottles like pill containers with the stricker surface the exterior of the lid. I found that when it got damp, the surface tended to disintergrate/dissolve leaving you unable to use the matches.
If you use these it may be worth checking before you come to depend on them..
Get a BIC. Keep it warm and dry in a zip-lock in an interior pocket. Or one of those magnesium striker bars. Nothing else is reliable here in wet Alaska.
I cut that short- the Coglin waterproof matches are good but wimpy, and need to be heftier, and require the striking surface (also subject to dampness). The new "Strike Anywhere" matches are POS, unless you are using and storing them inside your house. Pretty worthless under field conditions. The old ones were great- wish I'd bought 50 boxes. I used to dip them in melted paraffin to make my own "waterproof" matches...
Get a BIC. Keep it warm and dry in a zip-lock in an interior pocket. Or one of those magnesium striker bars. Nothing else is reliable here in wet Alaska.
+1
I carry (2) BIC lighters, very lite and dependable.
Dumbest thing i have done in my life is to not carry good overnight survival gear in Alaska. Was a fly out fly-fishing guide. At least half the time the plane did not stay with us. In 2 seasons did not have an overnight but came close. Could have been rough for me and my clients. I am a NOLS grad and knew better. I had 5 space blankets, 2 flares, pistol, first aid stuff and some waterproof matches. I still highly regret this decision even though it turned out fine.
Beware of the so called waterproof matches that require the special striking surface.
On a couple of types I have tried over here, while the matches are waterproof, the striker surface is not! The ones i am thinking about come in small white bottles like pill containers with the stricker surface the exterior of the lid. I found that when it got damp, the surface tended to disintergrate/dissolve leaving you unable to use the matches.
If you use these it may be worth checking before you come to depend on them..
Get a BIC. Keep it warm and dry in a zip-lock in an interior pocket. Or one of those magnesium striker bars. Nothing else is reliable here in wet Alaska.
Why not both? I usually try to carry 3 methods of starting a fire; Bics, Zippo(spare fuel/wick/flints), sparky stick(s)(BSA model are cheap), and water resistant strike anywhere matches in an waterproof match safe. And some flammable tinder.
Why not both? I usually try to carry 3 methods of starting a fire; Bics, Zippo(spare fuel/wick/flints), sparky stick(s)(BSA model are cheap), and water resistant strike anywhere matches in an waterproof match safe. And some flammable tinder.
Regards, Jim
Me too! Starting a fie is too important to leave to one method. I remember reading "to build a fire" when I was a kid, and it left an impression. Well, that and USAF Arctic Survival School at minus 42 degrees. I ALWAYS carry at least three sources of fire when I leave the truck. Always.
Gents, I don't think there is any danger of this thread dieing any time soon (Thanks again for making it a sticky), and it is worth reading from the beginning, but at 13 pages...do you think it might be worth summarizing our thoughts so far? I'll start: Knowledge, wisdom, common sense, leave your ego in camp, know your limits and heed them, keep your wits about you.
I'm NOT a hunter in the same class as most of you. I don't go to the places you go (yet), but I have spent a few "uncomfortably" cold nights. I understand the concept of keeping your load as light and small as possible, but if you found your self "stuck", in an area with available fuel wood, do/should we carry tools that would allow use to turn it into a fire? My instinct is to carry an axe, saw and knives (northern woodsman mind set) and I know this flies in the face of your light weight philosophy, but folks have said that they would choose their axe and knife over their gun if they had to choose. So do the tools you carry figure into making your cold wet nights survivable if not more comfy?
Alligator, Yes the tool I carry for fire is the same I use for skinning and such. A good fixed blade knife will rendor wood to fire usable sizes. You can break wood down to 18 " leverage breaking it between two trees then baton theknife thru it to split it down to get to the dry inner wood. No ax or saw needed. I do carry a pocket chainsaw in a can. It is the size of a skoal can but can be invaluable in shelter building.{NOT the cheap wire saws
I carry an axe in the boat and on the snowmachine, but I also often carry a chainsaw in both as well. always in the boat, on s.m. only if I'm pulling a sled behind it.
but hunting I don't carry an axe, if I'm hunting woods that have firewood available, I just don't see the need for it. I can break branches between two trees to split it to get to dry stuff if need be.
Plus if I've erred and am building a fire to survive the night, odds are I'm not building a traditional round shaped campfire.
I'm building two fires about 7 ft. in length using mostly whole limbs and trees. I'll build them close together then separate them, sleep on the warm ground between them for a few hours or however much sleep I can get.
not faulting guys that carry an axe, it just doesn't make weight for my needs on a true bp hunt. YMMV
I take a small daypack full of gear even if just going out to the tree stand or fly fishing. But an item like an axe which is great for sure is just too much. I have a small saw that can be tossed into any pack and it has cut a pile-o-wood for the stove so guess it would perform well in one of those I shouldn't be alive crazy adventures. Not that this would happen to me. Come to think of it that's what they all say.
On the subject of starting a fire, I had a thought after I disassembled an old grill. Always save parts to things that may be useful later.
I took out the ignition plunger, and notived it had two wires coming from it. Get the wires close and it sparked (also provided a shock if held). Hmmm. Some fuels only require a spark - gases like butane and propane and perhaps a source less volatile. I am going to see how it works with something like vaseline and cotton balls. IF it does, it is a light and pretty cheap ignition source. Actually found one that has a piezo igniter and is made for stand alone use: http://www.irawoods.com/Maverick-BL-02-Piezo-BBQ-Safety-Igniter. If nothing else, it is a lightweight backup.
"If 2 decent butane lighter go south at the same time, your luck already ran out before you stepped foot into the woods."
I Kinda hafta agree on that as well. Although, I still keep a small waterproof butane Bullet-Lighter. Like a small silver pill on a key chain. 7 bucks on ebay.Peace of mind.Lets face it..the conditions that will destroy one lighter, will also destroy the other.. Thats why paranoia is so useful...I might be paranoid, But Im always ready..:)
My pack is similar to others but one item I have added to my kit is packets of powdered Gatorade. Add to warm water and it works great for combatting Hypothermia. It doesn't act as a diuretic like coffee or tea and the sugar will give you a boost. Also I would like to suggest that all posters take a Wilderness First Aid course if they haven't had any military training. The Boy Scouts now require having at least one trained leader on any backcountry trip.
I have saddle bags on 4 of my 7 snowmachines, there's one in ever sled that has bags, oughta toss one in the back compartment of the ones that don't have bags.
but I don't take on bp hunting, just doesn't make weight for my needs and the rare times I'd really need it.
but winter, danger of going through overflow and needing to get a fire started PDQ hard to beat it ime
I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow but, I can tell you, the number one way to help prevent a cold wet night if you're stuck out there somewhere and find it best to batten down the hatches and stick it out overnight is ....
... with a poncho and poncho liner, a big knife and some good fire-starting material and some knowledge in your head.
I was thinking about this topic the other night. Not even thinking about a cold, wet night but just a night, alone in the wilderness that you didn't plan on having.
I truly believe that the mental portion is a HUGE key. Most of us could walk out into the wilderness with little or no supplies and be fine for a couple of days. We would be prepared, mentally for the challenge. On the same hand, many of those same folks, even ones with survival gear and even knowledge, would have a much more difficlult time spending those couple of days in the wilderness when it is unplanned. I just wonder how many people become frantic with just the thought of being lost or just having the possibility of being stranded somewhere overnight? (will it be a few hours? a day? A few days? a week? You just may not know) I believe that if you can get past the mental part of being lost or simply stranded, you will be so much better at coping with a "cold and wet" night.
Good info in this thread so far and a few things that I might not have thought about before. One of the many reasons I love this site!
My mental problem is worrying about the folks who are worrying about me! (BTDT, by the way.)
I've little concern about myself being stuck out; during most of my hunting I'm pretty well supplied for it, and mentally I'm prepared -even expecting it, sometimes. The things that gnaw in the back of my head concern the huntin' buddies who're left in the dark, entertaining their imaginations with all the dire things that might have happened to me. Their exertions to find me would be so much greater, so much more frantic and exhausting, than what I'd need to do to make it through the night. I'd be huddled out of the rain under my tarp; they'd get soaked while searching the hills. I'd have a cozy fire at my knees; they'd be shivering in the rain and their own sweat. I'd be calm in my own confidence; they'd be nervous wrecks of anxiety. I'd get a poor night's sleep; they'd exhaust themselves in the search and then stay awake in worry. ...
Macrabbit, I hear what you are saying, but I had hunt go south 1 year and was out alone. Went for pack boards while 2 guys took care of a spike elk. When I got back to the elk they were gone and the elk was hung to cool, but it was 10 pm. Thought about spending the night by the elk, and wait for them to return the next morning. But I figured they would be concerned and looking for me so I hiked back out. When I got back to base camp all were asleep with their teddy's. They didn't worry abit because they knew my skill level. My son said he figured I had bivy'd for the night.
Too many of my hunting buddies are fairly high strung; they'd worry & scramble no matter their confidence in me. Two I can think of, offhand, would be more calm about it. They'd both move Heaven and Earth for me if they thought it'd do any good, but their running around would be like chickens who still had their heads. And they'd probably give me some time to work it out myself.
I'll try to get some pics up tomorrow but, I can tell you, the number one way to help prevent a cold wet night if you're stuck out there somewhere and find it best to batten down the hatches and stick it out overnight is ....
... with a poncho and poncho liner, a big knife and some good fire-starting material and some knowledge in your head.
The Poncho Liner! Little Known wonder. Not to be had when I was in, but my Baby Brother (by 6 years) was in the 82nd and got one for my daughter years ago. She is 33 now but it goes where she goes. College, Africa twice, Europe.........
I was a single dad and we backpacked a lot. North Face was favored. I have a liner now also.
My brother NEVER took his sleeping bag in the Army, Poncho And Liner. Made room for other stuff.
I would add some food, but the Knowledge in Head covers that I guess.
I have had a GOOD butane torch, more than a lighter, for 25(?) years, $40 dollars then, and worth it.
BTDT. Assuming you are reasonably emergency prepared, (and especially if you are not!) the first thing you have to overcome is panic- the need to "do something" - to "get out" or to find a point of reference. That feeling working its way up from the pit of one's stomach is - or often can be - overpowering from the reports of lost (mostly dead) participants. I've experienced it. "Don't Panic" is the first rule. It isn't easy. Whatever your resources, don't push dark- start "camping" early - find shelter, wood, water if needed and "make camp" A fire is an amazingly comfortable thing- and drinking mere hot water can help ward off hypothermia.
I've spent several unplanned nights "out" - not knowing exactly where I was - but knowing enough to stay put, build a fire, get into the best shelter possible, etc. until daylight so I could figure out where I was, or, if knowing where I was, to move safely again.
"Don't Panic" ... Easier said than done - but after a few times, it almost becomes a comfort zone- I say this in what you might think kiddingly fashion- but I've gotten myself lost quite a bit over the years! Meaning I didn't know where I was, but knew how to get out of there. Then there is Lost which I've managed by a bit of "creative navigation" to find a reference point. This is not to be confused with haring off willy-nilly in hopes of "finding something recognizable". Exactly.... "Lost" (first letter capatalized) just doesn't worry me that much anymore - the next step is LOST, which I've never utilized, but have come to terms with, if needed. But don't be an idiot either- do the things you should be doing within your means- Basic survival gear, GPS, cell phones, a Sat. phone, PLD, etc are not just for wusses- if you can afford AND USE them. All are mere appendages to the basic map and compass and basic survival gear for the circumstances (it varies). LOST (all cap letters) IS WHERE YOU SIT DOWN AND WAIT FOR SOMEONE TO COME FIND YOU. I've yet to achieve this - but I ain't proud- if I need to, I will.
I carry 2 or 3 compasses - after 30 years of the practice, I actually had 2 compasses go south on me in the same year- the first time it had ever happened - but have been known to lose the primary compass at times somewhere along the line... Do NOT depend on the fancy crap (electronics fail- magnetizem endures!), but do know how to use them over and above basic navigation/survival skills and prep. if the need arises. Anything over basic map and compass, IMHO, falls into the "convenience" category.... Valuable, but not to be fully trusted when the chit hits the fan- I've twice had GPS units fail me when I most needed them. The antanae once, "rollover" at the satellite another second time.
The second thing you (or I, at least) have to fight is embarrassment - no one wants the rescue teams out after you. Once, for me- if you count the lone trooper that came out checking my rig after a misunderstanding with my wife- i.e. WRITE down your plans! An acquaintaince with whom I'd gotten lost the year before told the trooper at the trailhead not to worry- "He's either dead, or he'll make it out on his own. Or he'll build a fire for the rescue helicopter in a day or so." Is that a vote of confidence, or what? I was just a might delayed packing moose meat- the part of the contingency plan the wife hadn't mentally registered when I merely TOLD it to her.... so write it down!
The third thing (2nd and 3rd may be switchable) is the worry of loved ones.
Well, screw # 2 and #3- your job is to survive! So pay attention to #1!
thanks for this topic, i'm a new member here and am going hunting in an unfamiliar area. i had'nt given much thought to what i carried in my pack other than the normal hunting gear only because i usualy hunt familiar areas where i'm never to far from saftey. this time around will be different where ill be with a group where we'll each be dropped in a seperate area. so after reading all these great posts and looking at what other people are equiped with ill be better prepared for the "what if's" so thanks again.
thanks, those guys hut there every year and graciously invited me this time, we'll be connected via vhf so im not worried but it never hurts to be prepared
All I can say is "Fire Paste"... Carry a small tube of this stuff and if you can make a flame to get it lit, you will have fire. I was on a guided hunt in Oregon and the guide turned me on to it. He would light an old dead tree on fire and it would burn so hot and for so long that you had to stay back 30 feet, seriously... Not suggesting such a huge fire, but it certainly beats being found dead in the spring... Buy a tube and check it out sometime.
This post is intended to help others survive a cold wet night or at least think about being prepared for the the worst. Salish had a good post on emergency nite out. It made me realize that even though I carry at all times survival gear in my day pack I really don't know how long I can survive. I was hoping that if others don't read Salish's post on emergency night out that they might take the time to participate on this post. I'm hoping that this post lasts a while and can maybe help save a life.
If at all possible if members could take pic's of their survival kits/gear that they carry in day packs and list suggestions for surviving a night or two or three in wet cold conditions that would be great. Even if you get some time this summer or spring or whenever to actually set up a shelter made from survival tarps blankets etc and post a pic that would be great. I think this backpacking/hunting forum here at the fire is my favorite forum of all. I have myself alot to learn about survival/surviving a cold wet nite and really look forward to seeing pics of day/packs and survival kits/gear. I have two boys I'm trying to teach as much about the outdoors and I have alot to learn. I'm very busy hunting/working and will myself try to post pics soon of what I carry for survival in my day pack. Thanks for participating Chuck
The whole field of bushcraft/wilderness survival has really changed over the last thirty years. Back then, my sources were two books: Larry Dean Olsen's Outdoor Survival Skills, and Richard Graves' Bushcraft. Olsen was more into living like a caveman, and assumed you didn't even have a knife with you. Graves took an approach more similar to modern bushcraft trends, and assumes you have a knife. The modern trend is more geared towards bringing a bunch of essentials, like 550 paracord for example, and focuses more on the specifics of your knife, and various knife skills, than back then. People have more recently become very opinionated about exactly what kind of knife (what steel, blade length, thickness, weight, what shape of blade and other blade characteristics, handle materials, type of grind, etc.) is best for bushcraft/survival, and for the most part I agree with the modern thoughts on the subject. Back then a knife was usually a pocket knife of no particular description.
I've only been lost in the woods once, during a solo deer hunt. I was prepared to spend the night, and had some basic survival stuff, but didn't fare too well, and was glad when the local police finally came out to get me in the middle of the night. One thing I did learn was not to rely on those compact (pocket sized) folding "sleeping bags." Forget about it. Much better off packing a good compact folded tarp. That sleeping bag fell apart on me, and it was pouring down raining. Couldn't light a fire either, since everything was wet. That would have been a miserable night.
One of the most interesting additions to a survival pack I have seen is a common or garden spring rat trap...The guy who showed it me was ex Rhodesian Light Infantry soldier & reckoned it had fed him often while operating in the bush...Depending on how where he set it and what he baited it with, he caught all manner of small critters...He also prefered to use his fishing kit for catching birds...very cruel indeed, but understandable in some of the situations he was in....
Rat trap is an amazing idea. Beats wire snares and dead fall traps.
This is really a great post! I spend my falls hunting in the Northern Maine wilderness areas where the scenario of getting lost and spending the night in the woods is a distinct possibility. Hasn't happened to me yet but it's a great piece of mind to be prepared. I got a lot of good information from this string of posts. There are a few items I will be changing out of my pack and adding to as well. Thanks for taking the time to post this.
My Brother got lost and spent a night in the Maine woods. He said it was Not Fun. He couldn't wait for morning. He fired a shot, and the guys looking for him fired back until he found his way back. He tells me about it over and over again.
I don't go in the woods without a pack, and I have a zip lock with a container of safety matches, a lighter, fire starter cubes, and a space blanket. Regardless of whatever else goes in the bag, that stays in.
I have heard the rule of three's.
3 hours to die from exposure (kind of hard to figure how they came up with that), 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food. I've heard other versions but I know the weather can get me first. My first opportunity, I'm getting a fire going and curling up in a space blanket.
I was hunting in North Carolina during an ice storm, and I was going to be picked up at noon. About 8am, I was freezing and I got down and lit a little fire. You could fit it in a a #10 can, but it made me feel so much better to get down in the brush and lean over a little fire.
Re; Fire paste, please keep the tube in a sealed plastic bag. It can develop a leak and you can find flammable goo all over your "contingency" gear. Ask me how I know this.
"3 hours without shelter and or fire" in an exposed environment, "cold and wet" you can die from hypothermia. Many variables; clothing, general condition, have you eaten, are you hydrated, wind chill, etc. 3 hours, not engraved in stone, it can happen much quicker, or take longer. It comes on insidiously, the first thing to change is your mentation, then your dexterity. You will shiver until you run out of calories (use up your glycogen), and as your core temperature drops, you get sleepy. "If I could just take a nap... Kills more people then any other cause. In fact if you ever talk to SAR folks, they will tell you that whenever they find someone, what ever their other problems might be, they are always cold, dehydrated and hypocaloric (freeking hungry)
Alligator, you nailed it. I did SAR for a few years and boy did that change the way I looked at WHAT I needed to survive. The primary thing a person needs to survive is shelter, not food, not water, not a snare, not a fish line and hook, not even fire (although that is #2). Shelter can take the form of a bivy sack, a poncho, a tarp...whatever. But what ever it is it must be readily deploy-able in bad conditions. Usually, by the time you realize you're in trouble, you are half way to hypothermia and still sitting in the wet cold wind maybe with a broken leg. I carry a homemade Silnylon tarp (4 oz) that I can make into a windproof waterproof shelter in about 30 seconds. I carry homemade matches (you ever try to use a flint or lighter with immobile fingers?) and a homemade fire starter (candle w/saw dust-10 minute burn time) that will give me heat in about another 30 seconds. I also have powerbars that are never used as a routine meal. I also carry a SPOT. The key is to survive for 48 hours, until rescue finds you.
Did I really write "homemade matches"? Opps.I guess I shoulda written Strike on anything Diamond Matches that I waterproof with parafin wax. Just dip the whole thing in and let it dry. I've never had a problem lighting these-ever. Although, I'm looking at the REI type that are strike on anything and have about an inch of sulfur. I've seen the flame and burn on these and they are extremely impressive. The sawdust/parafin firestarters: Melt hard parafin wax, add hard wood saw dust (more like small shavings, not dust). Make mold outta aluminum foil about the size of a finger. Add thick wick the entire length and add wax/sawdust mixture. I get about a 10 minute burn time, and they burn in wind and rain pretty well. Try em and let me know what you think. The tarp is Silnylon 65" wide (it comes that wide on the roll) x 5' with all corners and mid points with sewn in loops.
If at all possible if members could take pic's of their survival kits/gear that they carry in day packs and list suggestions for surviving a night or two or three in wet cold conditions that would be great. Even if you get some time this summer or spring or whenever to actually set up a shelter made from survival tarps blankets etc and post a pic that would be great.
i found these "fire starter squares" in the grocery store by the bbq stuff, you can peel 'em apart or keep them whole (about 1"x1") they are made of wax and sawdust and burn quite a while, i keep four in my pack with two lighters and waterproof matches, i really should eliminate one of the lighters and add a fire steel.
i really should eliminate one of the lighters and add a fire steel.
S.H.S., here is a link to the best fire steels (ferro rods) out there. I have two of his 3/8"x4" Armegeddon fire steels, plus his super scrappers for each one, and they are outstanding. Look on the left side of the page to click on various types.
S.H.S., here is a link to the best fire steels (ferro rods) out there. I have two of his 3/8"x4" Armegeddon fire steels, plus his super scrappers for each one, and they are outstanding. Look on the left side of the page to click on various types.
I would argue those are the best fire steels out there. I bought one, and threw it away. It didnt put out anywhere near the spark that my Swedish Fire Steel did. Swedish Fire Steel
MarkG, I have both the Swedish Fire Steel and the Armegeddon I mentioned. Both -- for me, at least -- throw a tremendous ball of sparks and I've used them both in rainy conditions and snow. I can't tell the difference.
Just an observation, but it was just a test group of 1 so maybe I got a dud... dont know. I do love flint and steel though..just a cool way to get a fire going. I let the kids start fires in our back yard fire pit with them, just a neat skill to have, and they think its fun!
I would agree spomewhat with "me".But ONLY to the extent of finding it hard to understand why so many who venture into the wilderness go so un prepared.
Lets talk survival in the NH � Maine woods which is my normal hunting range. First of all I have been lost many times but never spent a night in the woods alone.
For me the Number One survival gear you can have is the clothes you wear. You can talk about building a fire, building a shelter, catching food ect� But you may not be able to do any of those things with a major injury of some nature.
Wool is number one. Today you can comfortably hunt in 100% Marino wool in any weather conditions. Companies like Minus33 www.Minus33.com (and many others) have complete lines of wool base layer garments. Start with boxer briefs, and good wool sox. Then add the long underwear for the temperate you are hunting in. For winter / cold weather going I use the expedition weight (400 g/m) top and bottom with a second layer of a full zip top. This is easy to open up or remove completely when necessary. There are many 100% wool pant and coat makers. I just bought a light weight pair of First light Gila Pant www.firstlite.com 99% wool 1% rip stop nylon. This is a light weight early fall pant but for later in the year I will move into a 22-24 oz Filson bib type pant. www.filson.com
A good hat and your good to go.
In general I would rather lug a few items to prevent me from getting lost like a good GPS, and a back up compass with map. If I knew I was spending a night in the woods I would lug a real ax. www.Gerber-tools.com Gerber has a nice 1 lb one which I might buy some day.
I have carried a Buck Skinner knife www.buckknives.com for 30+ years. You can probably find some fancy new thing but this is a down to earth basic knife that really holds and edge. In a survival event this guy will take what ever you need it to.
Boar is right. Just this last year a friend of mine became lost and I had to call the police and search and rescue to find him. It was winter, up high, heavy frosts and probably hovering a couple of degrees either side of freezing through the day.Luckily it didnt rain until the second night... There was very little wind which was very lucky also.
The only things that really mattered in this situation were his clothing, and starting a fire. Sadly he had no lighter or matches ! And the bush was dry as a bone the first night. I wasnt even too worried about him, thinking that he would make a great big blaze and be warmer than I was... Ironically he saw a ton of deer....all after he had fired his eight rounds of ammo away signalling...they found him after two days and nights. He said some of things that went on were between him and god.
Alaska is full of bodies of men who fired all their ammo trying to get rescued, or kept it in case of bears, when they should have bulled a bullet with their teeth, dumped the powder on some kindling, chambered the shell, and pointed the barrel at the gunpowder and fired. The spark from the primer would have lit the gunpowder, started a fire, and they would have been warm, and the bears, if there ever were any, would have stayed away.
Mr Walter, I'm not saying I don't beleive you, but I'd have to see you light a fire as you've described before I stop being a tad skeptical.
Lot a good knowledge passed along in this thread. Only "wisdom" I can add is that when the Sun starts to go down and your a long ways from the comforts of home, you'll be much less likely to panic and get yourself into deep sheet if you have practiced how to make fires with little to nothing, and made a shelter or two out of whatever was lying around.
Mr. Walter, my skepticism has more to do with your ability to pull a copper jacketed bullet out of a shell case with not but your teeth.
I've tried igniting smokeless powder in the manor you described and I've not had it work for me. I used 30/06 shell cases, large rifle primers, and charges of IMR smokeless powder poured out onto a pad of dry concrete. Perhaps you have a better method.
I have never tried this myself either but it should be possible.
In trying to reduce what is possible to its bare elements, let's consider the point of the exercise as simply figuring if enough of a spark/flash can be produced out the end of the muzzle of a barrel X inches long using just a primered case. From there, we do not have to confound the question with the inclusion of being able to ignite the actul gunpowder with the flash produced because one only really needs the spark/flash produced by only the primered case to produce a fire anyway. Proper preperation of appropriate tinder material still applies.
Do it in the dark. If there is a significant enough flash then it should work. You could put a cotton ball soaked in vaseline at the end of the muzzle to see if it will take the park and ignite. The question of whether one can pull the bullet is another question and variable altogether. I would actually try the exercise using rimfire ammo from a handgun instead of a centerfire rifle bullet... less expensive. A $3 match? No thanks
BTW, Les Stroud of "Survivorman" fame did it in his artic tundra episode.
I've found space blankets to be more hype than help.
often part of my kit if I've got a full blown backpack on mike
but first we have to define space blanket, those fold up in your pocket thinner than tissue paper are not even as good as TP cause they won't wipe yer azz very well as they're too slick!
but the heavier duty space blankets that weigh 12 oz.+ are pretty good gear.
they insulate from cold ground a bit for one, I always use one under my pad for both insulation, heat reflection and to protect my pad if inflatable. I don't take one sheep hunting as they don't make weight btw. I use a sil nylon poncho instead
they can be used to reflect heat from a fire upon your back, though for the life of me I've never understood why if a guy can build one fire he can't build two and sit between them while feeding them.
and 3 they're a decent emergency shelter, I've used one when caught without raingear (rookie mistake)
my fave has a hood and two pockets to stick your hands in so you can wrap yourself up without being exposed to the elements. but I haven't seen them offered in awhile, so perhaps they quit making them.
where it really comes in handy is wrapping up and putting a candle inside, you can get toasty warm for awhile, which can be a very good thing.
the other thing I like about them if caught in a downpour away from camp, I don raingear and then the space blanket or poncho over my raingear. Only way I know to stay truly dry in a toad choker.
pretty good piece of kit ime, but for me space blankets start with the heavy duty ones, the others are worthless.
for the life of me I've never understood why if a guy can build one fire he can't build two and sit between them while feeding them.
LMAO, I have often wondered the same thing! I guess Resources could be an issue, or even how much work is going into gathering the wood. I guess the main reason would just be, it's just easier to maintain one fire than two. A radiant reflector can do (some of) the work of a second fire with no effort or calories spent.
But if it's cold enough, the wood is readily available, and just for one night. Im with you, Im building 2 Bonfires!!! lol
In artic survival school they told us that as a last resort, build some tinder under the lower branches of a pine tree and light the whole thing up like a torch.
You may start a forest fire, or you may be fined, but at least your widow isn't paying it out of life insurance.
I have never tried this myself either but it should be possible.
In trying to reduce what is possible to its bare elements, let's consider the point of the exercise as simply figuring if enough of a spark/flash can be produced out the end of the muzzle of a barrel X inches long using just a primered case. From there, we do not have to confound the question with the inclusion of being able to ignite the actul gunpowder with the flash produced because one only really needs the spark/flash produced by only the primered case to produce a fire anyway. Proper preperation of appropriate tinder material still applies.
Do it in the dark. If there is a significant enough flash then it should work. You could put a cotton ball soaked in vaseline at the end of the muzzle to see if it will take the park and ignite. The question of whether one can pull the bullet is another question and variable altogether. I would actually try the exercise using rimfire ammo from a handgun instead of a centerfire rifle bullet... less expensive. A $3 match? No thanks
BTW, Les Stroud of "Survivorman" fame did it in his artic tundra episode.
Alukban, have you ever tried to start a fire in this manor? [bleep] Les Stroud! Try it your own dam self and you will learn that smokeless powder is too damn stable for this exercise!
after hunting in wet 6" of snow and having the clouds drop in on us for 100 yard visibility, we decided to make a fire. I picked teh wrong day to lighten my pack and we found out that my buddies new butane torch lighter wind proof thinga magigy sucked over 8,000 feet. It took about an hour to get one going, but we did manage eventually. That fire kept us on the mountain and we finally scored bulls at sunset when the clouds lifted and temp dropped to single digits. I need to re-evaulate my survival gear I carry.
I came late to this tread so forgive me if this is repeat info.
I carry a Jerven bag www.jerven.com the website explains it better than I can. This is wind proof, water proof and warm, weighs about 3.5 pounds, carries rolled up on bottom of Mystery Ranch Big Horn pack until needed. I've used it as on stand in sub-zero weather also as a "blind" during two heavy wet snow events that sent everyone else home whilst I killed several deer, as a bivi-sack over a 0 degree bag, and light weight sleeping bag in suimmer.
Along with the Jerven bag I carry a heavy down jacket and a pair of down pants. Put on the jacket and pants and slide into the Jerven bag, very comfortable to 20 degrees, keep you alive lots lower temps. All I need for summer pack trips, really multi use. I super cold weather I "wear" my sleeping bag.
Survival has 3 areas of concern in reverse order:
3. Food. You can survive several weeks without food. Yes, you may start to feel like crap after a couple of days and you may, depending on your physiology and environmental conditions deteriorate quickly. High fat, high protein will keep you happier(warmer) than granola ever dreamed of.
2. Water. You can die. DIE. From dehydration in a few hours. Three days is about it for most people before you start to go nutz. Keeping hydrated is vastly more important than food. I had dysentary once, as close to death as I ever want to come. A water purification system is paramount to your long term survival. I have two, a ultra-voilet light purifier and a chemical purification system, either will work in cold or dirty conditions.
1. Dry and Warm. Dead in 30 minutes in some conditions just from cold, dead in a few minutes if you're wet and cold. Warm and dry is of paramount importance far outsrtipping either water or food.
The Jerven bag was about $350.00, down jacket and pants about $400.00 how much would you pay to not freeze to death? NEVER under any conditions wear cotton clothes whislt hiking in cold weather conditions. Cotton kills period.
Fire starting: Carry several of those little chemical hand warmer packs. You can't build a fire with frozen fingers, most people will be very cold BEFORE they try to build a fire, cold hands can make that impossible. Lighters. Butane lighters don't work reliabily at elevations over 7000 feet, no kidding, been there, done that. There are little sealed lighters similar to Zippo's, actually use Zippo parts. I've bought them at gun shows. They are sealed and do not dry out even after several YEARS in your pocket. Find them, cost me $8.00, buy several, they work, period. Carry fuel tabs, build your fire over the fuel tab, it will work every time, weight about 1/2 oz, costs a few cents, will save your butt.
When I first got into the guiding business I asked the outfitter I was guiding for if my 44 mag was enough for bear protection, his reply was based on nearly 40 years in the mountains, "Son, it ain't gona be a bear that kills you out here, it'll be a broken ankle. Carry a walking stick, use it."
I ALWAYS HAVE A SET OF THREE SECTION WALKING STICKS. One to walk with all the time and one strapped to my pack. When I carry a bi-pod BOTH sticks are on the pack while I use the bi-pod as a stick. When packing out an animal I strap my rifle to my pack and use both sticks. My best friends nephew is an ex Seal, he thinks I'm an old lady for using the sticks and never used the ones my friend bought him after he slipped and broke his leg. He broke his leg AGAIN this year while hunting. Second time in 5 years, he's a jackass. A prime example of "If you're stupid, I hope you"re tough..." If you are hunting alone this could be fatal in some circumstances. At least, depending on the break, there is a good chance you could loose your foot from complications if you do not get help soon, learned that from an orthopedic MD client. I insisted that my clients use sticks, got lots of crap about it until they fell over and rolled down the mountain a ways. Fortunately, not one every hurt themselves seriously, though we had sereral injuries each season from "know-it-all" "tough guys" that thought we were Girly-men for using sticks. One ass actually asked for a refund because he spent half his trip in camp with a sprained ankle. My reply was ESAD, (eat .... and die) you screwed up, not me.
I did not see this mentioned: Extra fine steel wool and a fresh 9 volt battery kick off a good fire, even in the rain. Put a few vaselined cotton balls on top of the steel wool, touch the battery terminals to the steel wool, and viola! Ignition! I carry this stuff in my hunting vest along with a magnesium block to add shavings to the cotton balls if the weather really stinks or to strike sparks if the battery craps out. Of course I also carry a few parafinned strike anywhere matches for less challenging conditions.
Another firestarter, if you're shotgunning, is to carefully take the powder out of a shell.
I pack this stuff and a few other things in my hunting vest and include a few sheets of folded up paper towel for hygiene and also fire starting.
The striker rod on the magnesium block doesn't work well with stainless steel as in many knives now days. Good sparks take high carbon steel. My solution was to add a 5 inch piece of hacksaw blade to the chain on the block. This produces good sparks. Plan B is to pack along a high carbon knife.
some real good looking rigs on here. i always carry a little survival kit also. main things are protein bars, firestarters, canteen cup, space blanket and various medical supplies. i picked up some good tips from some of the other posts.
I did not see this mentioned: Extra fine steel wool and a fresh 9 volt battery kick off a good fire, even in the rain. Put a few vaselined cotton balls on top of the steel wool, touch the battery terminals to the steel wool, and viola! Ignition! I carry this stuff in my hunting vest along with a magnesium block to add shavings to the cotton balls if the weather really stinks or to strike sparks if the battery craps out. Of course I also carry a few parafinned strike anywhere matches for less challenging conditions.
Another firestarter, if you're shotgunning, is to carefully take the powder out of a shell.
I pack this stuff and a few other things in my hunting vest and include a few sheets of folded up paper towel for hygiene and also fire starting.
The striker rod on the magnesium block doesn't work well with stainless steel as in many knives now days. Good sparks take high carbon steel. My solution was to add a 5 inch piece of hacksaw blade to the chain on the block. This produces good sparks. Plan B is to pack along a high carbon knife.
i had one of the old magnesium bars and got another one from someone but it had a toothed piece of steel for shaving the bar and then striker on the other side.
Great thread, I have posted this on lots of forums and gotten more ideas on what to carry. My lists keeps getting upgraded as I get better or lighter gear. Here are my current lists, the pocket kit, the bag that is always in my daypack, and the items I add for western hunts, bad weather, or coonhunting. These are in addition to my regular hunting gear. I counted GPS, clothes, knife, food, water bottle, etc as hunting gear not survival gear.
Altoids tin pocket kit (4.4oz total) -Reynolds oven bag � (water boiling & storage) -small firesteel & striker -small bic lighter -2 vaseline coated cotton balls -fish hooks 6 small 6 medium -fishing line 30ft 25lb Big Game -repair needle to fit fishing line -15ft green 152lb braided nylon bank line -Leatherman mini (blade, scissors,tweezers, file) -Leatherman mini flashlight (batteries backward, 30hr life) -4 1qt water purification tablets -6 18" 30lb wire fishing leaders (snares)
Full-time daypack kit (2lb 4oz) -spare wool socks -Adventure medical heatsheets bivy the (3.8oz one) -MPI red/silver hooded space blanket 5'x7' (tarp, poncho, or blanket) -compass -bandana (red for signal, pre-filter water etc) -Mammut S-lite headlamp (1 AA lithium battery, 60hr life, 2oz) (this is part of the kit, and in addition to the bigger headlamp I count as hunting gear) -Victorionox trekker knife (decent saw, 4" un-serrated blade, tools) -little whistle from my Bear Grylls knife -fire kit: firesteel, lighter, vaseline coated cotton balls, 2oz bottle coglans fire paste, 4 wetfire cubes -50ft roll 2" duck tape -frontier water filter straw -4 tabs potable aqua -30yds 152lb bank line -15yds 350lb bank line -blank CD (signalling) -little bag with 12 leader snares & 30ft 25lb fishing line, 12 hooks, repair needle) Medical: (stop bleeding, make splints) -quick clot sponge -1 roll hot pink vetwrap (bandaging with duck tape, marking trail, etc) -small tube neosporin -4 3"x3" gauze pads -rubber glove -6 pills immodium -2 pills claritin -1 packet sunscreen -1 packet lip balm -4 safety pins -1 antiseptic towlette
Additional gear for western hunts -Kifaru paratarp with 10 1/2oz aluminum stakes (18.4oz total) -50ft bright yellow paracord -cheap thin silver space blanket (for using as a reflector for fire heat, or for my hunting buddy who didn't bring one) -Snow peak titanium mug (12.9oz total) with: -esbit stove (4 fuel tabs) -2 oatmeal packets -6 tea bags -cut down spork -1ftx2ft aluminum foil folded down - Bic lighter
My survival gear adds up to about 4.5lbs when packing it all, but it's really not much weight when you look at what it includes. The Kifaru paratarp was expensive, but it's sure quick to put up and big enough to have plenty of room to keep me and my gear dry. The stakes add 5oz for it, but are way quicker than trying to cut them if a rain is coming. I also have the larger 9oz SOL thermal bivy or a little 1lb fleece sleeping bag I can stick inside the bivy sacks I can throw in if I feel it's needed. I've stayed out testing my kit at temps right at freezing and have been fine, and that was with a ponch lean to instead of the paratarp. I figure anytime I'm leaving a trail for a long dayhunt I want to have enough gear to spend the night if I decide to hunt until dark, or kill miles from anywhere. I took the fishing and snare kits out for a while, but then I weighed them and threw them back in. They don't take up much room and don't weigh 1.5oz all together. I make sure to test everything before I add it to the pack. I'll also go out to one of our pastures at least a couple times a year with 30-45 minutes of light left and make a quick camp. I feel it's important to be familiar with my gear so I don't waste precious time and energy getting set up to ride out a storm or spend a night out. I know people who carry gear that they have never tried to use and that's not for me.
I've found space blankets to be more hype than help.
They are not big enough to sleep under, but they are light and convenient to carry. I've thought of this and believe that if I needed to use one, I'd find as dry a spot as possible, build a bed of leaves or needles, sit down, curl up and, wrap the blanket around myself. That's probably the best I could do.
2. Water. You can die. DIE. From dehydration in a few hours.
I don't mean to be a jerk, but can you back this up in any way? I don't claim to be an expert, but I've learned a fair amount about survival (13 years on a wilderness SAR team), and about the human body (16 years in EMS...the last 10 of which I've also been a deputy coroner, paramedic school, etc), and this is the first time I've ever heard that statement.
The common phrase is the rule of 3's. 3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter, 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food. Obviously those are gross generalizations. But that said, I've never seen or heard of anyone in my life that died in 3 hours from dehydration. Possibly if they already had some grave underlying medical condition. Even immagining a worse case scenario, dropped out of an airplane into the middle of a desert wearing artic gear, you're still going to die from a heat related illness, not dehydration. Sure, you'll be very dehydrated, but your brain cooking after your hypothalamus shuts down is what will likely kill you, not the lack of water. So I'm just asking for a little background on where you got that info.
Like yourself I've had some experience with SAR and I include the Rule of 3's in a summary article that I wrote regarding wilderness survival. I also agree that it would be pretty difficult for someone to die from dehydratioin in just a few hours. I lived in Phoenix in the late 70's and was on a desert SAR team. It seemed like we spent a lot of time looking for people who had gotten lost on the Yuma bombing range while searching for brass shell casings. We usually didn't even get notified to start looking for them until they had been overdue for at least a day and it took a while to mobilize and get down there. So when we were lucky enough to find them they were on the verge of death, with no pulse, after a couple of days in the desert without water. Even in that extreme environment they didn't die after just a few hours without water.
The Web site says the light works 160 hours on low but I don�t know what they call usable light. All I need do is tie the poncho�s head section closed to fully water proof the shelter.
Sorry I have not really noticed this thread, but it sure would seem to be some required reading for someone who is going out into ANY backcountry whatsoever...
we teach our boy scouts to do this stuff... how to survive a night out in cold wet environments... heck in Oregon, that is what the boys go camping in half the year.. Cold and wet? Oregon supplies a LOT of opportunity for that...
Spent a short 18 months on search and Rescue also...classes going on every Saturday on something...and usually opened to the public, with few attending...
but it does amaze me how little most people know...
for anyone that remembers that Kim Case locally.. the Korean guy who died from exposure up here, after getting his car stuck on a closed forest service road, trying to take a short cut across the mountains...after passing 50 signs saying the road was not maintained in winter... but typical, thought his SAAB would go thru anything since it was from Sweden and front wheel drive...
if the guy would have just walked out on the same road he drove in on, it would have taken him 4 or 5 hours to get help...at most..but not even having that much common sense, ended up killing him...
As above, my first choice in woods tools is the axe, full size felling (1). Second knives. I normally tote a large hatchet (GB small forest) for late spring to early fall and depending on the duration/ deepness/location and lateness/earliness of season, they get bigger.
I recognize this flies in the face of your ligheness philosophy, but it's my choice based on experience and the wisdom of the old ones who plied the north woods where I play.
All that said, my knives are my always carried, primary go to's. My ongoing testing assures my familiarity with my equipment, but more importantly that my equipment works as advertised and for me how/where and as I use it. It's an never ending process. My question is do you ever test your bivy/contingency gear? Have you made a fire, cut shelter poles, battoned with your knife(s)? Do you know for sure that the knives you carry will survive the process? I battoned a 3" dry round with my EDC hollow ground fixed blade, and the edge rolled, ribboned. A large folder, and the pin and the lock's loose. I understand that potentially ruining of an expensive knife can get pricey, but I'd rather know before I REALLY NEED to depend on the knife or anything else I'm staking my or my families life on. Know before you go. Happy journeys.
Battoning is a way of splitting a round of wood by placing the blade of your knife,(or axe) flat against the wood and driving it through with another piece of wood, the baton. This is the primary technique of taking wood down to either expose the dry interior in the case of wet wood, or breaking down a larger piece of wood, in order to make a fire. If you don't have an axe or hatchet, this is the way to use your knife to reduce the dead standing wood you sectioned with your saw (or knee, boot, a convenient rock or tree crotch), down to a size that will burn from the ignition source of a match/lighter or ferro rod. No matter what kind of tinder you carry, you still need to make big sticks small and dry enough to catch.
If you don't have a saw, you can drop and section a tree (3-4") with a knife and a baton (or rock, very abusive to the knife. Use a stick if available). But your knife as your primary survival tool, has to be strong enough in both structure and edge/blade design/ metallurgy, to be able to do what you need to be done and survive.
I have a Dozier Yukon skinner, great knife, sharper then hell, but deeply hollow ground. Great for skinning/taking apart an kill, but I don't imaging it would survive shelter building/ making a fire through battoning.
My question was, did you ever use the knife(s) you carry to take a piece of wood down to thumb size, pencil size, pencil lead size, ribbons, and shavings? Yeah, fat wood/lighter pine, birch bark, pitch, or man made fire paste, magnesium shavings,tryoxine/wet fire,Vaseline cotton, road flares will help, but they won't make a fire out of a log.
Test your stuff and your selves. Prove to your self that your stuff works and you know how to use it. Then do it blindfolded (do you know how to find and use your stuff by feel?). Then do it in the worst conditions you can find, because that's when you will need it.
Hint: you need to be able to get a fire going no matter what, until your in a place that you can't. Then you need to be able to depend on your clothing choices and equipment choices to keep you alive without a fire. Clothing as your first layer of shelter. Recreational equipment as life support equipment, that will save you when your injured and can't move, or sick, or so cold that you can't stop shacking (care to try to flick your bic?). Practice like your life depended on it, and choose your tools and accoutrements accordingly.
I have hunted and wandered around mountain country in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana for over sixty years and have done that very same thing numerous times but just called it "splitting wood."
Proves that most of us never get too old to learn new terminology. Thanks
I just did an archery safety class and a hunter safety class in the last couple weeks. I do the survival part and show everyone what I carry. A guy came up to me after the last class and asked if I was an Eagle Scout. I told him I made it to Life, than I ran out of time. He said it figured judging from all the crap I bring out with me. I'd rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it. I have a small day pack. I bring a lost in the woods kit, packed in a Primus titanium cook pot. Matches, lighter, blast match, fire starters, poncho, space blanket, folding knife, compass, whistle, mirror... I also bring a first aid kit with a Sawyer Extractor (box filled with pills), a Quick Clot trauma pack, band aids, disinfectant wash... That goes everywhere, in the outside pocket of my pack. Anything else goes inside.
I know it has gotten a lot of discussion, but I never carried an ax. A small knife and a Sven saw were (is) all I carry. You can hurt yourself with an ax and bleed out before you can do anything about it. It's much harder to do with a bow saw. There's not much out there I need to cut anyway. I'm snapping off and burning limb wood. I'm not felling trees. Definitely not in an emergency situation. I don't know. I'm pretty comfortable in the woods. I've spent a lot of time camping. It's not a lot different.
First, to each their own. I ain't an expert in anything.
I carry an axe, saw, and knife(s). I try to be able, within limitations, to do with my axe, what I can do with my knifes and vise versa, but there are things an axe can do better then a knife, and a saw is an energy saver. Plus saws make nice flat ends for splitting.
Regards bleeding control; direct pressure, elevation, pressure dressing, pressure point and tourniquet. If your alone and cut yourself that badly with your axe or knife, I'd apply the tourniquet on myself to get a handle on the bleeding, put in the quick clot (or preferably Chitosan), and pack the wound, then apply the pressure dressing over it all. Then release (but don't remove) the tourniquet slooooly, and see. Now'd be a good time to activate wilderness 911(PLB).
FYI: what you just described is part of the raison de tair of what is known as a blowout kit. Military in origin, it is designed for self aid/buddy aid, to treat the treatable things that can kill you before help can get to you. They are; massive extremity bleed, tension pneumothorax, and airway compromise. Not rocket science though It might seem so, any returning vet(THANK YOU!) can teach you how to use it in a day, and it fits in a BDU pants pocket.
I have a GB small forest axe that I carry in my 72hr kit, and a full size axe in each of my trucks. A good axe is priceless for building a natural shelter, fire reflector, and many other outdoor needs. I'd much rather have a 4-5" bladed knife and a 19" handled axe than just a big knife.
That said, I don't see packing an axe on a hunting trip when I don't plan to do any of those things. To my way of thinking a good lightweight tarp or other pre-made shelter is lighter, more waterproof, and takes much less energy than building a natural shelter. I pack my 11oz Kifaru Paratarp in my hunting kit along with 9 aluminum stakes, 50ft of paracord, and 30yds of trotline cord for about 18oz. I figure I can't pack much of an axe or even a heavy knife and sheath for that weight. I pack either my SOG Revolver or Buck crosslock that have small but funtional saws if I need to process small amounts of wood. I also pack a emergency bivy sack for sleeping and a cheap mylar space blanket that can be used as a ground sheet or fire reflector.
I guess if I was planning to head out into the wilderness for long term survival I'd definitely want an axe. I just don't see packing the weight hunting when I already have plenty to carry. The places I have hunted there has always been enough dead wood between dry limbs/trees and dead stuff on the ground to keep a campfire going for a night or two without needing an axe to process wood. I may feel differently if I was hunting somewhere that wasn't the case.
Serious question: What is so special about a Granfors Brucks (sp?) axe? I know they are hand forged and of very good quality, but are they really anymore usefull than a "common" axe? If so, how? I confess that I have never actually seen one, but have read some about them. Are they better than an Estwing or something similar? I do like quality gear and really would like to know. Thanks for the reply.
They are much like any other top quality tool. They hold an edge better and have better balance and a more efficient design than cheaper models due to the angle of the head. I was amazed at how easily mine with the 19" handle felled a tree after using the cheap full-size axes from Orsheln's growing up. Wetterlings axes are cheaper and equal in quality from what I have read since buying mine. The Estwings are good axes too, but heavy. I have read about Estwing handles breaking in very extreme cold situations, but haven't ever seen one or talked to anyone who had it happen. One nice thing about a wood handled axe is that the handle can be replaced easier than on a steel or poly handled design if it would break.
Moral of the story was practice with and test what you carry as "contingency" gear as well as how your hunting gear functions in "contingencies".
I don't hunt where or how you all seam to hunt, based on your posts. I live and play in the north east, different environment, different tactics/game yields different load out. But cold and wet is universal, and dieing from exposure can happen anywhere.
I don't often make brush shelters, as I carry a tarp, polls, pre rigged cordage and pegs. My axe/saw/knife(s), are about making logs into fuel, kindling, and tinder, fire making. I try to be able to make fuzz sticks and shavings with my axe, and make 3-4" sectioned rounds smaller with my knife, in case I should loose or break one or the other. The saw is a one trick pony, but to me, the amount of calories it saves, and it's efficiency, makes it worth carrying.
My posts weren't intended to be about what you or I choose to carry, it was about making certain that what you choose to carry and your practiced skills, would be enough to keep you alive in extremis, in the worst conditions and circumstances possible in the environments you hunt in.
I'm with Rob and prefer a folding saw over an axe for the same reason, you can't hurt yourself as easily or as badly with a handsaw as with a hatchet or axe. In most of the lower 48, a person who is lost in the woods is his/her greatest danger.
While you may be a Brad Angier or a C.B. Colby when it comes to axemanship skills, most people aren't.
I would like to add one more piece of gear for wet country- a pack cover (or waterproof bags in the pack). I was on the Chilkoot Trail in Alaska and just over the Pass into BC after a heavy 20 hour downpour. My outfit got wet including a down sleeping bag. It was the coldest night of my life in a wet bag in a sleet and wet snow storm above treeline. It was the closest I have ever come to freezing to death and the date was Augst 31.
No offense meant or taken alligator, it sounds like wood in your situation is more of an issue than where I hunt. I can find enough dead limbs small enough to gather or drag to a campsite easily enough where I hunt and fish, been doing it for years. Tinder is something I pack, but small twigs and grass for getting the fire started are easy to come by also. If I was dealing with deep snow and needing to gather dry wood off trees I'd want more tools also. For me I can make feather sticks with my knife and the SOG is stout enough to baton so it handles my needs.
You made a good point, know how to use what you carry and carry what you need.
Everybody plays or works in different areas/situations, and has their own experiences/opinions, and preferences. What works for me, may or probably won't work for you. That's why I didn't want to get into equipment.
I'm trying to keep to the spirit of this thread, carry what you choose to carry, what you like, what works for you, just make sure it will work to save your life if it should come to that, and that your practiced enough with it so you can save your own life. Don't assume, don't trust the hype, prove it to yourselves.
Based on the number of hunters and hikers that get found dead every year, I tend to think that perhaps a lack of preparation and forethought might be contributory. Just humbly trying to plant a seed.
Can this Northface footprint tarp be considered as a good packable Bivy shelter that can be used either on the ground or as a tarp tent. This is what I'm considering for emergency usage. Thoughts?
That's most likely just what it says it is. A footprint and nothing more. If you really want a great bivy head over to the classifieds at rokslide.com and make an offer on the ID eVent Bivy. TI Goat has a less exspensive bivy but it's not gonna breathe or protect as well as the ID eVent bivy's will. Worth every penny if you ask me.
I would like to add one more piece of gear for wet country- a pack cover (or waterproof bags in the pack). I was on the Chilkoot Trail in Alaska and just over the Pass into BC after a heavy 20 hour downpour. My outfit got wet including a down sleeping bag. It was the coldest night of my life in a wet bag in a sleet and wet snow storm above treeline. It was the closest I have ever come to freezing to death and the date was Augst 31.
Can this Northface footprint tarp be considered as a good packable Bivy shelter that can be used either on the ground or as a tarp tent. This is what I'm considering for emergency usage. Thoughts?
A little late but just noticed your post. I bought an REI footprint that looked just like the one you mention. Mine is 9'x12' and I picked it up at their parking lot sale for $19.00. It is nothing more nor less than a waterproof flat tarp, a good one if that is what you want. I took off all but the sewn-in loops and have slept under it a dozen times or more from river bottom to sub alpine, in dry summer to wet snow. On a 3 day canoe trip week before last I took it instead of a tent because it is far more compact to haul and the mosquitoes were already gone. Here's a pic from the recent canoe trip. I usually put in more of a center ridge line than shown, but it kept the heavy dew off of us, especially pitched back under heavy overhanging tree foliage.
Good topic. A few years back at the Denver Sportsmen Show one of the seminars was on winter hunting survival presented by a fellow who teaches a survival course at the USAF Academy. What stood out the most was to pack a good balaclava. I don't know where you can buy a proper one that thick enough. I purchased mine at years ago at the same show and it is about 3X as thick as the ones I have seen at Sportsmen and Cabela's.
I read that one this am, & it wore heavily on my heart. I've got some kids that age, & I really feel for the remainder of that family.
Any hike I take finds me with my backpack. With a leatherman, several ignition sources, several tinder sources, emergency blankets, a few hundred calories of emergency food per person, headlamp, first aid kit, etc., I feel like we'll at least have a fighting chance if we're forced to spend a night out.
Most important is what's between a person's ears, and I've picked up much from threads like this one. I pray that this kind of information makes it far & wide, & can help others.
MarcT, Some things are learned by experience. Central Alaska in August seemed like it did not require any serious changes in equipment. I found out different.
I have had several times in my lifewhen Iliterally havedone the survival thing to see how far I could go with it. This entails a small pack, rifle (or pistol) Ponchos(1 to wear, and 1 to use for shelter)and use of small game getting gear and cooking kit. The first few attempts were ata young age, but over the years, I've gained a lot of skill with it. Biggest concern still is the same... WATER.... Yep, finding good source and making sure you survive drinking it. Filtering and even boiling using a condenser pan over the evaporater to drip into the cup works best before filling canteen.... lengthy. Food is where you find it, be it veggy or furry or swimming around. Amazing how good an old Bullhead fish tastes if you are really hungry. my favorite shelter is still the lean-to with the fire in front. really keeps the radiant heat in the shelter and lasts easily the night if you stock-up before retiring. If you want to hear what's in the neighborhood, leave the fire out. Cold camps are just that...bring a good cover of some type along. AVOID ANTHILLS......!
I would totally agree that Alaska has some real weather to contend with. A couple buddies of mine say the same thing, that you PREPARE for night before it gets here, but then, I would imagine with the days as they are.... The time involved in sun setting allows for some prepping... Right?? Using tents with rain-fly's would help. Ground cloth and tarps??
I would totally agree that Alaska has some real weather to contend with. A couple buddies of mine say the same thing, that you PREPARE for night before it gets here, but then, I would imagine with the days as they are.... The time involved in sun setting allows for some prepping... Right?? Using tents with rain-fly's would help. Ground cloth and tarps??
One prepares for the night before it occurs. It's possible afterward, just harder. If a fire is in order, firewood is WAY more easily collected in the daylight than via headlight/flashlight. Something to avoid dew and or precipitation is required, IMO. Everyone has d preferred method - as long as it works!
Where in KS are you Jim? I had to live there in the little apple for 4 years.
Ironbender: I graduated from KSU in education... Ft Hays with Forestry / Biology... I actually preferred Hays,(especially after school...!!) Education was in Vietnam 65-68.. Now I live in a little town called Longford that is 45 minutes west of Manhattan. Spending time now looking for ground to use for camping (me and the little critters). I love the chatter at night until the local coyote walks through and everybody shutsup tight.! Reminds me of the Malay when a tiger walks through at night.. I would imagine a Brown or Grizz has the same effects,except for size and hoping he doesn't like "white meat"..Ha!
When I was stationed at Ft. Riley, Manhattan wasn't an "Army friendly" town, has that changed any?
I used to like to get away from the Manhatan/Junction City area and meet the people who lived in the small towns like Alta Vista, Clay Center, Enterprise, Green, Leonardville, White City, etc.
Seeing as how this thread is about surviving a cold wet night, what do you guys think about that show "Naked and Afraid"?
Or in other words, what would you do if you had to survive a cold and wet and naked night with no modern conveniences?
I've seen this show once or twice and think it's pretty idiotic. Unless the mafia strips you buck naked and drops you in the middle of nowhere, why would anyone be there with absolutely nothing? Very realistic(sarcasm)
Anyway, if you're cold and wet and have nothing, naked or not, you have trouble on your hands.
I've seen that a couple times. There was one episode where the talent was not to bad .. but man I would have hated being with that person for 20 days or so.
Wondering if anyone else "made" up some petroleum soaked cotton balls for this fall?
I got my local "baggie" of soaked cotton balls which I actually prefer over my "straws". Of coarse the straws take up less room and not nearly the mess. But.
I was thinking of a kit, as big or as small as you would like, in a stuff sack that lives in your pack, that if you were sick or injured or in some way constrained, might provide some insurance in a marginal situation.
My version: a can or two of Sterno (also fits your favorite alcohol burner), Vargo Hexagon wood stove, 1qt. cup with cover, or canteen cup with cover, water, your favorite make water taste good, want to drink, provides heat, calories motivational additive (coffee, tea, instant soup, hot coco with marshmallows, etc.), favorite bars, from Metrex to Snickers, (2) heat sheets ((1) as a "tarp", (1) to wrap up in), a candle, a bit of foam pad to insulate my butt from the ground (maybe your pack pad?) and several chemical hand warmers (I carry 12: back of neck(1), arm pits(2), kidney region(2) and groin(1)).
If I'm mobile, theres lots I can do to improve my situation. If I have my pack, better. I carry, on my person, multiple ways to start a fire, and I carry tinder. In my pack, I keep a fire kit, and tools to render burnable wood, but I don't carry fuel wood. If I'm constrained to one place, I have available what's in arms reach, and perhaps, what's in my pack, and my pocket/belt litter.
It provides; shelter heat, hydration, calories, instant fire, and a handy wind screen,that burns twigs, and that protects your incipient fire lay, from wind/precipitation.
In addition to what you may or may not be carrying, to help you get through a cold wet night.
Theres obviously vast differences between the way we hunt and the terrain, and I dont really mean to sound as condescending as I suspect I do above. But you guys should recognise what this kind of country is all about.
Alaska is full of bodies of men who fired all their ammo trying to get rescued, or kept it in case of bears, when they should have bulled a bullet with their teeth, dumped the powder on some kindling, chambered the shell, and pointed the barrel at the gunpowder and fired. The spark from the primer would have lit the gunpowder, started a fire, and they would have been warm, and the bears, if there ever were any, would have stayed away.
Yes I've done this.
Originally Posted by David_Walter
Ah, it's pretty easy to do your self, but I'll do a YouTube video and post it here.
Pull the bullet, pour into a spent case, turn the case with powder face up so the powder is facing the barrel. Surround with kindling, point the barrel a few inches from the case mouth. fire the empty case with the good primer in the chamber. The spark from the primer ignites the powder, the flame ignites the kindling.
The trick is to keep the air blast from the primer ignition from blowing the powder away before you can get a spark to it. And also to have enough powder to ignite, but not to explode.
We did it a few times in Alaska with handguns. I've tried the rifle a few times, but can't get the rifle powder to stay still when I've spilled it out due to the air blast.
None of the “special methods” should be relied upon if you haven’t tried and practiced them adequately beforehand. The best use for gunpowder in fire kindling that I have tried is a heat source from friction to ignite the powder. A shoelace, bow and stick has always worked and done so under some rather nasty windy, wet conditions on several occasions. I have tried rifle firing methods to no avail. I do know that flake powders generally work better for flame-making. The extruded powders sometimes sputter a bit too much to ignite things as easily. Ideal tinder to catch the flame becomes more critical when the powder is less ideal.
Magnesium bar methods are very reliable but they do have a significant learning curve in order to be reliable. I really like them when conditions are wet however. Also, not all magnesium bars are ideal. Coghlans had very good magnesium years ago, but more recently, they seem to be ‘coarser’ in grain structure and do not peel shavings as well.
Theres obviously vast differences between the way we hunt and the terrain, and I dont really mean to sound as condescending as I suspect I do above. But you guys should recognise what this kind of country is all about.
Hey, that's the back of my head.
Yup. I remember that head too. I vaguely remember posting on this thread, they didn't believe that you actually carried your spotting scope up the mountain. LOL
The TIG stove burns longer and puts out more heat. The Kifaru stove is faster to set up and more durable. Also easier to cook on. For camping I use the Kifaru or my homemade stove. But the TIG is the only stove made that can fit in my little E&E and would be a life saver. I am looking at building a front annex for the ponch and a closed off back out of Sil tarp material. This would make me 100% cold proof. All I need do is keep the stove running and it would be clear over 100 inside the shelter at any temp. Or maybe a paratarp and annex butI don't have the money. For maybe 40 bucks in materials and a helping hand from my family I could have a total heated poncho A-frame.
Edit.
The door just slides on the top. I am going to drill some holes inside the door to make it take in air without screwing around with it. My TIG is a test stove so maybe the production model door is a bit better. Bare bones is what this stove is all about. Once I make a way to close off both sides of my poncho and put the pipe though my TIG stove jack the bigger risk would be over heating.
Building a woods wandering kit, based on LBE, pistol belt with pad, suspenders, (2) 1qt.canteens (one stainless)/cup/cover/stove/hexamine and (2) chlorine dioxide tabs duck taped to the back of the bottles, butt pack, knife, side arm/reloads.
In/on the butt pack (some of which is typically attached to me):
Signal: whistle, mirror, MPIL, strobe (lithium and spares).
Comms: cell/ham
Shelter: medium weight merino tops and bottoms, socks, hat gloves, puffy, poncho, wobbie, tarp, hot packs and foam pad to keep at least my butt off the ground.
Nav: compass, GPS/batts, maps, binos, pace beads.
Cordage: 6mm static kern/550/webbing/biners.
Food: varies from stripped MRE, LURP, Gu, bars. snares/fishing.
GB hatchet fits between the butt pack and the belt and a Silky Gomboy fits in the tool pocket of the Duluth or carpenter pants I typically wear if not in my woolies. Headlamp/flashlight, spare batts/light sticks.
To augment what's in my pockets, for an unexpected night(s) out, hunting/fishing or just for a walk in the woods. Add a pack with more better, and usually a shotty with various shells (game/buck/slugs) hunting season or not.
Cool thread, got a lot of great ideas from it. I did notice that a lot of the minimalist type lists don't include a whistle. A lot of packs now have whistles built into the sternum strap buckle but as with fire starting and duct tape, nothing wrong with redundancy. Speaking of duct tape, I wrap a foot or two around all kinds of things (lighter, trekking pole, knife sheath)so there's always some handy. Besides Benadryl it's also about all the first aid kit i carry most of the time. If it can't be fixed with a knife, duct tape, and/or Benadryl it can wait a couple days
Along with the "normal" bits- robust fire kit, first aid, repair stuff, good headlamp/spare batteries, nav items (compass, map, gps)- the stuff that's going to really help me get through an unplanned night out- are:
extra clothing- a good insulating jacket (w/ hood!)- temp/weather dependent on which one, but I like synthetic due to it's ability to handle wet better (than down), particularly Polartec Alpha and Climashield; a fleece balaclava; fleece mitts; spare wool socks and a good shell jacket (again hooded)
sleep system- this won't make for an overly comfortable night in really cold conditions, but will keep me alive
diy climashield quilt- climashield 3.6, quilt weight 15-ish oz SOL bivy- this is their newer one and actually breathes 8-ish oz ccf pad scored to fold up (like a z-pad) 4-ish oz 5x8 sil tarp 8-ish oz
relatively light and very low volume, easily all fit into a 20-ish liter daypack
Along with the "normal" bits- robust fire kit, first aid, repair stuff, good headlamp/spare batteries, nav items (compass, map, gps)- the stuff that's going to really help me get through an unplanned night out- are:
extra clothing- a good insulating jacket (w/ hood!)- temp/weather dependent on which one, but I like synthetic due to it's ability to handle wet better (than down), particularly Polartec Alpha and Climashield; a fleece balaclava; fleece mitts; spare wool socks and a good shell jacket (again hooded)
sleep system- this won't make for an overly comfortable night in really cold conditions, but will keep me alive
diy climashield quilt- climashield 3.6, quilt weight 15-ish oz SOL bivy- this is their newer one and actually breathes 8-ish oz ccf pad scored to fold up (like a z-pad) 4-ish oz 5x8 sil tarp 8-ish oz
relatively light and very low volume, easily all fit into a 20-ish liter daypack
Kudus on your choice of gear. I like it enough that I checked on the breathable SOL bivy-- and it is not available on the SOL site nor any of the Amazon sources I checked. Wonder what's up with that? More demand than they can supply or did they pull the product?
It's called the Escape bivy (they also have an Escape Lite, not as robust) I know REI carries it, probably Amazon too. Shop around as the price can vary.
Dunno what was up but when I first looked up the Escape breathable, every source on Amazon and the SOL site itself said that it was not available and not sure when it would be. The next day, all but the SOL site had it for sale.
Thanks for the tip. I bought one at Cabela's today and it will be in my daypack when hunting tomorrow. I've spent a fair number of unplanned/impromptu nights out without sleeping bag etc. and this item should improve the experience.
I haven't read all the way through this thread so my comments may have been covered. A woodsman who had been in that situation a few times gave me some pretty good advive. He said to find the thickest or most shelteres area you can (wind protectin and an evergreen canopy) and stay on your feet.
It sounds odd but you can regulate your temperature much better on your feet. Running in place, some squats, etc. will raise your temperature. If you get stuck without a tarp, bag and stove, keep it in mind. Your body will want to lag down but it will sap your heat.
As long as it's from fabric thats not treated with fire retardant......
Pure cotton balls are better than dryer lint.
I did a test on pure cotton balls vs dryer lint, both coated equally in a Vaseline/paraffin mix. The cotton balls ignited quicker and burned better. It probably depends on what fabric the lint came from. Pure cotton balls are consistent.
That's what I carry, in an old film canister. It's funny when i break that out to show the hunter ed classes, I have to explain what a "film canister" is to the kids.
This thread has been around over ten years. Technology has changed enough that in looking over my early posts, I carry a few different items now.
One change is that my primary fire starter has become the ferro rod and steel. Backups are piezo electric lighter and waterproof matches.
Another change is that I carry a DeLorme InReach satellite communicator.
A non tech change is that I now make my own fire starter “cookies” out of pitchwood/fatwood sawdust in a Vaseline/paraffin mix as binding agent, with a greased cotton ball on top. Each cookie goes in a little jewelry sized ziploc.
What changes am I forgetting? Tips re new stuff to update this thread?
I ain't no boy scout, and I still say that these are the best damn fire starters out there. 5 bucks for a 3 pack. Guaranteed 15 minutes of high quality flame, in any weather.
I carry a small metal whiskey flask full of diesel when I pack back into the wilderness. That will always get a number of fires going,even with wet wood. Every good boy scout should have one.
I don’t think I’ve shared it here, but I had one very cold, wet and nasty night that was completely turned around with a Seek outside BCS and an EDT Ti stove. In about 15 min things went from total [bleep] to comfort. If it’s the time of year it can get cold in the mountains I will have those items with me. As for fire starter, surplus Trioxane bars are awesome! I wouldn’t dream of other Mickey Mouse solutions. They are light, nicely packaged and burn great,
I’ve always carried a robust fire kit, but the last couple of years I’ve bit the bullet and carry a bivy, lightweight quilt, short pad and small tarp- probably under 2 pounds of insurance
I'm curious if anyone has designed a better lighter for fire starting yet? I've become pretty proficient with the various firesteel and striker type, but an easy flame is a handy and beautiful thing for many activities.
My big bitch with the bic lighter is that your thumb is practically in the flame when it is lit. It's just not a lighter to hold a flame for 20 seconds. I have and use a zippo, but am not fond of it. It runs out of fuel when you need it and if you overfill it and keep it in your pocket it will burn you with raw fuel. Keep it with your food and the fumes will contaminate your chow.
A piezo bic with a stand off striker and fuel control (maybe a half inch below the flame?) would be better.
And I know a guy can always get by with something. A vaseline/cotton ball lights easily enough with the bic and can be handled with a leatherman or impaled on a small stick.
Bottom line: I want a better lighter. Butane fueled, stand off controls for extended burn time, and maybe refillable...
personally I put more stock in what is going to be ignited- the LiveFire tins ignite easily with just about anything- lighter, firesteel, sparklight- AND they burn hot and steady for 15 minutes- even in very poor conditions, I can get a fire going
I'm curious if anyone has designed a better lighter for fire starting yet? I've become pretty proficient with the various firesteel and striker type, but an easy flame is a handy and beautiful thing for many activities.
My big bitch with the bic lighter is that your thumb is practically in the flame when it is lit. It's just not a lighter to hold a flame for 20 seconds. I have and use a zippo, but am not fond of it. It runs out of fuel when you need it and if you overfill it and keep it in your pocket it will burn you with raw fuel. Keep it with your food and the fumes will contaminate your chow.
A piezo bic with a stand off striker and fuel control (maybe a half inch below the flame?) would be better.
And I know a guy can always get by with something. A vaseline/cotton ball lights easily enough with the bic and can be handled with a leatherman or impaled on a small stick.
Bottom line: I want a better lighter. Butane fueled, stand off controls for extended burn time, and maybe refillable...
What is out there that is reliable and worthy???
John- I've found piezo lighters at a local tobacco/cigarette shop. In addition to what you've described. when my hands are cold and wet spinning a striker wheel and pushing on the gas valve can be difficult. Piezo takes that first step out. The lighters I've found are good, but tend to not be particularly durable for for than a few trips.
Picked up a four nozzle piezo butane torch from buylighters.com that went on sale for less than $7, now back to 9.95 Idea was to speed up the heating of the fuel line on an MSR Universal when using liquid fuel to minimize the "ball of flame" when starting. Intense two inch flame that *likely* would start even damp or wet small tinder on fire if needed or at least make some small coals. Drawback on the quad burner is length of time flame could be maintained. Am getting 4 or five 20 sec burns on full flame.
Also have a couple of others that are single flame "torches" where longer burn time is obviously available.
I carry and wear a 911 Card. It is laminated and I wear it around my neck. If I am unresponsive, medical personnel, rescue etc, can see the following
My Name, a contact number, my blood type, my medications, what I am allergic to, and any thing you might want to add. I talked to an air/rescue guy and he thought it was a great idea.........
just my tip to add,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I also love this post site
I did a search, but no response, so, do you guys know about Wiggys? Unaffected by compression forever, or water. His "liners" same characteristics as his bags, because their made of the same stuff. Vest 3oz, liner jacket 3oz so combined 6oz.ish. Add his 6oz liner, with his fishnets, and per him, good to around -50. I'm putting together an EDC ruck, with the above, and one of his summer weight Freedom bags (40 degree bag, good for 30 degrees if not 20), but the liners, mix and match, but good to -50 without the bag!, Add pad and tarp... His clothes prevent hypothermia, and the liners and bag can be used to treat hypothermia, with what's in your ruck already.
Trust but verify: Most peoples worst case scenario, your wet and your bags wet, Me dressed in nose to toes cotton, an ice cold shower with a 0 degree Wiggys bag. When both of us were adequately saturated, outside to the driveway, 33-35 degrees with intermittent 10-15 MPH wind. Early stages of hypothermia (mumbles, stumbles, fumbles), did the best I could to roll the bag to remove most of the water, and got in. Liner warmed quickly and I fell asleep. Surplus Mil closed cell foam pad. Was awoken by "snain", burrowed deeper into the bag. Woke up in the morning, I was dry and so was the bag. , Unaffected by max compression, unaffected by water, and without exception in my experience, good for 10-20 degrees lower then his rating. No other bag will do this. Use what yous like, replicate my test, see what happens (but do so someplace you can bail from :)). I wont use anything else. Save weight elsewhere. Lifetime guarantee. (www.wiggys.com)
His Freedom Shelters and bags are per person on all US Army aircraft, his bags are vacuum sealed in ejection seats in Alaska as is his "walking sleeping bag" (with mittens and mukluks), his hypothermia bag has US and Canadian NSN's, and his B-52 survival system is on... Life Support Equipment under the guise of recreational gear.
Considering the seeming "randomness" of events, and the fact that with his bag, a GOOD pad, a tarp, water and peanut butter (rapid burn calories and slow burn fats), you've just done about everything you can to stock the odds in your favor. There are folk that say and I absolutely agree, your sleeping bag, is the single most important piece of your survival. Choose wisely.
The summer weight Freedom bag was a considered decision, less insulation compresses smaller. All his stuff is good for 10-20 degrees below his rating, and his Freedom bag can be used as a coat, poncho liner or blanket. The liners when combined are purportedly good to around -50. Now add the bag if necessary.
I'm out of work sick, sitting here typing, probably have a fever, thermostat set 68-70, I'm cold, so I have his "sweater" on. 3oz. Lamalite, good to about 20 degrees, and I'm comfortable. It's all about the unimpeded passage of water vapor.
Max compression ( he don't sell storage bags) forever, without loss of loft, bomb proof construction and zippers, no loss of function when wet. No where else. Life Support Gear.
His Freedom Shelters and bags are per person on all US Army aircraft, his bags are vacuum sealed in ejection seats in Alaska as is his "walking sleeping bag" (with mittens and mukluks), his hypothermia bag has US and Canadian NSN's, and his B-52 survival system is on... Life Support Equipment under the guise of recreational gear.
Considering the seeming "randomness" of events, and the fact that with his bag, a GOOD pad, a tarp, water and peanut butter (rapid burn calories and slow burn fats), you've just done about everything you can to stock the odds in your favor. There are folk that say and I absolutely agree, your sleeping bag, is the single most important piece of your survival. Choose wisely.
The summer weight Freedom bag was a considered decision, less insulation compresses smaller. All his stuff is good for 10-20 degrees below his rating, and his Freedom bag can be used as a coat, poncho liner or blanket. The liners when combined are purportedly good to around -50. Now add the bag if necessary.
I'm out of work sick, sitting here typing, probably have a fever, thermostat set 68-70, I'm cold, so I have his "sweater" on. 3oz. Lamalite, good to about 20 degrees, and I'm comfortable. It's all about the unimpeded passage of water vapor.
Max compression ( he don't sell storage bags) forever, without loss of loft, bomb proof construction and zippers, no loss of function when wet. No where else. Life Support Gear.
Regards, Jim
10-20 degrees below rating? That’s a laugh. Is your name Jerry by chance? Jerry doesn’t does not stand behind his warranty.
I like quite a bit of Wiggy stuff. But I"m with Beanman... ratings are not what they are for ME. And certainly for others I know, in Alaska, they don't quite hold to the ratings comfortably. Alive yes. Comfortable no. But definitely not below the ratings,.
No, my names Jim. I'm just a very satisfied Wiggys customer. I will say, there is too much variance in peoples cold tolerance, to make a blanket statement that a given product will keep everyone warm at X temperature. Buying the layers allows the mix and match for given conditions/activities. As always, use what works for you.
I'll add, as above, Wiggys is the only bag that I'm aware of that you can use when your wet and it's wet, and be warm, as proven by me to me. That is a potentially life saving quality.
I'll add, as above, Wiggys is the only bag that I'm aware of that you can use when your wet and it's wet, and be warm, as proven by me to me. That is a potentially life saving quality.
As always, use what works for yous.
True. About anytime of year, wool will retain heat even when wet. Even in the summer hypothermia can happen with a storm. Two items to stay warm and dry are what Im wearing now on this chilly summer morning....a wool shirt. For dry, I recommend a light tarp with cord. Sticks and tress can be the tieouts. That increases pack weight to a pound or two more, but it's the most common emergency need in my experience.
Just my .02c for Eastern woodlands in the three seasons. There are some very good points made from both sides of the wool vs. synthetic debate. Whatever one decides to choose, it should work for them.
That might be an oversimplified statement, but there are too many variables to say this is better than that, in ALL environments. There's too much difference between seasons and from Alaska to Texas. I will wear wool early spring and mid fall through winter, but most don't wear it in the summer. Can you die of hypothermia in the summer? Yes.
The other point when I was on a mountain when no rain was in the forecast reminded me of something. A storm moved in and I was far from shelter. I brought plenty of provisions, but didn't consider a tarp or poncho. The storm changed suddenly at the last moment right after I asked the Lord for help. It was a close call.
I'll add, as above, Wiggys is the only bag that I'm aware of that you can use when your wet and it's wet, and be warm, as proven by me to me. That is a potentially life saving quality.
As always, use what works for yous.
Have heard great things on the Kifaru Slick Bag. Weights less than the wiggys but reports are stellar in that situation. Maybe I'm wrong? I am in the market for a Slick Bag....
It is light and warm, but being a mummy bag it isn't too comfortable nor roomy and the material while water proof, gets "sticky" on your arms or other skin that touches it when wet. It is difficult to explain but it drives me nuts. If there's condensation and such inside the tent from wet boots/wet cloths it gets to be an uncomfortable time. Other than that, it is a very high quality and well thought out bag.
A 9-volt battery momentarily touched to 0000 steel wool will light a fire quicker than just about anything. A pinch mashed in a paraffin soaked cotton ball is even better yet!
Some interesting points here. Thought I'd add my $0.02. Butane lighters, piezo or otherwise do not work at high altitudes. Best lighter for altitude I've found is a Zippo. Not sure what the attraction is with the gooey cotton balls; they're messy and get smooshed into greasy balls. I pack Esbit Solid Fuel tabs, a beeswax candle, and chunks for fireplace starter (looks like a fake log). I have a ferro rod too, but damn if that's my first option. If I need a fire, I NEED a fire. I'm not practicing some bushcraft bow drill, ferro rod, when I have instant means. The road flares are a good option IMO, if the weight isn't an issue.
I'm of the Nessmuk Trio mentality with the sharp things. Hatchet for chopping, fixed blade for big cutting chores, small folder for fine work. If weight is an issue I'll leave the axe or fixed blade at camp, depending on my needs. Yes, axes are dangerous, so is the gun you are carrying, the trees you climb over, and the lightning in the sky. Slip and falls account for a lot more injuries than camping hatchets.
I have a Katadyn water filter that's awesome with a pack of chlorine tablets just in case. The filter is fast and easy and the water tastes amazing; it's a trade off for more weight and space.
My shelter is a 8x10 plastic tarp. I've used it once, along with the axe. And it both were probably a life saver that day.
Biggest thing for me is weight. I don't want a bunch of REI and Cabelas pseudo survival gimmicks in my pack.
I've had butane lighters just lock up and not work but when a buddy of mine dumped a water bottle full of water, a Vaseline soaked cotton ball and his ferro rod onto the ground and with two strikes had the cotton ball burning for 15 minutes, I was convinced.
Along with the "normal" bits- robust fire kit, first aid, repair stuff, good headlamp/spare batteries, nav items (compass, map, gps)- the stuff that's going to really help me get through an unplanned night out- are:
extra clothing- a good insulating jacket (w/ hood!)- temp/weather dependent on which one, but I like synthetic due to it's ability to handle wet better (than down), particularly Polartec Alpha and Climashield; a fleece balaclava; fleece mitts; spare wool socks and a good shell jacket (again hooded)
sleep system- this won't make for an overly comfortable night in really cold conditions, but will keep me alive
diy climashield quilt- climashield 3.6, quilt weight 15-ish oz SOL bivy- this is their newer one and actually breathes 8-ish oz ccf pad scored to fold up (like a z-pad) 4-ish oz 5x8 sil tarp 8-ish oz
relatively light and very low volume, easily all fit into a 20-ish liter daypack
Going to update my post from 6 years ago as I've changed a few things.
Still carry the normal stuff I listed in the first line. My fire kit remains pretty much unchanged- it's robust as getting a good fire going is really going to increase the comfort on an unexpected night out. My first aid kit is a little more robust to handle bleeding incidents better. I've added a Garmin inReach Mini and basically don't leave home without it. Satellite communication is one of things there really is no reason not to be without if spending time in remote areas.
One big change is I rarely hunt with a daypack any more; I've instead gone to carrying my frame (SG Krux) with a 50-ish liter bag. I can get one full load of meat out without hiking back to the truck. I tried smaller bags with my frame, but the 50 liter bag cinches down about as small as the smaller ones and isn't much heavier. It also allows me more volume to carry a few more things that would make a unexpected night out a little more tolerable.
I carry a Mountain Laurel Designs Spirit Apex quilt. It has a "poncho" hole so I can use it when glassing wearing it over the top of me if needed. I've found this to be great way to increase the time glassing in very cold weather. It also gives me another emergency insulating layer.
I carry a different bivy now. It's a custom bivy made my Nunatak, insulated with Apex and highly wind/water resistant.
I use a heavier (but higher r value) pad- a cut down Thermarest z pad (50" long)
I still carry a sil tarp, but a larger one. I found the 5x8' tarp a little too small when glassing in crappy conditions, the new one is 7x9' 12 oz vs 8 oz, but much better coverage.
Still carry a heavier insulated jacket, but also carry insulated pants now too (Apex insulated like the jacket).
A little more weight and a little more volume, but better prepped for a night out
I've done some extensive testing with cotton balls, cotton pads, vasiline, and candle wax! Been working on it off and on for two years now!
My final conclusions have been that cotton pads dipped in wax only will light with a Ferro rod in every condition faster than any other variant I have tried
I've tried vasoline only, vasiline with wax for the outside coating, vasiline and wax melted together, and dipped in wax only.
I have compared in different elevations, temps, raining, snowing, wet, dry, and submerged in water first
Burn time is around 12 minutes
The pads that I've been useing are the "Equate premium cotton rounds" sold at your local Wal-Mart. Pads fit inside a pellet tin for pellet rifles perfectly. 5 or 6 pads to a tin. Just my 02
FYI......lets the pads soak until thourally saturated
I agree with David_Walter that this thread is a classic and has lot of info - and the info added by Trystan is yet anther example of this!
Many years ago I took a winter survival course, and one thing I remember is that for the "make a fire" section of the course, participants had to hold their hands in a bucket filled with water and ice - and then make a fire.
I forget how many minutes this had to be - but at the time is seemed like a bloody long while!
Of course many here are from fairly warm climes and having hands chilled in ice isn't particularly relevant.
I will just note, however, that many of the fire-making methods mentioned in this thread are just not practical with extremely cold,numb hands (e.g. 9 volt battery + steel wool, matches (dipped in wax or not, you can't hold the bloody things properly when you can't feel your hands, Bic, Zippo or Ronson lighters - very difficult to get the wheel to spin and create sparks).
I recall that one of the participants on the winter survival course had a LARGE, piezo-electric cigar lighter that almost everybody in the course could use effectively after the ice bucket hand treatment.
I also recall that participants had lots of different fire steels (ferro rods) and that there were big differences both in the ferro rods, and their strikers. The Swedish Firesteel put out a LOT of sparks LINK to Light My Fire USA
Winter (early Spring/late Fall) in addition to a large fire steel and Bic (actually two Bics- one in my pocket, one in my pack), I carry a small flare- this is is about a bombproof way of starting a fire as there is
Just ordered a bunch for myself my son and a couple hunting buddies for Christmas. Hell I get cold fishing and this would be a quick easy way to get a fire going stream side.....
I just watched a video where a guy used twine as burn material to get a fire going unraveled the twin and damn if it didn't take off with a soaked cotton ball underneath struck with a ferro rod!!!
When I went through arctic survival school at Eielson AFB, AK, it was -42* on day two of the sleep out.
The NCOs beat into our heads “three methods of fire starting” and I still follow that philosophy.
Tinder sticks or fire starter goop or Vaseline balls, Swedish fire sticks, bic lighters (stashed close to the body so they stay warm and work well), and matches.
The only wrong way is just taking one way.
Everything either breaks or gets lost when you need it most. One is none, two is one, and all that.
When I went through arctic survival school at Eielson AFB, AK, it was -42* on day two of the sleep out.
The NCOs beat into our heads “three methods of fire starting” and I still follow that philosophy.
Tinder sticks or fire starter goop or Vaseline balls, Swedish fire sticks, bic lighters (stashed close to the body so they stay warm and work well), and matches.
The only wrong way is just taking one way.
Everything either breaks or gets lost when you need it most. One is none, two is one, and all that.
Winter (early Spring/late Fall) in addition to a large fire steel and Bic (actually two Bics- one in my pocket, one in my pack), I carry a small flare- this is is about a bombproof way of starting a fire as there is
Fire in the winter for an unexpected night out is not optional
Thanks for the link to the small flairs! I've been packing a full sized road flair....Lol
David Walters, I absolutely agree with the three ways to start a fire. I also feel that one of those ways should be reserved for a guaranteed easy start such as the fire starting flair mtwarden referenced.
I got to spend an unexpected night on the mountain, sheep hunting this year in Alaska. BUT I was semi prepared for such a thing. We ditched all of our camp gear, big optics, etc to make a stalk on two good rams. It was ~ 4:00 PM. The stalk took longer than expected- loots of [bleep] rock to sidehill and then a spot we had to lose a bunch (and then regain) elevation for fear of being see. THEN when we finally made the stalk to where they were bedded- they weren't there! We'd back off, get further down the ridge- creep up and nothing. After the fourth (or fifth) time of doing it, when finally spotted them. They had moved much further down into the bowl they were previously above. After making the shot it took us 20-30 minutes to get to the ram.
We got some pics and then got to business caping and coming meat. By the time we were done it was a little after 9:00 PM- we had about an hour of light left and at least two hours of hiking to get to our packs. With the rather treacherous rock we had to negotiate and the heavier packs, the guide thought it would be best to say on the mountain.
The guide had warm clothing, but nothing else. I had puffy pants and a puffy jacket, but also an insulated hat and booties (about 2-3 oz for both). I also had a 20x50" section of Z-Lite pad to insulate underneath me. AND an emergency bivy to crawl into.
I won't lie, I was pretty cold, but managed a little sleep. The guide FROZE! He ended curled up the sheep cape
We well above treeline, so nothing in the way for fire (which certainly would have been nice).
The good news is it gets light early, so only about 5 hours of suffering (less suffering for me!)
Anyways the guide said he'd be making a few changes
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), and on a recent hunt in the Sonoran desert, I wore some regular cotton underwear.![[Linked Image]](http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee175/redmtn/Beale.jpg)
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